The Luger in Finland
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- Опубліковано 31 бер 2021
- / forgottenweapons
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After the failure of the domestic production Ahlberg pistols and some disappointment with the performance of surplus French Ruby pistols, the Finnish military turned to DWM in Germany for a main service pistol in 1922. The core of the Finnish armed forces had been exposed to the Luger as Jaegers in German military service during World War One, and they knew and liked the Luger design. Bowing to Versailles restrictions in the post-war years, the guns purchased were chambered for 7.65mm Luger, with sub-100mm barrels (specifically, 95mm and 98mm). The first 2,000 were received in 1922, another 2,000 in 1923, and by 1929 the Army had acquired 8,000 (purchases stopped in 1929 with the decision to produce a domestic pistol, which would be the Lahti L-35). The Luger in 7.65mm was designated the m/23 pistol.
In addition to Army purchases, many private individuals bought their own Lugers that would see military service, as did the Civil Guard. In fact, the Luger was a more common service pistol than the L-35 in both the Winter War and the Continuation War. Once the Winter War began, worn-out m/23 pistols were fitted with new 9x19mm barrels made by Sako and Tikkakoski, although the hot Finnish SMG ammunition would cause significant wear and eventually destroy many of the guns. Those that survived both wars would remain in service all the way into the 1980s, when they were finally surplussed.
One of the examples we have today is a gun that was eventually transferred to the Finnish prison administration system, and was marked by them - there was no crest or chamber marking put on the Finnish contract guns by DWM.
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I thought for sure that this was an April Fool's video, and he was going to pull out a Lahti.
That would have been terrible
Ian: here's a luger *PULLS OUT TAHITI* as you can see it has a different style.
It would have been funny if he said here's a arasaka and pulled out a mosin
@@brotherhoodofsteelpaladin5873 That would be silly, Tahiti is an island, Lahti means gulf. Completely opposite. :p
@@Kumimono instead of lahti or tahiti what if he pulled out a mk IV Ruger
@@brotherhoodofsteelpaladin5873 That, would be just weird. 🤔
Or a Bergman
He was recently in Finland, but shows off finnish arms in the U.S. The gun jesus acts in mysterious ways.
He was probably too busy enjoying Finland, anyone would too
After shooting this vid he went home and poured a Kyro whiskey and said to himself: "I'll just do 10 maybe 15 more videos on the history of Finnish firearms. Then I'll have decently expressed my gratitude for their hospitality and friendship during the Finish Brutality event."
... And THAT is why the doors to nearly every gun vault in the world are open to Gun Jesus. And quite often so even by specific request.
I just know gun Jesus was at a distillery, so the miracles start, and in honor, I ran my still to pay honor to Sprits, now I Am "Spirited!!"
@@elijahaitaok8624 He did mention shooting some videos when he was here, not sure if he just meant the brutality videos or if he filmed some firearms as well. Hopefully the latter. :)
He is wearing the ceremonial merino-hoodie from Varusteleka. It symbolises perfection.
Its always so nice when your submarine come pre-equipped with Lugers
And now we can't have submarines anymore :( How else are we supposed to get our cool Lugers!!
Like the British ships that were sold off post war that came with a complement of LANCHESTER SMG's!
Can't find the reference right now, but I remember reading, that the submarine "Vesikko" was equipped with 7.65mm Luger pistols and 6.5mm Mauser rifles (presumably Swedish). There have been m/23 Lugers floating around with unit plates from one of the 5 submarines. Of course, the plates could still be mismatched.
Anyway, the subs were built at a Finnish shipyard (as part of the German inter-war rearmament R&D program), and I doubt Germany actually supplied any small arms for them. They were not officially involved with the program.
The "Vesikko" is the only surviving and restored Finnish submarine. It's on display and open to the public on the fortress island of Suomenlinna, right outside Helsinki.
