Who are the Two by Twos? (The Truth, Workers and Friends)
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- They are known as Irvinites, Cooneyites, the Go preachers, Tramp preachers, and more, and sometimes there's no name for them at all. But who are these people? In this video we'll look into the teachings and practices of the "Two by twos."
Go watch the final episode in the Family tree of denominations series! ua-cam.com/video/N7PfJRprpDU/v-deo.html
Ureey gbffb b😅y I’m m
Awesome video! I grew up in this cult. Google "Wings for Truth" to read about the over 400 cases of child rape and sexual abuse.
With that in mind, you should now do Christadelphians
Please note that you quote Bruce Waddell, a convicted sex offender in the Canadian province of Manitoba. Read about it on Wings for Truth
Please do Witness Lee's Local Church
I used to be a member of this cult. I was also a victim of sexual assault, rape, not just at the hands of a family member who was also involved in this cult, but there was also a sexual assault account add a convention where my shoulder was dislocated as I was trying to get away from this worker. The overseer who really is considered a God was told about what happened and did absolutely nothing about it except to tell me I needed to keep the secrets in the home and that I needed to keep my mouth shut or there would be trouble. I am one of the ones who have submitted my story to the FBI and I hope that this cult, will either conform to the laws of the land or be brought down and exist no more.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. I got involved with this group when I was in college, but I'm out of it now.
@@anngale3619 I'm gay. Try telling that lot you're gay...OH, DEAR!
Also, I made the MASSIVE sin of getting my hair cut semi-short. I was referred to as the 'Devil's Child'
@skippy4220 you're not alone. xxxx
So sorry to read of your dreadful experience. You are NOT alone.
It is a bit surreal seeing a video like this. Recovering from this religion has been the most difficult task of my life.
I hear you.
True🌷
I was born and raised in this group. We left 11/12 years ago when I was 38. The damage they have caused is heartbreaking. They are masterful at twisting scripture in such a way that instead of providing spiritual freedom to people, they use it to put people in bondage. Even though some don’t practice “worker worship“, the group treat the workers as the highest authority, not God. Scripture is not used to interpret scripture. Because they believe “the way is perfect, the people aren’t”, many of the spiritual, physical and mental abuse is simply swept under the rug.
My heart breaks because we have family and friends who are still a part of the group. With patience, deep conversations and prayer, we have seen the hand of God lead more and more away from the group.
They are like all cults. Satan spins the same lie with a little different slant - poison never the less. All cults place people in bondage and only the true Jesus and Scripture can set them free. Glad you were shown the truth and pray that others whom you know will follow suit.
I've been through it all in this faith my entire life. But God put it on my heart years ago that NO MAN or WOMAN is worth my salvation. This faith is as close to what God intended through his son and as long as my relationship with God is constant and headed in the right direction, then it DOES NOT matter what others do. God can use anyone within in faith to share his message and feed my soul. No worker is worth me losing salvation. They r just as human as anyone. When they r in my home, if they choose to misbehave, then they will be introduced to the door or the police depending on what they do. I also have no problem standing up for the innocent. If at some point workers choose to kick us out, then so be it. But we remain faithful to the fellowship and keep a watchful eye.
@CMary201it's hard to leave because it feels right. I was raised in it but since left and now accept the trinity as the true theological explanation of the godhead.
I left when I was 17. I'm now 40. It was the basis of my identity unfortunately and it has not been easy moving on at least for me.
i have grown up in it all my life. we don’t believe workers are at the same level of authority as god. they are simply messengers of the gospel and we get given messages from the spirit from what they have spoken from. the truth gives us peace and joy and we don’t feel bondage to it as it is our personal realationship with god and they are just helping us along the way
@@sineArmstrongwhat about the new revelations of rampant pedophilia and corruption? I was once a member too by the force of my parents. F that bs church
I grew up in this way. Has taken me over 50 years to get beyond it, to understand grace.
My sister-in-law belongs to this group. I have two observations:
1. Their clothes are modest, simple, and of natural wool and cotton. No synthetics.
2. Their capacity for logical fallacy is limitless - "We don't have a structure", but they have elders, deacons, and workers. "We are not a 'church'", but they have local, regional, national and international networks. Etc.
This church has no restrictions on fabric types.
Not sure where you get the "no synthetics" thing. That's not at thing in 2x2s, nor has it ever been.
No ban on synthetic fabrics but your second point is accurate.
Looks very Amish to me.
Thank you so much for this! As a current member of the church (a more liberal member), I've never experienced a significant platform like yours discussing our fellowship. It's incredibly validating. I thought you did an excellent job. I would add that... all members give testimonies/messages on Sunday and Wednesday meetings, not just the Elders. These testimonies are at max 3mins long and usually discuss a passage from the bible or a spiritual thought. Thank you for this video!
Thanks for your comment and your addition.
May I ask what does a "more liberal" member of the church look like as opposed to the average member? And also do you believe in the Trinity or not?
@@josh_final i don't think they will answer you bcz if they answer yes and believe in trinity perhaps they will expelled (at least in my area).
@@josh_final Great question! I personally do believe in the Trinity. It's honestly a mixed topic with many workers, but most will never outright agree with the doctrine because of the reasons stated in the video. Still, some will allude to Trinity as biblical, but this could just be a lack of understanding of the concept. I consider myself more liberal because I don't believe in the Living Witness doctrine, views on divorce, and the traditional rules- For example, I have a TV, socially drink, and have longer hair (for a male in the church). The older generation generally frowns on this, but most of my peers (millennials in the church) feel the same as me, at least in my social circle. As the comment above points out, experience in the church greatly depends on your family and region. This is one of several flaws that the Church has.
@@Dewayne1173 The Church without a name sounds a lot like every other protestant denomination to me. Giving that probably a lot of them accept the trinitarian Christian God, I'm not really sure what's the difference, because all other doctrines look exactly like common protestant doctrines to me. Maybe outside of the fact that they're living and preaching in hiding without a name and without making their stuff public, but even that is not that uncommon. Reminds me of Mennonites, Amish etc. There are, and were for a long time, many Christian denominations who preferred to distance themselves from the world more than others.
Ex-member here. Quick terminology lesson: Profess (verb) - to signal to all other members and God that you want to be a member / want to serve God. Sometimes referred to as "making your choice," this usually involves physically standing to your feet while singing a particular hymn at the end of a Saturday night convention meeting, or a gospel meeting while you cry and everyone cries and tries to hug you afterward. Professing members are allowed and expected to take part in weekly meetings and bible studies. I professed when I was 10 years old at an annual convention. It's a strange thing that happens, because no one forced me or even suggested I do it. I was still bringing coloring books to mtg prior to that convention - I certainly did not anticipate it happening. My parents didn't really talk about it except when speaking of other people who were professing or had recently professed. I don't understand the psychology of it - why many young people profess out of seemingly genuine conviction, or a feeling like God is asking them/ calling them. People who leave the group for various reasons may struggle with that aspect, because on one hand they can clearly see the ways in which the doctrine and behaviors of the group contrast with the example of Christ, and they think "No, this can not be The Way, God would not condone this" but there's that genuine aspect of the whole experience that is very real and personal, where people vividly remember being called and spoken to by God. That genuine experience that is good, and true, and deeply significant to you and God risks being overshadowed by the overarching negative experience with the group. That is an oversimplification based on my own experience, and I'm not very eloquent with it, but it's my own. Others may have different experiences in their separation from the group. Based on what I know to be true for myself and what I have seen and heard first hand while inside the church, see that several truths coexist and are not mutually exclusive.
