Let's Talk LUFS
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2024
- If you believe that your mix at -7 LUFS will sound significantly better than at -14 LUFS, despite the level matching that streaming sites implement, this video is for you.
I mastered my mix of Krave Amiko's "Oh So Badly" at -14, -10, and -7 LUFS, and then I cut them all together for you to hear for yourself just how much of an advantage (or disadvantage) loudness offers you.
Came here from Dan Worrall’s post. As a Sunday church broadcast engineer, this example confirms that it’s fine to squash my live mix into a fuzzy caterpillar for people listening on phones and TVs in regular life environments, and then adjust my mastering for single song clips that are edited for later uploading that people will watch/hear with more focus.
I think you have nailed it with this demonstration. Exciting music has dynamic range and contrast. Subtlety and nuance are more appealing to me than flattened one dimensionality.
-12 to -10 seems to be a nice target often.
The song is great. Thanks for the demonstration.
I never look at the meter when doing stuff. But i almost always end up at -11 lufs for a pop kind of master. For me it’s just the right balance between dynamic and listenability on various system. I am an avid radio listener and my car is noisy. The channel i most want to listen to plays trad/folk/classical/jazz etc that has lots of dynamics. Unlistenable in the car. Beautiful in the studio. For me that matters a lot.
Also i thought your -10 sounded the best because it brought up som reverb tails and just gave it a lusher feeling.
Great work btw. Both from you and the artist. Amazing song!!
Yes, the -10 LUFS is the final mix/master, so it has the clear advantage since the balances have been adjusted for that loudness.
@@MixermanPublishes Also, it is usually easier to mix into a little bit of limiting since less compression is needed, for example, on drums.
I don’t advise mixing into a limiter. A great mix is great without the limiter. It’s exhausting to mix through a limiter. And compressors can really help a mix pop, not so with a brickwall limiter.
Mixing through a 2-bus compressor makes sense. Mixing through a limiter is inadvisable. Make your mix, Derive your loudness with your brickwall limiter. Adjust balances and EQ to accommodate the limiter. Check your mix without the limiter. Should be good.
You want your mix great regardless of the limiter. I’ve already demonstrated that the limiter offer no value added to the mix.
@@MixermanPublishes Hmm. Alright i'll try to do a couple of mixes without limiting. I'll leave it with a -0.1 threshold in case something goes wrong to not blow my eardrums & speakers.
Thank you.
@@TransistorLSD i usually mix WITH the limiter in place, but never push into it. I feel drums for example makes the mixbus comp misbehave if i don’t take care of these things upstream. I often use light limiting on the drumbus.
Great Song & great mix btw.
I was listening on a studio monitor setup and my perception of depth and width was substantially better with -14 and -10. But as you mentioned, with -14, level difference between verse and the chorus was a bit too much to my ears. So my personal choice would be -10. The mix sounds amazing btw.
Yeah, I prefer the -10LUFS master. But that’s also my final mix, which means my balance decisions are fully integrated into that version, since I master the record right in my mix session.
Thank you for your kind words.
I always make it as loud as i can without compromising the sound quality
my main conclusion about dynamics - it's not only about the level. there's a lot of harmonics tonal dynamics we can use.
there's a way to express dynamics between different parts without making it too quiet - is to use another mastering chain settings in different parts or simply make gain automation at chorus sections before squashing it. there's a lot of density when we pushing it a bit (like 1-2 dB of gain before limiting). i found it useful in these cases, because we have the same level, but more pumping and present sound that feels bigger and louder. however, drums might be buried afterwards, so anyone who might wanna try this technique be careful
I hear a tremendous difference in the openness and dynamic range. To me, -14 LUFs sounds bigger, fuller, and more interesting. Minus 10 seems to have a tighter bass presence, perhaps because transients are not so much higher than it. -7 sounds crushed, diminished, and a little irritating. I would not give a second listen if the -7 version were the first widely released example of this band that I heard. Great band and mix, by the way. I love those vocals.
Like anything in music I think it totally depends on the context of the track. This is a pretty stripped back, smooth production and it sounds great at -10 but an EDM track made to dance to in a club can be pushed harder.
I’ll make one to a dance track too coming soon. It’s not going to change the results. Same with a hard track. Then someone will name another genre. Loudness does not add value to any mix in any genre. It just makes it louder and reduces the dynamic range across the track.
This track can be pushed stupidly loud too. It’s fine to make a value judgment that it doesn’t suit the track, but many people, if not most, are applying loudness regardless of that kind of judgment. MEs routinely make tracks as loud as possible regardless of how it negatively affects the track, because they don’t want to have to run it twice. In other words, many, many MEs, are protecting their time over your mix.
