Race and IQ - Sam Harris and Charles Murray Set the Record Straight on Intelligence Testing
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- Опубліковано 23 кві 2017
- This is an excerpt from episode 73 of Waking Up with Sam Harris, published on the 22nd of April 2017, titled Forbidden Knowledge, in which Sam Harris talks to Charles Murray about racial, cultural, and gender specific IQ differences..
You can listen to the entire episode here: / 73-forbidden-knowledge
Every time I watch the news, I see the Bell Curve in full effect.
Some things never change I guess.
So true.
I see the old Dunning-Kruger effect more than anything else.
The hardest skill to learn is the skill to know when you don't have the skill. Sometimes the best thing a person can do is admit they cannot do it.
It blows my mind how weak minded people are about race and IQ. Why do you need to believe that every single group of people are exactly equal, when it's so demonstrably false?
The research Murray has done specificly demonstrates average group differences, phosphoric.
I have a strong mind and can never trust left-handed vegetarians with a broken leg. This group! They are dragging us down, weak minded. What a paradise this would be without them!
stonetrouble This isn't about genocide, it's about liberals looking at group differences in income, employment, etc. and chalking up inequality to "white privilege". Race and IQ explains the world far more coherently and it means we can stop blaming whitey for everything.
It contradicts the liberal narrative that everyone is infinitely malleable via education. That personality, personal identity and IQ can all be remade to their ideal if you just lecture people enough.
IQ tests measure intellectual potential...with potential being the operative segment of that term.
Real life is the biggest indicator for truth. I live outside of a major city, and you can see the disparity whenever you go downtown. I took the metro to a baseball game, all you see at the station are my people (blacks) either panhandling, playing music/dancing, or standing around smoking. On the commute it's all uppity whites internally fearful but having to subconsciously pretend it's due to the poverty or slavery. On the train we'll be the loudest and most disruptive, but whites have to keep quiet because they fear being called racist. We arrive at the stadium (in the most gentrified area) and its all blacks bargaining waters, hats, tickets, and whites give them money either out of guilt or shame. In the stadium its whites in the press boxes and office rooms while blacks do the most simple jobs like punch your ticket or pass out beers. Its just fascinating to me how unnatural the interactions are. More so how much we go thru life lying to ourselves about reality and why things are the way they are. I feel 2nd hand embarrassment when I'm in the city because they look at me and instantly play the white guilt complex or expect me to internally hate them, or act like the rest. Its like we've been fed lies about reality to shield our emotions, and if you don't believe the lie then you're evil, heartless, etc. I think the phrase is moralistic fallacy, but public opinion is definitely the most powerful thing in a democratic, heterogeneous society.
Thank you for telling it like it is, James. Stating facts is all you are doing. If a White person were to have wrote what you did a certain idiot here would have denounced you calling you a racist. For some reason he hates the truth and would rather prove himself to be a liar. Thank God not all are like him.
James, I feel yuh, And I love this observation. I think these two guys are happy with these STUDIES by WHOMEVER because they are on the right side of the CURVE.. Seems like a club, the 80/20 club all over the world make the rules for that particular STUDY.
100%
@@tomyocom5886i’m sorry are you saying there is no correlation between race and IQ?
"subconsciously pretend it's due to the poverty or slavery"
lmao
Wake up people ,we are different .
@@ricardoluque1931 lies. Black people were oppressed
karabo mothupi you just proved his point, tragically
@@sadpixel8533 How you Neanderthal?
@Roy Rogers all I'm saying is that white lions are better faster and strong than the old boring yellow lion. IQ100000000
@Tyler Durden true
As a white European man, I have no problem with science showing Eastern Asians on average being smarter than "my" group. And Ashkanasi Jews being smarter than Eastern Asians, on average.
Yes, as they say; there is a lot more variation within groups than between groups.
Wouldn't you still have to say its cultural in the end though? Jews are semites, they are genetically similar to those in the fertile crescent. Yet arabs and palestinians have iqs in the 80s while ashkenazi jews are 115 averages. They outscore they northerners which are supposed to be the smartest.
Saying "who gives a fuck there's variation" is exactly on point, and probably the simplest way to put it lol.
Until you have Jacob Zuma in South Africa as your president!
@Dominique Bender you're making a horrible assumption about "smart people", without backing it up at all. Surely you're smart enough to know that you need to prove that shit without just saying "A SMRT GUY WAS BAD!111111!!!!1!"
Still trying to figure out why people on my campus called him a white supremacist. Seems like at worst he is just a contraversial social scientists who is asking taboo questions.
If you don't believe all of the values of the current ideology of social justice then you are a racist apparently.... get a grip college students :p
He is talking about people having inferior intelligence because of their race. Most people show IQ lists of countries and conclude that because European countries have higher IQ it's because of their race.....somehow not taking into account that African and Middle Eastern countries are poorer, have less schools and therefore less education which will lower the scores of whatever tests they take.
Because Western Educational Systems have been infiltrated by psychotic marxist lefties who proliferate pure emotional lunacy.
Clearly you haven't read the book if you think he didn't take that into account. And to be honest I haven't read the whole thing, but I have read enough of it, specifically the controversial chapters, to know that your statement is false.
Except when you listen to the data, even when all of those things are accounted for there is still a difference. If if had to do strictly with the differences in economy in these countries, why do we see that Asian's score higher than Europeans despite being from poorer countries on average? These studies are accounting for what you want, you're just dismissing it before you even read it.
We need to be honest about race and stop fearing the discussion
Agreed. Academia keeps trying to fit these square pegs into round holes. Instead of trying to raise the intellect of the lower scoring people? Perhaps we should make jobs for them that better fit their abilities.
We've been doing this a bit by putting blacks into transportation type jobs. Bus driver, train operator etc. Yet this trend should continue. Plus it's much more likely to succeed.
Roy Rogers oh of course not Neil de grasse Tyson is a smart guy smarter than me I’m just saying we don’t need to shy away from study this type genetics
Roy Rogers
well that’s not really to true their are many biological differences though minor they are result to short term adaptation. white people are more likely to get skin cancer because they lack melanin to protect them from the sun but white skin was an adaptation to cloudy cold climate, so white skin can absorb for vitamin D from the atmosphere than darker skin can. Europeans are more vulnerable to skin cancer. Caucasians which includes Europeans, middle easterns, Iranian, North Africans, and even Indians have more Neanderthal genetics, there is a racial and gender difference in the blood brain barrier (BBB) which protect brain from toxins in the blood, women have thicker BBB because they have to carry a child that creates more toxins in the body during the process. black people, on average, have thinner BBB than white people which leads them to be more vulnerable to toxins. Native Americans unlike Europeans cannot process alcohol like we can, this is why alcohol is such a big problem for Native Americans today. Hispanic people can’t process high fructose corn syrup as well as Europeans and Africans this makes them more vulnerable to obesity in America, because in many other nations they use real cane sugar instead of cheap corn gunk we use here. A large portion of the world that do not have Caucasian genetics are lactose intolerant because only Caucasian people really have a history of drinking animal milk. African people on average have more high twitch muscle fibers than all the other people this is why majority of medal winning runners are African. Also why they on average are superior athletically, theirs a lot we can learn and explain from these genetic studies and to just burry our heads in sand and avoid the topic isn’t productive or helpful for anyone.
We all agree that we want to live in society where we’re all treated equal by the law I know that something we can all agree regardless of genetic differences.
Jorge Callico no let people get they job that they’re best qualified for, I’m not calling to assign jobs based on racial characteristics this would be horrible to do
We all agree that we want to live in society where we’re all treated equal by the law I know that something we can all agree regardless of genetic differences.
Roy Rogers true but races in one form or another are geographic families so there’s no fineline of genetic differences but “races” refer to the different gene pools of the same species. Gene pools are different because of geographical location or environment for example human gene pool of Europe is a gene pool because they share a multitude of traits such as facial structure and white skin that is an environmental adaptation to colder sunless environment this goes same for gene pool from Africa that has more darker skin to protect them from equator sun rays. “Race” is simply a synonym for gene pools; these gene pools are not genetically different enough to be considered different species
"we're doing enormous harm to young people by making it harder to treat them as individuals"
You hit the nail on the head there buddy. I don't want to be tokenized or mistreated based on my group identity. I don't want to be judged, accepted or rejected based on group identity. I certainly don't want to make a habit of judging others based on any superficial category they might fit into
they dont like to touch on this subject because it explains a lot of difference in outcome
Lol no it doesn’t. You’re establishing a causal link when there isn’t one.
