Hertz is out of their mind buying black Tesla's with the large wheel option. That's $3000 more for those 2 things for no reason but worse is how the wheels and paint will be destroyed in no time. Only makes sense to buy "free" white color with base wheels for a rental.
I’ve rented before from hertz, on the introductory email for first time ev renters it states you can bring the car back atleast at 20% of charge so no need to fully charge before returning the rental. Hope this helps
I believe that policy has changed or perhaps is different regionally. Everyone spits out a different number to what they had to bring their car back at - in my case it was 70%
I wish they would allow one way rentals at least to major cities! They do for all other cars! Nobody at all does one way EV rentals and I really need one Florida to LA!
its great to see test like these. it helps those doubts and myths of owning Telsa cars. That Model Y is doing great under the use of unknowledge drivers that don't have the knowledge you have. Great Job once again
Thanks so much for this video. I’m about to receive my first Tesla (Model Y LR) and while I understood about half of what you explained in this video it shows I just have a lot to learn about batteries.
My wife’s 22 MYP lost 7% of its battery capacity in the 1st year and 10k miles. Car never charged beyond 80% and never went below 20% soc a couple of times at most. Supercharged maybe 5 times, rest at home. Just picked up a new 23 M3P. Will see how it does with degradation.
You want to charge all the way to 100% and leave it on the charger until it stops pulling power every once in a while to top balance the cells. Never charging all the way will leave your cells unbalanced. Do that once every 2-3 months and you'll be good
Cool! I am renting a Model 3 SR in a couple weeks for a 4 hour trip to Cleveland for the week and back. My pre-trip planner shows a few superchargers right at the half-way point and my hotel has a Tesla destination charger. I've been thinking about making a video.
I manually calculated 15% degradation on my ‘21 Y LR at a little over 2 years and 53k miles. Always charge to 80% in warm weather and 90% only on the coldest days in the winter - 100% rarely for long trips. I’ve been super happy with these numbers.
Is that mostly supercharging or a mix of home charging too? 15% seems like a lot. I’m curious about my battery condition now. I’ve got a 2021 MYLR with about 28000 miles on it.
that's incorrect, the best you can do is charge to bms full and drive till the car runs out of energy and take a read out of energy used, compare to a full charge afterwards
@@bluedog9935 I have one of the first 2k Model Ys ever made. It's a long range with 57k miles driven in 3 years. I am showing almost 6% battery degradation. I used to charge to 80% daily and 100% before long trips. We take long trips every year. Some of the longest trips are from New England to Florida usually twice a year. I've supercharged my car 103 times. At least 30 of those I charged to 100% or close to it. I've depleted the battery to under 10% also about 30 times. In the last 20 months I've changed how I charge my car and only had a 1% battery degradation. Now I charge to 75% daily at home and 98% when going on a long trip. I don't Supercharge above 98% and try not to go under 5%. Using that charging method, the battery on my wife's 2022 Model Y has degradated only 2% in 20k miles. Just like the Model Y on this video it shows more than the EPA range of 316 (induction wheels). At delivery it had an estimated range of 330 miles, today it is at 323 which is still higher than the 316 EPA range. Hope that can help.
Hertz's website says to return at "at least 10%". The counter says 70% when you pick up the car or you'll be charged $35. I had to stop at 4AM and put some juice in my rental on return to the airport. Worked fine -- of course, because it's Tesla -- but was inconvenient as I would otherwise have gotten to the airport at 67%. :/ They never passed through the Supercharger money I spent as a charge from Hertz, although they did pass through tolls that I hit when following the nav.
I checked our Ioniq 5 AWD at 14k miles and it reported 100% health, seems optimistic to have 0% loss after 1 year but maybe it has a shrinking buffer to make the degradation seem less. But last time I gave it a 100% charge it said 271 miles of range, it was only rated 256 miles new, so maybe it's not too far off.
@@KyleConner right. Interesting coincidence though. Makes you wonder how and what they’re measuring. True test would be range test and health test on a freshy fresh car to get the base line.
@@KyleConner Technically all of the gross capacity is usable if you drive below 0% indicated. Teslas show SOC based on the "usable" capacity (excluding the buffer), but if you drive below 0% indicated, they let you use the buffer as well. When you pulled 76 kWh out, did you stop when the car said 0%, or did you keep going as far as you could past that?
@@KyleConner It would be interesting to see a battery test on a brand new car. Could it be calculating the health on the gross pack size and even a brand new car would show 98% or so since it's only measuring the usable amount on a full charge cycle?
@@PeterGregg it's crazy how many people they have accused of stealing their cars who actually didn't. Steve Lehto has several videos about it. Hertz is extremely incompetent.
It will be interesting to see 4680 battery health over time. Jack Rickard had said the dry electrode process should give high nickel batteries LFP-like battery degradation. I haven't seen any 4680 model Y degradation reports on youtube yet.
Kyle, I use the Tessie app and the battery health tab. Do you have an opinion on its accuracy? I have a 2022 Model Y LR that is 8 months old with 8k easy miles. It shows a 0.9 degradation. That seems about right based upon your test of the rental car.
Kyle - can you share (could be a topic for a video) a protocol we could all use (Tesla owners or not) and report back to you (could be a Google Sheet or Google Form for instance) with data for you to collect and issue report on brand/model/year/built/etc. I'm ready to help set it up if you're interested, I'm sure many are or will be. Let us know! Great vid as always. Keep burning miles and kWH!
I saw Hertz PHX had Polestar 2, Kia Niro EV, and both the 3 and Y. I'd give them a shot, but the premium sedan was only 35/day for the week I'm there and we plan to put on some miles in a short time frame, so gas it is.
That looks exactly like the Model Y I rented from Hertz (Denver airport) back in March during my Spring Break trip to Breckenridge. Overall, very good experience renting from them - highly recommend it. Having to return it at 70-80% was annoying since I had to guestimate how much charge would be required to make it to the drop off location since the nearest supercharger was about 10 miles away (they are now building two more that are much closer) - if were attempting to make a flight, it would be very annoying. I simply returned it the night before to avoid that since I had a super early flight (5am departure) in the morning. Considering that most rental companies hold on to their cars for 2-3 years and then sell them off, I'm wondering how the Model Ys and other EVs will hold up over that time. While they are usually well cared for, they are driven hard. I could see EV rentals being DCFC'd the vast majority of the time which could impact their resell value.
