I really appreciate this one, because it had been bothering me for several months. I had not been able to be fully satisfied with David Bentley Hart’s explanation that Jesus was simply using a common idiomatic expression, exaggeration, like plucking out our eyes and cutting off our hands. It never sat right with me. This explanation is simple and brilliant. God bless you!
Out of curiosity, have you watched Total Victory of Christ? I've been compiling a paper to argue against the false doctrine of eternal punishment because learning the truth (that God doesn't endlessly punish people) opened my and my friends heart to Christ. God bless.
@@kjhgfdfghjkdrtyuiwewe I’ve watched some. I need to watch more. From what I’ve seen, many good points! Thank you for sharing your story! I hope the message of universal reconciliation will open more and more hearts to the gospel! It’s good news!
@@orthodoxuniversalist Indeed Michael (I think that’s his name) makes good points and scriptural arguments. Personally I’m greatly helped by both your channels, and the likes of Robin Perry, David Bentley Hart Michael Heiser and so on.
Look at the Greek. "It would have been better if he had not been born that man." He's just saying Judas would have been better off being born someone else.
My favorite concept album is The Seraphic Clockwork by Vanden Plas. It's about a wrong timeline of Judas not betraying Jesus and the diabolical future that happens.
Great video as always. Thank you. I don't know if you think this needs to be covered in regards to Universalism but I'm curious as to what you think of Once Saved Always Saved as it pertains to this life.
How do we square the passages where Jesus says "Depart from me I NEVER knew you" with the passages that say "from before I formed you in the womb I knew you."
What's the only thing an omniscient being doesn't know? A lie. That's exactly what you are when you are still your old self. Your father is still Satan (the father of lies). You still need to be made new. The one God always knew.
Who we are in our trespasses and sins is not the person God had in mind when he created us. God will make us in His image because we were created in Love and Love never fails. That process will include judgement and punishment but it will be restorative (kolasis) and not retributive (timoria).
Total Victory of Christ channel's answer to this is that "Depart from me" means it's time for you to go to school. Brimstone means sulfur. Sulfur is actually used to purify substances. It kills bacteria and gets rid of contaminants. Even in the human body, sulfur in certain quantities helps your immune system.
I guess one of the things that stumps me with universalism is the passages that say he will save many or a ransom that will pay for many, can you help me with that?
@orthodoxuniversalist you respect it ? If it's true that universalism would be a problem. Because I have a brother who is a annihalilist and want him to be a universalist
I agree with you that Christ uses a lot of hyperbole. I have not cut off any limbs lately. However, how do you interpret Luke 12:46-48? Mark 9:43? I still believe Universalism is within the realm of possibility (Hell could be empty of human souls) because of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is possible to all because the Atonement is unlimited. Redemption has been offered to all but the individual must repent and accept the offer of salvation and abide in salvation (Christ maintains and gives us operative grace that we may freely abide) to the end in order for the gift to be effectual in one's life, correct? How do you define a gift? What happens if you reject or neglect a gift?
@20:02 Still not sure what to think about this analogy. I do hold to post-mortem sanctification of the souls of the elect prior to heaven if these saved souls are in need of final sanctification. Some are not in need of such a final sanctification such as St. Dismas. I do believe in both eternal (Hell) and temporal punishment (Purgatory) but the eternal punishment (Hell) could be empty.
Some people use this to affirm their belief that suicide leads to hell. What are your opinions on Christians who commit suicide? Is it a one-way ticket to hell like some say?
Another good verse for "not born" not being the same as not existing (especially for this passage) is Ecclesiastes 6:3 : If a man begets a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with goodness, or indeed he has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better than he
@@christianuniversalistDespair is a loss of hope. Killing himself doesn’t demonstrate at all that he placed his trust in God to get past this. He was remorseful for certain.
@mikehutchinson4826 “Despair is a loss of hope”. -So is a lack of faith. “Killing himself doesn’t demonstrate at all that he placed his trust in God to get past this.” -That’s reading into the text something that isn’t explicitly there. People who believe in God do a lot of things out of despair. Paul said that God himself shut up everyone in obstinacy so that he may have mercy on all. Overeating is as much suicide as is hanging oneself, it’s only the speed that is different.
@@christianuniversalistGonna just say this is obvious from phenomenology that overeating isn’t the same as hanging yourself. That’s manifestly ridiculous, as what motivates the two are often very different. The same with the impact they leave.
Can you also help discover Gnosticism ? It said Satan (Demiurge) took the role of God YHWH and trolling humans at Old Testimant Do you think it is heresy ? Why is it wrong or illogical in the lens of christian universalism.
