The Training Flight From Hell | The Crash Of TWA 5787

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  • Опубліковано 29 жов 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 211

  • @MiniAirCrashInvestigation
    @MiniAirCrashInvestigation  2 роки тому +16

    How 3 AMAZING Pilots Made A Near Impossible Landing | Eastern Airlines Flight 935: ua-cam.com/video/qe76JiK0ymo/v-deo.html

    • @flightstreamer4216
      @flightstreamer4216 2 роки тому +1

      I noticed you are in Microsoft flight simulator X why is that

  • @gerardmoran9560
    @gerardmoran9560 2 роки тому +176

    Heartbreaking. I was a C-141 instructor pilot in the '80s. The C-141 is a 4-engine high-altitude, high-speed transport with similar numbers as the 707, but a bit slower due to the thick wing for airdrop capability. In instructor school we were told over and over not to let "a simulated failure result in an actual mishap". If something seems wrong, terminate the simulated emergency and fly the jet.

    • @unvergebeneid
      @unvergebeneid 2 роки тому +21

      Seems like an extremely obvious thing to do. The fact that it wasn't obvious for any one of the five people on board is just mind boggling.

    • @rob737700
      @rob737700 2 роки тому +7

      Unfortunately it's happened over and over again since then...

    • @ilovecops5499
      @ilovecops5499 2 роки тому

      WHAT F THE SMULATE DTURNS UN A REAL POWER LOASS., RHEWNWHAT?

    • @unvergebeneid
      @unvergebeneid 2 роки тому +12

      @@ilovecops5499 are you alright?

    • @ilovecops5499
      @ilovecops5499 2 роки тому

      @@unvergebeneid HELLO MISTERE PENNEY LANES BEETELS! THAN YOU FO RHT COPLIMENT BU I IZ NOT GOOD ENOUG TO BE TRAFELLING WILLBERRS...
      End Of The Line
      Traveling Wilburys
      Well it's alright, riding around in the breeze
      Well it's alright, if you live the life you please
      Well it's alright, doing the best you can
      Well it's alright, as long as you lend a hand
      You can sit around and wait for the phone to ring
      (At the end of the line)
      Waiting for someone to tell you everything
      THANS YOU ANS THUBBS, UP. I AM SMOKING TH BEARS AND I SHALL CONTROL WTH EARTH SIN 48-72 OF YOUR EARTHE HOURES😁🐻🐻🐻🦏🦏🦣🐱🐻🐻🐻🦏🦏🦬
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  • @ianbell8701
    @ianbell8701 2 роки тому +45

    I enjoy your videos very much. Please keep up the good work. Having been a 707/720 flight engineer many decades ago, a couple of clarifications are in order - my apologies for the length of this comment. The only hydraulically-boosted primary flight control on the 707/720 is the rudder. The INBOARD and OUTBOARD SPOILERS are also hydraulically actuated. Elevator and aileron operation are by manual pilot inputs only. Tabs on the trailing edge of the control surfaces assist in moving the ailerons and elevators. The 707/720 has two separate hydraulic systems - UTILITY and AUXILIARY (AUX). The AUX system powers the RUDDER and the INBOARD SPOILERS. The UTILITY system powers the FLAPS, LANDING GEAR, NOSE WHEEL STEERING, BRAKES and the OUTBOARD SPOILERS. The UTILITY and AUX hydraulic systems can be connected only on the ground through the SYSTEM INTERCONNECT SWITCH which requires external ground power to be connected to the aircraft to change valve position. If the hydraulic lines supplying the OUTBOARD SPOILERs failed, the UTILITY system would be depleted. We know this was the case because neither the flaps or gear changed position after the hydraulic failure and the flap and gear handles were repositioned. The hydraulic quantity gauge on the F/E panel would have read zero and the two engine driven hydraulic pump low-pressure lights would have been illuminated (F/O's lower instrument panel). The AUX SYSTEM RESERVOIR is supplied by a stand-pipe in the UTILITY SYSTEM RESERVOIR (at the 3.2 gallon level). Even with the UTILITY system reading zero, the AUX system would have been available to power the RUDDER and the INBOARD SPOILERS. Turning OFF all pumps skipped the most important part of the HYDRAULIC SYSTEM ABNORMAL PROCEDURE - identification of the affected system followed by the appropriate procedures.
    On the 707/720 the airborne directional control in an engine-out situation is provided primarily by the rudder and to some degree by the ailerons. The VMCA (minimum control speed - air) with a hydraulically boosted rudder is around 117 knots (all speeds are for the -300). With no rudder boost pressure, the 3-ENGINE VMCA is much higher ~ 175 knots. When the crew selected all four pump switches OFF (UTILITY: 2 engine-driven, AUX: 2 electric pumps) the rudder was no longer powered and could only be positioned manually. In manual mode the rudder authority is only 13-degrees compared to 26-degrees when powered. With the outboard engine at idle simulating a three-engine approach, when the crew brought the remaining three engines to go-around power, the aircraft was well below the 3-ENGINE RUDDER BOOST OFF VMCA and they lost control of the aircraft as a result. This accident was often used as a training aide during recurrent simulator training. It is an excellent example of the critical importance of detailed systems knowledge during abnormal and emergency situations. Quite literally the difference between life and death. The flying crew were Captain Donald Sklarin (38), Captain Harry D. Caines (56), and flight engineer Frank J. Jonke (29). Unfortunately I do not know the names of the other two crew members.