Thank you. You’re absolutely right. And I mean…well, first of all, -14 was clearly the best for my opinion. And I don’t mean sonics, because the music is more of a feeling. Sonically they were all, you know, there. But with louder mixes, and especially -14 vs. -7 you loose a lot of the feel of the music itself when it was mixed louder. And for me the music is always “the feel” - thing. You need to have the movement, and in that -14 mix you have it. At least that’s my opinion. Great video!
For my ears -14 is slightly too dynamic, i prefer the -10 one. But that's just taste. -7 is definitely overcompressed & distorted.
Love this really good representation of the issues in loudness. Now you ask a question, is loudness up to me? If its to encourage people to listen, no. The problem is its the listeners with the bluetooth speaker in the corner that are the issue. You need poeple to hear the catch part of the track and to connect. Its crap, we want all the listeners to become unwilling audiophiles without realising. However they don't get it. Also, can we let goa bit for volume, I mean, can we accept thats whats needed to throw the song into the arena? Also (this is not so much me) will the next gen listener actually prefer it becuase they are used to the sound?
I think finding overall loudness is quite source dependent. -12 to -10 seems appropriate for song like this. EDM and death metal might find themselves in the -7 (or louder) area. Ultimately we should be making our decisions based on what sounds best, and not some arbitrary loudness target. The difference is how the tracks are treated in the mix though. Most songs will sound bad with a single limiter doing a lot of GR.
Clipping transient information can be quite transparent, saturating to reduce peaks, psychoacoustic treatment of low end to add harmonics above the fundamental, but sounds like sub info, parallel compression, sidechaining elements for space in a dense mix etc all contribute to a tighter dynamic range and means less work for a limiter at the end
So, I could do this same thing with a death metal track and the results will be the same. If I can cut between sections without hearing a truly audible difference from one level matched loudness to the next, then there is no value added to being louder. If the super loud section comes up, and it doesn't change markedly in tone, like, if you don't go, wow that's way better, then how can anyone argue it's better louder?
Incidentally, I'm not using a single limiter to derive my loudness. And I could get that track up to -7 LUFS without that distortion, I'd just have to cut low end to get there, and that's the compromise that these death metal records need to make. They sound all ticky tack. Like, if the death metal and hard rockers made their records a little less loud, they could have more low end, and those records would generally have more balls as a result.
But you do you. If you're convinced that louder is better, by all means. I've pretty much proven it doesn't matter, so I'm not going to now insist it does matter. Make it too loud, and it will have no bearing on the success, negatively or positively. Make it dynamic and it will have no bearing on the success, negatively or positively. That would be the definition of not mattering.
This demonstration is for people who are afraid to make their record dynamic, because they read all sorts of passionate people (who have never had a hit record) insisting otherwise.
@@MixermanPublishes I personally find most of my songs end up around-10. It’s pretty clean, loud, and dynamic. I was only trying to say that if I get a song and they specifically request LOUD then my whole approach to mixing it is different vs trying to get it loud via limiter
@@MixermanPublishesthe problem is that not everything everywhere is level matched. Let's talk about EDM market for example. When sending a demo, tired A&R's ears will subconsciously prefer a louder EDM master when quickly scanning through tracks and it will seem to be "fuller" or "more fat and powerful".
Same with DJs buying tracks on beatport. Or listeners who still prefer Extended mp3. SoundCloud? I think still not level matched. Or even DJs playing live - often their gain corrections are not ideal and a louder track will stand out in a live set. Etc etc etc... It's not just Spotify and level matched streaming, we also have to deal with listeners and their biased choices.
@@piotrbukowski9566 People can make their record as loud as they like for whatever reasons that they deem important. The only thing that I'm demonstrating here is that there is no actual value added to making your track loud, which I see people claiming all the time. Louder doesn't make something sound fuller, fatter, or more powerful, if it did, then when you cut between these level matched versions, you'd be able to hear it sound fuller, fatter, or more powerful when it goes to -7LUFS from the -14 LUFS, which it clearly doesn't.
The argument that it's genre dependent makes no sense. I can do this on any track in any genre, and you won't hear anything get fuller, fatter, or more powerful. I'll do it on an EDM track next. And then someone will say, well it's different for metal. And I'll do it to a metal track, and the results are going to be exactly the same on any mix that already has good balances.
It's not the loudness that makes a mix pop. It's the mix.
@@MixermanPublishesthe actual art is to make it sound nearly the same, even if it's way less dynamic. The worst solution is just slapping a limiter on master and calling it a day, however smart use of clipping, saturation, a good mix balance, good sound selection, other psychoacoustic tricks can allow us to push the master for those cases where louder=better for the average listener who doesn't have the sound normalized, and still not destroy the track.