It 100% would be heresy. If the God of the Old Testament was not the God of the New Testament also then Jesus could not be the Messiah. The scriptures and prophecies and worldview behind Jesus’ message is rooted in the Old Testament. Yes, there is a new covenant, but the validity of the Old Testament is assumed and used to build upon for His new covenant. If the Old Testament’s God was Satan, then the whole continuity of the gospel falls apart. It was condemned in the second century when this idea came up under the name of Marcionism, and rightfully so.
@samueljennings4809 That's one good point. But a lot of people still think Gnosticism is true. Is it explaining the OT God being morally questionable in Hunan sense The comment section of Video, like Genesis in lens of Gnosticism and Moses life in lens of Gnosticism, have a lot of people believing that the creator God is a Malevolent Jerk Can you prove to them more why Gnosticism is heresy ?
Jesus literally claimed to be the God of the Old Testament, not only is Gnosticism heresy, it’s clear that all streams of Gnostic thought do not understand the Old Testament at all.
@@Crimsonlupus The elect's faith is from God (Eph 6:23 kjv), (Rom 12:3 kjv). It's fruit of the Spirit of God (Gal 5:22 kjv). It does not originate from within or out of themselves. In contrast - the "natural man" believes whatever the "spirit of the world" leads him to believe - which is always a distortion of the truth. The Bible speaks of the devil, and satan, that deceived the whole world. Scripture says those born of the flesh persecute those born of the Spirit (Gal 4:28). There are only two groups in the Bible. All men are "by nature" children of wrath coming into this world. That doesn't mean they are simply sinners deserving of wrath - b/c believers are sinners too. It means they are UNBELIEVING sinners. the mind of those "born of the flesh" is enmity against God (Rom 8:7-9 kjv). Those "born of the Spirit" - have been made alive Spiritually - they have been quickened - they have been regenerated (Titus 3:5 kjv). That's why they believe - that's why they understand - that's why they seek after God. God makes the difference - not them! Men left to themselves do not understand, or seek after God. So how does this all end ? "vessels of mercy" and "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:20-24 kjv). Universalists don't like it - but that's what the Bible teaches.
People always forget Jesus said himself “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” ESV. Just as God used the moral failure of Joseph’s brothers to ultimately bring about salvation for the family, God used Judas’s moral failure ti bring about salvation for everyone. You make a good point.
Please don’t say it like that. You’re disrespecting the apostles who went to the ends of the known world to spread the gospel and be martyred for the faith. Judas doesn’t hold a candle light to them.
Mark 9:42-45 clv 42 "And whosoever should be snaring one of these little ones who are believing in Me, ideal is it for him rather if a millstone requiring an ass to turn it were lying about his neck and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if your hand should ever be snaring you, strike it off. It is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed, rather than, having two hands, to come away into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire 44 where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out. 45 And if your foot should be snaring you, strike it off. For it is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, rather than, having two feet, to be cast into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire, John 3:36 kjv He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. "shall not see life" Did Judas believe on the Son ? There were Jews who had believed in Jesus (John 8:31) who Jesus said were of their father the devil. There are "children of God" and "children of the devil". Nowhere does the Bible say all are the "children of God".
"shall not see life" doesn't mean they never will. Even on your own belief system people don't believe before they come to believe. So both you and the majority of Christian universalists agree that eternal life is only achieved upon belief. I'm guessing the only difference is that you believe there is a deadline of physical death. I believe everyone being children of God comes from Acts 17. I'm sure you'd say that is in a different sense, but being a child of God or Satan is the same as belief/unbelief or old-self/new-self. Again it doesn't mean you don't move from one to the other. All of us were among them at one time after all. Satan is the father of lies, that is what your old self is, your new self is who you truly are. And God will make all things new.
@@devindaniels1379 you: ""shall not see life" doesn't mean they never will." shall not - means shall not - unless you are a universalist - then it means shall ;)
you: "Even on your own belief system people don't believe before they come to believe."
According to Paul - only those who were chosen before the foundation will come to faith. They are the only ones "called", "justified", and "glorified" (Rom 8:30). you said: "So both you and the majority of Christian universalists agree that eternal life is only achieved upon belief."
