@@BrunnieUrsi yep it is, it has its own mechanics that make him tilting for the enemy jungler, with the smite you can literally steal the enemy blue buff in like 5 seconds. You don't have to expect to go full AP, you're the secondary support that should go with tanky/AP. Normally in silver IV really few people known him and they're all scared af and normally waste a lot of flashes LMAO
They really need to remove the spires from his kit and get him a more meaningful passive that doesn't require gimmicks or something. Also, why the fuck is his E no longer dealing damage? Even so, they could at least increase its range or width.
The biggest example for me was Lulu, because people would abuse Lulu top or mid she was nerfed to the ground to the point where support Lulu was unviable for like 2-3 seasons.
@@OsmoZchannel Long range point and click E which deals a lot of damage + q which you can use from any range after you use E. Yeeeah thats a total bullshit to play against. Imagine if ziggs Q was point and click...
"don't restrict a champion to a role" AND NOW THAT IS ALL THEY DO, they are so HYPER-specific about which lane a hero WILL go in that any other strategies will be nerfed into the ground and it just sucks
what about pyke? he was 'designed' to be a support, but people pick him jungle and even toplane. Kaisa was fit to be an ad carry, maybe even a midlaner, but people play her in the jungle too. its not like a champion can play only the 1/2 roles they have, it depends on the meta and the current state of the champion, his optimal build path and the game overall. nothing is fixed is what i meant to say.
the pure dmg ult gives full kill gold on top of the assist gold to the adc youre supporting and he has a hook, a stun and benefits from being in bushes. what about him isnt designed as a support
@@PravoslavniMetal listen to what you just described. Hook and Stun? Good CC = Good Ganks. Ult gold = Snowball lane ganks. Bush presence = Jungle pressure (bushes all over the jungle) His kit was designed well for supp and jg
I'll give my game designer perspective on why: Power Creep. The game evolved, a lot, over the years and new mechanics are now integrated into the game so there's a lot more space for possibilities and stronger heroes. That's mainly why Riot is remaking all the old champs over time, because they need to get them higher up in the curve else they'll be dropped into completely obsolete territory and that's not good for the longevity and variety of the game.
@@Cudgeon Which also isn't true because newer champions are almost always more popular before older champions are reworked (and or tweaked / balanced to keep up).
Riot's logic : We don't like to force meta. Wait, is this guy playing singed support? and he has more than 2000 games? And a legitimate win rate of 50%+ ? WE BETTER BAN HIM
So not even a good off meta troll pick like AP Shaco top in the hands of that one dude who is master/challenger a lot with it. Name slips my mind right now.
Yes, thanks. I guess my point is because he's never actually hit challenger Riot sees him as a troll. Admittedly a high level troll, but a troll nonetheless.
Every time you said "weird builds, too much freedom" I only heard "fun". League became very annoying with set in stone meta when ghostcrawler got into riot. HE is the cancer. I'm glad he's out but the damage is done.
The introduction of Yasuo changed everything... if you really think about the history of the game. Every champ since has been an effort to counter-balance the movement that came with the introduction of Yasuo and every subsequent champ.
Compared to janna (who had supposedly mastered air techniques) yasuo does way too many things. Yasuo was indeed the first released champions that had ALL the weaknesses covered. Its why he and camille get free shields. It doesn't make any sense in the kit but it just makes them more durable (and then they proceed to nerf base hp!) Kaisa doesn't even need to create anything herself to use ult she can just follow ally cc!! Then they give her bonusses for getting enough att speed/ad/ap to ensure she's a late game monster, but she has to be proactive early as well! Meanwhile janna's kit is lazy and unimpressive (for a wind mage).
I think another big issue is how extremely loaded newer champs kits are compared to older ones. Kayn floats through walls and can change forms that drastically alter his gameplay. Xayah and Rakan have special interactions that give them an edge when playing together, not to mention Zoe's E has like 11 different effects. Nunu shoots an iceball and.. well.. thats about it for reliable moves and annie just runs up and facerolls her moves in any order she feels atm
her E slows, Sleeps, Extends range through walls, leaves a trap on the ground, and it boosts the damage of the first hit to break the sleep. W just picks up summoners and shoots lasers around when you use one
I completely agree, the key difference is that while they all have 5 abilities, in the newer champions each ability has a dozen unrelated effects. Its fine if its the champions gimmick but if you are gonna do it on every champions it simply makes the 'normal' champions irrelivant
Yea exactly, with things like rakan/xayah having extra utility together, kayn having 2 different ults that have drastically different playstyles, and champs like zoe who just have a whole lot of effects on one ability, it makes the older ones like annie or fiddle looks so stale
He was one of main mid, counter of ALL ad assassins and even some ap ones. Anti-assassin and anti-ad, I even used him in ranked vs zed (hard won lane, then he got fed in other lanes)
I used to main Urgot toplane until they "updated" him, now he feels sh*t to play (like the long cooldowns or that stupid passive) and has almost no good meta match ups :S
@@mariosblago94 it's not about it, it's about that riot invests quite more in aesthetic things, that obv give em profit, than in mechanisms to maintain the nature of the league. It's like a government, the education and sport department arent conducted by the same people, but we can agree that the government role here is to decide how much money it is going to invest and in which department it's going to be, same as Riot in our case.
They don´t even make new ideas. They just copy splasharts from other games. (They copied a Tracer and Pharah lookalikes to skins I don´t remember. Pharah splashart and I think Project Vayne or Kaisa´s skin had a splashart that even was eliminated from the internet).
every champion now has built in sustain, mobility, and cc. For example, you have yasuo introduced as a midlaner, and he got 2 defensive abilities because "he needs to survive poke", when it was his main weakness. zed is also like this, but more safe compensing the sustain. then reworked ryze, wich is same bullshit as old ryze that was deemed toxic, but more mobile and spikes earlyer, with an added teleport because reasons. Kled on the top has damage, a passive that is pretty much an anivias egg on steroids, then cc, and sivirs ult combined with a hecarim charge... Big engage if you ask me. he would have been labeled as overloaded in his kit if he was released anytime sooner. rakan shouldnt have healing... even jhin has hard cc and a movespeed aid. kayn has dps, built in sustain, aoe hard cc in a short CD (for a bruiser or assassin) and mobility. i dont think i need to talk about gnar... or the fact that they "fixed" the juggernauts by just adding stuff on their kits (the 0 mana cost ult on darius and his self heal Q, or garens armor reduction and villain mechanic). new champions just do what older champions did, but better and safer.
Yes they have more tools, specially mobility but there is stil old simple champions that are super strong at what they do. Garen is a perfect example, simple kit, very tanky and high base damage for a tank. Trundle is also kind of simple but is a monster duelist that doesn't need fancy mechanics to do his job.
Nowadays they are getting rid of every option. Old League was fun, experimental and variable. Today nearly every situational item is removed from the game, every support buys a redemption and ardent censer, every bruiser buys a drakhtar and so on.
What annoys me the most is how Riot simply made Mordekaiser even weaker than when he was a mid laner and just left him there without any plans to fix him
This is DK Morde from the future, with the inclusion of Shield Bash and Dark harvest he can be destructive at mid and top and bot can also be great if the following supports are with him, Morgana, Neeko, Pyke, Leona, Thresh, Blitzcrank and New Aatrox, try Morde and Aatrox bot you Will NOT be disapointed
Probably, the easiest way to fix Mordekaiser, is to introduce a spell steal mechanic: he really only worked when you could get enough sustain from spell steal. So, if we added a passive to his ultimate that adds a small percentage, something like 5, 10, 15, spell steal to his regular spells, then Mordekaiser could come back.
@@youngthinker1 no need, the dark harvest shield bash update have officially made him a solid pick, maybe not meta but Still, you can go summon Aery for maximum poke, or dark harvest to survive the late game, but Riot have said that he is getting reworked again, maybe after Sylas comes
On the opposite spectrum, some of the new champions (Kayn, Camille, Zoe) have WAY too much utility. To the point where there's no middle balance. You either have an OP champion or a weak gutted champion. Kindred was nerfed to the ground.
Red Kayn has tons of utility and is unkillable. Blue Kayn will make it 4v5 if you dare to blink while walking around the map. (even if you are 5 he can one shot with QW and flash auto another and ult him to QW behind and E escape.)
For me, I dont think that riot is forgetting about champions,but rather that they dont know what to do with them, and maybe waiting for better ideas to improve them.
Arthur Rosa think of it this way we have all these champs that people say need a rework but the problem is doing so without over tuning them or make them just as bad as before or just like teemo were they suck at most things but the thing they are good at they are op at doing it
Arthur Rosa the problem with reworks is they don’t wanna change them completely but find ways to make them work but still be similair cuz they know many love their champs... so it’s kinda our fault that they don’t just start from scratch except for exceptions like yorick who was a lost cause
Think of all the art for skins, programming, and testing that goes into a rework. It is legitimately easier to start from scratch as you don't have to uphold any preexisting identity.
Arthur Rosa because the quality and development time in champion massively increased after they took a long time to design thresh and he was very successful so they decieded to take longer to make champs and they are much better
Just a mini correction, @gbay99: They still haven't "categorized champions by role." Those are actually the top champs played in that role by people who queue for that role (obviously tweaked or capped by hand slightly since they only show so many AD carries). That's why Ezreal almost immediately showed up in the Jungle tab and why Quinn and Graves do not show up in the botlane tab. If they introduced a more aggressive version of Ravenous Hunter, added physical damage to the shield of Nullifying Orb, or reintroduced a mastery to help last hits or pushing on mages like season 4's Arcane Blade mastery, and people started playing Cassiopeia, Viktor, etc. botlane, you can bet they would show up in that botlane tab within a few days.
Karthus for a while was showing up in every tab except support for a while, and some champions do not appear in any of the categories. It's based off pickrate and it's a suggestion, the basic idea is to help people that don't normally play a role to get an idea of what other people do in that role. Most Top mains are not clicking on the top tab, they're more likely clicking on Mastery or Favorites. The only exception you'll find is ADC's in which you might find ADC players struggling to find certain ADC's in that "bot" list.
i heard it a couple of times in the past. you know what though? i saw a new champ today, it looked like a scorpion, i think its name was Suckrner? something like that
Aatrox is a godlike powerhouse that is basically immortal! Provided you play him in toplane, versus a melee champion, that is not a tank, and does not build bramblevest, nor builds executioners calling. And you steal farm from your jungler, and the enemy team has 0 CC or slows, and god forbid the enemy team has an ADC... But the most important thing about playing as Aatrox is knowing how to stack your bloodwell and how to use your Q. You see, your Q CC's yourself for like a second before you jump at an enemy location with such an incredible speed that you can open up a beer during the animation. This means that your Q is an engage only, as you literally die if you try to use it to escape. But that is OK! As you revive from death! Only to die again instantly... but eh at least you tried...That is if ofcourse your 5 stack bloodwell doesnt drop off after 5 seconds because your E is on an half hour cooldown. Ok that might be a bit much... your E doesnt have an half hour cooldown... its more like 20 minutes... and the animation is so slow that you can literally outrun it with boots of swiftness... But that is all good! because the shape of his E works in such a way that 2 weird lines go towards a target to deal dmg! note that these lines can in fact be blocked seperatly by stuff like yasuos windwall! Not that it does any extra dmg for hitting both lines tho... so no idea what riot is thinking but YEAH! fuck EYAH! 2 LINES! Now prior to his rework Aatrox had both AD and AP scalings, making it so that he could actually do something against someone building armor. Riot removed this and made him a full AD scaling champion! With the exception of his ult ofc... that scales with AP because fuck it... But yeah, if you play Aatrox, and do something funny like build Crit on him... then you can kill the ELISE that has ganked you over and over and over and over again in 3 hits late game... I fcking love playing Aatrox tho :D There is nothing more satisfying than killing a Yasuo/Riven toplane with an Aatrox over and over and over again. To bad that both of those champions will choose to farm Aatrox rather than minions but still...
one of the biggest issues for older champs is that alot of them dont have dashes. more have a speed up or a jump on to the opponent. you kept bringing up voli he worked better before dashes became a bigger thing and every champ seemed to get an inherent dash/jump. yes he had issues before but alot of matchups he could make it work by being faster than the opponent. a lot of newer champs come with more inherent power than older champs. some of the pre/non reworked non assassin champs take either alot of set up (mf as an example) or they take a little bit longer to kill you straight up. i can say for at least voli his release was literally right before a shift in champion concepts with the 2 following being fizz and ahri ( i remember that line up as i joined right before fizz was introduced but after voli was out), with the shift to lane focused roles champs start to get phased out and every older champ has to be on the chopping block to get a rework ( some more than others). those are just a few of my thoughts on it.
Not only did they slap dash after dash on newer champions, they also nerfed the mobility counters from the game (point and click or instant CC). Without a direct counter to mobility you either have it or loose.
Volis Q is exactly his problem. Mages have a huge focus on control now while a lot of adcs and assassins have high mobility. Going rawr and running at someone in a straight line doesnt cut it anymore, not to mention his kit is so unfocused. His Q and E make him seem like a jungle tank while his W and R are more for a fighter/split pusher which is a thing Gbay talked about alot in the video. He needs a rework so bad, most league sites have near zero data on him because hes so useless in almost every role
The mobility creep has made it next to impossible to play non-mobile champs against the new characters from a dashing perspective. I agree with you. I am someone who plays Volibear randomly as a guilty pleasure pick. The biggest problem with Voli, other than being outdated and completely anti-synergetic with his own kit, is how he is too slow for the current game. He has to run at people and pray they don't have some kind of (generous) dash that lets them escape Voli. The only way you can even catch up to people with Voli is if they are immobile for some reason or somehow CC'd by something else... Even then, Voli's gameplay pattern is one-dimensional and needs an upgrade.
This is the issue. I was still playing during the period where it felt like every hero had to have a nuke on Q, a dash, and some sort of auto-attack-modifying passive. When you make every hero so essentially similar, either that kind of hero will suck, or everyone else will be left behind. This is the nice thing about Dota. Practically none of the heroes of Dota have a non-ultimate mobility skill, and for those that do it's pretty much the defining feature of their skillset (AM, Nature's Prophet etc). Everyone else *can* access mobility via items. It's part of what makes heroes feel strong without having to stick to a certain template.
@@SherrifOfNottingham well that's not unusual, what about Sion, syndra, nunu or any other champ who can interact with enemy minions well, are they broken too?
@@Fabian-pg3fg to a certain degree I find those champions slightly problematic, but compared to the power spike of your own wave of minions showing up near a yasuo they're really not worth mentioning. Its like giving sion a single ruby crystal or syndra a single amp tomb... while yasuo is getting a BF sword. Champions like Neeko or Sion should be looked at for this problem behavior, but Yasuo is definitely the worst offender to an oppressive degree.
What people forget is volibear WAS really strong at one point in League, At the start everyone thought Voli wasn't that good in s2 then Diamondprox played him competitively with success. Riot then changed Voli's Q from being a 1 point wonder ability with 80% movespeed increase at level 1 to something like 30/40% movespeed increase at level 1 scaling up to 80% increase with points into the ability. After that, I've literally never considered Volibear a strong pick since there in any meta, which is a shame, but he used to be a great ganker until Riot overnerfed that ability.