1. God does, in fact, speak and work through members of this group to those who wish to know Him. 2. Friends and Workers are human and capable of horrible things. 3. Salvation, and having a close relationship with a God of your own understanding (what God is to you), IS NOT dependent on membership of this group.
Your mom donates money to the 2x2 ministry which is used to pay for Dean Bruer's hotel rooms for raping children or Jerome Frandle's lawyers to avoid prison for covering up child sexual assault. The 2x2s have the highest rate of CSA of any religious group in the world. It's a mess of CSA, money laundering, and corruption.
I remember being a little girl in convention and just believing if I didn’t profess today I was going to hell and it was just the right thing to do at a certain age because everyone else was doing.
Ex member from the northwest. Thank you for your words you’ve expressed my same experience.
People have absolutely convincing religious experiences in religions that are diametrically opposed. It happens all the time. Do you think all the Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, Sufis, or Animists are lying and only you are being honest about it? The only logical conclusion is that even absolutely convincing religious experiences are subjective and not indicative of communication from a real entity outside yourself.
I professed when I was 9. Thankyou for sharing this 🖤😓
Thank you for doing this video. Several years ago I met someone who was a part of this group. He invited my wife and I into his home and family. We even attended a Sunday evening meeting. It was a bit strange. Something seemed a little off to me. When I asked about what this church was I was told “friends”. For years I couldn’t find any information about it. I have learned more from this video that I have in the past 25 years since meeting this family.
"Friends" is one name members call the religion to each other. Other names are The Truth, The Way, Workers & Friends, The Saints, Meetings, the No Name Church, Black Stockings, Cooneynites, the Fellowship . . .) The church's registered names include "Christian Conventions" in the United States, "Assemblies of Christians" in Canada, "The Testimony of Jesus" in the United Kingdom, "Kristna i Sverige" in Sweden, and "United Christian Conventions" in Australia.
They are a cult - don’t . Its not that there aren’t good people int his organized ‘un organization’ but the higher ups are dangerous and malicious manipulators
@@mystie6861 Thanks for that info. I have worked for these people, been their neighbour, went to school with them, they are high in my affection. I was a Methodist but felt close to them. I then spent 30 years in the WWCOG till it deconstructed so I know what it is like to be a bit odd and a bit more heavy laden than is absolutely necessary.
@@wilfredmancy do you mean WMCOG? As in world mission church of God? They're really a doozy. I was raised in the two by two group.
@@prayunceasingly2029WWCOG means World Wide Church of God, founded by Herbert W Armstrong who died in Jan. 1986.
The keystone of our doctrine was the seventh day sabbath, when we began to realise that the Sabbath meaning is fulfilled in/by Jesus then that changed our whole reason for being. The church disintegrated into various groups or people went and did their own thing, but the legal entity that was wwcog has now become Grace Communion International.
The chap who does Useful Charts said he grew up in the wwcog. I came into it when I was 19 back in 1963.
When my step-mother's mother died, I attended a funeral service by a Christian church that I had the hardest time identifying. When I asked my step-mother she called it "The Truth." and in conversation after the funeral another person called it "The Homeless" movement. They stressed that workers could not own homes. This is the closest I've ever heard anyone come to describing these folks.
They claim to have a "Homeless" ministry
Was the funeral kind of long and boring and strangely not about the deceased person at all? That would be a 2x2 funeral.
@@ThatWyrdGirl That's how they are.
@@ThatWyrdGirl they preach sermons at funerals. I think that happened at my grandmother's funeral, she was in this group.
As a current member, love the video, one point I would like to correct is that it was said that the elder chooses what is spoken on sunday and that is not the case at least where I'm from in Midwestern America, everyone that is proffesing reads the Bible at their own pace and picks different verses to speak on. They talk about the verses for a few minuets during the part of meeting we call testimony. When workers are visiting the meetings they do this as well. The workers only preach at convention and special gospel meetings that are open to the public. Both Wednesday and Sunday meeting a run like Bible Studies the elder is just there to keep track of who is left to speak before meeting is over.
In Australia the workers send out a little card with the subject list for Wednesday night meetings. So we can have a bible study on a particular topic or chapter.
But aren't they supposed to all give their testimony on verses in a certain chapter?
Correct. I would point out, however, that elders typically have a lot more responsibility than just directing the meeting. At least in my experience they do.
@@mystie6861 where I'm from that is only the case Wednesday.
I attended a public gospel meeting in a village hall in southern England in around 2006-7. After researching the group online I found that another, less flattering name for them, is the Damnation Army because they hold one public meeting in a town or village and then never, ever return. Don’t know how true that is though…
It must be tough being the only true church of Jesus in the world...
and that is the Carholic Church
@@jendreg1935 two many claim that now but obviously none R : as they all have erroneous interpretations that developed over time or from false prophets ! Nothing like the church started on the Day of Pentecost.
Only the Church in Hebrews 12:22-29 is the church that has the Book of the Lamb that you need your name in !
@@jendreg1935Do they see Car and Driver as inspired scripture?
@@jendreg1935the Catholic church cut the penisis off of protestant children for hundreds of years, true church of god my foot. They are the church of Mammon trading their golden calves for golden crosses upon their places of worship. They created the religion of Islam to create a boogey man to fleece their citizens even more mammon with crusades being the justification. They are the one world government that Yeshua speaks about.
ANTHONY FAUCCI-creator of COVID Roman Catholic
GAVIN NEWSOM-opens the borders to the drugs and immigrants changing the political/social economic landscape of California. Shut down business and restaurants criminalizing attendance to the public while not adhering to his own mandates.
NANCY PELOSI-Drunkard whose power base comes from Chinatown communists in San Francisco. Facilitator if not organiser of Jan6th In charge of the Capitol Police who opened the door to insurrection.
JUSTIN TREDUA-Canadian Oilgarch shut down truckers and Canadas economy to sell Faucci's vaccine investments. Amongst other crimes.
EVERY SOUTH AMERICAN DICTATOR- Choking his country men out with starvation causing migration in the millions and job displacement in the countries that absorb them.
JOE BIDEN-another career politician who's decades of crimes whether it's stealing of elections. Pay to play politics as the funding from China and his dealings in Ukraine come to light are just to name a small sample. ALL ROMAN CATHOLICS
VLADIMIR PUTIN a Catholic as well though an Orthodox leaning.
THE CONTRA NOSTRA THE CARTELS AND THE US MARINE CORE- All murderous maiming mammon thieving arms of the HOLY SEE.