There are plenty of verses that speak of people believing in this life. Universalists have "0" that say all of humanity (past, present, future) will believe after they die. Did i mention "0" ? you: "I'm guessing the only difference is that you believe there is a deadline of physical death." Yes, when a person dies - that is the DEADline except for the elect. you: "I believe everyone being children of God comes from Acts 17. I'm sure you'd say that is in a different sense, but being a child of God or Satan is the same as belief/unbelief or old-self/new-self." If the risen Christ had revealed to Paul that all are "children of God" then i would believe it. But He didn't.
you: "Again it doesn't mean you don't move from one to the other."
Only the elect are quickened from death to life. you: "All of us were among them at one time after all." The elect were "by nature" children of wrath - their fallen nature was just like the rest. Paul NEVER says the elect were "children of the devil". Before God shined into their heart - they were blinded by the devil - but Paul never says they were "children of the devil". The elect were never appointed to wrath.
you: "Satan is the father of lies, that is what your old self is, your new self is who you truly are. And God will make all things new. Only the elect are a new creation in Christ Jesus. You are living in fantasy land if you think all are in Christ and a new creation. What Paul says in Eph Ch 1 - pertains to the elect - not all of humanity. What Paul says in Romans 8:35-39 applies to the elect - not all of humanity.
So, "shall not see" means "shall not see", but people in an unbelieving state will come to faith if they are part of the elect? So that person that currently doesn't believe and, therefore, "shall not see" - still ends up seeing. It doesn't matter how you phrase it, you still agree that "shall not see" is not a permanent state for anyone that ends up believing later on.
@@devindaniels1379 you said: "So, "shall not see" means "shall not see", but people in an unbelieving state will come to faith if they are part of the elect?" Yes, the elect are not appointed to wrath. The unbelieving "shall not see life". That's what the Bible teaches. you: "So that person that currently doesn't believe and, therefore, "shall not see" - still ends up seeing. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the elect "shall not see life". Nice try The elect stand on what the Word says and don't play word games in an attempt to MANipulate the text - and make it say what they want it to mean! you: "It doesn't matter how you phrase it, you still agree that "shall not see" is not a permanent state for anyone that ends up believing later on." Nowhere in the Bible does it say the elect "shall not see life". Nowhere in the Bible does it say all of humanity (past, present, future) is saved - and will see life.
All your verse says is the one not believing will not see life. You keep importing your concept of election into it. So I'll try a direct question to see where I'm losing you. Someone currently doesn't believe, can we say anything about whether or not they will see life? Please note that needing any further information about said person (i.e. whether or not they are elect) is going beyond anything in your verse.
The "him" and "that man" is not the same person as the "he" in both passages. Him, that man, i.e. the Son of man. He, i.e. Judas. It would have been better for the Son of man if Judas had not been born.
Why would believing that God is the most merciful God conceivable something I should defend to God? If I'm wrong, I see no reason to think God will view me harshly for believing He is capable and willing to reconcile all of mankind, and I know God knows my heart well enough to know that my belief is based in faith and love for Him. It's honestly silly to me when ECT believers act like, if your theology isn't 100% correct, you're hell-bound. God help the Calvinists if free will is true, or they're going to suffer forever, right? Oops, you believed the Garden of Eden was literal when it was actually metaphorical? Enjoy eternal torture, sinner! Like, it's so obviously ridiculous that I don't know why I'm bothering writing this.
We have seen the judgement of God on the Cross (Father forgive them they know not what they do). Sin has been forgiven and Death defeated and the Spirit and the Bride call all to live in this reality. God will make Mankind in his image, it will not happen in this age but it will come to pass. Colossians 1v15-20. Grace and Peace
Top notch argument! Great job, sir 🙌
I have to say you do an awesome job clarifying what a lot of us already know to be true. Thanks. New sub here
I really appreciate this one, because it had been bothering me for several months. I had not been able to be fully satisfied with David Bentley Hart’s explanation that Jesus was simply using a common idiomatic expression, exaggeration, like plucking out our eyes and cutting off our hands. It never sat right with me. This explanation is simple and brilliant. God bless you!
Out of curiosity, have you watched Total Victory of Christ? I've been compiling a paper to argue against the false doctrine of eternal punishment because learning the truth (that God doesn't endlessly punish people) opened my and my friends heart to Christ. God bless.
@@kjhgfdfghjkdrtyuiwewe I’ve watched some. I need to watch more. From what I’ve seen, many good points!
Thank you for sharing your story! I hope the message of universal reconciliation will open more and more hearts to the gospel! It’s good news!
