Update a year later. I don't scale db any more however I have gotten better at logic. A lot of the things I said were more than likely incoherent. I did not understand logic, time, speed, and ap at the level I do now. Some of the speed tiers mentioned are more than likely incoherent along with my ap scaling. This is the Original vid (I was bad at YT back then) ua-cam.com/video/_fYmojGdh4k/v-deo.html I am open to changing my opinion on this and here are some things I said that are wrong. 1. I said there are only 2 ways of looking at Goku moving in time skip and there are a lot more than 2 ways. For example, Goku's ki could be making him immune to hax. Goku could be overpowering a pseudo time made by hit (Not actual time). 2. Immeasurable speed characters do not have to be able to freely move through time they can be limited to only backward or forwards. There is probably a lot more feel free to point them out.
Another thing you may want to take a look at is how Goku was casually existing and moving in a place of absolute nothing when he returned to grab Future Zeno. This isn't just a feat of Goku in base casually moving without the need of time or distance but also shrugging off the lack of even concept, reality, and literally everything.
@@menacingpotatoleaf Yeah I mentioned that in my original vid but forgot until u brang it up because it only happened conclusively in the manga. But we only have reason to believe in the manga time was erased. Not concepts such as speed. But if you wanted to argue it I made a wank goku vid that has scp 3812 vs goku lmao. (spoiler goku wins)
@@NotOptimized Nah it happened Anime as well. And the universe is completely erased time line and everything that ever made up existence like concepts are gone.
@@menacingpotatoleaf where is this stated in the Manga the time ring was deleted but in the anime there was just them in a void no reason to believe concepts or even space time is gone.
@@NotOptimized This had nothing to do with the time ring, this was when Goku and Trunks went a grabbed future zeno whom was still floating around absolute nothingness due to him wiping literally all forms of universal constructs within the time line leaving a blank pace in the flow of time itself. This was a quick moment that was glossed over other then Beerus angry Goku did that and went back there as well as him being upset there is 2 zenos now.
You've got no idea how thankful I am that you've made this video. Many times I've been stuck in debates about Goku's speed feats, and whether or not he even has some form of immeasurable speed. I'll be sourcing this video a lot more in the future👍 Also, I had no idea "irrelevant speed" was a thing until now, thanks for the info.
Vegeta and nappa taking longer to get to earth is because it’s shown that they were on a different planet when they made their way to earth and it’s implied they made multiple stops on planets on their way
King kai verbatim says that Goku was "forcing his way into the future" when he fought hit so yeah I can see some limited form of immeasurable speed for Goku's combat speed.
6:34 if goku can travel to the future by raw movement, then it's painfully obvious it's immeasurable speed by 0.1s he just moved throught non linear time for 0.1s
I'd say he has inaccessible-immeasurable- irrelevant speed depending on how you scals the verse. For immeasurable speed you can use the time skip argument. For inaccessible/irrelevant speed you'd have ro scale the verse. Since the afterlife doesn't have time or space it'd mean Goku is atleast inaccessible. There are also statements that could scale the afterlife to outer meaning Goku would have irrelevant speed.
Goku having Inaccessible speed is a Little highbally but i can see it being the case only in the anime For some reason Toyotaro loves to Downplay the anime feats in the manga. Hes said characters would blow up galaxies when in the first arc of dbs beerus and goku threatened the entire macrocosm lol
Vados literally states that Jiren possess power that TRANSCENDS time ITSELF, and I’ve seen people arguing against this. They say “oh it’s in context to Jiren overpowering Hit’s ability by just pure strength” first of all Vados is an angel and since angels can time travel, meaning she knows about it. She also explained the time skip during Goku’s second fight with Hit, so therefore we can use this state as an evidence. Second of all, Vados literally said that Jiren’s power TRANSCENDS time ITSELF, that would mean Hit was literally using TIME on that time cage attack on Jiren. And Jiren was literally breaking out of it, meaning he was breaking out of time ITSELF. And for those who use manga to say “oh but whis said Hit’s ability only works on weak opponents” Anime and Manga are still two different canons of the same series.
@@markforge4081 I think u r getting it wrong u haven't really watched TOP and the main comment already explained what hit did and what happened. Jiren doesn't transcendent time as in him above time. What vados is saying is that his power is above time haxs.
We live in the year 2024 and people are still using this nonsense argument about Dyspo at the speed of light. The ridiculous thing about this topic is that I, the Dashnikan, was just saying that to clarify how fast Dyspo the xeno is because of his ignorance of the level of speed. No character commented that he was at the speed of light, and even Frieza told him that your high speed would not Would it be of any benefit to me? He did not say that his speed is faster than light Lmao LoL
@@NotOptimized Why is it literally the reality when we live in the year 2024 and most of the Dragon Ball haters still use Despop at the speed of light? This argument literally denies everything they say Of course, I am not referring to you personally, my friend, but only to respond to the Dragon Ball haters, because it is literally a ridiculous argument.
@@polk-tr7uv Well the ways that I see to debunk the light speed statement are going to fall under 2 categories. 1. As you said a contradiction 2. Showing that the statement is unreliable to show they cap at light speed. For 2 you can argue what you said or you can argue a mistranslation. You can also argue that it's just a major understatement that does not entail anything.
@@NotOptimized I see a response to these two arguments, the argument of Zeno's ignorance of the extent of this speed, as I presented it in the main comment, and the second argument I say is a mistake in the translation because literally you know the introductory posters in which pictures of the characters appear represent the poster that appeared Jiren, who mentioned that he surpasses the rulers of destruction from myself, this type of posters I have seen. Special for Dyspo, it was stated that he had reached a great level of speed, and the poster did not mention anything about the speed of light or sound. It was said in the poster that it was a great and tremendous speed that makes the strongest characters, such as Gohan and Frieza, suffer against it.
Doesn't suppressed Beerus feat of nullifying the super energy sphere before it's explosion destroys all of universe 7 in BOG quantify for infinite reaction speed?
Think of a bomb if its about to blow up and you disarm it do you scale to the reaction speed of what it would take to dodge the shrapnel from the bomb? The simple answer no. But if the bomb went off and you place a barrier around it yes. It depends on how you interpret what he did. I think animation wise its implied it went off so that's what I would go with. Im lookin at the anime tho so idk about BOG. In the anime the orb is implied to be universal and in the dub its stated that it will destroy everything.
I feel like this doesn’t make sense? The humans can move in the void so are the infinite speed ? What does infinite speed mean? If he is that fast shouldn’t he be able to be untouchable? So he would win every fight easy? And the battle of the gods punch was a shockwave which is power (strength + SPEED) so couldn’t he just be really fricken strong so it would make that shockwave ?
@@surgeweirdo1464 1. I'm not sure if I made that argument in the video if I did that's not a valid argument. Being in the WOV does not entail infinite speed. 2. Infinite speed simply means being able to travel an infinite distance in finite time. You could go faster or simply just make speed be useless with some Hax to get around it. 3. I don't really abide by the shockwave argument anymore however it can still be argued. The argument goes that Goku scales in speed to his shock wave. The shock wave traveled an infinite distance in finite time. The shock wave has infinite speed thereby Goku has infinite speed. The issue is assuming Goku scales in speed to the shock wave. It is debatable, and I personally don't use it anymore since I think the mechanics of the shock wave are unknown.