They prefer blaming White ppl for everything
@@chrisp4908 how is it not causal? The single best predictor that an employer can use if they only had one metric is IQ. They mention that before they even talk about tace
@RoLodge Hotels & Resorts as always instead of looking at your own flaws you blame the ones who were more successful than you (whites and Asians) for your own failures. Just like gentiles blamed and continue to blame the Jews.
@@chrisp4908 correlation may not be causality but it definitely suggests causality. Bill Gates states from his own experience at Microsoft that the best predictor of a performance of an engineer is the IQ. He definitely knows what he is talking about
I'm a black person and I have to say about his book, I don't see why people reacted so violently to it. It seems very rational, objective and not racially biased. As a society we need open discussions not intimidation and suppression of valid ideas.
I can see why they stuck to the data and only made the most obvious A clearly implies B kind of arguments, or people would go up in arms, and also the talk would last 6 hours and devolve into a quagmire of metaphysical abstraction and boredom. When you talk about intelligence, there are a lot of metaphysical ideas that you need to tackle if you want a solid thesis.
Wish I could say the talk was very informative, it confirmed my own views in a way however I do have a couple of remarks:
1-
Something they didn't talk about (I assume because of how much there is to say about it) is the intrinsic potential of the human mind. I'm willing to bet that if you put an average (Western) guy from today into the 1300s, he would be the smartest human being alive by far, and any IQ test would prove that. But today he is just average not because his brain is more advanced in any way, it's not genetic or biological, or even dietary, it's about access to information.
That's what I think most intelligent people who argue for universal equality are arguing for.
If you extrapolate into the future it's almost certain that with advancing technology an average person 500 years from now will be far smarter than even the smartest person alive.
What I'm trying to say is the potential of the human mind has not been explored in great detail, and until we know that we can't say someone is smarter intrinsically, because you haven't controlled for all the variables.
2- As for black people, we are incredibly genetically diverse, and you can't call all black people the same race any more than I can call Europeans, East Asians and Arabs the same race just because they have the same skin colour. There are more genetic differences between individual Africans than between Africans and anyone else.
I know it's hard to tell the differences if you haven't been to Africa, so I won't count it as a major flaw, just an observation that people tend to lump all black-skin people into one group when it's incredibly diverse genetically.
Finally, It's a shame human beings are limited to speech to communicate, it's pretty crude and slow an leaves a lot of room for miscommunication.
I can tell they both have far more knowledge on this issue than they simply can't express in a reasonable amount of time.
Speaking of thought, I think the ultimate proof of the pudding for intelligence potential is directly measuring the processing power and capacity, both current and potential. I don't know how you would do this, maybe the number of thoughts per minute or the electrical signal activity, but activity alone doesn't mean intelligence as I'm sure a crack head brain is firing much faster than a normal person but their thoughts are very low quality for the most part, so you need to somehow weigh thought quality and thought speed and perhaps other things I'm neglecting.
The problem with measured intelligence like IQ scores is you can argue all damn day about different variables that can't be controlled for. Someone who's never had the privilage of going to school to learn maths won't do well on math-based IQ questions, likewise someone who went to a good school will likely do much better in IQ tests simply because they learnt a lot of the skills the IQ test tests for.
Phil W Your analogy about the man from today being transported to the 1300s was addressed in the interview- this is called the Flynn affect.
Also, you mentioned that blacks people are incredibly diverse. While I have no hard numbers to go by, I think the same point can be made for caucasians and Asians. Both races have many subsets within them that greatly diversify the pool of IQ data yet still fall under the umbrella of "race".
Finally, there are many flaws with the IQ test as you mentioned. However, the greatest argument for its credibility is its predictive validity. Those who do well on the IQ test, on a long enough time scale, will show greater rates of success in life. IQ and race match a scatter plot overlay of income, assets, and education with precision when comparing races. The core of his assertion on predictive validity is largely bolstered by these metrics.
OK; let me -answer- address each of these in turn:
1-
My assertion was, the diversity within black people is so great that many black people are far more closely related to Europeans and East Asians than to other blacks people.
If you can draw a line on a page with the width representing a genetic continuum and place bars where each race starts and begins (there can be gaps as well), you will see that for Africans, the end that is closest to the Whites and East Asians is far closer to them than it is to the other end of what is considered black, and the genetic differences between whites and East Asians are *far smaller* than the differences among black people themselves, yet they are considered separate races and blacks people are *one single race*.
As you said, with diversity in genetics comes a similar diversity in intelligence and blacks have the greatest diversity of all the "races". This diversity is unexplored, but I would like to know for sure if there actually are significant differences within African ethnicities.
2-
I'm not arguing the validity of the IQ test itself. What I'm arguing is, and I'm glad you made me clarify this in my own mind, that there is a difference in saying "race A scores higher than race B" and then asserting that the difference is genetic. It might well be genetic, but until you control for everything else (including your definition of race), you can't say that the underlying basis for this difference is genetic.
As Sam Harris likes to say, science is built on rigor, and the first thing you learn in any decent science class is the importance of controlling for variables, and if you can't control for them understand them fully and adjust your results based on the most probable ways they affected the experiment.
In this instance, Charles Murray conceded that he can't control for all the variables, that he doesn't know what all the variables are, and yet without making it clear that this is not a scientifically solid finding, go on to make extraordinary and broad statements about race.
I know social sciences are not held up to the same standard as physics or chemistry, but come on! They could have added an asterisk.
3-
No, this is not the flynn effect. The flynn effect covers a span of time in which the fundamental teaching methods and the basic nature of what students are taught remained very similar, at least for white kids. Please allow me to explain how that is *fundamentally* not the same as from 1300s Europe to today:
Access to information has dramatically changed due to the internet, however I believe you get diminishing returns at some point as you switch over from most of a person's intelligence being defined by their lack of *knowledge* (1300s Europe, parts of modern day Africa) to it being determined primarily by their ability to use that information to solve problems.
To this end for instance, you see a far smaller gap between East Asia and Europe (problem solving gap) where individuals have similar amounts of information and the main difference is simply how much more practice East Asians in general get at solving problems, just look up South Korean study habits and compare them to Norway which is only slightly lower in IQ to see what I mean. This difference in my view explains the gap. It's not that East Asians are intrinsically or genetically more intelligent than Norwegians, they just practice a lot more at the kinds of things that make you better at taking IQ tests.
The gap between Europe/East Asia/White America etc and Sub Saharan Africa is much, *much* bigger. BUT, and I know this might seem preposterous to a lot of white people at first, I don't think your average African is that much different in intelligence to your average white person in terms of their mental capacity, the difference is mostly in *attainment*.
My reason for making that claim is I've lived in both Kenya and Norway for years, and as an outside observer I have had plenty of time and opportunity to observe ( mostly inside bedroom closets ;) ) the reality for myself. So I'm speaking from some personal experience not simply speculation or wishful thinking.
I can say with *complete certainty* that a similarly educated Rwandese or Kenyan will be just as smart as your average European or Asian.
The IQ scores overall are dragged down by the huge number of people with very little or no education, and in some cases malnutrition which can cause severe mental retardation. It's absolutely *not fair* to compare an Ivy League student to a starving kid whose brain got stumped due to malnutrition on the same test and use the results to claim that white people are smarter than black people.
Yes they are smarter at the moment, but you have to be careful to add that this does not have any bearing on genetic differences, it's primarily nutritional and informational differences, and in the case of the gap between East Asians and Europeans, it's primarily cultural not genetic differences. The issue here is confirmation bias, specifically the tendency for white people to assume they are genetically more intelligent than other races when in fact the gap is as I said primarily in the education, nutrition and not least cultural ethic towards education.
These are all things can, like the gap between 1300s Europe and Europe today, can be corrected. But until that's done and people have *equal footing* in terms of access to information, access to proper nutrition and so on, it's completely not fair to make the comparison any more than I can go to a little kid and claim I'm stronger than him.
I think a fair comparison if you wanted to see the real difference in racial IQ scores would be to control for environment, make sure each side of the sample is in the same situation economically which I see no indication they tried to do with regards to Africa, and make sure to separate the African races (Cushite, Bantu, Khoi-San and West African) which not only are genetically more different than say East Asians and Europeans, their languages, cultures and histories are equally different.
