I think that Aptera's alliance with LG was a smart move. Most likely facilitated by CTNS (who will initially manufacture the Aptera battery packs). LFP batteries are used in the majority of Chinese EVs. They are cheaper than NCM, longer lasting, and less likely to catch fire. Plus they use inexpensive iron instead of nickel, and don't use cobalt at all. Plus LFP batteries can be regularly discharged to 0% and charged to 100% with minimal battery degradation. LFMP batteries add manganese which improves their energy density and performance. And LG has experience building batteries using these other chemistries, but usually in pouch, rather than cylindrical form. One advantage of the Aptera is that because the vehicle is so efficient, it can provide decent range even from lower energy dense batteries, like sodium ion or aqueous zinc-ion batteries, which have still lower cost, super longer life, and very low volatility. Plus there is the possibility of the Aptera eventually getting solid state batteries, which can be even more energy dense than NCM batteries, provide quicker charging. Solid state batteries could potentially provide enough energy to go 600, 1,000 miles with a pack size like the current 45kWh one used in the Aptera. But for now, NMCA and LG is a great start. Especially with the steady drop in lithium ion battery prices over the last 2 years.
LG Chem manufactured the battery for the Chevy Bolt and the batteries that burned at Moss Landing recently. They also manufactured the batteries that went into the Hyundai Kona that were recalled because of fire. Hopefully, they have learned how to manufacture batteries that don't burn but their track record hasn't been good.
That was a very different prismatic cell for the Bolt. LG safety incidents are wildly overblown in terms of statistics and they have invested substancially since. This is similar to samsung with their exploding note 7 phones. Basically the fact they stayed in business means they probably have a higher standard than the competition now since they absolutely do not want any more repeats of their past costly mistakes.
The battery management system needs to effectively monitor the cells at all times for safety. The vehicle manufacturer is responsible for battery pack reliability, testing, and safety. In my opinion.
@ So what your saying is that GM, Hyundai, and the grid battery manufacturer are to blame for these fires and not the common manufacturer of the cells, oooooooook.
Since at CES Aptera, CTNS and LG signed a MoU, does anyone know when they will sign an actual contract that LG will supply batteries for Aptera? It's great that they did this MoU but that's not the same as an actual contract.
I am more interested in finding out the funding status of the convertible note than signing purchase orders which can be deferred if not cancelled at a later date. I would be interested to know if Aptera had to put up any money towards this agreement.
Financial arrangement would be interesting to hear (in addition to technical pros/cons). Guessing those details may not be fully locked-down, perhaps dependent on Aptera’s balance sheet. Also LG may wish to keep generous terms (if any) confidential… lest others come with similar expectations.
Doubt it. Aptera cannot put up enough cash to budge LG’s meter. So then why would LG give up leverage elsewhere for a little bit of cash? I would think it would be more favorable for LG to lock them into some sort of commitment where LG gets to continue producing cells “x” amount of months after Aptera gives the notice of intent to cancel the agreement. Basically something that makes it more difficult to separate. That’s likely more meaningful to LG than whatever cash Aptera can muster and Aptera doesn’t want to spend cash so they will likely acquiesce to terms like that.
Good to know the subtle differences in these chemistries for the owners to understand charging and discharging parameters to maximize longevity. Jeff Dahn explores this in his videos.
Good rundown. I think it was a great move for Aptera.being able to have a partner that is going to be here to supply batteries and scale easily with the company is good.
Would really love to see an investment initiative from LG. Maybe a partnership of LG with other companies with LG giving 5-10Million as a sign of good will and other investors financing the rest? 🤔
It's too bad there is no information about the production of 21140 batteries. (forgive me for getting the designation wrong, I know the length is not double but I forget if it's 120) I'd very much like to know if LG is already producing these batteries for other manufacturers or if not what their status is on tooling. But I'm quite sure that's not public knowledge they are advertising, at least not until Aptera announces they will be producing their 1000 mile option. Anyway, great video. Hopefully it will be reassuring that Aptera is working with South Korea rather than China. And the more production that takes place over here the better.
