As a person with full time job and a father of two with limited time to play I appreciate the current state of mythic+ especially after recent crest change and this anti depletion on +12 is a welcome change. As a tank main I just managed to time all +12s (done two 13s already) and I must admit it was valuable struggle, it made me rethink my strategies and that taught me how to become a better player. Players who demand further dumbing down of the system to gain access to higher key levels, should get good, not ask for free stuff. Just sit on 10's if you are not willing to learn.
@@Garbage315 No clue. I just made a 25 minute video discussing and explaining it and people still aren't on the same page, so im not sure what to even say here. Seems like its just really confusing no matter what haha
We've asked for affixes to be removed, we've asked for key depletions to be removed. Blizzard listened and removed both for.... only 1% of the players. Why?
I think it’s that you’re so gassed up on what YOU think mythic plus should be that you think little of the people who don’t “progress through mythic plus” the way you do.
@@Midknight9123 I'm just responding to the system as its designed. When you make an infinite scaling difficulty system with infinite progression through a scoring metric, and people willingly ignore all that AND still complain about the difficulty while doing so, I don't really know how that can be taken seriously. Like I said, I get why it might happen. People are perfunctory in their actions here. They JUST want gear. But its pretty clear if you follow the system's design that giving you gear is not the primary function. All you need to do is go back to Challenge Modes to see the origins of M+.
I think the way it's meant to read is. "After reaching 2850 rating, if you have a 12 or above keystone, it can only be downgraded below a 12 by player choice through Lindormi. Weekly keys from the vault can only go as low as 12." Which means I guess after you have 2850 you can keep slamming your key and farm crests, based on the new crest drop rate system (12s dropping one item upgrades worth of crest upon depletion). Like, they already made a fix to the crest system and then decided we didn't go far enough. I think the bar is in the wrong place completely. Like, imagine it was "Warband keystones cannot be depleted until they are level 12". That makes more sense to me, rather than ensuring I've got a crest farm key on my main. 13s, 16s, 20s whatever, they will still deplete as normal
Judging by the wording of "Unified" I think it means "Any failure to counter the afflix will give 50-100% damage, rather than the haste or damage or healing or damage reduction buffs that were given before".
12:50 keys failing at 10 and lower isn't necessarily leavers. There are just many people that don't understand what's going on. Recently I tried to help a friend learn to tank on a new char; the affix was Xal'atath's Bargain: Devour. The pugs were 2 dps and a resto druid. I was helping on my best geared alt an Unholy DK, changed my talents to take Unyielding Will so I can dispel myself. My friend as tank gets healed and does enough self-heal to nullify the affix. The resto druid is basically just hotting things (as is tradition) but it is not enough to dispel the affix every time and the 2 dps have no idea what the hell is going (as is also tradition; follow tank, zug zug and if +12 complain about route). Now all of a sudden packs get healed 10-30% at random, bosses gain anywhere from 20 to 120% hp per fight and it ends up with a simple +8 requiring the dps output of a M+14. Needless to say; it wasn't timed. Fun thing is, all 3 could dispel themselves but explaining it to them is like talking to a wall. They just assume it's part of the dungeon a boss' hp goes from 10% back to 40%. The run after a Mage refused to try to dispel himself after I pointed it out cause "IS POISON". Not a single attempt was made. M+10 and lower is hell cause of the incompetence of a few.
I feel like everyone is misreading the xalataths guile, it's increasing the key level from 10% to 12% and removing the flat 10% health and dmg buff it currently is, basically making there be an easier entry to the lower high keys but it will eventually scale to be harder than it currently is around the 16 key level
Possibly. What specifically makes you think that in the way it's worded? It probably is the case though considering how strange it is to just buff it by two percent.
@@heythereguysitsMetro guile is a flat 10% dmg and health increase, the buff i think even says she revokes her bargains and increases the health and damage of mobs by 10%. The article says it's redesigned and the keystone scaling above 12 is going to change from 10% to 12%, so to me that sounds like they are trying to make the entry into higher keys isn't as harsh, but eventually you'll catch up to how hard keys are right now and eventually get even harder than what we have now at the title range of keys. TLDR removing the flat 10% dmg/health increase and making the keystone just scale up to make the jump not as harsh.
@@tagor416 no, only keys above 12 would start adding the 2% to the scaling based off how it is worded. It's not all of a sudden we're going to throw the 26% onto a 13. Trying to find a better way to explain it. Currently it's, 10% dmg/health keystone scaling/fort/tyran/at 12 10%dmg and health from xalatath guile. With the change it'd be 10% dmg/health keystone scaling/fort/tyran/above 12 keystone scaling will swap to 12% instead of 10%.
TBH I read it that guile does not cause a sudden jump at 12, instead it CHANGES the scaling from 10% to 12%, meaning that they get harder slightly faster than before.
They said guile has been redesigned buffing it by 2% is not redesigning it, so that makes me think its definitely removing the 10% buff and switching the key increase per level by 2% meaning if an 11 is 100% a 12 is now 112% instead of the current 120% meaning that keys will be easier until 16's which will be the same as they are now (170%) and then 17+ will be increasingly harder than it is now.
While I find this change positive (at least till further clarifications happen), I'm kinda wondering is this the only one planned? Because most of the "TWW M+ Season 1 bad" discourse was about people stuck in queue simulator of 6-10 range, plagued by leavers, no tanks or healers and so on. Sure, it helps to protect your key, but only when you have the 2850+ rating (which is at minimum half of the dungos timed at 11 and the other half on 12) - in that range you don't need protection for 2-10 keys (assuming thats wowhead option 1) - maybe on alts? Tbh if that's the only change, then it feels like Blizz just slapped a solution without any deeper consideration, and called a day.
Initially I was like yeah they did the thing. Then I looked at the wording again and I figured they are once again not going to do what the community asks of them, they'll just implement a checkpoint. Not even multiple checkpoints, just a single one. I wonder how long will it take for a mass exodus to come, as a result of their stubborn declining of community requests.
The top 0.1 % wanted this, and those are the ones they listen to. I would argue that every bad decision they made is not because of "bad" feedback, but rather because of some decision making blizzard employee's incompetent filtering of feedback. Regarding depletion and no timer in M+: Removing the timer removes any incentive to try and improve at the game because there is no longer a limiting factor that forces a person to do so. And from a psychological standpoint following the law of averages, most people Need a force multiplier to incentivize pushing their limit to the next level. Both key depletion and the timer serve that purpose. Remove them and there is no reason to do anything higher than M0, because there is no accomplishment attached to doing a higher key other than it simply being a higher key.
You are assuming that it means ALL keys above 12 never deplete then, not what my interpretation was? Realistically if that happens is a MAJOR change to the game, and I just can't see that happening so casually.
I think this person didn’t even watch the video part way through lol. “The 0.1%”….. would mean people that literally NEVER drop a key to a 12 after the first week or so regardless, so this comment makes zero sense. Also, there being no incentive to do more than a M0 is just literal trash and would only be said by someone that probably is doing +5’s now at the end of the season
Are you going to look at the new Set Bonuses for Blood Death Knight? As far as what I can see about M+ changes I think most players who are determined to succeed and have generally been doing +12 keys or in that area will not be affected by this except that no depletion once attaining this title will have a bit more convenience but thats about it.
Weekly depletion? You have one week to complete a key at or above your current keystone. Vault gives you a new key (same as now), key level will be at the level you completed. If no key was completed in time then you get one level below last week’s key. Your current key doesn’t deplete by failing timer. It should only deplete if you choose to via npc or through vault.
Here's my thoughts: To me this sounds like a fix of the divide between m+2-11 and m+12+, because below 12s and above 12s, due to the affix change, have too many differences. Below 12 having an extra dispel is worth so much more if the dispel healing affix is active, the orbs that go to enemies are easier with more melee than range unless it is the 3rd boss in CoT. Like you said there are now 2 game modes, and by removing one variable (changing affixes) above 12 they now "fix" a new issue, which is "oh no when we deplete a 13 we have to redo a 12 what a waste of time we already did that". Like I know this exists a bit in raids unless it changed from the MoP days (where you could take IDs from the previous week and skip already killed bosses) but you'd forfeit loot, making it harder to down a new boss. In M+ an 11 gives the same gear as a 15, so loot wise, doing a 12 to a 15 or whatever makes no difference (except crests). So score is the driving force and they fucked themselves by having only one score. They could have implemented an affix score so doing a 12 in week 2 still gives rewards compared to a 12 in week 1. But since that does not exist, content feels redundant. I could go on about how maintaining alts being easy reinforces that but I also do not want to write an essay. Maybe over the holidays I will take some time and do a "what I think is wrong with m+" video but focus more on the community side, because I believe the community runs into many self made issues (meta speccs, maintaining too many alts etc) As always great video, I enjoy your content more every day!
I'm interested to see if the change to key depletion at level 12 makes it easier to pug at this keystone level. Will removing most of the punishment for failing to time a key result in more leniency when selecting people in the group finder? The keystone system will somewhat be split into two separate tiers. The "casual" levels for general players, and the "competitive" levels for people who do M+ as their main activity. I'm not sure why people are complaining, because in a way this is exactly what was asked for. The player base will now be somewhat segregated by how you choose to play the game: for progression, or for weekly gear. The separation is denoted by player skill, which is the purpose of a ranking system in most competitive games. Also, does this set the stage for a future dungeon finder queue system for keystone levels 2-11...hmmm?
You can get 2850 with 3 timed 12s and the rest as 2-chested 11s. This will be very good for people like my group edging between 11s and 12s because the constant move from hard 12s to easy 11s is soul-crushing. Since we can only do about 6-8 keys together per weekend, progression is extremely slow when we have to pump an 11 every time we fail a 12. It literally killed my static group until next season.
Ya I can imagine that is frustrating. Another cool thing is if one of your friends is a bit ahead, you can juts keep running their key with no penalty until you start getting into 13s.
@heythereguysitsMetro No, not remove entirely, but why not tie it with KSM? That's already the first milestone of mythic dungeons. From there, it's already progression to get Key Stone Hero (which the requirement it to time a 10), so it's helpful all around.
Likely because those dungeons are already designed to be easy enough that no additional levels of protection need to be considered. Its regular to have double and triple upgrades sub 10, so even going backwards one level for failure is far less punishing as you can likely just make up for it in the next run.
@heythereguysitsMetro Fair enough. My only gripe is yes, the shenanigans that happens in low keys. As this is the first time I have mained healing (2450 io heading to KSH, yes, I admit I have my mess ups, and I will always take balme in chat when we wipe due to me), but when a tank buster is about to happen and I am focusing on the tank, and a dps decides to stand in the puddle it gets frustrating trying to preform a miracles over and over lol.