Phil W I largely agree with your points, however, some of what you're saying was addressed in the interview. For example, I believe that they acknowledge environmental factors have a great impact on realizing genetic potential. Furthermore, I think an argument for the Flynn affect can still be made in your analogy, though i do concede that your clarification of that analogy does differentiate from that theory.
All other point I fully agree with. I think it's very much worth exploring the impact of structure and environment on IQ. However, this poses the question: how and why have some structures proven so much more superior throughout the world and how can we prevent lagging areas in the future?
The impact of structure and environment immense:
It is as large as the difference between Oxana Malaya, the Ukranian girl raised by dogs who mimics them and has trouble forming sentences, and Susan Polgar, the girl raised to be a chess grandmaster.
Human beings are (much more than any other animal) utterly reliant on society not just for their physical needs, but for their mental development.
I'm not denying that some people have a natural aptitude for logical thinking, creativity, imagination or any other intellectual activity, however I personally believe that we haven't even come close to developing a system which takes people to saturation point for the capacity of the human mind to understand, i.e we are not operating at maximum ability.
Because of this, even the most genetically "mediocre" person born today could be raised to become a prodigy in any field, be it music or math, literature or philosophy, it doesn't matter, our education system does not fully capitalize on each individual's capacity to learn.
I don't think there is much you can do in terms of social restructuring other than explain to people how valuable and enjoyable a good education is and promoting educated people as heroes and icons as opposed to the Kardashians.
Something I find very troubling is how a lot of black people in America genuinely think education is for unattractive nerdy scrawny guys who can't play ball or whatever, that attitude desperately needs to be reversed somehow.
I don't have much hope for this generation of African Americans, but perhaps it's possible to hook their kids using the natural curiosity that every child is born with but in African American "hood" culture is dissuaded or perversely channeled into other areas, and instead find a way to nurture it. The internet is a very powerful tool for this, you need only to pull one string.
If a person is curious about the world, intellectual pursuits stop becoming a chore and start becoming a pleasurable pastime, and from there, with a little guidance, almost anyone can make the sacrifices necessary to go into higher education and become a valuable member of society.
In terms of lagging areas globally, I see two major problems: Africa and the Middle East.
The Middle East is strange because it's not that they don't want to be smarter, nor is it a lack of resources, it's this obscene cluster of irrelevant data which they spend years hammering into their kids heads in "madrassa" called the Koran. It functions like a chain ball to their intelligence, and the practice of putting kids in what amounts to religious recital classes instead of opening their minds to new ideas is what keep them lagging behind. I don't know what can be done to solve this problem.
Africa is just a matter of economic under-development. As I mentioned, I grew up there, and I did not get the same education you probably did in terms of quality or quantity of ideas and interesting problems to open my mind.
Frequently you had 40-50 kids in a class yelling louder than a motorcycle engine next to your ear, made it very difficult to concentrate. On the plus side I developed an ability to block out the outside world and focus on reading novels or whatever else. You also had kids sharing desks, books, pencils, cruel and stupid teachers etc. Those kids did not get a quality education at all. But the education style was in principle the same as here in the West; Math, English, Geography, Science, History etc, it's just the quality was very bad.
So in most of Africa, people are learning things without religious interference at least for now.
So if you want to prevent this area from falling behind, the best tool again is the internet, access to information that they simply don't have at the moment. Some tech companies are starting to roll out cheap internet access in specific areas, time will tell if this changes things.
Ultimately I'm very excited about Elon Musk's new venture, Neural Link, which hopes to invent a device called the nurallace. I'm an avid fan of Iain Banks sci-fi series and Elon got the idea from there to build essentially a direct cortical connection to the computer, allowing thought-speed connection from machine to human and vice versa, and probably human to human eventually. Imagine being able to download something like the understanding you gained from watching this podcast directly, without having to wait the 40 minutes it takes for us to move our mouth parts in the right order to convey these ideas. We also won't be bandwidth limited to using these stubby sausages to push little buttons in order to input something in a computer. It's fantastic, and if it's realized will fundamentally change our ideas of intelligence, learning and maybe even individuality and death. I alluded to this earlier when I said I wanted to tap into Sam Harris's mind directly.
Phil W your balanced perspective is refreshing. Kudos to you for pursuing truth through reason instead of emotion.
I actually enjoyed reading your comments.
Murray’s final remark is absolutely poetic.
Things that affect IQ;
Genetics (pic smart spouses ladies)
Environment (nutrition is nowhere near where it needs to be omg)
Training (meditators and musicians regularly score higher than those who don't do those things)
Iodine. Dr. Jorge Flechas did work on this. It makes children brilliant. If every child took enough iodine, a lot of these problems would be non-issues.
You’re confusing causation vs correlation in your last one
Thank you both for having this conversation.
"Cultural bias"
I am sick to death of people trying to push the idea that all cultures are of equal value.
Some cultures are superior to others; that's what I know to be true, so it's a bias I can live with.
Correct. Western culture based on the reasoning methods of Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates - after whom the Socratic Method is named - has proven to be a vastly superior system for raising society's living standards.
A key example of how this was true is with the German NAZI party. They were elite - well maybe not as they lost the war and didn't use their great IQ to win. Maybe it's a case of sadness. Maybe the Germans are cleaver just their ability of winning wars is far lower than that of them starting wars. Meh America actually do better than Germany here.
Flux, it took the United States, Great Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and others, to defeat Nazi Germany. The more you look into WW2 history the more awesome the Germans look.
The more you look at it the more you realize that the Soviets were going to beat the Germans without any help.
If Germany + Japan attacked the USSR on two fronts it would have collapsed. Germany couldn't touch great Britain even more impossible for it to reach the USA. The USSR was hard enough for Germany to force to submission. Large land = supply chains stretched too thin. Crossing the ocean= Naval superiority goes to the one who needs it most aka British. crossing the pacific or Atlantic to fight on another continent is just impossible against an experienced USA. Nazism= magical thinking. USA> British> USSR > Germany> Japan. the 5 powerful nations in world war two from most to least. If the USA didn't fight, and the British didn't join and Germany and japan teamed up the USSR would have been finished. why did the Germans lose magical thinking, and trying to do more than humanly possible against experienced Nations. You have to spend a lot of resources to fight a large war, France was not mentally prepared for war, everyone else was.
I love the background. The black is gloriously good for battery on my AMOLED screen, because I'm _not_ paying YT subscription just to turn off my screen when listening.
I have been an educational therapist for 25 years, teaching clients one-on-one. I review and tailor my instruction based on cognitive (IQ) testing ... I also have a degree in mathematics and have taught that. The fact is most Americans have poor/weak math skills (NAEP testing reports that only 25% of high school seniors are rated as "proficient" in math ... that has been my experience as a math teacher too) ... IQ test scores are based on Statistics ... few people understand Statistics ... even many college educated and professional people ... Hence IQ testing is grossly misunderstood by the public!
Statistics is a very understanding subject to study at the College level,
😂 good god
What? @@jamesbedukodjograham5508
I think anyone who has interacted with the public would intuit this
Thank you for your insight.
Saying whites are smarter than black and have a higher I.Q. is no more racist than saying blacks are better athletes. Different races have different abilities. Just because the truth is not always what you want to hear does not mean it is not true or makes the person saying it a racist.
Luke mccoy Are black really naturally better athletes?
Minkki82 exactly, well said.
There's empirical evidence that suggest african americans are better athletes? Source?
Joshua I. ESPN.
"Blacks" are not better at sports, that's a stupid American-centric overgeneralization; certain people coming from very specific parts of East Africa are excellent runners. You can't just take any random person from Africa or Harlem, put them on a treadmill and expect them to out-best everyone else. And for the record, we don't really know why exactly runners from East Africa are such good runners, genetics is one possible explanation but there are many other equally valid theories such as environmental and cultural.
Good stuff! Need more discussions and more information like this.
The 100m dash doesn't indicate how fast you are. It only indicates how good you are at running the 100m dash.
And if you ask Jamaican running coaches, they will explain that sprinting is a skill that is trained and honed through practice (the environment), as well as requiring physical strength which can be improved through work (the environment). Outsiders throw up their hands and say "Wow! Those Jamaicans are just miraculously fast". Jamaicans understand it differently, that they love running and races, and start training and racing from a young age. They became the best in the world by not looking to genetics.
Huh? It’s genes...
@Charles Maybe because there aren’t that many Asian athletes?
@@ilikepancakes2368 In 2019, approximately 7.13 million people participated in major running sport events held in China. Also in 2019, there were 2.9 million living Jamaicans.
@@ComradeOgilvy1984ok now apply that to particle physics…..
