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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Embedded legend Jack Ganssle and Dave have an impromptu chat on embedded electronics. Everything from EE learning and education, 8008 processors to quantum computing, and from VW Combi vans to the recent Toyota and Volkswagon scandals
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As a EE student, I have to say this is some pretty great stuff. At my school they put a decent amount of emphasis on ensuring students can handle coding. One class is dedicated to C programming basics, one class is dedicated to learning digital logic through FPGAs using verilog, one class is dedicated to programming microcontrollers using assembly and C, and a lot of the classes in between use MATLAB or some other language as is convenient. Even after all of that, it's nothing like what a dedicated computer science guy can do.
A lot of schools nowadays have computer engineering degrees that really focus in on the embedded design aspect of EE and a lot more coding than EEs, so a bunch of schools are stepping up to the challenge.
As a retired EE enjoyed your video very much. Identified with much of your conversation. I was a "Vital Systems Engineer" (Application Engineer) with a Railroad. I started out using safety relays with 3KV isolation between contacts and when I retired we were using vital processors for the same function.
Thanks Dave, I really enjoyed listening to Jack and you - everything was there - electronics, nostalgia, common sense and real gold nuggets of information and experience.
Really great vid! QA starts at the design phase, is inherent through peer design review, peer code review (which should enforce coding standards), and testing (which should be performed both by the design engineer and a separate QA entity) is your final insurance policy. (BTW: criticism in review should always be viewed as a learning opportunity and not a personal attack). For low level code (whether developing drivers for a large operating system or a small embedded project), where often part of the goal is that the user has an expectation of proper function and isn't necessarily going to notice that proper behavior has been achieved, the lack of complaints of improper behavior (and your own knowledge of the inherent beauty of the implementation that few others may be aware of) may be your only source of gratification.
I used to work on a 2900-series bit slice processor, IIRC it had a 5-deep hardware stack. It was forbidden to EVER add code with a call because it was almost impossible to diagnose how deep that stack was at any point, so any patches or new code had to jump and then jump back.
A ham radio? LOL That is nonsense. One might be able to make a lemon battery, but a radio made from ham? Seriously...
And they expect us to find this mythical crystal pig .... where?
I must say. I have been really digging back into your stuff. Loving it as a layman who wants to learn some fundamentals as you go through all types of stuff.
With that said, this interview. BEAUTY!
Awesome conversation and so much truth to what was said. I grew up learning 1802/8080/z80 assembler and doing hands on electronics which I'm positive has given me a huge edge over the sort of graduate electronics engineers I work with and see these days. When I write a piece of embedded code I'm "aware" of what is happening at the hardware level and not just a library monkey. Hell they can't even solder when they graduate and score jobs designing and building embedded systems. Scary...
Wow! That was fun to watch. I love that Jack mentions that the best EEs he's worked with came from a technician or hobbyist background. And to top it off, he says he's had a tremendous amount of success hiring English majors to write code. Perhaps there's hope for me yet ;)
Started watching this on the computer, it was interesting but at 1hr long I made a cup of tea and decided to watch it on the TV, ouch! the audio dosent work on big speakers, I found I had to keep adjusting the volume, either too low or else lifting me out of my seat, the dymanic range seems ok on the computer size speakers but on the hifi system its not easy listing.
I think it needs some compression... I turned off the TV and ended up fast scanning through iton the PC, I'd have prefered to watch it all on the TV.
Yes Yes! I consider myself exactly on this edge between hardware and software. Thank you Jack.
I wish Jack would right some new books- especially, in a e-reader format; all of Jack's books on Amazon are really expensive, by my standards - even when used, and none seem to be in an e-reader format
This was just fantastic ! Best one.
Good talk, nice fella!
Being a EE is not a job it's a life style! Period. 99% of EE's don't even get this. It took me years to recognize this.
He’s so right at 24min. I went straight software and bored to tears. Led to a lot of prank hacks lol. Now learning the hardware. Dollar short, day late.
For interest based things, there are things in which the interest of them is universally shared. For example, it is possibly to not like watching anime? (probably not)
While I do not feel that it should be a requirement for everyone to delve deep into electronic engineering, everyone should learn the basics, e.g., at least enough to troubleshoot basic electronic devices, and perform repairs such as replacing passives.