You know Gbay, you need to stop getting on yourself for being 'whiny' or 'negative' because your complains are legitimate, you are talking about actual real problems that Riot needs to address but just consistently seems to ignore, and it's hella frustrating. Part of that is also is how many people in the community DON'T complain and just praise Riot for whatever it's doing no matter what it is, and don't turn their attention to issues the game has, you complain because you love the game, that's why you're criticizing it's issues. Riot could be doing so much better, so I don't view it as being negative, I think you are one of the big voices saying things that NEED to be said.
I thought the long-running meme was about making fun of what Riot thinks is good game balance. Never has it been said that the league community does not complain enough about Riot.
I find his analysis of the problem to be flawed, as the common denominator with these "broken" champions is not "built for any role or position" but actually targeted abilities. Maokai was made to be a support tank, but like Braum he wasn't balanced around the idea of people taking him as a top lane bruiser, or mid or jungler. So when the player base got a hold of him they instantly tried the weird shit and his kit ended up with abilities that were fundamentally flawed. I mean shit, have you seen shit like support tank Zoe? It's kind of broken... and why is that? Because Riot didn't even bother to balance people doing that with her because they expected her to be a mid lane champion? The fact is there's more evidence pointing to champions that were built for a specific role having balance issues than that of champions with flexible roles and builds being problems. Because there's far more champions that are great examples of "supports that are OP junglers" or "junglers that are broken tops" than there are examples of champions that were built with multiple roles or positions in mind being problems.
It's funny, I came off of the video with the exact opposite opinion. That these were exaggerations and not necessary, and that the reworks are more about gamefeel than about just updating older characters. To me, Teemo isn't that much of a problem. I can play him well, and I can play against him well. The only time he's that much of a threat is when the top laner doesn't be careful. So long as there's some coordination, his blind isn't enough to save him from more than one person. Maokai is powerful, sure, but he's only got burst CC. Complaining about his and not Leona's is kinda counter-intuitive. A team can survive him easily enough, and without his team to back him up he's not able to roflstomp quite like other bruisers. Overall while I totally get where this is coming from, the video I mean, I ultimately do not agree that this is as big a problem as it's made out to be. There's no characters in the game right now that are actually unplayable, and none that are a guaranteed win. It's teamwork and coordination that determines victory, with a heavy helping of skill in there as well. Laning phase is important, but late game is when all the cards are on the table. This video only addresses the first part, and acts like it is all that matters.
What problem exactly? That there are some champions that are not pro viable? Why is that a problem? And what community are you a part of exactly? Since when does league playeys not complain about Riot?!? There is literally no champion that isn't played by someone in ranked, so I don't really see the problem. There will always be champions favored by the meta, and so there will be champions played more often than others, but as long as every champ is getting played then it's all good
I just got to diamond 1 rank and I play fiddle on all 5 roles, despite riot trying to force him into support only. But I totally hate how items are so stupid now, each item and champion and ability does arbitrarily more or less damage depending on what you're using it on, according to riot's special rules. Just give the items raw stats and let the players use the items in creative ways, geezz....
From what I understand Irelia is getting reworked cause she was released with the opposite effect. I wasn't playing back then, but from what I picked up from long time players was that she was an attempt from Riot to make a good non-tank melee champ (as most were seen as unusable at the time). The problem that came up was that they put so much stuff onto Irelia's kit to make this happen that she became a complete powerhouse that would earn the "Better nerf" meme because small changes to items or numbers could cause her to get way out of hand making her a balance issue.
Mostafa Ebrahim Sorta, she was designed as a melee assassin and expected to be built that way. Players however realised that with her great healing and true damage that you could simply build her full tank and still assassinate people.
As someone who mains wukong I am also frustrated that champions like irelia get reworked while wukong is getting completely ignored. Srsly aside from the buff he got in the preseason like every champion he wasn't even touched on. He lacks cc and sustain, to cause any meaningful dmg he has to use a lot of mana and with his assassain build his passive is pointless. Srsly if you play wukong against a tank or bruiser with low mana costs the only option is to roam and hope to get kills
Yeah the only hope if you want to play wukong as a bruiser is to try to abuse the extra range on your q to proc grasp levels 1 and 2 to get a health lead big enough that they can't fight back, if you don't do that then they just win and you become useless
Project DASKZ This build works well with him but you still have to agree with me that wukong lacks sustains, his mana costs are high for the dmg he deals even with electrecute and he has a lot of bad matchups espcially against champions with no mana like riven or even gareb or tanks with low mana costs abillities like maokai or ornn
Not a Wukong main, but I do play him a bit and had a 75% win rate on him last season (not many games though; I don't play that much ranked, and I usually don't blind pick wukong to avoid facing his tougher matchups; He's still my third most played top for the 2017 ranked season (4th if you count TT games)). I'll agree his laning can be pretty lackluster at times, though he does have matchups where he can do well such as when facing a yasuo. Jungle is also doable, but the lack of sustain and pre6 ganking power makes it such that the early game is pretty terrible. Mid lane Wukong is also doable if you have magic damage elsewhere in the team, though I've only done it in normals. Nonetheless I wouldn't mind if wukong stayed the way he is. He has a strong lategame, he's fun to play, not being great lcs material means he can get away with a higher win rate than a good few other champions and he is pretty great on other maps like aram and Ascention.
The champion is good with bruiser items. Preferably Tri force first item. The problem is that his passive is the worst garbage I've ever laid eyes upon.
Cant help but be reminded of that Singed player who was banned for playing him as a support. Riot really has changed their philosophy on champion design.
True it wasn't just because he was playing singed, he used smite and focused on counter jungling and roaming. Most ADC's would report him because, even when he was in lane, the singed pick made it essentially a 2v1. He was officially banned for lack of communication I think, because he chose to play singed even though his team didn't want him to (meaning this could theoretically apply to any pick if it was off-meta enough). Even still, the fact that he climbed to plat with his weird strategy is enough proof that he shouldn't have been banned.
This entire video's premise isn't quite right. Riot's still making champions that are flexible in role; See Ornn's presence in literally every possible role and lane except ADC as an example. The design philosophy at Riot hasn't actually changed much at all. The problem is, instead, twofold. First: Riot's gotten better at making more cohesive kits- every ability in Ornn's kit works together. See, back in seasons 1, 2 and early season 3, Riot had a stated goal of releasing a new champion every other week. This meant that they couldn't spend 1 month putting together a basic kit and then another month testing it. Instead they'd rush through champion and kit design to have SOMETHING out at the end of those two weeks. (Check the champion release pool for that time period and you can confirm it; nearly 24 champions released for the first two years, and then it slowed dramatically to maybe 5 champions) If you look at older, struggling champions like Aatrox, or the original Swain, you can clearly see they just aimed at having a kit that looked like it fit the champion, and then threw it together. Second: Riot, for 3 whole seasons, was obsessed with mobility. If you look at the champion releases from season 3.5 to season 6.5 nearly every champion released has some form of mobility. Dashes became commonplace, as did movement speed steroids. Those that didn't usually had strong zone denial or CC. As an example- Volibear, on release back in late season 2, was actually terrifyingly strong. People played him as a tank top, jungler, or support, because he was overbearing and hard to deal with for less mobile champions. And then the mobility wave hit and he became less and less relevant because it was harder for his linear 'running at you quickly' gameplay pattern to pan out when the target would suddenly fail to be there, or would just zone and kite him to death. So people stopped playing him because his primary engagement tool didn't work nearly as well any more. It's the same reason Udyr has only seen relevance in about 1 or 2 patches per season when Riot accidentally super-buffs one part of his kit or itemization. To summarize: Older kits that weren't part of the initial release weren't designed with flexibility of role in mind- they just were rushed and not well designed period. As well, newer champions stress high mobility and fast paced gameplay that older, less mobile champions struggle against.
That kind of reiterates my point, really. Hanlon's razor is in full effect here. In this case, most of the failing champs were badly designed, not because of intentional design choices on Riot's part, but simply because Riot just didn't spend time developing champions that had cohesive and working kits. And you can feel that when you play newer champions; Zoe's kit feels sleek and clearly plays well with itself because there have literally been months dedicated to putting together a solid champion. Nunu's kit is all over the place because Riot just slapped a few abilities together and called it a day.
Teemo S1: *What a toxic champ you can't engage him nor escape from him* Teemo S8: *OMG HE IS STILL TOXIC I WANT TO DIE* Unnacurate, no people plays league if they started from the release.
The video doesn't come across whiny at all. I think it brings up a great point about the good and the bad older champions that most people could sense but never really gave much thought to.
Except the analysis is off base. For one Maokai was released as a support champion, but the playerbase had other ideas, this is the common trend for heroes that end up being in this "rework" position. Typically when you force a champion into a specific role you start to balance it around it. Then people who never get tired of trying new builds and lane comps take them elsewhere and notice that... holy shit Support Tank Zoe is broken.... or Braum top OP. The moment you try to cram a champion into a specific "slot" the more likely you'll make a balance change somewhere that makes them just disgustingly broken in a different role you weren't thinking of. The reality is the common denominator for the shitty champions in need of rework, Irelia, Maokai, Teemo, Pantheon, and Nunu... Targeted Abilities. Maokai was a support, Panth was a mid laner, Nunu was a jungler... Like these were the roles they were originally built for, so to say the "ambiguous roles" was the problem is not only an incorrect observation, for the champions that are the most problematic this claim isn't even true. I would say that there's almost an opposite correlation but not strong enough to base any conclusions off of. Gbay's a nice guy, but you can clearly see that he's an Irelia player ignoring the fact that she too has a targeted ability in her kit that is pretty much identical to Maokai's. The very criticism he made for tree guy is also valid for magnet girl... the reason it comes across as whiny is because he's basically complaining that they're changing Irelia instead of Maokai even though both champions have the same common denominator as all the other champions people complain about, targeted abilities. Sure she and Maokai only have one, while pantheon has 2, but still.
the reason why league champs have to be reworked(or left at a very low powerlevel) all the time cause if it doesn't fit a certain "archetype" they don't want it. If it's too unique they don't want it. They introduce tons of mechanics/combos that feel super forced (ryze rework, zilean rw), almost every new champ has this. Dota for example has much less of these combo mechanics, and yet manages to have a higher skillcap(not hating in lol most people who played both would agree), I've heard multiple sources cite easy of accessability and learning curve as a big PRO for leauge, I can't argue with that.it has no prescribed role for any hero or lane set-up, heck how could you if lanes can end up being either 1-1-3, 3-1-1, 2-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-1-2, 1-1-1(with either junglers or lvl1 roamers) there are not set item paths(only ONE jungling item and ONLY if you have smite). This forced streamlining has advantaged but kills some of the game's fun. There are numerous examples, but you don't "jungle" furion, he is not a "jungler" no hero is even remotely similar to him due to his 20(at lvl7, 0s at max level)s cooldown global twisted fate teleport(that doesn't warn anyone) The difference between most characters in lol take most adcs play approximately the same, they are nuance differences, when in Dota you can only rarely directly compare two heroes since it's incredibly rare for spellsets to follow a given template like the lol (1cc 1mobility 1 damage spell many adcs have) I just came back and played ~50 after quitting in 2012 those are my observations. It's easier to access due to everything being streamlined and I appreciate that easy relearning experience, but it has it's costs.
All the way back, we didnt have Ad carry the term adc was short for ad caster, pointing at those who build lots of ad but no attack speed, and deal damage via abilities more than aa; since caster roll s usually ap. Like pantheon, renekton, etc...
The real problem is that they were designed and balanced in the way dota heroes were. They had open ended kits with clear strengths and exploitable flaws with little mechanical counterplay. Counterplay was based on picking good matchups and finding ways to make your exploitable strengths counter their exploitable flaws.
Exactly. Since Dota kept this design it worked out, but once League switched then the old champions started getting problematic as the new ones were a lot more tailored for something specific.
The most forced thing that riot has done is restricting supports to babysit the adc.the potential for roaming supports is so good because of their kits but its frowned upon now a days in LOL community.. it is something dota i can tell hasnt ever looked down on.
He tries to state that the reason is because champions were designed back then with the idea of not filling a specific role... but some of the biggest offenders of bad design are usually champions that were framed to fill a specific role that could be abused in places other than their expected role. Like support champions like Maokai, Braum and Lulu all finding extreme success top, which when nerfed made them worthless as support. In other words the thesis for this video is flawed, incorrect, and heavily biased. Singed was designed to be played anywhere, with no specific role in mind, and for the most part (besides the proxying shit) he's not a problematic champion. The bigger more common thread of design flaws is targeted abilities, champions with point and click abilities are typically the most annoying to play against. He only references this shortly with Maokai but glosses over it as though it's a side effect of Maokai "not being designed for a specific role" (when he was specifically designed to be a support)
The reason why I relia is getting changed is due to he lack of “skillful” components in her kit. Her q is a point click dash that resets after unit killed, her w is a simple passive and active true dmg and healing on autos, her e is a point click stun, her ult is somewhat gimmicky for its either used to wave clear or duel. She does have SOME skill attached to her kit but recently with changes like to zilean and yorick, riot aims for more skill shot orientated and overall more forms of counterplay rewarding the player playing the champ and those vsing them. In whole I do agree with you on the state of these champs, And as you stated champs like teemo are so iconic that future changes aren’t likely. Been following your work for many years now, some of your videos may seem whinny but honestly I feel the same way at times. Older players such as ourselves played at a different time and despite all the changes we keep coming back to the game, so obviously we would see discrepancies in kits,etc. Enjoy your work keep it up.
The only teemo change that is needed to make him not so oppressive is to make his Q a skillshot. That's really it. That's how you basically fix these champions. Their biggest glaring issues are the targeted abilities. Now the thing is, like for example, Katarina's shunpo... If you made her capable of jumping "anywhere" that would just be a massive buff. But to give a tank the abilitiy to dash to you and stun you like Irelia or Maokai, is a problem. With an assassin like Kat it's not so bad (the bouncing knives could stand to be an initial skillshot before the targeted bouncing) shunpo puts you wherever you jump to, so jumping into an enemy could get you killed. So yeah, I can understand a Kat or even Yi having a targeted "jump to" ability (though Yi's might want a _little_ tuning) because their positioning is basically compromised. Especially if they can't jump away as easy. The fact is champions weren't broken or "bad design" because they were made to fit multiple roles, builds, positions, or teams, but because they have point and click targeted abilities. I found the video to be entirely whiny and ignorant of the real problems with these champions.
It's kind of funny when you think about it. Before, people were begging and pleading for Riot to keep some targeted abilities in the game just because that's the most reliable counter to mobility. No amount of ward-hopping and wall-jumping is getting you out of old Sion's or Taric's stun. People wanted these abilities kept intact so that they could keep mobility creep in check, but now mobility creep has become the name of the game and anything that hampers your ability to directly control your character without input on your end seems like bad design when it's no problem at all in other games, and it wasn't viewed as problematic even before in the same game. I wonder what actually changed to drastically alter the opinion of what is and is not good design so much.
Nothing really changed, the people complaining about "mobility creep" are mostly just complaining. They're not thinking about what is good and bad design, these champions have been the root of complaints for a long time, and the complaints have become more numerous as people have gotten better at the game, to the point where hitting a person with 5 blinks isn't that hard.