@@orthodoxuniversalist it sure is! Highly recommend Total victory of Christ's video series on "AION" and his Lake of fire series
@@orthodoxuniversalist Indeed Michael (I think that’s his name) makes good points and scriptural arguments. Personally I’m greatly helped by both your channels, and the likes of Robin Perry, David Bentley Hart Michael Heiser and so on.
Godspeed bro, Maranatha❤❤❤❤❤
I like your reasoning abilities. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. God is worthy of our adoration and praise continuously.
Yessir, another fantastic video. I appreciate all you share!
An excellent explanation once again. Thanks.
Excellent, thank you!!
Great video! Keep up the good content!
Look at the Greek. "It would have been better if he had not been born that man."
He's just saying Judas would have been better off being born someone else.
Is there a meaningful distinction between those two things?
My favorite concept album is The Seraphic Clockwork by Vanden Plas. It's about a wrong timeline of Judas not betraying Jesus and the diabolical future that happens.
Great video as always. Thank you. I don't know if you think this needs to be covered in regards to Universalism but I'm curious as to what you think of Once Saved Always Saved as it pertains to this life.
Read Ezekiel chapter 18; it blows the doctrine of eternal security out of the water.
How do we square the passages where Jesus says "Depart from me I NEVER knew you" with the passages that say "from before I formed you in the womb I knew you."
What's the only thing an omniscient being doesn't know? A lie. That's exactly what you are when you are still your old self. Your father is still Satan (the father of lies).
You still need to be made new. The one God always knew.
Who we are in our trespasses and sins is not the person God had in mind when he created us. God will make us in His image because we were created in Love and Love never fails. That process will include judgement and punishment but it will be restorative (kolasis) and not retributive (timoria).
There’s nothing to explain, they will be separated from God. This isn’t for forever though. That’s a possibility but not one claimed by scripture.
God never knew the sinner,or false self, for it is a fiction. God only knows truth.
Total Victory of Christ channel's answer to this is that "Depart from me" means it's time for you to go to school.
Brimstone means sulfur. Sulfur is actually used to purify substances. It kills bacteria and gets rid of contaminants.
Even in the human body, sulfur in certain quantities helps your immune system.
I guess one of the things that stumps me with universalism is the passages that say he will save many or a ransom that will pay for many, can you help me with that?
Jesus is how universalism is accomplished. He is the savior of all men. He saved all from sin and death.
Many can be used as a synonym for all. Read Romans 5v12-21.
Do you have a video on rejection of annilhalism?
I don’t. I mention it in a few videos but right now I respect it too much as a position to feel comfortable making a video about its flaws.
@orthodoxuniversalist you respect it ? If it's true that universalism would be a problem.
Because I have a brother who is a annihalilist and want him to be a universalist
I agree with you that Christ uses a lot of hyperbole. I have not cut off any limbs lately. However, how do you interpret Luke 12:46-48? Mark 9:43?
I still believe Universalism is within the realm of possibility (Hell could be empty of human souls) because of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is possible to all because the Atonement is unlimited. Redemption has been offered to all but the individual must repent and accept the offer of salvation and abide in salvation (Christ maintains and gives us operative grace that we may freely abide) to the end in order for the gift to be effectual in one's life, correct? How do you define a gift? What happens if you reject or neglect a gift?
@20:02 Still not sure what to think about this analogy. I do hold to post-mortem sanctification of the souls of the elect prior to heaven if these saved souls are in need of final sanctification. Some are not in need of such a final sanctification such as St. Dismas. I do believe in both eternal (Hell) and temporal punishment (Purgatory) but the eternal punishment (Hell) could be empty.
Some people use this to affirm their belief that suicide leads to hell.
What are your opinions on Christians who commit suicide? Is it a one-way ticket to hell like some say?
Another good verse for "not born" not being the same as not existing (especially for this passage) is Ecclesiastes 6:3 :
If a man begets a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with goodness, or indeed he has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better than he
Sergei Bulgakov wrote an excellent work on Judas entitled ‘Judas Iscariot - Apostle-Betrayer’
HIGHLY RECOMMEND
I disagree with Bulgakov’s assessment that the gospels portray Judas as repenting. That type of despair is not repentance.
@mikehutchinson4826
“That type of despair is not repentance.”
Says who?
@@christianuniversalistDespair is a loss of hope. Killing himself doesn’t demonstrate at all that he placed his trust in God to get past this. He was remorseful for certain.
@mikehutchinson4826
“Despair is a loss of hope”.
-So is a lack of faith.
“Killing himself doesn’t demonstrate at all that he placed his trust in God to get past this.”