    • @EMDWDG4
      @EMDWDG4 2 роки тому +5

      This is one of the longest comments I have ever seen! But good to hear the problem from an actual 707 pilot.

    • @cbuchner1
      @cbuchner1 2 роки тому +7

      A comment better than the video itself.

    • @EMDWDG4
      @EMDWDG4 2 роки тому

      @@cbuchner1 Yeah lol

    • @steveewing9601
      @steveewing9601 2 роки тому +4

      All I can say is that I am very certain that if you had been in that cockpit that day no way would we be watching this video today! Astounding! you level of understanding of that particular aircraft’s systems! Well Done!!!

    • @ianbell8701
      @ianbell8701 2 роки тому +3

      @@steveewing9601 Thank you for those kind words. The cost for my detailed knowledge of the aircraft was paid for by the loss of such men as these.

  • @geoffedmonds6507
    @geoffedmonds6507 2 роки тому +100

    Amazing that 5 people had to die because they flew the plane as if the fourth engine was actually damaged, and the fact no one called for the hydraulic pumps to be switched back on just to see if they could have gained anymore control? Heartbreaking.

    • @mauricedavis2160
      @mauricedavis2160 2 роки тому

      🙏😢🛫

    • @nicholasjohnson778
      @nicholasjohnson778 2 роки тому +2

      As far as I understand things, they had zero hydraulics on the hydraulic circuit that had failed and they were attempting to diagnose and restore hydraulic power at the time the aircraft began to roll.
      Turning off the pumps didn’t cause the problem… it was the broken hydraulic line.
      What went wrong was that they spent the last precious seconds trying to fix the hydraulics instead of first bringing the power up on number 4 which would have given them far more time to correct the hydraulic problem.

    • @m118lr
      @m118lr 2 роки тому +2

      Correct. Never bringing the hyd pumps BACK online COMBINED WITH #4…AND to add (apparently) a ‘task saturated’ environment in the cockpit, things compounded between the 2 pilots to lose situational awareness. A LOT OF MOVING PARTS HERE..

  • @b.t.356
    @b.t.356 2 роки тому +66

    Wow. Scary stuff. For whatever reason, this reminds me of not only the Eastern Air Lines loss of hydraulics landing, but also United Airlines Flight 232. The more I think about it, the happier I am that CRM has improved throughout the years. I felt as if the CRM wasn't too great in this one (although 1960s CRM is likely a very far cry from 21st century CRM), and that CRM was a big help in the EAL and UA cases.

    • @sarahalbers5555
      @sarahalbers5555 2 роки тому +7

      Thanks for your comment. I was working a DC 10 flight from DEN-IAD that day. And I had flown that DC 10 many times. ( for UA).

    • @starwarzchik112
      @starwarzchik112 2 роки тому +1

      Also Japan Airlines 123. Lost all hydraulics *and* the vertical stabilizer. It was the deadliest single-aircraft accident in history.

    • @b.t.356
      @b.t.356 2 роки тому +2

      @@starwarzchik112 That one is so freaking sad. 520 people had to lose their lives in a preventable crash all due to negligent maintenance. What's worse is that more people could have survived, but American military personnel were ordered to not go to the crash site and to turn back.

    • @starwarzchik112
      @starwarzchik112 2 роки тому +2

      @@b.t.356 And it killed two more people who were nowhere _near_ the crash site. Both the maintenance worker who signed off on the faulty bulkhead and his supervisor killed themselves.
      God, no other air crash haunts me like JAL 123. T_T

    • @potato1907
      @potato1907 2 роки тому

      wait are you talking about the 1965 carmel mid air collision?

  • @jacekatalakis8316
    @jacekatalakis8316 2 роки тому +54

    So many questions with this one. Not that they were doing training flights in actual aircrat which was standard procedure. I'm just shaking my head at the training pilot not abandoning the test.

    • @donwilson4618
      @donwilson4618 2 роки тому +19

      Exactly right on. If an actual system failure occurs check ride is over. Return the aircraft to normal operation as much as possible and land. Take heart that this type of check ride is no longer allowed in an actual aircraft - at least in the USA. All training, proficiency checks and type ratings are now done in full motion simulators.

    • @briant7265
      @briant7265 2 роки тому +3

      Narrator: Engines 1, 2 and 3...
      Us: and 4. Training is over.
      Pilot: Where's the checklist?
      Point being, we aren't working with more than the pilots had. I'm sure many of us caught that error on the fly. It's that obvious.

