Regretting having The Changeling commission painted for the Chaos Knights I'm putting together at the moment! I can live with the increases to my Votann list, though Uthar and Beserks could have done with small drops I reckon.
Seeing as how guard have the 3rd lowest win rate and the only points changes they got were nerfs, i think its pretty hilarious. The order changes that you made such a big deal about being great were what we had before and they took it away for no reason, this is just giving us back what we had. Now withthe battle shock and reinforcement changes its for certain overall a nerf.
They completely over did the nerfs for csm. Took away so much flavour in list building and hit somethings like 3 times. I get the points increases but coming Gw. They went completely overboard!
I like most of it. A bit unsure about the daemons though. I think they need to tweak the battleline units a little bit, point drops aren't quite enough. Also, taking Be'Lakor will be interesting now.
Astra militarum being mainly untouched is absolutely absurd. Drop some points on forgeworld unplayable units. 60 points for death rider commander is ridiculous. Malcadors should also drop in points. Marauders should drop in points. Death Korps engineers being missing for all of 10th is absurd. Wtf gw warhammer whatever you want to be called
Also, 30 points isn't going to mean "maybe less manticores". I don't see how it can reasonably be taken at all when it costs as much as a russ. And honestly I miss having fun artillery, especially when it's one of the only things that gets to use born soldiers. It's like a whole section of the army has been nerfed past being fun or competitive.
@@sethbacon7490 The thing is, it gives a few shots at good strength and D3 _anywhere_ on the battlefield. It's not crushingly powerful in raw output, but for a faction without many ways to push _very_ aggressively and punish backlines, it's gold. Even at 180 points - its _role_ is just too important. And when an important role is filled by a unit that gets nerfed... well, you eat the nerf and keep going. You need that piece anyway.
"I think this was expected" re: AdMech - not to those of us who play the faction, it wasn't. We have plenty of data showing how bad the faction is. That's why nobody is playing the faction, and you'd think that nobody playing it would be a sign that it needs help. Frankly, it comes off as really patronizing to say, "Go play games with your awful army so they can get data, so that maybe one day you can get a buff."
Not really, because the way GW is capturing army data, which has been on WarCom, is from win rates, not army participation. There are a number of armies, such as GSC and Drukhari, with small player bases but are performing different. Hence how GW justifies their method. So, really VT telling you to play games is good advice. Forces GW to see what you see in your army.
@@MrGilmo88 Except Drukhari just got a brand new detachment. Admech is now easily the worst faction in the game. And even if you think a 4x% winrate is true and OK, you have to see that people HATE playing admech. It has an absolute tiny playersize and anyone who actually own the army will tell you its unfun, unthematic and a miserable experience to play with them. GW will probably just give them a bone down the line (some army rule buff) but it's the worst codex in the past 10 years. Absolutely dead faction for the edition. The only thing saving Admech would be a complete rewrite starting with datasheets. But that's not gonna happen.
Hey to throw it in this chat, they are encouraging players to play because GW already know Admech is struggling and GW ain’t happy. This was mentioned by Liam stream. They want more data to make a concrete decision.
@@zarbonian if GW isn't happy (and I haven't seen any reason to think they're not), know who has the power to fix it? GW. Blaming the players is essentially scapegoating, if not full victim blaming.
@@Sparkyinbozo-xe9fn yeah you guys are taking things out of context here. Like I get it. Your faction hasn’t been touched and they really needed something but no one is scapegoating anyone. Gw is just now more helbent on making decisions based on more data, even if that data is clearly pointed one direction. It’s why Vanguard said what they said and the statement has been shared with other content creators. Now some creators are more outspoken but their honest opinion but again GW is aware and if they get more games recorded can consider doing a major overhaul all together.
And not an insignificant amount either. It's also good to see the screamer killer go down in points. But making the neurolictor cost the same as the deathleaper leaves a sour taste.
@@klompb The points drop is not a buff. When the Tyranid Codex was released, the Tyrannofex cost 190 pts without its -1D rule. GW simply made the Tyrannofex so expensive that it was no longer playable. So it's not a buff, but simply a correction of the adjustment after the codex. Screamer Killer works great with the Neurolictor because it only has S10. We don't need more killing power for infantry, but ways to crack tanks. But since the Neurolictor became 15 pts expensive, the whole combo only costs 30 pts less if you take three SK and three Neurolictor.
Man they just took competitive world eaters out back and put it down violently. We had like 4 usable units Angron, MoE+zerks, 8bound and ex8bpund and they all caught nerfs on what was already a glass cannon army.
@@seeya20743WTF do you mean glossed over? They spent the second longest talking about World Eaters - only behind Eldar who got, justifiably, dunked on. MoE NEEDED to take a points nerf. Primarchs aren't intended to be an auto include option - marines have two and nobody takes them. World Eaters are going to be fine. Chin up.
The Guard rules changes for Voice of Command and clarifications for Stratagems concerning battleshocked units are really good. The points increase for the Manticore is absurd and looks like a last minute kneejerk change. Guard is like in the bottom 3 or 5 factions depending on the dataset one uses and there is a lot of room to tewak points to make the faction better, instead all we get is some kneejerk points increase for some okayish artillery that makes it more expensive than our MBTs or way better meta units from other factions. And the fact that all other indirect units, some of them having serious debuffs, were not touched at all shows that this was some last minute thing they felt the needed to put in for whatever reason.
Bit biased on the Templars there, even your mate gave you a sidways glance lol...Espcially after being so down for the world eater changes. BT are arguably the strongest army now up with Necrons. Thanks for the great content and congrats on Mr Lorah bringing if home for England!
I think you are underestimating how much these changes really hurt the World Eaters. You're acting like the advance and charge buff is consistently accessible forgetting that Favoured of Khorne was often needed to fish for that buff, not just for Angron returning. With less access to that, and all they're other nerfs, it's going to compound into bad situations more consistently. Even then, it still feels built around the chance of Angron coming back, but that chance has been reduced to such a degree that you might see it once every 2 games unless you build a list around it with the Lord of Skulls. While I don't think they'll be unplayable, I do think the nerfs went overboard and realistically, you'll see them drop to a 48-49% at best.