JFK-started to speak about the HOLY SEES secret societies and their plot for world domination and they shot him dead in the public square just like when they nailed Yeshua to the tree.
VICAR OF CHRISTO- Literally means instead of Christ and that who your bowing to. Yeshua clearly says no man reaches the Father but through him.
Repent
Smilesotheylikeyou
@@jendreg1935 you mispelled the Orthodox Church
FYI -- There was a news report today, here in Canada, on the CBC, that the Two by Two's are currently under investigation in both the US and Canada for over 1,500 allegations of sexual abuse, including child sexual abuse. I thought you'd be interested in knowing this and might want to carry out what investigation is accessible to you. Love your channel. Many blessings!!
700+ named offenders, Mostly CSA allegations, 700 - Approx. 40% of those workers/preachers
@@mystie6861 Wow
@@joemerino3243 Now 910 named offendars
It’s nice to see more information coming out about this religion. My family has been a part of this group for many years and I attended until I was 12. No one under the age of 50 attends from my family now. Their strict rules about how to dress, not cutting hair etc caused so much stress in my household growing up. TV and entertainment was hidden when workers came to visit. I never felt comfortable during ‘meetings’ or conventions. The hymns were nice but I rarely understood or had no interest in what they were preaching. It was rare for someone to relate a piece from the bible to everyday life.
I grew up in this religion as well. Left when I went to college. Thankyou for putting out this video. You are 99 percent accurate!
Them: if it could be proven that we were founded by a man…
Joshua: Hold my nonalcoholic beer
That was some preacher who is long dead. And humans are extremely fallible. He probably genuinely didn't know or do any research on the founding of the church.
Every single friend I know, knows it had a Earthly founding in the 1800s. But people don't put any emphasis on it, otherwise that person becomes prophetish like White from the Adventists or Smith from the LDS. No human can be closer to God than anyone else. And we shouldn't put emphasis on them. Only our relationship with Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit working in your life matters.
A number of people who are still in the sect are refuting things that are said. I was the daughter of an elder, and the wife of an "alternate" elder (we both left in the past year.) The fact that it was started by a man was first "revealed" in a book called "The Secret Sect," published when I was a kid. The workers instructed people to buy up all of the books and burn them. As a result, an original copy of the book is very hard to come by. The secret was then kept steady until right around the year 2000, when a woman named Cherie Kropp, who had already done several years of research, started a website revealing the truth about "The Truth," (as members refer to the sect, similar to Jehovah's witness.) I find it curious that someone else has stated "every single friend I know knows it had an earthly founding." This may be true in 2023, but it was not true in 2015. The recent publication of Cherie's book, "Preserving the Truth," purchasable on Amazon, has revealed the beginnings in full.
@@CC-dv5eb I would point out that the workers who said this were part of the original group. They most certainly did know the beginnings of the group, they were actually the original founders. The reason they said there was no beginning was because they were trying to cover up the existence of William Irvine. Born and raised, 4th gen, my great grandparents professed in the early 1900's shortly after the workers arrived in the US. Also, if you go into the facebook groups, you will find that the vast majority of them around the entire world were told that it was the original church preached by Jesus. This, in fact, was the proof that it was the only right way. Shame on people who knew and didn't share that fact.
@@CC-dv5eb I grew up in this religion and No One that I knew was aware of the origins. I left 30 years ago.
@@mystie6861Nobody knew when I left 10 years ago.
June 13, 2024 I saw an ABC Nightline story about the "Two by Two Church" tonight. I have no other information except that ABC News reported that the Omaha, Nebraska Field Office of the FBI is investigating and seeking victims of sexual abuse in some Two By Two workers also called "The Truth" workers that has happened over for decades. I'm not making any allegations against anyone. I am just passing along this information. If you are approached by any Religious "Workers", and have children, I would be very cautious. This could apply to any persons saying they have the only Truth of God, seem manipulative, and use fear of hell to manipulate you. That kind of religious manipulation is unacceptable in my belief system.
I grew up in this, was a member for ~40 years. A few small nuances aside, this is the most accurate account I’ve ever seen of the church (more accurate and informed, in fact, than what you would get from most members). Well done.
I also grew up in this group in British Columbia and Alberta, Canada. This video is accurate.
Dude, I grew up in this. I consider it a cult. I left it several years ago. You nailed it with this video. Very factually accurate and objective. Excellent job!!!
I'm so glad, you did this video!!! Thanks buddy!!!
No more a cult than any other church. In fact because we have no leader, we are less of a cult
I grew up in it as well. It is definitively a cult and is currently imploding because of rampant child rape finally being acknowledged.
It's definitely a cult. I had to build myself up from scratch after. Socially ostracized
I grew up in this religion. Thank you so much for creating this video. It is mostly accurate.
Regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, the stance of the church has changed over time. This is partly evidenced by their hymns. The previous instance of the hymn book (1952 edition) retained the original phrase "Christ, my God" in the hymn "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross." The current edition changed the phrase to "Christ, my Lord."
The absence or presence of the trinity isn't even discussed. I didn't actually know the trinity was a thing until I was at University. But with discussions about the book of John with many members, the arguments for and against the trinity differ from person to person. I do know of at least three workers I've discussed with who argued that John does say its true. But there are different perspectives. On the whole, theology isnt going to affect your salvation. Your love of God and the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross to redeem us does. And even then, as Jesus said about the goats and sheep, some can be saved who didn't even know Jesus.
It is not up to us to know. Judge not lest ye be judged. Only our Father in heaven can know.
@robertstephenson6806it’s weird then, that John chooses to identify the Logos with the person of Christ. Your arguments don’t make sense. Belief in the most Holy Trinity is strictly required for salvation.
@@CC-dv5eb It is curious that although the belief in the trinity isn't considered to be relevant to salvation, whether or not you have "meeting in the home, ministry without a home" most certainly is considered to be relevant!
@@CC-dv5eb It is true that I never heard trinity discussed when I was in 30 years ago and many of the members aren't clear on what they should believe or not with stuff like that.
@robertstephenson6806 what religion are you now?
Edward Cooney was from Enniskillen in Northern Ireland. I have known many people (some still living) who heard him preach. I live in Ballinamallard where he and Irvine held conventions at Crocknacrieve House from 1907-1915. They still get a visits and correspondence from members worldwide who were told than the movement had existed from the beginning.
As a conclusion of the collaboration between you and Matt, the host of UsefulCharts, what pleases me the most is the fact that it was successful result of cooperative works between a religious liberalist a.k.a academian (Matt) and religious fundamentalist a.k.a practitioner/preacher (you).
I believe that the most serious division in modern Christian scene, especially in protestant one, is definitely fundamentalist/liberalist controversy, which not only has harmed the both sides but also even divides UA-cam's creators and viewer demographic. I saw many hostility between the both sides in both of obvious form and subtle form and many broken inconclusive argument between ppl from the both sides, so I think your collaboration with Matt is inspiring, showing that still fundamentalists and liberalists can cooperatively learn and discuss religious topics rationally...