    • @georgeconway4360
      @georgeconway4360 7 місяців тому

      The simulators of the day did not suck. They were the technology that was available. At the time the ALPA contract at my company required a Captain in training to get 14 hours in the airplane before taking his FAA type rating check ride. It was very expensive to train pilots in those days plus the problem of finding an airplane to be used. In 1969 when I was a new hire DC8 F/O my company sent us to EAL for simulator and airplane training. At the end of 1979 I went to 747 training and all the training was in the simulator with a check ride but then an airplane ride was also required which I did 7 touch&go’s and one full stop landing. When I had my first opportunity to fly Captain it was in the B727 which I had never flown. The Type Rating ride was in the simulator but a single 1:25 airplane ride was required to complete it. In 1987 I went to DC8 Captain took most of the check ride in the simulator and the balance in the airplane. Then in 1992 I went to the MD11 which was brand new and the company had only three when I completed training. The full type rating ride was given in the simulator which used a full four hour simulator period with a short break in the middle. My first time touching the actual airplane was as a student flying with a check airman from Anchorage to Tokyo. Then Tokyo to Taipei and Hong Kong. Hong Kong to Anchorage. Then Anchorage to Memphis for the completion of the IOE (Initial Operating Experience). My company had one more step for the final sign off which they called a Standards Ride. The new Captain had to fly two legs with a Check Airman in the jump seat and a normal line First Officer. The only restrictions were high minimums which you had to raise your DA and MDA by 100’ and I believe the RVR limit had to be increased.The second limitation was you could not let the F/O land for the first 100 hours. There was also a requirement for 300 hours to fly a CAT3 approach but I recall that was a minimum total Captain time.
      That TWA airplane could have been saved by adding power to the #4 engine but a quicker result would have been reducing thrust on the #1 Engine. There is far less lag in reducing thrust plus it was the thrust on #1 that was causing loss of control. Delta also had a terrible DC8 in New Orleans when they were simulating the loss of two engines. The crashed into a hotel/motel and killed a number of high school students staying there. If you are flying any multi engine airplane from an C-310 to a B747 if you start losing directional control is you should reduce the power that is causing the problem. Far better to hit something wings level than with lots of bank or inverted.

  • @MrSuzuki1187
    @MrSuzuki1187 2 роки тому +35

    Very well done!! And this from a 30,000 hour retired airline pilot.

  • @loriepaix6391
    @loriepaix6391 2 роки тому +19

    "I think that this is why they all died."
    "Ok, let's take another plane up, recreate the same scenario and see if we can survive."

    • @Finder245
      @Finder245 2 роки тому +2

      Most likely at a much much higher altitude with additional preparation for the test. ;)

  • @cornishcat11
    @cornishcat11 2 роки тому +11

    your videos are getting better and better. keep it up mate

  • @jamesgraham6122
    @jamesgraham6122 2 роки тому +24

    I'm puzzled about the narrative stating several times that the 'pilots' turned off the hydraulic pumps. The 707 had a flight engineer, surely it was him that would have turned off the pumps unbeknown to the flight crew. Why they didn't instinctively call for power to be restored to No4 will forever remain a mystery.
    All I can say is that during a 35 year career as a professional pilot followed by several years as an instructor in simulators, it is amazing what even highly qualified, capable and experienced pilots can do when under stress. Not typically, just on rare occasions, but outside of the simulator, it needs only to happen once.

    • @WMAcadet
      @WMAcadet 2 роки тому +2

      On the 707, the hydraulic system controls and gauges are not on the F/E panel. They are located at the lower end of the F/O instrument panel, so the copilot operates them.

    • @jamesgraham6122
      @jamesgraham6122 2 роки тому

      @@WMAcadet thanks for that!! Interesting..well done

  • @FlywithMagnar
    @FlywithMagnar 2 роки тому +52

    This training went too far. I have done similar flight training in an actual aircraft (simulator was not avaliable). But we never switched off any systems as described in the checklists. We just pointed at the switch and said "simulated OFF".

    • @marksmith8079
      @marksmith8079 2 роки тому +5

      How do you simulate off an engine? They had to turn off the hydraulics as they had a hydraulic failure.

  • @briant7265
    @briant7265 2 роки тому +21

    My first, immediate thought was, "end simulation, bring engine 4 back". Literally as they were powering up 1, 2 and 3. Checklists are great, but there are reasons for having humans in the cockpit. Like when you don't have a checklist for, "Hydraulic failure while conducting training/practice of climbing out with a failed engine."

  • @fk319fk
    @fk319fk 2 роки тому +19

    In the 80s I was able to see a "flight simulator". It had no screens for video but was full of buttons and dials. It was more of a procedural trainer. Sitting in the cockpit seat, it looked like an airplane cockpit. Behind this, it was wide open and there was room for trainers and observers.

    • @KB4QAA
      @KB4QAA 2 роки тому

      Yes. So? That's how it was... Doesn't stop you from doing anything but visual manuevers.

    • @ottonormalverbrauch3794
      @ottonormalverbrauch3794 2 роки тому +3

      There was a Friendship cockpit in the Fokker factory that supplied some basic functions to train ground crews how certain systems worked and were connected. It is now in a museum and I looked at some 'systems'; there were some low and hi freq sound oscillators and shaped noise generators to imitate the RR Dart engines revving up, as heard in the cockpit. There were voltage bus simulations but all pretty basic so actual pilot trainings were done in real life thus not void of risk.

  • @Steveman61
    @Steveman61 2 роки тому +20

    Biggest mystery for me is why the check pilot did not immediately bring engine 4 back into life and cancelled the test. They were very low and he must have known that there is no room for trying things. So sad...

    • @briant7265
      @briant7265 2 роки тому +6

      It wasn't on the hydraulic pressure checklist. I don't mean this sarcastically. I just strongly suspect they went straight to "checklist mode" without thinking about it.

    • @Steveman61
      @Steveman61 2 роки тому +2

      @@briant7265 I know what you mean and yes could have been the reason.