The army is niche, they just don't care. Effectively the army got nerfed due to the fact that any reasonable utility picks got nerfed. Nothing in exchange. Aggressors in Indomitor still hit on 4+ :D
True, considering alot of bt lists that arent heavy in vehicles in spearhead detatchment are going to also have inceptors, scouts, or agressors alot of bt lists just jumped at least 100 points. They act like templars are topping tournaments all the time
I'm pretty miffed as an Imperial Fists player running the Anvil Siege detachment that majority of my list got nerfed for the performance of other detachments. And punching the Whirlwind in the gut as badly as they did. Meanwhile, the Hammerfall Bunker is still unplayable.
I was hoping for some internal balance in the Eldar codex, but beggars can't be choosers! I wanted my 60 Black Guardian Ulthwe list to be a bit cheaper for competitive play, or a full aspect Biel Tann list. Nice to have a refresh on the cookie cutter list creation though :D Give Mephiston more options to join, let him replace a Judiciar in BGV etc. Sang guard please... make my golden boys cheap enough to use!
as an ork player, the squig nerf seemed a little bit much, but everything else is amazing, i especially love the kill rig nerf. Might want to finally pick up a battlewagon and killa kans aswell. I don't know how mozrog wasn't touched at all though, he's a steal at 195, one of the best ork units.
Bought the World Eater combat patrol, battleforce box and characters around Christmas, built it all and played 3 games just in time for GW to drop the hammer on the only usable units
Don’t listen to the all negativity. I won 90% of the death guard games I played, as a newbie player, back when everyone was crying rivers about how bad DG were and the number one DG player in the world was going undefeated. Put it this way. If you can have fun with your opponent, whether you win or not doesn’t matter. You having fun in spite of naysayers is the actual win
World Eaters will be definitely taking a bigger hit than was stated in the video just because everything WE exclusive got hit and the CSM spillover units are still bad. If there were more units to run than maybe it wouldn't be so bad but this is just a repeat of what happened to Custodes last balance dataslate.
Maulerfiends should have AP3. I'm alright with Forgefiends with the points drops. I *want* to take 2 Helbrutes, but man, they are not pulling their weight. I think the Demon Prince change should have just been "jakhal units instead gain a 5++" because that's the only reason they changed it. Nobody was taking 30+ Berzerkers except me. Haha
@@6PotatoesGamingMost of the CSM units can't pull their weight which sucks since that 2/3 of the army. I want to run 30+ zerkers but they are so bad that it's just a waste of points.
Its really unfortunate that Aggressors went up. I run Salamanders and I run the Flamer Aggressors and now they have been nerfed even though they weren't the issue, it was the combo with the bilogus and boltstorm gauntlets that was the issue. They should be two different data-sheets or they should have nerfed the bilogus.
This is a great video however the whole interaction feels super weird, like your asking each other questions that you both already know the answers too. Dno might just be me but it sounds a lot like a gw video 🤷♂️
As a Grey Knights player, I love the NDK updates. The rules clarification about adding models to the unit off the board is also incredibly nice, as it means there are no more doubts about Terminators using the narthecium to revive models off the board.
the overallrule changes are good but they should have been like what they are now. overall this won't do much though. the same problems exist still. and normal heavy weapons are a joke. idk why they didn't even give the psilencer something. it's pretty much the worst gun in the game
For me Tau: meh codex coming soon and points (for my current list) balanced out. Votann: yeah I wouldn't mind the increased points if we had more units to pick from.....not happy with it. Space marines: honestly I think they are fair considering what was hit with increases.
Still disappointed on my SM Chaplains in Terminator armor saves not working on Dev wounds. Makes the ability just not worth it. As a whole I think things adjusted were decent, but it's a living and breathing process and will be impactful until more Codex's hit.
The dark angels points don't apply to the codex release, they are still on the index datasheets! I expect there will be an update when the standalone codex drops, as it's not officially out yet.
Doesn't matter what they cost the DA data sheets at, they nerfed them to the point of being shat. Even the lion at 250 or even less still would not get played.
@@MrTumnus1987 oh no if only the upcoming codex wouldn’t be bad as mechanicum or dark angels one… new codex means nothing, chaos was always treated like this
this makes me very wary of the codex. GW has a history of hating on CSM. I wouldn't be surprised to see a garbage codex down the road with GW saying see we want this edition to be less Killy while still having a friggin ctan survive all and kill all lol@@PandaCool1
Eldar entire faction ability literally got halved, the entire thing that makes them not another flavour of space marines got reduced even further 😂 Not only that, but then in the meta watch they had the gall to say "We wanted to make it so every faction has more than one way to play. We don't want there to be auto take units every time because they are necessary for the army to be competitive". Well, taking eldrad increases your fate dice from 6 D6, to 9 D6. Essentially a 50% increase just on the army rule 😂Basically a compulsory take now, so dumb man 😂😂
? Why was there no mention of the Thousand Sons Demon Ally change? It's a major rework to A LOT of armies. Changeling is forced to take an extra 125 points; Changeling is a Lone Operative. Umm, okay?
GW hit their goals for selling eightbound and angron boxes. Thanks to everyone who bought in, see you when the codex comes out with 2 detachments at the most.
I don't think your right about Dark Angels. The codex is not out yet. It'll come out on saturday so technically this dataslate is only viable for 4 days. From Saturday on the codex is the latest release.
That's a fair and balanced take on admech, thanks for that one The only issue is that it's just so hard to be motivated to play the faction when the rules are just... what they currently are, playing objective while denying primary and only holding onto the hope that you'll outscore the opponent before they table you is just awful
That is literally what happened in my first game with the book vs Votann. I jumped out to an early lead, with a Skitari Cohort list and was headed for a tabling. We called it at the end of 4. He beat me by 30 points and that's with my list outscoring him for 2 full turns on Primary
I think it came across as really patronizing and tone-deaf of @VanguardTactics to say, "Go play games with your awful faction, maybe one day you'll generate enough data for GW to pay attention to you."
A little disappointed that Grimaldus gone up too high, but I can see why, I don't mind Helbrecht at 120 points and still a capable fighter with Sword Brethren. Although I'm surprised the Sword Brethren and Prinaris Crusaders remained the same so it's a positive, and can be good adjustement should I take Helbrecht and Emperor's Champion like how Stephen used during the LVO tournament and proud of you mate did us Black Templars proud!