@@NotOptimized wow, thanks for replying that's actually pretty cool. but isn't the arena a Finite distance? (haven't watched the anime in a while so don't remember what exactly what happened)
First universes vary in size and creating one is not the same as destroying one, we might be able to create a universe. But if a character were to create everything individually all at once they would just be universal level in power but universal varies a lot. Not a lot of people in the scaling community even use force(Joules/TNT) at this point because we don't exactly know how it would apply at that scale or if it would be too big of a number. Some universes can have multiple spatial dimensions which would grant the person creating/destroying even more power. Here is a vid going more in-depth into the terms people use ua-cam.com/video/P-CLBU6iwTk/v-deo.html I hope this helped and feel free to ask any questions even not related to the vid.
Goku has irrelevant speed LMFAO,check officialdripsauce videos where he explains things why Goku isn't bounded by time,why DB cosmology goes up to high outer and above,and why he is irrelevant speed and the likes,just watch his videos,all these low multi and mftl are outdated scales even Z Goku is 5d and immeasurable speed
I looked at some of his vids and they seem like pretty solid scales I would need to look into it a bit more and formulate my thoughts before jumping to a conclusion tho.
@@NotOptimized yeah you can talk with him on discord ,that guy pretty good.he debunked everything that people use to say Goku isn't outerversal,it's a pity not many people know his scale
Goku has Irrelevant speed. The waves that Goku was sending in his fight against Beerus reached the afterlife, which is outerversal structure , which was mentioned in the Daisencho that it is heaven, transending dimensions, and it was mentioned in several sources in the games Guide and Data Book, which are official source and Canon to the anime and manga, that it is a place where the concept of time and space does not exist. That's why Goku has Irrelevant Speed.
Depends on the definition of center. If the definition of the center of sphere is a point with a circle that is equidistant from the edges then yes ever where (except places that are infinitesimally a fraction of the universe away from the edges) would be the center. Infinity gets really weird. For example being 1,000,000,000 light years away from the edge would be an infinitesimal of the universe. Any thing that is not infinitely away from the edge would not be the center. I prob explained this horribly but infinity is an annoying concept to grasp.
U can also move in stoped time if u have resistance to time manipulation feats like this with now statement to prove they r moving in time with sheer speed u would usually just say it’s a resistance feat due to him not being effected by his ability
both are equally possible that's why I brought it up in the video he could just have hax resistance like in the manga. Its not explicitly stated in the anime that its hax resistance. In the anime dub its even stated that he forced through it implying speed. Kaioken does not give new ability's it just a power amp. Its more narratively implied that its speed in the anime but in the manga its not.
@@NotOptimized well here’s an example as to y it can only be time hax resistants so in fiction we see a character seemingly destroy a universe and there is no statement to give confirmation on it are u gana say he destroyed the space time continuum just because he seemingly destroyed a uni r u gana say he is uni +, Of course not there isn’t enough context to say that he did destroy it. Same thing here and in fact if u look in csapw or vsbw they explain y it has to be stated or explained like how shines has immeasurable speed because of the context was give
@@NotOptimized u could argue that it’s just him over powering it like how ssbe vegita over powered popo hakai because he became stronger than him lol also it’s been consistently shown that if u r stronger than your opponent there hax don’t work as well
@@igneellinde4123 u would need context for both but if you want my actual take on it I would say it's goku over powering hit it fits with the Manga and makes sense within the series.
The correct phrasing is expansive. Expansive is a spatial term referring to the scope or space "covering a wide area in terms of space or scope; extensive or wide-ranging." So, if the scope of the space is infinite the space is infinite. For example, if I say this room is expansive. I don't mean the room is growing in size. I just mean its big. Synonyms are spacious, wide, extensive. "deep, expansive canyons" - oxford using it in a sentence. I don't scale dragon ball anymore so the quick search for the scan could be a mistranslation. Even if it was expanding that does not entail it's not infinite. It's just not sufficient to claim its infinite.
Wrong. It says "infinity expansive" as in covering infinite spaces, which lines up with the Daizenshuu and Kazinshuu statements about the mortal universe being an "infinite space of light and darkness" and "galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe". Also, you completely ignored what the NotOptimized said instead of providing a valid counterargument.
@@markforge4081 Yeah we agree that infinitely expanding ≠ Infinite. (Altho it would after infinite time.) You are looking past my point. The premise that the Daizenshuu uses the term expanding I take to be false.
For the WoV stuff couldn’t you just argue it’s a low outer construct? It very obviously isn’t 0D since it can contain 3D characters but low outer structures by virtue of being beyond dimensionality would appear to lack space in any and all forms and thus appear dimensionless.
Well a 3d being existing in a outer realm also seems quite contradictory. It might be best to assume that its separated from the other universes as apposed to legit lacking space and time. Or you could just argue the grand priest added it after that statement was made.
@@NotOptimized How is it contradictory? If the statement just meant that it was separate from the time-space of the universes then it would just say outside of or separate from space and time not that it was lacking it. Also the GP adding space and/or time to it is just something people made up. There is nothing to suggest he did this or is even capable of doing so.
@@danktank3607 Just for the sake of arguing it. The reason a 3d being can't exist in a 0 d world is that dimensionality does not exist in that world. The same goes for a low outer realm it does not have dimensionality it's just that this time it's above the system as opposed to simply not having it. I can see this being argued both ways. If this were to be correct this would imply a contradiction and make one of the things I said possibilities that avoid the contradiction. If this is not the case then yeah I would agree that these are just head cannon assumptions that can be kinda argued through ideas such as the timer in the T.O.P. Also another way of going about this is to say that it lacks dimensions but 3d beings can exist in it. You would argue this by reversing whatever argument someone would use for low outer allowing for dimensional beings. For example, if you were to argue that 3d beings can exist in a low outer realm because its above dimensionality and can encompass such a structure. I can argue the same for a non-spatial structure that only caps at 4d. A non-spatial structure of this sort can encompass things below it so it could have a 3d being in it. This is also arguable tho and that's why dimensionality and metaphysics make me want to die inside sometimes lmao.
Cool video! Coming from a massive ex DBU fan but now DB hater XD... The Goku community ruined my love for the DBU :( Very good analysis on the speed tiers. I hate when muppets use that Dyspo speed "statement" as proof of physicality. Since Raditz got to DBU they have been moving at light speeds+. And now they're casually 1,000s of times more powerful/faster than that.
thx The Raditz thing can actually be argued against in the manga because there is not time frames but at least by the Frieza saga they are ftl because of Goku traveling around the planet before they could react. Also the ship was at least moving ftl to go from earth to Jupiter so quick. And goku dodged a rock heading towards him while on the ship. I'm curious what ur problem with the Goku community is? Most of the people wanking him are joking, kids, or troll's. Idk why that would affect the series tho.