  • @KuvDabGib
    @KuvDabGib 2 роки тому +4

    i never heard about this crash. Thank you for making this video and for explaining to us what went wrong!

  • @jamesstuart3346
    @jamesstuart3346 2 роки тому +4

    Watching this I was screaming "full power on engine 4!!!!" They couldn't hear me

  • @cbuchner1
    @cbuchner1 2 роки тому +12

    Why does the checklist even call for turning off the hydraulic pumps if generally the interconnect valve between the hydraulic systems stays closed? That’s a dangerous check list that needlessly removes layers of redundancy.

    • @Finder245
      @Finder245 2 роки тому

      The 707 has hydraulic assist for the rudder, but it can be flown without hydraulics. It does take more force though to get the same deflection on the rudder. If they increased speed to 180knots or brought back engine 4, they would have been fine because they would not have needed so much force to counteract the yaw from the engines. The checklist was clearly intended to help diagnose hydraulics issues while in less critical situations.

  • @lashamartashvili
    @lashamartashvili 2 роки тому +9

    Proficiency tests back then were something like natural selection - effective, but brutal and unethical.

  • @NakedMuso
    @NakedMuso 2 роки тому +2

    Really clear and easy to follow explanation as usual. Thanks a lot.

  • @Kefir-fw2qf
    @Kefir-fw2qf 2 роки тому +1

    Hi. Thank you for another excellent video. I thought you may want to look at the crash of Japan Air Lines Flight 350.

  • @SSJ3ultimate
    @SSJ3ultimate 2 роки тому +3

    I love this channel.

  • @bonnerscott5374
    @bonnerscott5374 2 роки тому

    Clinical Precision in the details is nice.

  • @johnc.7076
    @johnc.7076 Рік тому

    Great video... as usual !! You always deliver !!

  • @youcantata
    @youcantata 2 роки тому +10

    Why did they turn off *all* three hydraulic pumps, when only one hydraulic system is bleeding and broken? Isn't it obvious that turning off all pumps will render aircraft uncontrollable without hydraulic power to control? Does the three engine lading procedure checklist call for all pump off? Geez... strange behavior.

    • @starwarzchik112
      @starwarzchik112 2 роки тому

      The captain was a little behind, and wanted to get his “all hydraulics out” test done at the same time. Sadly he never made it to the “vertical stabilizer gone” test, the in-flight fire test, the deep stall test, the “all engines out” test, the runway incursion test, or the final test, which is just all of the above 😛

  • @mattmatt350
    @mattmatt350 2 роки тому +21

    I cant wrap my head around this. Why did they turn the pumps off? Especially that close to the airport. I'm sure thats not part of the engine out checklist and any residual pressure in the hydraulic system could have lasted a while longer. If anyone with any familiarity with the 707 could let me know.

    • @ScottDLR
      @ScottDLR 2 роки тому +25

      The check list told them to. The problem was they stopped mid-way in the CL (to discuss landing gear) and never got back to the part of the CL that told them to turn the pumps back on.
      At least that's the way I understood it. Crazy!

    • @tyrotrainer765
      @tyrotrainer765 2 роки тому +7

      @@ScottDLR He said there were 5 POB; I'm assuming they had a flight engineer? If so, WTF was he playing at?

    • @stephenj4937
      @stephenj4937 2 роки тому +2

      @@ScottDLR No, the issue was that with asymmetric thrust and the rudder hydraulically diverted, the rudder will not revert back to manual control automatically. They needed to get engine 4 back up to speed to reduce the asymmetric thrust OR increase their airspeed to 180 kts which is the minimum controllable airspeed with an engine out. Had they done either of these they would have regained control of the aircraft, as there are cable controls for all flight surfaces.

    • @stephenj4937
      @stephenj4937 2 роки тому +1

      @@tyrotrainer765 According to the NTSB report, the flight engineer was likely monitoring the captain's instruments (altitude, etc) during landing, as was standard procedure. So he never saw the low hydraulic warning on his panel. The rest of the problems (failure to increase airspeed or restoring engine 4 thrust) lie on the training pilot's failure to complete the checklist.

    • @tyrotrainer765
      @tyrotrainer765 2 роки тому +3

      @@stephenj4937 Fair enough; however NO FE I ever flew with would have let a pilot turn off all hydraulics and leave them off. He'd have known those systems intimately, probably far deeper than the pilots. My gut feeling is that the FE here had a (passive/non-assertive) part to play in the captain's failure to complete the checklist.

  • @fredfred2363
    @fredfred2363 2 роки тому +1

    With any genuine hydraulic system problem, it is almost impossible to figure what the fault is until you land. And you only have a finite amount of hydraulic fluid which is leaking away (probably).

  • @JohnMckeown-dl2cl
    @JohnMckeown-dl2cl Рік тому

    This crash was very sad for me on a personal level. The older brother of a childhood friend was one of the pilots on this training flight. He was a first officer in training to be upgraded to captain on this flight and was in the first class cabin awaiting his turn to do the simulated scenario.. As you said the simulators of the time sucked and this was the only way that training/practice for certain situations could be conducted. A lot of pilots were unfortunately lost in both civilian and military aircraft at the time since there was no other way to practice. Fortunately we have come a long way in simulator tech and lives do not have to be put at risk so that lives can be saved in a real emergency.