When you mentioned the number one - way to exploit a champions kit in a role, the first thing that came into my mind was the old Gragas - a fat man that carried around his *'TOTALLY-NOT-ALCOHOL-MAGICAL-DRINKS'* was clearly meant to be a bruiser with sustain and crowd control - his original kit was a great example of Riot's weird kit design and number balancing and for this reason he was one of the only *TRUE HYBRID DAMAGE CHAMPIONS* in the game: the old Body Slam dealt magic damage....but had only an AD ratio and had AP ratio added later - his old Drunken Rage was an insane pure stats buff: whilst you took a swig you restored flat amount of mana, than after that you got a boost of * UP TO FLAT 70 AD AND 26% DAMAGE REDUCTION* - all of this while your Barrel Roll and Explosive Cask dealt both magic damage - but as they finally added the AP ratio on his Body Slam - people realized how ridiculously high AP ratios and base damage his kit had combined together - which lead to people playing him in mid and building Full AP as high burst mage with instantaneous burst damage you couldn't do anything about - you could literally delete almost anyone by just throwing out Q and R sequentially (also at this time his ult didn't have a fixed travel time and the animation speed was based on the throwing distance, so it could be thrown right beneath him for instant knock back and burst) - at this time his Barrel Roll could be popped instantly for some insane poke-/burst damage and it didn't have the 'ferment' mechanic on it - for a very long period of time he dominated midlane as this super tanky - high sustain - AOE burst mage, even Riot themselves acknowledged this and finally nerfed him justifying it by saying that Gragas had become a *"Tanky Barrel Sniper"* which wasn't clearly his intended identity..... After this his kit was updated and cleaned up by removing his weird AD scalings and AD boost from Drunken Rage - turning him into a bruiser-ish mage - his base damages and ratios were nerfed so that he wasn't played in mid anymore, but rather quickly found his new overpowered spot in *TOP LANE* as a *TANKY MAGE* thanks to his reworked Drunken Rage with its on-hit % Magic damage nuke having super-low cooldown and it initially had *NO MANA COST* ....this along with his updated Happy Hour healing him for % max health instead of just giving hp regeneration.... meant that he could basically out-sustain almost any lane opponent by essentially gaining free health back by spamming Drunken Rage... OR he would just poke them out of lane by slamming them to death with the on-hit damage..... this was noticed rather quickly and the W was given the mana cost which finally along with some other adjustments drove Gragas out of the solo lanes.... into being used as a tanky jungler (or occasionally as a tanky support) which we all know nowadays
Olaf used to be a unique champ that had very interesting strengths, players found out that his base damages were good and CDR fit him, but Riot just had to destroy him
BIRUMAN AVG you can still dominate as Olaf.but it feels like you destroy them cause of the raw item power and not because of the champion' s specific strengths.
Kayle isn’t that bad with the issue, she’s very versatile, she’s a solid top lane pick against most champs, not being super easy to counter. She’s a solid support if she builds and plays right, there are generally better picks than her in each role, but she can still do her job fairly reliably when played right
Yeah so back in the day in season one, I had a friend who played Morg, and I would play Kayle on occasion to have the angel bot lane. She's virtually the same as she was back then, she has not been reworked or fixed. She's never been changed that much. The most that's happened is new item builds because they kept changing those... but that's it. Her entire kit is the same as it was on release.
John Moore then maybe it’s just me, I’ve faced her top, mid, and support in the preseason and haven’t personally had an issue with her, but I know I don’t speak for everyone
Before i watch the video my idea: because the new champions have kits that are overloaded with shields, cc and dmg. every new champ has to have some kind of new cool stuff.
new cool stuff isn't the problem. But if the new cool stuff comes 2 more things slapped on it just for because, then it becomes a problem. Best example: Zoe. Q: A skillshot that you can redirect once. That alone would be ok, but no. -> has to have splash. borderline, but ok. -> has range travel damage-increase that makes Nidalee cry. (max ap ratio: Zoe 165%, Nidalee 120%) -> oh and to make sure she doesn't loose much of that for not skilling it: basedamage scales with her level as well. W: Free summoners/item activations? on practically no CD? Cool and strong in itself. You can flash away from her, since she gets your flash for free etc. -> dump additional movementspeed on it -> slap damage as well just for shits and jiggles E: A skillshot that travels through terrain without that counting to the range. Unique and cool. -> comes with a zoning-field that gives the full effect to the enemy stepping into it, should she miss.... Ok.. we are aproaching overl... -> target is slowed for 1.5 sec unaffected by tenacity... yep over -> foillowed by the longest hard-CC in ingame. at lvl 1. Oo -> And since we lover overloaded kits, here have additional truedamage on top of it.
+TreyjonjiFTW And that's what makes them unique, and not a shitty rip-ff of another champion that already exists in league, Riot has creative mind's so they take it to the fullest on their champions designs. But Zoe... let's just try to ignore her existence for a bit.
yeah creativity isnt the problem, just playing vs champs that have kind of everything in their kit. outside of that, the actual champions created in the last time are amazing.
@Mythical Psh, you think Rito is creative? Plenty of other games have more interesting character designs than Rito ever created. 300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Mikasa_Ackerman 300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_Testarossa 300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Mutou_Yuugi 300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Shiro 300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Sora 300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Lelouch 300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Edogawa_Conan Each of the above characters has mechanics that make them heads and shoulders above Riot in terms of creativity (though I can't say the actual character models are creative since they're just anime characters). Ackerman shoots grappling hooks to walls to launch herself forward. Yes, I know Riot launched a champion with that mechanic not too long ago but Ackerman has had that for years already. Fate Testarossa's ult changes based on which non-ult skill she uses. Yugi has 3 freaking forms to switch between. Shiro and Sora have passives and skills that complement each other and thus should be played in a pair. Lelouch can spawn and manipulate units while having a giant robot that he can summon and mount. Conan takes control of an enemy character. Riot isn't even creative. They may have been creative back in seasons 1-3 but after they decided to cement the meta and force everything into following the meta, they just became boring.
BansheeNT-D The new Urgod got literally everything from the old, except his armor penetration and a swap that would make more sense know then before. He has still poke as a bruiser, medium auto range, bad mobility but mobility, same damage on medium range but way way more tackiness and usefulness because of an execution and an aoe fear plus he looks much cooler and threatening
BansheeNT-D He never was an adc. More of a range toplaner like he is know.the only thing he can't do know, is beeing played as a niche midlaner.thats right. But I think he looks cooler still got this good mix of clnkiness and the core design of the old
Mohammad Nachawati He was an adc for riot on Paper, but in practice He was an ad attelerie Caster that got a Little Bit tankines and cc and got Range With high consistent damage but Not as Much damage as an normal adc
This video barely touches the subject, it's too vaguely and doesn't explain well why or how some champions don't work. You also don't talk on how Riot perfers to nerf aspect of some champions because it's op with some item or rune, making it unplayable without the item/rune and "balanced" with it (and most of the time are better option for that "balanced" position). Also how they nerf champs unusuable to avoid problems saying that they will "fix them later".
Toy Time King he was always good. He was 'all-star' champ every season since season 1. Riot didnt even do all star this year. Good thing cause he wouldnt even make it anymore. He was just an ardent enhancement damage red tool for pro marksmen and a stat checking top who cant really win or lose top lane. So much fun riot.
Well, Yi was considered a carry because Juggernaut was a carry, that's basically why, and in all honesty i would rather have it go back to that, where not all carries had to be ranged and not all tanks had to be melee and so on
It's interesting to watch this video now with the 8.2 changes just out, particularly with minions now responding to targeted spells. Made me think about just how normalized some of these problems are because, wow, minions ignoring enemy damage like that was a huge problem and I was just so used to it I didn't even REALISE it was an issue until they mentioned they were fixing it. And, yeah, it's baffling that Irelia is getting a rework before Mundo does, jesus christ. Great video, definitely subbing!
As someone that played from beta to season 2 (Though I stopped playing, as it was a terrible addiction.): 1. Early on, Riot still thought of League of Legends as DOTA like, so the champion's kits tended to mimic characters from DOTA. (Plus, the early developers did come from working on the original mod.) 1a. DOTA has higher variety with lanes, due to different mechanics that lol doesn't have (trees, teleportation scrolls, strong level one stuns, denying creeps, and objectives, bigger map, ability to kill Roshan level one, more active and stronger items, etc.) 1b. Examples: tri-lanes versus one lanes or dual lanes. Junglers, and mid laners were expected to be able to gank lanes at will. 2. Each one of those irrelevant characters, had been nerfed from an overpowered state. Mordekiser used to be able to kill 1v2 ,consistently, at level 6 with few or no items. In addition, his skills had ridiculous ap ratios, his passive tended to reach the maximum with one spell cast, and spell vamp items were easier to get. Skarner (item proc'ing with a lower cool down ultimate), Mumu (lower ultimate timer with longer stun, with the fun "Holy Hand Grenade" build), Volibear (his old passive used to work like a Doctor Mundo ultimate, so became unkillable. One of his skills used to scale off of his health value.), and others had something that pushed them over the top; they weren't useless till the nerf hammer hit. 3. Riot's marketing philosophy tends to push the newer champions while ignoring the older ones.
Nepthar maokai is currently an incredibly toxic champion to lane against, due to the fact that he has completely free harass on his E Q combo. There is zero way to actually avoid it if you're playing a melee champ and trying to CS due to the cast range of it. And, because Aftershock is so strong, there's no way to win trades with him.
No, the logic of Timmy, Johnny and Spike can be applied to any game - even League. Timmy example: a guy who loves playing hot girls in League. Johnny example: person who likes to play off-meta picks with weird builds. Spike example: player who plays only meta champs with only meta-favored builds.
If you make the game that doesn't entertain the idea of players playing in their best interest and achieving their goals in the optimal ways then you are a moron.
Its 2019 and Riot Remade Mordekaiser, he is so OP thay 2 weeks after the remake we was just on the ground again, people explored it in every lane, except for ADC, (because no range), still mordekaiser since the nerf he is as played as the old one, 1-200 games.
You forgot Fiddlesticks. Is he a jungler? Probably. But you can play him also Midlane and Support. And he is not even good in one of these roles. Sure, he is fun and you can learn the jungle with him, but Annie is a simple learning tool too and can carry hard! Please rework this poor lonely Scarecrow...
I play dota i dont even know why am i here lol but this is weird. I mean, is like "nobody plays mage or warlock anymore because they are old meta" wait... what? How can a game not modify its content to still be playable atleast? Is this pokemon TCG that old cards are obsolete and shit? Omegalul
Ok, you're just delusional if you think league is more skill reliant than Dota. As someone who plays both and prefers league, Dota is much harder. It's also no secret that it's much more balanced, shown by how over 90% of the heroes were picked at the most recent International. However, I'll agree with you that a lot of the people that bitch and moan over reworks are butthurt noobs that can't adapt.
@@manhhungtran6541 Super easy to use abilities? Check Invoker he has 10+ abilities and require a lot of skill to combo and remember not mentioning that majority of dota items are also usable, dota 2 is the hardest MOBA if not one of the hardest games to ever exist in terms of strategy skills, league is NOTHING compared to how hard dota is, you need at least 600 hours to not suck. You CLEARLY know NOTHING about dota
Mundo is a weird one... I started playing mundo in my solo queue games and his damage is nuts. Building full tank, Mundo can survive a 1v5 and walkout with a couple kills. His natural damage and scaling with tankiness make him a ridiculous late game god and an early game bully. I might be wrong but I think I've heard you say mundo is literally unplayable but I disagree extremely strongly... He's not an engager though. He's more of an off tank like Darius or Renekton who depend on being focused on and being front line in team fights.
He's what you call a support tank, he's not there to do damage as much as be a target that needs to be avoided. He doesn't zone like Darius or Renekton who are high DPS melee bruiseres, he works more like a Blitz, Thresh, or Braum. A somewhat tanky individual that provides just enough CC and damage to be worth focusing down, but focusing him is a mistake. Like I play in silver games (cause that's where my friends are) but I've demolished diamond top laners, even Teemos, with Mundo, he's probably the best top laner I have in my bag. But I really do prefer to bring him support. He's got his analysis completely wrong, he assumes that champions that work in multiple positions or builds being a problem, but the common denominator for the champions he listed... and Irelia... are targeted abilities... Something Mundo doesn't have, and thus why Mundo is an old champion that is still very powerful but not in a state of being broken. There's a LOT of Irelia bias here, he's ignoring other problematic heroes like Annie or Janna. Or why Taric and Yorick got reworked already. Targeted abilities are an old broken mechanic, and all the champions that have them, including Irelia, need to be reworked eventually.
I agree. Although I find it strange all the focus that seems go around annihilating targeted abilities. I'm certain irelia's rework is going to keep her Q but make her E have a closer to Darius's cone but smaller. There's a huge dillema around what riot is doing to these dueling champions too. Mundo could be considered a dueler in my opinion- his damage is absurdly naturally high. Personally I'd change that support tank role into more of a Bully role. Different from tanky supports in a sense that Mundo's absurdly powerful late game scaling puts him in a state like old poppy, but better. Even in higher elo games (I'm in gold 1), my mundo stays a problem for the enemy even in 1v3-5 situations.
The problem with targeted abilities is just that the counterplay is unfun. If there's a Nunu there's just a circle around him where to counterplay him you have to stay out of. Yeah, it's not broken, it's no overpowered, yes there's counterplay to it. But going up against a targeted ability is just anti-fun. This is why reworks have been happening, Why did Taric's stun get changed? Because getting punished for getting to close to him was not really fun. Sion's ball of fuck you was changed to a minion kick skillshot... or AOE knockup... To be fair too much really changed to say that it was changed into anything. Targeted abilities have a place, but not in poke abilities like a Teemo blind or Nunu snowball. It's not ideal for tanks movement abilities like Irelia's dash or Maokai's root. It's better balance for somebody like Katarina (E) where making it a targeted ability makes it less powerful, because jumping in on people in such a way is suicide if you're not careful. Most of the reworks have done just that, remove targeted abilities, or in the case of Kat's Q making you have to follow up with an extra mechanic to get the full damage. There's other unfun mechanics in the game, but targeted abilities is really just a relic of the early days where champion design and game design was still using minions with different effects to make new abilities and whether or not something was fun to play against was rarely on the minds of the rioters. Yeah, Soraka just out sustaining your lane isn't fun to deal with either, Irelia getting a stun because you're winning isn't fun, Pantheon getting to block a towershot to dive you early isn't fun, getting blinded isn't fun. There's other issues with these champions, but targeted abilities has been historically a prime target to get rid of because from a dueling perspective they feel unfair because there's no (fun) counterplay to them. When the counterplay to something is "don't play" you've got a problem.
I'm not sure I agree, I think I would prefer if they left the older (not quite up to speed) champs untouched, except sometimes adjusting their numbers, when they get broken with item reworks. I can understand, that Riot from a business perspective has to release new champs a lot, and I think its fair, that they are sligthly stronger than older ones (again: business perspective, similar to mtg cards). The perfect place for old champions would be - in my opinion - to be pocket picks, that nostalgics like myself can take and do alright with, without them being broken. I dont like many of the reworks of old favorite champs (morde, shen). I agree with your point on uninteractive champs though, luckily, teemo received a rework, so lets see, how that will turn out.
