Humility is another key to knowledge. Look at all the additional knowledge gleaned and shared when someone makes, owns and corrects a mistake. Way to go Jeff! Congrats on the 100K btw. ;)
Congratz on 100k subs. Thanks for the update on your testing, always great to see you telling us what you find even if its an error in your testing. That is why I'm sure that 100k is just the start and 200k will come a lot faster now that more people are watching and talking about your testing...
Making mistakes is the best way to learn! Good for you for uncovering what was really going on. I think I actually mentioned turning off conntrack in a comment to that video. I think the easiest way to learn linux networking is just to turn stuff off and on and watch what happens.
Love your honesty and your bloopers. Acknowledging your mistakes and researching them, is the best possible way to grow in knowledge and humanity. Keep it going!
A world with a real culture of failure would bring people so much forward - thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge! A viewer and subscriber from Germany
Jeff, Marvell Marvell is wrong. Intel AX200 max PHY rate is 2400Mbps because it's the first two chains mass-market chipset that could do 2x2 MIMO on 160MHz channel. Before AX200 2 chain chipsets were capable of either 2x2 80MHz or 1x1 160MHz, i.e 1200Mbps max PHY rate. I think you have to set 160MHz channel on your router in order to push AX200 to its limits. In ideal RF conditions you might get ~70% UDP throughput from max PHY rate. However, with MCS11 it's a bit harder, but I guess you should do 1.3-1.4Mbps w/o problems. However, the bottleneck might be elsewhere of course.
D'oh, now you have me questioning my own results again :D I didn't think to go into the router settings and check how everything's configured. I should probably set things back up and use iwconfig to get the stats too-I believe I was seeing it using 160MHz when I had checked, but I don't think I copied out the info.
@@JeffGeerling We would like to see this test with an other AX200 card on the ap side too, because of the compatibility, and AX210 test too. During the tests please check the CPU, because maybe this would be the weakest chain. Thank you! If you are done with the tests, please drop me a line because I would like to buy the complete installed iso from you, thanks!
@@JeffGeerling That might be a regdomain or channel issue. Check "iw reg get" if the channel you're using is allowed 160 MHz bandwidth in your region. I totally agree with Dmitri, I've seen 1470 MBit/s of real-world TCP performance via AX200 chips. Your first results were most likely correct.
Great stuff and it is always respectable to admit a mistake :) So realistically to know the maximum speed you could get we need a few different factors: However unrealistic at this time due to the lack of channels but if you could run 160 MHz on your network and having a 2x2:2 receiver you could get an MCS of 11 at 2 spatial streams and at 800ns GI that means a PHY speed of 2402Mbps. However that has a coding rate of 5/6 which means 1/6th of that is not new data but rather for error correction, which leaves 2001 Mbps. Then you also need to take into account the airtime you can use on a channel or in this case a group of channels which absolutely maxes out at about 80%. So even if you have a crystal clear channel and only your PI and the access point contending for airtime you would absolutely max out at 1600 Mbps. If you are in a busier area then 40 MHz channels would be more realistic which brings your max speed down to : 382 Mbps if you only connect one device.
For anyone who's wondering about where to find the wpa_supplicant/hostapd source, here's a link: w1.fi/cgit I also have a somewhat outdated copy of it on my GitLab account, for easier browsing gitlab.com/NoahAndrews/hostapd-mirror
Keep up the great work, Jeff. You’re still one of the few I watch all the ads for. Yes, I know you’d get even more if I got UA-cam Premiun or, better yet, just did the Patreon thing. But baby steps.
Heh... I finally paid for UA-cam Premium after sitting through the ads for years. I'm trying to get to a point where I can at least cut out the mid-roll ads because I kinda hate them myself, but I made the decision this year to go full-time on my own (I'm only doing a few hours of consulting work per week starting next week, in fact!), and financially I can't yet pull the plug on that revenue. Soon, though. Very soon!
@@JeffGeerling I’ve heard that UA-cam will demonetize videos where the creator has encouraged viewers to watch the ads so they get paid. But that is purely anecdotal information. But I can’t imagine UA-cam having any issues with encouraging viewers to go Premium because “it helps out everybody”. Maybe that’s the best way to increase your revenue. Since you get paid for every minute that a Premium viewer watches. Significantly more than ad revenue as I understand it. Take care of yourself, man. I really do appreciate all the work you put into your videos. Not sure this is up your alley, interest wise. But I’m looking for somebody to show how to build an SBC (raspberry would work, but NUC would be better), install Home Assistant and put the whole thing together with a solid integrated battery backup. Without the integrated UPS (integrated such that the UPS can trigger a graceful shutdown before the battery runs out) HA can have issues. As I understand it, forced shutdowns cause the HA database to get corrupted. Hardly uncommon for a database to get corrupted in case of a forced shutdown, though. Having been a data protection and disaster recovery guy for so long, I have UPS backup all over my house. But I’ve gotten lazy and haven’t integrated any of them to do automated shutdown yet.
faced the same routing confusion a few weeks ago in our lab. I think this came with kernel 5 versions and is a bit unexpected and not much documented I feel like.
Yeah it seems the only way to figure out this behavior is to run into it, then start scouring forums and mailing lists until you hit the right posts and the light bulb goes off :)
true, true. normally you would not have two interfaces with ips from the same subnet. that does not make much sense for a network guy but may happen for the average user on the average home network. how it behaves when done so is however also not expected by a network guy.
@@balien123 not true - it was common pre 10G days to bond them together on one address to get more throughput to a server or in a LAG between switches ect...
Does it count if you've been burned enough times that you are now a charred reflection of your former self? I still need to test that card you sent me!
I'd argue that you were burninated by the Linux stack, lol. That was a segue to this: Awesome shirt! My youngest kiddo has been getting into drawing lately and it's in my plans to show her some HSR stuff, especially the Trogdor episode :D
Great explanation of your research covering were you found the info. Yap, that was an old mantra we used to say, "Luke, read the source" . Engineers, put some interesting comments in there.