This was a good listen. I put you guys on while driving, got through it all without stop. Fantastic work on the editing. I feel like that goes without credit a lot
I agree about Chaos Knights, this changes nothing, big knights are still overpriced and the Abominant is still completely useless. I feel like a better Army Rule would smooth things out so they didnt have to reduce points even more. If you could reliably get that -1 to hit or wound at least, that would be something, but the fact that you have to be on turn 3 for that to even happen, and on top of that having the opponent be battleshocked, which is 50/50 at best?, the army rules sucks. Giving them the new Death Guard army rule of -1 BS and WS while on the aura from turn 1 would have gone a big way to help the faction, make the aura 6" for dogs, and 9" for big knights and then increase the points a little bit on dogs and further drop a little on big knights and that should help a lot with variety. Imperial Knights still need bondsman back, this points drops MIGHT allow you to run an extra armiger at best, but most likely will be an extra unit to hold objectives or score, like the Callidus and now add an Eversor or Vindicare.
Love Jordan, fantastic guy! Fun and full of energy 🎉 Michaels a great dude when he can relax and enjoy the process. But seriously, someone give Stephen (there's your bloody H) a chill pill. He's a control freak with no chill. Im sure he's good at the game, but he sounds like an acchole. Stephen sounds like a middle manager with a power complex. Again, I'm sure he's good at what he does however that is no excuse for not treating people with respect.
For Tyranids, I am happy they didn't touch the exocrin's point costs, it is a linch pin that keeps the codex on life support since they utterly gutted Tyranofex and made Zoanthropes trash tier. I still believe that the pts decrease on the tyranofex is more of a slap in the face than anything else, the reason people were running them so much in the past wasn't related to the pts at all... it was *THE ONLY ANSWER* the entire CODEX had to certain heavy vehicles. Right now, the strat is sorta: *movement block the big dudes and abuse the crap out of lone operative so you DIE SLOW ENOUGH to maaaaaaybe win on score* In that spirit, I feel they should get their heads out of their asses and make tyranofex/Zoanthropes great again. The anti-vehicles situation in tyranids rn is unacceptable. Tyranofex did nuthin' wrong! Free my boi!
Thousand Sons not really affected by anything? The demon ally change is a HUGE nerf for a faction that was already struggling before... and now a lot of other armies got buffed...
Wolves player here. Don’t think you will see wulfen still. The OC 0 means they are only a trade unit and there far better units to spend your points on.
As a necron player I really wish they raised nightbringer/void dragon ctan 30 pts, wraiths 20 per 3 and dropped warriors 20 pts for 20 to 9 per model. They nerfed everyone and left necrons alone and after the win rate goes up we'll, be nerfed into oblivion. The next slate.... freaking GW sucks
Can anyone really balance a game like this?? (Or any other game similar)??? Diferring points, different stats, saving throws etc. Some say certain systems are fairly balanced. But is that because they win in those systems, or play inferior opponents? I think we all had games where we lose and start to question balance rather than our understanding of the rule set and/or army. Ultimately, dice are the major component and the randomness makes it interesting. (Yes, I have blamed many sets of dice for my errors, I mean poor run of luck)!!!
I have always been an advocate of a mechanized World Eaters list. I think that spamming Eightbound and praying you go 1st is a flawed plan. Also, it makes your opponent pop tanks to get to what is inside. That means that any anti infantry shooting they have is pretty much inconsequential for at least the first turn.
Wolves need more help. How decreasing points in battlelines help marines ? when other armies got buffs on strong units. Marines are losers of having so many units but only 5 of them being good.
Can someone confirm how the Nightspinner's new ability works? Here is the exact wording: "While a unit is pinned, subtract 2" from its Move characteristic and subtract 2 from Advance and Charge rolls made for it." Does this mean, if you advance and charge, you get a -6 penalty? minus 2 from the advance roll (the roll, not the move), minus 2 from the move characteristic, and -2 from the charge roll? Normally you increase your move characteristic with the advance roll, but you have to subtract 2 from the roll, and the move characteristic? That seems way too good. Am I missing something?
Yes, you substract 2" from your movement, if you advanced you substract 2" from the roll to advance, and then you substract 2" from your charge roll. I have no idea what GW was thinking about when they did this, this wasnt a nerf, but a buff most of the time. The thing is that Nightspinner didnt change your charge, it prevented you from advancing, sure, but had no impact on your charge. So it didnt affect units that only wanted to move forward and charge, now, it totally does. Its crazy, why would they add more stuff to their already strong rule? Right now it basically does the same thing as the Barbgaunts, but without the need of LoS and with more range.
Yes, _but_ a dice roll can never go below 1 by the rules, so there's that, at least for Advancing. If you roll a nat 1 to run, that part of the ability has no effect. Of course, by that point you rolled a nat 1 to run, so.
Been waiting on that Champions of Russ detachment change from the start. It was frustrating that you finally completed a saga in the first half, then another in the second half of a battle round and you couldn't keep both
Overall I am happy with the changes. I think this will encourage a lot more exciting aeldari lists as the index feels really unexplored and this will help.
People werent just using favoured of khorne to fish for angron - youd use it to smooth out bad rolls on your blessings too. Not getting advance and charge when you need it is crippling and favoured helps with that. I think you keep angron in lists because without him youve got nothing to stop agressive forward screening just punishing you heavily - having something with a huge movement +fly stops that happening, and hes STILL good.
You know that last year I won best Eldar player in the Uk and played them all last season? I love my Eldar army, but it’s certainly not fun to use at present.
Grey Knights should be okay into Necrons - don't forget the Grand Master has the same ignore modifiers rule as Trajann so the damage 2 force weapons with free Dev Wounds strat will drop C'tans with a quickness
Typhus being at 80 points makes him one of the most cost effective units in the roster for DG and maybe the game for his point cost. Crazy they reduced his cost but i'm happy haha
I do agree that the Blood Angel changes aren't enough to get us playing Sons over Gladius, however it is worth noting that the +2 Str does take a lot of units over key break points for wound rolls, expecially with the Lance/Lethal strat
We Necron players were just laughing when we saw the "changes". A lot of players were in panic because of LOV. I think pretty much everyone agrees that we were expecting at least a point nerf to the C'tan. It's still early days for the Necrons but there will be a big nerf coming up next, we all know that.