@@KazeNoYurei Well best thing I can offer is for you to record the runs and send in the funny ones for us to laugh at, OR send in the ones you feel like you need help with and we can all help you improve. Sub KSH there should be no question everyone has a LOT of room for improvement, but sadly the pug element isn't helping.
if 12s can no longer deplete thats perfect. let me spam +12s without the affixes. let +12s be a meeting point for people who want to push keys and then let me progress with them forward. this season we had like 3 weeks where we constantly had to do 12 11 12 11 and so on and it was frustrating as hell. noone needes the 11s noone wanted to do them but we had to. so the way i understand these changes topnotch
I still don't understand why there is a split at +12. M+ is supposed to be hard; we get it. So why not just make it as it's intended to be? Author's note: That is a question for Blizzard. I keep getting the feeling that Blizz has spent the last decade or so overthinking themselves.
*It seems a bit odd to make this checkpoint level for 12s. If the intent is to let high end players keep trying their key, why not stop all depletes after the having the achievement. Otherwise, this doesn’t help people doing 13+, literally only people who would be depleting 12s. Hopefully their next post will clarify further and cut through the confusion!
It's likely JUST there to further segregate this divide between 11 and 12. They are already very different so I guess they are just leaning into that. I also think they really want to get higher key players out of low keys. A lot of recent changes indicate that is on their mind. The changes to crests were pretty wild.
Reading how they mentioned achievement. There is a few milestones, Keystone conqueror, Keystone challenger, Keystone master, etc... If that the case then nothing will deplete unless you do it manually. Unless the wording is wrong; either way saying achievements is vague. Considering there quite a few achievement in M+ as you rank up.
metro, the war within LEGEND! i gotta say, your spreadsheet and run tracking system is actually kinda legendary lol. this is an interesting update. idk how to feel yet. thanks for covering this! I had no clue they announced / made this blue post. too busy working >_
I saw a video recently about 'one size fit all will fit nobody'. I think this is the main issue with Blizzard at the moment. They are trying to fit as many dungeon preferences into M+ as possible. In my opinion FFXIV has chosen a more pragmatic approach. If I'm not mistaken they have been experimenting with different dungeon modes. I don't think Blizzard should change M+ too much. They should iterate on it for the people who like the M+ concept and they could create a different mode for people who dislike it. The new mode doesn't have infinite scaling, doesn't have a timer. It just a harder version of the dungeon on two difficulties above the Mythic Dungeon. One equal to heroic raid difficulty which reward heroic track gear and one equal to mythic raiding. Furthermore there is a weekly lookout for these dungeons. The increased difficulty can come from just scaling the numbers or maybe change things with affixes. Try it out for 2 seasons. If it is not played, just kill it. Maybe tune it in such a way that each boss in the dungeon is harder than the previous one and have drops per boss. They should just go crazy with this new mode and try things out.
2850 is 4-5 12s depending on your 11s and two chesting those. Still a a lot of luck involved to even time those with the current pugs community :D. I think the idea is good but what is it like for group comps? Lets say you are the only one that has 2850 in your group. Do you need to start the key to save it or is it group wide? I see a lot of bug potential there :D
I made comment on that to you on last video, it was deleted tho and my guess is it was off topic. So will write it again. What you suggest i want to. However you gotta think one step a head. Currently we have tank and healer shortage. What you suggest would increase the amount off groups in finder. Now what makes you believe tanks or healers will continue to queue up for keys they want to do when they can form their own group and be in full control off what gets inv? I didn't really think about that myself and i play tank. I thought it be great for a lot off ppl who struggle to get into keys but thinking about it, i simply think it would make it far worse than it is now. I can tell you right now, if that system was implemented today i would nevet sign up for a key again. Not when i can choose what i want and get fast signups as i'm a tank and ppl would queue up for those kind off groups first for sure. Ppl would have to wait even longer for tanks and healers, competition to get into groups would be even higher due to ppl would choose groups with a tank or healer as they are more likely to be formed in a timely manner.
Believe that Guile rework just means that past +12 M+ will scale +12% instead of +10%? Indicating that keys 13 and higher will be "easier" or "nerfed" than this season, at least up to a certain point (+17??)
To me the pain point for depletion hits the majority of players where the vault is concerned, (10 down to 9) or the crest jump (8 down to 7). All this to me seems to be the perfect solution for people that can clear 12's, boost people through their weeklies without loosing their key level when/if they don't time it. Am I off base here or missing something, but this doesn't seem to address or attempt to address the problem a the majority of people have with the depletion system. They people that push keys at say 16-17 probably wont be depleting keys down to 12-13 range. Realisitcially this only helps people that are struggling to push through the 12 affix to 13's and people that organise boost groups for weeklies.
Problem is the "majority" is just not actually progging. So that's not something that's going to be addressed obviously. The low keys aren't difficult enough that they need to be strategizing ways to make it even easier for people to finish 8 keys a week. The system is meant to be about progression first and foremost, so it essentially invalidates that whole discussion when you just choose to never participate in that.
I’m commenting before finishing the video so maybe I’m making a mistake. I could see a world where each major achievement could replicate this key depletion protection. As an example, get a score of 1250 and keys won’t drop below a 5. 2500 score protects a 10. (Score and key level might vary I don’t remember exact cutoff)
I recently found this channel and you got some solid takes. I think a protection system for the people that will never complete 12s needs to be in the game. Its my key i invite you and they treat me like shit then leave is one of the worst feeling in the world and your key is lower.
Ya it's an utterly horrendous feeling. I believe I drafted the ultimate system to help that problem but it fell on dead ears when I tried to present it.
I'm so glad to finally hear someone blame the community and not Blizzard. This season was so shit because the community thought it was a good idea not to bring healers into Mythic+, so Blizzard had to make them relevant again. Mythics are supposed to be challenging not something that hands out participation rewards. Like the one commentor was trying to reference how in raiding, you don't get rewards for wiping on a boss only when you beat it. Yet in M you get loot, score and a vault slot for failing a key at the price of one level depletion but because the community is so toxic they choose to fuck over the rest of the group by leaving so no one gets anything. That's on them not the system. Everyone is always trying to point fingers at other things like blaming delves for failed mid keys. With so many addons these days and the information available on players you bring into your group, at the end of the day it's on you. The brackets from M are pretty set, it's the whole reason they have achievements for them. So, if you want to drop out of your league and play with others that are less than you, you can't complain that they suck, or they brick your key because honestly you shouldn't be playing with them in the first place. As for the dude wanting to experiment, you can drop a 12 to a 10 and go wild fail, it'll drop to a 9 and if you can't 3 chest that back to a 12 then that's clearly a skill issue. Thanks, if you read this whole thing, don't worry I won't forget my soap box. Cheers!
You are correct about that if not every, but most stupid decisions can be traced to someone crying it's too hard for them to get full bis max ilvl gear. To be fair, Blizzard has done enough of stupid on their own, but essentially, yes. People want changes in systems they don't understand fully and how it will actually become worse, and if you tell them that, they call you elitist. Honestly, give people what they need, not what they want. Devs are devs and players are players, and we should stick to our roles. But seriously, just buff tanks and healers, and everything will go quite and then do design changes.
hahah ya ironically this dude who watches my channel all the time just called me a POS for matter-of-factly saying just that to him. Its really crazy how far this entitlement has gotten.
My take on this is it seems rough. Like for example lets say i struggle all season to get my 10's done, than i get one 11 timed, so i now have a 12. Since that 12 will never go down I can just literally keep runing my own key over and over and over and over until i time all my twelves. Theres going to be so many +12 keys in the pug finder becasue someone timed and 11 once and doesnt wanna drop their key below the 11
It sounds like it won't deplete only after you get the 2850 io achievement. So your 12 will still deplete until you complete all 12s and get to 2850 io.
If I read it right you get free key bricks up to 12s at 2850. What does that even do for m+ overall? Most of the game doesn't even do those and the guys who do will still brick their 13s and up. The affix changes that make things like the emissary buffing stuff during bad times not happen is probably the best thing in there for most players. It's not a bad change and lower stuff is still mostly on the players but I think we need a lot more to make the whole key experience better. I've heard good ideas like your currency one or 1 free bricking every week but blizzard seems stuck on the punish them a lot, as often and for as little as possible mentality with mythic+ which is the source of all the problems. This and the small crest change don't do much about that.
Ya, sadly its also the source of all the progression haha. Keys would be entirely different without depletions, so it needs to be a nuanced system to encourage that removal. I think a lot of people simply want to never see this level of failure, which blizzard does not agree shoudl exist, so we are in a bind here. But considering they can;t even properly explain their changes, who knows haha
I read it as keys below 12 dont deplete. which is cool. also complete hunter rework again... also aug just got nuked .. cant buff tanks/healers anymore.. today is a great day
So, they are just reinforcing what they already created with step up from 11 to 12, pepega stage and chad stage. Once you go through pepega stage they will never mix you with the peasants again. Sounds correct?
If its for 12+ keys not depleting this great for groups like mine who wanna prog over 12s but tiny mistakes keep pushing us back down. Bad pug, missed kicks, minor routing errors etc. This means high end players who have no real reason to be sub 12 can completely avoid the inferior bargain affixes. But its also not so hand holdy that it invalidates progression. The fear removing depletes entirely voids some of the friction of progression is valid. Earning 2850 seems FAIR since being pushed into 11s can be worse than being stuck at 12s since you are forced to compensate for mechanics that dont exist where you are actyally progressing. I also think it makes that push to 3k plus feel more approachable in pugs.
@heythereguysitsMetro im hoping the changes to end key rewards as well as this new goal post between ksh and 3k (what people have been asking for at least since dragon flight) it reduces to total number of leavers and increases the number completed keys timed or untimed. Although im wondering if the changes will also evoke a general attitude shift in the pug world over all? Will leaving be reduced? Will the toxicity express differently? Im hoping for a possitive shift.
seemed easy to understand to me, once you hit the 12 keys they stop depleting for you if you have that achievement, meaning you have to earn this. I personally dont see any issues, I appreciate the comment about being able to practice new things in harder keys without wasting time getting back up. I really dont see why anyone is mad here its severely confusing me. This is a way to stop high keys from being ruined by those who are carried or dont care to learn the game. My issue with getting to 12 and 13 is that when I host my key it gets ruined consistently when people dont know mechanics, want to take control of the pulls when im the tank or the occasional mistake I may make causing a wipe. This is also a good way to reduce the toxicity everyone loves to exude in my experience. It changes nothing in lower keys that I can see, which is a different argument that nobody seems to be addressing. Theyre just complaining that this exists for some reason?