Great video as always. I feel you mirror a lot of my discovery processes, even if your expertise is greater than mine is. Oh lord, you're not kidding on the wpa_supplicant thing: scant documentation, broken links, it was very frustrating! And in the end? It turned out MY problem was not even that: it was my HDMI signal was interrupting my wifi on my pi! Talk about obscure. I posted on reddit in r/raspberrypi about my experience. Under "[Solved] Raspberry Pi 400 desktop can't connect to wireless, wlan0 does not get ipv4 or only get ipv6 via DHCP," if anyone reading this is curious.
@@JeffGeerling You don't understand Jeff, you only started recompiling the kernel a few months ago - now you're digging through source code of wpa_supplicant, and figuring it all out. That kind of mental will power is so incredibly rare. If everyone had it, imagine how much better the world would be. I mean, most channels would have deleted Moto Moto's comment on site for "trolling". I hope your channel continues for a very long time, and one day you have a whole lab and a team of people working with you. Not for your sake, for theirs, as you'd be an inspiration. I'm a PhD researcher (Genomics), and damn, if only half the people here were as dedicated to finding the truth and disseminating it... let alone good at it!
@@cannaroe1213 The only thing useful I learned in my college years is how to learn. Because pretty much everything else (besides some of the things I learned in oceanography, which most people hated but for some reason I loved) has exited my brain at this point. Learning is about the only thing that keeps us young! And since I have three kids (and one on the way), they keep me sharp too. What fun would it be if I always had to answer with 'I don't know' :D
You and many others seem to miss that each interface and link has a weight or metric attach to them and any path for data anyways go to the path with lowest weight. If you need to push data thru a NIC then you have to make sure that NIC has lower weight/metric then all others. So you Wired NIC needs disconnected or weight/metric often = 50 or even more to push data thru WiFi. Search TCP/IP Link weights Example: In windows, manual settings are buried in "Advanced TCP/IP Setting" for each NIC but Windows and some others automatically set link metric too. Windows Wired Links will get 1 but WiFi NIC are often much higher. Search MS: An explanation of the Automatic Metric feature for IPv4 routes
Learned a few things today. Thanks! With 160mhz 2x2 I’ve definitely done a solid gigabit connection during file transfers - but the router doesn’t have anything more than a gigabit port.
Heh, that's how the router manufacturers get you-now you're pining for a router with a 2.5 or 10G port. Then you have to upgrade your switch(es). Then your cabling. It's like 4K TV-you can't just upgrade one device, gotta upgrade all the things!
Agree. Lying is an act of deception. Unknowingly reporting a incorrect result is an error, not a lie. However, putting the word "Lie" in the title is better for getting the clicks. :^P In any case, kudos to Jeff for the public correction.
I've got the same Microtik router. I've stood it next to a computer 12V fan that's plugged into a USB outlet. At 5V, the fan makes no noise, but it keeps the router cool.
@@JeffGeerling I was fixing a friend’s laptop once which was unusable thanks to OEM (HP?) bloatware. I had to open his kitchen refrigerator and use its top shelf as a standing desk while performing the shitectomy. =‑)
Jeff, enjoying your videos. I have a Coral M.2 Accelerator with the A+E key. I'm looking forward to your video as to what PCI-E adapter to use with a PC.
I recently emailed Coral.ai about running the EdgeTPU directly as a PCIe card on the CM4 and also about the amount of bandwidth the device needs (e.g. could I run one on each USB3 port on the Pi). This is what they had to say: "The CM4 does not have hardware support for MSI-X interrupts, so it does not work. There is an on-going effort to mitigate this with a kernel driver, so it may be possible in the near future to connect a single edge TPU to the CM4. Each edge TPU will consume an entire x1 PCIe lane. If you multiplexed multiple edge TPUs onto one lane they would not work efficiently. If you were to take a x8 or x16 PCIe slot and integrate a PCIe switch with 8 or 16 lanes, you could have 8 or 16 full-performance edge TPUs on your system." I thought that might help you in your testing.
Yes, in fact I was checking out that MSI-X support thread on the Pi Forums recently, and it looks like there's a _chance_ it can be made to work. We shall see! I'm actually dealing with MSI-X support issues separately for another as-yet-unnamed device :O
802.11 is the worst part of the Linux kernel and it has been for decades. I have spent way too many hours pulling hair out over it xD - Nice to see somebody venturing into it!
I appreciate these types of videos. I don’t know enough to do this type of thing. I should learn coding. Anyway, it’s interesting to listen to even if I only understand 20% of it. It’s strangely relaxing.
The mention of 10-gigabit ethernet gave me a few interesting ideas of things to try: * A Firewire 400 or 800 host adapter. Some are PCI devices behind a PCIe bridge, on the same chip. Perhaps some are native PCIe? * A Thunderbolt host card (likely Titan Ridge), and some sort of non-GPU Thunderbolt device. This can require some kernel arguments even on x86, as this person describes: egpu.io/forums/postid/74981/ * AHCI M.2 SSD (a PCIe device, not the same as a SATA M.2 device) . Might be basically the same as an ordinary AHCI SATA controller, though.
Check out pipci.jeffgeerling.com - I'm already testing a couple of those kinds of devices, though I haven't picked up any Firewire adapters. It would be interesting to try one out. I don't think I'd have much luck with Thunderbolt though, that doesn't seem well supported on the ARM PCIE controller on the Broadcom chip.
Ditto! It will be interesting to see if it will even work at all-support for some of the extensions it requires were only just recently added to the Pi OS kernel.
Damm it. That is why my Raspberry pi 4 is giving me same benchmarks on wlan interface and eth interface coz they are on same network!! due to some routing thing in linux kernel. Personally i tried it and can't understand the difference coz how both gigabit ethernet and wifi provide same speed. Now i got it. Thanks a lot jeff.