  • @anhedonianepiphany5588
    @anhedonianepiphany5588 2 роки тому +2

    Can someone please explain why the checklist for failure of a single isolated hydraulic circuit would include switching off the full complement of hydraulic pumps? I realise that in the event of a leak you’ve got to prevent loss of fluid as much as possible, but with a redundant system like this won’t turning off the pumps inevitably lead to complete loss of control, which is ultimately the far less likely worst case scenario (all redundancies compromised) when keeping them pumping?

  • @JulioHernandez-gw2bp
    @JulioHernandez-gw2bp 2 роки тому +3

    Fight engineer has control of the hyd pumps. Emergency checklist were confused which is normally performed by the Fight engineer and confirmed by the Capt. in control of the plane.

    • @WMAcadet
      @WMAcadet 2 роки тому +1

      No, no, the Hydraulic System on the 707 is at the lower end of the F/O instrument panel. All of the ones I flew were that way... -321B, -324C, -327C, -338C, -347C, etc.

  • @maxtornogood
    @maxtornogood 2 роки тому +3

    At that point I wouldn't care about continuing the test, engine 4 had to come back on immediately!

  • @nickolasmallcott4399
    @nickolasmallcott4399 2 роки тому

    Excellent clear understanding for all.

  • @yomommaahotoo264
    @yomommaahotoo264 2 роки тому +2

    So....Yes folks - the checklist is never to blame.

  • @deannazee6368
    @deannazee6368 2 роки тому +1

    After all the videos I watch pertaining to airplanes and crashes therein, the next time that I fly I want to see the maintenance history of the airplane 1 as well as the pilots flying history 2 and I think that in itself should become a STANDARD for airlines just like we want to know who’s driving the Uber that we call 🤷‍♀️

  • @moonrust4939
    @moonrust4939 2 роки тому +2

    Mini air crash investigation, could you do UAL232?

  • @angrybaba9964
    @angrybaba9964 2 роки тому +12

    1:55 FYI you told runway 13, but the plane aligned to runway 31. Love your work though....

    • @simonw3872
      @simonw3872 2 роки тому +5

      Runway 310° is 130° if you are going the other way (180 degrees)

    • @glennchartrand5411
      @glennchartrand5411 2 роки тому +1

      The runway number is the first two digits of the heading.
      So a runway that runs due east-west will be 09 on the West end and 27 on the East end (090⁰ and 270⁰)
      So runway 13 ( 130⁰) turns into 31 ( 310⁰) from the other end.
      So one end is marked "13" and the other is "31"
      It's done this way so the Pilot not only knows which runway to use , but which end he's taking off from or landing on and he also knows ( roughly) which way the runway runs so when he's told to take off on runway "27" but when he looks at his compass he sees "243⁰" he knows he turned onto the wrong runway.

  • @stefeniedavidmusic
    @stefeniedavidmusic 2 роки тому +7

    It is beyond me why they didn't bring the idled engine back up to full power. I just don't understand that. Its not something that is required on a checklist for God's sake, it's common sense.

    • @briant7265
      @briant7265 2 роки тому +4

      The checklist is written for "otherwise normal" operation. There is no step for, "If you have an engine idled for a training run, bring it back up." It's still bizarre that they didn't think of it themselves.

  • @alandickerson3379
    @alandickerson3379 2 роки тому +1

    Thanks for another great video!!

  • @dianericciardistewart2224
    @dianericciardistewart2224 2 роки тому

    Excellent presentation and explanation!! Thanks!! 👍✈✈👍

  • @Firestorm637
    @Firestorm637 2 роки тому +1

    Sadly, many emergencies occur at the worst possible time like takeoffs and landings. Not much time to make it right the first time or else. Series of events that start to snowball. Sad

  • @BrainWasherAttendent
    @BrainWasherAttendent 2 роки тому +1

    I’ve been watching these kinds of videos lately and I wonder if pilots have much exposure to this type of information in this way. I feel like it would be greatly beneficial.

  • @PJHEATERMAN
    @PJHEATERMAN 2 роки тому +1

    Not bringing number 4 up right away is a big factor.

  • @shnob4916
    @shnob4916 2 роки тому +1

    "Limited by the technology of their time"
    Don't think I didn't notice this

  • @judymotto74
    @judymotto74 2 роки тому

    Thanks for all you do 💯✋

  • @josephliptak
    @josephliptak 4 місяці тому

    The 707 is a beautiful bird. Sure miss seeing those big smokey planes in the air.

  • @brianford8493
    @brianford8493 2 роки тому +1

    I'm not a pilot but the first thought was 'Start that engine'...never nice to see someone Augering in.

  • @nicholasjohnson778
    @nicholasjohnson778 2 роки тому

    This is a tough one, almost all the comments are suggesting that bring back the number 4 is a no brainer; and in hindsight it is.
    However, imagine you’re in this situation… you’re underpowered but maintaining a safe airspeed and established in a climb. Then you realize you’re hydraulic level on hydraulic circuit in use is indicating zero also confirmed by unresponsive gear and flaps.
    You know that zero hydraulics will rapidly if not already equate to unresponsive primary flight controls.
    So which would you prefer while the seconds tick by… more power to improve your climb rate or use of your flight controls?
    Many emergency procedures are memorized, at least the portions that require an immediate response. Perhaps this was one of them.
    The bottom line is that checklists and their memorized portions do not often capture every conceivable combination of events… I have a feeling this one probably didn’t have a HUGE warning before it instructing pilots to minimize asymmetric thrust before initiating, but I bet it did after the accident.
    Anyway, y’all are right get the plane normal and then deal with the real emergency… I just feel for the crew because they were dealt a terrible hand with only seconds to figure out a survivable sequence of responses.