Was honestly surprised that the firstborn crusaders only went up 10 pts, i expected them to be at least 80 pts since tac marines are still 160 for their minimum 10 man. Helbrecht made sense, im sure in competitive not using RC its a bit hard to take advantage of his crits (his +1 S and mortals paired with a PSB squad upping his damage is still great value), and if not in an impulsor tossing in an LT/castellan for lethal hits is a nice way to get great use of the crits in other detachments, but normally means youre taking a land raider or repulsor for the seats. Grimaldus seemed way too much, seems like hes only really worth it for a 20 man crusader brick. With the command phase ability, might be worth sticking him into reserves so he cant be targeted before activating the abillity and when they walk on the board they have the ability activated on T2. Sad the whirlwind went up so much, i only just built mine (using a scorpous for it since it looks cooler imo), so hopefully i get to use it still. All the battleline intercessors going down is great, i love heavy ints (10 + apoth bio is a fun unit) so im happy ill get a few extra points out of that. Sternguard and infernus as well going down is enticing especially for firestorm infernus. Inceptors, aggressors, and scouts all going up too makes sense, still a lil bit of hurt for those lists that utilized them all though
Do you believe that GW may change the Watcher in the Dark to “4+ FNP against mortals and Dev wounds” as well? They feel so lackluster sometimes as well
World Eaters - Were exactly in the rules change do they clarify when Jugger Lord joins a units of infantry that Lord Invos ability still works? (I just cannot see it)
Im heavily disappointed by this slate as it was so light touch. I play nids and all the tyrants are insanely expensive for what they are and their strats are still totally broken.
I don't think indirect fire should be nerfed that bad.. it's part of the game. What's the point in having data sheets for models if they are costed so high that it makes them unusable. Indirect fire adds more to the game than it takes away. Honestly sometimes you guys sound like you are just fan boying... :/
I feel like you guys forgot the Lord of Skulls in the World Eaters review. Now when he's down to 450. There are plays where u bring two and angron. Almost guaranteed that angron will return. So a list with jackals and spawns to screen and score. And LoS to shoot down range. And angron to suicide charge every time just to come back due to LoS
I hope I can get away with running just one lord of skulls and the battleline units can get me some rerolls for the angron return. The ability to buy more lord of skulls is super challenging and expensive. Even more so with the changes.
I've played Guard at various events since the edition dropped; I've personally found the Manticore to be quite underwhelming - although it has re-rolls to hit it is very prone to not having enough shots to make an impact. With this in mind I think that 15pts probably would have been a fair increase. That said, I am truly baffled that the Basilisk has stayed quite so cheap and I will continue to use it liberally!
Drop a unit or 2 and get the manticores back . . . . . Idk from a army thats barely staying afloat, agree with the take on guard but thats pretty optimistic.
It's less "optimistic" and more that you kinda need the Manticore to perform a backline harrassment role that Guard can't really fulfill otherwise. It's a full nerf, mind you, and a full nerf that most competitive lists will eat on the teeth and move on anyway, because there really isn't any substitute for d6+1 BLAST shots at S10/AP-2/D3 anywhere on the field.
What are everyones thoughts on the changes? are you happy with them? or do you feel there are some missed opportunities, if so what are they?
Regretting having The Changeling commission painted for the Chaos Knights I'm putting together at the moment!
I can live with the increases to my Votann list, though Uthar and Beserks could have done with small drops I reckon.
Seeing as how guard have the 3rd lowest win rate and the only points changes they got were nerfs, i think its pretty hilarious. The order changes that you made such a big deal about being great were what we had before and they took it away for no reason, this is just giving us back what we had. Now withthe battle shock and reinforcement changes its for certain overall a nerf.
They completely over did the nerfs for csm.
Took away so much flavour in list building and hit somethings like 3 times. I get the points increases but coming Gw. They went completely overboard!
I like most of it. A bit unsure about the daemons though. I think they need to tweak the battleline units a little bit, point drops aren't quite enough. Also, taking Be'Lakor will be interesting now.
No changes for Necrons when they have a 56% winrate omegalul
GW lazily changed World Eaters and it shows
Astra militarum being mainly untouched is absolutely absurd. Drop some points on forgeworld unplayable units. 60 points for death rider commander is ridiculous. Malcadors should also drop in points. Marauders should drop in points. Death Korps engineers being missing for all of 10th is absurd. Wtf gw warhammer whatever you want to be called
"Alexa, play Let me down slowly remix... and turn the volume UP"
Also, 30 points isn't going to mean "maybe less manticores". I don't see how it can reasonably be taken at all when it costs as much as a russ.
And honestly I miss having fun artillery, especially when it's one of the only things that gets to use born soldiers. It's like a whole section of the army has been nerfed past being fun or competitive.
The d6+1 shots was allready bad. And the basilisk slows blobs aswell. The basilisk was allready better.@@sethbacon7490
@@sethbacon7490 The thing is, it gives a few shots at good strength and D3 _anywhere_ on the battlefield. It's not crushingly powerful in raw output, but for a faction without many ways to push _very_ aggressively and punish backlines, it's gold. Even at 180 points - its _role_ is just too important. And when an important role is filled by a unit that gets nerfed... well, you eat the nerf and keep going. You need that piece anyway.
Feels bad as a world eater bro.
I hear you.
I'm just your friendly neighborhood cannibal hive fleet (hydra)... but hearing what happened to that metal AF army makes me sad :(
"I think this was expected" re: AdMech - not to those of us who play the faction, it wasn't. We have plenty of data showing how bad the faction is. That's why nobody is playing the faction, and you'd think that nobody playing it would be a sign that it needs help.
Frankly, it comes off as really patronizing to say, "Go play games with your awful army so they can get data, so that maybe one day you can get a buff."
Not really, because the way GW is capturing army data, which has been on WarCom, is from win rates, not army participation. There are a number of armies, such as GSC and Drukhari, with small player bases but are performing different. Hence how GW justifies their method.
So, really VT telling you to play games is good advice. Forces GW to see what you see in your army.
@@MrGilmo88 Except Drukhari just got a brand new detachment. Admech is now easily the worst faction in the game. And even if you think a 4x% winrate is true and OK, you have to see that people HATE playing admech. It has an absolute tiny playersize and anyone who actually own the army will tell you its unfun, unthematic and a miserable experience to play with them.