I'm so damned intelligent that I turned the volume off and was able to understand this interesting conversation from the spectrogram displayed alone. Where does that place me on the Bell Curve???
Me too!
🤣
I tried that too, but then realized it was really Beethoven's 9th symphony.
I played it backwards and it said "Paul is dead".
TRUMP LOVES YOU it says
Probably at the Bell End...
things to keep in mind that can't be stated clearly enough:
1) average performance implies nothing about an individual
2) an individual's performance implies nothing about the average
3) small differences in average performance can have a large effect on overall performance/competitive performance (the smaller the winner's pool, the more it is representative of the group with a higher average performance)
4) average and overall performance can affect the individual at the social and psychological level in a positive or negative way.
Intelligence and worthiness have little relationship. There are a lot of intelligent arseholes.
That's some of the most boring trite and not needed common sense point by point commentary I've read in a long time, goes without saying garbage that really is largely inaccurate in the bigger picture anyway... when of course averages and individual scores are all inclusive in the big picture, in any type of dynamic multivariate thinking...
To merely point out that there is a distribution and one data point is not some microcosm representative of the whole hardly needs saying, stupid
1. Individual performance represents a fraction of the representative sampling, and thus indicates a percentage above or below the mean
1. Average performance indicates something about the individual, He is close to the median if not exactly on the median given equal proportions above and below him
3. Gaps in the metrics are huge between humans, Any small difference up or down from the average is overlooked compared to the top of the class or the bottom...
Disproportionate gaps represent the elite, not some small difference in the averages one way or the other...
Relative comparisons can be perception
what isn't a taboo on the left?
Simon Coles anything against whites people
@@brainbomb9482 Actually the new atheist movement is almost entirely populated by the reactionary right. The progressive movement generally sees religion as a force for good in the world.
@@brainbomb9482 Harris is a right winger,
hitchens pinker they are all right wing reactionaries.
@@brainbomb9482 Look at what Harris supports. He supported the Iraq war. Racial profiling ,torture, He supports the Israeli occupation, Racial disparities are caused by genetics, Everything he says is a right wing talking poin. All of those four horsemen are right wingers. Even Pinker defends the neo liberal status quo, thinks we are living in the least violent times thinks US power is used constructively. No progressive believes any of the things these atheists say.
Accepting logical fallacies as an argument?
No one has a problem saying blacks are genetically stronger and faster. It's positive, and It's also true. All truth should be embraced and accepted, even if it's negative, as long as it's true.
@Alan Roberts Blacks have higher rates of skeletal muscle fiber. It wouldn't make much sense for them to only be faster, not stronger.
I mean "Ever seen ice skating? Must mean whites are faster... " doesn't make sense for the same reason as pointing to Strongman competition.
@Alan Roberts I guess you missed the point of my ice skating analogy. Let's see if I can make it more clear.
If 90% of the participants of a sport are of one race; it's less likely to have a winner out of the remaining 10%. Not impossible. Less likely.
Same goes for swimming. Or boxing, it's basically impossible to have such a disproportionate amount of good boxers from Mexico on the basis of genes: it's cultural.
@Alan Roberts _"swimming; whites are better swimmers for physical reasons"_
Which physical attributes might that be?
_"they also tend to be stronger for physical reasons"_
Again, what reasons?
It's simply untrue for reasons I already mentioned.
Whites win more because there's 90 whites for every 10 black people competing in those sports (ice skating, swimming, strongman, etc).
These sports have historically been "white sports". There's far more white people doing these sports than blacks, hence the disproportionate number of winners.
This has been my point all along and it's staggering that you still don't get it.
If the talent pool of one race is 10 times the size that of the other, the chances of having a winner amongst the larger group is obviously bigger.
As a possible answer as to "why does this matter:"
My high school's biggest problem, according to the administration, was the achievement gap between whites and blacks. The white students tended to score higher on average on standardized tests than the black students. If it's true that the black students were just on average not as smart, and there were very few factors in the school environment at play, they were being set up for failure. They were being told to compete with white students and then being treated with disappointment when they failed. The school put tons of effort into trying to "fix" the social landscape of the school to cater more to black students. I can imagine that environment would have made me detest school and made me feel like I was the problem the school wanted to fix.
@spot light and what are all these factors, especially when it comes to the parents, influenced by? They are all influenced by how smart people are, in other words their IQ
It matters because the left thinks it doesnt
Relax everyone is getting a trophy !
Ooooooooo ooo
Many Asians have experienced the same living among whites.
So entrancing, to see visual correlation with the vocal fluctuation that is speech. Seeing the distinctive patterns for each individual's unique voice and speech pattern...it's beautiful!! ...I wanna be able to see this way all the time....
I can't understand yout intellectual vocabulary, pls dumb it down for me. Im also black btw
@@moistmikutoy9110 Of youre not.
@@moistmikutoy9110 uneducated psycho. This was 2 years ago so let's hope you either educated yourself or ended up dead.
Conversely some people can be extremely intelligent but not very creative. Knowledge is found on the back of tinkerers.
For example: me
I score about 120 (gifted category) on IQ tests, yet my creativity is infinitesimally small.
In structured and strict schools (schedule and expectations), I thrive. In schools where there is a lack of clear expectations on performance, I fail miserably. Perhaps that is due to motivation issues. However, my least favorite and worst subjects follow the curve of how much creativity is involved.
Creative tinkerers can be very interesting to watch though the results can be rather spectacular in odd and dangerous ways. If you don't get this statement might I direct you too the book "Ignition" by John D. Clark about the early days of the Nasa rocket development. Those guy were brilliant, creative and a bloody menace to everything around them!
@@originalbillyspeed1 I find that the people who are most successful have Multi-variant talent and are extroverts. Smart doesn’t make you money proving that your useful that makes you money, not only useful, but consistent
My brother is successful for these reasons while I am a complete disappointment to myself and those who love me. They don’t tell me that, but truth is usually not explicitly stated, as this podcast reviles.
I don’t know what my point is, but good luck to us. Perhaps google “jobs for people that don’t like people” since you have a 120 IQ you will be capable of most of those jobs. My measly 100 or so can not, so maybe you can use my idea, since I cannot.
True but the unintelligent tinkerers probably accomplish a lot less
Creativity is mostly related to openness to experience
Treat people as individuals. That's my takeaway. Group differences are meaningless.
@@sinatra222 250 years of Europeans uplifting and giving technology, medicine, learning, to the rest of the world, and causing an explosion in the population, life expectancy, literacy, and education levels of the planet, is not oppression.
The world, if anything, owes the west. Big time.
Most of the bell curve was actually not about race, just that one chapter was. I think even Charles forgot that at the end
To make it more about race read Philippe Rushton and his RACE EVOLUTION AND BEHAVIOR
Racist
@@karabomothupi9759
And what's wrong with that?
Being honest should be a value and given credit
It's where the sensationalism lies and so that's where the conversation frequently goes.
@@mickeydrago9401 believing that you’re Superior to someone because of their skin color is nothing to be proud of. Nor is it a good nothing. These conversations always leads to people want to oppress another group. I will not be treated as a second class citizen.
Murray forgot to figure Mr. O's mummer was as wit as snoooo 23:40
Not to mention that Obama isn’t extremely intelligent. He has around an IQ of 130 or so.
Not much you can do about the IQ with which you were born. But values, discipline, and work ethic can take you almost anywhere you want in life. In college, I was surrounded by some really high IQ individuals, but with my work ethic, attitude, and values, I was able to get my engineering degree even if it took me longer. So IQ doesn't always equal fate.
Yes, it does. Respectfully disagree. She works in subtle ways, that Mother Nature.
Point is, it took you longer. So the high iq people beat you and there was nothing you could do about it regardless of your personality, environment, etc. So getting beaten by them was your fate.
What if your IQ was 70...
Would you still be able to reach the same goal ?
Work ethic, values and discipline are genetic too and correlate with IQ.
IQ is a failed concept. Does not measure what it claims and never will.
Four and a half years later and it's still an excellent and eye opening conversation. I've directed people to this and they've had their minds changed in line with the science of human intelligence.
Oh the hell. It is. Any sort of analysis of race and iq taken at this level is a miss leading nonsense. Because it fails to track a delta v. It doesn't take into account changes over time. Any differences genetically shouldn't change in hundreds of years. Drift doesn't happen that quick
@@lordmcdeath01 But the Bell Curve isn't about race. It's about intelligence in humans broadly. The interview Murray did with Harris cleared up the "controversy" around the book.