  • @yorkshirebikerbitsnbobs
    @yorkshirebikerbitsnbobs 2 роки тому +2

    Yay! Another video!! Always enjoy them. Thanks.

  • @myrecreationalchannel7181
    @myrecreationalchannel7181 2 роки тому +17

    Why is turning off the pumps part of the checklist? I assume there must be a reason but I don't know what that reason could be. Could someone explain please?

    • @philhughes3882
      @philhughes3882 2 роки тому +5

      I can only think it’s to absolutely ensure they’re turned ON afterwards.

    • @TheaSvendsen
      @TheaSvendsen 2 роки тому +3

      This is what I came to the comment section to ask! Usually, this channel always explains why so I don’t know why it was left out this time? It seems really counterproductive to turn them all off. Also, I wonder if there’s any way to check if the main valve, that he spoke about, is intact?

    • @ziiofswe
      @ziiofswe 2 роки тому +7

      My wild guess is to prevent further loss of hydraulic fluid. There should of course be more steps, like starting them one at a time and compare pressure (or flow or something) to see which one is losing oil, and then keep that one shut off but start the others back up to get back controls.
      Not a procedure to do at low altitude of course...

    • @anthonywilliams9852
      @anthonywilliams9852 2 роки тому

      @@ziiofswe... and with engine no 4 turned off.

  • @rager1969
    @rager1969 2 роки тому +3

    It blows my mind that they would spend the time and money doing live test like this and that they would take the risk. Weren't they aware that if there is a mistake, you could crash the plane and kill people on the plane and the ground?

  • @KB4QAA
    @KB4QAA 2 роки тому +2

    You never answered why the hydro pumps had burned residue...

  • @skipgetelman3418
    @skipgetelman3418 2 роки тому +7

    Why the hell wouldn’t you restore number four right away Then the plane would not want to roll over

    • @acr98disc
      @acr98disc 2 роки тому +3

      They wouldn't have enough time for that, not at this altitude

    • @luv2fly745
      @luv2fly745 2 роки тому +4

      Exactly 💯, my first thought too. The engine was operational.

    • @supertekkel1
      @supertekkel1 2 роки тому +2

      My first thought too

    • @jpoconnor5744
      @jpoconnor5744 2 роки тому +3

      Right! In the face of a real issue, remove the independent known issue, especially one as critical as engine out.
      Clearly they did not work methodically. Partially completed checklists are a great way to make things worse and not restoring engine 4 right away just compounded everything.

    • @luv2fly745
      @luv2fly745 2 роки тому +2

      @@jpoconnor5744 It didn't take a checklist to recover the engine they "failed". That's Flying 101. In an emergency, the first thing you do is FLY THE PLANE!

  • @ryanfrisby7389
    @ryanfrisby7389 2 роки тому +1

    Wow, that’s terrifying!

  • @RipRoaringGarage
    @RipRoaringGarage Рік тому

    Theres a lot wrong here. The ailerons worked just fine, since they are cable driven. It was the rudder that stopped working because they turned off ALL pumps. Add to that leading edge slats that retracted earlier on the failed pump side, that already had less thrust, causing the bank. Had they brought no 4 back up to TRT, they would have caught their mistake, but it was common back then to use both failures, one simulated, one real as a teachable moment. In this case, it was tragic.

  • @starwarzchik112
    @starwarzchik112 2 роки тому

    “Okay. You’ve passed the ‘engine out’ test, now let’s try the ‘all hydraulics out’ test. Good luck!”

  • @aeomaster32
    @aeomaster32 2 роки тому

    Well done video. Thank you.

  • @ColinGriffin-tl6oi
    @ColinGriffin-tl6oi 6 місяців тому

    I live 20 minutes From A/C/ pomona airport. I'm born and raised in new jersey. and I never knew why they called it the. atlantic city airport. When it's 40 minutes from atlantic city.

  • @carlgulbransen4852
    @carlgulbransen4852 2 роки тому

    Runway 31 is the runway you mentioned while looking at the runway numbers upside down, 13.

  • @Kr0noZ
    @Kr0noZ 2 роки тому +1

    Here's a question: Is there no way of telling the pressure levels for the different systems apart? Turning off all pumps would make sense to me if the crew believed ALL hydraulics to be drained, otherwise making sure the interconnect valve is closed and turning off the pumps for the damaged system would do just fine, no?

  • @MinneapolisRaven
    @MinneapolisRaven 2 роки тому +11

    This reminds me of a certain Soviet nuclear reactor safety test.
    When conducting a dangerous test, if something real goes wrong, stop the test!
    If HBO's Chernobyl is accurate, that crew had some pretty bad CRM too.

  • @billolsen4360
    @billolsen4360 2 роки тому

    All that talent on the flight deck and this happens.

  • @catreader9733
    @catreader9733 2 роки тому

    I have no flight training and little knowledge. But when the narrator first said (long before presenting the diagnosis) "turned off (all) the hydraulics pumps", I thought, "No, that can't be a good thing," and listened to hear why I was wrong. I wasn't.