Not sure I agree - the idea that a champion isn't specialised towards a certain role, in my opinion, isn't the limiting factor. I have a lot of experience with Dota 2 and there are hardly any characters who can only be played in one place, and that game has a much more inclusive pick rate of all heroes, even up to competitive level. The meta that evolved, (i.e. who goes where, which roles are viable etc...) is the problem - Riot made the design decision that they would design the game and champions towards this meta, rather than balancing it in whatever way they wanted and having the meta change and adapt around it
idk why i found this video since i've quit lol since 2014. but i agree with you. in dota we have kunkka and mirana who can fit every single role in the game depending on the drafts. i played lol around season 2 and 3. back in the days when i still played lol every ADC no matter what champion it was would just build bloodthirster -> phantom dancer -> infinity edge without thinking about other possibilities because there were none. idk whether that is still the case today but in dota even item build for a certain hero can be different depending on your opponents (mostly) and your teammates (to some extent). item choices were already more boring in lol but then riot decided to make it even more boring for me. master yi back in my days could be played as AD or AP but riot reworked him to remove the viability of AP master yi. lulu top was viable but then riot nerfed her to the point she couldn't even be played as a supp anymore. there were other examples about champions who if being picked, made you wonder whether they would be played as AD or AP but then riot just removed one possibility they didn't like. i played both dota and lol during 2012-2014 depending on which friends asked me to play first but i quit lol ever since and stick with dota because i like more flexibility and more unpredictability.
I don't know about Dota 2, but in Lol there aren't champions who can only be played a one role, not even Fiddlesticks if you ask me, maybe some picks aren't competitive but that doesn't mean they can't work (Ahem MF support) and don't forget we have the so called "specialists" who can go any role, Teemo, Kennen, Quinn or Kayle. In my humble opinion, people flaming for your Garen jg or Veigar adc only makes the game more frustrating and toxic. Who wants to play a game like that?
I actually hated most of Riots reworks and I couldn't disagree more with you in this video. I've been playing the game since 2010 and most of the champs they "reworked" felt extremly nostalgic to me previous to the rework. Yes, champion kits like old sion's or old poppy's were old and janky, but not unsalvagable. With Sion or Galio in specific it felt like Riot just deleted the champion and created a new one. It doesn't feel like a rework, it feels like a replacement, which is sad to me in particular since I mained him and played him almost every game with a jungle or top lane AD build. So when Sion got reworked I began playing old Poppy more and more until she became my main. Then they "reworked" her and almost her entire kit changed including her really unique ult. Then, no joke, I went ahead and mained another under rated champion at the time, Galio, and used him as a mid and support. I always knew he would be one of the next ones on the chopping block, but secretly I hoped they wouldn't change too much of his kit. Maybe make his windblast a dash instead so he has a better engage for his ult? I dunno. But then instead they again deleted the old one and made a new one with a completly different build. I don't think Riot should delete champions and replace them with slicker, newer versions with an entirely different kit just because they are underplayed or don't have a "modern" kit. That's why I pray they won't give this treatment to champs like Mundo or Volibear.
Youre probably one of the few here who thinks like that. Only one rework which is complete garbage is ryze's. Maaaaybe LB too, and thats why they reverted it back completelly. All other is fine. I myself dont like katarinas second rework or irelia, because i was actually playing those champs before rework, but fact is they actuallyl needed it. Atleast katarina for sure, it was just too retarded, you press E then W + R. E+W already takes half of your hp, without any posibility to counterplay it. Then R finishes you if youre not fast enought to flash away/cc. If you are fast enought then you just run away and 30 seconds later katarina again has ult for the same engage without any counterplay.
@@pauliussipavicius4658 I agree with you, those champs needed a rework (besides Irelia imo, I thought her kit was fine). But champs like Katarina didn't get outright deleted, just her kit revamped. She still feels mostly the same as before which can't be said for champs like Galio or Urgot.
@@WhitemageJones Thats because they had different problems. Katarina was totally playable and fine, problem was that she had no counterplay. E+W and half ur hp gone instantly. Not a skillshots, no cast time, nothing. Meanwhile galio or urgot was unplayable champions, who had no place in teamfights, and barelly had any place in laning aswell, thats why they had to change them completelly.
She's his bae. It seems to me that his gripes are against old champs that he has trouble laning against: Teemo, Pantheon MAOKAI. Who's kits, in my opinion, dont seem nearly as bad as Irelia's. She gets stomped, but can come back because she can literally build full tank and kick out true damage with a free stun if she's losing the fight.
Mordikai is all about his match ups. He not going to beat all top lane champs but built good he can stomp nasus, tryna, renkten top just to name a few.
The old champions are failing? Dude the entire game is a unbalanced mess. Instead of rewarding skill it's not about picking champions who can delete people instantly or just have completely broken kits. I miss the old days of League where everything didn't have a flash or a dash and you actually had to think about how to beat your opponents instead of face rolling the keyboard. Also nerfing the ability to snowball was [edited] in dota snowballing is balanced by death timers and gold loss on death which is the right way to do it in league there is no draw back other than the death timer and they made it shorter and unlike in dota where its based off level its based of time in league A level 18 hero should not have the same DT as a level 5 one And the mana costs in this game are broken, ww's q that did nothing cost a third of his mana at level 1, yet, something that's far more useful like ez's q costs nothing
dont forget how hp/mp regens much more faster here than dota. i played both for a significant amount of time and something that i cant miss is how ppl would scould me for not spamming hook/graps as a supp, yet that is not something to be seen at dota since you have less than 1,0 mana reg/s for most heroes. im talking about this because with low mana regen the game kinda forces you to not spam skills, instead to look for the best opportunities or at least to stack on some consumables (wich btw worns off when hitted by champions so you cant spam potions in mid battle). another thing that i hatted so much about league was when they forced a change for support role - back in my days (S2, S3) you would pick a support for its utility package, be it something like lulu, sona, soraka or something more tanky like the mentioned volibear, thresh leona and blitz. also even mage or skill spammers characters wouldnt be able to burst anyone (they would deal some intial good damage but because their gold networth wasnt as good as other roles their powerspike would fall, yet they would still be amazing buffing, debuffing, healing or even hooking/grabbing). then for some stupid reason (being that ppl was upset for not being able to kill as supp or to not have itens other than wards or +gold per time stuff) they decided that having a secondary mage/tank for the team was way better than having supps being supps.....
i would disagree with you. riot has been pushing the "meta". you have been able to report people for not going with the meta for a long time. i stopped playing because of the "meta" the game is about strategy and tactics; riot games took the strategy and through it out the door for sells!!!
*cough* malphite *cough* Joking aside, he's just as old some of the champions that he mentioned and has little to no place in League of legends for the time being because his kit suffers from being old as hell. And his lore is old lore, like Old pre retcon Summoners still exist lore deal Even Necrit mentioned it and he makes a good point. I hope they push his rework soon as possible because the new runes and his kit is just as unhealthy in the long term right now.
He is a fun champ and with new runes specificly ultimate hat and others he is beginning to make a comeback and i think if they buffed him they would make him insanely op he is already tanky as heck
I never knew that people didn't knew where to play Maokai when he first got released. I pretty much only saw and played him jungle back then (I bought him immediately when he got released). Also you make it sound as if Teemo is so strong....I mean....he either is or he isn't. Just depending on who he faces. A good Darius for example can grab him since Teemos basic attack range is within Darius his grab range
Dude, your videos are amazing! I am not an old League of Legends Summoner, but I'm trying to learn more about the game, and your videos are pure information! Thank you for sharing. It makes the hole thing much more connected and interesting! \o/ #Joe
Morgana needs a lighter touch than Kayle, Beyond Kayle's ult all of her abilities need to be rebuilt from the ground up, with maybe the on hit buff being the least touched (instantaneous hits needs to go though)
I loved her when she countered mid assasins, but then riot decided that zed needs to oneshot ppl he ults on so lets nerf her ult, then decided she also did too much dmg(less than zed) with her q + lichbane so nerf ratio from 100 to 60, then lets nerf lichbane and buff everyone who used it except kayle and finally lets nerf her e from 40 to 20 which they later luckily given back.
i dont think teemo is that unhealthy for the game... he might be hard to deal with in lane but if you play it right you wont die and even with the cs disadvantage you can still be more useful in teamfights than teemo is. also you can easily shut him down with the help of your jungler since he doesnt really have a good escape, making him an enemy where you need teamwork (which isnt that bad i think). also, most junglers would like to gank teemo because they hate him just as much as you do :) you just have to communicate a bit
The problem with teemo is that you can either easy win lane (if you pick the right champion) or there is nothing on this earth you can do to even survive lane, not even think of winning it (if you pick the wrong champ), counters should exist in game but entering the game knowing you 100% lost lane in champ select is really toxic for the game.
Teemo isn't op _overall_ , but there's no denying he's extremely frustrating and unfun to play against in lane, thus _unhealthy_ for the game. Being able to still win the game despite having _at least_ one third of your cs denied in lane (often much more), doesn't mean that half of the game wasn't the worst torture league has to offer. Also with the introduction of tank Teemo he's actually pretty decent in team fights and skirmishes now, as well as being able to split effectively since he still wins many 1v1 and doesn't die fast if collapsed upon.
I mean, all the complaints I hear about Teemo can be adressed towards Quinn and Kennen as well. Except both of these champs have imo much stronger kits.
DantedMaritu Neither Quinn nor Kennen do remotely as much damage as Teemo with on-target auto attacks in the laning phase (3 autos are half health in the early to mid laning phase against almost every champion) and neither do they have a 2 second hard counter blind against melee champions in order to completely close out every potential for a winnable trade. Plus he can kite most of them with his W. There's actually no other champion in the game other than Teemo that can do all this *and* has free wards that do damage. The introduction of the new Runes made Teemo do so much damage that he can now build full tank (become unkillable 1v1) without losing much of that potential. Everything about his kit is to just be as annoying as humanly possible and with the new Runes he's actually viable post laning.
i'm really glad this popped up in my reccomended, because i'd never actually thought of this before. this video's actually super well made. good job, dude.
Back then a carry was defined by having an attack steroid like an attack speed buff or a critical strike chance, something inherent to that champions that multiply your attack over attacks from abilities that do other things other than enhance your auto-attacks. The reason being they were the most efficient champions to stack all that gold onto. It was caried over from earlier Mobas where there was no Ability Power. Eventually Rito started making better expensive items for AP champions to do actual damage and scale with a percentage AP multiplier to kind of cement the AP champions that had taken over them mid lane for a few months by that point.
138* champions, Ivern is just a moving tree type minion
141 kai sa and pyke
@@aleksandarkitonjic3906 they werent released at the time he made this comnent
It's one of the best junglers lol
@@gc6171 lol no
@@BrunnieUrsi yep it is, it has its own mechanics that make him tilting for the enemy jungler, with the smite you can literally steal the enemy blue buff in like 5 seconds. You don't have to expect to go full AP, you're the secondary support that should go with tanky/AP. Normally in silver IV really few people known him and they're all scared af and normally waste a lot of flashes LMAO
Skarner so irrelevant and outdated he was not even mentioned. Great vid!
Saitama new buffs makes him strong
He's viable but he's just... Boring. I bet that skarner's otp just play him beacuse his R
whos skarner?
They really need to remove the spires from his kit and get him a more meaningful passive that doesn't require gimmicks or something. Also, why the fuck is his E no longer dealing damage? Even so, they could at least increase its range or width.
or "gotta go fast" fastest champion in the game with the rammus change".
The biggest example for me was Lulu, because people would abuse Lulu top or mid she was nerfed to the ground to the point where support Lulu was unviable for like 2-3 seasons.
that was one of the reason I quit league. Lulu mid was so fun to play, I miss her.
@@OsmoZchannel
Lulu mid was cancer. No skill required to play that. No counter play either. Im glad its gone
@@OsmoZchannel Long range point and click E which deals a lot of damage + q which you can use from any range after you use E. Yeeeah thats a total bullshit to play against. Imagine if ziggs Q was point and click...
"don't restrict a champion to a role" AND NOW THAT IS ALL THEY DO, they are so HYPER-specific about which lane a hero WILL go in that any other strategies will be nerfed into the ground and it just sucks
i miss AP Yi
what about pyke? he was 'designed' to be a support, but people pick him jungle and even toplane. Kaisa was fit to be an ad carry, maybe even a midlaner, but people play her in the jungle too. its not like a champion can play only the 1/2 roles they have, it depends on the meta and the current state of the champion, his optimal build path and the game overall. nothing is fixed is what i meant to say.
the pure dmg ult gives full kill gold on top of the assist gold to the adc youre supporting and he has a hook, a stun and benefits from being in bushes. what about him isnt designed as a support
@oyche he barely does any damage even full ad build. His kit says assassin but his actual gameplay screams support.
@@PravoslavniMetal listen to what you just described. Hook and Stun? Good CC = Good Ganks. Ult gold = Snowball lane ganks. Bush presence = Jungle pressure (bushes all over the jungle) His kit was designed well for supp and jg
I'll give my game designer perspective on why: Power Creep.
The game evolved, a lot, over the years and new mechanics are now integrated into the game so there's a lot more space for possibilities and stronger heroes. That's mainly why Riot is remaking all the old champs over time, because they need to get them higher up in the curve else they'll be dropped into completely obsolete territory and that's not good for the longevity and variety of the game.
Power Creep usually doesn't mean that the older heroes are far stronger. Which about half the video was about.
@@Cudgeon Which also isn't true because newer champions are almost always more popular before older champions are reworked (and or tweaked / balanced to keep up).
How to get a free singed skin: Change into colorblind mode.
mah, its just a chroma
my face was the same as your profile pic after reading this
339 likes for such a comment..wow
Riot's logic :
We don't like to force meta. Wait, is this guy playing singed support? and he has more than 2000 games? And a legitimate win rate of 50%+ ? WE BETTER BAN HIM
Legitimate win rate of 50%+. but at what level of ranked?
diamond
So not even a good off meta troll pick like AP Shaco top in the hands of that one dude who is master/challenger a lot with it. Name slips my mind right now.
Yes, thanks. I guess my point is because he's never actually hit challenger Riot sees him as a troll. Admittedly a high level troll, but a troll nonetheless.
cancerous company
Every time you said "weird builds, too much freedom" I only heard "fun". League became very annoying with set in stone meta when ghostcrawler got into riot. HE is the cancer. I'm glad he's out but the damage is done.
The introduction of Yasuo changed everything... if you really think about the history of the game. Every champ since has been an effort to counter-balance the movement that came with the introduction of Yasuo and every subsequent champ.
Compared to janna (who had supposedly mastered air techniques) yasuo does way too many things. Yasuo was indeed the first released champions that had ALL the weaknesses covered. Its why he and camille get free shields. It doesn't make any sense in the kit but it just makes them more durable (and then they proceed to nerf base hp!) Kaisa doesn't even need to create anything herself to use ult she can just follow ally cc!! Then they give her bonusses for getting enough att speed/ad/ap to ensure she's a late game monster, but she has to be proactive early as well! Meanwhile janna's kit is lazy and unimpressive (for a wind mage).
"Don't restrict a champion to one role"
Yuumi: *laughs in support*
Yeah, and there is Pyke now with no wave clear
pyke is an amazing jungler though
I play yuumi top.
AND 50% of the time i win
You use to get banned for playing a champ in the wrong roll
Remember when rtb lost to a yuumi
I think another big issue is how extremely loaded newer champs kits are compared to older ones. Kayn floats through walls and can change forms that drastically alter his gameplay. Xayah and Rakan have special interactions that give them an edge when playing together, not to mention Zoe's E has like 11 different effects. Nunu shoots an iceball and.. well.. thats about it for reliable moves and annie just runs up and facerolls her moves in any order she feels atm
her E slows, Sleeps, Extends range through walls, leaves a trap on the ground, and it boosts the damage of the first hit to break the sleep. W just picks up summoners and shoots lasers around when you use one
You just mentioned 3 effects
Can you even count or...?