Murray forgot to figure Mr. O's mummer was as wit as snoooo 23:40
Thank you for this. I am elated that there are people concerned with truth in this world.
And if you care to carry on this conversation further and want to use empirical evidence and put aside the mumbo jumbo social economic bs, go take a look at the Nobel Prize winners,about 954 or so,and tell me what you come up ..outside of peace Nobel winners,tell me what you come up with...
And here's one of my favorite hobbies to do...this is a fun one...Google the top.10 greatest physicists of all time,top 10 chemists of all time,top 10 engineers of all time,top ten composers of all time,top 10 Drs.of all time,top 10 mathematicians of all time ...just for starters. .you' get
When I sometimes went out socializing with people in Mensa, at a bar or something, and other people asked how we knew each other and we told them what our group was, we would always kind of defend ourselves almost automatically by immediately adding that it just meant that we were good at taking tests. I believe it was a group disingenuousness, and we never talked about how we always did that.
I often have the same issue when I go out with friends. People come up to us with their hands on their hips and their brows thoroughly furrowed and exclaim "How do you all know each other?!" We just smile, pat them on the head, and say "You wouldn't get it."
It's ironic because athletes brag about being better than others nonstop
@@realtruth3762 That is absolutely true - I had a very athletically successful stepson who was reasonably intelligent (~110 IQ). He thought very highly of himself and looked down on everyone else who wasn't as fit and capable on the court, in the ring, and at getting women into bed. No humility whatsoever and incapable of gratitude to boot.
I wouldn't refer to it as a 'Group Disingenuousness'.
I think it can more aptly be described as 'behaving like an adult'.
Going around and talking about your alleged 'intelligence' is unbelievably juvenile.
I'm assuming you're rather young. When you grow older, you'll realize that modesty is a wonderful 'core principle' to subscribe to.
It will take you far.
I'm not only referring to 'monetary success'. It's also quite imperative when it comes to maintaining healthy relationships (of all kinds).
How often do you think Einstein bragged about his intelligence?
Strive to be more like Albert Einstein and less like Donald Trump who is so consumed with insecurity that he constantly has to fraudulently tell 'everyone' that he 'knows more about' every conceivable topic in The Universe.
@@cathoderay305
No offense but that's a midwit.
Your son isn't reasonably intelligent, he's just a mediocre in steroids.
This was a superb discussion. It's such a relief to hear adult, sober, dispassionate and intelligent discussion about contentious issues. A+ to both of you.
I've got a simpler test to determine outcomes....simply observe and ask yourself what group of people build BMW,Porsche,Audi,Mercedes Benz and are dominant in proto-type auromotive technology,aviation,space technology,medicine and engineering to name a few tests...hint...they don't come from African countries ....
C’mon guy
You guys can’t run, jump, fight or climb ✊🏿 BLM
Thomas Sowell said something similar... he did fine at Harvard, and he knew a lot of black guys that dropped out. He said, would they have been better off graduating from an above average school? Or dropping out of Harvard and not getting a degree.
I remember the controversy over that regatta question when I was taking the exam way back in the day. I live smack dab in the middle of the country in flat farm country. I'm as far from a country club person as you could possibly be. For some reason I remember getting that question right thru the elimination of the other possible answers. In addition, I had a pretty good vocabulary from liking to read.
Charles Murray is one of very few wo/men who are able to sympathize us for what we go through everyday with virtually EVERYONE "assuming" that my now 6-year old so called "black" daughter doesn't deserve to be where she is at, even though she scored 99 percentile in the both G & T (IQ) tests, getting into Anderson School in NYC and many private schools. Everytime I try to tell them that she does deserve to be at an elite school, a white male or female democrats would insist that she is there because of affirmative action. If your childs IQ score is very high, and have interesting, passionate and caring parents, private schools will compete with other schools to get your child to come to their school. Yes, it's ONLY BECAUSE of my daughter's skin COLOR, EVERYONE assumes she didn't score 99 percentile.
you mean she got 99 on her IQ test. IQ tests dont measure by % . I got 100% if i go by yo rules
I mean the G & T test.
Affirmative action is built on the concept that blacks cannot compete with whites on a level playing field, so the bar must be lowered for them.
Trouble is when you lower the bar for a group, you are basically encouraging them not to try, as well as announcing to everyone else that the members of that group are lesser people.
But you have proof of your daughter's test scores. And to the extent that she is allowed into elite education based on those scores, then the system's working as it should. (Although I would suggest that your parenting is of utmost importance in the equation).
Murray's point was that he sympathize people like us. Even though my so-called "black" daughter and the whole family actually worked very hard (when she was only four years old), because of the prevalence of affirmative action, EVERYONE likes to assume otherwise. However, I believe things will get better as she gets older as she will have many opportunities to prove everyone wrong. I am so tired of bigotry of low expectation by the left. Meritocracy is the only way for blacks to succeed, yet democrats get in the way because they truly believe that black people cannot compete.
This was an awesome conversation with open minds.
Discrimination (affirmative action) is not a way to fight discrimination
It’s one way and a very effective one
Yes, I've been in a class when it was obvious to me that everyone in that class was "much" smarter than "I." I dropped the class, still graduated from grad school, still got a better than average job. I just wasn't ready to learn with than high performance group.
Certain careers require a certain IQ threshold thats just reality
In fact Americans are way too obsessed with IQ Testing.
If People from Ghana can get Degrees in all subjects from Archaelogy to Zoology.
It doesnt mean that Black Africans cannot be excellent,
There has been too much emphasis on Academics in many African Nations.
@@user-mx4sm9cv7e Yeah like Piloting and Medical Work.
@@basilmagnanimous7011 Is it because you are a white American out there.
"We're getting closer to the rods at the core of the reactor" hahahah
Man, that's an analogy that couldn't be any more perfect.
as in nimrods? that's mean but hilarious
It’s a unique analogy but when I thought about it, it didn’t make sense. The rods of a nuclear reactor core are used to diminish the nuclear reaction, not increase it. It would be equivalent to say “we’re getting closer to the brake pads at the wheels of the Ferrari” - Sam should know better and formulate higher quality analogies with that wicked IQ of his.
@@leslielandberg5620 no, it means the closer you get to it, to the truth, the more radioactive it becomes.
People angry at the book probably have not even attempted to read the book. Usually people that can't read 1 page without checking facebook.
@Roy Rogers god finally somebody in this comment section that isnt howling dog whistles lmao
@@ChiefMasterGuru "dog whistles"
It's amazing isn't it, including the right wing trolls.
The book is 1/6ths IQ and race and 1/6ths the fundamentals of IQ.
The other 4/6ths is "Houston we have a problem" Here is what we could/can do.
@Adolf Shekelberg
Not an argument
Why should anyone read a book about science that did not go through scientific peer-review?
To say that race doesn't exist is like saying that words don't exist. Humans have invented these terms to be able to communicate. I work with a woman who doesn't want to use the term "black" or "colored", so she's trying to refer to our costumers by other terms which only complicate things. One time she refered to the only black person out on the patio as "the man with the yellow T-shirt", even though there was three men with yellow-ish T-shirts there... That's just stupid.
@Roobidoobie Considering how many have lost their jobs or have been penalized dearly for simply using that word, she is not at all being stupid. Women are disproportionately treated in that manner as well, though for a variety of reasons. The construct is indeed stupid, but she is powerless to change it and must survive in it.
I find this video intriguing, not so much for the data which is so available, but rather for the bravery it took to discuss this taboo subject in today’s society.
The rest are either gutless or simple liars
Murray forgot to figure Mr. O's mummer was as wit as snoooo 23:40
We see genetic differences in practically every physiological trait of human beings. I'd be profoundly surprised if there were no intellectual differences across ethnic/racial groups
Nothing but respect for Murray...
Why? He just admitted to neither gather his own data nor doing his own analysis. He didn’t even get a working explanation of the scientists who did the work nor can he remember their names.
@@lordmcdeath01he’s an amazing man and brave enough to speak about such a touchy subject (for one particular group at least)
It’s only blacks who care about the results and say they aren’t true….with zero scientific evidence might I add, at least there’s some raw data to back Murray’s stance, the opposition just has feelings, thoughts and words based on emotion about the negative correlation this subject has to black people.
Making sense of,
and putting into words,
the world as I intuitively see it, is
.................GOLD!!
Score gap is higher among rich blacks and whites. Adoption and intervention doesn't reduce the gap.