  • @EdgyShooter
    @EdgyShooter 2 роки тому

    So it was a mistake in the training combined with a fractured line, what a sad combination of errors

  • @balazslengyel6950
    @balazslengyel6950 2 роки тому +4

    Was there no analysis of the human factor? Why did eperienced pilots do such errors?

  • @balazslengyel6950
    @balazslengyel6950 2 роки тому +3

    You said the FAA brought a lot of changes, but you don't say what. Frustrating.

  • @luketmarx
    @luketmarx 2 роки тому +1

    So, it seems to me they should only have shut off the hydraulic system that had the failure. Granted, maybe they didn’t know which one it was. But it seems to me it would’ve been better just to leave all pumps on and let the bad one bleed out if they were isolated from each other. At least the three good ones would still have worked? I wonder why the checklist has them shut them all off?

    • @johnwolf2349
      @johnwolf2349 2 роки тому +1

      Seems kinda pointless to shut off hydrualics voluntarily if you have a failure anyway, yeah. Either they're redundant and you get to keep the non-leaking ones, or they aren't and you were going to lose all pressure anyway... But you'd have gotten at least another few seconds of full control by just not shutting it off entirely!

  • @starpawsy
    @starpawsy 2 роки тому

    Minor point regarding the sim. It is highly unlikely that the landing lights in the 1960s would have been PAPI-4s.

  • @pseudotasuki
    @pseudotasuki 2 роки тому +1

    Why did the checklist have them shut down *all* of the hydraulic pumps?

  • @mikecarroll5853
    @mikecarroll5853 2 роки тому +1

    They disabled their control surfaces and killed themselves. I can hear Bob Hoover now...

  • @mobilenutshell648
    @mobilenutshell648 2 роки тому +2

    woah nice one

  • @cturdo
    @cturdo 2 роки тому

    TWA also had 2 Jetstars configured to B707 and B727 cockpits.

  • @Chishannicon
    @Chishannicon 2 роки тому +1

    I don't know much about aviation, so forgive my ignorance, but can anyone tell me why it's even possible for a pilot to turn off the hydraulic pumps? Is there a situation where this would be necessary?

  • @vondahe
    @vondahe 2 роки тому

    TW5787 departed three hours after I was born. Never came across any other events on my birth date.

  • @Baylow94
    @Baylow94 2 роки тому +1

    By any chance, do you have/know any investigations involving the Colorado Telluride Regional Airport? It's such a fascinating and interesting airport

    • @odinsson204
      @odinsson204 2 роки тому +1

      Oh man, that would be a good one.

    • @Baylow94
      @Baylow94 2 роки тому +1

      @@odinsson204 The airport is so cool. Especially the measures they put in place to prevent planes from going over the edges

    • @odinsson204
      @odinsson204 2 роки тому +1

      @@Baylow94 yes!! I live about 100 miles away and been to the airport a couple of times. It’s a beaut for sure. You better know what you are doing at that airport.

    • @Baylow94
      @Baylow94 2 роки тому

      @@odinsson204 Lucky! I don't know if I'll ever be in Colorado, I would love to see it in person.
      Definitely! If the pilot doesn't know what they're doing, they'll ruin everyone's day

    • @odinsson204
      @odinsson204 2 роки тому +1

      @@Baylow94 there was a Bonanza lost there a while back. The pilot was a F18 pilot I think. He forgot about density altitude.
      There was a series of mistakes made. Sad.

  • @marcostovar7968
    @marcostovar7968 2 роки тому

    Good explanations

  • @Ninjalectual
    @Ninjalectual 2 роки тому +1

    What things did the FAA do to make accidents like this a thing of the past?

  • @noneofyourbizness
    @noneofyourbizness 2 роки тому

    good stuff. thanks

  • @Menstral
    @Menstral 2 роки тому +1

    You absolutely skipped the best part, what were the recommendations??

  • @bowman4275
    @bowman4275 2 роки тому

    I'm not even a pilot but I believed that as soon as the real issue with hydraulics occurred, they should terminate any tests and land. So the No 4. engine should have been spooled-up. Or is that now only obvious in our safety-conscious world?

  • @TimothyChapman
    @TimothyChapman 2 роки тому

    Rather interesting that the checklist called for all hydraulic systems to be shut down.

  • @victorpena9824
    @victorpena9824 2 роки тому

    Wow, wow, wow..
    Pretty damn amazing.
    Good Work!!! 👍

  • @johnpollard4158
    @johnpollard4158 2 роки тому

    Shades of Delta 9877. That killed 13 people on the ground, some of them high school students staying at the hotel it hit.

  • @rilmar2137
    @rilmar2137 2 роки тому +2

    The question is: why did they turn off ALL pumps rather than just one?

    • @anantr99
      @anantr99 2 роки тому +4

      If memory serves me, the reason they turned off all the pumps was because the checklist told them to. This was done in order to facilitate the identification (and potential isolation) of the problem. The checklist would have a line item later to turn them back on, but the crew never got to that item due to leaving the checklist half done.

  • @747heavyboeing3
    @747heavyboeing3 4 місяці тому

    Incredibly they didn't add full power on engine #4 until is was too late.