I wish the other manufacturers had something anywhere close to the Tesla service mode. So much cool stuff in there I wish I had access to on my Ioniq 5.
Well I wonder if maybe the fact Hertz was charging to 100% maybe that has contributed to extra degradation. My model Y at 15 months and the Tesla EPA range estimate from new
"I wonder if maybe the fact Hertz was charging to 100% maybe that has contributed to extra degradation." Sure it does. But it's not just Hertz. If you are the renter and have to return it at 70% minimum and the return location is not very near to where you last have time to charge, what are you going to do but charge it pretty full? A friend of mine rented one at IAH recently and, on the morning he was leaving, had to override a Supercharger 90% default shutoff to get it well into the 90s. By the time he rolled into Hertz later that day it was at 72%. BTW, the rental car company wants it back at 70%+ because the car is costing not making money when it's sitting on their lot un-rentable. And If I'm picking it up, I don't want it at 70%, I want it at 8/8 full just like I expect an ICE vehicle.
That's pretty on par with what my model 3 degradation was. I had 15 -16% by my second year. I don't remember exactly what it was after one year I'm thinking 9 or 10% but I had almost zero DC charging I bet the rental car gets DC charged mostly.
I had a modle 3 standard as a rental on a week long stay in dallas. I full charged for the trip back to the airport (I was on the other side of town) so I could be sure to get it there above 70%. When I started out it it said I would arrive at 83% but In the first 10% went in about 20miles, which caused the destination estimate to dramtically lower to just above 70. After that, it leveled out to a more normal consumption rate and I ended up pulling in at 77% It was one of the earlier Hertz cars and I chalked it up to abuse, but now I wish I had found the time to figure out more info about it.
I've been watching prices on used Model Y Long Range, so thanks for this video! Did Colton get a chance to see whether or not the paint could be rescued? In my experience renting a couple of Model 3s from Hertz, the only things they do lock are the glove box and playback of Sentry Mode video (but you can still switch it on/off). Our location had no return-charge requirement. The one thing I wish that I'd been better versed on when returning the car was how to erase location history from navigation.
Hertz should have a charge level request entry field in their reservation system.. Should let you know the car will be provided at 80% SOC unless you request it being higher - by checking a box or something. And the rental contract should let you return the car as low as 20% SOC without a fee - so they don’t have a bricked car if you return it on a cold late night and they aren’t able to put it on a charger til the next morning. Or something like that.
To regain lost/unbalanced capacity, change charge rutine. I used to charge to 90% everyday and used only 10-30% of the battery and then i would charge up again. From the read out on scan my Tesla, nominal full pack was down to 72.2kw. New, gross capacity is 82.2kw, with buffer nominal should be around 79kw and usable 76kw Now i charge to 50%, and each day nominal pack value gains 2-400w. I'm up to 76.5kw and gaining. 2021 TM3P 55k km. From what I experienced this is the best method for balancing hv pack.
Hey I rented from hertz in Atlanta and they said bring it back on 30% . But since they didn’t fully charger it before the rent , they said I could bring it back at 20%
My 2019 Kia E-Niro with 35000 miles still has 100% battery life, and not from the car but a OBD2 scanner. I have only fast charged once, and almost never charge to 100%, usually 80-90%.
What is the ideal way to test a battery for health in terms of lowest time to cycle the health test? For a prospective used car purchase? The notification says >=6kW AC , can a Wall Connector ~11.5kW be used to reduce cycle time of the test? Why was the charger used in the video at the ~6kW mark for this test? Is it better to test at a slower rate for some reason?
I have a 23 MYP. 180 days and 37,117 miles. The battery test states that I have lost 7%. 100% charge. It says that I get 283 miles. Since I’ve had the car, I wanna say I probably charge my car up to 100% about 30 times. I am a good worker and I do roughly about 200 miles a day. I don’t know what to think if I’m doing good with battery degradation but unfortunately I am very hard on the battery. I want to keep it past 120,000 miles but I will probably get rid of it as soon as it hits 115,000 and just get another car. I go through cars like water. on a full charge the best I’ve ever gotten is 221 miles driving 80 miles an hour. I also changed the ratio for the tires. I run a 275/35/21 and 295/35/21.
I am thinking about buying one from Hertz - used - but I do not think that the vehicle is worth $30,000+ with an untested battery. I could rent the vehicle and then test the battery - but I am curious for your results and thoughts about buying a rental EV. I think that a lot of renters just plain out abuse these cars - constant launching and full time supercharging until it is taken out of service. And also my thoughts about buying a used one vs a rental unit. There is no way to tell if the car was used as a Turo rental because that is still a personally owned vehicle.
Battery health is only about degradation not internal resistance. The difference may be that you drove it until it literally stopped which is below 0% i.e. you ate into that bottom buffer. Given that might be 2 or 3% of the total pack size you then have the two figures nearly matching up.
My 2013 Nissan Leaf displays the state of health 2 ways - first is the number of bars out of 12 on the dashboard. Or, I can connect an Obd2 and use Leaf Spy APP to get a number. Can I do similar with Tesla?
Maybe Tesla is calculating degradation based on the full pack when new (rated) capacity of 82.1 kWh, which would put it at a little over 7%, like the car said? It can get confusing discussing battery capacities because there are a lot of different values people throw around, including: full pack when new (rated) = 82.1 kWh nominal full pack when new (actual) = ~79-80 kWh (varies, and can actually rise a little after delivery) usable capacity when new (rated) = 82.1 kWh - 4.5% buffer = 78.4 kWh usable capacity when new (actual) = ~79-80 kWh - 4.5% buffer = ~75-77 kWh It's also important to note that the "usable" capacities are just for calculating the SOC shown by the car, but you can actually continue to drive below 0% and use the buffer / "unusable" portion of the battery. Also, to make matters more confusing, there's a couple different batteries depending on region.