I completely agree, the key difference is that while they all have 5 abilities, in the newer champions each ability has a dozen unrelated effects. Its fine if its the champions gimmick but if you are gonna do it on every champions it simply makes the 'normal' champions irrelivant
Yea exactly, with things like rakan/xayah having extra utility together, kayn having 2 different ults that have drastically different playstyles, and champs like zoe who just have a whole lot of effects on one ability, it makes the older ones like annie or fiddle looks so stale
1:42 - Rare footage of our old hero, Urgot
MeGusta RO urgod*
Our Lord and savior
He was one of main mid, counter of ALL ad assassins and even some ap ones. Anti-assassin and anti-ad, I even used him in ranked vs zed (hard won lane, then he got fed in other lanes)
Main counter of zed and a lot of other assassins... Now i can't even touch him.
I used to main Urgot toplane until they "updated" him, now he feels sh*t to play (like the long cooldowns or that stupid passive) and has almost no good meta match ups :S
Why would Riot rework the ancient champions when they could spend their time making more Lux and Jinx skins?
#feelsbadman
My boi rito fixed this shit with the nunu rework
I'm pretty sure the art department and the game design department work separately.
@@mariosblago94 it's not about it, it's about that riot invests quite more in aesthetic things, that obv give em profit, than in mechanisms to maintain the nature of the league.
It's like a government, the education and sport department arent conducted by the same people, but we can agree that the government role here is to decide how much money it is going to invest and in which department it's going to be, same as Riot in our case.
They don´t even make new ideas. They just copy splasharts from other games. (They copied a Tracer and Pharah lookalikes to skins I don´t remember. Pharah splashart and I think Project Vayne or Kaisa´s skin had a splashart that even was eliminated from the internet).
I want a new Karthus skin
2009
We don't restrict champions to a single lane, have fun and experiment guys!
2019
PYKE TOP BAD PYKE BE SUPPORT PYKE NO MINION CLEAR >:(
lol
pyke was way to op
last patch: buff pyke to high heaven and cause him to never be played due to constant bans
@@Florianpimpf lul he's still op as support
@@icantthinkofaname2722 ye he gives way too much gold
The only champ where you can still go every lane is Teemo.
But he’s so toxic no one plays him
Pianta aka tenmo player
Zelatram yeah I watch him as well :p
Zelatram yed
Luca Shi I’m a teemo main
Volibear was actually made for Dominion. Hahahaha, never change riot. Never change.
Katana Collector guess I need to try it out as a big time bear lover
Only if Dominion still existed
The irony of Dominion is it had two lanes. The Top Lane Meta In Bot, and the rest of the map.
dominion was so good
@@sejemandhaha guess what? they removed it phahahahaah
3:00, back when Mordekaiser was the strongest champion out of any iteration of all champs in leagues history.
seriuosly, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
Well every new champion has an untargetable and a ridiculous dash so yeah a champion like annie cannot keep up with that.
every champion now has built in sustain, mobility, and cc. For example, you have yasuo introduced as a midlaner, and he got 2 defensive abilities because "he needs to survive poke", when it was his main weakness. zed is also like this, but more safe compensing the sustain. then reworked ryze, wich is same bullshit as old ryze that was deemed toxic, but more mobile and spikes earlyer, with an added teleport because reasons. Kled on the top has damage, a passive that is pretty much an anivias egg on steroids, then cc, and sivirs ult combined with a hecarim charge... Big engage if you ask me. he would have been labeled as overloaded in his kit if he was released anytime sooner. rakan shouldnt have healing... even jhin has hard cc and a movespeed aid. kayn has dps, built in sustain, aoe hard cc in a short CD (for a bruiser or assassin) and mobility. i dont think i need to talk about gnar... or the fact that they "fixed" the juggernauts by just adding stuff on their kits (the 0 mana cost ult on darius and his self heal Q, or garens armor reduction and villain mechanic).
new champions just do what older champions did, but better and safer.
Yes they have more tools, specially mobility but there is stil old simple champions that are super strong at what they do. Garen is a perfect example, simple kit, very tanky and high base damage for a tank. Trundle is also kind of simple but is a monster duelist that doesn't need fancy mechanics to do his job.
they just made ryze bad with the reworks, the very old ryze (before all reworks) was really well balanced and strong in teamfights
Nowadays they are getting rid of every option. Old League was fun, experimental and variable. Today nearly every situational item is removed from the game, every support buys a redemption and ardent censer, every bruiser buys a drakhtar and so on.
Drakhtar on a Bruiser?
Frantic Nova, Pyke is a good support and I don’t see like anyone take a redemption with him
michael knupp
Because Pyke is a damaging support, you don't put redemption on Brand, nor Lux, nor Veigar.
Draktharr on bruisers?
every bruiser builds a trinity not drakhtar
What annoys me the most is how Riot simply made Mordekaiser even weaker than when he was a mid laner and just left him there without any plans to fix him
I really miss old ap mordekaiser
This is DK Morde from the future, with the inclusion of Shield Bash and Dark harvest he can be destructive at mid and top and bot can also be great if the following supports are with him, Morgana, Neeko, Pyke, Leona, Thresh, Blitzcrank and New Aatrox, try Morde and Aatrox bot you Will NOT be disapointed
Probably, the easiest way to fix Mordekaiser, is to introduce a spell steal mechanic: he really only worked when you could get enough sustain from spell steal.
So, if we added a passive to his ultimate that adds a small percentage, something like 5, 10, 15, spell steal to his regular spells, then Mordekaiser could come back.
@@youngthinker1 no need, the dark harvest shield bash update have officially made him a solid pick, maybe not meta but Still, you can go summon Aery for maximum poke, or dark harvest to survive the late game, but Riot have said that he is getting reworked again, maybe after Sylas comes
@@dragonknightmordekaiserthe7830 the problem is...well... how to put it. .. in germany we call it clunky.
On the opposite spectrum, some of the new champions (Kayn, Camille, Zoe) have WAY too much utility. To the point where there's no middle balance. You either have an OP champion or a weak gutted champion. Kindred was nerfed to the ground.
Kayn has honestly been pretty balanced since his release, only getting small number changes here and there.
Camille ehh no, Kayn nope, Zoe, god pls lets ignore that abomination of a champion.
Kindred is still strong,when I see her in ranked I cry to the ground...
Don't forget Azir
Red Kayn has tons of utility and is unkillable. Blue Kayn will make it 4v5 if you dare to blink while walking around the map. (even if you are 5 he can one shot with QW and flash auto another and ult him to QW behind and E escape.)
For me, I dont think that riot is forgetting about champions,but rather that they dont know what to do with them, and maybe waiting for better ideas to improve them.
I just don't see how they went from releasing one champion each month to not being able to rework more than one champion in a year.
Arthur Rosa think of it this way we have all these champs that people say need a rework but the problem is doing so without over tuning them or make them just as bad as before or just like teemo were they suck at most things but the thing they are good at they are op at doing it
Arthur Rosa the problem with reworks is they don’t wanna change them completely but find ways to make them work but still be similair cuz they know many love their champs... so it’s kinda our fault that they don’t just start from scratch except for exceptions like yorick who was a lost cause
Think of all the art for skins, programming, and testing that goes into a rework. It is legitimately easier to start from scratch as you don't have to uphold any preexisting identity.
Arthur Rosa because the quality and development time in champion massively increased after they took a long time to design thresh and he was very successful so they decieded to take longer to make champs and they are much better
Yo, your vids are actually quite interestings, keep it up man
Just a mini correction, @gbay99:
They still haven't "categorized champions by role." Those are actually the top champs played in that role by people who queue for that role (obviously tweaked or capped by hand slightly since they only show so many AD carries). That's why Ezreal almost immediately showed up in the Jungle tab and why Quinn and Graves do not show up in the botlane tab.
If they introduced a more aggressive version of Ravenous Hunter, added physical damage to the shield of Nullifying Orb, or reintroduced a mastery to help last hits or pushing on mages like season 4's Arcane Blade mastery, and people started playing Cassiopeia, Viktor, etc. botlane, you can bet they would show up in that botlane tab within a few days.
What about Kindred, with her kit she isnt really fit for another role than jungle. Well it might work but its definetly not the best
Karthus for a while was showing up in every tab except support for a while, and some champions do not appear in any of the categories.
It's based off pickrate and it's a suggestion, the basic idea is to help people that don't normally play a role to get an idea of what other people do in that role. Most Top mains are not clicking on the top tab, they're more likely clicking on Mastery or Favorites. The only exception you'll find is ADC's in which you might find ADC players struggling to find certain ADC's in that "bot" list.
Riven and Yasuo probably won't be changed, because being unbeatable cancer is part of their design
And yet they are still almost never played in pro matches lol
EE ROCKK I find yasuo is killable in lane but it's stupid that he can come back from anything.
Riven unbeatable? *laughs in Thresh*
so how shit at league do you have to be to complain about riven and Yas?
If you're complaining about Riven you're a Yasuo main and if you're complaining about Yasuo you're a Riven main?
What is an Aatrox?
underated champ
i heard it a couple of times in the past. you know what though? i saw a new champ today, it looked like a scorpion, i think its name was Suckrner? something like that
Rage Runner I think it's Snickers Riot doesn't care about trademarks smh
Aatrox is a godlike powerhouse that is basically immortal!
Provided you play him in toplane, versus a melee champion, that is not a tank, and does not build bramblevest, nor builds executioners calling. And you steal farm from your jungler, and the enemy team has 0 CC or slows, and god forbid the enemy team has an ADC... But the most important thing about playing as Aatrox is knowing how to stack your bloodwell and how to use your Q. You see, your Q CC's yourself for like a second before you jump at an enemy location with such an incredible speed that you can open up a beer during the animation. This means that your Q is an engage only, as you literally die if you try to use it to escape. But that is OK! As you revive from death! Only to die again instantly... but eh at least you tried...That is if ofcourse your 5 stack bloodwell doesnt drop off after 5 seconds because your E is on an half hour cooldown.
Ok that might be a bit much... your E doesnt have an half hour cooldown... its more like 20 minutes... and the animation is so slow that you can literally outrun it with boots of swiftness... But that is all good! because the shape of his E works in such a way that 2 weird lines go towards a target to deal dmg! note that these lines can in fact be blocked seperatly by stuff like yasuos windwall! Not that it does any extra dmg for hitting both lines tho... so no idea what riot is thinking but YEAH! fuck EYAH! 2 LINES!
Now prior to his rework Aatrox had both AD and AP scalings, making it so that he could actually do something against someone building armor. Riot removed this and made him a full AD scaling champion! With the exception of his ult ofc... that scales with AP because fuck it...
But yeah, if you play Aatrox, and do something funny like build Crit on him... then you can kill the ELISE that has ganked you over and over and over and over again in 3 hits late game...
I fcking love playing Aatrox tho :D
There is nothing more satisfying than killing a Yasuo/Riven toplane with an Aatrox over and over and over again.
To bad that both of those champions will choose to farm Aatrox rather than minions but still...
A miserable little pile of secrets
one of the biggest issues for older champs is that alot of them dont have dashes. more have a speed up or a jump on to the opponent. you kept bringing up voli he worked better before dashes became a bigger thing and every champ seemed to get an inherent dash/jump. yes he had issues before but alot of matchups he could make it work by being faster than the opponent. a lot of newer champs come with more inherent power than older champs. some of the pre/non reworked non assassin champs take either alot of set up (mf as an example) or they take a little bit longer to kill you straight up. i can say for at least voli his release was literally right before a shift in champion concepts with the 2 following being fizz and ahri ( i remember that line up as i joined right before fizz was introduced but after voli was out), with the shift to lane focused roles champs start to get phased out and every older champ has to be on the chopping block to get a rework ( some more than others). those are just a few of my thoughts on it.
Not only did they slap dash after dash on newer champions, they also nerfed the mobility counters from the game (point and click or instant CC). Without a direct counter to mobility you either have it or loose.
Volis Q is exactly his problem. Mages have a huge focus on control now while a lot of adcs and assassins have high mobility. Going rawr and running at someone in a straight line doesnt cut it anymore, not to mention his kit is so unfocused. His Q and E make him seem like a jungle tank while his W and R are more for a fighter/split pusher which is a thing Gbay talked about alot in the video. He needs a rework so bad, most league sites have near zero data on him because hes so useless in almost every role
Voli worked so well because Warmogs gave 1.3k hp which scaled amazing with his skills.
The mobility creep has made it next to impossible to play non-mobile champs against the new characters from a dashing perspective. I agree with you. I am someone who plays Volibear randomly as a guilty pleasure pick. The biggest problem with Voli, other than being outdated and completely anti-synergetic with his own kit, is how he is too slow for the current game. He has to run at people and pray they don't have some kind of (generous) dash that lets them escape Voli. The only way you can even catch up to people with Voli is if they are immobile for some reason or somehow CC'd by something else... Even then, Voli's gameplay pattern is one-dimensional and needs an upgrade.
This is the issue. I was still playing during the period where it felt like every hero had to have a nuke on Q, a dash, and some sort of auto-attack-modifying passive. When you make every hero so essentially similar, either that kind of hero will suck, or everyone else will be left behind.
This is the nice thing about Dota. Practically none of the heroes of Dota have a non-ultimate mobility skill, and for those that do it's pretty much the defining feature of their skillset (AM, Nature's Prophet etc). Everyone else *can* access mobility via items. It's part of what makes heroes feel strong without having to stick to a certain template.
put a like for Voli's rework...
it's very easy to balance him. add movement speed and make him aor fear like ww's W
Maybe make him cc inmune while in ult? Or atleast slow inmune
i just miss AP scion back when he had mutiple 1.0 ap ratios
Double phantom dancer double bloodthirsters ie ad build
RIP
Yasuo is a champion who simply shouldn't exist.
Flavio Rodrigues u just bad
Your own minions empowering your opponent to that level is absurd.
@@SherrifOfNottingham well that's not unusual, what about Sion, syndra, nunu or any other champ who can interact with enemy minions well, are they broken too?
@@Fabian-pg3fg to a certain degree I find those champions slightly problematic, but compared to the power spike of your own wave of minions showing up near a yasuo they're really not worth mentioning. Its like giving sion a single ruby crystal or syndra a single amp tomb... while yasuo is getting a BF sword.
Champions like Neeko or Sion should be looked at for this problem behavior, but Yasuo is definitely the worst offender to an oppressive degree.
Say ever bronzie ever
Let's go back to non roles league!
What people forget is volibear WAS really strong at one point in League, At the start everyone thought Voli wasn't that good in s2 then Diamondprox played him competitively with success. Riot then changed Voli's Q from being a 1 point wonder ability with 80% movespeed increase at level 1 to something like 30/40% movespeed increase at level 1 scaling up to 80% increase with points into the ability. After that, I've literally never considered Volibear a strong pick since there in any meta, which is a shame, but he used to be a great ganker until Riot overnerfed that ability.
You know Gbay, you need to stop getting on yourself for being 'whiny' or 'negative' because your complains are legitimate, you are talking about actual real problems that Riot needs to address but just consistently seems to ignore, and it's hella frustrating.
Part of that is also is how many people in the community DON'T complain and just praise Riot for whatever it's doing no matter what it is, and don't turn their attention to issues the game has, you complain because you love the game, that's why you're criticizing it's issues.
Riot could be doing so much better, so I don't view it as being negative, I think you are one of the big voices saying things that NEED to be said.