GW will probably just give them a bone down the line (some army rule buff) but it's the worst codex in the past 10 years. Absolutely dead faction for the edition. The only thing saving Admech would be a complete rewrite starting with datasheets. But that's not gonna happen.
Hey to throw it in this chat, they are encouraging players to play because GW already know Admech is struggling and GW ain’t happy. This was mentioned by Liam stream. They want more data to make a concrete decision.
@@zarbonian if GW isn't happy (and I haven't seen any reason to think they're not), know who has the power to fix it? GW. Blaming the players is essentially scapegoating, if not full victim blaming.
@@Sparkyinbozo-xe9fn yeah you guys are taking things out of context here. Like I get it. Your faction hasn’t been touched and they really needed something but no one is scapegoating anyone. Gw is just now more helbent on making decisions based on more data, even if that data is clearly pointed one direction. It’s why Vanguard said what they said and the statement has been shared with other content creators. Now some creators are more outspoken but their honest opinion but again GW is aware and if they get more games recorded can consider doing a major overhaul all together.
Very happy to see the Tyrannofex go down in points!
And not an insignificant amount either. It's also good to see the screamer killer go down in points. But making the neurolictor cost the same as the deathleaper leaves a sour taste.
Wish the Psychophage, Hive Tyrants and Swarmlord go down as well.
@bbkenshin yeah especially the Psychophage should have had a points decrease, imho.
@@klompb The points drop is not a buff. When the Tyranid Codex was released, the Tyrannofex cost 190 pts without its -1D rule. GW simply made the Tyrannofex so expensive that it was no longer playable. So it's not a buff, but simply a correction of the adjustment after the codex.
Screamer Killer works great with the Neurolictor because it only has S10. We don't need more killing power for infantry, but ways to crack tanks. But since the Neurolictor became 15 pts expensive, the whole combo only costs 30 pts less if you take three SK and three Neurolictor.
I for one, welcome our Necron overlords.
Man they just took competitive world eaters out back and put it down violently.
We had like 4 usable units Angron, MoE+zerks, 8bound and ex8bpund and they all caught nerfs on what was already a glass cannon army.
Four usable units, as in, the entire army. GW needs to expand WE bad.
I hate how he glosses over like the WE nerfs were nothing, but he heavily disagrees with the Black Templars point increases
@@seeya20743 he legit tried to justify the WE nerfs too, sounds like he got Angroned to many times 😂
@@seeya20743WTF do you mean glossed over? They spent the second longest talking about World Eaters - only behind Eldar who got, justifiably, dunked on. MoE NEEDED to take a points nerf. Primarchs aren't intended to be an auto include option - marines have two and nobody takes them. World Eaters are going to be fine. Chin up.
They were one of the worst armies in the game before the nerf, 2 event wins all edition, does that sound like an army that needs a nerf?
The Drukhari changes got me excited to break them out again for the first time in 10th.
They done World Eaters dirty for no reason and it’s pissed me off royally.
Should have nerfed angeon
@@warp5p1d3r6he’s already 415 and pretty squishy,
So the butcher's nails are working.
Almost good, but their nail was sticking out just a little too much and got the hammer
Absolutely in character
The Guard rules changes for Voice of Command and clarifications for Stratagems concerning battleshocked units are really good.
The points increase for the Manticore is absurd and looks like a last minute kneejerk change.
Guard is like in the bottom 3 or 5 factions depending on the dataset one uses and there is a lot of room to tewak points to make the faction better, instead all we get is some kneejerk points increase for some okayish artillery that makes it more expensive than our MBTs or way better meta units from other factions.
And the fact that all other indirect units, some of them having serious debuffs, were not touched at all shows that this was some last minute thing they felt the needed to put in for whatever reason.
what you said at 10:45 is honestly kind of infuriating, why are you blaming the players of a faction for the faults of the company
They aren't. They are acknowledging the way the company operates and giving you an option to do something about it, for your army.
Bit biased on the Templars there, even your mate gave you a sidways glance lol...Espcially after being so down for the world eater changes. BT are arguably the strongest army now up with Necrons. Thanks for the great content and congrats on Mr Lorah bringing if home for England!
Someone got tabled by World Eaters too many times, by my reckoning!
Aeldari hurt bad but necrons untouched is questionable
So they switched off WE. What balance is that?
Sales. They hit their numbers for eightbound and Angron. They'll be turned on when the codex comes out, lol.
@@johnsmith-dn8kv Never have truer words been spoken. These updates are all ultimately driven by profit under the guise of balance.
@@johnsmith-dn8kv
And what about tyranids?
Norns and genestealers went down, theyre in the new christmas box
@@johnsmith-dn8kv amen. I wonder how players are still ok with that.
I think you are underestimating how much these changes really hurt the World Eaters. You're acting like the advance and charge buff is consistently accessible forgetting that Favoured of Khorne was often needed to fish for that buff, not just for Angron returning. With less access to that, and all they're other nerfs, it's going to compound into bad situations more consistently. Even then, it still feels built around the chance of Angron coming back, but that chance has been reduced to such a degree that you might see it once every 2 games unless you build a list around it with the Lord of Skulls. While I don't think they'll be unplayable, I do think the nerfs went overboard and realistically, you'll see them drop to a 48-49% at best.
What? They'll drop to basically where GW wants the armies balanced to? What a tragedy.
I can’t believe no points changes for the Deathwatch.
The army is niche, they just don't care. Effectively the army got nerfed due to the fact that any reasonable utility picks got nerfed. Nothing in exchange. Aggressors in Indomitor still hit on 4+ :D
+25 for helbrecht and Grimaldus is ridiculous. Great video guys. Thanks
To be frank tho, they went down last slate and they did not need to at all.
True, considering alot of bt lists that arent heavy in vehicles in spearhead detatchment are going to also have inceptors, scouts, or agressors alot of bt lists just jumped at least 100 points. They act like templars are topping tournaments all the time
I will still take hellbrecht though
I'm pretty miffed as an Imperial Fists player running the Anvil Siege detachment that majority of my list got nerfed for the performance of other detachments. And punching the Whirlwind in the gut as badly as they did.
Meanwhile, the Hammerfall Bunker is still unplayable.