@@rkgsd 90% charged at home, 10% at SuC, battery is sitting most of the time at < 80%, i charge only when needed, on they day to 80% so i use my solar, before i leave i top it up to 90% or (rarely) 100%
Using Scan My Tesla App and the vehicle displays my model 3 LR in the HV screen indicates a battery level of 73.2% and on the battery screen indicates 76.2% so I'm wondering if the vehicle firmware overall degradation also includes that 3kwh of battery capacity you cannot access. So 5% may well be the actual degradation you measured with the driving test.
what? you got hertz insurance? i rented a tesla from avis. they said that no insurance company will insure their or any EV. also, if i charge the car at a supercharger, avia charges me PLUS tesla will charge me. so i said forget it. give me a gas car.
I bought a 22 M3sr and these video's keep scaring me. My AmperaE (Bolt) did so well after 3 years and now I see al these teslas losing 10%+ like its nothing. I get my M3 next year, first thing I do is testing the kwh's that it can deliver. I'm nervous. Some moments I wonder why I even bought it.
Folks should keep in mind some Supercharging stations are 72 kw while others are 250 kw. I would imagine using the faster chargers has more of a health impact.
Hi guys, i need your advice about supercharging my tesla. I owned Tesla Model Y 2021 Long range, so i wanted to know is it bad to charge my car with supercharger every time, cause i feel like im doing smth bad, that i charge my Tesla with supercharger every time. Thanks
Why would you not think Tesla knows how to test the battery? It is doing the same thing (run down/charge up as your drive test, but under more controlled conditions. I
Returning full or paying for charge? That is just stupid. Ufodrive does it the right way, all the charging is included in the rental price, and you return it at any soc with no chargers at all. They are starting to have rental locations in US as well!
I recently put in a Teslogic dash board. Do you have any thoughts on its accuracy for battery degradation? It is advertised as a diagnostic tool and gives interesting information.
TLDR is: It's not as accurate as the manual 100 to 0 test but there must be enough accuracy in it to give the user a good idea of how much usable capacity is left. It just compares what the BMS thinks (using values provided over the OBD port) that the battery has left (which is a guess based on a few factors) with the "when new" value. The best way to guess how much capacity is left is to drive it from 100% to dead and look at the consumed kWh as Kyle said. The BMS guesses the remaining usable capacity in another way, because the typical user doesn't do that on a regular basis. So its values are probably not as accurate as the aforementioned test. Of course there is some buffer to make up for the error + some constant measurements so you don't get stranded.
@@nefarian1986 Thank you for that. Put it on a 22PY, 1200 miles and it's showing 4.7 % degradation. It will now be driven more and I'll be interested to see how that information may change.
Lower is better for long term battery health. 50% is optimal, higher % charge is stressful on the battery. It's not linear though, there is a big difference between 90% and 100%, but not a very big difference once you get below 70%.
On the range test, did you drive past 0%? That may explain the difference. Tesla is using 0% as the baseline but you got a bit better perceived health by driving past 0%. This would also assume the 79.5kWh you got from viewers is not from a "drive until dead" range test.
The fee for not bringing it back at 70% is $30. That is not unreasonable. Depending on how much ia super charger session might cost and how you value your time you’re better off just returning it at low SOC and paying $30.
At a minimum, the fee should be proportional to the SOC shortfall, and not some flat amount. A $30 fee for returning the car at 10% is not horrible. But, a $30 fee for returning it at 69% would be robbery.
Lol you should probably stop using "Red Hot" as the reference for the battery temps. 64C is definitely hot for battery temps but to say "red hot" might be a little scary for some. Most people reference metal when they think "red hot" which generally* starts to show red around 500C. Specially in the US when most don't use C they have no reference to go from. So to assume its so hot that it is red might be mind boggling to some. I could also just be a picky viewer LOL, if thats the case sorry about that. Eitherway, still a great video as usual. cheers.
Hertz is going to be generating so much money from used EV sales starting next year is my guess. Usually, these rental car companies use a car for a couple of years then sell them off. It is a nice business model because they make money renting the vehicle and then sell it off which many buyers see something just two years old or less, they are attracted to it. My only fear is what Kyle hit on, the hard use and straight up abuse. Hearing the Hertz staff is keeping vehicles at 100% state of charge does make you wonder what kind of training they are getting. It is going to be interesting to see if we start hearing horror stories from people who bought a rental EV from places like Hertz. Unless they are selling their used EVs at below market prices, I cannot see myself grabbing one from there.
Our rental MY in January in Michigan was picked up with a 90% charge, 12k miles on it, and all rims were curbed. 9 day rental (trip to FL) was a blast!
You mentioned in the 10% video challenge that it is not possible to pair a rental Tesla on the app , how can we deal with the superchargers payment’s ? I really wanna know cause I'm planning to visit the US and rent a Tesla 😆
When I fill up my ICE car, it's a full tank every time. Couldn't imagine NOT topping it off every time. I''ll be doing the same to my electric car as well. Seems silly to hardly ever use 100% of the car's battery regardless of battery degradation.
That's what the battery warranty is for. It's almost false advertising to say an EV can drive 300 miles on a full charge, but don't do that because it kills the battery.
@@sidzhottake - filling an EV - to whatever charge percentage you select - at home (if possible), requires no fuel stop - only seconds required each time you plug in.