Heh, yeah, I kept getting that kind of result and was like "wow, everything is so consistent!" But after a while and reading up on all these other results people were getting, I finally had that light bulb moment.
Could you please explain, i test speed of my localhost using iperf3 and it shows 5.05Gpbs😳, isnt that insane. Any word from you will be helpful..Thanks
@@rishabhtomar7071 You're essentially testing the speed of the Linux kernel's networking stack in that case-how fast it can route packets internally. I just ran that test on my Mac and I'm getting 22 Gbps. iperf3 over localhost doesn't hit your network adapters at all, so it should be very fast.
Informative video. Makes me want to lean more about how networks work. :) I guess lied makes a good headline but determining if something is a lie has a distant relationship with if it is the truth. :D The truth can be a lie if you meant to deceive someone an vice-versa.
I don't think it's that it picked eth0 because it's faster, but because it was the one configured for the default route, probably because it was the first interface configured. Binding to an IP only binds for incomming traffic, as you found out. Outgoing traffic always goes out the configured default route interface, even if it came in another interface. It's a bit weird.
Yeah; thinking back on my 10G testing, I think you're right. I remembered seeing results of 933 Mbps with the ASUS adapter plugged into my Mac through the 10G MikroTik router, and not seeing the lights on the 10G card flashing at all during the test. I disabled the gigabit interface and then got the 3+ Gbps results.
Hi sir, Does raspberry pi CM4 support RTL8822CE (mini pcie interface)? If Pi OS kernel deesn’t support RTL8822CE by default, we should only enable it in linux kernel, then it will work, right? (p.s. in ubuntu linux kernel, it does support RTL8822CE. driver/net/wireless/realtek/rtw88 is the driver to support RTL8822CE) Thanks.
Maybe so... I might've lied about lying! Here's a follow-up issue to follow: github.com/geerlingguy/raspberry-pi-pcie-devices/issues/56 I Might have to make this a three-part series...
Little out of my depth with an idea for an RPi project- I’d like to make a WiFi repeater / AP that connects to my buildings wireless and then shares that connection over Ethernet (to something like a 4-port switch that I have other devices plugged into) Is that completely ridiculous?
That’s not in the least bit ridiculous. It should work and would be a great learning project. If you just want the result without the project, there are portable or travel routers which include Ethernet-Wi-Fi bridging for as little as $25.
So my desktop computer is wired to my router and I have WiFi turned off. Should I turn WiFi on (same network) to optimize my connection? Probably not worth it since it would only help with local traffic which is minimal, and my ISP speed is much slower.
But since .11ac we don't count MCSes through all spatial streams, both 1x1 and 2x2 have the same MCS11, but second is two times faster than first. Check out mcsindex.com. Does your AP support 160 MHz channel width?
Hello Jeff... In all your Pi 4 wifi tests have you seen issues with WiFi completely dying and requiring a reboot? I have researched, tested and traced the issue and haven't come up with much. I have noted I have not seen the issue when booting with CLI only. Which leads me to believe there are other interactions from a desktop application. Thanks for all your in depth videos.. Your production effort is quite good and well noted
Hmm... I haven't noticed it using 64-bit Pi OS Lite. Though I do notice that when I boot into regular 32-bit Pi OS in the GUI, the first minute or two, the WiFi connection does seem to drop out a few times, but eventually it's stable and I can use the connection reliably.
AX200 can do 2402mbps... because it's a 2x2 chip (and 2 antenna's send/receive) On 5ghz, with 160mhz channel: 1x1 = 1201mbps 2x2 = 2402mbps 4x4 = 4804mbps 8x8 = 9608mbps Only 2x2 pcie exists (AX USB adapters are not even a thing yet), smartphones, are usually 1x1 There's a couple of 4x4 routers, and only 1 8x8 router so far (Asus RT-AX89X) , but as you can see, that's useless pretty much. No 4x4+ clients exist... And the routers supporting that are still 1gbps LAN too.. So you'd need multiple endpoints to really use all that bandwith. Ok ok, the AX89X has a 10gbit WAN, but tell me... Which ISP gives you that?
Heh... I wish I could get faster Internet from the ISP, but anyways... I will be doing more testing to see how much more speed I can get out of the AX200: github.com/geerlingguy/raspberry-pi-pcie-devices/issues/56
If you want the best general purpose computer Pi, the Pi 400. If you want a fast, easy to tinker-with Pi, the Pi 4 model B. If you want a low-energy, slower, but super tiny Pi to integrate into tiny projects or build little remote camera-based projects, the Zero W. And if you want to build your own hardware board to make it do amazing new things, the CM4.
I think it's kind of in a grey area. I was feeling 'too impressed' with the result, but I published anyways, before giving it a full and thorough look. So not a technical lie, but more of a 'I let myself down and it feels like a lie since I didn't do as much as I normally would to make sure the result was accurate'.
You can also "apt-get source wpasupplicant" and get source directly... but if you look at w1.fi/cvs.html and actually git clone the tree linked there, it looks to be up to date as of a month ago. (Even if it doesn't have a web interface, you can just "git clone" ... and it looks like it even has tags for specific version numbers.) (Yeah, you probably did instead care about how your distro is driving it, this is just if you actually want to dig further...)
Well it's an ASUS card, but yes, technically it uses the Aquantia chipset (though Aquantia was purchased Marvell, ha!)-so it's similar to the EDUP card in that the underlying chipset has little to do with the manufacturer who packages it together.
The only way to know for sure is to benchmark for your own network-one thing I've found through all of this is that with WiFi, numbers are _all over the place_ compared to the consistency I get with Ethernet. So many things factor in (besides just the hardware and drivers)!