Dave looks like Paxton field sales team member Rob Schorr
Jack in 2015: "The FDA is SO. CLUELESS."
Me, a guy in the medical devices industry, in 2020: "Yup. Still clueless."
I wonder how they have AI in fallout 4 but never discovered the transistor. Great video!
+Stewart Fisher The world was focused on finding oil and didn't invent the Transistor until about a decade before the great war.
Reliability and you use Android devices? You have to buy new hardware because the OS doesn't work?
Googling 'hard cores' brought me here
I agree totally with what has been discussed here. Being new to electronics, there is so much abstracted from the elegant design approach once used. Instead of using fundamental components together in some genius array/configuration to perform a particular circuit function, a 99c IC can be purchased and whacked in. I have a lot of respect for the older gen EE's. Kudos! Even if you do struggle to unlock your smart phones...
You both are so humble. You say you just "bum around" when in fact, you are inspiring teachers and communicators that are giving back so much of your high quality, high signal to noise knowledge to the community Thank you.
One of your best blogs, I really enjoyed that one
Very interesting .... ....I've noticed in rf DSP that companies have resorted to using old analog crystal lattice filters in front of the DSP section to relieve pressure on the analog to digital processor .... on very dirty signals....so the beauty of hybridization ....beware of the analog domain ! hahaha
The next big wave.......human imbedded computing !!! Just watch !
Absolutely the most enjoyable vid I've seen in AGES - thanks Dave. Great hosting, great great great guest, great topics. :-)
+TrollingAround Glad to hear, thanks.
@@EEVblog I', Jack's age; so I can relate to almost everything he says!! Most enjoyable!
Now a retired EE; I went into optical transmission and networking in the late 70s. Good work for 20+ years.
But, some observations:
like the declining cost of silicon, transmission costs are 8 - 9 orders of magnitude lower, but the result has not been an improvement in the quality of human interaction.
Being honest, ethical, and a hard worker still gives almost no control of how your work will be used. Management usually demanded engineers have no social conscience.
Really got a laugh out of Jack's comments, especially about our kids!
jack looks like the older version of engineering explained!!!!!
+Anas Malas Thanks for mentioning that channel, added to my watchlist! :)
Jack Johnsen hes really good isnt he?
+Jack Johnsen & Anas Malas I read these comments, went and subscribed. Came back today to thank both of you!
"I was afraid of quantum computing, I mean I knew nothing about quantum physics! But then I realized: There's gonna be an API!"
Jack is a god :D
Fantastic Interview Dave. Really enjoyed it, felt like an AmpHour Show with faces associated with it
it's funny to see a talk with a guy super electric as Dave and another super calm as Jack. after some time they start to sync. hahaha
Subbed to Jack's channel. Great interview and interesting perspective
Jack Ganssle is the most persuasive and hieratic guy in the electronic world, he's a legend, a sacred institution. And a bit less garrulous than Dave Jones. (Yeah, just joking, I love both these badass guys)
As a young engineer (Mechanical) I think the biggest problem with how engineers are educated this days are we are not thought the "Keep it simple"-rule.
Could not agree more. The prime example are German over engineering of cars like BMW, Porsche, the downfall of German Engineering
Keeping it simple is also the key to reliability, future proofing and Maintainability
.
I prefer to call it the "Internet of Shit"
"Software folks are resistant of typing..." Best comment of the video.. True but still lolzzz
the video was a pile of golden knowledge for me as a "young player" as DAVE calls us new to the game.
Agreed.
collaborative effort needed from the imaginary skills of the Artist too the Practical Engineers of both hard & soft logic. this is the Trinity of success. that's why video game development process is so hard for a single developer to master. as most Art Work / creative ideas & hard core Logic of Problem Solving needed in programming do not mix
I was a bit worried you might start disassembling Mr. Ganssle.
I love this video, hooked on Jack's words.
Thanks Dave!
Amazing content, I wish there's more. Some of the discussions:
6:58 What are the major advances in embedded over the years?
14:10 What are the fundamental differences between sequential embedded programming and HDL?
16:44 Did the FPGA concept fail?
23:27 Is there a niche out there for a talented embedded programmer?
24:45 Can one be the world's best embedded programmer without knowing the hardware.
26:39 Should beginners be relying on using libraries?
36:55 Is 8-bits dead?
48:15 Quantum computing mainstream in the future?