Several comments: 1) The problem is not that people at Hertz (or wherever) don't know all the ins and outs of EV charging, etc., it's that there's way too much to have to know. Not sure why the EV fans don't get this, but all us normies are used to vehicles where we don't have to know 100 things about putting the nozzle in and squeezing the trigger until it shuts off and all the ways that changes from car to car, or one model year to the next model year, or one size tank in that model to the next, or gas pump to gas pump, or busy station to lonely station, or a brand new pump to last year's model, or as the weather changes, or how far it was we had to drive to the station, or whether we told the car we were going to get gas or not, or according to which card we used at the pump, or which app, or …. The problem is not "our" knowledge. The problem is "your" system. 2) The reason Hertz, or any other rental car company, wants the car back at 70% is that the car ONLY MAKES MONEY for them when it's out on a rental. It just bleeds their money when it's sitting on their lot. If you think that every EV rental should be charged at the advertised duration rate PLUS 4 hours overage, which typically adds a day rental charge to the contract, then yeah, let them spend that four hours charging the vehicle back up. All their ICE cars can be turned around in fifteen minutes or so. (And that allows them time to do a better job cleaning them than they usually do.) If you say they should charge them from, say, near 0% back to, what, 80%?, then you have to understand their existing economic model isn't consistent with that and let them change that model.
Your two comments are contradictory. Charging from 0-80% actually takes less time than from 80-100%. If Hertz doesn't want to spend extra time on charging, then 80% should be the ideal threshold.
@@littledovecitydust Tell it to Hertz, not me. I wasn’t arguing Hertz should charge it to 100%, but I also understand why a renter might expect a fully charged car just as we expect 8/8 fill on gas rentals. The video was commenting on how it was poor form-in terms of battery longevity-of them to charge to 100%, and on the relative ignorance of the worker-bees at Hertz for not knowing this. Is it bad for their business model to waste the time charging to 100%? Sure, but that same worker-bee who thinks he’s being helpful to the renter charging it to 100% likely doesn’t understand that, either. Again, the issue is that the ins and outs of charging BEVs are an order of magnitude more complicated than filling an ICE car with gas. Little wonder this is causing problems.
@@outby50 the rentals cars I've has in recent years have never been fueled to the full mark. With gas cars, people take advantage of the dial not moving while on the first few gallons, resulting in rental car companies now fill their cars to 3/4 or 1/2 tank. With EVs, it's the same problem: for customers or the rental companies, it's just too time consuming to fully charge EVs. 80-90% full seems to be the norm. If someone really wants to impress you, as in Kyle's case, they will fully charge the car for you.
I suspect in a few years the BMS systems and buffers will allow new owners to not worry about only charging to 80 or 90% and it'll be fine to charge to 100%. I bet by the 2035 phaseout (depending on region/country) that's so often fearmongered about that all the tips and tricks mentioned in these videos will no longer be relevant.
10% degradation after 100K miles? There's nothing to bitch about with those stats. 👽👍 Also, here in Virginia you can rent a model 3 for under $60 a day.
literally the talent here is taking a simple topic and filling it in 20 minutes...
Hertz is out of their mind buying black Tesla's with the large wheel option. That's $3000 more for those 2 things for no reason but worse is how the wheels and paint will be destroyed in no time. Only makes sense to buy "free" white color with base wheels for a rental.
Plus it is ugly and boring with all black.
Paint was likely free - volume purchase.
They probably bought less popular inventory ones for base prices
Rental car companies pay fleet pricing and don't pay upcharges for options.
Tesla gave no deal to hertz
I feel like I’m taking an online EV class with every video I watch of yours and I think your a great teacher.
Would love to see some degredation tests on LFP cars in the future, would certainly be interesting to compare.
I have 17k on mine. Might just do that!
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I’ve rented before from hertz, on the introductory email for first time ev renters it states you can bring the car back atleast at 20% of charge so no need to fully charge before returning the rental. Hope this helps
I believe that policy has changed or perhaps is different regionally. Everyone spits out a different number to what they had to bring their car back at - in my case it was 70%
Rented Y from Hertz last year. Minimum return charge was 10%. Rented recently and was now 80%. Surprised it wasn't always that percentage.
70% when I rented.
In September 22 in LAX the FAQ said 10 % minimum. I returned it with 8 % because i was in a hurry. No problem at all.
I wish they would allow one way rentals at least to major cities! They do for all other cars! Nobody at all does one way EV rentals and I really need one Florida to LA!
its great to see test like these. it helps those doubts and myths of owning Telsa cars. That Model Y is doing great under the use of unknowledge drivers that don't have the knowledge you have. Great Job once again
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One of the best things about this video is the time of day you chose to shoot it. Look at that golden hour light and those clouds! Well done!
My 2018 Model 3 LR with 176,000 miles says it's still at 85% battery health.
Thanks so much for this video. I’m about to receive my first Tesla (Model Y LR) and while I understood about half of what you explained in this video it shows I just have a lot to learn about batteries.
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My wife’s 22 MYP lost 7% of its battery capacity in the 1st year and 10k miles. Car never charged beyond 80% and never went below 20% soc a couple of times at most. Supercharged maybe 5 times, rest at home. Just picked up a new 23 M3P. Will see how it does with degradation.
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You want to charge all the way to 100% and leave it on the charger until it stops pulling power every once in a while to top balance the cells. Never charging all the way will leave your cells unbalanced. Do that once every 2-3 months and you'll be good
Cool! I am renting a Model 3 SR in a couple weeks for a 4 hour trip to Cleveland for the week and back. My pre-trip planner shows a few superchargers right at the half-way point and my hotel has a Tesla destination charger. I've been thinking about making a video.
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I manually calculated 15% degradation on my ‘21 Y LR at a little over 2 years and 53k miles. Always charge to 80% in warm weather and 90% only on the coldest days in the winter - 100% rarely for long trips. I’ve been super happy with these numbers.
Is that mostly supercharging or a mix of home charging too? 15% seems like a lot. I’m curious about my battery condition now. I’ve got a 2021 MYLR with about 28000 miles on it.
15%? thats horrible
that's incorrect, the best you can do is charge to bms full and drive till the car runs out of energy and take a read out of energy used, compare to a full charge afterwards
@@bluedog9935 I have one of the first 2k Model Ys ever made. It's a long range with 57k miles driven in 3 years. I am showing almost 6% battery degradation.