Can you give the study to that would like to take a glance at it. Thx
The findings in his book are non consequential when considering the individual. However when considering group dynamics and large populations, the findings are quite fascinating and terrifying. For countries that have functioned with a high mean iq for all time and are suddenly forced to accept huge numbers of a population with a lower mean iq, there will certainly be conflict.
chigimonky not really true since race is often the only factor you know about individual.
Also, regression to the mean.
The traits of an individual don't alter themselves to regress to a group mean. That's absurd.
ChrisC we may not know why and how powerful exactly this is, but it is there for sure. I would very much like it not to be, but it is.
Think about 2 parents with extremely high iq, both 160. Do you think their kids would have mean iq 160? Half of them even more?
Or 2 extremely tall parents, do you think their kids will be just as tall on average? Half of them even taller?
Eugenics would be so easy and so powerful if this would be true.
Anyway if you have any literature that says all this is absurd i would like to read it, so please share with us.:)
Do I expect parents to pass their genetically-based traits to their offspring? Yes, of course. This doesn't happen in a reliably predictable way for all offspring but it's exactly how we breed traits into domesticated plants and animals. There are no forces driving a line of people, who have been selected for traits like height or intelligence, toward some *racially-determined* mean.
For example, we may expect the Obama children to be both (on average, and more reliably so if there were more than 2, which is not statistically helpful) more intelligent than average and taller than average, since both are true of both their parents, and for this to continue as long as they procreate with men with the same genetic propensities.
This is a brave venture, honest and thought-provoking!
I disagree. If the point is to treat everybody as individuals then what practical purpose is an IQ test amongst populations?
@@humanOctupus So we can at least attempt to remedy the gaps.
@@humanOctupus If we know there is IQ gap between different groups, we will not blame it on "systemic racism" when certain groups are underrepresented in certain positions.
Only 40 years ago, it was general knowledge. It's still unspoken knowledge in South Africa.
Any lefty reading this, prove me wrong.
@Hassan Eskirjeh you don't see me complaining about nba. How is it fair that they don't need to be diverse?
Charles Murray = Top Man, hero!
After reading and studying this topic - for the first time it makes a lot of sense and explains many other issues - that's from a white man living in Africa for a long time and wondering all this time why the difference. Great work - thank you.
can you explain more , why did you notice by living in Africa as a non African
The reason why some academics were “lying” is bc through envisioning countless negative hypothesis’s accepting this literature as fact could play out in our society.. they figure it is best to treat it as if it doesn’t matter or as pseudoscience as a proactive measure to prevent a major shift in the equilibrium of society, which could have extremely negative consequences
Face it, how many black geniuses can you think of?
I'm not sure what the point of your fallacy is here. All you are doing is showing us that black people are your equals, and some are smarter than you. Was that your intent?
How come no blacks ever were intelligent enough to win a Nobel Prize for physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine? Since 1901 there have been over *600* Nobel prizes given out and not _one black ever_ won one for the above categories. That right there says it all.
The only thing that disappoints me about this is that some of my fellow blacks get offended by this when instead they should be laughing it off, this is merely propaganda, even if it were true we don't care
Until you start getting genocided
There are differences in families as well. I have severe audio discriminating abilities. All my cyblings excelled in spelling, knowing words to songs, and taking language courses. I am the only one fluent in an Asian language now however, because I pushed it to the max.
I have a brother and a sister. My IQ is probably about 50 points higher than my brother and about 20 points higher than my sister.
I'm white. Grew up with a brother and a sister to a single mother making $5/hr in West Virginia in the 80's/early 90's. I made straight F's in the 10th grade and decided to drop out. Got a job at McDonald's then 7/11. Decided to study English Math (algebra/geometry/trig), history and politics for a year on my own. Took the GED. Did well and passed. Took the ACT (Marshall U uses the ACT not SAT). Did well, got in but had to take 2 remedial courses because that was the policy. Took out several student loans and worked full time at a factory. Graduated with a 3.1 GPA (think it would have been better if I wasn't working from 11PM to 7 AM every day). Now working as a private equity accountant in South FL making 90K/yr. Brother is a successful attorney, sister is a stay at home mom. Make of all that what you will.
Well done!
The noise gate on this is killing me....This is the first time in my life that I felt like silence was screaming at me.
lol i think the insane brickwalling doesnt help either
I can't tell you how satisfying it was to hear "shibboleth" being used correctly in a sentence.
Understanding IQ differences is important in understanding relative success of different racial groups as is cultural and behavioural attitudes to education, social behaviour and work ethic.
Only then can we understand the difference, adjust for those factors that can be adjusted and accept those we cannot and adapt education, career options to get the best out of all groups.
Murray completely dodged the question of "why study the link between race and IQ?" that Harris posed to him. He talked a lot after the question was asked, but he said a whole lot of nothing.
In his book he says why, to deny government assistance to low IQ people so they won't have more kids. It's actually pretty dark since earlier in the book he makes it clear he views low IQ people as Black.
@@micahjohnsonboxing6409 Yeah, Murray's views don't add up, and seem heartless to me, and I don't understand why more people listening to these podcasts aren't having this discussion. From the dialogue I've seen on Murray's videos, it seems that most people agree with his policies, and aren't challenging them or engaging in any sort of in depth discussions about them. It's really bizarre and disturbing.
You're not going to stop low IQ people from having kids just by denying them government assistance. All you're going to do is hurt the innocent children.
@@humanormachine2936 no, one must design policy that takes human stupidity into account. So, for a low IQ person who needs welfare, it should be provided. It should stop at one child and be made clear to the recipient they will lose it automatically if they get pregnant. China had a one child policy, it should be that way for welfare recipients or seriously downgraded for a 2nd child.
13:00 Controversial part..."Our 'crime' in the book..." 13:45 "Seems that IQ has to do with both environmental and genetic..."
I disagree with that. It’s the average IQ among the particular population that develop environment.
Could someone please direct me to where I can find how to implement the sort of audio waveform capability used in this video?
This is the most important conversation we can possibly have and yet it is considered beyond the pale.
What’s your iq?
@@jibrilmohamed9422 around 125
The ''group's'' average doesn't say anything about the individual... it's the only important thing to remember. Smart people know this and won't judge a random individual according to his ''group's'' average, but judge him according to his individual capacities. Stupid people can't make that connection, and think other people are just like them, so it's just normal for them to only see the danger of putting races in ''IQ boxes'' and emotionally react to it.
Zofirael Um that's a separate discussion for another day..
Furthermore, if we want to understand why history evolved the way it did and why some groups dominated, race and IQ are a pretty big factor I would say.
Unless the average is low
Are you sure? What about regression to the mean among offspring? Different race regress towards different means, or did i get that wrong?
Tanmoy, the point is that IQ matters, and we should be able to have this conversation with out the reference to behavior. Different behavior demands different treatment. The amount of melanin in your skin is not what affects the behavior; the IQ is a much better indicator.
well the thing is average people dont put two and two together, so that why its dangerous to do these sorts of studies. Nothing inherently wrong with it on its own, just can be used wrongly by evil/stupid people. Not only that who cares? What value do you gain by finding which group has higher average levels of IQ obviously there wont be and equal amount.
The sad part is that it's most likely *the lack of appreciation for intelligence* in certain groups that is preventing the selecting for those genes. If a group values intelligence, intelligent people will be more likely to find a mate and pass down those genes. If they value other traits more, intelligence won't be selected for. It's a vicious circle. Of course, in-breeding, marrying first cousins etc. in some cultures, is not helping, either.
Inbreeding not helping is an understatement.
Over 50% of marriages in some Arab countries between first or 2nd cousins. Been that way for 100s of years.
That's gonna affect mental cognition
@@pfhrmb also it was big in Europe and other countries
@@Officialbarz Nowhere near as widespread
@@Officialbarz "was" yea like in medieval times
Interesting point/question. Would you think that is self-perpetuating at a certain critical level, whereas above that level tends to value intelligence more and to a degree that increases selection for that trait over time, and the opposite occurring below that level? The bell curve disputes that, but that is in toto. Does IQ distribution within separate specified groups look the same?
Is that not entirely unrelated to functioning group studies which show that removal of even a few high (violent type) aggressors in a group completely changes the cohesiveness, functionality and subsequent progression of that entire group? Could that be a factor in providing a supportive environment for valuing and developing intellect?