While Aptera is likely to use NCMA chemistry in the future, Launch Edition is still announced to use NMC 811. That was confirmed by Aptera marketing. Indeed that could change if Aptera deliveries are further delayed.
They changed the entire design of where the motors were in the car. So lets not pretend they cant change something as trivial as battey supplier or chemistry.
Tesla also makes their own batteries, as well as sourcing them. They have LFP chemistry as well. Ncm is less popular in recent years due to controversy surrounding cobalt and the mining of it.
The LG video made me hungry. It is a little dated as LFMO and NCMA are missing variants and are the most promising. Even sodium can make an effective low cost EV battery.
No. Aptera is planning to use 2190 and 21120 for the 600 and 1000 mile verisons in the future. LFMP or sodium for the low - mid range apteras has potential for the future.
First thing is this, it's an MoU not a contract. That's really important and it seems that people are ignoring that major piece of information. It's right in the press release.
@@harriettanthony7352 I really hope there's a jack point on the rear suspension as well so an owner can replace a tire when out of cellphone range, without needing to carry two jacks, one for each rear jack point.
There is nothing non green about using cobalt. As far as ethical concerns go there are non cobalt tracking technologies in place to ensure ethical sources are used.
Of note, the NMCA battery chemistry uses less cobolt that NMC. Where LG sources it's cobolt might be of interest. Even Tesla use NMC or NMCA batteries for all of it long range and performance models. Due to better energy density. NMCA batteries also have better thermal stability and cold temperature performance than LFP. Tesla was the first customer LG had for their NMCA batteries.
What kind of nonsense is this food imagery from LG? Just use completely random vegetables to represent battery composition materials?? Who comes up with this crap??
@@garywozniak7742 Thanks for your reply. I love the whole Aptera experience, but I just have a huge problem with LG. Just google "LG Chem ev battery failures" to see what I mean. Chevy's recall of 141,000 Bolt EV's can't really be ignored.
I think that Aptera's alliance with LG was a smart move. Most likely facilitated by CTNS (who will initially manufacture the Aptera battery packs). LFP batteries are used in the majority of Chinese EVs. They are cheaper than NCM, longer lasting, and less likely to catch fire. Plus they use inexpensive iron instead of nickel, and don't use cobalt at all. Plus LFP batteries can be regularly discharged to 0% and charged to 100% with minimal battery degradation. LFMP batteries add manganese which improves their energy density and performance. And LG has experience building batteries using these other chemistries, but usually in pouch, rather than cylindrical form. One advantage of the Aptera is that because the vehicle is so efficient, it can provide decent range even from lower energy dense batteries, like sodium ion or aqueous zinc-ion batteries, which have still lower cost, super longer life, and very low volatility. Plus there is the possibility of the Aptera eventually getting solid state batteries, which can be even more energy dense than NCM batteries, provide quicker charging. Solid state batteries could potentially provide enough energy to go 600, 1,000 miles with a pack size like the current 45kWh one used in the Aptera. But for now, NMCA and LG is a great start. Especially with the steady drop in lithium ion battery prices over the last 2 years.
The thumbnail was not a mistake.
I love it. They used beans to represent molecules. Feels really reminiscent to grade school in the best way.
Same 👍👍 …tho more of a meat & potatoes guy (in my formative years) 😂
The visuals and narration combined made me hungry for marginally toxic metals.
LG Chem manufactured the battery for the Chevy Bolt and the batteries that burned at Moss Landing recently. They also manufactured the batteries that went into the Hyundai Kona that were recalled because of fire. Hopefully, they have learned how to manufacture batteries that don't burn but their track record hasn't been good.
I just commented on the same thing. What is Aptera thinking!?
That was a very different prismatic cell for the Bolt. LG safety incidents are wildly overblown in terms of statistics and they have invested substancially since. This is similar to samsung with their exploding note 7 phones. Basically the fact they stayed in business means they probably have a higher standard than the competition now since they absolutely do not want any more repeats of their past costly mistakes.