Marvel, marvel is wrong. 1200Mbps max phy at 2x2 80mhz wide channel/s lab setting then count for overhead, at 160 MHz wide channels, lab setting, max phy 2400Mbps then count for overhead, signal strength and quality on clean clear dfs channels. My tests at home with asus ax router, and intel ax 201 card, 2000-2400Mbps phy rate then overhead, with using my routers wan port to internet, I was seeing 1.1-1.3Gbps or 1300Mbps download speeds at a distance of 35 feet from router with some walls and furniture in between. I was thinking then pc and or slot the wireless card is plugged into is the bottleneck besides signal and channel quality. And when pc idles and run tests, WiFi card and pc bottle necked. When pc set to high performance, WiFi card maxed out to best speeds due to signal and channel quality… Getting 1.3Gbps over WiFi is an achievement for my home setup and tests.. ax wireless does work under the right environmental setup and with the correct hardware.
regarding making your own wireless router with debian 'slax' www.slax.org/customize.php plus cheap dual 2.5Gbit/s ethernet card as your fixed base rather than buy an over priced under powered ac/ax retail router, i looked for a simple step by step as the guide that broke it down well , it needs a bit of updating for simple current 'slax' but it has a lot of good plain English info as regards ac medium.com/@renaudcerrato/how-to-build-your-own-wireless-router-from-scratch-part-3-d54eecce157f btw isnt your card so called wifi6e as in you get an extra set of upper 5.9 channel space and wider bonding qam space, the question is it a case of 'ether or' ,or 'and' sets, as in choose one or use them all at the same time. $ iw list $ iw reg get
1200Mbps is data rate. Not throughput. Wi-Fi is half duplex and a lot of the packets are needed from management and organisation of who gets to talk when. You’ll never get 1200Mbps - this is why APs never need more than 1Gbps uplink. Not yet anyway! Maybe with Wi-Fi 6E with much larger channel widths.
@@JeffGeerling lots of enterprise APs have them. Doesn’t mean they’ll get to use it. It’s good for marketing to say you’ve got X or Z - much like saying that an AP is 1300Mbps (it’s true, for data rate but customers think that means they’ll get 1300Mbps data rate). There’s so much overhead with wireless transmission you’ll never get near it.
_Nobody_ expects Linux's kernel networking stack! Grats on 100K!
Humility is another key to knowledge. Look at all the additional knowledge gleaned and shared when someone makes, owns and corrects a mistake. Way to go Jeff! Congrats on the 100K btw. ;)
Owning your mistake made me a subscriber. Great channel by the way!
Spoiler Alert!!! Part 3 Coming Soon: I lied the lie... WiFi 6 can beat Ethernet, just make sure to enable 160 Mhz bandwidth. Lol
Can I hire you to write my titles? 🤣
Congratz on 100k subs. Thanks for the update on your testing, always great to see you telling us what you find even if its an error in your testing. That is why I'm sure that 100k is just the start and 200k will come a lot faster now that more people are watching and talking about your testing...
Making mistakes is the best way to learn! Good for you for uncovering what was really going on. I think I actually mentioned turning off conntrack in a comment to that video. I think the easiest way to learn linux networking is just to turn stuff off and on and watch what happens.
You forgot to say that "no red shirt Jeffs where hurt making this video". I'm worried
Beware 10 Gbps networking gear!
So you’re saying it’s... “blazing” fast?
@@0xB3F4LL and effen hot
@@0xB3F4LL Red Shirt Jeff approves of this slogan.
Looks like RSJ was in need of some ointment.
Your find the difference meme got me. I appreciate your humor and thoroughness!
Love your honesty and your bloopers.
Acknowledging your mistakes and researching them, is the best possible way to grow in knowledge and humanity.
Keep it going!
A world with a real culture of failure would bring people so much forward - thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge!
A viewer and subscriber from Germany
Jeff, Marvell Marvell is wrong. Intel AX200 max PHY rate is 2400Mbps because it's the first two chains mass-market chipset that could do 2x2 MIMO on 160MHz channel. Before AX200 2 chain chipsets were capable of either 2x2 80MHz or 1x1 160MHz, i.e 1200Mbps max PHY rate. I think you have to set 160MHz channel on your router in order to push AX200 to its limits. In ideal RF conditions you might get ~70% UDP throughput from max PHY rate. However, with MCS11 it's a bit harder, but I guess you should do 1.3-1.4Mbps w/o problems. However, the bottleneck might be elsewhere of course.
D'oh, now you have me questioning my own results again :D
I didn't think to go into the router settings and check how everything's configured. I should probably set things back up and use iwconfig to get the stats too-I believe I was seeing it using 160MHz when I had checked, but I don't think I copied out the info.
Just did some more digging with `iw dev wlan1 info` and yeah... it's only using 80 MHz :-/
I have 160 MHz enabled in my router settings though. Drat!
@@JeffGeerling We would like to see this test with an other AX200 card on the ap side too, because of the compatibility, and AX210 test too. During the tests please check the CPU, because maybe this would be the weakest chain. Thank you! If you are done with the tests, please drop me a line because I would like to buy the complete installed iso from you, thanks!
@@JeffGeerling That might be a regdomain or channel issue.
Check "iw reg get" if the channel you're using is allowed 160 MHz bandwidth in your region.
I totally agree with Dmitri, I've seen 1470 MBit/s of real-world TCP performance via AX200 chips. Your first results were most likely correct.
@@Manawyrm 160 MHz is allowed, according to reg get.
Great stuff and it is always respectable to admit a mistake :) So realistically to know the maximum speed you could get we need a few different factors:
However unrealistic at this time due to the lack of channels but if you could run 160 MHz on your network and having a 2x2:2 receiver you could get an MCS of 11 at 2 spatial streams and at 800ns GI that means a PHY speed of 2402Mbps. However that has a coding rate of 5/6 which means 1/6th of that is not new data but rather for error correction, which leaves 2001 Mbps.