@@cooliphonetricks We actually are allowed to have subs now since we declared the limitations of the Paris peace agreement invalid in the 1990s. We even considered buying old submarines from Sweden but decided building a submarine arm from the ground up to serve in what is basically a deep puddle was not worth the cost.
@@ilmari132 Oh I see, I didn't know that. I thought the Paris agreement was still valid. I guess we also still keep to the 50 fighter aircraft allowance because we don't spend 90% of our tax money on defense lol.
It's fair enough since wasn't the agreement basically signed to appease the USSR?
"Vankeinhoitolaitos" transtalates to "department of prisoner care" or more directly "The department that takes care of prisoners", which sounds pretty ominous. :D
7.65mm takes care of many things.
@@dimapez Or Crime Consequences Agency, which is fitting.
@@dimapez Ah, that's their own translation, I see. I just literally translated Rikosseuraamuslaitos.
well bureau of prisons, basically
I would say department of corrections, but finnish prison system can have so many translations..
You forgot your morning application of Cosmoline! You are worth it, remember!
@Stop Banningme You mean, to twirl it around.
@Stop Banningme Wow, imagine explaining THAT to poison control.
Ooh, patreon supporter inside joke :)
Russian face cleanser
Maybe it's natural...maybe it's Cosmoline.
Perkele! Which, according to Ian in Varusteleka's video, means "Here in Finland, we love everybody." Perfect.
Well, my friend visiting Finland said everyone said it to him all the time so clearly it is a term of affection. ;P
hahaha Perrrrrrkele !
Uh.. guys
Nevermind..
@@josephthomas8318 Mitä? 4th gen Finnish-American here. I know exactly what perkele means.
Though I learned it in the context of: saatana perkele!
I learned it from a war movie where a Finnish soldier yelled "perkele" at the top of his lungs while firing his machine gun at Russian soldiers. Not sure the exact translation, but it cant be a good thing.
“I like French pistols as much as the next person, maybe more so...” 😆
"I like French pistols, and I cannot lie...."
Is funny cause it's true
Ian kaivaa Lugerin esiin, alushousuni turhaan pesin
Humpataanko Jenkeissä?
saakeli olin samaa kirjoittamassa pentele!
Humppalain toistuva rikkominen johtaa tekemisiin vankeihoitolatoksen kanssa
Itekki oon suomalainen
Perkele!
A note on the early Finnish officer corps, they were not all trained in Germany. While the jäger troops made up a big part of them, a lot of especially senior officers also came from the tzarist Russian and subsequently white forces of the Russian civil war. Most notably Mannerheim himself. Having two main sources of officers led to some issues with cultural differences, even as late as the winter war.
Regarding 4:20, the Finnish Navy actually only ever had total 5 submarines, of which all were built in Finland, one being a type II-A prototype ordered by the Germans (who can't officially build their own due to the treaty of Versailles) in 1930 (launched 1933), who then sold it to the Finnish Navy in 1936 after they were done testing it, the other 4 subs only ever having been in finnish hands.
I have no clue on how many Lugers the Germans might have left on the submarine in question, but it's the only one Finland bought from Germany. The submarine in question is Vesikko, which you might've seen at the Suomenlinna sea fort in Helsinki where it's displayed, it being the only surviving submarine of the Finnish Navy.
Fits the same pattern that Ian has mentioned in some other videos, where Germans did some of their weapons development abroad to circumvent the Versailles treaty. Some small arms in Switzerland (Solothurn), anti-tank cannons in the Soviet Union, submarines in Finland etc. Probably some other stuff in other countries as well.
Suomenlinna fort - have been there about 33 years ago - I forgot the name, you remembered it to me! 👍🏻
I had to skip to the end first to see if this was an April fools video.
I was expecting perfection the way they did with the Mosin. Instead they went full Bubba. 😳
Also, I love, love, love shooter grade guns.