On a grander scale, considering studies that show that the Mother's level of intelligence has a greater influence on children for both intelligence and intellectual development than the Father's, is the common tendency among males across most groups to value weakness, meekness and/or surface attributes of females over their intelligence a selection factor, and to what degree? A tall friend once lamented his shorter kids, as he so valued being tall (despite some childhood bullying for it). He half-joked that he blamed his rather short wife for it, but did not consider his long held attraction for small "cute" women in the equation.
So hard for some people to admit obviously true facts. Even Murray knew long in advanced it would be a controversial subject.
"Outside of the scientific community, i don't think most people are ready to accept those facts. If i could vote to have the results of the past 40 years of scientific study on the subject of race and IQ hidden from the public, i would. In the wrong hands, it could do a lot of damage and we know how dangerous this road can be. "
Wow.....I am pleasantly surprised and proud of all you/my fellow human beings after reading your comments. No fighting, arguing or name calling of any kind because of this video ❤
lol, most people here who said positive comments are all white. Of course they would love this video
Daniel Freedman showed that babies have different temperaments by race, even at birth.
Here's a better answer to Sam's question "Why does it matter"?
Because we live in a political climate where every group disparity which shines unfavorably on Hispanics or blacks is blamed on racism. Sure, we can counter that with looking at individuals instead of groups - but that is not the way of our culture right now, and that collectivist mindset is being pushed the hardest by the same group who blame all disparities on racism.
If the collectivist "anti-racists" are currently controlling the narrative and pushing collectivism, as WELL as appealing to racial tribalism (which is a very real thing) - how can we possibly win the battle against them using individualism?
We have to be willing to say "Okay, fine - you want to make every thing about groups. Here's what we know about the average of this group and that group - if YOU want to play this collectivist game, know that there's a general rule you're missing."
Which is why Europeans/Americans/Canadians must play the identity politics game. We have no choice--it is being thrust on us. We are individualists at heart, but if we want to save our countries, we need to start acting in a collective mindset as well.
Yes. Agreed
Lmao found the white supremacist
@@humanOctupus That is already as old as anti-semite. It is not going to work much longer.
@yo pierre Have we evolved past basic tribalism? I doubt it. We are not than much differently genetically than we were 10,000 years ago. If diversity was an easy thing to do, we could have done it 10,000 years ago.
We assume that there is a way around our genetics when there is something about our genetics we don't like. That is a bad assumption to make. Maybe our genetics make us very disinclined to want to be an homogeneous people. We are probably all genetically disposed to dislike something about another group as a means of self preservation. Their genes of another group work best for them in their environment and our genes work best for us in our environment. And from a species preservation point of view, it is best to maintain our differences.
35:20 Did Sam really ask _"why seek knowledge in a particular field?"_ Knowledge is always valuable, regardless of topic. I thought this is an obvious fact for any scientist.
It's how people use that knowledge. They can use it for good, or bad.
@@explodingheart2824 That is a downstream problem and one that should not be the concern of the knowledge seeker.
But this is a philosophical issue, so I understand if you value it differently. But I submit to you that it's a lot more difficult to do harm with truth than with falsehood. If you can offer an example that contradicts this premise, I'd be interested to know.
@@allydea should we categorize. And if so how do you fit in people of multi race. Intelligence varies and I guess it's just a bit uncomfortable for me and others. I also believe there is an underlying fear that racism will lead up to something extremely serious and that's why people choose to fight the conversation for better or worse.i too fall under that fear because of my skin even though I may look a certain way dosent mean I fall under that stereotype.
@@allydea working on racial differences may be good maybe we need this in order to fix society. You are probably right we will see and ask more questions when we get there. Hopefully someone doesn't do something bad though because I value human life I'd rather not be categorized as sub human.
@@explodingheart2824 My point was about the pursuit of knowledge in a general sense.
But specifically about the IQ question, if we can study the cosmos, I'm sure we'll be able to rigorously study human intelligence as well.
A better understanding of the races with their similarities and differences will stress the need to respect each other on the basis of our commonly agreed morality, not based on biological equality. All individuals are different. Just like you would expect to be granted the same amount of respect and dignity if you were 4 inches taller or shorter, the same should be expected if you were 2 shades darker or lighter.
The premise that the reason why we should value each other equally as humans is because we are in fact equal is dangerous, because in practice any child can see that humans are not equal. The reason we should value each other equally is because this is how we choose to live in our society.
I've known people of all races. You can name your group and I know some who couldn't outsmart a hammer. On the other hand, some of each group were brilliant.
It is the individual and their desire to advance that makes the difference.
What are the current average IQs & SDs for racial groups in the USA? Do you have a source? Last I heard, there are 1.1 standard deviations between...
Sociological norms have become literal bullying
What we desperately need to do as a civilization is to evaluate all individuals on their merits/abilities regardless of race/gender/age/socio-economic background. Only then can opportunities be offered truly equally. What this information gives all of us is the understanding that there are extreme variances in intellect within each and every racial group -and that fact in itself should be celebrated -liberating us (as it does) from the collective guilt we've been obliged to feel about "unsuccessful" people.
We were required to take the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery when I was in high school (decades ago). I don't know if this practice is still required, but it was a reasonably good indicator of general intelligence.
Politically, I doubt that general intelligence testing would fly in the United States as a federal program.
Teacher's unions would oppose it because it would identify their deficiencies in educating children and their failures in comparison to charter schools and home-schooling.
Politicians would oppose it because they are beholden to said unions and because they prefer an ignorant electorate.
@@cathoderay305 Bingo.
Crap
@@cathoderay305You're missing the point
@@compytv8636 How do you evaluate the potential of an individual without developing a standard for comparison? Not everyone is capable and if you've read "The Bell Curve" objectively you'd realize that (and also note that nutrition can have a significant impact on IQ, quite apart from general health).
Being kidney shy after being shoved in a toilet on the first day of 1st grade made taking any test difficult for me because all I cared bout was getting to go home and pee behind a bush.
Which article is Murray talking about in 20:00? He sais it's one of the most important articles in the flynn effect/iq differences between blacks and whites topic where lead author is Jelte Witcherts....
Pound for pound, I can prove that my family has been physically stronger than most people. I'm also descended from Stone masons and quarrymen. The trade its self weeds out the weak and skews towards the strong. AS these people lived in groups breeding would lead towards physically strong, agile people. That sounds to me like selective breeding.
@erik r East Africans, as in Kenya and Somalia had a very strong selection for fast, long distance running. To get a wife, a young man would need to have a lot of cattle. This was often (possibly usually) done by means of stealing cattle. If you were too slow, you were dead! Dead people don't breed, so only the fast ones were successful.
Humans are one biological race. There are variations, but they do not conform with the socially identifiable races.
@Bart Roberts Murray: there's a genetic difference in IQ between races.
If biological races don't exist in humans, there can't be a genetic difference between them in IQ.
@@smaakjeks label it whatever you want, populations still exist
@@wilmer89 Yeah, humans exist in populations. Good job, William.
does epi-genetics affect mental acuity Sammy ?
Well maybe. You get what you give, perhaps. Quite an idea
If one has an IQ test and it asks:
2,4,8,16 what is the next number? OR It shows a square, a triangle, a circle, a pentagon - which does not belong in this group?
Questions like this are unbiased.
2, 4, 8, and 16 are insufficiently diverse [they're all positive, whole, even numbers]; and, asking which shape 'doesn't *BELONG IN* ' that group is EXCLUSIONARY! Those questions are HATEFUL, DIVISIVE, and TRIGGERING; which is WHY Africans CAN'T ANSWER them "correctly", You Bigot!!!!! 😉😉
You'd need to speak English to understand the question. You'd also need to be able to count in Latin numerals
Similar patterns are observed here in India where we have a 'quota' system to reserve seats for underprivileged 'castes' in government colleges(some of the top ones like IITs and IIMs) and jobs as per their share in population distribution. What happens is that the real poor kids don't make it in these jobs and colleges but middle class and rich kids born in these castes do. In govt jobs they just add to incompetent resource pool that already is there but in these top teir colleges as was mentioned they are set up to fail and end up dropping out and in some unfortunate cases spiral into depression and commit suicide
How come no *B* people ever were intelligent enough to win a Nobel Prize for physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine? Since 1901 there have been over *600* Nobel prizes given out and not one of them ever won one for the above categories. Think about that.
You literally just outed yourself as a black person.
@@NanakiRowan Just curious- have you ever once made an intelligent post anywhere? I would like to read it if you have.