Hey man. I’m a recently former member. Absolutely 100% of everything you said on here is 100% true. I’m kind of flabbergasted at how accurately you depicted the group. Nice work!!!
Thanks!
This video has definitely been a revelation (no pun intended), as I thought I had heard of every denomination, sect, group that is out there. An interesting group, although many of their beliefs are not so different from some. Well done, as usual! Thank you, Joshua.
Never thought I’d see a video about a group as obscure as The Truth but once again, you pleasantly surprise me. Excellent video. Please keep them coming.
Many years ago I attended a public meeting of this group. It was held in a local community centre and advertised using hand written notices taped to lampposts. The preaching was delivered in a monotone voice and was very works oriented. There was no mention of grace. However, there was some encouragement for people in the meeting to contribute verbally. This involved a very understated “altar call” in which people were expected to stand silently if they agreed with what they had heard.
You might have came when they were testing. Did only a very small number of people stand? If so then they were professing for the first time. It's when someone makes their choice to serve God. You normally only do it once in your life. Once you do so, you are now professing. You can speak in Sunday morning meetings and in bible study.
They normally only test the meetings once a year as well.
I believe you may be talking about what they call "professing"
They may have been trying to convert you/get you to profess and be a part of their religion
@@mystie6861They weren't being specifically targeted.
We’re you there?
I grew up in this church. I went to meetings every sunday with my grandparents. I later became a born again Christian in an evangelical church.. I never really knew what they believed until I read a book called "The Secret Sect". This opened my eyes to the errors of their teaching. There are many members all over Australia, and many of my relatives, including my parents, now deceased. I know how much my parents lives were changed when they went back to their church. But they never acknowledged me as being a Christian. I often wonder, are they in heaven.
My mom's in this group. I am a trinitarian now. Sadly a kind of social division happens when people are in these exclusive kinds of groups. Insiders and outsiders are made by that mindset.
God will judge them based on their knowledge and the 2x2s tend to keep them insular
Theyre up there. God knows they were good people just trying to know him in the way they thought was right. You will see them again
holy crap... this is the church I grew up in and most of my family is still a part of... I never knew any of this
I was involved with this group when I was in college, but I never heard anyone call them two-by-twos. Definitely the same group though.
I was part of this group in my teens and early adulthood. Great to see more info about it on the internet these days. Great job!
Many of my relatives on my father’s maternal side were/are a part of this group. Because we did not “profess”, they would not discuss anything about the group or their operations. My family owns the property in SW Virginia used for the annual convention. My grandmother took me to 1 meeting without permission. Much of what I know about them comes from a couple of books I found written by people who had exited the group. Everything you stated lines up with what I know about them.
I'd never heard of this group until we moved to the upper midwest and hand some friends that came out of this but still have family involved. We met them and did some business with them but they are rather aloof from our experience so not sure how the evangelize. They appear to be very moral and upright citizens but don't know much else then what you gave us here, thank you and well done as always.
Yes they appear to be to outsiders.
I was wondering what regions they operated in mostly. I hadn’t heard of them before in California.. not to say they aren’t here, I just don’t personallt know about them.
@@bradk1295 They are in every state in the US and many other countries
Maybe ask who they believe Jesus is. The groups I interacted with didn't believe in his lordship or as part of the godhead. Then maybe feel out what they think happens when a person dies. I loved pointing out whosoever verses.
I grew up in it, they don’t really evangelize. It’s basically a closed system at this point with dwindling members.
Born into this and got out in my 30's. I thank God every day for him leading me out of it. They are a fearful bunch, worried that they are gonna go to hell with any slight sin. Always "wanting to do better" a common term heard in meetings and from workers is we better make sure we are right with God which causes fear amongst the members. Fear is used to control. They have to work every day to have a hope of salvation, they dismiss the finished work of Christ and rarely talk about Grace or Praise. Very focused on the outward appearance and not the inward. My experience with workers was they were quite judgmental and condemning. They decide whether you are fit to be baptized, fit to take part in their meetings and fit to take communion, usually based on your appearance and attitude/ devoutness towards their workers and teachings. Meeting / convention attendance is also used as a measuring stick. More focus was on what the workers say about the Bible than what the Bible actually says. Questioning is seen as unwillingness and those that reject their doctrine are termed as a bitter exes. Very culty. It is sad because there are several good honest people who are simply trying to follow Jesus and his teachings that are a part of this group but they are being misled. They are definitely not Nicene.
The USA based group has collected 1500 claims of sexual abuse within the two-by-two church, which were covered up, and not reported to the authorities. As a result, the FBI is investigating them. Likewise in Canada, sexual abuse cases are emerging. Ms. Lindell Montgomery, for example, came forward about prolonged abuse when she was made the ward of a worker in the 1980s. She was promoted to do so after another Two by Two worker was convicted in a child pornography ring.
Such a shocking story coming out and I hope its not false allegations. If it's true it must be exposed. They can't call it "The Truth" if they are living a lie. The victims must not be condemned to suffer the burden of their abuse while the perpetrators are protected by the group. No different than the catholic priest scandal.
Not USA based!
I am a recovering B/R 4th generation EX-2x2.
Thank you for putting this info out. This sect/cult would appear innocuous on the surface but delve deeper and it does tremendous spiritual damage. When I say ‘spiritual damage’, that would be a massive umbrella for all the abuse many incur whilst inside
I literally was talking about this religion today with my great aunt. My great grandpa was a two by two here in Deford, Michigan!!!!!!!
You finally did it. You found one I've never heard of lol
First time hearing about them myself, it's one of the reasons that I subscribe to this site.
Same here!
I've heard of it. I grew up in it. I left 30 years ago.
@@mystie6861 I can see why.
@@lilajagears8317 I left because I felt it was very sexist and mainly focused on how the members appear, especially the women. I also felt many of them were hypocrites
I grew up in this church in South Africa. In Southern Africa it is exclusively called the "Meetings" or "The Way" by its adherents, even though they do not to consider this an official name, as the Church is nameless.
You've missed out a lot of the structure of the Church: "Meetings", "Special Meetings", "Conventions", and how Workers maintain cohesion between church units that have no explicit hierarchy.
The importance of end times and that we are currently in them is a very important facet of the meetings (to the point of pathological obsession), possibly only in Southern Africa?
Interesting fact about the South African meetings. The guy who assassinated Hendrik Verwoerd, the founder of Apartheid was one of the friends.
I think that is the current attitude in USA. There is a LOT of CSA/SA victims speaking out that were in this religion. Private investigator has been given 500 names of offenders. Ex 2x2s are pushing for the removal of CSAs from meetings and conventions. 2x2 current members are saying that God is cleansing their kingdom.
I'm 4th generation born and raised. Been put for years! As kids we were so indoctrinated about the end of times that I barely studied for my year 12 final exam, in 1992! Here we are 31 years later, still living it up!!
This is a fantastic account of the 2x2's, lots more info can be added, but very accurate info.