I thought the long-running meme was about making fun of what Riot thinks is good game balance. Never has it been said that the league community does not complain enough about Riot.
I find his analysis of the problem to be flawed, as the common denominator with these "broken" champions is not "built for any role or position" but actually targeted abilities. Maokai was made to be a support tank, but like Braum he wasn't balanced around the idea of people taking him as a top lane bruiser, or mid or jungler. So when the player base got a hold of him they instantly tried the weird shit and his kit ended up with abilities that were fundamentally flawed. I mean shit, have you seen shit like support tank Zoe? It's kind of broken... and why is that? Because Riot didn't even bother to balance people doing that with her because they expected her to be a mid lane champion?
The fact is there's more evidence pointing to champions that were built for a specific role having balance issues than that of champions with flexible roles and builds being problems. Because there's far more champions that are great examples of "supports that are OP junglers" or "junglers that are broken tops" than there are examples of champions that were built with multiple roles or positions in mind being problems.
that's because most of the people who had issues left the game already so most of them don't exist anymore and this is what you are left with
It's funny, I came off of the video with the exact opposite opinion. That these were exaggerations and not necessary, and that the reworks are more about gamefeel than about just updating older characters.
To me, Teemo isn't that much of a problem. I can play him well, and I can play against him well. The only time he's that much of a threat is when the top laner doesn't be careful. So long as there's some coordination, his blind isn't enough to save him from more than one person.
Maokai is powerful, sure, but he's only got burst CC. Complaining about his and not Leona's is kinda counter-intuitive. A team can survive him easily enough, and without his team to back him up he's not able to roflstomp quite like other bruisers.
Overall while I totally get where this is coming from, the video I mean, I ultimately do not agree that this is as big a problem as it's made out to be. There's no characters in the game right now that are actually unplayable, and none that are a guaranteed win. It's teamwork and coordination that determines victory, with a heavy helping of skill in there as well.
Laning phase is important, but late game is when all the cards are on the table. This video only addresses the first part, and acts like it is all that matters.
What problem exactly? That there are some champions that are not pro viable? Why is that a problem? And what community are you a part of exactly? Since when does league playeys not complain about Riot?!?
There is literally no champion that isn't played by someone in ranked, so I don't really see the problem. There will always be champions favored by the meta, and so there will be champions played more often than others, but as long as every champ is getting played then it's all good
I just got to diamond 1 rank and I play fiddle on all 5 roles, despite riot trying to force him into support only. But I totally hate how items are so stupid now, each item and champion and ability does arbitrarily more or less damage depending on what you're using it on, according to riot's special rules. Just give the items raw stats and let the players use the items in creative ways, geezz....
Correction. The tab only says "Characters played the most in this role during last patch" or something like that, not "This character belongs here."
From what I understand Irelia is getting reworked cause she was released with the opposite effect. I wasn't playing back then, but from what I picked up from long time players was that she was an attempt from Riot to make a good non-tank melee champ (as most were seen as unusable at the time). The problem that came up was that they put so much stuff onto Irelia's kit to make this happen that she became a complete powerhouse that would earn the "Better nerf" meme because small changes to items or numbers could cause her to get way out of hand making her a balance issue.
Mostafa Ebrahim Sorta, she was designed as a melee assassin and expected to be built that way. Players however realised that with her great healing and true damage that you could simply build her full tank and still assassinate people.
As someone who mains wukong I am also frustrated that champions like irelia get reworked while wukong is getting completely ignored. Srsly aside from the buff he got in the preseason like every champion he wasn't even touched on. He lacks cc and sustain, to cause any meaningful dmg he has to use a lot of mana and with his assassain build his passive is pointless. Srsly if you play wukong against a tank or bruiser with low mana costs the only option is to roam and hope to get kills
Yeah the only hope if you want to play wukong as a bruiser is to try to abuse the extra range on your q to proc grasp levels 1 and 2 to get a health lead big enough that they can't fight back, if you don't do that then they just win and you become useless
Irelia needs the rework far more than most champs in the game. She needed it within weeks of being released.
Project DASKZ This build works well with him but you still have to agree with me that wukong lacks sustains, his mana costs are high for the dmg he deals even with electrecute and he has a lot of bad matchups espcially against champions with no mana like riven or even gareb or tanks with low mana costs abillities like maokai or ornn
Not a Wukong main, but I do play him a bit and had a 75% win rate on him last season (not many games though; I don't play that much ranked, and I usually don't blind pick wukong to avoid facing his tougher matchups; He's still my third most played top for the 2017 ranked season (4th if you count TT games)).
I'll agree his laning can be pretty lackluster at times, though he does have matchups where he can do well such as when facing a yasuo. Jungle is also doable, but the lack of sustain and pre6 ganking power makes it such that the early game is pretty terrible. Mid lane Wukong is also doable if you have magic damage elsewhere in the team, though I've only done it in normals. Nonetheless I wouldn't mind if wukong stayed the way he is. He has a strong lategame, he's fun to play, not being great lcs material means he can get away with a higher win rate than a good few other champions and he is pretty great on other maps like aram and Ascention.
The champion is good with bruiser items. Preferably Tri force first item. The problem is that his passive is the worst garbage I've ever laid eyes upon.
Cant help but be reminded of that Singed player who was banned for playing him as a support. Riot really has changed their philosophy on champion design.
True it wasn't just because he was playing singed, he used smite and focused on counter jungling and roaming. Most ADC's would report him because, even when he was in lane, the singed pick made it essentially a 2v1. He was officially banned for lack of communication I think, because he chose to play singed even though his team didn't want him to (meaning this could theoretically apply to any pick if it was off-meta enough). Even still, the fact that he climbed to plat with his weird strategy is enough proof that he shouldn't have been banned.
This entire video's premise isn't quite right. Riot's still making champions that are flexible in role; See Ornn's presence in literally every possible role and lane except ADC as an example. The design philosophy at Riot hasn't actually changed much at all. The problem is, instead, twofold.
First: Riot's gotten better at making more cohesive kits- every ability in Ornn's kit works together. See, back in seasons 1, 2 and early season 3, Riot had a stated goal of releasing a new champion every other week. This meant that they couldn't spend 1 month putting together a basic kit and then another month testing it. Instead they'd rush through champion and kit design to have SOMETHING out at the end of those two weeks. (Check the champion release pool for that time period and you can confirm it; nearly 24 champions released for the first two years, and then it slowed dramatically to maybe 5 champions) If you look at older, struggling champions like Aatrox, or the original Swain, you can clearly see they just aimed at having a kit that looked like it fit the champion, and then threw it together.
Second: Riot, for 3 whole seasons, was obsessed with mobility. If you look at the champion releases from season 3.5 to season 6.5 nearly every champion released has some form of mobility. Dashes became commonplace, as did movement speed steroids. Those that didn't usually had strong zone denial or CC.
As an example- Volibear, on release back in late season 2, was actually terrifyingly strong. People played him as a tank top, jungler, or support, because he was overbearing and hard to deal with for less mobile champions. And then the mobility wave hit and he became less and less relevant because it was harder for his linear 'running at you quickly' gameplay pattern to pan out when the target would suddenly fail to be there, or would just zone and kite him to death. So people stopped playing him because his primary engagement tool didn't work nearly as well any more. It's the same reason Udyr has only seen relevance in about 1 or 2 patches per season when Riot accidentally super-buffs one part of his kit or itemization.
To summarize: Older kits that weren't part of the initial release weren't designed with flexibility of role in mind- they just were rushed and not well designed period. As well, newer champions stress high mobility and fast paced gameplay that older, less mobile champions struggle against.
That kind of reiterates my point, really. Hanlon's razor is in full effect here. In this case, most of the failing champs were badly designed, not because of intentional design choices on Riot's part, but simply because Riot just didn't spend time developing champions that had cohesive and working kits.
And you can feel that when you play newer champions; Zoe's kit feels sleek and clearly plays well with itself because there have literally been months dedicated to putting together a solid champion. Nunu's kit is all over the place because Riot just slapped a few abilities together and called it a day.
I like your comment. It's a very well written and executed argument that I would myself agree with.
Teemo S1: *What a toxic champ you can't engage him nor escape from him*
Teemo S8: *OMG HE IS STILL TOXIC I WANT TO DIE*
Unnacurate, no people plays league if they started from the release.
Hehe Volibear is un”bear”able
I miss old league back I'd rather take revive back than a fking 4 dash every champions now
To be honest, I think the "nerf irelia" meme was more viral than the "teemo is the devil" meme at some point in LoL history.
yeah especially in season 3 lol ,thats all u heard
Comunnity: "Teemo os annoying" , "Nerf irelia"
Riot: hmmm, better rework ryze
random person
more like "better make yasuo"
Omg i forgot that meme.
Ah, the "better nerf Irelia" meme...
Did you just assume my lane preference?
The video doesn't come across whiny at all. I think it brings up a great point about the good and the bad older champions that most people could sense but never really gave much thought to.
Except the analysis is off base. For one Maokai was released as a support champion, but the playerbase had other ideas, this is the common trend for heroes that end up being in this "rework" position. Typically when you force a champion into a specific role you start to balance it around it. Then people who never get tired of trying new builds and lane comps take them elsewhere and notice that... holy shit Support Tank Zoe is broken.... or Braum top OP. The moment you try to cram a champion into a specific "slot" the more likely you'll make a balance change somewhere that makes them just disgustingly broken in a different role you weren't thinking of.
The reality is the common denominator for the shitty champions in need of rework, Irelia, Maokai, Teemo, Pantheon, and Nunu... Targeted Abilities.
Maokai was a support, Panth was a mid laner, Nunu was a jungler... Like these were the roles they were originally built for, so to say the "ambiguous roles" was the problem is not only an incorrect observation, for the champions that are the most problematic this claim isn't even true. I would say that there's almost an opposite correlation but not strong enough to base any conclusions off of. Gbay's a nice guy, but you can clearly see that he's an Irelia player ignoring the fact that she too has a targeted ability in her kit that is pretty much identical to Maokai's. The very criticism he made for tree guy is also valid for magnet girl... the reason it comes across as whiny is because he's basically complaining that they're changing Irelia instead of Maokai even though both champions have the same common denominator as all the other champions people complain about, targeted abilities. Sure she and Maokai only have one, while pantheon has 2, but still.
the reason why league champs have to be reworked(or left at a very low powerlevel) all the time cause if it doesn't fit a certain "archetype" they don't want it. If it's too unique they don't want it. They introduce tons of mechanics/combos that feel super forced (ryze rework, zilean rw), almost every new champ has this. Dota for example has much less of these combo mechanics, and yet manages to have a higher skillcap(not hating in lol most people who played both would agree), I've heard multiple sources cite easy of accessability and learning curve as a big PRO for leauge, I can't argue with that.it has no prescribed role for any hero or lane set-up, heck how could you if lanes can end up being either 1-1-3, 3-1-1, 2-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-1-2, 1-1-1(with either junglers or lvl1 roamers) there are not set item paths(only ONE jungling item and ONLY if you have smite).
This forced streamlining has advantaged but kills some of the game's fun.
There are numerous examples, but you don't "jungle" furion, he is not a "jungler" no hero is even remotely similar to him due to his 20(at lvl7, 0s at max level)s cooldown global twisted fate teleport(that doesn't warn anyone)
The difference between most characters in lol take most adcs play approximately the same, they are nuance differences, when in Dota you can only rarely directly compare two heroes since it's incredibly rare for spellsets to follow a given template like the lol (1cc 1mobility 1 damage spell many adcs have)
I just came back and played ~50 after quitting in 2012 those are my observations. It's easier to access due to everything being streamlined and I appreciate that easy relearning experience, but it has it's costs.
back when akali and irelia and nunu werent reworked. :( i miss those days
like if you agree
I stubbled into a nocturn who was really good against my team, he still lost tho once i learned how to play against him
old nunu and akali were poorly designed imo
All the way back, we didnt have Ad carry
the term adc was short for ad caster, pointing at those who build lots of ad but no attack speed, and deal damage via abilities more than aa; since caster roll s usually ap. Like pantheon, renekton, etc...
The real problem is that they were designed and balanced in the way dota heroes were. They had open ended kits with clear strengths and exploitable flaws with little mechanical counterplay. Counterplay was based on picking good matchups and finding ways to make your exploitable strengths counter their exploitable flaws.
+Squidcatfish or even Warcraft 3 heroes, for that matter.
original Dota is a WC3 mod so its the same thing.
Exactly. Since Dota kept this design it worked out, but once League switched then the old champions started getting problematic as the new ones were a lot more tailored for something specific.
The most forced thing that riot has done is restricting supports to babysit the adc.the potential for roaming supports is so good because of their kits but its frowned upon now a days in LOL community.. it is something dota i can tell hasnt ever looked down on.
The forgotten fiddle shall remain...
Title says "Why Leagues Oldest Champions are Failing".
Talks about the old days.
This doesn't answer why Leagues oldest champions are failing.
He tries to state that the reason is because champions were designed back then with the idea of not filling a specific role... but some of the biggest offenders of bad design are usually champions that were framed to fill a specific role that could be abused in places other than their expected role.
Like support champions like Maokai, Braum and Lulu all finding extreme success top, which when nerfed made them worthless as support.
In other words the thesis for this video is flawed, incorrect, and heavily biased.
Singed was designed to be played anywhere, with no specific role in mind, and for the most part (besides the proxying shit) he's not a problematic champion.
The bigger more common thread of design flaws is targeted abilities, champions with point and click abilities are typically the most annoying to play against. He only references this shortly with Maokai but glosses over it as though it's a side effect of Maokai "not being designed for a specific role" (when he was specifically designed to be a support)
Sherrif Yea his point doesn’t really make sense
Season 1 with anything goes bot duo was the best, me and my brother would go Sion Taric for a double stun double aoe burst combo for the hell of it.
"These champion are now stuck in a certain role"
*Quinn: Hold my Valor*
The reason why I relia is getting changed is due to he lack of “skillful” components in her kit. Her q is a point click dash that resets after unit killed, her w is a simple passive and active true dmg and healing on autos, her e is a point click stun, her ult is somewhat gimmicky for its either used to wave clear or duel. She does have SOME skill attached to her kit but recently with changes like to zilean and yorick, riot aims for more skill shot orientated and overall more forms of counterplay rewarding the player playing the champ and those vsing them. In whole I do agree with you on the state of these champs, And as you stated champs like teemo are so iconic that future changes aren’t likely. Been following your work for many years now, some of your videos may seem whinny but honestly I feel the same way at times. Older players such as ourselves played at a different time and despite all the changes we keep coming back to the game, so obviously we would see discrepancies in kits,etc. Enjoy your work keep it up.
The only teemo change that is needed to make him not so oppressive is to make his Q a skillshot. That's really it. That's how you basically fix these champions. Their biggest glaring issues are the targeted abilities.
Now the thing is, like for example, Katarina's shunpo... If you made her capable of jumping "anywhere" that would just be a massive buff. But to give a tank the abilitiy to dash to you and stun you like Irelia or Maokai, is a problem. With an assassin like Kat it's not so bad (the bouncing knives could stand to be an initial skillshot before the targeted bouncing) shunpo puts you wherever you jump to, so jumping into an enemy could get you killed. So yeah, I can understand a Kat or even Yi having a targeted "jump to" ability (though Yi's might want a _little_ tuning) because their positioning is basically compromised. Especially if they can't jump away as easy.