@@NotOptimized my problem with the Goku community only occurs in vs battles with other characters from other universes. The way they explain feats is so far from credible or understanding. Different to how you explain things. I understood everything you mentioned and loved how you left the alternate interpretations there to clear any random debates. I found this whole thing maturely explained.
@@tomchuur6431 don't look at my old videos lol nah but fr tho in debates you have to take a more affirmative stance and you usally presume the person knows what ur talking about and you provide proof if they ask. This is only in like chill debates tho. Obviously in a court you would have a burden of proof. Also debates get heated quick so people really suck at explaining stuff in the moment. Idk why that would make you dislike dB tho I guess it makes sense if you like powerscaling and want to talk with people about it.
@@NotOptimized I love power scaling. I power scale Kratos and have a passion explaining things to people. But when trolls or idiots don't accept logic, it feels like talking to a baby with an attitude. That's what I feel like most Goku diehard fans are. There are a select few that I love listening to about Goku, because alike you they understand more than the one perspective they want to be true. And it feels like an honorable lesson, not a debate.
@@tomchuur6431 In my old debates I argued goku being stronger than he was for the sake of getting better at knowing the character and the arguments around him. Which lead to absurd claims such as goku vs kratos, goku vs azathoth. Just weird stuff like that. I like truth, stories, learning, and debating. Which I would like to think makes me less biased but it still probably does not. The point I'm trying to get across hear is dont go into a conversation with a pre supposition about that persons claim even if it seems stupid. A lot of people are heavily biased or just actually dont understand what you are saying. Also as a skeptic you could just both be wrong lol.
Infinite speed (many people get this wrong) If you were to travel an "infinite" distance in a finite amount of time that would make the distance finite aswell. to be granted "infinite" speed you must cross an infinite distance in 0 time
Well, the manga explains that the chi/ki has the property it multiplies the base stats of the person. So if you become stronger then you become faster. So I think manga goku has innacesible speed (uh sorry for bad english)
@@imvaro2095 No problem my only language is English, and I suck at it lol. 1. Ok, so there are different ways to interpret the statement from Vegeta. "If my power level has risen then obviously my speed has improved as well!" All he says is if his ki increases then speed increases. 2. We don't know if it's a proportional relationship, linear or exponential. We can reasonably cross out that it's proportional since there is little reason to suspect it goes through the origin. All this means is that there is no set ratio between speed and ki. This is the most reasonable inference we can draw. Due to Toriama probably not mapping that out. Also, what unit of measurement for speed would he even be using? That will change the nature of the proportionality. 3. This was an early dbz statement and should be taken with a grain of salt. They have come a long way in knowledge, and he was not fully familiar with ki control at the time. Not saying it's wrong just use caution. 4. Since we don't know the relationship between ki and speed precisely it seems pointless to infer speed from ki. It's like asking S = c(k). Where speed is S and c is Ki. When we don't know k which is the constant of proportionality. (This is oversimplified since I have established why it's not proportional.) So, we can't infer speed levels from ki. 5. There are some issues with the speed tiers beyond infinite. They are a bit incoherent as they are not describing speed anymore. Speed is "The rate at which someone or something is able to move or operate." So, it uses spatial and temporal terms. "Rate" - Temporal. | "move" - Spatial and temporal. Removing either is just not speed. 6. Going above infinite power is not necessarily incoherent. Under the formal understanding of aleph 0 being infinity, you can go above it. Applying that cardinality to a power system might be a bit weird though if you want to be as precise as possible, I'm not familiar enough with set theory to say. At the very least I see no contradiction with doing it. 7. I'm a bit confused about how you inferred inaccessible. What ki value shows inaccessible speed? From my understanding of relations, inaccessible is not going to appear on a graph properly. Remember how it's not speed. Like assuming we have a 1:1 proportional relationship. So we have a power level of 1 then we have a speed of one. S=1 P=1 | S=10 P=10 | S=500 P=500| Ect. What happens when we plug inaccessible speed well inaccessible is. "S=D/0" We get a divide by 0 so we can't place it on the graph. So we don't know the speed value. So, it's c = s (1) | (C = ki | S = speed | 1 = the constant of proportionality.) However, s makes no sense in the context of "S=D/0". I'm limited in mathematical understanding so this could have some way of making sense. I'm just not familiar enough. 8. I have changed a lot of my stances since the video originally dropped. I don't scale Dragon Ball anymore. The video is not well-formed in multiple places.
Thank you a lot for replying, what I meant about is that if transformations are multipliers then It has no sense because that means divine transf. multiplies inmeasurably the power of the user and thats probably not the case. Nice video, keep going!
just mftl+ or infinite and resistence to time manipulation, and you yourself said goku would manipulate time. mftl+ or infinite speed and time manipulation or resistence to time manipulation.
i have a question why didn't you mention goku moving in an erased timline when he met future zeno also is dragonball macrocosom a 5d i mean living universe is infinitly expansive and after life is a higher demension but heaven same size as the living and hell is bigger does that mean goku is multiversal 5d with speed to move without time sorry about bad english
For the erased timeline part it only happened in the manga and I forgot about it. What I mean by that is in the manga we see the time ring get deleted but in the anime we dont see that so Zeno could have just erased all of the matter in the universe. For the manga it could be that goku has inaccessible speed but it could be argued to be an outlier. Also infinite 3d is not exactly 4d to be honest its very confusing but for the sake of convivence infinite 3d is 4d another dimension does not have to mean 5d it could just mean another universal body stacked on top of the universe. Also I suck at English to and its my first and only language lmao.
@@NotOptimized actually the erased timline thing is in the anime to i mean how do you think there is two zeno in the first place also manga is weaker than anime i mean goku in the manga didn't absorb ssg in base and hit abilities has limitation topo doesn't show hakaishin mod and g.o.d of universe 11 is stronger than jiren in a serieus fight meenwhile in the anime goku shook the void and topo changed the color of void
@@aminedekkal3325 I know that happened but what I'm saying is that the time line was not erased just all of the matter.this is because we dont see evidence of time being erased like in the manga. Manga goku is weaker than anime its just with this feat he may be slower. As I said before this could be plot induced stupidity as Zeno could not keep up with Dyspo and Jiren is faster than Dyspo yet Jirens feat of "being above time" is more impressive.
@@NotOptimized so the only possible explanation is goku fast enough to move in stopped or without time for limited while when he fought hit but now with his speed alone or with brute strenght we can see that with jiren he can move in a stoped time also zeno erased both time and space because time machine doesn't go to future or past it actually go to other dimensions for now in dragonball the only way to change the past orthe future without creating another timline is affecting the timeline its self whis did
@@aminedekkal3325 That's not the only way goku could be overpowering hits ability's like in the manga or he could be overpowering hits psudeo time (not actual time). This also applies to Jiren. I dont know how him going to an alternate timeline proves that the timeline is gone. As I said they showed the time ring being erased in the manga and not the anime. Implying the timeline in the manga was deleted.