I used to charge to 80% daily and 100% before long trips. We take long trips every year. Some of the longest trips are from New England to Florida usually twice a year. I've supercharged my car 103 times. At least 30 of those I charged to 100% or close to it. I've depleted the battery to under 10% also about 30 times. In the last 20 months I've changed how I charge my car and only had a 1% battery degradation. Now I charge to 75% daily at home and 98% when going on a long trip. I don't Supercharge above 98% and try not to go under 5%.
Using that charging method, the battery on my wife's 2022 Model Y has degradated only 2% in 20k miles. Just like the Model Y on this video it shows more than the EPA range of 316 (induction wheels). At delivery it had an estimated range of 330 miles, today it is at 323 which is still higher than the 316 EPA range.
Hope that can help.
That is really bad: you should check with Tesla to get an accurate test. You may be eligible for a new battery.
Hertz's website says to return at "at least 10%". The counter says 70% when you pick up the car or you'll be charged $35. I had to stop at 4AM and put some juice in my rental on return to the airport. Worked fine -- of course, because it's Tesla -- but was inconvenient as I would otherwise have gotten to the airport at 67%. :/ They never passed through the Supercharger money I spent as a charge from Hertz, although they did pass through tolls that I hit when following the nav.
Same. I haven’t seen the supercharger money. And it’s been 2 weeks.
They just updated their website after Kyle mentioned it, now it says you need >70% when you drop it off or it's an extra $35 fee.
I checked our Ioniq 5 AWD at 14k miles and it reported 100% health, seems optimistic to have 0% loss after 1 year but maybe it has a shrinking buffer to make the degradation seem less. But last time I gave it a 100% charge it said 271 miles of range, it was only rated 256 miles new, so maybe it's not too far off.
76 kWh comes out to exactly 92.6% of 82 kWh. So maybe 93% health is pretty close!
82kWh is gross, not usable though - it seems about 79.5kWh is usable
@@KyleConner right. Interesting coincidence though. Makes you wonder how and what they’re measuring. True test would be range test and health test on a freshy fresh car to get the base line.
@@greengrass89 totally agree!
@@KyleConner Technically all of the gross capacity is usable if you drive below 0% indicated. Teslas show SOC based on the "usable" capacity (excluding the buffer), but if you drive below 0% indicated, they let you use the buffer as well. When you pulled 76 kWh out, did you stop when the car said 0%, or did you keep going as far as you could past that?
@@KyleConner It would be interesting to see a battery test on a brand new car. Could it be calculating the health on the gross pack size and even a brand new car would show 98% or so since it's only measuring the usable amount on a full charge cycle?
You rented it from Hertz? There's a good chance Hertz will put out an arrest warrant for you! 🤣
Interesting that Hertz is a deputized arm of the law now lol
@@PeterGregg it's crazy how many people they have accused of stealing their cars who actually didn't. Steve Lehto has several videos about it. Hertz is extremely incompetent.
😂
Yes, this is a thing and people should be concerned about it. They literally don't care if a clerical error gets somebody arrested at gunpoint.
Max 3hrs Parking: We'll just leave it here overnight and see what it shows tomorrow! :)
Was thinking the same thing. It would have been much safer to run the test back in the garage, plugged into a home charger.
Never knew how to do this mode… cool. I’m doing this tonight!
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It will be interesting to see 4680 battery health over time. Jack Rickard had said the dry electrode process should give high nickel batteries LFP-like battery degradation. I haven't seen any 4680 model Y degradation reports on youtube yet.
Kyle, I use the Tessie app and the battery health tab. Do you have an opinion on its accuracy? I have a 2022 Model Y LR that is 8 months old with 8k easy miles. It shows a 0.9 degradation. That seems about right based upon your test of the rental car.
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Kyle - can you share (could be a topic for a video) a protocol we could all use (Tesla owners or not) and report back to you (could be a Google Sheet or Google Form for instance) with data for you to collect and issue report on brand/model/year/built/etc. I'm ready to help set it up if you're interested, I'm sure many are or will be. Let us know! Great vid as always. Keep burning miles and kWH!
I saw Hertz PHX had Polestar 2, Kia Niro EV, and both the 3 and Y. I'd give them a shot, but the premium sedan was only 35/day for the week I'm there and we plan to put on some miles in a short time frame, so gas it is.
That gap between the headliner and b-pillar. Urgghhh
That looks exactly like the Model Y I rented from Hertz (Denver airport) back in March during my Spring Break trip to Breckenridge. Overall, very good experience renting from them - highly recommend it. Having to return it at 70-80% was annoying since I had to guestimate how much charge would be required to make it to the drop off location since the nearest supercharger was about 10 miles away (they are now building two more that are much closer) - if were attempting to make a flight, it would be very annoying. I simply returned it the night before to avoid that since I had a super early flight (5am departure) in the morning.
Considering that most rental companies hold on to their cars for 2-3 years and then sell them off, I'm wondering how the Model Ys and other EVs will hold up over that time. While they are usually well cared for, they are driven hard. I could see EV rentals being DCFC'd the vast majority of the time which could impact their resell value.
I wish the other manufacturers had something anywhere close to the Tesla service mode. So much cool stuff in there I wish I had access to on my Ioniq 5.
Well I wonder if maybe the fact Hertz was charging to 100% maybe that has contributed to extra degradation. My model Y at 15 months and the Tesla EPA range estimate from new
"I wonder if maybe the fact Hertz was charging to 100% maybe that has contributed to extra degradation."
Sure it does. But it's not just Hertz. If you are the renter and have to return it at 70% minimum and the return location is not very near to where you last have time to charge, what are you going to do but charge it pretty full? A friend of mine rented one at IAH recently and, on the morning he was leaving, had to override a Supercharger 90% default shutoff to get it well into the 90s. By the time he rolled into Hertz later that day it was at 72%. BTW, the rental car company wants it back at 70%+ because the car is costing not making money when it's sitting on their lot un-rentable. And If I'm picking it up, I don't want it at 70%, I want it at 8/8 full just like I expect an ICE vehicle.
That's pretty on par with what my model 3 degradation was. I had 15 -16% by my second year. I don't remember exactly what it was after one year I'm thinking 9 or 10% but I had almost zero DC charging I bet the rental car gets DC charged mostly.