Tesla uses LG's NCMA batteries in its Model Yand were LG's first EV customer to use them when the came out with them.
The battery management system needs to effectively monitor the cells at all times for safety. The vehicle manufacturer is responsible for battery pack reliability, testing, and safety. In my opinion.
@ So what your saying is that GM, Hyundai, and the grid battery manufacturer are to blame for these fires and not the common manufacturer of the cells, oooooooook.
Thanks for breaking this down. The LG's video was very helpful.
Since at CES Aptera, CTNS and LG signed a MoU, does anyone know when they will sign an actual contract that LG will supply batteries for Aptera? It's great that they did this MoU but that's not the same as an actual contract.
I am more interested in finding out the funding status of the convertible note than signing purchase orders which can be deferred if not cancelled at a later date. I would be interested to know if Aptera had to put up any money towards this agreement.
Financial arrangement would be interesting to hear (in addition to technical pros/cons). Guessing those details may not be fully locked-down, perhaps dependent on Aptera’s balance sheet. Also LG may wish to keep generous terms (if any) confidential… lest others come with similar expectations.
I suspect the US Capital note is ended -- I got a message from Blake Ryan last December informing me that my note had been converted to Aptera stock
Doubt it. Aptera cannot put up enough cash to budge LG’s meter. So then why would LG give up leverage elsewhere for a little bit of cash? I would think it would be more favorable for LG to lock them into some sort of commitment where LG gets to continue producing cells “x” amount of months after Aptera gives the notice of intent to cancel the agreement. Basically something that makes it more difficult to separate. That’s likely more meaningful to LG than whatever cash Aptera can muster and Aptera doesn’t want to spend cash so they will likely acquiesce to terms like that.
@@thomasbragg9378 you requested that conversion, correct?
Good to know the subtle differences in these chemistries for the owners to understand charging and discharging parameters to maximize longevity. Jeff Dahn explores this in his videos.
oof, gotta work on that volume balance across the video. the inserted video was much louder.
also the ai pronunciation of Nichole
Great additional information and detail, Steve.... thank you!
This is great news! This is what I was looking for! Thank you, Steve!
Good rundown. I think it was a great move for Aptera.being able to have a partner that is going to be here to supply batteries and scale easily with the company is good.
Would really love to see an investment initiative from LG. Maybe a partnership of LG with other companies with LG giving 5-10Million as a sign of good will and other investors financing the rest? 🤔
At a minimum, supply now but pay later after Aptera can ramp-up production year 2 or 3.
Thanks
Prefer LiFePO4 because of fire risk.
Interesting, although not unexpected. I hope that Aptera makes it!!!
Thanks for covering and sharing!
It's too bad there is no information about the production of 21140 batteries. (forgive me for getting the designation wrong, I know the length is not double but I forget if it's 120) I'd very much like to know if LG is already producing these batteries for other manufacturers or if not what their status is on tooling. But I'm quite sure that's not public knowledge they are advertising, at least not until Aptera announces they will be producing their 1000 mile option.
Anyway, great video. Hopefully it will be reassuring that Aptera is working with South Korea rather than China. And the more production that takes place over here the better.
I watched the video, now I'm hungry.
Thanks Steve. I learned something, as always with your videos.
I hope all the fire issues are completely behind. LG
Good research and information. NOW Aptera has to find the $ and build the SEV or this and all else, is in vain.
eve energy was going to use longer cells for the longer range aptera the 600 mile and thousand mile range🤔🤔
While Aptera is likely to use NCMA chemistry in the future, Launch Edition is still announced to use NMC 811. That was confirmed by Aptera marketing. Indeed that could change if Aptera deliveries are further delayed.
They changed the entire design of where the motors were in the car. So lets not pretend they cant change something as trivial as battey supplier or chemistry.
On the Discord channel Chris McCammon said the LG will be supplying the NMCA battery to Aptera.
No word on previous ideas of 21150 cells for 100kWh battery pack? Is that still on the table?
Looking forward to my Aptera.
But how much will this design change delay delivers?