@@kadexshidomuda8113 Someone is curious about your take on Gokus speed if you want to talk to them there discord is Angelicx#2040 if you hit them up it would be greatly appreciated.
The fact you think Super is when faster than light started shows that your one of the people who have only watch Dragon Ball Super and not taking in all of Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z.
@@pipz420 im so lost lmao. The video is debunking one of my old videos and i go over each argument that is blatantly wrong at first then I narrow down what speed goku currently is. Why would i mention db/dbz scaling. This is not a whole series scale. I never believed that goku was slower then light speed in dbz/db or only reached it in super. The original video was simply arguments that people could use and was more of a argumentation for the sake of it thing.
@@NotOptimized Only a question didn’t ssjb kaio Ken goku stated that at the level he was now time skip wouldn’t work ,anymore ,and before in base he said he only predicted hit attack ?
yeah, they were both evolving throughout the fight from my memory, at points time skip was blatantly getting negged, and at others, Goku was still getting hit. Pun intended.@@Smokeychees
Goku caps at mftl+ as you said goku by passing hits time Skip is because of his strength as whis said and not speed. You can also easily debunk immeasurable or infinite speed for goku Using basic logic. If goku has infinite speed how were so many characters able to outspeed or even Blitz him there shouldn't be something faster if you calc him to inf in ssjbk. Jiren blitzing Goku in the t.o.p even after Goku getting power ups. Later on we have granolah blitzing mui goku and at the end of the granolah saga Frieza blitzing and one tapping goku. The thing is that not even one two characters are faster then ssjbk goku there are many and there even levels to the speed so you couldn't say that jiren for exemple had irrelevant speed. To that comes another obvious contradiction the t.o.p had a time limit if goku transcends time why was time moving even after him going all out multiple times against jiren
Where did u get that the world of void is 0D? Ayt let's use Actual logic 😂 If somthing is 0D it can be broken by 1D beings with no effort, also how are 3D beings able to move in 0D 😂 It's called a VOID of nothingness hence it'd be 0D if it didn't hav the states of it being outside the multiverse being above space and time now this would make the infinite void of nothingness an Outerversal realm since Toppo with a hakai wasn't able to destroy it completely he simply changed its reality and this means 1 of 2 things either when the Grand priest was building the ring he put time into that void or everyone scales to Outerversal Now since nobody in db can be 0D after they show complex multi - Outerversal feats this then points towards more credible Outerversal scaling So I guess in the end Goku really does scale to Outer Anyone that scales the Null realm to 0D is a grade A idiot like how are 3D beings exist in a 0D void 😶of u said the void was 5D even that's more credible than 0D 😂
You can still have limits with infinite speed / strength. For example your stamina might not be infinite so you could not keep up with a character who has infinite speed for more than 2 seconds. also there are are things far beyond infinite in set theory Vsauce made a good vid about it ua-cam.com/video/SrU9YDoXE88/v-deo.html In dimensional theory a infinite 3d universe is 4d so theoretically the equivalent to a 5d cube Goku could not destroy. There by still having limits.
@@NotOptimized as ı said thats not possible even in psyhcs you need to have infinite energy to travel in light speed, Which means no one or life form fo beyond light speed, but ık something diffirent in dbs verse, İn dbs verse goku gets strong while he breaks his limiters *infinitely* İnfinite is the odd of limits and stop points, cuz it go infinitely, while goku has infinite limiters in theory
@@NotOptimized "you can keep up with some characther who has infünite speed" thats stupid you know right? You can t keep up with anything on infinite speed thats infinite on real life and dbs pshyc
@@NotOptimized ı say it to people so many times, Don t measure anime/manga or comic characther with theories, How can you even know 5d or 6d exist while saying anos is 9 d to 10d 💀💀🗿🗿
@@snailsinker5142 :skull: Even in anime and manga its canon he is not even faster than instant, Even if, immerasuable>>>inacsesable, and There is no way and feat we can say goku is at immerasuable speed or faster
@@nov_Dio are you braindead? "He's not even instant 🤓" goku has shown multiple feats to be inaccesible or higher speed you can't even tell me why he's not atleast infinite speed. Yet again your name and profile picture proofs your under the age of 12 so i probably shouldnt even be trying with you right now
@@snailsinker5142 show me proof he is faster than infinite 💀💀💀 Your brain is dead from you start to watch dbz 💀💀 Even in mui, goku is states to be faster than light by whis, Even in manga tui, he is stated to be not even close being faster than instant
Update a year later.
I don't scale db any more however I have gotten better at logic. A lot of the things I said were more than likely incoherent. I did not understand logic, time, speed, and ap at the level I do now. Some of the speed tiers mentioned are more than likely incoherent along with my ap scaling.
This is the Original vid (I was bad at YT back then) ua-cam.com/video/_fYmojGdh4k/v-deo.html
I am open to changing my opinion on this and here are some things I said that are wrong.
1. I said there are only 2 ways of looking at Goku moving in time skip and there are a lot more than 2 ways. For example, Goku's ki could be making him immune to hax. Goku could be overpowering a pseudo time made by hit (Not actual time).
2. Immeasurable speed characters do not have to be able to freely move through time they can be limited to only backward or forwards.
There is probably a lot more feel free to point them out.
Another thing you may want to take a look at is how Goku was casually existing and moving in a place of absolute nothing when he returned to grab Future Zeno. This isn't just a feat of Goku in base casually moving without the need of time or distance but also shrugging off the lack of even concept, reality, and literally everything.
@@menacingpotatoleaf Yeah I mentioned that in my original vid but forgot until u brang it up because it only happened conclusively in the manga. But we only have reason to believe in the manga time was erased. Not concepts such as speed. But if you wanted to argue it I made a wank goku vid that has scp 3812 vs goku lmao. (spoiler goku wins)
@@NotOptimized Nah it happened Anime as well. And the universe is completely erased time line and everything that ever made up existence like concepts are gone.
@@menacingpotatoleaf where is this stated in the Manga the time ring was deleted but in the anime there was just them in a void no reason to believe concepts or even space time is gone.
@@NotOptimized This had nothing to do with the time ring, this was when Goku and Trunks went a grabbed future zeno whom was still floating around absolute nothingness due to him wiping literally all forms of universal constructs within the time line leaving a blank pace in the flow of time itself. This was a quick moment that was glossed over other then Beerus angry Goku did that and went back there as well as him being upset there is 2 zenos now.
You've got no idea how thankful I am that you've made this video. Many times I've been stuck in debates about Goku's speed feats, and whether or not he even has some form of immeasurable speed. I'll be sourcing this video a lot more in the future👍
Also, I had no idea "irrelevant speed" was a thing until now, thanks for the info.
No problem the complements mean a lot to me thx.
@@NotOptimized You're welcome man.
Vegeta: "well done."
Vegeta and nappa taking longer to get to earth is because it’s shown that they were on a different planet when they made their way to earth and it’s implied they made multiple stops on planets on their way
true
Hey Vegeta! Let's go to SPAAAACE OUTBAAAACK!~
The Daizenshuu diagram isn't to scale, Toriyama even states that.