54:35 Hardcore designing experience.
As a firmware/software guy of some 35 years, I have a slightly different take on the divide between hardware and software. In my experience, hardware guys are not very good at software (although they often think they are) and vice versa. Often, hardware guys end up writing the firmware and software because there was no-one else to do it, and all credit to them for knuckling down and getting on with it! But writing good quality software is a craft that takes a lifetime to hone if you do it full time. For embedded designs, what works best in my experience is when a hardware and software guy work in close partnership, where each understands something about the other's field but it isn't their job to do it. There was also a comment in the discussion along the lines of "software isn't something that just gets thrown in, it is something we have to really get on top of" and I completely agree with that. If the electronics is the engine of a system, the software is the fit and finish and too many systems are let down badly by poor software. It is something that companies should value much more as an asset, rather than just treating it as a cost centre!
I feel inspired to write a book, 101 things that are wrong with most TV remote controls.
I'm so motivated by these guys. I just hope I get accepted into a Computer Engineering MSc. I will focus completely in embedded systems!
Coding comments should express the WHY .... not the WHAT. And really ... your UNIT TESTS should demonstrate the HOW. But lazy employees and managers just want the product out the door and all the bugs fixed yesterday.
couple of red flags @ 52:15
"I never solved an integral" - Jones
"I never solved a differential" - Jack
Fun thing you brought it up Jack; actually most of us Software Engineers at Audi (VW) do speak English ;)
And some watch your and Daves blog :)
Fantastic interview Dave. Jack is a very inspiring person. I went to one of his seminars once, and must say, the guy knows what he is talking about.
13:50 This is why I am phasing out of software and into engineering .... software is full of snake oil and manipulative middle management, and the staffing firms? OMG .... so bad. I still have plenty of coding ahead of me however, but thanks to channels like yours I am able to learn EE and not blow up too many caps and LEDs. 😂
Thank you for this interview, I really enjoyed it, Thanks again.You are great.
Ah... I'm up to the last bit on Quantum Computing... Actually Jack, someone who has experience with tubes and superheterodyning is probably in a better position to understand the sloshy wave-function nature of quantum algorithms than a pure digital boy. The D-Wave device is an 'Adiabatic' machine; which is sort of like building a computer out of diode logic because you don't have transistors yet. Not a 'full' quantum machine that can do loops and error correction, but a machine that "relaxes' into a minimum energy configuration that corresponds with an answer to the problem. I wouldn't quite call it "smoke and mirrors" because they always said "Adiabatic" in their PR, It's just everyone in the press gallery then nodded like they knew what that meant. The cryocooler works, and that's a big thing. They'll upgrade the chip on the end over time.
Interactive RTOS FORTH86 works 7 gen kaby lake laptop running windows 10 creators fall update [10/1703:16299.309]. www.prosefights.org/irp2014/windscammers7.htm#dotfiles Jack wrote, "I hate forth".
I go back and watch this every few months. So real, so down to earth, these two guys together. Brilliant.
Risc-V open source 32 bit and 64 bit chips, royalty free, could replace 32 bit ARM processors in electronics due to the ARM Tax?
Western Digital is one company that is replacing the ARM processors in their new hard drives with a Risc-V chip.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC-V
riscv.org
VW (Volkswagen) are doing wrong things under the US Law. They build to good motors and made it with a lower volume possible to have much PS (horse powers). Other US car manufacturer can not build engines like this - see the SUV product line from US car company's 5liter motor volume and 200hp! Do you really thing they make it better to reduce the exhaust of there cars. I say NO.
More volume and lower hp - how should that work with the exhaust volume??? Do you think in Australia the big fire come from nothing and your air is clean then a baby ass!? I say NO. this is the reaction of all exhausts off all gasoline driven machines and the industry.
Arduino: the question is correct I think that Arduino make no new engineers! only bliniki blinki LEDs - Who progamm a blinking LED like this? LED ON; wait 1000; LED OFF; wait 1000 ??? Do you think the µController is waiting a 1000ms during this "wait 1000"? I say NO. What you can do during the time that the µC is waiting - nothing! Nobody learn to program with this stupid Language in a µController! For this stupid programming still you need for your country a nuclear burner more because in during the wait the µC run in a pooling loop. The answer is hard you must learn assembler and program a timer to loop a LED and sleep during wait but nobody can do this because this is to complicated for a starter and it is boring for the beginner. The you learn C and Phyton3 and machine learning. To the FPGA my story is unbelievable. During I make a FPGA project with Altera EPM7128 and finish this the price from the EPM7128 jumps from Austrian Schilling 120,- (year 2000) to ATS 360,- so the electronic can't made any more for this price what I calculate and we must close. After this experience that the "chip exchange Montreal" bought total year productions of Altera and trade them for 3-5 times the price all markets where death in this years. Never more I build a project with a FPGA and without a 2nd source of a chip.