I was hoping for some internal balance in the Eldar codex, but beggars can't be choosers! I wanted my 60 Black Guardian Ulthwe list to be a bit cheaper for competitive play, or a full aspect Biel Tann list. Nice to have a refresh on the cookie cutter list creation though :D
Give Mephiston more options to join, let him replace a Judiciar in BGV etc. Sang guard please... make my golden boys cheap enough to use!
Ad Mech needed a rules change. Their rules are just bad.
as an ork player, the squig nerf seemed a little bit much, but everything else is amazing, i especially love the kill rig nerf. Might want to finally pick up a battlewagon and killa kans aswell. I don't know how mozrog wasn't touched at all though, he's a steal at 195, one of the best ork units.
Ork Codex are comming soon, it might very well turn everything upside down
Bought the World Eater combat patrol, battleforce box and characters around Christmas, built it all and played 3 games just in time for GW to drop the hammer on the only usable units
Don’t listen to the all negativity. I won 90% of the death guard games I played, as a newbie player, back when everyone was crying rivers about how bad DG were and the number one DG player in the world was going undefeated.
Put it this way. If you can have fun with your opponent, whether you win or not doesn’t matter. You having fun in spite of naysayers is the actual win
World Eaters will be definitely taking a bigger hit than was stated in the video just because everything WE exclusive got hit and the CSM spillover units are still bad. If there were more units to run than maybe it wouldn't be so bad but this is just a repeat of what happened to Custodes last balance dataslate.
Maulerfiends should have AP3. I'm alright with Forgefiends with the points drops. I *want* to take 2 Helbrutes, but man, they are not pulling their weight. I think the Demon Prince change should have just been "jakhal units instead gain a 5++" because that's the only reason they changed it. Nobody was taking 30+ Berzerkers except me. Haha
@@6PotatoesGamingMost of the CSM units can't pull their weight which sucks since that 2/3 of the army. I want to run 30+ zerkers but they are so bad that it's just a waste of points.
Its really unfortunate that Aggressors went up. I run Salamanders and I run the Flamer Aggressors and now they have been nerfed even though they weren't the issue, it was the combo with the bilogus and boltstorm gauntlets that was the issue. They should be two different data-sheets or they should have nerfed the bilogus.
Power points is stupid
THIS BRO
I couldn't agree more
I don't like NDKs .I have 0 , wish GW rather fixed dreadnoughts, thunder hammers and regular psy canons.
Seriously. Just break out hammers from the other weapons. Fixed.
We need more old world content, look how many views it did 🎉
This is a great video however the whole interaction feels super weird, like your asking each other questions that you both already know the answers too. Dno might just be me but it sounds a lot like a gw video 🤷♂️
VT are basically GW employees at this point.
As a Grey Knights player, I love the NDK updates. The rules clarification about adding models to the unit off the board is also incredibly nice, as it means there are no more doubts about Terminators using the narthecium to revive models off the board.
the overallrule changes are good but they should have been like what they are now. overall this won't do much though. the same problems exist still. and normal heavy weapons are a joke. idk why they didn't even give the psilencer something. it's pretty much the worst gun in the game
Basically suggestive, it is they've ruined 10th edition. Can we go back to ninth?
I wish the edition was over already. 11th ed next summer! 😂
For me Tau: meh codex coming soon and points (for my current list) balanced out. Votann: yeah I wouldn't mind the increased points if we had more units to pick from.....not happy with it. Space marines: honestly I think they are fair considering what was hit with increases.
Still disappointed on my SM Chaplains in Terminator armor saves not working on Dev wounds. Makes the ability just not worth it.
As a whole I think things adjusted were decent, but it's a living and breathing process and will be impactful until more Codex's hit.
Chaplains overall just suck.😅
Agreed I think the custode fnp change should’ve applied to all mortal wound fnps
The dark angels points don't apply to the codex release, they are still on the index datasheets! I expect there will be an update when the standalone codex drops, as it's not officially out yet.
Doesn't matter what they cost the DA data sheets at, they nerfed them to the point of being shat. Even the lion at 250 or even less still would not get played.
CSM are strong faction? Really? They are done. They will struggle to maintain themselves at 50% winrate.
Oh no if only they had a codex about to drop in a couple of months….
@@MrTumnus1987 oh no if only the upcoming codex wouldn’t be bad as mechanicum or dark angels one… new codex means nothing, chaos was always treated like this
this makes me very wary of the codex. GW has a history of hating on CSM. I wouldn't be surprised to see a garbage codex down the road with GW saying see we want this edition to be less Killy while still having a friggin ctan survive all and kill all lol@@PandaCool1
CSM will kick SM any day in this ed. Broken crap’s what it is…😅
Eldar entire faction ability literally got halved, the entire thing that makes them not another flavour of space marines got reduced even further 😂
Not only that, but then in the meta watch they had the gall to say
"We wanted to make it so every faction has more than one way to play. We don't want there to be auto take units every time because they are necessary for the army to be competitive".
Well, taking eldrad increases your fate dice from 6 D6, to 9 D6. Essentially a 50% increase just on the army rule 😂Basically a compulsory take now, so dumb man 😂😂
Dang so they didn’t give silent king or any other triarch guys didn’t even get the keyword
? Why was there no mention of the Thousand Sons Demon Ally change? It's a major rework to A LOT of armies. Changeling is forced to take an extra 125 points; Changeling is a Lone Operative. Umm, okay?
GW hit their goals for selling eightbound and angron boxes. Thanks to everyone who bought in, see you when the codex comes out with 2 detachments at the most.
I don't think your right about Dark Angels. The codex is not out yet. It'll come out on saturday so technically this dataslate is only viable for 4 days. From Saturday on the codex is the latest release.
That's a fair and balanced take on admech, thanks for that one
The only issue is that it's just so hard to be motivated to play the faction when the rules are just... what they currently are, playing objective while denying primary and only holding onto the hope that you'll outscore the opponent before they table you is just awful
sounds like Nids too
That is literally what happened in my first game with the book vs Votann. I jumped out to an early lead, with a Skitari Cohort list and was headed for a tabling. We called it at the end of 4. He beat me by 30 points and that's with my list outscoring him for 2 full turns on Primary
I think it came across as really patronizing and tone-deaf of @VanguardTactics to say, "Go play games with your awful faction, maybe one day you'll generate enough data for GW to pay attention to you."
@@Sparkyinbozo-xe9fnIt's not tone deaf; it's understanding GW operations and a sad fact.