The fact is champions weren't broken or "bad design" because they were made to fit multiple roles, builds, positions, or teams, but because they have point and click targeted abilities. I found the video to be entirely whiny and ignorant of the real problems with these champions.
It's kind of funny when you think about it. Before, people were begging and pleading for Riot to keep some targeted abilities in the game just because that's the most reliable counter to mobility. No amount of ward-hopping and wall-jumping is getting you out of old Sion's or Taric's stun. People wanted these abilities kept intact so that they could keep mobility creep in check, but now mobility creep has become the name of the game and anything that hampers your ability to directly control your character without input on your end seems like bad design when it's no problem at all in other games, and it wasn't viewed as problematic even before in the same game.
I wonder what actually changed to drastically alter the opinion of what is and is not good design so much.
Nothing really changed, the people complaining about "mobility creep" are mostly just complaining. They're not thinking about what is good and bad design, these champions have been the root of complaints for a long time, and the complaints have become more numerous as people have gotten better at the game, to the point where hitting a person with 5 blinks isn't that hard.
When you mentioned the number one - way to exploit a champions kit in a role, the first thing that came into my mind was the old Gragas - a fat man that carried around his *'TOTALLY-NOT-ALCOHOL-MAGICAL-DRINKS'* was clearly meant to be a bruiser with sustain and crowd control - his original kit was a great example of Riot's weird kit design and number balancing and for this reason he was one of the only *TRUE HYBRID DAMAGE CHAMPIONS* in the game: the old Body Slam dealt magic damage....but had only an AD ratio and had AP ratio added later - his old Drunken Rage was an insane pure stats buff: whilst you took a swig you restored flat amount of mana, than after that you got a boost of * UP TO FLAT 70 AD AND 26% DAMAGE REDUCTION* - all of this while your Barrel Roll and Explosive Cask dealt both magic damage - but as they finally added the AP ratio on his Body Slam - people realized how ridiculously high AP ratios and base damage his kit had combined together - which lead to people playing him in mid and building Full AP as high burst mage with instantaneous burst damage you couldn't do anything about - you could literally delete almost anyone by just throwing out Q and R sequentially (also at this time his ult didn't have a fixed travel time and the animation speed was based on the throwing distance, so it could be thrown right beneath him for instant knock back and burst) - at this time his Barrel Roll could be popped instantly for some insane poke-/burst damage and it didn't have the 'ferment' mechanic on it - for a very long period of time he dominated midlane as this super tanky - high sustain - AOE burst mage, even Riot themselves acknowledged this and finally nerfed him justifying it by saying that Gragas had become a *"Tanky Barrel Sniper"* which wasn't clearly his intended identity..... After this his kit was updated and cleaned up by removing his weird AD scalings and AD boost from Drunken Rage - turning him into a bruiser-ish mage - his base damages and ratios were nerfed so that he wasn't played in mid anymore, but rather quickly found his new overpowered spot in *TOP LANE* as a *TANKY MAGE* thanks to his reworked Drunken Rage with its on-hit % Magic damage nuke having super-low cooldown and it initially had *NO MANA COST* ....this along with his updated Happy Hour healing him for % max health instead of just giving hp regeneration.... meant that he could basically out-sustain almost any lane opponent by essentially gaining free health back by spamming Drunken Rage... OR he would just poke them out of lane by slamming them to death with the on-hit damage..... this was noticed rather quickly and the W was given the mana cost which finally along with some other adjustments drove Gragas out of the solo lanes.... into being used as a tanky jungler (or occasionally as a tanky support) which we all know nowadays
Olaf used to be a unique champ that had very interesting strengths, players found out that his base damages were good and CDR fit him, but Riot just had to destroy him
BIRUMAN AVG you can still dominate as Olaf.but it feels like you destroy them cause of the raw item power and not because of the champion' s specific strengths.
ntaflos 21 Olaf isn't a bad champion. He used to be way better and was changed for no reason at all.
BIRUMAN AVG when was olaf changed?
olaf'd
To be fair, new champions and champion reworks tend to be relatively heavy and overloaded.
this couldve just been a 3 second video of a text slide that said "bad game design"
Kayle isn’t that bad with the issue, she’s very versatile, she’s a solid top lane pick against most champs, not being super easy to counter. She’s a solid support if she builds and plays right, there are generally better picks than her in each role, but she can still do her job fairly reliably when played right
Cold Fusion the problem isn't just viability. Some of the old champs are point and click and aren't very interactive.
Kayle has been changed SOOOOO many times over the years. Her basics may be mostly the same but the details of how they work have changed a lot
Yeah so back in the day in season one, I had a friend who played Morg, and I would play Kayle on occasion to have the angel bot lane. She's virtually the same as she was back then, she has not been reworked or fixed. She's never been changed that much. The most that's happened is new item builds because they kept changing those... but that's it. Her entire kit is the same as it was on release.
Kaylee has been Meta in every position I the game at one point or another. And currently, she's quite good in all of them. That's a problem
John Moore then maybe it’s just me, I’ve faced her top, mid, and support in the preseason and haven’t personally had an issue with her, but I know I don’t speak for everyone
Before i watch the video my idea: because the new champions have kits that are overloaded with shields, cc and dmg. every new champ has to have some kind of new cool stuff.
new cool stuff isn't the problem. But if the new cool stuff comes 2 more things slapped on it just for because, then it becomes a problem.
Best example: Zoe.
Q: A skillshot that you can redirect once. That alone would be ok, but no.
-> has to have splash. borderline, but ok.
-> has range travel damage-increase that makes Nidalee cry.
(max ap ratio: Zoe 165%, Nidalee 120%)
-> oh and to make sure she doesn't loose much of that for not skilling it: basedamage scales with her level as well.
W: Free summoners/item activations? on practically no CD? Cool and strong in itself. You can flash away from her, since she gets your flash for free etc.
-> dump additional movementspeed on it
-> slap damage as well just for shits and jiggles
E: A skillshot that travels through terrain without that counting to the range. Unique and cool.
-> comes with a zoning-field that gives the full effect to the enemy stepping into it, should she miss.... Ok.. we are aproaching overl...
-> target is slowed for 1.5 sec unaffected by tenacity... yep over
-> foillowed by the longest hard-CC in ingame. at lvl 1. Oo
-> And since we lover overloaded kits, here have additional truedamage on top of it.
*cough* Zoe E *cough*
+TreyjonjiFTW And that's what makes them unique, and not a shitty rip-ff of another champion that already exists in league, Riot has creative mind's so they take it to the fullest on their champions designs.
But Zoe... let's just try to ignore her existence for a bit.
yeah creativity isnt the problem, just playing vs champs that have kind of everything in their kit. outside of that, the actual champions created in the last time are amazing.
@Mythical
Psh, you think Rito is creative? Plenty of other games have more interesting character designs than Rito ever created.
300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Mikasa_Ackerman
300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Fate_Testarossa
300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Mutou_Yuugi
300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Shiro
300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Sora
300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Lelouch
300heroes.wikia.com/wiki/Edogawa_Conan
Each of the above characters has mechanics that make them heads and shoulders above Riot in terms of creativity (though I can't say the actual character models are creative since they're just anime characters).
Ackerman shoots grappling hooks to walls to launch herself forward. Yes, I know Riot launched a champion with that mechanic not too long ago but Ackerman has had that for years already. Fate Testarossa's ult changes based on which non-ult skill she uses. Yugi has 3 freaking forms to switch between. Shiro and Sora have passives and skills that complement each other and thus should be played in a pair. Lelouch can spawn and manipulate units while having a giant robot that he can summon and mount. Conan takes control of an enemy character.
Riot isn't even creative. They may have been creative back in seasons 1-3 but after they decided to cement the meta and force everything into following the meta, they just became boring.
I want my old Urgot back. :(
BansheeNT-D The new Urgod got literally everything from the old, except his armor penetration and a swap that would make more sense know then before. He has still poke as a bruiser, medium auto range, bad mobility but mobility, same damage on medium range but way way more tackiness and usefulness because of an execution and an aoe fear plus he looks much cooler and threatening
Only the Ulimate is cool. But the new Urgot is a bad Midlaner and ADC. :/
BansheeNT-D He never was an adc. More of a range toplaner like he is know.the only thing he can't do know, is beeing played as a niche midlaner.thats right. But I think he looks cooler still got this good mix of clnkiness and the core design of the old
BansheeNT-D I have played him mid and won.
Mohammad Nachawati He was an adc for riot on Paper, but in practice He was an ad attelerie Caster that got a Little Bit tankines and cc and got Range With high consistent damage but Not as Much damage as an normal adc
Two years later... And I'm still coming back to these videos because they are so damn good!
This video barely touches the subject, it's too vaguely and doesn't explain well why or how some champions don't work. You also don't talk on how Riot perfers to nerf aspect of some champions because it's op with some item or rune, making it unplayable without the item/rune and "balanced" with it (and most of the time are better option for that "balanced" position).
Also how they nerf champs unusuable to avoid problems saying that they will "fix them later".
Yo every video of yours turn into a maokai rant you should probs get that checked
Javier Melo really?
nahhh... ryze need more REWORKS!!!!
Old galio. 53-55% winrate at 1.5-2% playrate.
New galio 45% winraye with 3% playrate and he is a stat checker.
Great success..
old galio was best galio
Toy Time King i agree. And they buffed spirit visage and reworks abyssal scepter right after reworking him. Feels so bad.
Like Galio was so good back in the old seasons (season 4 was when i started) sometimes you look back and you're like "were the older seasons better?"
Toy Time King he was always good. He was 'all-star' champ every season since season 1. Riot didnt even do all star this year. Good thing cause he wouldnt even make it anymore. He was just an ardent enhancement damage red tool for pro marksmen and a stat checking top who cant really win or lose top lane. So much fun riot.
Shame that his rework fell flat. (That's what I feel about it.)
Well, Yi was considered a carry because Juggernaut was a carry, that's basically why, and in all honesty i would rather have it go back to that, where not all carries had to be ranged and not all tanks had to be melee and so on
Ashe tank is surprisingly effective.
I loved original Aatrox but I am so hyped for his rework into the World Ender
Poor Amumu missing this bandage toss @2:15 like a.. boss :)
That's Kobe, btw. You know, the caster. xD
Irelia is OK, Maokai needs changes. Never would have guessed.
/s
Duchu26 no
Irelia Is getting a visual update and a champion update so is swain.Aatrox is getting a champion update too but no visual
Maokai needs changes?????? Better rework Irelia
Carlos Bacchin yes, he nezds to get his old ult back
Crap, Why did you put Maokai here... I started playing LOL when Maokai was released and You make me feel old...
It's interesting to watch this video now with the 8.2 changes just out, particularly with minions now responding to targeted spells. Made me think about just how normalized some of these problems are because, wow, minions ignoring enemy damage like that was a huge problem and I was just so used to it I didn't even REALISE it was an issue until they mentioned they were fixing it. And, yeah, it's baffling that Irelia is getting a rework before Mundo does, jesus christ. Great video, definitely subbing!
As someone that played from beta to season 2 (Though I stopped playing, as it was a terrible addiction.):
1. Early on, Riot still thought of League of Legends as DOTA like, so the champion's kits tended to mimic characters from DOTA. (Plus, the early developers did come from working on the original mod.)
1a. DOTA has higher variety with lanes, due to different mechanics that lol doesn't have (trees, teleportation scrolls, strong level one stuns, denying creeps, and objectives, bigger map, ability to kill Roshan level one, more active and stronger items, etc.)
1b. Examples: tri-lanes versus one lanes or dual lanes. Junglers, and mid laners were expected to be able to gank lanes at will.
2. Each one of those irrelevant characters, had been nerfed from an overpowered state. Mordekiser used to be able to kill 1v2 ,consistently, at level 6 with few or no items. In addition, his skills had ridiculous ap ratios, his passive tended to reach the maximum with one spell cast, and spell vamp items were easier to get. Skarner (item proc'ing with a lower cool down ultimate), Mumu (lower ultimate timer with longer stun, with the fun "Holy Hand Grenade" build), Volibear (his old passive used to work like a Doctor Mundo ultimate, so became unkillable. One of his skills used to scale off of his health value.), and others had something that pushed them over the top; they weren't useless till the nerf hammer hit.
3. Riot's marketing philosophy tends to push the newer champions while ignoring the older ones.
I don't understand your complaints about maokai? I get what your saying but doesn't Irelia fit that role perfectly.
Nepthar maokai is currently an incredibly toxic champion to lane against, due to the fact that he has completely free harass on his E Q combo. There is zero way to actually avoid it if you're playing a melee champ and trying to CS due to the cast range of it. And, because Aftershock is so strong, there's no way to win trades with him.
Even here Nocturne is ignored :´( god bless noc-noc players
this video is proof that Spikes can and will ruin any good game over time.
Idk, I don't think they've ruined Magic.
?
Spikes are the people responsible for the power creep in every game
No, the logic of Timmy, Johnny and Spike can be applied to any game - even League.
Timmy example: a guy who loves playing hot girls in League.
Johnny example: person who likes to play off-meta picks with weird builds.
Spike example: player who plays only meta champs with only meta-favored builds.
If you make the game that doesn't entertain the idea of players playing in their best interest and achieving their goals in the optimal ways then you are a moron.
Its 2019 and Riot Remade Mordekaiser, he is so OP thay 2 weeks after the remake we was just on the ground again, people explored it in every lane, except for ADC, (because no range), still mordekaiser since the nerf he is as played as the old one, 1-200 games.
"Riot encourages experimentation" well RIP to that sentiment
You forgot Fiddlesticks.
Is he a jungler? Probably. But you can play him also Midlane and Support. And he is not even good in one of these roles.
Sure, he is fun and you can learn the jungle with him, but Annie is a simple learning tool too and can carry hard!
Please rework this poor lonely Scarecrow...
I play dota i dont even know why am i here lol but this is weird. I mean, is like "nobody plays mage or warlock anymore because they are old meta" wait... what? How can a game not modify its content to still be playable atleast? Is this pokemon TCG that old cards are obsolete and shit? Omegalul
Ok, you're just delusional if you think league is more skill reliant than Dota. As someone who plays both and prefers league, Dota is much harder. It's also no secret that it's much more balanced, shown by how over 90% of the heroes were picked at the most recent International. However, I'll agree with you that a lot of the people that bitch and moan over reworks are butthurt noobs that can't adapt.
@@manhhungtran6541 Super easy to use abilities? Check Invoker he has 10+ abilities and require a lot of skill to combo and remember not mentioning that majority of dota items are also usable, dota 2 is the hardest MOBA if not one of the hardest games to ever exist in terms of strategy skills, league is NOTHING compared to how hard dota is, you need at least 600 hours to not suck. You CLEARLY know NOTHING about dota
Mundo is a weird one... I started playing mundo in my solo queue games and his damage is nuts. Building full tank, Mundo can survive a 1v5 and walkout with a couple kills. His natural damage and scaling with tankiness make him a ridiculous late game god and an early game bully. I might be wrong but I think I've heard you say mundo is literally unplayable but I disagree extremely strongly... He's not an engager though. He's more of an off tank like Darius or Renekton who depend on being focused on and being front line in team fights.
He's what you call a support tank, he's not there to do damage as much as be a target that needs to be avoided. He doesn't zone like Darius or Renekton who are high DPS melee bruiseres, he works more like a Blitz, Thresh, or Braum. A somewhat tanky individual that provides just enough CC and damage to be worth focusing down, but focusing him is a mistake. Like I play in silver games (cause that's where my friends are) but I've demolished diamond top laners, even Teemos, with Mundo, he's probably the best top laner I have in my bag. But I really do prefer to bring him support.