But thumbs up! Thank you for this Video - a little bit non-sharp on my TV it looks like
Super interesting talk! I really enjoyed it.
I couldn't agree more with the advice that Jack gave. In fact, I am a software engineer with almost no EE background. Two years ago I changed job to work on embedded software (ARM SoCs). Colleagues of mine are hardware designers and I got curious about HDL and that sort of stuff. So I bought myself an FPGA board and started to hack around. I can confirm that writing Verilog may not be so easy when you have a C background but developing e.g. an FM stereo encoder on FPGA is certainly fun and enlightening :)
Now I'm a bit surprised that Open Source was not mentioned as a potential way of mitigating some issues with embedded software (reliability/robustness/compliance...). You know, Linus's law: "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow"...
We should think about ethics..... IT IS CRIMINAL NOT TO DO SO! But take a look into apps, what kind of information is accessed, is that really nessesarry? TV that route your viewing information to remote serves all without your no knowing. I do no want to think what IOT/IOE is going to bring....
I'm not a very successful financially, but I don't think we are going to get quantum computing anytime some. It is always going to be 10 years off - just like fusion. I also was wrong about on demand video, so maybe I'm wrong about fusion, and quantum computing. Also, I totally agree with the mathematics curriculum was ridiculous for the EE degree I recieved; I remember getting through Calculus III, and then finally taking Analytical Analysis; On the first day of this Analytical Analysis class the instructor, said "all those Calculus classes you took isn't really how we solve integrals and derivatives; we just use computers to solve these equations with analytical approximations- down to about 99.999999 accuracy. I was so furious when I learned these Calculus classes I took were arcane in the sciences today.
Today is the first day my searching fingers introduced me to first to Dave and within three clicks and two hours at retired and 70 years old I digitally met the two guys I wish I had known over coffee my whole life...
That said, you're both so much farther down, ( or up? ), the "Rabbit Hole" than my miles of experience in mechanoelectron life. But the tears in my eyes come from joining two minds that see as I see. And that may actually say volumes as to why we delve in to all the disciplines where we are led to the answers our imaginations require us to go! If it were a "choice" , we would choose not to go. But cause and effect coupled to dreaming leave it to inevitable....
Thank you Gentlemen.
Christopher Workmon
Does anybody have any suggestions in regards to textbooks that cover wireless communication (WiFi type things, Transcievers, wireless propagation channels, etc.)? I'm looking at "Wireless Communications" by Andreas F Molish but am fairly new to the topic and am unsure of how complex this text is. I'm doing an independent study with a professor of mine and the inevitable goal is to restructure our Electronic Communications course to include digital wireless communications on top of the current analog superheterodyne radios that we cover in depth! After all, its not 1930 anymore and digital communication is a very integral tool to the modern EE/Embedded designer! Any help is appreciated! Thanks!
I started with the Intel 8008. ... Yes, sufficient reverse voltage on an electrolytic capacitor may make it explode. ... Get the impression Dave and Jack don't want to do the hard work to make the design work, bumming as Dave said. Yes, "Da Man" has to get results to pay people. ... Good interview, thanks.
Gosh, did I hear correctly? Mr. Ganssle, you have doubts about whether solving ordinary differential equations is an important component of electrical engineering!!! What about the Laplace transform, which converts an ODE into a polynomial equation, and allows the engineer to answer all sorts of important questions about their circuits? Steady state and transient behavior, stability of feedback systems, Bode plots, and much more. These things cannot be understood without understanding ODEs, how to formulate them, solve them, and interpret the solutions. Tsk, tsk, we have an important disagreement about what should be required in an undergraduates EE curriculum.