As a finn, I looked the video through to check out april fools, too bad there was none! Otherwise great clip as usual by Ian :)
.......but that would have been the Finnish purchase Elbonian Lugers.....
Same. I thought it would be some horrible Khyber Pass monstrosity with fake Finnish markings.
First time I didn't skip the add! :D (it was the Varusteleka Cosmolene add, featuring Ian himself! (y) )
My grandpa's Parabellum (as Lugers are known here) is the original 7,65 mm caliber with the shorter barrel but the front sight has been changed to a similar one as on the rebarreled on this video. There is a place for the unit disk on the grip, but it has been removed.
Quite a lot of reserve officers kept their sidearms after the war, I believe they were not demanded back with the rest of the equipment when they were released from service
(there was a threat of Russians trying invasion again/soviets using the Finnish communists to put up a puppet goverment)
I saw the ad on Bloke's channel...HILARIOUS! Only Ian could have pulled it off.
You people get advertisements? 😳
The second gun seems to have an LP08 "artillery" Luger upper, but with a short 7.65 barrel. This is entirely consistent with the whole m/23 order, as a lot of them were assembled from leftover WW1 parts at DWM.
Very cool. I agree guns that saw service and hard use are a lot more interesting than an immaculate safe queen.
And for April Fools, I was half expecting Ian to be doing one of those shooting matches with a French musket or something haha
rubberband gun was my call.
Or his french throwing rock lol
I was expecting a fully serious nerf history/review/shooting.
I love the ‘beater’ gun, really shows its history.
Given the date, I’m mildly surprised Ian didn’t tell us about the ‘MG42 Bullpup conversion in 5.7x28mm’ behind him.
You are becoming a Tikkakoski Mannequin. :)
Funny thing, as a kid, I thought "Lahti pistooli" meant any sort of pistol, smuggled from the front, for the explicit purpose of butchering farm animals. "Lahti" or "lahtaus" meaning "butchering", among many things. Also means gulf. And is the name of the guy who designed the pistol. Aimo can also mean "big" or "large". A big gulf, Aimo Lahti. :)
Great example of logical reasoning based on isufficient data. (And also pretty funny).
Shades of kuusi palaa
Coffee, toast, and Ian explaining interesting facts about Finnish lugers? Perfect start to my day! :-)
I second that opinion! I have never read the comments before so I had never heard Ian referred to as the “gun Jesus” but I dare say that phrase may have crossed my mind before. It is SO refreshing to come here and not have a clue as to what his politics are and just get an education on the engineering and history of the guns, which suits my interests perfectly. Thank you Ian, coffee, toast and Ian’s new video. Just about the best start to a day possible.
@@billchessell8213 that is the only reason I watch Ian's videos. NO Politics from Ian ever! I can learn a great deal about the history of weapons and never have to wade through the filth of someone's politics.
The longer pistol has L35 Lahti front sight. The rear sight is painted and the slot is filed wider. A target gun of sorts.
I though that sight looked familiar! Good catch.
Hey @Forgotten weapons
I live roughly 2 kilometers away from the factory, where these were made here in Tikkakoski, Central Finland. The building these were made back then, is currently used as a library!
I recently watch "The Unknown Soldier" and an officer was carrying a Luger. I found that interesting but it made since given Finland's history. Glad to get that history fleshed out with this video.
I watched it too it's available on youtube with english subtitles
The look of "been there, done that" is much more interesting to me than a nice clean factory fresh piece, especially on military weapons, or really anything military. I like being able to look at something and see all the scars of a long life
You mention these guys' long service, the SUOMI KP31 was only officially taken out of "oh shit it's war" warehouses in the 2000's. I know people who got to dump drum after drum of ammo through them during their national service because the army was getting rid of all their old ammo and guns.