I had a modle 3 standard as a rental on a week long stay in dallas. I full charged for the trip back to the airport (I was on the other side of town) so I could be sure to get it there above 70%. When I started out it it said I would arrive at 83% but In the first 10% went in about 20miles, which caused the destination estimate to dramtically lower to just above 70. After that, it leveled out to a more normal consumption rate and I ended up pulling in at 77% It was one of the earlier Hertz cars and I chalked it up to abuse, but now I wish I had found the time to figure out more info about it.
I've been watching prices on used Model Y Long Range, so thanks for this video! Did Colton get a chance to see whether or not the paint could be rescued?
In my experience renting a couple of Model 3s from Hertz, the only things they do lock are the glove box and playback of Sentry Mode video (but you can still switch it on/off). Our location had no return-charge requirement. The one thing I wish that I'd been better versed on when returning the car was how to erase location history from navigation.
Hertz should have a charge level request entry field in their reservation system.. Should let you know the car will be provided at 80% SOC unless you request it being higher - by checking a box or something.
And the rental contract should let you return the car as low as 20% SOC without a fee - so they don’t have a bricked car if you return it on a cold late night and they aren’t able to put it on a charger til the next morning. Or something like that.
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To regain lost/unbalanced capacity, change charge rutine.
I used to charge to 90% everyday and used only 10-30% of the battery and then i would charge up again.
From the read out on scan my Tesla, nominal full pack was down to 72.2kw.
New, gross capacity is 82.2kw, with buffer nominal should be around 79kw and usable 76kw
Now i charge to 50%, and each day nominal pack value gains 2-400w. I'm up to 76.5kw and gaining.
2021 TM3P 55k km.
From what I experienced this is the best method for balancing hv pack.
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Interesting that a 50% charge can increase capacity. Would think that an occasional 100% charge would be required to expand current capacity.
Hey I rented from hertz in Atlanta and they said bring it back on 30% . But since they didn’t fully charger it before the rent , they said I could bring it back at 20%
Awesome video. Super informative and great presentation. Thank you! Subbed!
My 2019 Kia E-Niro with 35000 miles still has 100% battery life, and not from the car but a OBD2 scanner. I have only fast charged once, and almost never charge to 100%, usually 80-90%.
That’t because kia is hiding degradation because first only the top buffer degrateds, and tesla doesn’t use a hidden top buffer
Roughly 4% -7% battery degradation in first 10 months and 12k miles. Saved you 20 mins
What is the ideal way to test a battery for health in terms of lowest time to cycle the health test? For a prospective used car purchase?
The notification says >=6kW AC , can a Wall Connector ~11.5kW be used to reduce cycle time of the test?
Why was the charger used in the video at the ~6kW mark for this test? Is it better to test at a slower rate for some reason?
Hey Kyle when is the next road trip will be
Yup those are his best videos!
Would love to see someone test the health impact on a Tesla that's been exclusively Supercharged vs one that's been home charged.
I have a 23 MYP. 180 days and 37,117 miles. The battery test states that I have lost 7%. 100% charge. It says that I get 283 miles. Since I’ve had the car, I wanna say I probably charge my car up to 100% about 30 times. I am a good worker and I do roughly about 200 miles a day. I don’t know what to think if I’m doing good with battery degradation but unfortunately I am very hard on the battery. I want to keep it past 120,000 miles but I will probably get rid of it as soon as it hits 115,000 and just get another car. I go through cars like water. on a full charge the best I’ve ever gotten is 221 miles driving 80 miles an hour. I also changed the ratio for the tires. I run a 275/35/21 and 295/35/21.
I am thinking about buying one from Hertz - used - but I do not think that the vehicle is worth $30,000+ with an untested battery.
I could rent the vehicle and then test the battery - but I am curious for your results and thoughts about buying a rental EV.
I think that a lot of renters just plain out abuse these cars - constant launching and full time supercharging until it is taken out of service.
And also my thoughts about buying a used one vs a rental unit. There is no way to tell if the car was used as a Turo rental because that is still a personally owned vehicle.
Battery health is only about degradation not internal resistance. The difference may be that you drove it until it literally stopped which is below 0% i.e. you ate into that bottom buffer. Given that might be 2 or 3% of the total pack size you then have the two figures nearly matching up.
I just rented a model Y from Hertz two days ago at LAX, and it was $70/day.
…is there an 4 minute Executive Summary of this???
Yeah right when I was about to leave because talking waaaaay too much about nothing t.
Start watching at 5:25 … thank me later
My 2013 Nissan Leaf displays the state of health 2 ways - first is the number of bars out of 12 on the dashboard. Or, I can connect an Obd2 and use Leaf Spy APP to get a number. Can I do similar with Tesla?
Does this one have the comfort suspension?
Is it locked in chill mode? I think the tyres of the rent cars will go quick to bold
Maybe Tesla is calculating degradation based on the full pack when new (rated) capacity of 82.1 kWh, which would put it at a little over 7%, like the car said? It can get confusing discussing battery capacities because there are a lot of different values people throw around, including:
full pack when new (rated) = 82.1 kWh
nominal full pack when new (actual) = ~79-80 kWh (varies, and can actually rise a little after delivery)
usable capacity when new (rated) = 82.1 kWh - 4.5% buffer = 78.4 kWh
usable capacity when new (actual) = ~79-80 kWh - 4.5% buffer = ~75-77 kWh
It's also important to note that the "usable" capacities are just for calculating the SOC shown by the car, but you can actually continue to drive below 0% and use the buffer / "unusable" portion of the battery.
Also, to make matters more confusing, there's a couple different batteries depending on region.
Super valuable Kyle! I have learned a lot in this one. Thanks for sharing the service mode info.
What track did you go to? IMI, High plains?
40-50% is the optimal range? I’ve been doing 50-60% on my Lightning and charging @ 240v 6 amps thinking I’m doing the best for the battery 😵💫
My SR+ 2019 had 5% degradation after 1.5 year, now at a age of 4 year and 100.00km it levels out at 7.5% and 47.2kWh capacity👍
Has it been charged at home or Supercharged and has it been charged to 80, 90 or 100%?