A little disappointed that Grimaldus gone up too high, but I can see why, I don't mind Helbrecht at 120 points and still a capable fighter with Sword Brethren. Although I'm surprised the Sword Brethren and Prinaris Crusaders remained the same so it's a positive, and can be good adjustement should I take Helbrecht and Emperor's Champion like how Stephen used during the LVO tournament and proud of you mate did us Black Templars proud!
This was a good listen. I put you guys on while driving, got through it all without stop. Fantastic work on the editing. I feel like that goes without credit a lot
I agree about Chaos Knights, this changes nothing, big knights are still overpriced and the Abominant is still completely useless. I feel like a better Army Rule would smooth things out so they didnt have to reduce points even more. If you could reliably get that -1 to hit or wound at least, that would be something, but the fact that you have to be on turn 3 for that to even happen, and on top of that having the opponent be battleshocked, which is 50/50 at best?, the army rules sucks. Giving them the new Death Guard army rule of -1 BS and WS while on the aura from turn 1 would have gone a big way to help the faction, make the aura 6" for dogs, and 9" for big knights and then increase the points a little bit on dogs and further drop a little on big knights and that should help a lot with variety.
Imperial Knights still need bondsman back, this points drops MIGHT allow you to run an extra armiger at best, but most likely will be an extra unit to hold objectives or score, like the Callidus and now add an Eversor or Vindicare.
Love Jordan, fantastic guy! Fun and full of energy 🎉
Michaels a great dude when he can relax and enjoy the process.
But seriously, someone give Stephen (there's your bloody H) a chill pill. He's a control freak with no chill. Im sure he's good at the game, but he sounds like an acchole.
Stephen sounds like a middle manager with a power complex. Again, I'm sure he's good at what he does however that is no excuse for not treating people with respect.
Wraithguard only move 6", not 7"
I hate devastating wounds. It's the meta hunt because there is nothing to defend against it. No strategems or abilities
Custodes 👀
Feel no pain
For Tyranids,
I am happy they didn't touch the exocrin's point costs, it is a linch pin that keeps the codex on life support since they utterly gutted Tyranofex and made Zoanthropes trash tier.
I still believe that the pts decrease on the tyranofex is more of a slap in the face than anything else, the reason people were running them so much in the past wasn't related to the pts at all... it was *THE ONLY ANSWER* the entire CODEX had to certain heavy vehicles.
Right now, the strat is sorta: *movement block the big dudes and abuse the crap out of lone operative so you DIE SLOW ENOUGH to maaaaaaybe win on score*
In that spirit, I feel they should get their heads out of their asses and make tyranofex/Zoanthropes great again.
The anti-vehicles situation in tyranids rn is unacceptable.
Tyranofex did nuthin' wrong! Free my boi!
Thousand Sons not really affected by anything? The demon ally change is a HUGE nerf for a faction that was already struggling before... and now a lot of other armies got buffed...
Most armies got nerfed, what are you talking about?
Wolves player here. Don’t think you will see wulfen still. The OC 0 means they are only a trade unit and there far better units to spend your points on.
As a necron player I really wish they raised nightbringer/void dragon ctan 30 pts, wraiths 20 per 3 and dropped warriors 20 pts for 20 to 9 per model. They nerfed everyone and left necrons alone and after the win rate goes up we'll, be nerfed into oblivion. The next slate.... freaking GW sucks
Can anyone really balance a game like this?? (Or any other game similar)??? Diferring points, different stats, saving throws etc. Some say certain systems are fairly balanced. But is that because they win in those systems, or play inferior opponents? I think we all had games where we lose and start to question balance rather than our understanding of the rule set and/or army.
Ultimately, dice are the major component and the randomness makes it interesting. (Yes, I have blamed many sets of dice for my errors, I mean poor run of luck)!!!
I have always been an advocate of a mechanized World Eaters list. I think that spamming Eightbound and praying you go 1st is a flawed plan.
Also, it makes your opponent pop tanks to get to what is inside. That means that any anti infantry shooting they have is pretty much inconsequential for at least the first turn.
Morty, welcome back to the list bud
If anything, it's too balanced. The competitive community turned 40k into a boring generic flavourless slog, gj.
Wolves need more help. How decreasing points in battlelines help marines ? when other armies got buffs on strong units. Marines are losers of having so many units but only 5 of them being good.
WHere is the Wulfen update?
Index data card update think they went to str 6 and dmg 2
Love the time stamps!!!
40k will never be balanced, it’s not in gw’s interest to make it balanced as that would diminish the need for a new rule set and accompanying codexs
wheres it say D2 for wulfen hammers?
Thorough review. Thanks. 🤙
It's kind of stupid for them to force you to take Eldrid and guardians when they suck for every reason other than to. Get fate dies.
Can someone confirm how the Nightspinner's new ability works? Here is the exact wording: "While a unit is pinned, subtract 2" from its Move characteristic and subtract 2 from Advance and Charge rolls made for it." Does this mean, if you advance and charge, you get a -6 penalty? minus 2 from the advance roll (the roll, not the move), minus 2 from the move characteristic, and -2 from the charge roll? Normally you increase your move characteristic with the advance roll, but you have to subtract 2 from the roll, and the move characteristic? That seems way too good. Am I missing something?
Yep that's what it does. The difference is now if it hits you you can at least advance while before the change you weren't allowed to advance at all.
Yes, you substract 2" from your movement, if you advanced you substract 2" from the roll to advance, and then you substract 2" from your charge roll.
I have no idea what GW was thinking about when they did this, this wasnt a nerf, but a buff most of the time. The thing is that Nightspinner didnt change your charge, it prevented you from advancing, sure, but had no impact on your charge. So it didnt affect units that only wanted to move forward and charge, now, it totally does. Its crazy, why would they add more stuff to their already strong rule?
Right now it basically does the same thing as the Barbgaunts, but without the need of LoS and with more range.
But only if that one weapon hits and at a high points cost compared to buggy barbs that have more guns for the squad.
Yes, _but_ a dice roll can never go below 1 by the rules, so there's that, at least for Advancing. If you roll a nat 1 to run, that part of the ability has no effect. Of course, by that point you rolled a nat 1 to run, so.