NASA was looking recently for a programmer to communicate with a computer chip twenty plus years old and far, far away. So I guess that NASA is keeping tech from advancing. Thank you for another great video ! tjl
Oh god yeah I know what you mean about the "maker" movement. It kind of ruins the hobby in that it end sup being a means to an end. It's tools for developing a "product" and getting it to market, rather than tools that promote learning and figuring out how stuff works. The resources for that aren't nearly as promoted. All the information is out there, but the whole maker culture just glosses over it. Making money is where the demand is though. The culture just reinforces that.
i'm having this problem right now .
i can do arduino and all that jazz but I wanna go in deeper .
for example i don't have problems writing directly to ports .
But for all else i'm having a really hard time understanding the documentation .
And since everyone is using the libraries i'm having a hard time finding well explained low level code aswell .
Really interesting discussion. I'm a retired mechanical engineer but life long electronic fiddler. I can remember in college when Maxwell's Equations suddenly clicked and it all seemed so obvious. Around the same time I read a series of articles in Popular Electronics? about how transistors can make simple gates and counters ect. and can be combined into registers, memory, stacks and into a computer. I lost the feeling of familiarization with Maxwell's Equations within weeks but have never gotten over my love for microprocessors. Guess I'm not alone.
I loved the comment "oh my god, there's registers". Granted, it was more profound when I actually figured out what the hell a register was. When you get that and understand what's really physically going on inside the chip, it's like you've been stumbling through a giant room with a flashlight that only reveals a tiny area at a time and then you find the light switch.
"and a week later, they were like what the heck was I thinking"
I thought I was the only person who had this problem! I write a few thousand lines of code, look at it week later, and struggle to understand what I was thinking during my marathon of coding.
Does anyone else do binge design and coding? I've found the most productive for me to be starting on a Saturday, and just going through till mid day on Sunday whenever the project is done.
Yes I can't stand "Internet of Things" either! Most people have no idea what IoT even means, but on the bright side, if you say you're building IoT, investors may be more likely to throw money at you.
About the electronic remote lightbulb - I bet this will chance as soon as you have a siri like computer controlling your home. People will prefer saying "computer, light off!" than moving their arm or even walking to the light switch :D
A good conversation. Got me to thinking about the ethical problem at Volkswagen that began it and the social media engineering that ended it. Engineers make things work, yes, but today the unintended consequences of designs emerge much faster than they used to. I am talking about large side-effects far beyond just technical possibilities, but social and political ones. I think that any day now some engineers who works for one of the social media companies may find him or herself standing in front to a judge and facing criminal liability not just for an ethical lapse of the kind we just saw with Volkswagen, but for a tort that resulted from a design. It would not surprise me if a legal case emerged against something Facebook or Google did for which some engineer applying "Signals and Codes" problem solving to natural language and social engineering where it could be shown that there was a moral issue. Just because something is possible to do does not mean it should be done.
I have rubbed shoulders with software and electrical engineers for years around Silicon Valley and I find them to be too specialized both intellectually and in training. They suffer from immense hubris and too often spout off on topics they have too little knowledge while thinking that they know the science to hold opinions. Engineers are not scientists mostly because the imperative to fix things, while nobel, is exactly the opposite of the suspension of judgement that is central to science. I am trained as a geologist and I know that to do that discipline requires an broad background in many physical and biologic disciplines and to spend most of your time defining critical tests of ideas and wait for the data to be obtained, often at great cost. One does not go off half cocked.
This with the code validation is true and it works look up Hoare logic. This stuff is hardcore and often done by mathematicians you need a lot of practice for it. You simple say what comes in and what comes out of the function and what are the side effects. More then often errors become at that stage obvious because the target were to waky defined before that.
The problem with you can't find many people who are both expert in electronics and software is also true. I see on the local job exchange 2 jobs which are out for 3 months + with out getting closed(linux Kernel driver/ general electronics & software engineer ) both jobs in the car industries.
Wish I was there!!! So stimulating. I think, learn about P/N junctions yes, but how long will it be for another physical basis for logic matures? Then there's all the genetics that has matured in this century. I read that on a dare, some genetics doctoral students engineered e. coli to smell like peppermint instead of excrement. They were careful and destroyed it afterwards. Their connection to electronics is that they need to program computers, often parallel ones, to study things in their field.
I worked for a short time project managing for the UK home Office, and the project I worked on required a software review by the security services, so it does happen when it really counts, which can be a very good thing.