Then you also need to take into account the airtime you can use on a channel or in this case a group of channels which absolutely maxes out at about 80%. So even if you have a crystal clear channel and only your PI and the access point contending for airtime you would absolutely max out at 1600 Mbps.
If you are in a busier area then 40 MHz channels would be more realistic which brings your max speed down to : 382 Mbps if you only connect one device.
Great video!! Is always great to address mistakes, specially if you teach us all something along the way
For anyone who's wondering about where to find the wpa_supplicant/hostapd source, here's a link: w1.fi/cgit
I also have a somewhat outdated copy of it on my GitLab account, for easier browsing gitlab.com/NoahAndrews/hostapd-mirror
thank you for showing your mistake and explaining it :) gives you even more credibility :D keep up the good work!
Keep up the great work, Jeff. You’re still one of the few I watch all the ads for. Yes, I know you’d get even more if I got UA-cam Premiun or, better yet, just did the Patreon thing. But baby steps.
Heh... I finally paid for UA-cam Premium after sitting through the ads for years.
I'm trying to get to a point where I can at least cut out the mid-roll ads because I kinda hate them myself, but I made the decision this year to go full-time on my own (I'm only doing a few hours of consulting work per week starting next week, in fact!), and financially I can't yet pull the plug on that revenue. Soon, though. Very soon!
@@JeffGeerling I’ve heard that UA-cam will demonetize videos where the creator has encouraged viewers to watch the ads so they get paid. But that is purely anecdotal information.
But I can’t imagine UA-cam having any issues with encouraging viewers to go Premium because “it helps out everybody”. Maybe that’s the best way to increase your revenue. Since you get paid for every minute that a Premium viewer watches. Significantly more than ad revenue as I understand it.
Take care of yourself, man. I really do appreciate all the work you put into your videos.
Not sure this is up your alley, interest wise. But I’m looking for somebody to show how to build an SBC (raspberry would work, but NUC would be better), install Home Assistant and put the whole thing together with a solid integrated battery backup. Without the integrated UPS (integrated such that the UPS can trigger a graceful shutdown before the battery runs out) HA can have issues. As I understand it, forced shutdowns cause the HA database to get corrupted. Hardly uncommon for a database to get corrupted in case of a forced shutdown, though.
Having been a data protection and disaster recovery guy for so long, I have UPS backup all over my house. But I’ve gotten lazy and haven’t integrated any of them to do automated shutdown yet.
faced the same routing confusion a few weeks ago in our lab. I think this came with kernel 5 versions and is a bit unexpected and not much documented I feel like.
Yeah it seems the only way to figure out this behavior is to run into it, then start scouring forums and mailing lists until you hit the right posts and the light bulb goes off :)
Interesting, I def have felt the pain of searching for "obscure" details of the kernel networking stack that probably shouldnt be so obscure...
A network guy would never , ever put two interfaces in the same device in the same network.... and that’s the source of the problem ;)
true, true. normally you would not have two interfaces with ips from the same subnet. that does not make much sense for a network guy but may happen for the average user on the average home network. how it behaves when done so is however also not expected by a network guy.
@@balien123 not true - it was common pre 10G days to bond them together on one address to get more throughput to a server or in a LAG between switches ect...
Burned by the Linux stack again. *Now* you’re a sys dev!
Does it count if you've been burned enough times that you are now a charred reflection of your former self?
I still need to test that card you sent me!
I'd argue that you were burninated by the Linux stack, lol.
That was a segue to this: Awesome shirt! My youngest kiddo has been getting into drawing lately and it's in my plans to show her some HSR stuff, especially the Trogdor episode :D
@@shortnr Be sure to explain the importance of CONSUMMATE V's!
Great explanation of your research covering were you found the info. Yap, that was an old mantra we used to say, "Luke, read the source" . Engineers, put some interesting comments in there.
Glad to help!!! Keep it up with the amazing work!
Great video as always. I feel you mirror a lot of my discovery processes, even if your expertise is greater than mine is. Oh lord, you're not kidding on the wpa_supplicant thing: scant documentation, broken links, it was very frustrating! And in the end? It turned out MY problem was not even that: it was my HDMI signal was interrupting my wifi on my pi! Talk about obscure. I posted on reddit in r/raspberrypi about my experience. Under "[Solved] Raspberry Pi 400 desktop can't connect to wireless, wlan0 does not get ipv4 or only get ipv6 via DHCP," if anyone reading this is curious.
Nice vid, thanks for the clarifications! BTW, the expression is "champing at the bit" not "chomping at the bit"...
Me from 3:50 onwards:
"Nooo...."
"Noooo!!!"
"NOOO!!!!"
If the kernel did this to me, i'd unmount my brain and reinstall art degree.
Working around unexpected things the kernel does is an art in itself... so you could still be stuck inside the kernel :P
@@JeffGeerling You don't understand Jeff, you only started recompiling the kernel a few months ago - now you're digging through source code of wpa_supplicant, and figuring it all out. That kind of mental will power is so incredibly rare. If everyone had it, imagine how much better the world would be. I mean, most channels would have deleted Moto Moto's comment on site for "trolling". I hope your channel continues for a very long time, and one day you have a whole lab and a team of people working with you. Not for your sake, for theirs, as you'd be an inspiration. I'm a PhD researcher (Genomics), and damn, if only half the people here were as dedicated to finding the truth and disseminating it... let alone good at it!
@@cannaroe1213 The only thing useful I learned in my college years is how to learn. Because pretty much everything else (besides some of the things I learned in oceanography, which most people hated but for some reason I loved) has exited my brain at this point.