Thomas Sowell agrees fully with Charles Murray re affirmative action in tertiary education.........check out his videos.
You have intellectual discussions like this. Then you have _man, woman, person, camera, tv._
Thanks to Google, I am able to look up the word Regatta. It's a series of boat races.
I almost said it was rice, but that's Risotto.
If you were English you would know that already.
An excellent conversation. Bravo Mr. Murray for having the guts to speak the truth. Eagerly awaiting the June 15, 2021 release of Charles Murray's new book, "Facing Reality: Two Truths About Race in America."
Nigerian American’s and Nigerian British are two of the biggest earners of any ethnic group in those two states.
@@tottenhamhotspurish Could that be because most of the nigerians who are successful in different countries had to be smart as a requirement to even step foot outside of Nigeria?
@@ercolearmani6186 Or it could be because a cognitive test can never give an accurate result when given to a population fundamentally different than the people the test was normed on.
On the face of it Murray must be a retard to frame things and make statements in the way he does. It assumes an insanity as profound as "drag queens are groomers". Why? What is his goal? You surely know and are a cognizant participant in this weaponization of a professional field (basically if you need an analogy for understanding Murray think Jordan Peterson of lobsterfucking fame for psychology). Sam Harris is also a complete clown and Chris Hitchens would surely be shitting all over that dude if he was still alive. Fucking Taliban vanguard troops.
@@jlrinc1420I understand that for black Americans iq is an even better predictor of economic success than for Americans in general.
The only question that matter is what to do with the information?
What types of actions can be justified or overlooked based on that information?
@get set a caste system? I guess you aren’t in the top IQ realm, huh?
There are factors beyond IQ that also affect outcomes. Things like tenacity, ambition, curiosity, fear, greed, etc are also measurably different between different types of people.
For the statement about having a lower IQ average than another race, people with still discriminate more if openly accepted like when many companies wholesale reject an applicant for not having a qualifying degree even if there might be some "gems" overlooked that didn't have on paper qualifications.
If there's enough applicants coming in, then it becomes "too" time consuming to check everyone. There will always be a desire to be more efficient, specially if you're still meeting your objective.
The Bell Curve and Menticide by Joost Merloo are the two books I could not finish out of shear respect for their authors.
I read through the Gulag Archipelago, I Chose Freedom and even the Gospels no problem - and that should tell you something - but those two books were just too much for me.
I used to think my old buddy was crazy because he wouldn't listen to Beethoven's 7th Symphony...
I believe I know where he was coming from now...
It's the IMPLICATIONS of this book that are mind-boggling...
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. Care to elaborate?
Am I correct in saying that IQ is an amalgamation of parameters where abstract reasoning receives the highest weighting? if so i would argue that your IQ is less of an issue in a society with so much available information. My IQ tests for instant puts me at 110 which is in the average range yet I have still become a competent structural engineer based off pure conscientiousness and acquired knowledge, and that's because I use existing knowledge, design codes and reference material. Never ever did I tap into my abstract reasoning to think out an entire bridge design from first principles for instance.
Anesu C
Good point
In my experience as an R&D Chemical Engineer, surprisingly little of the math and theory I learned in graduate school was actually used on the job. Use common sense, work hard, be persistent, ask questions of other more experienced engineers, keep reading and studying.
I would largely agree with you on availability of information, but it's good to keep a lot of that in memory--at least the general principles.
That's the smartest most reasonable observation I've ever seen typed by Negro hands, and presumably from your own original thoughts. It's a fine comment. I do think blacks have (racial based) natural endowments, and your race seems to excell in kinesthetic intuition, where by comparison, many Whites have forgotten grace and cognitive strength.
I listened to this for the first time during the summer of 2017, while I was still going through my mandatory military national service. I remember I was on my bunk bed at the barracks. Very interesting talk.
Khalid AlAli I remember I was ur superior. We were glad when u were done
Nutrition has improved over time, but we still overlook crutial factors that influence in health and mental health including deficiencies in vitamin D3.
When I checked out The Bell Curve from the library I was worried I would offend the black librarian.
Librarians shouldn't get offended by any books in their system that a patron checks out. Not professional.
@JD123483
Why? you are some kind of psychopath?
@JD123483 My IQ is above 130. About 96 out of a hundred blokes on the street is less intelligent than I. If I'd have your mindset, all of them needed to be considered lesser life. Probably you as well. Still feel like oppressing some one for alleged insufficiencies?
@@derherrdirektor9686 Nobody said people should be oppressed because of their low IQ you spoon. Considering how proud you sound of your IQ, it is no wonder why you jumped to that conclusion.
@JD123483 Why?
@23:05 ok, so then you decry the ability to make starting assumptions based on groups of data?
So why gather data and identify patterns, if you can't make inferences?
@27:27 what did I just hear? Did a scientist just ask what was the point of pure research?
That question doesn't make sense. He was talking about groups of people, not groups of data.
Has anyone done a study on if people are able to study for IQ tests and get higher scores? You can certainly study for SAT's and Achievement Tests. The college test preparation was a $4.9 billion dollar industry in 2019. Some private schools also have college test preparation that begins as early as 7th grade. I believe you can "study" for an IQ test and get a higher score. If that is possible are you really measuring IQ or familiarity with the questions, or have you really increased your IQ?
These two should definitely have a round table with Ezra Klein. There are many specifics about this that need to be straightened out.
I'm from Pakistan and I'm race realist. However one race is more intelligent than the other one is just because of shear luck, as a result of coincidentally evolution. However I would like to actively tweak evolution in our favour in my country in ethical ways, curbing rampant inbreeding etc,
A lot of inbreeding in Pakistan, right?
@@Seekthetruth3000 yup
I read a book that argued that the rules in Islam often work against intelligence, but favor ethnocentrism. So cousin marriage means everyone is more closely related, but less intelligent, circumcision is traumatic, but works as an initiation ritual, less education for women makes them more likely to have children, etc. If Pakistan were to jump higher in IQ it would likely go down in ethnocentrism as it is inversely correlated. You’re right that intelligence is from luck in a sense. For most it meant very harsh conditions of Darwinian selection due to cold and food scarcity that eventually selected for intelligence. England had a child mortality rate of over 40% for a time. When they greatly reduced that rate, they conquered the world due to high intelligence and high numbers.
@@Rollpepper agreed
I freekin loved being in a class where the majority of people were smarter than me. It happened like twice in my life and I thought if that had been a norm I would have been so much smarter by now and I would have learned a lot more!! But as someone who specialises in gifted education I have also seen kids absolutely traumatised by swapping a class where they are the best for a class where they are below average!
Robotix there is a Jewish proverb that says it is better to be the tail of a lion than the head of the fox.
It means exactly what you are saying. You gain more from the being the bottom of of the best than you do from being the top of a worst.
Your grammar is very poor.
Adam Ruben. Here we go again by believing one race is superior to another
Robotix that reminded me when i was in highschool. i was messin about with mates, i got sent into another classroom, where the kids weren't the best at math, but they were really trying to learn, (must've been the really kind teacher) and she was helping them understand. i finished up the work easy while they're still getting help. being around people who don't mess about and want to learn is probably all it is. the class i and my friends were in at that particular time was just the kind of class you and your mates were able to do what they want in. there's those type of teachers out there who don't threaten students. you'll get the work, you'll choose to do it. but the class can be loud with everyone messing about, some throwing paper planes doin loopty loops in the air. mastering that architecture. lol anyhoo... fun times.
but yeah, with maturity, i would've loved to have 100% of that and went to a japanese school. lol i've seen the show where young british teenagers are being taught by some asian woman, to go by her standard, and they just seem so disrespectful, when she's just trying to make them into better people. she makes a comment about them messing about, this one chavy girl makes a fuss. it's just embarrassing.
Maybe slightly more intelligent than you. But if they’d all been significantly more intelligent, you’d have likely found it very frustrating.
I agree with other people's recent criticisms of Dave's show. I like Dave and I like that he gives a place for controversial voices, but he doesn't challenge anyone's statements with tough questions. Bill Buckley did it very nicely, with calm wit and pointed questions -- I could see Dave evolving into that. Or perhaps Dave should have on two guests with opposing ideas, and he could be a moderator. But, still keep the intriguing guests with controversial ideas -- I do enjoy that -- whether or not I like them and their ideas.
The greatest difference is between sub-saharan Africans and the rest. This makes perfect sense as they're the least closely related to all other groups. Why would anyone think they would co-evolve in such a drastically different environment.