Source?
Yep, the diagram literally is a simplified representation of the universe 7 macrocosm. Toriyama simplified it for the readers to understand it.
May he rest in peace
OOOOOOF!
Wrong
Akira confirmed filler is canon so Pikkon and Goku get infinite speed from being able to cross the otherworld
Do you know where he said that because that's a pretty helpful scan.
Who cares?
@@Shutyourmouth20 everyone but you I guess 🤷♂️
@@NotOptimized bro give me your discord I have the scan
@@Zygoustus Np Optimized#6254
King kai verbatim says that Goku was "forcing his way into the future" when he fought hit so yeah I can see some limited form of immeasurable speed for Goku's combat speed.
only in the dub but yeah it could still be used as evidence
@@NotOptimizedthe Japanese subtitles said goku was moving several seconds on the future
@@Rising_Vortex oh i thought it was only dub
6:34 if goku can travel to the future by raw movement, then it's painfully obvious it's immeasurable speed by 0.1s he just moved throught non linear time for 0.1s
I agree its just a bit unconventional as to how he does it.
@@NotOptimized next video, outerversal afterlife debunk ?
@@makotomurazakieng6219 no
I'd say he has inaccessible-immeasurable- irrelevant speed depending on how you scals the verse.
For immeasurable speed you can use the time skip argument.
For inaccessible/irrelevant speed you'd have ro scale the verse.
Since the afterlife doesn't have time or space it'd mean Goku is atleast inaccessible. There are also statements that could scale the afterlife to outer meaning Goku would have irrelevant speed.
This is the first time i saw someone debunking himself xd
Fr lmao
goku shat his pants and turned around before goku black could reappear from instant transmission lol
Goku has at least inaccessible in both now as he was keeping up with granolah who had a technique to move faster than instant transmission
Quick summery of the video, goku is complex multi, with inf speed.
Goku having Inaccessible speed is a Little highbally but i can see it being the case only in the anime
For some reason Toyotaro loves to Downplay the anime feats in the manga. Hes said characters would blow up galaxies when in the first arc of dbs beerus and goku threatened the entire macrocosm lol
Vados literally states that Jiren possess power that TRANSCENDS time ITSELF, and I’ve seen people arguing against this. They say “oh it’s in context to Jiren overpowering Hit’s ability by just pure strength” first of all Vados is an angel and since angels can time travel, meaning she knows about it. She also explained the time skip during Goku’s second fight with Hit, so therefore we can use this state as an evidence. Second of all, Vados literally said that Jiren’s power TRANSCENDS time ITSELF, that would mean Hit was literally using TIME on that time cage attack on Jiren. And Jiren was literally breaking out of it, meaning he was breaking out of time ITSELF. And for those who use manga to say “oh but whis said Hit’s ability only works on weak opponents” Anime and Manga are still two different canons of the same series.
First of all that's a hyperbole and it means only he only reacted faster than before hit could use his time skip
The ability he used wasn't time skip what are you saying@@markforge4081
Manga is the main material so whatever contradicts the manga in anime is invalid
@@markforge4081 noooo that is not what happened
@@markforge4081 I think u r getting it wrong u haven't really watched TOP and the main comment already explained what hit did and what happened.
Jiren doesn't transcendent time as in him above time.
What vados is saying is that his power is above time haxs.
We live in the year 2024 and people are still using this nonsense argument about Dyspo at the speed of light. The ridiculous thing about this topic is that I, the Dashnikan, was just saying that to clarify how fast Dyspo the xeno is because of his ignorance of the level of speed. No character commented that he was at the speed of light, and even Frieza told him that your high speed would not Would it be of any benefit to me? He did not say that his speed is faster than light Lmao LoL
It's crazy how that argument managed to live for so long. It's such an old argument and also happens to suck lol.
@@NotOptimized Why is it literally the reality when we live in the year 2024 and most of the Dragon Ball haters still use Despop at the speed of light? This argument literally denies everything they say Of course, I am not referring to you personally, my friend, but only to respond to the Dragon Ball haters, because it is literally a ridiculous argument.
@@NotOptimized If my friend, you have a better response to this argument, you can give it to me apart from saying that it is just a contradiction
@@polk-tr7uv Well the ways that I see to debunk the light speed statement are going to fall under 2 categories. 1. As you said a contradiction 2. Showing that the statement is unreliable to show they cap at light speed. For 2 you can argue what you said or you can argue a mistranslation. You can also argue that it's just a major understatement that does not entail anything.
@@NotOptimized I see a response to these two arguments, the argument of Zeno's ignorance of the extent of this speed, as I presented it in the main comment, and the second argument I say is a mistake in the translation because literally you know the introductory posters in which pictures of the characters appear represent the poster that appeared Jiren, who mentioned that he surpasses the rulers of destruction from myself, this type of posters I have seen. Special for Dyspo, it was stated that he had reached a great level of speed, and the poster did not mention anything about the speed of light or sound. It was said in the poster that it was a great and tremendous speed that makes the strongest characters, such as Gohan and Frieza, suffer against it.
Doesn't suppressed Beerus feat of nullifying the super energy sphere before it's explosion destroys all of universe 7 in BOG quantify for infinite reaction speed?
Think of a bomb if its about to blow up and you disarm it do you scale to the reaction speed of what it would take to dodge the shrapnel from the bomb? The simple answer no. But if the bomb went off and you place a barrier around it yes. It depends on how you interpret what he did. I think animation wise its implied it went off so that's what I would go with. Im lookin at the anime tho so idk about BOG. In the anime the orb is implied to be universal and in the dub its stated that it will destroy everything.
No it isn't
I feel like this doesn’t make sense? The humans can move in the void so are the infinite speed ?
What does infinite speed mean? If he is that fast shouldn’t he be able to be untouchable? So he would win every fight easy?
And the battle of the gods punch was a shockwave which is power (strength + SPEED) so couldn’t he just be really fricken strong so it would make that shockwave ?
Also not saying you’re not just saying I don’t understand
@@surgeweirdo1464
1. I'm not sure if I made that argument in the video if I did that's not a valid argument. Being in the WOV does not entail infinite speed.
2. Infinite speed simply means being able to travel an infinite distance in finite time. You could go faster or simply just make speed be useless with some Hax to get around it.
3. I don't really abide by the shockwave argument anymore however it can still be argued. The argument goes that Goku scales in speed to his shock wave. The shock wave traveled an infinite distance in finite time. The shock wave has infinite speed thereby Goku has infinite speed. The issue is assuming Goku scales in speed to the shock wave. It is debatable, and I personally don't use it anymore since I think the mechanics of the shock wave are unknown.