Learning is about the only thing that keeps us young! And since I have three kids (and one on the way), they keep me sharp too. What fun would it be if I always had to answer with 'I don't know' :D
You and many others seem to miss that each interface and link has a weight or metric attach to them and any path for data anyways go to the path with lowest weight. If you need to push data thru a NIC then you have to make sure that NIC has lower weight/metric then all others. So you Wired NIC needs disconnected or weight/metric often = 50 or even more to push data thru WiFi. Search TCP/IP Link weights
Example: In windows, manual settings are buried in "Advanced TCP/IP Setting" for each NIC but Windows and some others automatically set link metric too. Windows Wired Links will get 1 but WiFi NIC are often much higher. Search MS: An explanation of the Automatic Metric feature for IPv4 routes
It is nice to watch your videos, this is normal that sometimes we fail. Great that you post this video!
Subbed and an extra comment to feed the algorithm.
Learned a few things today. Thanks! With 160mhz 2x2 I’ve definitely done a solid gigabit connection during file transfers - but the router doesn’t have anything more than a gigabit port.
Heh, that's how the router manufacturers get you-now you're pining for a router with a 2.5 or 10G port. Then you have to upgrade your switch(es). Then your cabling. It's like 4K TV-you can't just upgrade one device, gotta upgrade all the things!
Your videos are great, you are great! Please don't stop teaching us.
Good stuff! It great that you share your learnings!
Not knowing you were lying means you didn't lie, you were just mistaken.
Agree. Lying is an act of deception. Unknowingly reporting a incorrect result is an error, not a lie. However, putting the word "Lie" in the title is better for getting the clicks. :^P In any case, kudos to Jeff for the public correction.
For an even better time, try FreeBSD on your pi. *May the source compile for you!*
I greatly appreciate both your integrity and sharing your educational experience with us.
Straight-shooting engenders loyalty.
Most Humble Appreciation for your valued feedback Sir.
I've got the same Microtik router. I've stood it next to a computer 12V fan that's plugged into a USB outlet. At 5V, the fan makes no noise, but it keeps the router cool.
Yeah I'm planning on eventually mounting it in an enclosure with a large fan over a few pieces of passively cooled network gear!
@@JeffGeerling I was fixing a friend’s laptop once which was unusable thanks to OEM (HP?) bloatware. I had to open his kitchen refrigerator and use its top shelf as a standing desk while performing the shitectomy. =‑)
Jeff, enjoying your videos. I have a Coral M.2 Accelerator with the A+E key. I'm looking forward to your video as to what PCI-E adapter to use with a PC.
I recently emailed Coral.ai about running the EdgeTPU directly as a PCIe card on the CM4 and also about the amount of bandwidth the device needs (e.g. could I run one on each USB3 port on the Pi). This is what they had to say:
"The CM4 does not have hardware support for MSI-X interrupts, so it does not work. There is an on-going effort to mitigate this with a kernel driver, so it may be possible in the near future to connect a single edge TPU to the CM4.
Each edge TPU will consume an entire x1 PCIe lane. If you multiplexed multiple edge TPUs onto one lane they would not work efficiently. If you were to take a x8 or x16 PCIe slot and integrate a PCIe switch with 8 or 16 lanes, you could have 8 or 16 full-performance edge TPUs on your system."
I thought that might help you in your testing.
Yes, in fact I was checking out that MSI-X support thread on the Pi Forums recently, and it looks like there's a _chance_ it can be made to work. We shall see!
I'm actually dealing with MSI-X support issues separately for another as-yet-unnamed device :O
802.11 is the worst part of the Linux kernel and it has been for decades. I have spent way too many hours pulling hair out over it xD - Nice to see somebody venturing into it!
It's getting better. Slowly but surely, especially as vendors are devoting some resources to making better drivers.
Owning up to your mistakes gets a respect-upvote
I appreciate these types of videos. I don’t know enough to do this type of thing. I should learn coding. Anyway, it’s interesting to listen to even if I only understand 20% of it. It’s strangely relaxing.
The mention of 10-gigabit ethernet gave me a few interesting ideas of things to try:
* A Firewire 400 or 800 host adapter. Some are PCI devices behind a PCIe bridge, on the same chip. Perhaps some are native PCIe?
* A Thunderbolt host card (likely Titan Ridge), and some sort of non-GPU Thunderbolt device. This can require some kernel arguments even on x86, as this person describes: egpu.io/forums/postid/74981/
* AHCI M.2 SSD (a PCIe device, not the same as a SATA M.2 device)
. Might be basically the same as an ordinary AHCI SATA controller, though.
Check out pipci.jeffgeerling.com - I'm already testing a couple of those kinds of devices, though I haven't picked up any Firewire adapters. It would be interesting to try one out. I don't think I'd have much luck with Thunderbolt though, that doesn't seem well supported on the ARM PCIE controller on the Broadcom chip.
Great Video, very excited on how the TPU will perform :)
Ditto! It will be interesting to see if it will even work at all-support for some of the extensions it requires were only just recently added to the Pi OS kernel.
Damm it. That is why my Raspberry pi 4 is giving me same benchmarks on wlan interface and eth interface coz they are on same network!! due to some routing thing in linux kernel. Personally i tried it and can't understand the difference coz how both gigabit ethernet and wifi provide same speed. Now i got it. Thanks a lot jeff.
Heh, yeah, I kept getting that kind of result and was like "wow, everything is so consistent!" But after a while and reading up on all these other results people were getting, I finally had that light bulb moment.
Could you please explain, i test speed of my localhost using iperf3 and it shows 5.05Gpbs😳, isnt that insane. Any word from you will be helpful..Thanks
@@rishabhtomar7071 You're essentially testing the speed of the Linux kernel's networking stack in that case-how fast it can route packets internally. I just ran that test on my Mac and I'm getting 22 Gbps.
iperf3 over localhost doesn't hit your network adapters at all, so it should be very fast.
Excellent story, and I'm looking forward to the Coral video!!!!!!! (I'm hoping to use one for machine learning)
ax200 supports 160MHz bandwidth, so if you router can set to 160MHz，the maximum theoretical phy rate is 2400Mbps!
Thanks for the correction. That did seem odd to me when watching the old video. I didn't think >1Gbps was actually achievable.