Never heard that said before! Dmitri Tsafendas?
This is an excellent summary of the group- by whatever names. It is current and concise. The widespread child sexual assault scandal (broke March 2023)along with its various connected scandals have rocked the church. These scandals dealt the church a serious, though likely not fatal blow. Church participation has dropped by at least a third in the past year- which in the groups culture is stunning.
Wow... this is something. I thought this might be something my grandmother imagined... because i couldn't find information on them. My gtandmother said they used to visit her in Louisville either in the 50s or 60s but hadnt seem or heard of them since that time!
You see, I've been through the desert in a church with no name, it felt good to be out of the rain...
Excellent videos despite no written sources. The disclaimer at the end shows the fairness of the scholar.
Thanks for posting this well researched summary of the 2x2 cult, I grew up in it like many commentors. The only correction that I would like to note is that the elder workers/overseers definitely have bank accounts, tithing absolutely happens, it's done in private and it's true that workers don't take a salary but they do ask for money and cars and secret rooms with hot tubs etc.
My wife was "kind of" raised in this religion. It's weird to say that her family were nominal two-by-twos, but that's the best description I can think of. We were married for years before I actually figured out what it was (she didn't actually know a name either). I can't say her experience is necessarily indicative of them as a whole, since her religious upbringing largely centered around the whims of her mother and then being sent to parochial school as a perpetual outsider and that being kind of muddled into the mix. Sort of like, "Hey, here's the Catholic school. They're all going to hell and they're wrong about everything, but they're going to teach you more about the Christian religion than we will. We'll just keep saying they're wrong." (then repeat with Lutherans).
By the way, great job on the channel, Joshua. I've watched quite a few of your videos.
Lutherans are way closer to catholics than this group though
@@prayunceasingly2029 Absolutely.
I think you did a good job of making a simple, objective and fair overview on the church.
Thank you for this!!! I was involved with this group for a few years. I never heard the Gospel at their 'Gospel Meeting'. It was hard to find information but over tine more information is slowly becoming available. They weren't mentioned in the Kingdom of the Cults book.
Interestingly and fitting enough, in Kalispell they meet in a funeral home.
Many prayers and may God continue to bless you.
What do you mean by you never heard "the gospel"? I'm genuinely curious.
@@CC-dv5eb Guessing he means the same thing the rest of us mean by that. "The Gospel," according to the workers, is when the workers brought news of the only right way, the 2x2 way. Workers talk about when "the gospel" was brought to people in the church, people in the church are encouraged to ask their grandparents, great grandparents, etc., about when "the gospel" came to them. Every time, it's the knowledge of the 2x2 church--many of them were previously methodist, or amish, or catholic, or Lutheran--and so by the general Christian definition had already heard "the gospel." The fact that hearing the gospel is defined as when the workers brought it, is proof that the gospel according to the sect is when the workers came/the knowledge of the 2x2 sect. (Meeting in the home, ministry without a home, workers sent 2x2.) According to the rest of Christendom, it's the good news that Jesus Christ, God the Son, came to earth to die for the sins of all and salvation is a gift, freely given, not earned.
@@CC-dv5eb As in salvation thru Jesus as described in the four books of the Gospel in the KJV Bible.
@sjinmt Jesus as our saviour is preached in nearly every meeting I've ever been in.
Thank you for this video! I think it is the best quick explanation about the 2x2s I've seen on youtube!!
I grew up in this church and I'm glad it allows differing views on evolution. A cool old guy in my morning meeting actually helped a lot in my acceptance of it.
I was once a member of this form of fellowship. My main reason for leaving the group was that the workers are very unclear about the Trinity and whether Christ is God incarnated in human flesh. The second reason for leaving the groups was that there was a tendency to believe in the necessity of hearing the message from a worker in order to be saved. But I loved their form of gathering as house churches. Everyone could share some thoughts from the Bible.
Only God could save me from this deceptive self righteous religion! I’m so thankful that even though being born and raised in the cult, that Jesus was the one to bring me out of the lies and deception. A family member to this day defends it no matter what. Even after all the sexual abuse cases especially to do with head workers getting away with sexual abuse for decades. Gotta keep faithful till the end or you go to hell :( I pray as many people come to know our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for who he really is. Coming to know what Jesus actually did on that cross for me has been SO FREEING ✝️❤️😍❤️
They are a cult and a criminal enterprise involved in child sex trafficking and money laundering.
As an Australian member I can say we have a large amount of fellowship people here. It is dwindling as people like myself left, however, it is definately over 50,000 members in the country at least.
I grew up in the church in Southern Illinois. Prominent members of the community ran the meetings. Both very well off. I left at 15, never professed. I had nightmares about hell as a child. Never really got over the terror of burning alive. My father who still attends. We don't speak. He's significantly brainwashed. The suffering this church caused me, was immense.
Same
THIS. I had ptsd for so long about going to hell. When I turned twelve I had a panic attack bc I could never fully make myself believe even though I "professed" and apparently at 12 you become eligible for hell.
@@ars8908I thought I was probably going to hell after leaving this group.
2x2s are notorious for psychologically terrorizing their children into the 2x2 system. Stays with people for much of their lives.
@2x2incorporated I kept the best of it I could. Religion is one big farce, in my opinion. Their idea of suffering being a part of absolution is rather disturbing. Now that I'm a grown man. It's hard for me to relate to anyone who's religious now. To many triggers.
I grew up in this cult in Australia. Left at 19 years old. Very restrictive.... i was going to hell when i left..
I've never understood these churches who won't admit someone who is divorced and remarried. Is it is a sin? Sure. If it is repented for, there is no blemish and Father counts you blameless. What does the church want to do, break up a second family with another divorce? Idiocy. Thanks for the video. 😉
"We're not a denomination, but we have a hierarchical structure, many congregations spread over a wide geographic area, and have a bunch of peripheral rules and doctrines." Ahh yes, another denomination that wants to seem "set apart" and "above the fray" by saying they're not a denomination. I ain't judging the members or anything, I just always found this funny. Seems prevalent these days, a network of churches saying they're not a denomination, but are in everything but name.
What is the sin of divorce and remarriage while the ex spouse still lives?
Surely you understand that it is the sin of adultery, which can only stop when the couple in the second adulterous marriage stop sleeping together as husband and wife.
There is no forgiveness for people living in a permanent ongoing state of adultery. They need to separate from living together in sin if they want forgiveness and admittance to the Church.
@@broz1488 Good thing you ain't judge, Your Royal Holiness!
@@mercster obviously you don't understand. Is that because you are a adulterer living in sin destined for hellfire?
We do admit in people who have been remarried. Anyone is welcome who loves Jesus.
Been really interested in this since your video about denomination names, and how well they've managed to remain underground. Thanks for this video !
Isn't it. I grew up in it. I had no idea when I left at 23? yrs old that the religion had a founder William Irvine. I grew without a TV or without listening to the radio (until I was a teen). We were told this way was from Jesus and was the only true way.