@@NotOptimized wow, thanks for replying that's actually pretty cool.
but isn't the arena a Finite distance? (haven't watched the anime in a while so don't remember what exactly what happened)
This isn't related to the speed but can you tell me how strong would a character be if they can create a universe
First universes vary in size and creating one is not the same as destroying one, we might be able to create a universe. But if a character were to create everything individually all at once they would just be universal level in power but universal varies a lot. Not a lot of people in the scaling community even use force(Joules/TNT) at this point because we don't exactly know how it would apply at that scale or if it would be too big of a number. Some universes can have multiple spatial dimensions which would grant the person creating/destroying even more power. Here is a vid going more in-depth into the terms people use ua-cam.com/video/P-CLBU6iwTk/v-deo.html
I hope this helped and feel free to ask any questions even not related to the vid.
@@NotOptimizedcan you tell me if Goku cam destroy a universe because there are so many statements about universal strength but I need feets
@@omgwthc35 Why would you need feats?
Goku has irrelevant speed LMFAO,check officialdripsauce videos where he explains things why Goku isn't bounded by time,why DB cosmology goes up to high outer and above,and why he is irrelevant speed and the likes,just watch his videos,all these low multi and mftl are outdated scales even Z Goku is 5d and immeasurable speed
I looked at some of his vids and they seem like pretty solid scales I would need to look into it a bit more and formulate my thoughts before jumping to a conclusion tho.
@@NotOptimized yeah you can talk with him on discord ,that guy pretty good.he debunked everything that people use to say Goku isn't outerversal,it's a pity not many people know his scale
@@tonymickyson8129 might consider it
They were to fight at light speed towards the end of Dragonball before the Saiyan Saga.
Goku has Irrelevant speed.
The waves that Goku was sending in his fight against Beerus reached the afterlife, which is outerversal structure , which was mentioned in the Daisencho that it is heaven, transending dimensions, and it was mentioned in several sources in the games Guide and Data Book, which are official source and Canon to the anime and manga, that it is a place where the concept of time and space does not exist.
That's why Goku has Irrelevant Speed.
You are special in the head 💀
@@miftahuljannat3050 🗣🤡.
Another Good and I respect our opinion on Goku's Speed.
thx
@@NotOptimized Np!
Hey uhh question i was watching dragon ball super and whis said the center of the universe
Can a infinite universe have a center?
Depends on the definition of center. If the definition of the center of sphere is a point with a circle that is equidistant from the edges then yes ever where (except places that are infinitesimally a fraction of the universe away from the edges) would be the center. Infinity gets really weird. For example being 1,000,000,000 light years away from the edge would be an infinitesimal of the universe. Any thing that is not infinitely away from the edge would not be the center. I prob explained this horribly but infinity is an annoying concept to grasp.
I'm the Koran it says. "No finite mind can comprehend things infinite"😃
U can also move in stoped time if u have resistance to time manipulation feats like this with now statement to prove they r moving in time with sheer speed u would usually just say it’s a resistance feat due to him not being effected by his ability
both are equally possible that's why I brought it up in the video he could just have hax resistance like in the manga. Its not explicitly stated in the anime that its hax resistance. In the anime dub its even stated that he forced through it implying speed. Kaioken does not give new ability's it just a power amp. Its more narratively implied that its speed in the anime but in the manga its not.
@@NotOptimized well here’s an example as to y it can only be time hax resistants so in fiction we see a character seemingly destroy a universe and there is no statement to give confirmation on it are u gana say he destroyed the space time continuum just because he seemingly destroyed a uni r u gana say he is uni +, Of course not there isn’t enough context to say that he did destroy it. Same thing here and in fact if u look in csapw or vsbw they explain y it has to be stated or explained like how shines has immeasurable speed because of the context was give
@@NotOptimized u could argue that it’s just him over powering it like how ssbe vegita over powered popo hakai because he became stronger than him lol also it’s been consistently shown that if u r stronger than your opponent there hax don’t work as well
@@NotOptimized it’s not because context was given that’s y it isn’t a speed feat u need context 4 it
@@igneellinde4123 u would need context for both but if you want my actual take on it I would say it's goku over powering hit it fits with the Manga and makes sense within the series.
Okay the db universe again I repeat is not infinite it only says.
"INFINITELY EXPANDING" in which is different from being actually infinite
The correct phrasing is expansive. Expansive is a spatial term referring to the scope or space "covering a wide area in terms of space or scope; extensive or wide-ranging." So, if the scope of the space is infinite the space is infinite. For example, if I say this room is expansive. I don't mean the room is growing in size. I just mean its big. Synonyms are spacious, wide, extensive. "deep, expansive canyons" - oxford using it in a sentence. I don't scale dragon ball anymore so the quick search for the scan could be a mistranslation. Even if it was expanding that does not entail it's not infinite. It's just not sufficient to claim its infinite.
@@NotOptimized Infinitely expanding ≠ Infinite again there's a difference
Wrong. It says "infinity expansive" as in covering infinite spaces, which lines up with the Daizenshuu and Kazinshuu statements about the mortal universe being an "infinite space of light and darkness" and "galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe". Also, you completely ignored what the NotOptimized said instead of providing a valid counterargument.
@@markforge4081 Yeah we agree that infinitely expanding ≠ Infinite. (Altho it would after infinite time.) You are looking past my point. The premise that the Daizenshuu uses the term expanding I take to be false.
Well base goku in manga is 400 quadrillion times the speed of light so you just have to find the multipliers
For the WoV stuff couldn’t you just argue it’s a low outer construct? It very obviously isn’t 0D since it can contain 3D characters but low outer structures by virtue of being beyond dimensionality would appear to lack space in any and all forms and thus appear dimensionless.
Well a 3d being existing in a outer realm also seems quite contradictory. It might be best to assume that its separated from the other universes as apposed to legit lacking space and time. Or you could just argue the grand priest added it after that statement was made.
@@NotOptimized How is it contradictory? If the statement just meant that it was separate from the time-space of the universes then it would just say outside of or separate from space and time not that it was lacking it. Also the GP adding space and/or time to it is just something people made up. There is nothing to suggest he did this or is even capable of doing so.
@@danktank3607 Just for the sake of arguing it. The reason a 3d being can't exist in a 0 d world is that dimensionality does not exist in that world. The same goes for a low outer realm it does not have dimensionality it's just that this time it's above the system as opposed to simply not having it. I can see this being argued both ways. If this were to be correct this would imply a contradiction and make one of the things I said possibilities that avoid the contradiction. If this is not the case then yeah I would agree that these are just head cannon assumptions that can be kinda argued through ideas such as the timer in the T.O.P. Also another way of going about this is to say that it lacks dimensions but 3d beings can exist in it. You would argue this by reversing whatever argument someone would use for low outer allowing for dimensional beings. For example, if you were to argue that 3d beings can exist in a low outer realm because its above dimensionality and can encompass such a structure. I can argue the same for a non-spatial structure that only caps at 4d. A non-spatial structure of this sort can encompass things below it so it could have a 3d being in it. This is also arguable tho and that's why dimensionality and metaphysics make me want to die inside sometimes lmao.
Cool video! Coming from a massive ex DBU fan but now DB hater XD... The Goku community ruined my love for the DBU :(
Very good analysis on the speed tiers.