Now if we could just get bands that come in to my studio to understand this, that’d be great…….
Would be great to see how u actually practically approach mastering within in the mix session. I do it as well but would love to see how u do it
Noted!
i agree that i dont want the master to be squashed- but my bands album is way too quiet lots of people have complained that its so much softer than everything (were called dream home theater- not a reference lol) despite me feeling like im squashing it with the limiter a bit specifically the snare- i dont know i guess the streaming services evening it out didnt do it enough- any advice??
Post a link to one of your records that people complain is too quiet, and I’ll see if I can explain what’s going on.
One issue i've encountered is that the conventional wisdom of 'master to -14LUFS bc the streaming services will even out everything' is pretty much BS. Some do, but it's not nearly as universal as we've been led to believe. Thus, believing that the loudness wars are as dead and buried as cds are - is naive. Like it or not, the major players are still delivering big loud mixes that hit -8, -7, even -5 LUFS. I made the mistake of leaving some extra loudness on the table a few years back, thinking that it would sound better at -12 LUFS when streamed online. I was wrong. My next record I'm going all in with the loudness. It's the world we live in.
@@DanCummins yeah, the loudness wars aren’t dead. But if you want your mix super loud, that starts with how you mix it. If I wanted this record super loud, then I should make it less dynamic with the mix first. I currently have a 2dB bump (or more) in level from the verse to the chorus. If I were to adjust the dynamics at the mix itself, I wouldn’t have to limit so hard to get to -7LUFS, and I wouldn’t introduce that distortion. In fact, I think I’ll demonstrate that next.
I can always hear the clipper everytime iv tried it. I can always the distortion
If it’s your own mix you really don’t need a clipper, anyway. You can adjust your balances to work with the limiter.
Yeah -14 felt too dynamic, -7 just felt squashed, could work for some genres, but not if you wanna feel any impact. -10 felt like a sweet spot. Which is great since that’s what i master most of my mixes at when a client can’t afford a proper mastering engineer😂.
Imho the -7 lufs version transition to the chorus sounded flat and boring compared to the other one. Sweet song btw.
I agree. But this isn't meant to be a comparison of which is best. This is to point out that there isn't nearly the difference that people think there is once it's level matched. What happens with louder integrated LUFS is the track overall becomes less dynamic. The track doesn't miraculously get better at any given moment, which many people believe. Once level matched, the switches are relatively invisible. other than some mild distortion on the -7 LUFS one.
@@MixermanPublishes agreed
So mix as if it's going to be -7 then. Problem solved 😂
i / We know since 2003 that stupid loudness is complete NONSENSE 🙂and i work since 2003 against it...
You pointed out the Verse / Chorus section... I tell you that your -7 section is harmless against the reality. Cause in reality, especially in the " TOP NOTCH AREA" of the Biz, it is a reverse Dynamic situation !
What ?
Yes, the Verse is louder than the Chorus ! You can hear so often the Comp / Limiter section of the Mastering Stage... You can hear that the Chorus sucked away... the main vocals sucked away ( level and frequency wise ).
When i played in 2003, a High Dynamik Song ( mastered with the new POV ), to the producer of the mix... he was shocked, how powerful a master can sound...
And he said "The world is not yet ready for this dynamics"... This was 2003...
On Radio, less LUFS means more power... On Streaming Platforms... less Loudness means more Power...
So i can not really understand, why top notch productions, are still stupid loud...
The only reason for me is, to sell more Vinyls, for expensive money. Cause the Vinyl LUFS Range is between -12 and -18 LUFS. So Music is only a product for the "dumb" consumers, which are manipulated by the marketing of the labels...
I really hope, that the not top notch players in the game are strong enough, to bring back good music into trhe scene...
What you’re calling a reverse dynamic I’ve always called inverted. I could never wrap my head around that presentation.
You guys Crack me up. Fk Lufs. Go to Digital Zero and a good mix with beef in the dense part with a small crest factor. Song done. Oh and ride your mastering thresholds/gains at the different sections either by knob if mastering in analog or automate in software.
preach, loudness means shit if your LRA is 0.6
@@scarfypedia LRA ? WTF is that?
It sounds like shit from my phone anyway
Damn! I forgot to check the mix in the phone modeler first.
@@MixermanPublishes cheers for the sub, dude :D Keep up the good LUFs, i mean...work. Keep up the good work.
Love your videos dude.
@@MixermanPublishes oh staaaawp. I bet you say that to all the guys 😊
I sent you a note via your website. Did you get it?