See, that's not what I think they are doing though. Its ONLY so keys never go below 12 again once you have it. Nothing more. That's how I read it. Its possible I will be wrong, but its certainly not easy to understand as no one can agree on anything in this post haha
Have they announced fixing the absolutely horrible loot that drops and amount of gold from m+ or they going to just keep creating different mini games with the mini game of mythic plus, that is within the mmoArpg that is wow.
You have 2 kinds of players. Those who want maximum gear for minimal effort, and those who try to progress trough content no matter what the system is. The hurtful truth for those who can't time a +10 for the weakly vault is that they don't really deserve the gear and should be happy with less itlvl. My question for players who just want to do the weekly and be done with it is: Why do you need mythic gear if you don't want to use it in higher level content? But I guess it is in our nature to want the best stuff even if we do not need it... The best part is, that players who get all the gear they want, after playing the game with minimal effort, usually stop playing short after that. I bet, if blizzard put a button for completing the dungeon without playing it, it would be the most pressed button in the game :).
You just need to read, Requirement : the achievement, Reward: you can do 12's over and over. This will be bad for people doing 10's because the good players that can do 12's will be gone to 12's forever, never doing 10's anymore once they reach that achievement.
Honestly that's really how it should be. People only go down to 10s because there are too many leavers to reliable finish your vault in progression keys. It should NEVER be the goal to have good players carrying bad just for gear rewards. There really shouldn't even BE gear rewards tbh.
@@heythereguysitsMetroWell the majority of players are only doing m+ for the mythic item in their vault which they get from 10s. So this change of splitting off the good players (those that can do 12s), from majority of players is bad for the majority of players. But blizzard loves investing lots of development time and catter to that 1% of players, look at mythic raiding. If they are going to do this they should also make it so the mythic item from the vault requires m12 runs.
@@trancer03 I think its quite fair to say that people ONLY using M+ for gearing are just not playing within the intended design of the system though. So them acting without considering that type of player isn't surprising. The goal is infinite difficulty and progression, not "farm gear."
@@heythereguysitsMetro If that's been blizzards goal. they sure have a strange way of showing it. This achievement would be the first time ever they give something to people beyond keystone hero. Besides the 0.1% title. Blizzard was not seriously waiting for hundreds of thousands of players to try reach the 0.1 title if they engaged with m+ were they?
@@trancer03 Not sure what you are trying to say here, but I don't think its really deniable so I'm not really keen on debating it. What did you think the point of having an infinite difficulty and scoring metric were for if its not for progression? I guess a lot of people just think its for peacocking at the end of the day, so I am not surprised if you too failed to see passed the most basic view on it all.
😊I love that they are beginning splitting the pushers from the regular players. Its best for all parties. All are just trying to enjoy the game. If we want to do content lower with our friends we always can and will. Yes it is possible to do rating without depletion. Tourney realm players live this way. You get to practice with no penalty. For those of us who take keys seriously, who study vods, who are making weak auras for thwir teams this is exactly what we needed. We cant prog unless we see it. Some pulls require seeing it 6 or 7 times over 3 different ideas, then we hit the vod, run our number theory, plan cds and roll. Hard to do on live as is. Must have tournament realm access to do as of today. As far as score goes, an untimed key currently is worth points up to i think 40% over time. This is the new "deplete" you get what score you get based on how high the key is and how fast you did it. Simple. On Tourney realm you pick your key and its level and affixes. What is wrong with being on a toon i know is ready for the 12, and grabbing the key i need???? Affixes would be set becuase of live realm, but srsly, what is wrong with that?
Brother you have mentioned this tourney realm thing four times in one post when I have never heard it mentioned a single time ever in the context of key depletion and difficulty. What is this fixation you have on this? You think its unfair that some people are able to practice on there and not everyone is or something? Isn't that realm only open for actual events where people are progressing and looking to earn money? Are people actually spending significant time on there and getting an edge over you in live keys?
Whenever you make an emergency video I know it's something good. And I wasn't disappointed. if it's what I think, and what I HOPE it is then I'm very excited about this change! I would like to simply see this applied throughout the whole range. I think people should be able to just keep doing the same level until they wanna lower it. But, I'm not the game desinger what do I know lol. either way this is pretty cool stuff. It seems blizz is doing little things here and there recently for mythic+ I can't wait to hear more!
for the achievement, they should lower the rating requirement to 2000 instead of 2850, I cant see any reason that it would be 2850, thats far too high for casual players, and its the casual players who suffer from key depletions the most so idk what blizzard is cooking here
The reason it's 2850 is half 12s and half 11s. This change is only for the top percentage of players and not the casual audience that hits 2k each season.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yes so, what I would do is make it so you need 2k instead of 2850 for the achievement, so keys no longer go below 12s (also makes a failed 10 not become a 9) if you have reached 2k rating, reason for that is because 2850 rating is unreachable for 99% of the players who do mythic plus, therefore 99% of players still have to deal with the key depletion system (which is bad in my opinion), which is why I would lower the requirement for the achievement that removes depletion to 2k which is attainable very easily
@@jongiles415 exactly my point, as a player who isnt 2850 I would still have to deal with my key being depleted if I fail a dungeon making a 10 key back to a 9 key for example, which in my opinion is not a good thing there is currently nothing else in the game that makes the players progression regress (to my knowledge atleast), WoW is famously the MMO that didnt make you lose XP when you died while other MMOs did do that, key depletion is similar in that it punishes the player in that way
@@qelifern-2894 First of all, 2850 is about 5 percent of all mythic+ players. Second of all, I still have zero idea what you are on about. A 2k score player hasn't even approached a 10 yet. Why does he get an achievement to make keys above 12 not go below 12s? The key depletion system is bad, but its not going to change the way you think it will. Its too integral to progression. There needs to be a major system overhaul for that to go. Doing a few 7s is not on the table for that to happen.
Hmm interesting..I dont feel any type of way about this tbh..seems reasonable ig..personally never had a problem to begin with as far as the timer goes but either way its cool lol..ready for some season 2 tho since i got a little late start on season 1 this xpac.
2850 is the new 2500 w/ this. I like the change in theory but it's not going to fix the actual problem w/ people leaving groups for toxic reasons - and changes that address that are way more desired than "just" fixing the key level depletion for people who do ... lower than 12's but their skill level is higher than 12s? It's half cooked, but they could easily continue to add changes.
@@heythereguysitsMetro 2500 only gave you a tier piece and people make that a goal for themselves every season - 2850 is going to give you the ability to do your weekly 10's without worrying about it taking 10x as long because of depletes. I think people will see this as something they need to do to make the most of their overall time in the game - even moreso than getting a tier token, because mythic gear from the vault can be catalyzed AND there are no more tier token rewards from 2500 - just a catalyst charge.
@@alexjay8257 I don't understand what you mean about weekly 10s and taking 10x as long. This appears to be ONLY for keys higher than 12 not going below 12. You mean instead of 10 people will just fill vault on 12s now?
@@heythereguysitsMetro no i mean that for people who are currently only concerned with vault and not IO, its in their best interest to get this achievement so that they can do keys with their guild or friends to fill 3 slots with 10s. It's a quality of life improvement for the entire m+ system that everyone who gets any sort of player power or enjoyment from the system should theoretically want. I want it for 12's, but I can see how people are going to be greatly tempted to start doing higher content JUST to get the buff to keys and not because they actually want to do all 11s and a few 12's.
@@heythereguysitsMetro the way it's written would only make sense if it applied to all keys that the character does lower than a 12 - unless they lower it themselves. Why else would it be important to include the line "Keystone can still be lowered below level 12 by speaking to Lindormi". If you have this achievement, it wouldnt make sense that you could lower your key, brick it, and have it get lowered by not completing it by the timer. I'm reading it as giving you the choice what to do with your key for the week once you've made it to 11/12s. Push io, or lower it down and just farm 10s over and over, whether they're timed or not - because you never lose the 10.
Metro, I think you're getting unfairly tackled by a lot of people here who play M+ not for fun, but for the "Carrot" of the Myth gear vault. And there's a lot of players that will never time 12s that want no key depletion and the easiest possible Myth vault. That's maybe where a disconnect is. From your perspective and playstyle your arguments make complete sense to me - and I do believe for the subset of players this matters to these are good changes.
Oh ya, that level of entitlement I am at war with tbh, so no surprise there. Like I said in the video, those people are simply not playing M+ properly as per the design, so I don't know why they expect Blizzard to want to make their lives even easier if they aren't going to progress with that new-found ease.
This is so stupid. They're doing things nobody asked for and creating more of a divide and showing how disconnected they are from the community. I don't want a no deplete system, but as long as the dungeons are tuned correctly and classes (especially tanks) are tuned correctly, we should be good in season 2. But man, these upcoming dungeons have a high chance of being REALLY bad.
@@KrowDD214 I think it was pretty clear. I’m not asking for a system where the keys don’t deplete. Many ask for this, but it isn’t the only solution or THE solution. Tuning easily fixes this. Players taking the time to progress their characters fixes this. Learning content fixes this. If Blizzard did this (and they might, who knows) then the goalpost will be moved again. And again and again. At the end of the day, no matter what the system is, the bad, toxic lazy players will make it a bad experience for others. If you can find a system to fix that 100%, work for Blizzard or better yet, your own company
@@heythereguysitsMetro either they did it on purpose or they just dont know how to read and should go back to primary school. lmao. probably wowhead redactors are from my country Perú and thats why they misunderstood the pretty clear statement....
its crazy how the key level can throw ya off even if ya do only one , did a 12 mist it was so satisfying , then go to my alt and do a 10 and ohhh shit what affix is this week again? moment lol. As for the post , yes i think you will have to reach that score then your keys and alt keys wont deplete . its like the new reward cause .. portals arent making it now. The way is written is indeed confusing , i had the same face expression when i was reading it a few mins ago. a WUUUTTT??? face xD
I read the Xal’atath’s Guile redesign as just increasing the rate at which dungeons get harder after +12. +11 is 10% harder than +10 +12 is 10% harder than +11 +13 is 12% harder than +12 +14 is 12% harder than + 13 So instead of having a big jump from +11 to +12, the rate at which dungeons difficulty increases is bumped up a bit. So +12 through +16 are easier, +17 is roughly the same in both systems and everything +18 or higher is harder than it previously was.
wait but isn't currently 13s 10% harder than 12s? how can that make 12 to 16 easier?? if there is an increase in 2% in comparison with today's standard?