@@rkgsd 90% charged at home, 10% at SuC, battery is sitting most of the time at < 80%, i charge only when needed, on they day to 80% so i use my solar, before i leave i top it up to 90% or (rarely) 100%
Using Scan My Tesla App and the vehicle displays my model 3 LR in the HV screen indicates a battery level of 73.2% and on the battery screen indicates 76.2% so I'm wondering if the vehicle firmware overall degradation also includes that 3kwh of battery capacity you cannot access. So 5% may well be the actual degradation you measured with the driving test.
76kW is roughly 93% of the full 82kW battery. My guess is that going past 0% eats into that 2.5kW buffer.
what? you got hertz insurance? i rented a tesla from avis. they said that no insurance company will insure their or any EV. also, if i charge the car at a supercharger, avia charges me PLUS tesla will charge me. so i said forget it. give me a gas car.
I bought a 22 M3sr and these video's keep scaring me. My AmperaE (Bolt) did so well after 3 years and now I see al these teslas losing 10%+ like its nothing. I get my M3 next year, first thing I do is testing the kwh's that it can deliver. I'm nervous. Some moments I wonder why I even bought it.
You should offer EV charging training materials and tutorial to Hertz that will inform their charge policies. 💡😮 19:14
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Can you do this on a model s ? I'm thinking of buying a 3 year old one great video by the way
Kile just a heads up in the flow screen it say speed limit lock?
Does anybody compared the Tesla Service mode degradation test with the Tessie app SoH score? Of yes, how did they compare?
Folks should keep in mind some Supercharging stations are 72 kw while others are 250 kw. I would imagine using the faster chargers has more of a health impact.
Our Model S85 had 7% degredation when we bought it at 71k miles and 7 years old.
Why do you think home charging is better for the battery?
Hi guys, i need your advice about supercharging my tesla.
I owned Tesla Model Y 2021 Long range, so i wanted to know is it bad to charge my car with supercharger every time, cause i feel like im doing smth bad, that i charge my Tesla with supercharger every time.
Thanks
Why would you not think Tesla knows how to test the battery? It is doing the same thing (run down/charge up as your drive test, but under more controlled conditions. I
Can this be done at a Tesla Super Charger or will I get fined?
Returning full or paying for charge? That is just stupid.
Ufodrive does it the right way, all the charging is included in the rental price, and you return it at any soc with no chargers at all.
They are starting to have rental locations in US as well!
Please do this to Gm bolt.I would expect it to be really bad and that Gm would be lying about there numbers.
93-94% after 4.5 years and 77k miles on my 2017 Bolt. New battery added 20% more range!
I recently put in a Teslogic dash board. Do you have any thoughts on its accuracy for battery degradation?
It is advertised as a diagnostic tool and gives interesting information.
TLDR is: It's not as accurate as the manual 100 to 0 test but there must be enough accuracy in it to give the user a good idea of how much usable capacity is left.
It just compares what the BMS thinks (using values provided over the OBD port) that the battery has left (which is a guess based on a few factors) with the "when new" value. The best way to guess how much capacity is left is to drive it from 100% to dead and look at the consumed kWh as Kyle said. The BMS guesses the remaining usable capacity in another way, because the typical user doesn't do that on a regular basis. So its values are probably not as accurate as the aforementioned test.
Of course there is some buffer to make up for the error + some constant measurements so you don't get stranded.
@@nefarian1986 Thank you for that. Put it on a 22PY, 1200 miles and it's showing 4.7 % degradation. It will now be driven more and I'll be interested to see how that information may change.
I own a 2016 Model X, how can I do the same test?
Can you share info on why you limit SOC to 50%?
Lower is better for long term battery health. 50% is optimal, higher % charge is stressful on the battery. It's not linear though, there is a big difference between 90% and 100%, but not a very big difference once you get below 70%.
About the same degradation as my wife's almost 3yo Leaf Plus with 28,000 miles. But the Leaf does have a NMC532 million mile battery.
Are you sure the Leaf has a NMC532 battery ?
Because according to Jeff Dahn, NMC532 is more like a 5 million miles battery
On the range test, did you drive past 0%? That may explain the difference. Tesla is using 0% as the baseline but you got a bit better perceived health by driving past 0%. This would also assume the 79.5kWh you got from viewers is not from a "drive until dead" range test.
How long did the test end up taking given you started at only 5%?
% of what? I really need to know how many kilowatts the battery has left. Percentage does not give the user much information on available range.
Kyle do you know anyone who rents 1 way rentals? I need to drive EV from Florida to LA just can’t one to rent!
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Its 82kwh gross capacity and 77 net basically. Nobody did drain More than that out of it even when its new
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Hertz locked my rental to 85mph which also locks it in chill mode, very annoying for a road trip.
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Mine was set to 90 mph speed but I could still change the mode between all three.
3 hr limit, Kyle ;).
In the clickbait picture he is showing how long his last captured fish was, wright?
The fee for not bringing it back at 70% is $30. That is not unreasonable. Depending on how much ia super charger session might cost and how you value your time you’re better off just returning it at low SOC and paying $30.
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At a minimum, the fee should be proportional to the SOC shortfall, and not some flat amount. A $30 fee for returning the car at 10% is not horrible. But, a $30 fee for returning it at 69% would be robbery.
Lol you should probably stop using "Red Hot" as the reference for the battery temps. 64C is definitely hot for battery temps but to say "red hot" might be a little scary for some. Most people reference metal when they think "red hot" which generally* starts to show red around 500C.
Specially in the US when most don't use C they have no reference to go from. So to assume its so hot that it is red might be mind boggling to some. I could also just be a picky viewer LOL, if thats the case sorry about that.
Eitherway, still a great video as usual. cheers.
Can you subscribe to Autopilot in this rental? Great video. Thanks.
Autopilot is standard.
Are you going to do the 10% test on the Taycan and Lucid? More Anna, Ms. Franco, and your Dad please.