It was pretty common to paint the rear sight and front sight with white or red (have seen both colours used) paint by e.g. military personnel when they used them for military & other competition shooting. Likevise they usually filed the front sight to match the point of aim exactly. I have seen these sold in the past with both 7,65 Para barrel as "spare" while the gun itself had the newer 9mm Para Tikkakoski barrel installed. Many army service parabellums and L-35 sure got beating in WW2 battles and also after the WW2 due having used Suomi SMG ammunition. Even long after WW2 the pistol ammunition in 9mm para was in short supply so in armed service use these guns broke after a while. My dad's service L-35 was welded at least 3 times because of this reason. Many after ww2 P-1/P-38's broke down due to same reason, I've seen e.g. one P-38 with slide broken into two separe parts due to use of Suomi SMG ammunition.
I hope you enjoyed your stay in Finland Ian, keep them videos coming!
8:58 vankienhoitolatos means quite literally prisoner treatment center/facility.
In the context, laitos refers to (prisoner care) administration.
Buut it is not. It is a legal institution, not a specific, concrete place/location.
@@mursuhillo242 see if i care
@@archmagosbiologusraucker2178 ei toi oikee käänny lontooks, mut papukaijamerkki yrittämisest
@@mursuhillo242 tarpeeks lähelle osu joka tapaiksessa.
Ian: "...also a lot of Arisakas, that's a subject for a latter video..."
Me, standing abruptly from the breakfast table slamming my coffee mug: "I need to know now!"
Wife, from living room: "What the hell is going on?"
The Russo-Japanese war of 1904-1905.
@@TheBuzzo72 you're supposed to say "spoiler alert."
I'm beginning to suspect Ian has some sort of bromance with Finland
We need all the love we can get.
Ian's video is clean.
....Now I fear what Karl's going to upload.....
Probably something along the lines of adding a picatinny rail and magnified optics to a blunderbuss.
@@bami2 Blunderbuss with Holosun red dot and quick detach magnifier.
I hope it's about a historical april fool's from the wild west.^^
Ian's April Fools post is on the Varusteleka channel.
@@catfish552 I didn't know, and I don't think I'm subbed to that channel.
your wealth of knowledge on firearms continues to amaze me, thank you for all the interesting videos, much appreciated!
he ain't called the gun jesus for no reason
Pre-roll of Ian putting cosmoline on his face for Varusteleka nice!
Love it Ian, absolutely fascinating!! Thanks for sharing...
6:50
Small correction, both regular pistol and hotter submachine gun 9 mm ammo was loaded and used in Finland. The SMG ammunition was marked as such (both on the box and with a black or green primer pocket sealant), but having mixups by a careless loader is not unheard-of.
THANKS for revisiting this subject.
According to some article I read this morning, Finland has the highest prison escape percentage in the EU, at about 10% of all prisoners will escape (and be recaptured). I don't know what prisons were like in the Winter/Continuation War, but in modern times, some of them are open air prisons with integration into local communities where inmates can find work, which makes it easy to escape, but also lowers recidivism and there's not much violent crime to begin with. When I visited the island of Suomenlinna, one section of the island is an active prison, where inmates have to repair parts of the old fort, and another section is the Finnish Navy Officer's school.
All this to say, I doubt the one marked with the Prison System markings was used much once it got transferred over.
The German Unit the Finns fought in was the Königlich Preußisches Reserve Jäger Bataillon Nr. 27.
Amazing content! Thanks for doing what you do.
I think vankeinhoitolaitos translates to correctional facility or akin to treatment of prisoners facility/institute
More of a overseeing administration than any particular facility or institute.
Was out shooting today in Ireland, 1st time in over a year. Need to improve my skills.
Same here practice makes perfect 🇨🇦
Did you get any Irishmen?
"Prisoner administration system", that's a brutal description for a gun (yeah, I know it's the organisation I prefer to think it's the function of the device)
I was hoping to hear about the Elbonian Luger. Maybe the next time one of the auction houses has them in stock. Regardless thanks for all the great content.
Happy Easter.