Depletion shouldn't exist at all. There is zero reason for keys to deplete when there is an npc that lowers keys. Depletion doesn't do anything but cause strain on players. But hey good players don't got to deal with that anymore, amirite bois?
Huh? they absolutely still do. But yes, again I AGREE depletion should not exist. But it does, and Blizzard disagrees with us, so if we want that to change, we need to make a compelling argument as to why, and how they can change it in a way to still match their goals. Are you up for that challenge?
The way i see it, they basically made a change for those people looking for higher IO and i guess maybe the challenge of completing higher keys. This doesn't help anyone trying to just do 10s every week for the vault. 10's being the highest reward and still being really difficult for the vast majority of players still have to deal with all the bull shit. This literally does nothing for the game if you look at it from a player % based issue. All they did was make it easier for people to practice higher keys that will never matter. Look at the MDI and the level keys they are running. 9s-11s? 12s do not matter and never will. Why not just give players the option after completing all 10s to pick whatever level key they want to run and try it out at this point? They did nothing for the people actually struggling with the system and if you're running 13s or 14s or higher and complaining then that's your own problem for doing content that gives you a score that only you care about personally and nothing else. This is a huge waste of time and i can't get on board with any of it.
Its not something you need to get on board with, and the whining does not help your case. They aren't going to just allow you to pick your own dungeon brother. You need to think about this from their shoes if you want change. I tried to explain that in the video, so idk what else to say. This entitlement is out of control though, and its ruining this game. If you are struggling to succeed in 10s, you need to improve at the game. That's really all there is to it. Until you have, do not be blaming Blizzard for not changing stuff to make that easier for you.
@heythereguysitsMetro I'm not struggling, the majority of players are. I also wasn't whining, I was specifying what the issue is and making a comment on it. I think you tend to take everything people say as a negative. Just because you enjoy and succeed at higher keys doesn't mean you are the only person/opinion that matters. What you should be is happy that I'm watching your video and commenting on it instead of being rude to me. This will be the last time I watch. Thx for making this easy.
@heythereguysitsMetro that response says it all. You act like a child, and for your age, that's really friggin sad. You do not help the wow community at all and you're a toxin in your own community. Pugging makes sense now. I dont think people actually like you. I'm not the only person you've been a POS to in your comment section either. They have a word for your disability. Therapy may help.
Brother if you think I am being a "POS" for any of the things I have said here today its you who needs therapy. Do us both a favor and don't waste your time watching this channel. Its not for you.
@ I’m not sure if it’s character bound to my main or if my alt goes into a key and it gets depleted then I don’t get it. Maybe I wrong and did t read it correctly.
I interpret the new key depletion the system the same as you: keys 12 and below will no longer deplete. You asked what the point of this is? Alts. With this achievement being account-wide, the grind back up to 12s should be less painful. This may (hopefully) even result in more key runners mid/late season.
My interpretation was your key will no longer deplete below a 12 - after - you get the 2850 achievement. So you will still have 12s deplete until you get the achievement.
I agree this doesn’t really do anything! I’m one of the who enjoyed my self this season. people are overreacting and this season drought isn’t any different. Idk seems like yall didn’t play in BFA because this is much better! Moreover, there is a problem with the scaling from 11 to 12 it shouldn’t be so drastic! M+ isn’t really that hard under 8-9s is like heroic raiding.
Ya, they made a bad system here thanks to bad feedback and we are now going to live through changes season after season addressing this instead of just keeping what we had before which was fine.
Ya, I think my system is the only way to solve this. Not because I want it, really. Just because it makes the most sense from Blizzard's end to encourage more hours spent in the system with less penalty for failure.
It honestly makes doing keys less stressful for when leavers leave you can run out and rebuild the group and run it back up too 12s. And for those who can't do 12s, gives them something to strive for so when they actually reach 12s they might be good enough to start doing 13s. I think its good for when you accidently invite someone who payed for there keys under 12 and they brick it, you can kick them and get someone who actually worked for their score. Or It would also get rid of alot of toxicity for lower keys when you are have bad players and you can just finish the key as well and not have to worry about too much of a loss because you dont lose the key. Pugs are usually in the 12s and below range most groups doing higher usually have premades or groups they trust.
@heythereguysitsMetro just from watching some of your previous keys alot of people with 12s or 13s got a +++9 or +++10 and that was there highest key kinda showed a carry because there damage wasn't there or wasn't good enough. But now you will start seeing people who can reach 12 stay at that level and try for a 12 on every key. It sounds like they are trying to help people with the skills to reach 12 with their key stay in a range where most decent players are and not fall back into elo hell when the get a 12 and then have 3 or 4 fail groups and now they are tyring to push their 8 back out of elo hell. If that makes sense...
Idc ill keep buying mercs for gold to get my rewards, much more efficient for me with how much i get paid. These changes give me no incentive to actually play.
Oh I definitely care, however my time isn't being respected. Let's say I want to climb and I don't have a static group to do that with well then I'm forced to pug. Pugging is always a mixed bag, maybe I'll get some pet rocks? Maybe I'll get some professionals? If I get some professionals chances are high we'll do alright, time the key and get slightly better. Now if I'm with some pet rocks now I learn nothing and go down a level and I'm forced to waste time getting the key back to where it was just to try again. It doesn't matter at what level, if you're constantly forced to keep leveling the key back to where it once was your time isn't being respected. If I can get the key to a certain level but not increase it cool there's the wall I can't climb over until I get better. Forced to go down and up again to try again isn't doing much. Their other IPs have similar systems and none of them have deplete mechanics to them anymore for this reason. If you can play AT a certain level there is no reason to be forced down if you are unsuccessful, that should ultimately be a player decision which is why the key lowering npc is there. I just want certain rewards so I get them and I stay at those key levels. In this case I'm not going to waste my time going up and down playing with pugs rolling the dice, I'll toss some gold at people and get it.
2850 is not all 12s timed. I think it's like 6x 12, 2x 11. Clearly idea is that you're "seasoned" in +12s, you don't just get it off of your first +12. I think it's fine change. When you get above certain level, you don't want to go back to grinding lower keys. +12 seems like the perfect bracket for that. People have hated the 11++ into double deplete repeat cycle. Let them farm +12s at that point when they've clearly dominating lower keys. If this affects game negatively, it can be changed back in s3. Many have asked there to be less punishment for depletions, this would be one way to test it, without going overboard with something like no key will ever deplete again. High key players just will never see +11 again.
High key players never see an 11 again either way though, is why this is perplexing. Its a fine change though. Just likely doesn't matter for almost anyone, other than maybe people who are stuck at 12 currently.
I think this is where I unsub man, the elitist attitude is pretty disappointing and calling people stupid for wanting changes that you don't like is pretty shitty. In the same way that you're allowed to have your own opinions on the state of the game so are other people, and it doesn't make them stupid. Talking down to people doesn't make you edgy or funny. Anyways, good luck and enjoy.
Its not about things I don't like. Its about things that are never going to happen. If you aren't able to understand that and actually contribute to real changes for this system, then ya don't watch this channel.
I think there was just an overwhelming expectation that Blizzard was going to do this one thing that was likely never on the table, and they jumped to conclusions.
I really dont understand why its confusing at all, its pretty clear what it says! " Failing to clear a Mythic+ dungeon within the timer will no longer reduce the level of your Keystones below 12 for the season." Period!
As a person with full time job and a father of two with limited time to play I appreciate the current state of mythic+ especially after recent crest change and this anti depletion on +12 is a welcome change. As a tank main I just managed to time all +12s (done two 13s already) and I must admit it was valuable struggle, it made me rethink my strategies and that taught me how to become a better player. Players who demand further dumbing down of the system to gain access to higher key levels, should get good, not ask for free stuff. Just sit on 10's if you are not willing to learn.
It would be cool if KSM KSH also got depletion checkpoints.
I think this is JUST for that stupid divide they created between 11 and 12.
More like 5% ish if the player base my guy
It's definitely gonna make 11's gatekept out the wazoo, that's for sure.
Why 11?
@@heythereguysitsMetro Did I read the patch notes wrong? Aren't 12+ keys now essentially immune to depletion now?
@@Garbage315 No clue. I just made a 25 minute video discussing and explaining it and people still aren't on the same page, so im not sure what to even say here.
Seems like its just really confusing no matter what haha
@@Garbage315 the way I read it was if you deplete a 13 it drops to a 12, but if you deplete a 12 it stays a 12
We've asked for affixes to be removed, we've asked for key depletions to be removed. Blizzard listened and removed both for.... only 1% of the players. Why?
I feel that you're becoming one of those elite 0.1% players and out of touch with the main player base
That's probably because the "main player base" is out of touch with what the Mythic+ system is designed to do.
I think it’s that you’re so gassed up on what YOU think mythic plus should be that you think little of the people who don’t “progress through mythic plus” the way you do.
“You’re playing it wrong” who says you’re playing it right?
@@Midknight9123 I'm just responding to the system as its designed. When you make an infinite scaling difficulty system with infinite progression through a scoring metric, and people willingly ignore all that AND still complain about the difficulty while doing so, I don't really know how that can be taken seriously.
Like I said, I get why it might happen. People are perfunctory in their actions here. They JUST want gear. But its pretty clear if you follow the system's design that giving you gear is not the primary function.
All you need to do is go back to Challenge Modes to see the origins of M+.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Naw man, spending 12 hours a day in a trailer does not qualify you as "elite". Dont let them discount you like that
I think the way it's meant to read is.
"After reaching 2850 rating, if you have a 12 or above keystone, it can only be downgraded below a 12 by player choice through Lindormi.
Weekly keys from the vault can only go as low as 12."
Which means I guess after you have 2850 you can keep slamming your key and farm crests, based on the new crest drop rate system (12s dropping one item upgrades worth of crest upon depletion).
Like, they already made a fix to the crest system and then decided we didn't go far enough. I think the bar is in the wrong place completely. Like, imagine it was "Warband keystones cannot be depleted until they are level 12". That makes more sense to me, rather than ensuring I've got a crest farm key on my main.
13s, 16s, 20s whatever, they will still deplete as normal
Hmm ya I don't think its that, but if it is we will certainly be making a new video.
Judging by the wording of "Unified" I think it means
"Any failure to counter the afflix will give 50-100% damage, rather than the haste or damage or healing or damage reduction buffs that were given before".
@@ight001 ya I think thats it
@@heythereguysitsMetro Sorry yeah, let me re-word it. TL;DR 13s would be able to deplete but not 12s
12:50 keys failing at 10 and lower isn't necessarily leavers. There are just many people that don't understand what's going on.