Like your first point says indirect fire but nightspinners will still see play cause they are still better than any Whirlwind or Manticore…
Been waiting on that Champions of Russ detachment change from the start. It was frustrating that you finally completed a saga in the first half, then another in the second half of a battle round and you couldn't keep both
Deathwatch just need more mainstream traction so we can finally be put on GWs auspex arrays
It will never be balanced. It is just a ploy to shift the meta and drive players to buy new minis.
Overall I am happy with the changes. I think this will encourage a lot more exciting aeldari lists as the index feels really unexplored and this will help.
Custodies being so tier again means you can't run any other combat army as they easily wipe any other cc army
Oi GW, leave my indirect Guard artillery alone ya buggers! 😠
People werent just using favoured of khorne to fish for angron - youd use it to smooth out bad rolls on your blessings too. Not getting advance and charge when you need it is crippling and favoured helps with that.
I think you keep angron in lists because without him youve got nothing to stop agressive forward screening just punishing you heavily - having something with a huge movement +fly stops that happening, and hes STILL good.
The last thing we needed was a point Increase on Grey Knights. wtf
No indirect, not lone operative? Bland or fair?
custodes 3x5 guard and 3x5 wardens is about to pop off
This channel -- "yeah, right, fuck the Eldar. Phantasm this, phantasm that. Blah blah." Don't even try to stay any sort of neutral. 😂
You know that last year I won best Eldar player in the Uk and played them all last season? I love my Eldar army, but it’s certainly not fun to use at present.
Grey Knights should be okay into Necrons - don't forget the Grand Master has the same ignore modifiers rule as Trajann so the damage 2 force weapons with free Dev Wounds strat will drop C'tans with a quickness
Typhus being at 80 points makes him one of the most cost effective units in the roster for DG and maybe the game for his point cost. Crazy they reduced his cost but i'm happy haha
Wulfen have been added into my current list. Definitely worth giving them a go.
Outstanding work fellas 🙌🏻
I do agree that the Blood Angel changes aren't enough to get us playing Sons over Gladius, however it is worth noting that the +2 Str does take a lot of units over key break points for wound rolls, expecially with the Lance/Lethal strat
We Necron players were just laughing when we saw the "changes". A lot of players were in panic because of LOV. I think pretty much everyone agrees that we were expecting at least a point nerf to the C'tan. It's still early days for the Necrons but there will be a big nerf coming up next, we all know that.
Was honestly surprised that the firstborn crusaders only went up 10 pts, i expected them to be at least 80 pts since tac marines are still 160 for their minimum 10 man.
Helbrecht made sense, im sure in competitive not using RC its a bit hard to take advantage of his crits (his +1 S and mortals paired with a PSB squad upping his damage is still great value), and if not in an impulsor tossing in an LT/castellan for lethal hits is a nice way to get great use of the crits in other detachments, but normally means youre taking a land raider or repulsor for the seats.
Grimaldus seemed way too much, seems like hes only really worth it for a 20 man crusader brick. With the command phase ability, might be worth sticking him into reserves so he cant be targeted before activating the abillity and when they walk on the board they have the ability activated on T2.
Sad the whirlwind went up so much, i only just built mine (using a scorpous for it since it looks cooler imo), so hopefully i get to use it still. All the battleline intercessors going down is great, i love heavy ints (10 + apoth bio is a fun unit) so im happy ill get a few extra points out of that. Sternguard and infernus as well going down is enticing especially for firestorm infernus. Inceptors, aggressors, and scouts all going up too makes sense, still a lil bit of hurt for those lists that utilized them all though
The amount of voice cracks in this is insane
Do you believe that GW may change the Watcher in the Dark to “4+ FNP against mortals and Dev wounds” as well? They feel so lackluster sometimes as well
World Eaters - Were exactly in the rules change do they clarify when Jugger Lord joins a units of infantry that Lord Invos ability still works? (I just cannot see it)
when are the changes coming to the wh 40k app?
Update the app
Orks win rate will not go up, I think, orks are gonna have realy tough match up against Custodes, Nerons, GK, Deathguard
Im heavily disappointed by this slate as it was so light touch. I play nids and all the tyrants are insanely expensive for what they are and their strats are still totally broken.
Man the decrease in points for knights feel ok. But honestly, i just wanted bondsman back to being a real rule
I don't think indirect fire should be nerfed that bad.. it's part of the game. What's the point in having data sheets for models if they are costed so high that it makes them unusable. Indirect fire adds more to the game than it takes away. Honestly sometimes you guys sound like you are just fan boying... :/
Where is that buff to the Wulfen hammers? please tell me it´s true. If that was a joke, my day is ruined
I don’t like 10th edition.
I feel like you guys forgot the Lord of Skulls in the World Eaters review. Now when he's down to 450. There are plays where u bring two and angron. Almost guaranteed that angron will return.
So a list with jackals and spawns to screen and score. And LoS to shoot down range. And angron to suicide charge every time just to come back due to LoS
I hope I can get away with running just one lord of skulls and the battleline units can get me some rerolls for the angron return. The ability to buy more lord of skulls is super challenging and expensive. Even more so with the changes.
With non universal rules and rules layering? No.
Already made a list with morty and 3 plague burst crawlers lol 😂
I've played Guard at various events since the edition dropped; I've personally found the Manticore to be quite underwhelming - although it has re-rolls to hit it is very prone to not having enough shots to make an impact. With this in mind I think that 15pts probably would have been a fair increase.
That said, I am truly baffled that the Basilisk has stayed quite so cheap and I will continue to use it liberally!
The Basilisk is powerfully mediocre, when considering its damage profile. The ability is where it truly shines.
Manticore was the most effective indirect are u kiddin me? 😂
Where abouts is the wulfen change? I can't find it
Drop a unit or 2 and get the manticores back . . . . . Idk from a army thats barely staying afloat, agree with the take on guard but thats pretty optimistic.
It's less "optimistic" and more that you kinda need the Manticore to perform a backline harrassment role that Guard can't really fulfill otherwise. It's a full nerf, mind you, and a full nerf that most competitive lists will eat on the teeth and move on anyway, because there really isn't any substitute for d6+1 BLAST shots at S10/AP-2/D3 anywhere on the field.
Wait wait, so they decreased cost across battle line infantry and increased the cost for anti infantry/blast tech? Real subtle.
Kinda required in edition of endless vehicle spam…