Steve
2:00 I think it's safe to say that Ian likes French pistols a little bit more than anyone.
People's heritage often attracts them to arms of a particular country. Its gotta be rough when a lot of that country's weapons really sucked. Gee, for Christmas I want a Chauchat and a Lebel rifle...
At least collecting them might be a little less expensive than others!🤣🤣🤣
Great Video. Yall take care and be safe, John
Then everyone ,even the French.
Super interesting. Looking forward to the Arisaka video, saw them in the civil war exhibition and wondered.
Fascinating video as usual. I think it's remarkable and interesting how so many different pre-WWI automatic pistols were still in service as late as the 1980s. The US 1911 is probably the best known here but there were Lugers, FN 1903 and no doubt others, too.
"Vainkeinhoitolaitos" Would more accurately be translated as "prisoner treatment institute" Reflecting the more rehabilitation focused view of prison vs US.
It appears to be a Ma-Duce, a Buzzsaw and a Pig, talk about being amongst your best friends who have your back :)
Nothing better on UA-cam than seeing Ian cover firearms from the fatherland! Didn't know all that about Lugers here in Finland, explains why I've seen them sold relatively cheaply in the very limited Finnish surplus market.
They would sell for good money if they got imported into the states.
@@33Luger I bet they would, but hopefully they won't so I'll have a chance to grab one if I ever get the permits. Even without that, I think it would be a shame if none were left here where they served. Just about the prices, there's one dealer in Finland who currently has a Fedoroff automatic rifle for sale for less than 5000€, I'm sure it would bring many times that in the US, I've never even seen one go for auction there. He has a Simonov as well... Oh how I wish I could get those, but it's a nightmare to get the permits for collecting firearms here unfortunately.
Really interesting!
Nice background setting too. :-)
"Anyway, im getting ahead of myself here" - No Ian, its fine, you go on.
Wow! This is a good April fool joke Ian, you even went through the trouble of putting images and information over the internet years before this video! You really had me there with the so-called "Finnish Lugers".
Perkele! Kyllä on hieno ase!
What a wonderful piece of gun and history!
wow great vid thanks Ian!!!
That MG42 in the background is looking mighty fine.
Thank you , Ian .
I've got one with a Tikka barrel fitted would have been done when it was converted to 9mm... it has the Army SA stamped on it.
Well, this video got interupted by that new Varusteleka commercial...which was hilarious.
Quite interesting. I learn so much from these videos. And you do a fine job in detail and relevant facts. Love it!
God bless all here.
Nice vid again! Greetings from Finland. These finnish guns are so fascinating especially as a finn
Dang... I was hoping for a silly April Fool's joke like "Guns of the Elbonian Very Special Forces" or "The 180 degree Krummlauf". A solid and informative video, though. 👍
For seriously bent barrels, check out one of the recent Demolition militia videos...
"Honey, what's wrong, you haven't finished your luger."
Finnished
A few of the long-barreled Finish Lugars came into Canada in 2005. One of the few factory Military Issue Luger Canadians can own, with the longer barrel.
These lugers have been finished
Ian, oh my gosh! I was just watching Brandon Herrera and your Varusteleka cosmoline ad popped up. Just came here to tell you that.
when a finnish pew pew handcannon has more history than some countries
Great video!
The front post is probably from Lahti pistol. Common modification here in Finland.
Tikka barrel 9mm
I bought a kit to put together a Luger. It wasn't coming out right. I didn't finnish it. I just tuned in to see what it was supposed to look like.
The handles on these units appear to have an option of a shoulder stock! any indication there was ever a shoulder stock for Finland?
Good morning Ian!
Great video, but I was really hoping for a video on the Municion L.M.P. 1889 Mk 2**
Ian just bubbles with historic interest. Finland is his second love after France.
Only Ian could present against a backdrop includeing the 3 most popular mgs lol Ma Duece, Buzzsaw and M60.