Recently I tried to help a friend learn to tank on a new char; the affix was Xal'atath's Bargain: Devour. The pugs were 2 dps and a resto druid. I was helping on my best geared alt an Unholy DK, changed my talents to take Unyielding Will so I can dispel myself. My friend as tank gets healed and does enough self-heal to nullify the affix. The resto druid is basically just hotting things (as is tradition) but it is not enough to dispel the affix every time and the 2 dps have no idea what the hell is going (as is also tradition; follow tank, zug zug and if +12 complain about route).
Now all of a sudden packs get healed 10-30% at random, bosses gain anywhere from 20 to 120% hp per fight and it ends up with a simple +8 requiring the dps output of a M+14. Needless to say; it wasn't timed.
Fun thing is, all 3 could dispel themselves but explaining it to them is like talking to a wall. They just assume it's part of the dungeon a boss' hp goes from 10% back to 40%. The run after a Mage refused to try to dispel himself after I pointed it out cause "IS POISON". Not a single attempt was made.
M+10 and lower is hell cause of the incompetence of a few.
I feel like everyone is misreading the xalataths guile, it's increasing the key level from 10% to 12% and removing the flat 10% health and dmg buff it currently is, basically making there be an easier entry to the lower high keys but it will eventually scale to be harder than it currently is around the 16 key level
Possibly. What specifically makes you think that in the way it's worded? It probably is the case though considering how strange it is to just buff it by two percent.
@@heythereguysitsMetro guile is a flat 10% dmg and health increase, the buff i think even says she revokes her bargains and increases the health and damage of mobs by 10%. The article says it's redesigned and the keystone scaling above 12 is going to change from 10% to 12%, so to me that sounds like they are trying to make the entry into higher keys isn't as harsh, but eventually you'll catch up to how hard keys are right now and eventually get even harder than what we have now at the title range of keys. TLDR removing the flat 10% dmg/health increase and making the keystone just scale up to make the jump not as harsh.
Ya so 2% times 12 is 22-24% more dmg and health then what 12 would be without the affix
@@tagor416 no, only keys above 12 would start adding the 2% to the scaling based off how it is worded. It's not all of a sudden we're going to throw the 26% onto a 13.
Trying to find a better way to explain it.
Currently it's, 10% dmg/health keystone scaling/fort/tyran/at 12 10%dmg and health from xalatath guile.
With the change it'd be 10% dmg/health keystone scaling/fort/tyran/above 12 keystone scaling will swap to 12% instead of 10%.
TBH I read it that guile does not cause a sudden jump at 12, instead it CHANGES the scaling from 10% to 12%, meaning that they get harder slightly faster than before.
They said guile has been redesigned buffing it by 2% is not redesigning it, so that makes me think its definitely removing the 10% buff and switching the key increase per level by 2% meaning if an 11 is 100% a 12 is now 112% instead of the current 120% meaning that keys will be easier until 16's which will be the same as they are now (170%) and then 17+ will be increasingly harder than it is now.
While I find this change positive (at least till further clarifications happen), I'm kinda wondering is this the only one planned?
Because most of the "TWW M+ Season 1 bad" discourse was about people stuck in queue simulator of 6-10 range, plagued by leavers, no tanks or healers and so on.
Sure, it helps to protect your key, but only when you have the 2850+ rating (which is at minimum half of the dungos timed at 11 and the other half on 12) - in that range you don't need protection for 2-10 keys (assuming thats wowhead option 1) - maybe on alts?
Tbh if that's the only change, then it feels like Blizz just slapped a solution without any deeper consideration, and called a day.
I really doubt this is protection for keys below 12. That seems like the least likely option.
Initially I was like yeah they did the thing. Then I looked at the wording again and I figured they are once again not going to do what the community asks of them, they'll just implement a checkpoint. Not even multiple checkpoints, just a single one. I wonder how long will it take for a mass exodus to come, as a result of their stubborn declining of community requests.
The problem is the community is asking for something that can't come. That's a major issue with this game now.
the community has proven again and again to be completely worthless to listen to
@@heythereguysitsMetro thats what they always do.
Community realistically is the reason why things are the way they are.
The top 0.1 % wanted this, and those are the ones they listen to.
I would argue that every bad decision they made is not because of "bad" feedback, but rather because of some decision making blizzard employee's incompetent filtering of feedback.
Regarding depletion and no timer in M+:
Removing the timer removes any incentive to try and improve at the game because there is no longer a limiting factor that forces a person to do so.
And from a psychological standpoint following the law of averages, most people Need a force multiplier to incentivize pushing their limit to the next level.
Both key depletion and the timer serve that purpose.
Remove them and there is no reason to do anything higher than M0, because there is no accomplishment attached to doing a higher key other than it simply being a higher key.
You are assuming that it means ALL keys above 12 never deplete then, not what my interpretation was? Realistically if that happens is a MAJOR change to the game, and I just can't see that happening so casually.
I think this person didn’t even watch the video part way through lol. “The 0.1%”….. would mean people that literally NEVER drop a key to a 12 after the first week or so regardless, so this comment makes zero sense. Also, there being no incentive to do more than a M0 is just literal trash and would only be said by someone that probably is doing +5’s now at the end of the season
Are you going to look at the new Set Bonuses for Blood Death Knight? As far as what I can see about M+ changes I think most players who are determined to succeed and have generally been doing +12 keys or in that area will not be affected by this except that no depletion once attaining this title will have a bit more convenience but thats about it.
I may make a video rounding up all the other posts at some point. We will see how much it gets discussed tomorrow
Weekly depletion? You have one week to complete a key at or above your current keystone. Vault gives you a new key (same as now), key level will be at the level you completed. If no key was completed in time then you get one level below last week’s key. Your current key doesn’t deplete by failing timer. It should only deplete if you choose to via npc or through vault.
At least you are thinking in the right direction!
Will the aug change be a whole separate video? Just curious lol
That spec seems like its gonna basically be deleted lol, im sure you will be happy to never see one again
haha ya idk probably wont make a video on it.
All good makes sense! Lol
Here's my thoughts:
To me this sounds like a fix of the divide between m+2-11 and m+12+, because below 12s and above 12s, due to the affix change, have too many differences. Below 12 having an extra dispel is worth so much more if the dispel healing affix is active, the orbs that go to enemies are easier with more melee than range unless it is the 3rd boss in CoT.
Like you said there are now 2 game modes, and by removing one variable (changing affixes) above 12 they now "fix" a new issue, which is "oh no when we deplete a 13 we have to redo a 12 what a waste of time we already did that". Like I know this exists a bit in raids unless it changed from the MoP days (where you could take IDs from the previous week and skip already killed bosses) but you'd forfeit loot, making it harder to down a new boss.
In M+ an 11 gives the same gear as a 15, so loot wise, doing a 12 to a 15 or whatever makes no difference (except crests). So score is the driving force and they fucked themselves by having only one score. They could have implemented an affix score so doing a 12 in week 2 still gives rewards compared to a 12 in week 1. But since that does not exist, content feels redundant.
I could go on about how maintaining alts being easy reinforces that but I also do not want to write an essay. Maybe over the holidays I will take some time and do a "what I think is wrong with m+" video but focus more on the community side, because I believe the community runs into many self made issues (meta speccs, maintaining too many alts etc)
As always great video, I enjoy your content more every day!
I'm interested to see if the change to key depletion at level 12 makes it easier to pug at this keystone level. Will removing most of the punishment for failing to time a key result in more leniency when selecting people in the group finder? The keystone system will somewhat be split into two separate tiers. The "casual" levels for general players, and the "competitive" levels for people who do M+ as their main activity. I'm not sure why people are complaining, because in a way this is exactly what was asked for. The player base will now be somewhat segregated by how you choose to play the game: for progression, or for weekly gear. The separation is denoted by player skill, which is the purpose of a ranking system in most competitive games. Also, does this set the stage for a future dungeon finder queue system for keystone levels 2-11...hmmm?
@@lukenetherton5673 I think you are on the money with all of this, especially the last part. I'm convinced a soloQ system is coming!
You can get 2850 with 3 timed 12s and the rest as 2-chested 11s. This will be very good for people like my group edging between 11s and 12s because the constant move from hard 12s to easy 11s is soul-crushing. Since we can only do about 6-8 keys together per weekend, progression is extremely slow when we have to pump an 11 every time we fail a 12. It literally killed my static group until next season.
Ya I can imagine that is frustrating. Another cool thing is if one of your friends is a bit ahead, you can juts keep running their key with no penalty until you start getting into 13s.
That's a step in the right way but depletion happens before 2850 io...
You are thinking that they are removing depletions or something? I really don't think they are.
@heythereguysitsMetro No, not remove entirely, but why not tie it with KSM? That's already the first milestone of mythic dungeons. From there, it's already progression to get Key Stone Hero (which the requirement it to time a 10), so it's helpful all around.
Likely because those dungeons are already designed to be easy enough that no additional levels of protection need to be considered. Its regular to have double and triple upgrades sub 10, so even going backwards one level for failure is far less punishing as you can likely just make up for it in the next run.
@heythereguysitsMetro Fair enough. My only gripe is yes, the shenanigans that happens in low keys. As this is the first time I have mained healing (2450 io heading to KSH, yes, I admit I have my mess ups, and I will always take balme in chat when we wipe due to me), but when a tank buster is about to happen and I am focusing on the tank, and a dps decides to stand in the puddle it gets frustrating trying to preform a miracles over and over lol.
@@KazeNoYurei Well best thing I can offer is for you to record the runs and send in the funny ones for us to laugh at, OR send in the ones you feel like you need help with and we can all help you improve.
Sub KSH there should be no question everyone has a LOT of room for improvement, but sadly the pug element isn't helping.
if 12s can no longer deplete thats perfect. let me spam +12s without the affixes. let +12s be a meeting point for people who want to push keys and then let me progress with them forward. this season we had like 3 weeks where we constantly had to do 12 11 12 11 and so on and it was frustrating as hell. noone needes the 11s noone wanted to do them but we had to. so the way i understand these changes topnotch
I still don't understand why there is a split at +12. M+ is supposed to be hard; we get it. So why not just make it as it's intended to be? Author's note: That is a question for Blizzard. I keep getting the feeling that Blizz has spent the last decade or so overthinking themselves.
*It seems a bit odd to make this checkpoint level for 12s. If the intent is to let high end players keep trying their key, why not stop all depletes after the having the achievement. Otherwise, this doesn’t help people doing 13+, literally only people who would be depleting 12s. Hopefully their next post will clarify further and cut through the confusion!