-That’s reading into the text something that isn’t explicitly there. People who believe in God do a lot of things out of despair. Paul said that God himself shut up everyone in obstinacy so that he may have mercy on all. Overeating is as much suicide as is hanging oneself, it’s only the speed that is different.
@@christianuniversalistGonna just say this is obvious from phenomenology that overeating isn’t the same as hanging yourself. That’s manifestly ridiculous, as what motivates the two are often very different. The same with the impact they leave.
Can you also help discover Gnosticism ? It said Satan (Demiurge) took the role of God YHWH and trolling humans at Old Testimant
Do you think it is heresy ? Why is it wrong or illogical in the lens of christian universalism.
It 100% would be heresy. If the God of the Old Testament was not the God of the New Testament also then Jesus could not be the Messiah.
The scriptures and prophecies and worldview behind Jesus’ message is rooted in the Old Testament. Yes, there is a new covenant, but the validity of the Old Testament is assumed and used to build upon for His new covenant. If the Old Testament’s God was Satan, then the whole continuity of the gospel falls apart.
It was condemned in the second century when this idea came up under the name of Marcionism, and rightfully so.
@samueljennings4809
That's one good point. But a lot of people still think Gnosticism is true. Is it explaining the OT God being morally questionable in Hunan sense
The comment section of Video, like Genesis in lens of Gnosticism and Moses life in lens of Gnosticism, have a lot of people believing that the creator God is a Malevolent Jerk
Can you prove to them more why Gnosticism is heresy ?
@samueljennings4809 I mean the video made by Parry Megistus
Jesus literally claimed to be the God of the Old Testament, not only is Gnosticism heresy, it’s clear that all streams of Gnostic thought do not understand the Old Testament at all.
Judas was the greatest apostle, without him the process wouldn't have happened the way it did. God is the savior of all!
That sentence feels so wrong but yeah if you look at it that way 😅
@@Crimsonlupus The elect's faith is from God (Eph 6:23 kjv), (Rom 12:3 kjv). It's fruit of the Spirit of God (Gal 5:22 kjv). It does not originate from within or out of themselves.
In contrast - the "natural man" believes whatever the "spirit of the world" leads him to believe - which is always a distortion of the truth. The Bible speaks of the devil, and satan, that deceived the whole world.
Scripture says those born of the flesh persecute those born of the Spirit (Gal 4:28). There are only two groups in the Bible.
All men are "by nature" children of wrath coming into this world. That doesn't mean they are simply sinners deserving of wrath - b/c believers are sinners too. It means they are UNBELIEVING sinners. the mind of those "born of the flesh" is enmity against God (Rom 8:7-9 kjv).
Those "born of the Spirit" - have been made alive Spiritually - they have been quickened - they have been regenerated (Titus 3:5 kjv). That's why they believe - that's why they understand - that's why they seek after God. God makes the difference - not them! Men left to themselves do not understand, or seek after God.
So how does this all end ? "vessels of mercy" and "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:20-24 kjv).
Universalists don't like it - but that's what the Bible teaches.
@@Crimsonlupus lol right I know what you mean.
People always forget Jesus said himself “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” ESV.
Just as God used the moral failure of Joseph’s brothers to ultimately bring about salvation for the family, God used Judas’s moral failure ti bring about salvation for everyone. You make a good point.
Please don’t say it like that. You’re disrespecting the apostles who went to the ends of the known world to spread the gospel and be martyred for the faith. Judas doesn’t hold a candle light to them.
Mark 9:42-45 clv
42 "And whosoever should be snaring one of these little ones who are believing in Me, ideal is it for him rather if a millstone requiring an ass to turn it were lying about his neck and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if your hand should ever be snaring you, strike it off. It is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed, rather than, having two hands, to come away into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire
44 where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out.
45 And if your foot should be snaring you, strike it off. For it is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, rather than, having two feet, to be cast into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire,
John 3:36 kjv
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
"shall not see life"
Did Judas believe on the Son ? There were Jews who had believed in Jesus (John 8:31) who Jesus said were of their father the devil. There are "children of God" and "children of the devil". Nowhere does the Bible say all are the "children of God".
"shall not see life" doesn't mean they never will. Even on your own belief system people don't believe before they come to believe. So both you and the majority of Christian universalists agree that eternal life is only achieved upon belief. I'm guessing the only difference is that you believe there is a deadline of physical death.
I believe everyone being children of God comes from Acts 17. I'm sure you'd say that is in a different sense, but being a child of God or Satan is the same as belief/unbelief or old-self/new-self. Again it doesn't mean you don't move from one to the other. All of us were among them at one time after all. Satan is the father of lies, that is what your old self is, your new self is who you truly are. And God will make all things new.