So we all have learned something. And that‘s Great.
Informative video. Makes me want to lean more about how networks work. :)
I guess lied makes a good headline but determining if something is a lie has a distant relationship with if it is the truth. :D The truth can be a lie if you meant to deceive someone an vice-versa.
I don't think it's that it picked eth0 because it's faster, but because it was the one configured for the default route, probably because it was the first interface configured. Binding to an IP only binds for incomming traffic, as you found out. Outgoing traffic always goes out the configured default route interface, even if it came in another interface. It's a bit weird.
Yeah; thinking back on my 10G testing, I think you're right. I remembered seeing results of 933 Mbps with the ASUS adapter plugged into my Mac through the 10G MikroTik router, and not seeing the lights on the 10G card flashing at all during the test. I disabled the gigabit interface and then got the 3+ Gbps results.
Hi sir,
Does raspberry pi CM4 support RTL8822CE (mini pcie interface)?
If Pi OS kernel deesn’t support RTL8822CE by default, we should only enable it in linux kernel, then it will work, right?
(p.s. in ubuntu linux kernel, it does support RTL8822CE.
driver/net/wireless/realtek/rtw88 is the driver to support RTL8822CE)
Thanks.
Hmm. I'm confused. I thought if you used the full 160MHz channel width available on the AX200 then you could get 2400mbps?
Maybe so... I might've lied about lying! Here's a follow-up issue to follow: github.com/geerlingguy/raspberry-pi-pcie-devices/issues/56
I Might have to make this a three-part series...
Little out of my depth with an idea for an RPi project- I’d like to make a WiFi repeater / AP that connects to my buildings wireless and then shares that connection over Ethernet (to something like a 4-port switch that I have other devices plugged into)
Is that completely ridiculous?
That’s not in the least bit ridiculous. It should work and would be a great learning project.
If you just want the result without the project, there are portable or travel routers which include Ethernet-Wi-Fi bridging for as little as $25.
Every day is a learning day. Thanks. Subscribed :)
Well done on making a dedicated video to your mistake, UA-cam algo recommended/directed me here about 1 hour after watching your original video...
Dude, love this video. Lots of respect. We all make mistakes.
Way to man up. Thanks for the update.
So my desktop computer is wired to my router and I have WiFi turned off. Should I turn WiFi on (same network) to optimize my connection? Probably not worth it since it would only help with local traffic which is minimal, and my ISP speed is much slower.
But since .11ac we don't count MCSes through all spatial streams, both 1x1 and 2x2 have the same MCS11, but second is two times faster than first. Check out mcsindex.com. Does your AP support 160 MHz channel width?
Yes it does; I'm going to have to make this a three-parter as I need to retest again! github.com/geerlingguy/raspberry-pi-pcie-devices/issues/56
Nice we got more video from this intresting topic.🙂👍
Good job man , a mistake that is learned from is never a mistake
Hello Jeff...
In all your Pi 4 wifi tests have you seen issues with WiFi completely dying and requiring a reboot?
I have researched, tested and traced the issue and haven't come up with much. I have noted I have not seen the issue when booting with CLI only. Which leads me to believe there are other interactions from a desktop application.
Thanks for all your in depth videos..
Your production effort is quite good and well noted
Hmm... I haven't noticed it using 64-bit Pi OS Lite.
Though I do notice that when I boot into regular 32-bit Pi OS in the GUI, the first minute or two, the WiFi connection does seem to drop out a few times, but eventually it's stable and I can use the connection reliably.
@@JeffGeerling interesting..
Thanks for your reply..
I haven't found any log entries ...
I'll keep digging.
AX200 can do 2402mbps... because it's a 2x2 chip (and 2 antenna's send/receive)
On 5ghz, with 160mhz channel:
1x1 = 1201mbps
2x2 = 2402mbps
4x4 = 4804mbps
8x8 = 9608mbps
Only 2x2 pcie exists (AX USB adapters are not even a thing yet), smartphones, are usually 1x1
There's a couple of 4x4 routers, and only 1 8x8 router so far (Asus RT-AX89X) , but as you can see, that's useless pretty much. No 4x4+ clients exist... And the routers supporting that are still 1gbps LAN too.. So you'd need multiple endpoints to really use all that bandwith.
Ok ok, the AX89X has a 10gbit WAN, but tell me... Which ISP gives you that?
Heh... I wish I could get faster Internet from the ISP, but anyways... I will be doing more testing to see how much more speed I can get out of the AX200: github.com/geerlingguy/raspberry-pi-pcie-devices/issues/56
Thank you so much
Damn, earliest I've ever been.
Very interesting video! Can't wait to see the Google Coral working
Hi Jeff, now with the starting of 2021, what is the best pi (considering factor in everything) to buy right now?
If you want the best general purpose computer Pi, the Pi 400.
If you want a fast, easy to tinker-with Pi, the Pi 4 model B.
If you want a low-energy, slower, but super tiny Pi to integrate into tiny projects or build little remote camera-based projects, the Zero W.
And if you want to build your own hardware board to make it do amazing new things, the CM4.
You cool. Thank you to sharing this knowledge.
Trogdor the Burninator!
He was a dragon man!
Kernel be like yeet dat speed up
Tbh i never experienced non-weird behavior of anything under Linux, but that might be my Personal Problem
are the pcie wifi6-bt5/5.1 card all the same ( in terms of performance )?
Hey, can you try google coral m.2 and pcie for cm4 ? Sounds like a good idea for tpu video.
That's mentioned right at the end of this video :)
I have learned that sometimes Linux too lacks options given it automatically went for wlan1 in your case.
Hello Jeff... do you have some benchmarks for Raspberry with 802.11ac? With my PI 4 model B I can´t reach more than 80Mbps.
In the preceding video (Part 1) Jeff benched 79Mbps.