I hate when muppets use that Dyspo speed "statement" as proof of physicality. Since Raditz got to DBU they have been moving at light speeds+. And now they're casually 1,000s of times more powerful/faster than that.
thx
The Raditz thing can actually be argued against in the manga because there is not time frames but at least by the Frieza saga they are ftl because of Goku traveling around the planet before they could react. Also the ship was at least moving ftl to go from earth to Jupiter so quick. And goku dodged a rock heading towards him while on the ship.
I'm curious what ur problem with the Goku community is? Most of the people wanking him are joking, kids, or troll's. Idk why that would affect the series tho.
@@NotOptimized my problem with the Goku community only occurs in vs battles with other characters from other universes. The way they explain feats is so far from credible or understanding. Different to how you explain things. I understood everything you mentioned and loved how you left the alternate interpretations there to clear any random debates. I found this whole thing maturely explained.
@@tomchuur6431 don't look at my old videos lol nah but fr tho in debates you have to take a more affirmative stance and you usally presume the person knows what ur talking about and you provide proof if they ask. This is only in like chill debates tho. Obviously in a court you would have a burden of proof. Also debates get heated quick so people really suck at explaining stuff in the moment. Idk why that would make you dislike dB tho I guess it makes sense if you like powerscaling and want to talk with people about it.
@@NotOptimized I love power scaling. I power scale Kratos and have a passion explaining things to people. But when trolls or idiots don't accept logic, it feels like talking to a baby with an attitude. That's what I feel like most Goku diehard fans are. There are a select few that I love listening to about Goku, because alike you they understand more than the one perspective they want to be true. And it feels like an honorable lesson, not a debate.
@@tomchuur6431 In my old debates I argued goku being stronger than he was for the sake of getting better at knowing the character and the arguments around him. Which lead to absurd claims such as goku vs kratos, goku vs azathoth. Just weird stuff like that. I like truth, stories, learning, and debating. Which I would like to think makes me less biased but it still probably does not. The point I'm trying to get across hear is dont go into a conversation with a pre supposition about that persons claim even if it seems stupid. A lot of people are heavily biased or just actually dont understand what you are saying. Also as a skeptic you could just both be wrong lol.
Infinite speed (many people get this wrong)
If you were to travel an "infinite" distance in a finite amount of time that would make the distance finite aswell.
to be granted "infinite" speed you must cross an infinite distance in 0 time
how? d/t Infinite/any finite = infinite
Of course in relativity velocity isn’t distance over time but I guess we are using anime logic
Well, the manga explains that the chi/ki has the property it multiplies the base stats of the person. So if you become stronger then you become faster. So I think manga goku has innacesible speed (uh sorry for bad english)
Also, this makes an incoherency, because if goku has innacesible speed then he has beyond-infinite strenght.
@@imvaro2095 No problem my only language is English, and I suck at it lol.
1. Ok, so there are different ways to interpret the statement from Vegeta. "If my power level has risen then obviously my speed has improved as well!" All he says is if his ki increases then speed increases.
2. We don't know if it's a proportional relationship, linear or exponential. We can reasonably cross out that it's proportional since there is little reason to suspect it goes through the origin. All this means is that there is no set ratio between speed and ki. This is the most reasonable inference we can draw. Due to Toriama probably not mapping that out. Also, what unit of measurement for speed would he even be using? That will change the nature of the proportionality.
3. This was an early dbz statement and should be taken with a grain of salt. They have come a long way in knowledge, and he was not fully familiar with ki control at the time. Not saying it's wrong just use caution.
4. Since we don't know the relationship between ki and speed precisely it seems pointless to infer speed from ki. It's like asking S = c(k). Where speed is S and c is Ki. When we don't know k which is the constant of proportionality. (This is oversimplified since I have established why it's not proportional.) So, we can't infer speed levels from ki.
5. There are some issues with the speed tiers beyond infinite. They are a bit incoherent as they are not describing speed anymore. Speed is "The rate at which someone or something is able to move or operate." So, it uses spatial and temporal terms. "Rate" - Temporal. | "move" - Spatial and temporal. Removing either is just not speed.
6. Going above infinite power is not necessarily incoherent. Under the formal understanding of aleph 0 being infinity, you can go above it. Applying that cardinality to a power system might be a bit weird though if you want to be as precise as possible, I'm not familiar enough with set theory to say. At the very least I see no contradiction with doing it.
7. I'm a bit confused about how you inferred inaccessible. What ki value shows inaccessible speed? From my understanding of relations, inaccessible is not going to appear on a graph properly. Remember how it's not speed. Like assuming we have a 1:1 proportional relationship. So we have a power level of 1 then we have a speed of one. S=1 P=1 | S=10 P=10 | S=500 P=500| Ect. What happens when we plug inaccessible speed well inaccessible is. "S=D/0" We get a divide by 0 so we can't place it on the graph. So we don't know the speed value. So, it's c = s (1) | (C = ki | S = speed | 1 = the constant of proportionality.) However, s makes no sense in the context of "S=D/0". I'm limited in mathematical understanding so this could have some way of making sense. I'm just not familiar enough.
8. I have changed a lot of my stances since the video originally dropped. I don't scale Dragon Ball anymore. The video is not well-formed in multiple places.
Thank you a lot for replying, what I meant about is that if transformations are multipliers then It has no sense because that means divine transf. multiplies inmeasurably the power of the user and thats probably not the case. Nice video, keep going!
@@imvaro2095 No problem!
just mftl+ or infinite and resistence to time manipulation, and you yourself said goku would manipulate time.
mftl+ or infinite speed and time manipulation or resistence to time manipulation.
i have a question why didn't you mention goku moving in an erased timline when he met future zeno
also is dragonball macrocosom a 5d
i mean living universe is infinitly expansive and after life is a higher demension but heaven same size as the living and hell is bigger does that mean goku is multiversal 5d with speed to move without time
sorry about bad english
For the erased timeline part it only happened in the manga and I forgot about it. What I mean by that is in the manga we see the time ring get deleted but in the anime we dont see that so Zeno could have just erased all of the matter in the universe. For the manga it could be that goku has inaccessible speed but it could be argued to be an outlier. Also infinite 3d is not exactly 4d to be honest its very confusing but for the sake of convivence infinite 3d is 4d another dimension does not have to mean 5d it could just mean another universal body stacked on top of the universe. Also I suck at English to and its my first and only language lmao.
@@NotOptimized actually the erased timline thing is in the anime to
i mean how do you think there is two zeno in the first place also manga is weaker than anime i mean goku in the manga didn't absorb ssg in base and hit abilities has limitation topo doesn't show hakaishin mod and g.o.d of universe 11 is stronger than jiren in a serieus fight
meenwhile in the anime goku shook the void and topo changed the color of void
@@aminedekkal3325 I know that happened but what I'm saying is that the time line was not erased just all of the matter.this is because we dont see evidence of time being erased like in the manga. Manga goku is weaker than anime its just with this feat he may be slower. As I said before this could be plot induced stupidity as Zeno could not keep up with Dyspo and Jiren is faster than Dyspo yet Jirens feat of "being above time" is more impressive.