This isn't a design change this is securing battery supply chain.
@@PandaKnight52
Great good to know these are drop in replacements, with no hardware redesign or software that has to be recertifyed.
Are these latest model Bolts using LG?
Tesla also makes their own batteries, as well as sourcing them. They have LFP chemistry as well. Ncm is less popular in recent years due to controversy surrounding cobalt and the mining of it.
Tesla was LG's first customer fir theur NMCA battery. Tesla still uses NMC or NMCA batteries in all of it long range and performance vehicles.
@@garywozniak7742 yeah hard to beat the performance cobalt offers currently but they sell way more of their non premium models and many are LFP.
The LG video made me hungry. It is a little dated as LFMO and NCMA are missing variants and are the most promising. Even sodium can make an effective low cost EV battery.
Will they use the new 4695 cells?
No. Aptera is planning to use 2190 and 21120 for the 600 and 1000 mile verisons in the future. LFMP or sodium for the low - mid range apteras has potential for the future.
What's their record on combustion? LG doesn't have a great reputation with appliances
13:05 Unfortunately, say goodbye to all federal EV tax credits starting this year. Hopefully, Aptera can get California to offer a state tax credit.
did they have to offer CTNS ownership? what are the business details? ....I suppose we have to wait another year for any financial filings?
First thing is this, it's an MoU not a contract. That's really important and it seems that people are ignoring that major piece of information. It's right in the press release.
I hope they're not the same batteries that went into the "Burning Bolts", which all had to be recalled because of battery fires...
They’re not. This is a different generation of cylindrical battery cell from LG.
lg do not charge as good as Samsung and the energy density was not high so hopefully they address this
Let's not forget about LG's fire risk track record too. I think Samsung fixed theirs, but not positive.
@@stewartomarah All of LG's fire were with prismatic cells. Aptera uses cylindrical cells.
Not relevant to this video, but does anyone know where jack points are on an Aptera?
The jack points are clearly shown in one of the CES videos --- four total, two on each side.
YES, there are Aptera videos on this, BUT as I recall, the points are at the front suspension and 'somewhere' under the rear fin
@@harriettanthony7352 I really hope there's a jack point on the rear suspension as well so an owner can replace a tire when out of cellphone range, without needing to carry two jacks, one for each rear jack point.
@@netscrooge thx!
@@harriettanthony7352 I'm assuming the CES stuff is more current. The video clearly showed jack points on the body, not the suspension.
LG Battery Technology; I don’t know… (LGBT)
Those batteries identify as non-flaming. So I'm sure they'll be okay.
Nickel, Cobalt... I thought Aptera was going to be a "Green" vehicle.
There is nothing non green about using cobalt. As far as ethical concerns go there are non cobalt tracking technologies in place to ensure ethical sources are used.
Of note, the NMCA battery chemistry uses less cobolt that NMC. Where LG sources it's cobolt might be of interest.
Even Tesla use NMC or NMCA batteries for all of it long range and performance models. Due to better energy density. NMCA batteries also have better thermal stability and cold temperature performance than LFP. Tesla was the first customer LG had for their NMCA batteries.
Lg is infamous for battery fires.
But not battery fires with cylindrical cells.
What kind of nonsense is this food imagery from LG? Just use completely random vegetables to represent battery composition materials?? Who comes up with this crap??
But that represents exactly what they are doing in their labs - cooking! They are trying to find out what tastes better or what works out best.
and I hate pasta......
Boy aptera couldn't have made a bigger mistake.
Everyone has an opinion. LG has and excellent NMCA battery chemistry with a lot of advantages. I think it was a great decision.
@@garywozniak7742 Thanks for your reply. I love the whole Aptera experience, but I just have a huge problem with LG. Just google "LG Chem ev battery failures" to see what I mean. Chevy's recall of 141,000 Bolt EV's can't really be ignored.
@calarndt Tesla uses, and in fact was the first EV manufacture to use LG'S NMCA in the cells on their Model Y.
By "ally", I think you mean "client state". ;)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_state