@@devindaniels1379
you: ""shall not see life" doesn't mean they never will."
shall not - means shall not - unless you are a universalist - then it means shall ;)
you: "Even on your own belief system people don't believe before they come to believe."
According to Paul - only those who were chosen before the foundation will come to faith. They are the only ones "called", "justified", and "glorified" (Rom 8:30).
you said: "So both you and the majority of Christian universalists agree that eternal life is only achieved upon belief."
There are plenty of verses that speak of people believing in this life. Universalists have "0" that say all of humanity (past, present, future) will believe after they die. Did i mention "0" ?
you: "I'm guessing the only difference is that you believe there is a deadline of physical death."
Yes, when a person dies - that is the DEADline except for the elect.
you: "I believe everyone being children of God comes from Acts 17. I'm sure you'd say that is in a different sense, but being a child of God or Satan is the same as belief/unbelief or old-self/new-self."
If the risen Christ had revealed to Paul that all are "children of God" then i would believe it. But He didn't.
you: "Again it doesn't mean you don't move from one to the other."
Only the elect are quickened from death to life.
you: "All of us were among them at one time after all."
The elect were "by nature" children of wrath - their fallen nature was just like the rest. Paul NEVER says the elect were "children of the devil". Before God shined into their heart - they were blinded by the devil - but Paul never says they were "children of the devil". The elect were never appointed to wrath.
you: "Satan is the father of lies, that is what your old self is, your new self is who you truly are. And God will make all things new.
Only the elect are a new creation in Christ Jesus. You are living in fantasy land if you think all are in Christ and a new creation. What Paul says in Eph Ch 1 - pertains to the elect - not all of humanity. What Paul says in Romans 8:35-39 applies to the elect - not all of humanity.
So, "shall not see" means "shall not see", but people in an unbelieving state will come to faith if they are part of the elect? So that person that currently doesn't believe and, therefore, "shall not see" - still ends up seeing.
It doesn't matter how you phrase it, you still agree that "shall not see" is not a permanent state for anyone that ends up believing later on.
@@devindaniels1379
you said: "So, "shall not see" means "shall not see", but people in an unbelieving state will come to faith if they are part of the elect?"
Yes, the elect are not appointed to wrath. The unbelieving "shall not see life". That's what the Bible teaches.
you: "So that person that currently doesn't believe and, therefore, "shall not see" - still ends up seeing.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say the elect "shall not see life". Nice try The elect stand on what the Word says and don't play word games in an attempt to MANipulate the text - and make it say what they want it to mean!
you: "It doesn't matter how you phrase it, you still agree that "shall not see" is not a permanent state for anyone that ends up believing later on."
Nowhere in the Bible does it say the elect "shall not see life".
Nowhere in the Bible does it say all of humanity (past, present, future) is saved - and will see life.
All your verse says is the one not believing will not see life. You keep importing your concept of election into it.
So I'll try a direct question to see where I'm losing you.
Someone currently doesn't believe, can we say anything about whether or not they will see life?
Please note that needing any further information about said person (i.e. whether or not they are elect) is going beyond anything in your verse.
💘
The "him" and "that man" is not the same person as the "he" in both passages.
Him, that man, i.e. the Son of man. He, i.e. Judas.
It would have been better for the Son of man if Judas had not been born.
no universalist is EVER orthodox.
you will find that out come judgement day when you get your chance to plead your case before the Almighty Himself
We love you too ❤
You do realize all means all, right? Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Why would believing that God is the most merciful God conceivable something I should defend to God? If I'm wrong, I see no reason to think God will view me harshly for believing He is capable and willing to reconcile all of mankind, and I know God knows my heart well enough to know that my belief is based in faith and love for Him. It's honestly silly to me when ECT believers act like, if your theology isn't 100% correct, you're hell-bound. God help the Calvinists if free will is true, or they're going to suffer forever, right? Oops, you believed the Garden of Eden was literal when it was actually metaphorical? Enjoy eternal torture, sinner! Like, it's so obviously ridiculous that I don't know why I'm bothering writing this.
We have seen the judgement of God on the Cross (Father forgive them they know not what they do). Sin has been forgiven and Death defeated and the Spirit and the Bride call all to live in this reality.
God will make Mankind in his image, it will not happen in this age but it will come to pass. Colossians 1v15-20. Grace and Peace
People always get so angry towards universalists. I don't know why.