Thank you! Today I’ve bought P08 from the Finnish contract. Marking “SA”, 120mm barrel TIKKA 9mm, perfect condition. Your video helped me to understand few details I didn’t know about it. On my one there is 1915 on the top… I don’t understand why - did they buy in the 1920’s pistol produced in 1915?
Ian: "Some guy, up north in Finland"
Me: "Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?"
about 3 dudes tbh
@@KrankuSama nah, ya be forgetting the two others are a British tourist and an invading Russian red army cadet
I have a Luger that I've been told is a Finnish police luger, but I have serious doubts about this. It has police- like markings on the front of the grip, and is chambered in .30 Luger, but has an LP08 length barrel and rear sight. I always assumed that the guy I hear this from was right, but it has no discernible Finnish markings on it, so I'm a bit lost now
Lugers were in service with Finnish police from the 30s through the 70s, by which time they were mostly used for practice. Src: www.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/163412/ON_Kalliomäki.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
@@markusr353 I see that the normal P08 variant was used, but I don't see any reference to the long barreled LP08 model, unless I am missing something.
Great vid as always! We made the submarines in Finland. I guess you could say we bought them. But it was domestic. Just a small point. Love your vids as always.
My service pistol in FDF was F&N High Power. It had been used so much that it was like a rattlesnake. Thanks from the video Ian again. You are almost half-finnish by now 😎🇫🇮
Great 👍 one loved this film
Great work
Looks like Ian is making this video inside lorry box, meanwhile is on the road to battle action :D
Here in Finland these pistols are called as Parabellum, exept the videogame generation refers those as Luger.
My dad called it a Luger, he had one in the '70s.
The camera taking its sweet time focusing.
Excelent video!, I've a doubt: , the golden letters and symbols, witch metal are made of? gold? bronze? just paint? Greetings from Argentina
From 12:10 onward, was Ian referring to a "double action Hi-Power"? I'd be very interested in seeing one of those if possible!
Presume he means the BDA9.
@@skepticalbadger Oh, that one? Maybe. That BDA is pretty much a forgotten weapon in its own right and has not even been featured in Forgotten Weapons yet. I had a feeling that had the people at FN designed the look of a slide of that pistol a little bit differently, it might have had much better reception from the market. And just as all the double-stack, double-action 1911’s didn’t affect the huge demand and popularity of the classic 1911, I don’t think the BDA would have cut too deep into the consumers’ desire to get an original Hi-Power either.
Anyway, I’d love to see Ian talk about and take apart an FN BDA 9x19 one day!
why did they replace the barrell? is it not possible to drill it bigger?
The Finnish movie about the Continuation War, "The Unknown Soldier", shows Finnish soldiers carrying Lugers: www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Unknown_Soldier_(2017)
I remember my grandfather (army officer and veteran of the winter war) talking about they lugers the had in service. He didn´t like them at all. He also told me about how they made "lugers" out of lead for dry practice.
An April Fool's video so subtle, only true firearms experts can discern which part of this was fake.
Just chilling with an M2 Browning, an MG-42, & an M-60.
That's interesting and cool! Thanks
Maybe he's born with it.
Maybe its Cosmoline!
Who doesn't love a Luger?
Not to be confused with the Luger in Soviet service, _the Gulager._
Get a Clu
I'm a sucker for a Luger at a reasonable price point.. Good luck finding one of those.
I am enjoying it!!! The inches to cm ratio, how the 7 years by 2 thousand equal to 8 thousand. I ADORE submarines equipped with Luger pistols!!!! I know that I didn't catch even half of perfectly tailored bs, so will need to listen to it again. Thank you Ian!
Aaaand thats another luger going on ian's shelf
Have you reviewed Lahti pistols yet?
Good episode
Being German/Finnish would love an original 7.65 Luger! Good info on their history.
Considering the date, I expected this to be about the Elbonian contract
You can just imagine how many reds were executed by those pistols.