So the Maker-Culture is bad because people are only using the APIs, but using quantum computing only through an API is cool?
I have to disagree with your comments said at the 12 minute mark. I've been an embedded designer for 30 years and now I've been unemployed for 2 years and I see no one who is looking for an experienced EE. Everyone is looking for something less expensive.
Oh, man. This hurts my heart. 25 year programmer and I’m completely distressed by the number of pure hacks in the industry that churn out complete crap. Sad it’s so prevalent .
Jack Ganssle should play portal 2.
The problem solving in that game would help him to understand why people enjoy computer games and it would also show him why some people can enjoy opera.
Omg this is legendary 🙌
Around 36:00: It's not so much that people have an aptitude in engineering or science so much as people have some kind of hobby that they're in to that isn't just media consumption.
i'm a self-taught embedded software engineer. Maybe one of the worst engineers you've ever seen. But, its possible to build the skills at home because electronics are so cheap nowadays
About the internet of things discussion: I don't care how much you want to pay me, I am NOT attaching my door locks to the internet...
I'd be curious to hear your position on Computer Engineering as a major. It is really designed to be a bridge between electrical engineering and computer science, but both are really stripped down to be geared towards electronics. I personally have liked it a lot, but it does seem like it skips useful parts of both to trim it down to 4 years.
It looks like D-Wave actually has a quantum annealer, so something like an analog quantum computer, not really a quantum computer in the CS way of speaking
I watched it and I liked it. But did I waste my time? Are conversations a waste of time? No doubt that I won't remember anything of this in a day. So was there any use in this action?
I like to not think about it because thinking about what is a waste of time and what not is depressing and again a waste of time. A human without hapiness is not able to use any of his time so I just try to enjoy every second. And every second I enjoyed is worth it's time. So I enjoyed myself during this video making the time spent worth it. Does this make sense?
! billion dollar fine ... Not sure of how many cars Toyota manufactures and how much profit each car contains but on first hand it sounds like a really bad result ... I think even worse than that seat belt recall ..
So good to listen to some old hands talk shop! And I agree with Jack about 'software quality' being a constant core issue that shakes out in many negative ways - reliability and security being the main ones. (And VW now adds 'trust'.) The essential tension is between two sides that say "we must be able to see the source code, because our lives depend on it" and the paranoia camp who say "we can't release the source code, because people's lives depend on it!" In both cases, manufacturers are reluctant to show their work, rather than proudly display it for all to see and verify. Perhaps code that needs to be 'protected' isn't good code. Or perhaps embedded systems are inherently more vulnerable, because they simply don't have the CPU to fend off concerted external attacks. It's a discussion that needs having. "Software is not just something you throw in there." Never a truer word said.
24:44 Yea i bet that Arduino make people of all ages happy and smile at freaking blinking LED.
Deadlines blocking further optimizations are the biggest enemies of my perfectionism.
I was a little bit surprised (of course positive) when a colleague entered the office who looks like Mr. Ganssle :)
@5:25 - A layperson might be surprised at the amount of EB Green (duct tape) we use in submarines.
Excellent vid. Why didn't i find this one earlier - two legends behind one camera. - thanks guys
In my university, the Electrical and Computer Engineering Department they want to do something to get teenagers to EE, even with 220 new students per year in Electrical and Computer Engineering, but they want better students to get into the department, because in here all good students go to med school.
Funny to here at 33:00 about silicon doping, that is what we learn in the first semester in chemistry (and we learn about photovoltaic panels and lcd technology), we also learn vhdl programing, and it is one of the most interesting parts of the freshman year.
Loved it! One of my favourite episodes of EEVBlog. It's been quite time when I was googling so many stuff while listening to this talk.
Regarding 37:00 There is also the j-core processor where you don't pay tax but it's not finished yet.
Brilliant vid - two greats line up for a wonderful time. Like a two body syzygy.
Being arrested by suspicious fascists because they are too stupid to recognize computer chips. Good times, good times.
This is why Ada was invented and used more and more for many things. Planes medical devises etc
frequent desk tap, lot exaggerated emotional expression is making difficult to listen. ...
When I search for Jack Ganssle on UA-cam I get this video :-)
Bad part about engineering is when you get so far in it people start acting as if they don't understand you anymore.
The story about integral, look like they enjoy teaching you something you'll never need