@@NotOptimized so the only possible explanation
is goku fast enough to move in stopped or without time for limited while when he fought hit but now with his speed alone or with brute strenght we can see that with jiren he can move in a stoped time
also zeno erased both time and space because time machine doesn't go to future or past it actually go to other dimensions for now in dragonball the only way to change the past orthe future without creating another timline is affecting the timeline its self whis did
@@aminedekkal3325 That's not the only way goku could be overpowering hits ability's like in the manga or he could be overpowering hits psudeo time (not actual time). This also applies to Jiren. I dont know how him going to an alternate timeline proves that the timeline is gone. As I said they showed the time ring being erased in the manga and not the anime. Implying the timeline in the manga was deleted.
He has irrelevant speed. We can discuss this.
Whats your argument?
@@NotOptimized Multiverse tegmark
@@kadexshidomuda8113 what do you mean?
@@NotOptimized level 3 multiverse and how each timeline contains all if time.
@@kadexshidomuda8113 Someone is curious about your take on Gokus speed if you want to talk to them there discord is Angelicx#2040 if you hit them up it would be greatly appreciated.
If Jiren has immeasurable or irrelevant speed, then Goku should also plus some since Gokus faster than Jiren
Indeed assuming he can apply it in combat.
@Optimized I'm sure they can. Dragonball characters don't care about TRAVEL speed. It's all about that dank COMBAT speed baby!!
@@amedkit fr gas traveling across the galaxy. Like his travel speed is slow af compared to his combat as he scales to Goku in combat.
@@NotOptimizedHe travel the universe
Yeah OK but he still ain't faster than the fastest in the universe BURTER! 😤
REAL
Goku has innacecable speed 😳
Great video
The fact you think Super is when faster than light started shows that your one of the people who have only watch Dragon Ball Super and not taking in all of Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z.
wdym lol ftl has arguably been a thing since db lmao.
@@NotOptimized then mention that. You start by arguing hit vs Goku when that should be the end of the argument.
@@pipz420 im so lost lmao. The video is debunking one of my old videos and i go over each argument that is blatantly wrong at first then I narrow down what speed goku currently is. Why would i mention db/dbz scaling. This is not a whole series scale. I never believed that goku was slower then light speed in dbz/db or only reached it in super. The original video was simply arguments that people could use and was more of a argumentation for the sake of it thing.
@@NotOptimized
Only a question didn’t ssjb kaio Ken goku stated that at the level he was now time skip wouldn’t work ,anymore ,and before in base he said he only predicted hit attack ?
yeah, they were both evolving throughout the fight from my memory, at points time skip was blatantly getting negged, and at others, Goku was still getting hit. Pun intended.@@Smokeychees
Goku caps at mftl+ as you said goku by passing hits time Skip is because of his strength as whis said and not speed. You can also easily debunk immeasurable or infinite speed for goku Using basic logic. If goku has infinite speed how were so many characters able to outspeed or even Blitz him there shouldn't be something faster if you calc him to inf in ssjbk. Jiren blitzing Goku in the t.o.p even after Goku getting power ups. Later on we have granolah blitzing mui goku and at the end of the granolah saga Frieza blitzing and one tapping goku. The thing is that not even one two characters are faster then ssjbk goku there are many and there even levels to the speed so you couldn't say that jiren for exemple had irrelevant speed. To that comes another obvious contradiction the t.o.p had a time limit if goku transcends time why was time moving even after him going all out multiple times against jiren
Where did u get that the world of void is 0D?
Ayt let's use Actual logic 😂
If somthing is 0D it can be broken by 1D beings with no effort, also how are 3D beings able to move in 0D 😂
It's called a VOID of nothingness hence it'd be 0D if it didn't hav the states of it being outside the multiverse being above space and time now this would make the infinite void of nothingness an Outerversal realm since Toppo with a hakai wasn't able to destroy it completely he simply changed its reality and this means 1 of 2 things either when the Grand priest was building the ring he put time into that void or everyone scales to Outerversal
Now since nobody in db can be 0D after they show complex multi - Outerversal feats this then points towards more credible Outerversal scaling
So I guess in the end Goku really does scale to Outer
Anyone that scales the Null realm to 0D is a grade A idiot like how are 3D beings exist in a 0D void 😶of u said the void was 5D even that's more credible than 0D 😂
The heck is immesarable
Speed Above time
(does not include time travel via being ftl)
@@CHAOS_FR600 That's Immeasurable bro
@@Flipitmixit What it just ftl.
Fr why you dbs fans highball goku this much?
Goku s body has limits, nothing with limits can have infinite speed or strenghth.
You can still have limits with infinite speed / strength. For example your stamina might not be infinite so you could not keep up with a character who has infinite speed for more than 2 seconds. also there are are things far beyond infinite in set theory Vsauce made a good vid about it ua-cam.com/video/SrU9YDoXE88/v-deo.html In dimensional theory a infinite 3d universe is 4d so theoretically the equivalent to a 5d cube Goku could not destroy. There by still having limits.
@@NotOptimized as ı said thats not possible even in psyhcs you need to have infinite energy to travel in light speed,
Which means no one or life form fo beyond light speed, but ık something diffirent in dbs verse,
İn dbs verse goku gets strong while he breaks his limiters *infinitely*
İnfinite is the odd of limits and stop points, cuz it go infinitely, while goku has infinite limiters in theory
@@NotOptimized if u want to travel in infinite speed on dbs verse, you need to becone limitless (like saitama ger/wou, anos)
@@NotOptimized "you can keep up with some characther who has infünite speed" thats stupid you know right?
You can t keep up with anything on infinite speed thats infinite on real life and dbs pshyc
@@NotOptimized ı say it to people so many times,
Don t measure anime/manga or comic characther with theories,
How can you even know 5d or 6d exist while saying anos is 9 d to 10d 💀💀🗿🗿
mftl+ at best
nice joke bro he already had inf speed in BoG L rage bait
@Obanaiguro913
delusional goku is mftl+ not infinite neither inaccessible
@@smal750 nah.
Goku speed is mftl+++ but not infinite, cuz he can t reach it
Goku has inaccessible speed with a low ball lol
@@snailsinker5142 :skull:
Even in anime and manga its canon he is not even faster than instant,
Even if, immerasuable>>>inacsesable, and
There is no way and feat we can say goku is at immerasuable speed or faster
@@nov_Dio are you braindead? "He's not even instant 🤓" goku has shown multiple feats to be inaccesible or higher speed you can't even tell me why he's not atleast infinite speed. Yet again your name and profile picture proofs your under the age of 12 so i probably shouldnt even be trying with you right now
@@snailsinker5142 he needs whis s travel thing which mean he is not instant and not even close to infinite.
@@snailsinker5142 show me proof he is faster than infinite 💀💀💀
Your brain is dead from you start to watch dbz 💀💀
Even in mui, goku is states to be faster than light by whis,
Even in manga tui, he is stated to be not even close being faster than instant
Yoo man love the vid would u like to talk on discord
What about I'm open to conversations? My discord is Optimized#6254
@@NotOptimized bet