It's likely JUST there to further segregate this divide between 11 and 12. They are already very different so I guess they are just leaning into that. I also think they really want to get higher key players out of low keys. A lot of recent changes indicate that is on their mind. The changes to crests were pretty wild.
Reading how they mentioned achievement. There is a few milestones, Keystone conqueror, Keystone challenger, Keystone master, etc... If that the case then nothing will deplete unless you do it manually. Unless the wording is wrong; either way saying achievements is vague.
Considering there quite a few achievement in M+ as you rank up.
Seems to me like its ONLY for keys above 12 to not go below 12.
who knows though. They need to explain this better.
metro, the war within LEGEND! i gotta say, your spreadsheet and run tracking system is actually kinda legendary lol. this is an interesting update. idk how to feel yet. thanks for covering this! I had no clue they announced / made this blue post. too busy working >_
Ya and the fact that there are like 10 articles made today haha
I saw a video recently about 'one size fit all will fit nobody'. I think this is the main issue with Blizzard at the moment. They are trying to fit as many dungeon preferences into M+ as possible. In my opinion FFXIV has chosen a more pragmatic approach. If I'm not mistaken they have been experimenting with different dungeon modes.
I don't think Blizzard should change M+ too much. They should iterate on it for the people who like the M+ concept and they could create a different mode for people who dislike it. The new mode doesn't have infinite scaling, doesn't have a timer. It just a harder version of the dungeon on two difficulties above the Mythic Dungeon. One equal to heroic raid difficulty which reward heroic track gear and one equal to mythic raiding. Furthermore there is a weekly lookout for these dungeons. The increased difficulty can come from just scaling the numbers or maybe change things with affixes. Try it out for 2 seasons. If it is not played, just kill it. Maybe tune it in such a way that each boss in the dungeon is harder than the previous one and have drops per boss. They should just go crazy with this new mode and try things out.
Plenty of people who cleared all dungeons at 12 still struggle to reclear at 12. This just makes those peoples keys spammable at 12.
Do they? I constantly get questioned why I rerun keys I already have for score. I was under the impression it was rare for this behavior to happen.
Your character in wow name is Metro and people know who you are so they will work to get in your runs to brick thr run
2850 is 4-5 12s depending on your 11s and two chesting those. Still a a lot of luck involved to even time those with the current pugs community :D. I think the idea is good but what is it like for group comps? Lets say you are the only one that has 2850 in your group. Do you need to start the key to save it or is it group wide? I see a lot of bug potential there :D
It's just for the key that's used, surely. If you have the achievement and you use your key it can't go below 12.
Remove keys, add a level choice when you walk through the portal. Bricking keys is just a time sink.
Ya that one I can't imagine is ever happening. But maybe if you can come up with a good system to go alongside it it will be considered!
@@heythereguysitsMetro Why do you need a system? There needs to be nothing about it. Change nothing, remove the keys. That's all.
@vladimirdosen6677 what evidence do you have that blizzard is willing to do that though?
@@heythereguysitsMetro none, obviously. I'm just saying what would people prefer
I made comment on that to you on last video, it was deleted tho and my guess is it was off topic.
So will write it again. What you suggest i want to. However you gotta think one step a head.
Currently we have tank and healer shortage. What you suggest would increase the amount off groups in finder.
Now what makes you believe tanks or healers will continue to queue up for keys they want to do when they can form their own group and be in full control off what gets inv?
I didn't really think about that myself and i play tank. I thought it be great for a lot off ppl who struggle to get into keys but thinking about it, i simply think it would make it far worse than it is now.
I can tell you right now, if that system was implemented today i would nevet sign up for a key again. Not when i can choose what i want and get fast signups as i'm a tank and ppl would queue up for those kind off groups first for sure.
Ppl would have to wait even longer for tanks and healers, competition to get into groups would be even higher due to ppl would choose groups with a tank or healer as they are more likely to be formed in a timely manner.
Believe that Guile rework just means that past +12 M+ will scale +12% instead of +10%?
Indicating that keys 13 and higher will be "easier" or "nerfed" than this season, at least up to a certain point (+17??)
Ya who knows lol. Wild that this whole post has only left us with more questions than answers.
To me the pain point for depletion hits the majority of players where the vault is concerned, (10 down to 9) or the crest jump (8 down to 7). All this to me seems to be the perfect solution for people that can clear 12's, boost people through their weeklies without loosing their key level when/if they don't time it. Am I off base here or missing something, but this doesn't seem to address or attempt to address the problem a the majority of people have with the depletion system. They people that push keys at say 16-17 probably wont be depleting keys down to 12-13 range. Realisitcially this only helps people that are struggling to push through the 12 affix to 13's and people that organise boost groups for weeklies.
Problem is the "majority" is just not actually progging. So that's not something that's going to be addressed obviously.
The low keys aren't difficult enough that they need to be strategizing ways to make it even easier for people to finish 8 keys a week.
The system is meant to be about progression first and foremost, so it essentially invalidates that whole discussion when you just choose to never participate in that.
keys were made to stop 1 map spamming the same dungeon. this doesn't matter anymore thanks to the raider io MMR. delete keys.
I’m commenting before finishing the video so maybe I’m making a mistake.
I could see a world where each major achievement could replicate this key depletion protection. As an example, get a score of 1250 and keys won’t drop below a 5. 2500 score protects a 10. (Score and key level might vary I don’t remember exact cutoff)
Ya I think this is JUST for the divide between 11 and 12.
I recently found this channel and you got some solid takes. I think a protection system for the people that will never complete 12s needs to be in the game. Its my key i invite you and they treat me like shit then leave is one of the worst feeling in the world and your key is lower.
Ya it's an utterly horrendous feeling. I believe I drafted the ultimate system to help that problem but it fell on dead ears when I tried to present it.
Of course you're a legend m8. And i mean that with ZERO sarcasm!
I'm so glad to finally hear someone blame the community and not Blizzard. This season was so shit because the community thought it was a good idea not to bring healers into Mythic+, so Blizzard had to make them relevant again. Mythics are supposed to be challenging not something that hands out participation rewards. Like the one commentor was trying to reference how in raiding, you don't get rewards for wiping on a boss only when you beat it. Yet in M you get loot, score and a vault slot for failing a key at the price of one level depletion but because the community is so toxic they choose to fuck over the rest of the group by leaving so no one gets anything. That's on them not the system. Everyone is always trying to point fingers at other things like blaming delves for failed mid keys. With so many addons these days and the information available on players you bring into your group, at the end of the day it's on you. The brackets from M are pretty set, it's the whole reason they have achievements for them. So, if you want to drop out of your league and play with others that are less than you, you can't complain that they suck, or they brick your key because honestly you shouldn't be playing with them in the first place. As for the dude wanting to experiment, you can drop a 12 to a 10 and go wild fail, it'll drop to a 9 and if you can't 3 chest that back to a 12 then that's clearly a skill issue. Thanks, if you read this whole thing, don't worry I won't forget my soap box. Cheers!
haha thanks for your passion!
You are correct about that if not every, but most stupid decisions can be traced to someone crying it's too hard for them to get full bis max ilvl gear. To be fair, Blizzard has done enough of stupid on their own, but essentially, yes. People want changes in systems they don't understand fully and how it will actually become worse, and if you tell them that, they call you elitist. Honestly, give people what they need, not what they want. Devs are devs and players are players, and we should stick to our roles. But seriously, just buff tanks and healers, and everything will go quite and then do design changes.
hahah ya ironically this dude who watches my channel all the time just called me a POS for matter-of-factly saying just that to him.
Its really crazy how far this entitlement has gotten.
My take on this is it seems rough. Like for example lets say i struggle all season to get my 10's done, than i get one 11 timed, so i now have a 12. Since that 12 will never go down I can just literally keep runing my own key over and over and over and over until i time all my twelves. Theres going to be so many +12 keys in the pug finder becasue someone timed and 11 once and doesnt wanna drop their key below the 11
Well you'd need to have timed at least 4 12s it seems for this to be the case.
@@KrowDD214 just an observation
I think when you get a new key for finishing a dungeon not in time that is considered a new key this can be lower
It sounds like it won't deplete only after you get the 2850 io achievement. So your 12 will still deplete until you complete all 12s and get to 2850 io.
@@jongiles415 rats
If I read it right you get free key bricks up to 12s at 2850. What does that even do for m+ overall? Most of the game doesn't even do those and the guys who do will still brick their 13s and up. The affix changes that make things like the emissary buffing stuff during bad times not happen is probably the best thing in there for most players. It's not a bad change and lower stuff is still mostly on the players but I think we need a lot more to make the whole key experience better. I've heard good ideas like your currency one or 1 free bricking every week but blizzard seems stuck on the punish them a lot, as often and for as little as possible mentality with mythic+ which is the source of all the problems. This and the small crest change don't do much about that.
Ya, sadly its also the source of all the progression haha. Keys would be entirely different without depletions, so it needs to be a nuanced system to encourage that removal. I think a lot of people simply want to never see this level of failure, which blizzard does not agree shoudl exist, so we are in a bind here.
But considering they can;t even properly explain their changes, who knows haha
I read it as keys below 12 dont deplete. which is cool. also complete hunter rework again... also aug just got nuked .. cant buff tanks/healers anymore.. today is a great day
Ya, I saw the Aug thing. Crazy.
where are the tank buffs, and the removal of CC not interrupting change man :(
Neither need to happen in my eyes, so asking the wrong person!
So, they are just reinforcing what they already created with step up from 11 to 12, pepega stage and chad stage. Once you go through pepega stage they will never mix you with the peasants again. Sounds correct?
That's what I'm seeing, minus the memespeak
If its for 12+ keys not depleting this great for groups like mine who wanna prog over 12s but tiny mistakes keep pushing us back down. Bad pug, missed kicks, minor routing errors etc.
This means high end players who have no real reason to be sub 12 can completely avoid the inferior bargain affixes.
But its also not so hand holdy that it invalidates progression.
The fear removing depletes entirely voids some of the friction of progression is valid. Earning 2850 seems FAIR since being pushed into 11s can be worse than being stuck at 12s since you are forced to compensate for mechanics that dont exist where you are actyally progressing.
I also think it makes that push to 3k plus feel more approachable in pugs.
Hope it will end up in a way you will be happy!
@heythereguysitsMetro im hoping the changes to end key rewards as well as this new goal post between ksh and 3k (what people have been asking for at least since dragon flight) it reduces to total number of leavers and increases the number completed keys timed or untimed.
Although im wondering if the changes will also evoke a general attitude shift in the pug world over all?
Will leaving be reduced? Will the toxicity express differently?
Im hoping for a possitive shift.