He's got his analysis completely wrong, he assumes that champions that work in multiple positions or builds being a problem, but the common denominator for the champions he listed... and Irelia... are targeted abilities... Something Mundo doesn't have, and thus why Mundo is an old champion that is still very powerful but not in a state of being broken. There's a LOT of Irelia bias here, he's ignoring other problematic heroes like Annie or Janna. Or why Taric and Yorick got reworked already. Targeted abilities are an old broken mechanic, and all the champions that have them, including Irelia, need to be reworked eventually.
I agree. Although I find it strange all the focus that seems go around annihilating targeted abilities. I'm certain irelia's rework is going to keep her Q but make her E have a closer to Darius's cone but smaller. There's a huge dillema around what riot is doing to these dueling champions too. Mundo could be considered a dueler in my opinion- his damage is absurdly naturally high. Personally I'd change that support tank role into more of a Bully role. Different from tanky supports in a sense that Mundo's absurdly powerful late game scaling puts him in a state like old poppy, but better. Even in higher elo games (I'm in gold 1), my mundo stays a problem for the enemy even in 1v3-5 situations.
The problem with targeted abilities is just that the counterplay is unfun. If there's a Nunu there's just a circle around him where to counterplay him you have to stay out of. Yeah, it's not broken, it's no overpowered, yes there's counterplay to it. But going up against a targeted ability is just anti-fun. This is why reworks have been happening, Why did Taric's stun get changed? Because getting punished for getting to close to him was not really fun. Sion's ball of fuck you was changed to a minion kick skillshot... or AOE knockup... To be fair too much really changed to say that it was changed into anything.
Targeted abilities have a place, but not in poke abilities like a Teemo blind or Nunu snowball. It's not ideal for tanks movement abilities like Irelia's dash or Maokai's root. It's better balance for somebody like Katarina (E) where making it a targeted ability makes it less powerful, because jumping in on people in such a way is suicide if you're not careful.
Most of the reworks have done just that, remove targeted abilities, or in the case of Kat's Q making you have to follow up with an extra mechanic to get the full damage. There's other unfun mechanics in the game, but targeted abilities is really just a relic of the early days where champion design and game design was still using minions with different effects to make new abilities and whether or not something was fun to play against was rarely on the minds of the rioters.
Yeah, Soraka just out sustaining your lane isn't fun to deal with either, Irelia getting a stun because you're winning isn't fun, Pantheon getting to block a towershot to dive you early isn't fun, getting blinded isn't fun. There's other issues with these champions, but targeted abilities has been historically a prime target to get rid of because from a dueling perspective they feel unfair because there's no (fun) counterplay to them. When the counterplay to something is "don't play" you've got a problem.
1:55 - *NA meta.
3:05 - Winter map...missed it so much
11:55 - EMPIREEEEEEE OoooooooOOOOOh!!!
I'm not sure I agree, I think I would prefer if they left the older (not quite up to speed) champs untouched, except sometimes adjusting their numbers, when they get broken with item reworks. I can understand, that Riot from a business perspective has to release new champs a lot, and I think its fair, that they are sligthly stronger than older ones (again: business perspective, similar to mtg cards).
The perfect place for old champions would be - in my opinion - to be pocket picks, that nostalgics like myself can take and do alright with, without them being broken. I dont like many of the reworks of old favorite champs (morde, shen).
I agree with your point on uninteractive champs though, luckily, teemo received a rework, so lets see, how that will turn out.
Sounds like Galio AFTER his rework
I would play league again if og AP shaco came back. RIP
Don't do the old Sion like that. He was the greatest champ even if he wasn't looking particularly nice 🤣
Problem with league of legends hero design is simply put, a forced meta, no other MOBA forces top, mid, 2, jungle like league does.
Not sure I agree - the idea that a champion isn't specialised towards a certain role, in my opinion, isn't the limiting factor. I have a lot of experience with Dota 2 and there are hardly any characters who can only be played in one place, and that game has a much more inclusive pick rate of all heroes, even up to competitive level. The meta that evolved, (i.e. who goes where, which roles are viable etc...) is the problem - Riot made the design decision that they would design the game and champions towards this meta, rather than balancing it in whatever way they wanted and having the meta change and adapt around it
idk why i found this video since i've quit lol since 2014. but i agree with you. in dota we have kunkka and mirana who can fit every single role in the game depending on the drafts. i played lol around season 2 and 3. back in the days when i still played lol every ADC no matter what champion it was would just build bloodthirster -> phantom dancer -> infinity edge without thinking about other possibilities because there were none. idk whether that is still the case today but in dota even item build for a certain hero can be different depending on your opponents (mostly) and your teammates (to some extent). item choices were already more boring in lol but then riot decided to make it even more boring for me. master yi back in my days could be played as AD or AP but riot reworked him to remove the viability of AP master yi. lulu top was viable but then riot nerfed her to the point she couldn't even be played as a supp anymore. there were other examples about champions who if being picked, made you wonder whether they would be played as AD or AP but then riot just removed one possibility they didn't like. i played both dota and lol during 2012-2014 depending on which friends asked me to play first but i quit lol ever since and stick with dota because i like more flexibility and more unpredictability.
I don't know about Dota 2, but in Lol there aren't champions who can only be played a one role, not even Fiddlesticks if you ask me, maybe some picks aren't competitive but that doesn't mean they can't work (Ahem MF support) and don't forget we have the so called "specialists" who can go any role, Teemo, Kennen, Quinn or Kayle.
In my humble opinion, people flaming for your Garen jg or Veigar adc only makes the game more frustrating and toxic.
Who wants to play a game like that?
I actually hated most of Riots reworks and I couldn't disagree more with you in this video. I've been playing the game since 2010 and most of the champs they "reworked" felt extremly nostalgic to me previous to the rework. Yes, champion kits like old sion's or old poppy's were old and janky, but not unsalvagable. With Sion or Galio in specific it felt like Riot just deleted the champion and created a new one. It doesn't feel like a rework, it feels like a replacement, which is sad to me in particular since I mained him and played him almost every game with a jungle or top lane AD build.
So when Sion got reworked I began playing old Poppy more and more until she became my main. Then they "reworked" her and almost her entire kit changed including her really unique ult.
Then, no joke, I went ahead and mained another under rated champion at the time, Galio, and used him as a mid and support. I always knew he would be one of the next ones on the chopping block, but secretly I hoped they wouldn't change too much of his kit. Maybe make his windblast a dash instead so he has a better engage for his ult? I dunno. But then instead they again deleted the old one and made a new one with a completly different build.
I don't think Riot should delete champions and replace them with slicker, newer versions with an entirely different kit just because they are underplayed or don't have a "modern" kit. That's why I pray they won't give this treatment to champs like Mundo or Volibear.
Youre probably one of the few here who thinks like that. Only one rework which is complete garbage is ryze's. Maaaaybe LB too, and thats why they reverted it back completelly. All other is fine. I myself dont like katarinas second rework or irelia, because i was actually playing those champs before rework, but fact is they actuallyl needed it. Atleast katarina for sure, it was just too retarded, you press E then W + R. E+W already takes half of your hp, without any posibility to counterplay it. Then R finishes you if youre not fast enought to flash away/cc. If you are fast enought then you just run away and 30 seconds later katarina again has ult for the same engage without any counterplay.
@@pauliussipavicius4658 I agree with you, those champs needed a rework (besides Irelia imo, I thought her kit was fine). But champs like Katarina didn't get outright deleted, just her kit revamped. She still feels mostly the same as before which can't be said for champs like Galio or Urgot.
@@WhitemageJones Thats because they had different problems. Katarina was totally playable and fine, problem was that she had no counterplay. E+W and half ur hp gone instantly. Not a skillshots, no cast time, nothing. Meanwhile galio or urgot was unplayable champions, who had no place in teamfights, and barelly had any place in laning aswell, thats why they had to change them completelly.
You literally just said that Riot should pay attention to playable, but troubled champions. What do you think Irelia is?
She's his bae. It seems to me that his gripes are against old champs that he has trouble laning against: Teemo, Pantheon MAOKAI. Who's kits, in my opinion, dont seem nearly as bad as Irelia's. She gets stomped, but can come back because she can literally build full tank and kick out true damage with a free stun if she's losing the fight.
Irelia has always been a good champion. Why do you think better nerf irelia was ever a meme? His point is there are 20 champions that are worst off.
'X' Champion just doesn't work and doesn't fit in the current meta... (Shows clips of them kicking ass..)
Mordikai is all about his match ups. He not going to beat all top lane champs but built good he can stomp nasus, tryna, renkten top just to name a few.
This is some excellent commentary that really highlights some glaring issues with the game. I love it.
The old champions are failing? Dude the entire game is a unbalanced mess. Instead of rewarding skill it's not about picking champions who can delete people instantly or just have completely broken kits.
I miss the old days of League where everything didn't have a flash or a dash and you actually had to think about how to beat your opponents instead of face rolling the keyboard.
Also nerfing the ability to snowball was [edited]
in dota snowballing is balanced by death timers and gold loss on death which is the right way to do it
in league there is no draw back other than the death timer and they made it shorter and unlike in dota where its based off level its based of time in league
A level 18 hero should not have the same DT as a level 5 one
And the mana costs in this game are broken, ww's q that did nothing cost a third of his mana at level 1, yet, something that's far more useful like ez's q costs nothing
dont forget how hp/mp regens much more faster here than dota.
i played both for a significant amount of time and something that i cant miss is how ppl would scould me for not spamming hook/graps as a supp, yet that is not something to be seen at dota since you have less than 1,0 mana reg/s for most heroes.
im talking about this because with low mana regen the game kinda forces you to not spam skills, instead to look for the best opportunities or at least to stack on some consumables (wich btw worns off when hitted by champions so you cant spam potions in mid battle).
another thing that i hatted so much about league was when they forced a change for support role - back in my days (S2, S3) you would pick a support for its utility package, be it something like lulu, sona, soraka or something more tanky like the mentioned volibear, thresh leona and blitz. also even mage or skill spammers characters wouldnt be able to burst anyone (they would deal some intial good damage but because their gold networth wasnt as good as other roles their powerspike would fall, yet they would still be amazing buffing, debuffing, healing or even hooking/grabbing). then for some stupid reason (being that ppl was upset for not being able to kill as supp or to not have itens other than wards or +gold per time stuff) they decided that having a secondary mage/tank for the team was way better than having supps being supps.....
i would disagree with you. riot has been pushing the "meta". you have been able to report people for not going with the meta for a long time. i stopped playing because of the "meta" the game is about strategy and tactics; riot games took the strategy and through it out the door for sells!!!
*cough* malphite *cough*
Joking aside, he's just as old some of the champions that he mentioned and has little to no place in League of legends for the time being because his kit suffers from being old as hell.
And his lore is old lore, like Old pre retcon Summoners still exist lore deal
Even Necrit mentioned it and he makes a good point.
I hope they push his rework soon as possible because the new runes and his kit is just as unhealthy in the long term right now.
Ian Wiatric thats literaly all hes really known for.
I wouldn't be surprised if they keep that part in his kit.
Malphite is actually really strong right now so I think riot may hold off the rework a bit and see where he goes
He is a fun champ and with new runes specificly ultimate hat and others he is beginning to make a comeback and i think if they buffed him they would make him insanely op he is already tanky as heck
i swear to god bring malphite and ornn bot and they one shot both adc and support after level 6
Idk what you're talking about, malphite is good right now and does see play.
I never knew that people didn't knew where to play Maokai when he first got released. I pretty much only saw and played him jungle back then (I bought him immediately when he got released). Also you make it sound as if Teemo is so strong....I mean....he either is or he isn't. Just depending on who he faces. A good Darius for example can grab him since Teemos basic attack range is within Darius his grab range
Dude, your videos are amazing!
I am not an old League of Legends Summoner, but I'm trying to learn more about the game, and your videos are pure information! Thank you for sharing. It makes the hole thing much more connected and interesting! \o/
#Joe
I am dreading the eventual Kayle rework. I love her as is. :(
Morgana needs a lighter touch than Kayle, Beyond Kayle's ult all of her abilities need to be rebuilt from the ground up, with maybe the on hit buff being the least touched (instantaneous hits needs to go though)
no wtf i always get her in aram when i hear her fucking say into the fray i wanna throw my laptop into the bin
What is the problem with morgana? she is fun just as she is
I loved her when she countered mid assasins, but then riot decided that zed needs to oneshot ppl he ults on so lets nerf her ult, then decided she also did too much dmg(less than zed) with her q + lichbane so nerf ratio from 100 to 60, then lets nerf lichbane and buff everyone who used it except kayle and finally lets nerf her e from 40 to 20 which they later luckily given back.
i dont think teemo is that unhealthy for the game... he might be hard to deal with in lane but if you play it right you wont die and even with the cs disadvantage you can still be more useful in teamfights than teemo is.
also you can easily shut him down with the help of your jungler since he doesnt really have a good escape, making him an enemy where you need teamwork (which isnt that bad i think).
also, most junglers would like to gank teemo because they hate him just as much as you do :) you just have to communicate a bit
Peter Mueck have you ever heard of tank teemo
The problem with teemo is that you can either easy win lane (if you pick the right champion) or there is nothing on this earth you can do to even survive lane, not even think of winning it (if you pick the wrong champ), counters should exist in game but entering the game knowing you 100% lost lane in champ select is really toxic for the game.
Teemo isn't op _overall_ , but there's no denying he's extremely frustrating and unfun to play against in lane, thus _unhealthy_ for the game.
Being able to still win the game despite having _at least_ one third of your cs denied in lane (often much more), doesn't mean that half of the game wasn't the worst torture league has to offer.
Also with the introduction of tank Teemo he's actually pretty decent in team fights and skirmishes now, as well as being able to split effectively since he still wins many 1v1 and doesn't die fast if collapsed upon.
I mean, all the complaints I hear about Teemo can be adressed towards Quinn and Kennen as well. Except both of these champs have imo much stronger kits.
DantedMaritu Neither Quinn nor Kennen do remotely as much damage as Teemo with on-target auto attacks in the laning phase (3 autos are half health in the early to mid laning phase against almost every champion) and neither do they have a 2 second hard counter blind against melee champions in order to completely close out every potential for a winnable trade. Plus he can kite most of them with his W. There's actually no other champion in the game other than Teemo that can do all this *and* has free wards that do damage.
The introduction of the new Runes made Teemo do so much damage that he can now build full tank (become unkillable 1v1) without losing much of that potential.
Everything about his kit is to just be as annoying as humanly possible and with the new Runes he's actually viable post laning.
Now you'll get banned playing roaming support teemo.
Cloud so true
i'm really glad this popped up in my reccomended, because i'd never actually thought of this before. this video's actually super well made. good job, dude.
Back then a carry was defined by having an attack steroid like an attack speed buff or a critical strike chance, something inherent to that champions that multiply your attack over attacks from abilities that do other things other than enhance your auto-attacks.
The reason being they were the most efficient champions to stack all that gold onto.
It was caried over from earlier Mobas where there was no Ability Power.
Eventually Rito started making better expensive items for AP champions to do actual damage and scale with a percentage AP multiplier to kind of cement the AP champions that had taken over them mid lane for a few months by that point.