Can you test FXS/FXO port from digium
ITs oookkaayyyyyy....cheating is a 2020-2021 thing. jp JOKING!!!
respect!
3:38 In my head: 🔔🚩‼️ ALARM OOGAH OOGAH ACHTUNG П3ДЦ!!! 2 INTS 1 NET!!!
Ooh, just saw my name scroll past!
Thanks for sustaining my Pi-addiction 🤪
@@JeffGeerling thanks for saving me countless hours from your ansible galaxy modules I've been using for ages.
Sad news about Roy :(
Shouldn't you say you were wrong, instead of saying you lied? Because you didn't do it intentionally.
I think it's kind of in a grey area. I was feeling 'too impressed' with the result, but I published anyways, before giving it a full and thorough look.
So not a technical lie, but more of a 'I let myself down and it feels like a lie since I didn't do as much as I normally would to make sure the result was accurate'.
@@JeffGeerling Cheers
To be pedantic, you didn’t lie. Lie implies intent. You were just wrong.
I am broke limited income. BUT WOULD U DO CM4 ETHERNET CARD AS A VPN . ALSO TO TIE TO OUTSIDE VPN.... CHECK SPEED TES AND MULTIPLE DEVICES. (5 - 10)
No wonder so many people have issues with WPA_supplicant - if you can't even find the source, who you gonna call to fix it?
You can also "apt-get source wpasupplicant" and get source directly... but if you look at w1.fi/cvs.html and actually git clone the tree linked there, it looks to be up to date as of a month ago. (Even if it doesn't have a web interface, you can just "git clone" ... and it looks like it even has tags for specific version numbers.) (Yeah, you probably did instead care about how your distro is driving it, this is just if you actually want to dig further...)
so do people not understand that it's not a lie if you don't know it isn't true? lies require intent to deceive.
8:51 - me explaining ADHD to anyone
I have a dream - a Raspery pie with M1 Chip performance :P
Dont like apple, but the chip performance is awesome
It's not an ASUS card, it's powered by Aquantia AQC107 chip, so it really is an Aquatia card 10G
Well it's an ASUS card, but yes, technically it uses the Aquantia chipset (though Aquantia was purchased Marvell, ha!)-so it's similar to the EDUP card in that the underlying chipset has little to do with the manufacturer who packages it together.
i was wondering, i have wifi 6 and while it is a lot faster i was not seeing the numbers ..
The only way to know for sure is to benchmark for your own network-one thing I've found through all of this is that with WiFi, numbers are _all over the place_ compared to the consistency I get with Ethernet. So many things factor in (besides just the hardware and drivers)!
This shit should be another one - red, green, pink...
Hi Jeff, we can screw ourselves too.
Now........THAT OWNERSHIP IS WORT SUBSCRIPTION! Funny situation though!
Marvel, marvel is wrong. 1200Mbps max phy at 2x2 80mhz wide channel/s lab setting then count for overhead, at 160 MHz wide channels, lab setting, max phy 2400Mbps then count for overhead, signal strength and quality on clean clear dfs channels.
My tests at home with asus ax router, and intel ax 201 card, 2000-2400Mbps phy rate then overhead, with using my routers wan port to internet, I was seeing 1.1-1.3Gbps or 1300Mbps download speeds at a distance of 35 feet from router with some walls and furniture in between.
I was thinking then pc and or slot the wireless card is plugged into is the bottleneck besides signal and channel quality. And when pc idles and run tests, WiFi card and pc bottle necked. When pc set to high performance, WiFi card maxed out to best speeds due to signal and channel quality…
Getting 1.3Gbps over WiFi is an achievement for my home setup and tests.. ax wireless does work under the right environmental setup and with the correct hardware.
What did he mean with "morlock" around 7:06?
"more luck" :)
You made a mistake you didn't lie.
Then I lied about lying and not making a mistake, eh? 😂
I don't quite follow your pictures... couldn't you have unplugged the experimental raspberry pi from ethernet, so that it was fully wireless?
Nevermind, didn't spot the part where you manually unplugged it.
I am waiting for 10 gig house networks
regarding making your own wireless router with debian 'slax' www.slax.org/customize.php plus cheap dual 2.5Gbit/s ethernet card as your fixed base rather than buy an over priced under powered ac/ax retail router, i looked for a simple step by step as the guide that broke it down well , it needs a bit of updating for simple current 'slax' but it has a lot of good plain English info as regards ac medium.com/@renaudcerrato/how-to-build-your-own-wireless-router-from-scratch-part-3-d54eecce157f
btw isnt your card so called wifi6e as in you get an extra set of upper 5.9 channel space and wider bonding qam space, the question is it a case of 'ether or' ,or 'and' sets, as in choose one or use them all at the same time.
$ iw list
$ iw reg get
Cat-5 Master race
I'll raise you Cat6a, Cat7, or Cat8 :D
Maybe some DAC or Fiber... will get to that in a video coming soon!
@@JeffGeerling Looking fwd to it
1200Mbps is data rate. Not throughput. Wi-Fi is half duplex and a lot of the packets are needed from management and organisation of who gets to talk when. You’ll never get 1200Mbps - this is why APs never need more than 1Gbps uplink. Not yet anyway! Maybe with Wi-Fi 6E with much larger channel widths.
My new ASUS router has a 2.5G LAN port for the express purpose of swapping bits from wireless to wired at > 1 Gbps :)
@@JeffGeerling lots of enterprise APs have them. Doesn’t mean they’ll get to use it. It’s good for marketing to say you’ve got X or Z - much like saying that an AP is 1300Mbps (it’s true, for data rate but customers think that means they’ll get 1300Mbps data rate). There’s so much overhead with wireless transmission you’ll never get near it.
Damn linux kernel always optimizing everything without any extra effort from the user :)
I learned something! I learned that you don't know how to run benchmarks properly! 🤣 Just kidding, we all make mistakes 😁