@@mystie6861Same! We had a radio though. We were told to hide it in the closet if the workers showed up!😂
@@hotshot2011wow, radios were taboo back in the day?
Computers were ok when I grew up. What a weird transition
@@prayunceasingly2029 yes, radios were taboo. Workers/maybe other men used to remove or snap of antenna's on members cars, sometimes at convention. I learned this after leaving.
@@hotshot2011 We had a radio also. My mother didn't profess and it was her radio-we weren't allowed to use it/listen to it. The only thing a remember her using it for was to listen to a soap (TV show). They probably used it for weather also. I remember listening to "rock" music as a teen when no one else was home.
Sounds fairly cultic, and a rejection of the Trinity and the treatment of others being condemned unless they are part of them, that's quite clearly a heresy.
They are a cult, google "Wings for Truth" to read about the 400+ cases of child rape and sexual assault carried out and covered up by the workers and overseers.
What possibly could be heretical in any religion. No one outside any of your churches can figure out from your gospels, letters and acts what it is that you people believe. Is it any wonder why this fellow participated in a poster sized chart just to track the doctrinal differences among you folks.?
Whereas, the speed of light in a vacuum has always been, is, and always will be 299,792,458 m/sec, since time, space and light have existed, until time, space and light cease to exist.
@@oldpossum57
"No one outside any of your churches can figure out from your gospels, letters and acts what it is that you people believe."
Then you don't know anything about history nor other people. Scripture makes heresy very clear, what Scripture says is quite clear, you just hate God and Truth.
No hatred for god. Love truth to bits. See no evidence of any gods, nor any need of the deist or theist hypotheses. I guess I know most about christian and Jewish scriptures. They are a mess.
The speed of light in a vacuum. That is truth. @@Spartan322
I was born and raised and left as a teenager and I think you did it right. The only thing is I've never heard the term "deacon" where the 2x2's are concerned.
As an ex-2x2 since age 15, this was a great find! But u did not mention the current CSA & abuse and cover up of abuse by the worker's & overseers. It is totally horrifying! My mother passed knowing (so sad) that her daughters were going to hell. So evil.
how bad Was the CSA I understand many higher ups left ? were there criminal charges
Because they're so secretive, he probably isn't aware.
@@marybethcarroll2065Apparently, it's been going on since the start. Some have had charges filed against them, but many have not. I'm completely shocked by this. I never saw anything and genuinely loved the friends and workers as people. We looked forward to having the workers stay with us in our homes. They definitely had authority, but they were also very kind and fun to be around for the most part. So many good ones, but the way the abusers are being favored over the victims by the overseers is appalling to me. It is splitting the ministry up for sure!
There have been plenty of workers forced to leave the ministry and everyone is now encouraged to contact the police if something happens. Some have been arrested. The only part that remains a problem is those who do immoral things that are technically not illegal. Some overseers are not willing to hold those people accountable. It is a massive tight rope because much of the wrong doing is one person's word against another. So there is action taken when the law gets involved. The days of secrecy are over and while we are still encouraged to hold the workers in high regard, no one is above accountability.
@@ebgstuff thank you for your response and speaking out , it seems that they do not want to discuss openly, with public forms as such.
As a former participant of this group, everything you said Is entirely accurate. Ray Hoffamans is my dad's senior worker.
This is so interesting. My mother grew up in this, and I recall going to conventions and things when I was little. But I never figured out what it was all about until recently.
I think I ran into the two-by-twos back in the early 1980s and they were from a community down around Fresno or Bakersfield CA. And, a little later a group of Lightning Amen followers came to town - they are still here. In the 70s I ran into a twig of the Way International and worked with one of them. It's almost like we were magnets for these people!
I was in the group for 18 years. So thankful I found my way out.
The people who make a living from writing are having a wonderful time over the discovery of the Two by Twos.just fancy them finding this secretive group and just think what a wonderfull time they are having. I was borne into this group and my mother loved it and it gave her a chance to have actual private meetings to enjoy the Bible . They were a group of very nice people who enjoyed their religion and probably still do.I faded away in the group as I was a was a Worldling and not that interested in religion but am a Christon.
I believe in the ragtag church of all believers in Jesus, with the heart, everywhere. No exclusivity at all, except that God has to know that you believe in Jesus, with what He knows to be the saving faith the Holy Spirit convicted you to believe. It does go all the way back to the original church, through the gospel, the word of God, and the Holy Spirit of God.
I've known this group for 64 yrs and. They don't allow you to ask questions, you just go by what you see. I recently asked my mother what they believe about the Resurrection. Her answer was "I don't know, I'm not Catholic" very dangerous group, once you are init's very hard to leave.
You can leave. But it kinda messes with the social connections. Because of religious in group preferences
they do allow you to ask questions. if you ask anyone about what you believe they will give you an answer. if you ask about certain things they will be moved by the spirit in giving an answer. to say that they don’t allow questions is inaccurate
Ask! Some of us believe that when the soul leaves the body it is immediately united with the Father, the Son and all who have salvation through faith in Christ and have gone on ahead. Some, in reading what is described about Jesus' second coming and the dead in Christ rising from their graves first, then all meeting him in the air, believe the soul is in a state or a realm of rest or type of sleep with consciousness of peace and Jesus near. Either one brings up questions. David once made the comment, "The dead know nothing." which would support a type of sleeping of the soul. Paul seemed to believe he would immediately be united with Christ. On the cross Jesus said to the thief on the cross beside him, "I tell you today thou shalt be with me in paradise." In our KJV the comma falls after the word "you." Meaning 'You will be with me in paradise today after your soul leaves your body.' At least one Hebrew translation has the comma after the word "today." This would translate ' Today I am telling you, you will be with me in paradise.' But it doesn't mean immediately. The Hebrew accommodates the fact that Jesus did not rise from the dead until the third day, and within that time he experienced separation from God because of the burden of sin he carried. After he rose he was among the living on earth for 40 days. After that he ascended to stand at God's right hand. So it doesn't seem like he would refer to his existence right after crucifixion as paradise. Far from it. We can ask what is paradise and what is heaven? Is paradise where we rest until Jesus comes? Or is it another name for heaven? Old Testament has multiple accounts of the fathers being gathered to their fore-fathers but the "where" is not described. The judgment doesn't happen until later.
Jesus told of two resurrections: will be one unto eternal life and the other to eternal death, we at least know that the choices we make here matter. We are doubly God's already. He created us. He redeemed us. What amazes me is that He has given us the choice to know Him or not. I choose Him. The more we get to know Him the more eager we become to shed the body whose nature tethers us so firmly to the dust. When we become aware of our soul and that it is the part of us that exists without end, Jesus' sacrifice and the instructions for life he lived and taught become a reality check like no other. I don't want to miss living under a righteous and loving King. I try to imagine that kind of government. More than that, I want to be with Him. I don't know the blueprint for what lies ahead, but He does. I hope to know you there.