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Will entering Service Mode void the warranty?
They wouldn't let the owner enter it through the screen if it did.
Hertz is going to be generating so much money from used EV sales starting next year is my guess. Usually, these rental car companies use a car for a couple of years then sell them off. It is a nice business model because they make money renting the vehicle and then sell it off which many buyers see something just two years old or less, they are attracted to it. My only fear is what Kyle hit on, the hard use and straight up abuse. Hearing the Hertz staff is keeping vehicles at 100% state of charge does make you wonder what kind of training they are getting.
It is going to be interesting to see if we start hearing horror stories from people who bought a rental EV from places like Hertz. Unless they are selling their used EVs at below market prices, I cannot see myself grabbing one from there.
First thing I noticed on our Hertz Model Y rental was that all four induction wheels were curbed/gouged.
Our rental MY in January in Michigan was picked up with a 90% charge, 12k miles on it, and all rims were curbed. 9 day rental (trip to FL) was a blast!
@@dennislyon5412 If rental cars are sold off cheap enough, just get new rims and that is fine by me. :)
@@kevtheobald - agree! It may be a good way to pick up your first EV.
I feel hertz must keep their teslas better maintained than personal owners who do nothing lol
You mentioned in the 10% video challenge that it is not possible to pair a rental Tesla on the app , how can we deal with the superchargers payment’s ?
I really wanna know cause I'm planning to visit the US and rent a Tesla 😆
Hertz just adds the supercharging fees to your credit card used to pay for the rental.
@@mowcowbell Thank you 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Just plug and charge, no account needed. After I supercharged, no additional charges were put on my card.
@@littledovecitydust That’s awesome , thank you
When I fill up my ICE car, it's a full tank every time. Couldn't imagine NOT topping it off every time. I''ll be doing the same to my electric car as well. Seems silly to hardly ever use 100% of the car's battery regardless of battery degradation.
That's what the battery warranty is for. It's almost false advertising to say an EV can drive 300 miles on a full charge, but don't do that because it kills the battery.
@@Timmymao163 Preach!
But you don’t need to “fill” the ICE car either.
@@dennislyon5412 true true but... why wouldn't I? The longer I can go between fill-ups, the better for me.
@@sidzhottake - filling an EV - to whatever charge percentage you select - at home (if possible), requires no fuel stop - only seconds required each time you plug in.
Would be cool with a comparison to Tessie app health status.
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NCA chemistry, no?
Several comments:
1) The problem is not that people at Hertz (or wherever) don't know all the ins and outs of EV charging, etc., it's that there's way too much to have to know. Not sure why the EV fans don't get this, but all us normies are used to vehicles where we don't have to know 100 things about putting the nozzle in and squeezing the trigger until it shuts off and all the ways that changes from car to car, or one model year to the next model year, or one size tank in that model to the next, or gas pump to gas pump, or busy station to lonely station, or a brand new pump to last year's model, or as the weather changes, or how far it was we had to drive to the station, or whether we told the car we were going to get gas or not, or according to which card we used at the pump, or which app, or …. The problem is not "our" knowledge. The problem is "your" system.
2) The reason Hertz, or any other rental car company, wants the car back at 70% is that the car ONLY MAKES MONEY for them when it's out on a rental. It just bleeds their money when it's sitting on their lot. If you think that every EV rental should be charged at the advertised duration rate PLUS 4 hours overage, which typically adds a day rental charge to the contract, then yeah, let them spend that four hours charging the vehicle back up. All their ICE cars can be turned around in fifteen minutes or so. (And that allows them time to do a better job cleaning them than they usually do.) If you say they should charge them from, say, near 0% back to, what, 80%?, then you have to understand their existing economic model isn't consistent with that and let them change that model.
Your two comments are contradictory. Charging from 0-80% actually takes less time than from 80-100%. If Hertz doesn't want to spend extra time on charging, then 80% should be the ideal threshold.
@@littledovecitydust Tell it to Hertz, not me. I wasn’t arguing Hertz should charge it to 100%, but I also understand why a renter might expect a fully charged car just as we expect 8/8 fill on gas rentals.
The video was commenting on how it was poor form-in terms of battery longevity-of them to charge to 100%, and on the relative ignorance of the worker-bees at Hertz for not knowing this. Is it bad for their business model to waste the time charging to 100%? Sure, but that same worker-bee who thinks he’s being helpful to the renter charging it to 100% likely doesn’t understand that, either. Again, the issue is that the ins and outs of charging BEVs are an order of magnitude more complicated than filling an ICE car with gas. Little wonder this is causing problems.
@@outby50 the rentals cars I've has in recent years have never been fueled to the full mark. With gas cars, people take advantage of the dial not moving while on the first few gallons, resulting in rental car companies now fill their cars to 3/4 or 1/2 tank. With EVs, it's the same problem: for customers or the rental companies, it's just too time consuming to fully charge EVs. 80-90% full seems to be the norm. If someone really wants to impress you, as in Kyle's case, they will fully charge the car for you.
Hertz just needs to have a supercharger at each location.
How did you get the 4-5% depredation from 93% health?
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At SJC they only ask for 10% on return.....
I suspect in a few years the BMS systems and buffers will allow new owners to not worry about only charging to 80 or 90% and it'll be fine to charge to 100%. I bet by the 2035 phaseout (depending on region/country) that's so often fearmongered about that all the tips and tricks mentioned in these videos will no longer be relevant.
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3hr time limit to park, 14.5 hours to fully charge LOL
I think I heard Alissa?!
“Camera Operator”
@@BrandonDoyleMN lol yes
If I'm renting a Tesla I want it at 100%. Fuck degredation, they're making enough money off of the car.
10% degradation after 100K miles? There's nothing to bitch about with those stats. 👽👍 Also, here in Virginia you can rent a model 3 for under $60 a day.
@16:37
You realize that you can turn off the speed limit in service mode right?
I didn’t realize! I will keep it open all the time now haha
How?
@@xyyzs7023 You go into the "Service Settings" menu and toggle the "Remove Speed Limit" option to on.