  • @jmp.t28b99
    @jmp.t28b99 2 роки тому

    Good video .

  • @우구-k2b
    @우구-k2b 2 роки тому

    Can you make 2021 Mlian Airplane Crash please!!! The Takeoff was Annoying | The Crash Of YR-PDV

  • @margarita8442
    @margarita8442 2 роки тому +1

    why they turm pumps off ?

  • @chuckschillingvideos
    @chuckschillingvideos 2 роки тому

    If you're the pilot in that situation, wouldn't the FIRST thing you do at any sign of trouble be to bring engine #4 back to full power?

  • @curbyourshi1056
    @curbyourshi1056 Рік тому

    I am not a pilot, but the very first thing I'd do is restore power to the "failed" engine. What a shame that they died for a little mistake.

  • @alibuolayyan9038
    @alibuolayyan9038 2 роки тому +1

    How is it written at the beginning of the runway 31 and the other end 13

    • @peterensinger1770
      @peterensinger1770 2 роки тому +3

      The runway numbers relate to the compass heading when the aircraft is facing down the runway (as if to take off or approaching it while landing) so if you are sitting at the 31 end of the runway with the runway in front of you then your compass should read 310° otherwise if you are sat at the 13 end looking down the runway then your compass should read 130°

  • @supertramp6011
    @supertramp6011 2 роки тому +2

    What a crazy, needless accident. Madness!

  • @asphyxia7784
    @asphyxia7784 2 роки тому +1

    Ooh new video

  • @Milesco
    @Milesco 2 роки тому

    If one of the multiple hydraulic systems develops a leak, why would you turn ALL of your hydraulic pumps off?

  • @MJ-lx8pc
    @MJ-lx8pc 2 роки тому

    I have wifi high def infrared and normal vision cameras in my home. Why don't planes have camera views of the wings/engines tail and landing gear for the pilots in he cockpit.? Seems like the aircraft industry is neglecting an important safety opportunity!

  • @fleetwin1
    @fleetwin1 2 роки тому

    As my mom would say: "by the Grace of God go I".... May they rest in peace

  • @Rincypoopoo
    @Rincypoopoo 2 роки тому

    I like the videos that you make very much. In particular the narration. Nicely written with a great voice. I subscribed AGES ago. Maybe mention those already subscribed ? I always want to shout "I already am !"

  • @cmartin_ok
    @cmartin_ok 2 роки тому +5

    For those of us of a certain age.... "Up, up and away with TWA"

    • @strangelove9608
      @strangelove9608 2 роки тому

      Or " Try Walking Across" was our phrase in the UK 8)

  • @dodoubleg2356
    @dodoubleg2356 2 роки тому +6

    QUESTION...How would bringing engine #4 back online cause the rudder to automatically switch back into manual control mode, thus giving the pilots more control. Not sayin' you're wrong, it's a legit que. Thx, enjoyed the vid as always. 😉✌️

    • @jpoconnor5744
      @jpoconnor5744 2 роки тому +9

      The rudder is actively used to keep the aircraft on course in the face of the asymmetric thrust. This requires active pressure in the hydraulic system to keep the rudder pushed to the left.
      With all 4 engines running, thrust is equal on both sides so the rudder basically just sits there in the center position so no active hydraulic pressure needed.

    • @dodoubleg2356
      @dodoubleg2356 2 роки тому +3

      @@jpoconnor5744 oh ok, that's what I thought. The way the narrator said it made it sound like the it would go into a different "manual" mode automatically once engine #4 was powered up, so that threw me off. Thx for the reply. 😉👍✌️

    • @briant7265
      @briant7265 2 роки тому +3

      @@dodoubleg2356 I also got the impression that there is limited control of the ruder without hydraulics, but not enough to handle the asymmetry from the (outboard) engine being off.

    • @dodoubleg2356
      @dodoubleg2356 2 роки тому +2

      @@briant7265 yeah I think it was just the verbage used by the narrator. The narrator, as the person who commented earlier said, prob just meant that w/engine #4 online & as a result of equal thrust across the wings the rudder needs to be used less & directional/yaw control is much easier. It was just the way he said (I'm paraphrasing, only quoting what I know was word for word) w/#4 back online, the "rudder returned to manual mode." I didn't see how an engine bein' powered up would cause a rudder to switch into "manual mode" automatically is all. Thx for the reply.😉✌️

  • @jaybird3745
    @jaybird3745 2 роки тому

    if fluid level is zero, why kill the pump? if #4 is dead, why not slow #1?

  • @skuula
    @skuula 2 роки тому

    Aren't the engines somewhat too large in that model? The windows too.

  • @robertstack2144
    @robertstack2144 2 роки тому

    FAA requirements didn't have a checklist to dictate what to do when the other checklist was disregarded. When I was in the Air Force of the United States of America the working troops, the crew chiefs, the mechanics, were under constant harassmen, I would call it, by Quality Control, and other Supervisors to use checklist. Our maintenance superintendent could often be heard saying "checklist, checklist, checklist, checklists." I can only think that some pencil pushers somewhere in the heiarchy of pencil pushers in government required this. If we went by their standards all the time nothing would get done. Planes would not fly. Checklists are fine, and of course to government...necessary. I wonder if government doctors who operate on serviemen are required to use checklists. Did we just open Pandora's box? Oh no the horror