Gonna need an update soon on the overseers lol they’re getting removed left and right at the moment and some under investigation
They absolutely HAVE money . They have a lot of money and they are heavily involved in abuse scandals
To be fair as an ex-Australian member of the group, a lot of the members including part of my family owned huge amounts of resources, land and businesses. Not everyone, but a lot were well off. Strange how that works lol
@@mengl29Yes they usually were prosperous.
🎶 The Christians marching two-by-two,
hurrah, hurrah... 🎶
I think they may have marched thru some town at the start of it.
Wow. I grew up in this and until literally the last 2 weeks have never heard of it anywhere outside my own family and knowledge. Unfortunately, my brother brought to my attention massive sexual abuse by workers. Fortunately, I never experienced any of this growing up.
Not a member for many years, but happy to say born again 11 years ago, disproving their beliefs and many others. The Lord made me a believer, not any human 🙂
It's amazing how much detail you manage in this video
I think you did a good job explaining about us the only things I would like to add is that in the 2000s our rules relax a bit more and in our Sunday and Wednesday meetings every member takes part and saying something if they have profess the youngest kid I’ve ever seen profess is probably five at the time anyway, I thought you did a good job explaining it!😊
My best friend grew up in this in Louisiana. She told me they had house meetings, no church building and their preachers were traveling 2x2 pairs, men & women and stayed in the members homes and weren’t allowed to marry. They were somewhat like Pentecostals because the women wore dresses & their hair up and no makeup and it seemed to be a very strictly controlled belief / religion. I went to one meeting with her because we went to visit her grandmother. It was strange. No real preaching, just hymns with no music, then people giving short testimony and prayer. I found out recently about the sexual abuse covered up by leaders at meetings & conventions. In addition their belief excludes all other Christians not in their sect as being unsaved and they emphasize works plus faith being necessary for salvation. Their preachers don’t go to seminary and they are unlicensed so they can’t even do weddings. It has to be a licensed minister or Justice of Peace. Their doctrinal beliefs diverge quite a bit from most Christian denominations.
Their preaching is done at gospel meetings in rented halls rather than the Sunday morning meetings or Wednesday night meetings
Thank you for posting this video. Hate it when churches try to hide or obfuscate their beliefs.
We don't try to hide beliefs. We don't have set doctrine. The only thing that matters is your personal relationship with God. Theology is a matter of opinion. We don't have a headquarters or governing body or any consensus of that kind of thing. So why would we publish things like that? They're not important. The only important thing is God.
@@CC-dv5eb -- Which God? Without a set theology, you could (and most likely do) have members of the group worshipping different deities. What is believed is vital. True unity must start with doctrinal unity.
@@gregb6469 The one true living God. There is only one God.
@@CC-dv5eb -- EVERY group says that, even though many of them worship a deity which is a figment of their own imagination. You need to be specific about who the God you worship is, what He is like, what His attributes are, etc, In other words, you need to do theology.
@gregb6469 The one true God which all Christians love. Our God is no different. There is only one God and every Christian knows this. I love the LORD. If you open your bible, you will find him.
Excited to watch this video. My friend escaped from this cult a while ago. So much pain
Why is it a cult? Just because they're a little unorthodox and some people might consider their beliefs heretical. That doesn't mean they are a cult at all.
There is no shunning if a person leaves. They continue to have a loving relationship with their friends and family. If one family does react harshly, that's on that family. The same way some families would be very upset if their child left Catholicism, baptist, or any other faith.
@@CC-dv5eb The group she was a part of was called the two by two and it was absolutely a cult. Loads of sexual abuse, legalism, fear of the outside world, and so so much more. That may not be the experience of everyone in this group, but having heard her story from someone on the inside, I will always consider this group a Cult
@elijahmcgrath5918 Is the catholic church a cult?
Escaped? It’s not a cult. You can freely leave. This would be a Christian sect.
@@CC-dv5eb sure you can freely leave. And yes, your family will probably still accept you. However, 99% of them will pressure you to return to the fold, and 99% of them will choose convention over coming to see you. And your entire social network will drop out from under you, because the friends are encouraged to not be friends with the world. And in many cases, if one spouse leaves, the marriage terminates because the marriage was actually based on the church--in fact, we are told "put God first and the marriage will fall into place..." but that actually means "put the church first," because you aren't supposed to be married to someone from a different church...defined as being "unequally yoked..." But you're right, you're free to leave at anytime...
Thanks for making this. I lost my twin brother to them recently here in Oregon.
‘So sorry to hear that! I hope/pray he sees through their false teachings and finds his way out.
personally i disagree to how you worded that. i am a
member of the faith, the only faith that can give true joy and hope that there is an eternal kingdom and to say that you ‘ lost you twin’ is disappointing as he now has decided to devote his life to god.
We have 2x2 extraction tools on our channel and website.
@@sineArmstrong "the only faith that can give true joy and hope" They aren't
I love ur videos. They're so cool. I have a BA and MA in History and I have an MDiv as well. But I love watching ur videos.
There is so much I like that they teach and yet their missing a few key doctrines. I love the home church aspects.
Too bad it's resulted in 400 "workers" being called out for child rape. Other than that, the home church aspect is great! /s. Google wings for truth to get an idea of how absolutely terrible the home church model has worked out for them. - ex member
@@brianwill5929 The offenders aren't all workers (preachers) though. And not all are child rape. The number is around 500 now workers, friends (members), elders names have been given to the PI working on these cases. The PI has been given 500 names of offenders. another ex member
There are some aspects of the church that are attractive, but run away. This is not the church you are looking for.
@@landonwork9869 It definitely isn't the church you are looking for. I agree run away.from an ex member
Now 700+ CSA/SA offenders have been named and fbi is investigating this religion
In Michigan, they had district meeting mostly in Township halls. This was 35 yrs ago when my wife and I attended meetings.
Can't tell you if they rented the halls.
Lots of drama in The Truth lately. Theyre under much deserved scrutiny.
We have attended a convention a few times, having been invited by people in the group. In this particular area, the congregational singing is done without any accompaniment (a capella), as that would single out someone to play an instrument, and would be against the equality of all. Also, we have never heard an actual sermon, or message from the Bible, but instead different speakers tell about their experiences as witnesses. These experiences tend to sound quite a bit alike, even to the sentences and phrases used. I was able to buy a used hymnal to add to my hymnal collection, and the words of well-known hymns are often altered.
Yes at conventions its very rare to have a piano. Though most gospel meetings do have a player from the congregation play the piano if there's one available. It normally switches every week who's playing depending who's in attendance. A lot of the friends specifically teach their children piano for this reason I think. Also it is odd to only have testimonies from experience, not bible verses. That is rare and must have been special. I often find personal experiences can be so interesting and rewarding to hear. They can be a huge boost in faith. Normally sermons from workers are very scriptural. Perhaps was it the friends taking part instead? The normal congregation does often do very brief short testimonials of thankfulness. It's more different in our bible study.
yes--the words of the hymns are specifically altered to fit in with the 2x2 doctrine of "we don't believe in the trinity." For example, the common traditional hymn "When I survey" has a line: "Forbid it Lord, that I should boast, save in the cross of Christ my God" and the 2x2 version changed that line to "save in the cross of Christ my Lord" to emphasize that Jesus is not God.