@@zizthesin I certainly am as well!
seemed easy to understand to me, once you hit the 12 keys they stop depleting for you if you have that achievement, meaning you have to earn this. I personally dont see any issues, I appreciate the comment about being able to practice new things in harder keys without wasting time getting back up. I really dont see why anyone is mad here its severely confusing me.
This is a way to stop high keys from being ruined by those who are carried or dont care to learn the game. My issue with getting to 12 and 13 is that when I host my key it gets ruined consistently when people dont know mechanics, want to take control of the pulls when im the tank or the occasional mistake I may make causing a wipe. This is also a good way to reduce the toxicity everyone loves to exude in my experience.
It changes nothing in lower keys that I can see, which is a different argument that nobody seems to be addressing. Theyre just complaining that this exists for some reason?
See, that's not what I think they are doing though. Its ONLY so keys never go below 12 again once you have it. Nothing more. That's how I read it. Its possible I will be wrong, but its certainly not easy to understand as no one can agree on anything in this post haha
Have they announced fixing the absolutely horrible loot that drops and amount of gold from m+ or they going to just keep creating different mini games with the mini game of mythic plus, that is within the mmoArpg that is wow.
No changes to loot, but gold was buffed per keylevel. I believe we got 255.77 from the 14 today.
You have 2 kinds of players. Those who want maximum gear for minimal effort, and those who try to progress trough content no matter what the system is. The hurtful truth for those who can't time a +10 for the weakly vault is that they don't really deserve the gear and should be happy with less itlvl. My question for players who just want to do the weekly and be done with it is: Why do you need mythic gear if you don't want to use it in higher level content? But I guess it is in our nature to want the best stuff even if we do not need it... The best part is, that players who get all the gear they want, after playing the game with minimal effort, usually stop playing short after that. I bet, if blizzard put a button for completing the dungeon without playing it, it would be the most pressed button in the game :).
You just need to read, Requirement : the achievement, Reward: you can do 12's over and over. This will be bad for people doing 10's because the good players that can do 12's will be gone to 12's forever, never doing 10's anymore once they reach that achievement.
Honestly that's really how it should be. People only go down to 10s because there are too many leavers to reliable finish your vault in progression keys. It should NEVER be the goal to have good players carrying bad just for gear rewards.
There really shouldn't even BE gear rewards tbh.
@@heythereguysitsMetroWell the majority of players are only doing m+ for the mythic item in their vault which they get from 10s. So this change of splitting off the good players (those that can do 12s), from majority of players is bad for the majority of players. But blizzard loves investing lots of development time and catter to that 1% of players, look at mythic raiding.
If they are going to do this they should also make it so the mythic item from the vault requires m12 runs.
@@trancer03 I think its quite fair to say that people ONLY using M+ for gearing are just not playing within the intended design of the system though.
So them acting without considering that type of player isn't surprising. The goal is infinite difficulty and progression, not "farm gear."
@@heythereguysitsMetro If that's been blizzards goal. they sure have a strange way of showing it. This achievement would be the first time ever they give something to people beyond keystone hero. Besides the 0.1% title. Blizzard was not seriously waiting for hundreds of thousands of players to try reach the 0.1 title if they engaged with m+ were they?
@@trancer03 Not sure what you are trying to say here, but I don't think its really deniable so I'm not really keen on debating it.
What did you think the point of having an infinite difficulty and scoring metric were for if its not for progression?
I guess a lot of people just think its for peacocking at the end of the day, so I am not surprised if you too failed to see passed the most basic view on it all.
😊I love that they are beginning splitting the pushers from the regular players. Its best for all parties. All are just trying to enjoy the game. If we want to do content lower with our friends we always can and will.
Yes it is possible to do rating without depletion. Tourney realm players live this way. You get to practice with no penalty. For those of us who take keys seriously, who study vods, who are making weak auras for thwir teams this is exactly what we needed. We cant prog unless we see it. Some pulls require seeing it 6 or 7 times over 3 different ideas, then we hit the vod, run our number theory, plan cds and roll. Hard to do on live as is. Must have tournament realm access to do as of today.
As far as score goes, an untimed key currently is worth points up to i think 40% over time. This is the new "deplete" you get what score you get based on how high the key is and how fast you did it. Simple. On Tourney realm you pick your key and its level and affixes. What is wrong with being on a toon i know is ready for the 12, and grabbing the key i need???? Affixes would be set becuase of live realm, but srsly, what is wrong with that?
Brother you have mentioned this tourney realm thing four times in one post when I have never heard it mentioned a single time ever in the context of key depletion and difficulty.
What is this fixation you have on this? You think its unfair that some people are able to practice on there and not everyone is or something? Isn't that realm only open for actual events where people are progressing and looking to earn money? Are people actually spending significant time on there and getting an edge over you in live keys?
Whenever you make an emergency video I know it's something good.
And I wasn't disappointed.
if it's what I think, and what I HOPE it is then I'm very excited about this change!
I would like to simply see this applied throughout the whole range. I think people should be
able to just keep doing the same level until they wanna lower it.
But, I'm not the game desinger what do I know lol.
either way this is pretty cool stuff. It seems blizz is doing little things here and there recently for mythic+ I
can't wait to hear more!
They are certainly more active in trying to fix problems then they have been in the past at least.
KSL is just a gift to those chasing title.
I don't think its a gift for anyone at all tbh
for the achievement, they should lower the rating requirement to 2000 instead of 2850, I cant see any reason that it would be 2850, thats far too high for casual players, and its the casual players who suffer from key depletions the most so idk what blizzard is cooking here
Huh? this is so keys don't go below 12s, what would 2k score do for that?
The reason it's 2850 is half 12s and half 11s. This change is only for the top percentage of players and not the casual audience that hits 2k each season.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yes so, what I would do is make it so you need 2k instead of 2850 for the achievement, so keys no longer go below 12s (also makes a failed 10 not become a 9) if you have reached 2k rating, reason for that is because 2850 rating is unreachable for 99% of the players who do mythic plus, therefore 99% of players still have to deal with the key depletion system (which is bad in my opinion), which is why I would lower the requirement for the achievement that removes depletion to 2k which is attainable very easily
@@jongiles415 exactly my point, as a player who isnt 2850 I would still have to deal with my key being depleted if I fail a dungeon making a 10 key back to a 9 key for example, which in my opinion is not a good thing
there is currently nothing else in the game that makes the players progression regress (to my knowledge atleast), WoW is famously the MMO that didnt make you lose XP when you died while other MMOs did do that, key depletion is similar in that it punishes the player in that way
@@qelifern-2894 First of all, 2850 is about 5 percent of all mythic+ players.
Second of all, I still have zero idea what you are on about. A 2k score player hasn't even approached a 10 yet. Why does he get an achievement to make keys above 12 not go below 12s?
The key depletion system is bad, but its not going to change the way you think it will. Its too integral to progression. There needs to be a major system overhaul for that to go.
Doing a few 7s is not on the table for that to happen.
Hmm interesting..I dont feel any type of way about this tbh..seems reasonable ig..personally never had a problem to begin with as far as the timer goes but either way its cool lol..ready for some season 2 tho since i got a little late start on season 1 this xpac.
Hope you'll enjoy it!
2850 is the new 2500 w/ this. I like the change in theory but it's not going to fix the actual problem w/ people leaving groups for toxic reasons - and changes that address that are way more desired than "just" fixing the key level depletion for people who do ... lower than 12's but their skill level is higher than 12s? It's half cooked, but they could easily continue to add changes.
I don't think those two things are in any way related tbh. But its good that they are at least thinking about the topic after years of nothing.
@@heythereguysitsMetro 2500 only gave you a tier piece and people make that a goal for themselves every season - 2850 is going to give you the ability to do your weekly 10's without worrying about it taking 10x as long because of depletes. I think people will see this as something they need to do to make the most of their overall time in the game - even moreso than getting a tier token, because mythic gear from the vault can be catalyzed AND there are no more tier token rewards from 2500 - just a catalyst charge.
@@alexjay8257 I don't understand what you mean about weekly 10s and taking 10x as long. This appears to be ONLY for keys higher than 12 not going below 12.
You mean instead of 10 people will just fill vault on 12s now?
@@heythereguysitsMetro no i mean that for people who are currently only concerned with vault and not IO, its in their best interest to get this achievement so that they can do keys with their guild or friends to fill 3 slots with 10s. It's a quality of life improvement for the entire m+ system that everyone who gets any sort of player power or enjoyment from the system should theoretically want. I want it for 12's, but I can see how people are going to be greatly tempted to start doing higher content JUST to get the buff to keys and not because they actually want to do all 11s and a few 12's.
@@heythereguysitsMetro the way it's written would only make sense if it applied to all keys that the character does lower than a 12 - unless they lower it themselves. Why else would it be important to include the line "Keystone can still be lowered below level 12 by speaking to Lindormi". If you have this achievement, it wouldnt make sense that you could lower your key, brick it, and have it get lowered by not completing it by the timer. I'm reading it as giving you the choice what to do with your key for the week once you've made it to 11/12s. Push io, or lower it down and just farm 10s over and over, whether they're timed or not - because you never lose the 10.
It's like Mythic + and Mythic ++
Metro, I think you're getting unfairly tackled by a lot of people here who play M+ not for fun, but for the "Carrot" of the Myth gear vault. And there's a lot of players that will never time 12s that want no key depletion and the easiest possible Myth vault. That's maybe where a disconnect is. From your perspective and playstyle your arguments make complete sense to me - and I do believe for the subset of players this matters to these are good changes.
Oh ya, that level of entitlement I am at war with tbh, so no surprise there. Like I said in the video, those people are simply not playing M+ properly as per the design, so I don't know why they expect Blizzard to want to make their lives even easier if they aren't going to progress with that new-found ease.
This is so stupid. They're doing things nobody asked for and creating more of a divide and showing how disconnected they are from the community. I don't want a no deplete system, but as long as the dungeons are tuned correctly and classes (especially tanks) are tuned correctly, we should be good in season 2. But man, these upcoming dungeons have a high chance of being REALLY bad.
Oh ya? I'm excited for everything other than the brand new dungeon haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro With these strange announcements I’ve got a bad feeling about season 2. I welcome Blizzard to prove me wrong
@@KrowDD214 I think it was pretty clear. I’m not asking for a system where the keys don’t deplete. Many ask for this, but it isn’t the only solution or THE solution. Tuning easily fixes this. Players taking the time to progress their characters fixes this. Learning content fixes this. If Blizzard did this (and they might, who knows) then the goalpost will be moved again. And again and again. At the end of the day, no matter what the system is, the bad, toxic lazy players will make it a bad experience for others. If you can find a system to fix that 100%, work for Blizzard or better yet, your own company
If you're 2850 and you're in someone else's +10, can that key deplete or does it have to be YOUR key? System is so cooked.