100% Accurate. Well presented and researched.
Impressively comprehensive, I have 2 minor additions. In cases of divorce and remarriage one usually isn't kept from partaking in meeting, but they are asked not to speak in them. Also, the teaching of tv, movies and other modern media being negative is all but extinct. Most workers will openly discuss films they've watched, and only some of the older ones still occasionally preach against video games.
Thanks for this.
Very good and concise presentation on the 2x2's.
It would be funny if it were not tragic that the faith that denies the divinity of Christ is the faith that rejects the most important part of being saved, which Jesus said himself. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. .."
You think that's bad, doctrine is the least of their problems. Google "Wings for Truth" to read 400+ cases of child rape and sexual assault carried out and covered up by the workers and overseers.
There is only one church that can trace back to Christ. I wasted 20 years because of this cult. Today, I'm finally at peace in the Orthodox Church! ☦️☦️☦️
It is interesting that they say that we must work at our Salvation least that's the way I understand it and that it is an ongoing process. I do not hold to this I call it sanctification and thanked application is something that goes on until we leave this life and go on to a greater life where the sanctification can then be completed.
so, if you have to be converted by hearing, what happens if you’re deaf?
That's a very obscure doctrine within the truth, only a minority would believe that. The majority (including workers) believe that it's ones own personal relationship with God that matters. Most do believe that often the workers do receive light from God sometimes during their sermons. Because we pray to God that they might speak on matters that are important to us on that particular day. And they do help us spiritually.
@@CC-dv5eb wow! the workers always told us we couldn't have a personal relationship with god, that they had to intercede for us! that teaching was one on my list for leaving
@@user-ui8hc6gf3c We are taught that Jesus intercedes for us.
I grew up going to meetings every Sunday and even gospels out of town on Wednesdays
Its so surreal learning about all this when ive already been in it so long
(Feel free to let me know if you want wayy more detail, as surpising this is a simplified version of everything) As for things you addressed, it isn't necessarily the workers who are responsible for recruiting members , as 'the friends' would regularly be the reason that new people joined. At one stage I went around with a few of the friends to hand deliver a 'brochure' that detailed where our major church service was ( the service usually occuring an hour in the afternoon).
It was mainly the older generation who hated technology, a lot of the modern day workers owning phones/laptops to call people and write emails.
Sunday service is split up between two 'meetings': the first was in the home of the 'elder', which lasted about an hour. This meeting has roughly a group of 10-15 members from a certain part of the town/city who commune together, each of the 'professing' members getting a turn to speak. You can 'profess' at any age, however, the younger you were when you chose to commit, the more celebrated you were. Of course they were happy if you did whatever age, as long as you did. The second meeting was called a mission, and this pertains all the members of the city who are apart of the group who come to listen to the workers. Each of the two workers speak for about half and hour each, and this is how the second hour usually went. Periodically (like once a month), unprofessing members were given the opportunity to profess, by standing up at the end of service to show all the other members that they were ready to serve god.
The meeting format was: Hymn, Prayers, hymn, testimonies, bread and wine, hymn.
The mission: worker 2 prayer, hymn, worker 1 speaks, hymn, worker 2 speakers, hymn, final prayer Worker 1
I grew up in this church in USA 30 years ago we often only went to one meeting on Sunday, sometimes went to two ("& Sunday service is split up between two 'meetings': the first was in the home of the 'elder', which lasted about an hour.) And I don't think the second meeting on Sunday was called a mission where we were.
I agree. I too grew up in it and have never heard of mission. It was always special meetings or gospel meetings. Where we were, workers had a large area to cover so we only had gospel meeting like once every 1 or 2 months. Special meetings were all day Sunday events where all the workers in our state attended and spoke. These occurred throughout the year in different areas. We usually went to at least 3 or 4 within a few hours from home.
@@hotshot2011 I'm thinking they ma call it missions or a mission in Australia
I think my mother took me to one of these meetings. It was in a home and I don't remember the service much, except it seemed very quiet. We didn't go back because my mother was offended or disagreed with something they told her or preached.
Thanks for the objective viewpoint. So often people interject judgments on what they say rather than give the information. I find the doctrine (what you say of it) to be not much different than what a lot of sects believe. Some mainline denominational people think their way is the only way. This isn't really all that different. I find that females looking like females and men looking like men to be a refreshing difference from the world.
I see a lot of the lesser known Presbyterian Doctrine (among the members) included in the 2 by 2 doctrine. Presbyterian Churches tend to focus on happy stuff and Jesus, son of God rah rah rah. Sermons and doctrinal study and discussion isn't a big part of basic church members. In addition to a morning and sometimes evening Sunday Services, there is usually only a men's group, women's group, Sunday School, teen group and maybe if a group is overly represented enough (like a single's group, you may find that as well in addition of a choir. There isn't a lot of intense bible study, unless you request it and often, the minister has only a basic grasp of the finer points of the faith and more than likely didn't go much further than learning the basics at Bible College. Intense debates are so rare (and Presbyterians so tender-footed) that when a debate comes up, it can get really nasty, (probably from holding it in for years, like we do). I do see some doctrine that is unique to Presbyterian doctrine, which is worth acknowledging seeing as the first guy was saved by a Presbyterian Minister.
I noticed the convention list for 2023- can you share the link of where you got this and are there more details about where exactly the conventions in these cities will be held? I’m within an hour of where a convention will be held and I’d be interested to observe one of their conventions, though I would not be interested in converting 😄
Normally their convention only for member or someone that have invitation. So you can't just show up in the door.
@@HowkeyR As a member, this isn't really true. Conventions are generally very open to non-members. They are big and no one would really notice if someone just walked in and joined a meeting. Workers often hold weekly gospel meetings that are a more traditional sermon-based service.
@@HowkeyR Conventions are very open to non-members. I recommend attending the evening meeting as it's only an hour long and a more traditional service. Still, conventions aren't publicly advertised (that I know of) and are held on private property, so an invitation or awareness of the church is often needed.
That’s interesting- so if I wanted to attend the meeting in Georgetown, Texas in October but I don’t know anyone attending the convention how would I find out where in Georgetown the convention is being held?
@@alexthornhill6448 It might be Google-able, but if you were able to establish contact with a worker (or even one of the friends) in that state, you could get it pretty easily.
My grandparents were a part of this .
Standing on the third verse of a hymn to profess before a man,is initiation into a secret society
According to Wikipedia, William Irvine ought to be pronounced as [ˈwɪljəm ˈɜːɹ̠ʷvɪn] in the IPA.
Thanks.
There was once a Christian band in the UK which was called The Band With No Name
There are a lot of two by twos in Juneau Alaska.
I want to say I think the Bible publisher RL Allan might have connections with one of these groups? They print their hymnal.
They stated they don't have any connections with them other than publishing hymns old and new