Its only your key of course.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Another thing to gate keep
@@paneoce just tossing out as many buzzwords as possible huh?
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah tbh i had too much to drink and idk what im saying
Yeah the wowhead name is a bit clickbaity. Pretty sure it'll just go down to 12 and stop there. Gotta play the comment bait game to get interactions.
Ya, really bad if they actually did this on purpose. I think they just misunderstood though tbh
@@heythereguysitsMetro either they did it on purpose or they just dont know how to read and should go back to primary school. lmao. probably wowhead redactors are from my country Perú and thats why they misunderstood the pretty clear statement....
its crazy how the key level can throw ya off even if ya do only one , did a 12 mist it was so satisfying , then go to my alt and do a 10 and ohhh shit what affix is this week again? moment lol. As for the post , yes i think you will have to reach that score then your keys and alt keys wont deplete . its like the new reward cause .. portals arent making it now. The way is written is indeed confusing , i had the same face expression when i was reading it a few mins ago. a WUUUTTT??? face xD
Ya crazy that so many different interpretations of it can be made.
it ok cuz if 1 of your friends has 2850 you`re now playing +12 risk free
Provided they are willing to do every key with you, I suppose so. It shouldn't be hard to pug that level though.
@ tru
I read the Xal’atath’s Guile redesign as just increasing the rate at which dungeons get harder after +12.
+11 is 10% harder than +10
+12 is 10% harder than +11
+13 is 12% harder than +12
+14 is 12% harder than + 13
So instead of having a big jump from +11 to +12, the rate at which dungeons difficulty increases is bumped up a bit.
So +12 through +16 are easier, +17 is roughly the same in both systems and everything +18 or higher is harder than it previously was.
Very possible.
wait but isn't currently 13s 10% harder than 12s? how can that make 12 to 16 easier?? if there is an increase in 2% in comparison with today's standard?
Yea, I'm not even playing Season 2. I checked out weeks ago. Been slamming POE2.
Season 2 wont be out until late Feb it looks like.
Depletion shouldn't exist at all. There is zero reason for keys to deplete when there is an npc that lowers keys. Depletion doesn't do anything but cause strain on players. But hey good players don't got to deal with that anymore, amirite bois?
Huh? they absolutely still do.
But yes, again I AGREE depletion should not exist. But it does, and Blizzard disagrees with us, so if we want that to change, we need to make a compelling argument as to why, and how they can change it in a way to still match their goals.
Are you up for that challenge?
The way i see it, they basically made a change for those people looking for higher IO and i guess maybe the challenge of completing higher keys. This doesn't help anyone trying to just do 10s every week for the vault. 10's being the highest reward and still being really difficult for the vast majority of players still have to deal with all the bull shit. This literally does nothing for the game if you look at it from a player % based issue. All they did was make it easier for people to practice higher keys that will never matter. Look at the MDI and the level keys they are running. 9s-11s? 12s do not matter and never will. Why not just give players the option after completing all 10s to pick whatever level key they want to run and try it out at this point? They did nothing for the people actually struggling with the system and if you're running 13s or 14s or higher and complaining then that's your own problem for doing content that gives you a score that only you care about personally and nothing else. This is a huge waste of time and i can't get on board with any of it.
Its not something you need to get on board with, and the whining does not help your case. They aren't going to just allow you to pick your own dungeon brother.
You need to think about this from their shoes if you want change.
I tried to explain that in the video, so idk what else to say.
This entitlement is out of control though, and its ruining this game.
If you are struggling to succeed in 10s, you need to improve at the game. That's really all there is to it. Until you have, do not be blaming Blizzard for not changing stuff to make that easier for you.
@heythereguysitsMetro I'm not struggling, the majority of players are. I also wasn't whining, I was specifying what the issue is and making a comment on it. I think you tend to take everything people say as a negative. Just because you enjoy and succeed at higher keys doesn't mean you are the only person/opinion that matters. What you should be is happy that I'm watching your video and commenting on it instead of being rude to me. This will be the last time I watch. Thx for making this easy.
@@stelthy3450 My pleasure!
@heythereguysitsMetro that response says it all. You act like a child, and for your age, that's really friggin sad. You do not help the wow community at all and you're a toxin in your own community. Pugging makes sense now. I dont think people actually like you. I'm not the only person you've been a POS to in your comment section either. They have a word for your disability. Therapy may help.
Brother if you think I am being a "POS" for any of the things I have said here today its you who needs therapy. Do us both a favor and don't waste your time watching this channel. Its not for you.
i just give up all my hope for the game gl everyone i quite
Also once I got the achievement requirements I would never step foot in a m+ again. That’s so counterintuitive to make people want to play.
Why's that?
@ I’m not sure if it’s character bound to my main or if my alt goes into a key and it gets depleted then I don’t get it. Maybe I wrong and did t read it correctly.
@@exies87 It says its account wide.
I interpret the new key depletion the system the same as you: keys 12 and below will no longer deplete. You asked what the point of this is? Alts. With this achievement being account-wide, the grind back up to 12s should be less painful. This may (hopefully) even result in more key runners mid/late season.
That's not the way I interpreted it.
My interpretation was your key will no longer deplete below a 12 - after - you get the 2850 achievement. So you will still have 12s deplete until you get the achievement.
@ yes, agreed. I meant after the achievement.
I agree this doesn’t really do anything! I’m one of the who enjoyed my self this season. people are overreacting and this season drought isn’t any different. Idk seems like yall didn’t play in BFA because this is much better! Moreover, there is a problem with the scaling from 11 to 12 it shouldn’t be so drastic! M+ isn’t really that hard under 8-9s is like heroic raiding.
Ya, they made a bad system here thanks to bad feedback and we are now going to live through changes season after season addressing this instead of just keeping what we had before which was fine.
@@heythereguysitsMetrowell, people blame blizzard for all their problems and look for a scape goat! Good grief! Keep up the good work!
Thanks!
@@heythereguysitsMetrooh I do think your key protection is a good idea!
Ya, I think my system is the only way to solve this. Not because I want it, really. Just because it makes the most sense from Blizzard's end to encourage more hours spent in the system with less penalty for failure.
It honestly makes doing keys less stressful for when leavers leave you can run out and rebuild the group and run it back up too 12s. And for those who can't do 12s, gives them something to strive for so when they actually reach 12s they might be good enough to start doing 13s. I think its good for when you accidently invite someone who payed for there keys under 12 and they brick it, you can kick them and get someone who actually worked for their score. Or It would also get rid of alot of toxicity for lower keys when you are have bad players and you can just finish the key as well and not have to worry about too much of a loss because you dont lose the key. Pugs are usually in the 12s and below range most groups doing higher usually have premades or groups they trust.
Maybe! I don't think it will accomplish that goal but its certainly a wait-and-see sort of deal at this point.
@heythereguysitsMetro just from watching some of your previous keys alot of people with 12s or 13s got a +++9 or +++10 and that was there highest key kinda showed a carry because there damage wasn't there or wasn't good enough. But now you will start seeing people who can reach 12 stay at that level and try for a 12 on every key. It sounds like they are trying to help people with the skills to reach 12 with their key stay in a range where most decent players are and not fall back into elo hell when the get a 12 and then have 3 or 4 fail groups and now they are tyring to push their 8 back out of elo hell. If that makes sense...
@@thelastspectre8141 Maybe!
Idc ill keep buying mercs for gold to get my rewards, much more efficient for me with how much i get paid. These changes give me no incentive to actually play.
what is "mercs for gold?"
The trade spammers
@@specter2k no idea what you are on about. You are talking about buying boosts? What's the point of even doing that if you don't care about the game?
Oh I definitely care, however my time isn't being respected. Let's say I want to climb and I don't have a static group to do that with well then I'm forced to pug. Pugging is always a mixed bag, maybe I'll get some pet rocks? Maybe I'll get some professionals? If I get some professionals chances are high we'll do alright, time the key and get slightly better. Now if I'm with some pet rocks now I learn nothing and go down a level and I'm forced to waste time getting the key back to where it was just to try again. It doesn't matter at what level, if you're constantly forced to keep leveling the key back to where it once was your time isn't being respected. If I can get the key to a certain level but not increase it cool there's the wall I can't climb over until I get better. Forced to go down and up again to try again isn't doing much. Their other IPs have similar systems and none of them have deplete mechanics to them anymore for this reason. If you can play AT a certain level there is no reason to be forced down if you are unsuccessful, that should ultimately be a player decision which is why the key lowering npc is there. I just want certain rewards so I get them and I stay at those key levels. In this case I'm not going to waste my time going up and down playing with pugs rolling the dice, I'll toss some gold at people and get it.
Also lololol at my response being a stupid paragraph over a game.
Metro, how do you feel about the addon changes? I've been saying for years addons are overpowered.
Unaware of what they are sorry.
2850 is not all 12s timed. I think it's like 6x 12, 2x 11. Clearly idea is that you're "seasoned" in +12s, you don't just get it off of your first +12.
I think it's fine change. When you get above certain level, you don't want to go back to grinding lower keys. +12 seems like the perfect bracket for that. People have hated the 11++ into double deplete repeat cycle. Let them farm +12s at that point when they've clearly dominating lower keys.
If this affects game negatively, it can be changed back in s3. Many have asked there to be less punishment for depletions, this would be one way to test it, without going overboard with something like no key will ever deplete again. High key players just will never see +11 again.
High key players never see an 11 again either way though, is why this is perplexing.
Its a fine change though. Just likely doesn't matter for almost anyone, other than maybe people who are stuck at 12 currently.
I think this is where I unsub man, the elitist attitude is pretty disappointing and calling people stupid for wanting changes that you don't like is pretty shitty. In the same way that you're allowed to have your own opinions on the state of the game so are other people, and it doesn't make them stupid. Talking down to people doesn't make you edgy or funny.
Anyways, good luck and enjoy.
Its not about things I don't like. Its about things that are never going to happen.
If you aren't able to understand that and actually contribute to real changes for this system, then ya don't watch this channel.
people in wowhead dont know how to read
I think there was just an overwhelming expectation that Blizzard was going to do this one thing that was likely never on the table, and they jumped to conclusions.
I really dont understand why its confusing at all, its pretty clear what it says! " Failing to clear a Mythic+ dungeon within the timer will no longer reduce the level of your Keystones below 12 for the season." Period!