The Economics of the Dance of the Dragons
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 лис 2024
- In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, The Witcher and more.
For merch, audiobooks, and all things In Deep Geek, explore my website - www.indeepgeek.com
Join me on Patreon - / indeepgeek
Follow me on Twitter - @indeepgeek
Follow me on Instagram - indeepgeekofficial
Follow me on Facebook - / indeepgeek
For more merch - shop.spreadshi...
Or ... shop.spreadshi...
The Winds of Winter playlist - • Video
Robert's Rebellion / Tower of Joy playlist - • Video
My audiobook channel: The Well Told Tale - / thewelltoldtale
This video was brought to you with support from my amazing Patreon community - special thanks to Stephanie Frederick, Joshua Clark, Maura Lee, Rabbi Rob Thomas, Brooke Geer Person, Josh Bielemeier, Jane, Vance, Amy Southerland, Callie Summers, Giles Raymond, June Coates, Ariel Winchester, Sonia Rangel, Edward Ryan, Stephanie B, Coleen, Ben Androvich, Nana L, Brennan Barnes, Ivanka Hainzl, Howland’s Little Sister, Charis Messalina de Valence, Donna Daley, Cade Norman, Murray D, Lily Mellon, NOscar, Rick Hoppe, Leathery Wings, James Pisano, Bridget Boyle, TheStarkInWinterfell, Ellemcee, Alannah Prestayn of Braavos, Raymond Joy, Jonathan Harrison, Jared, Petyr Pebble, Hilal Yildiz, Jason Mauleon Rosario, Milton Christopher Appling, Edward Ennett, Katy Smith, 26Artgirl, Karen Thomas, Rickon, Cathrine Furseth, James Fitzpatrick, Doug Hughes, lawnduck20, Perseffanie, Emily Mole, Lady Dane, The Late Escapist, Natalie Donald, J. Gregory Henderson, Andrew Warnock, whalawitsa, Luna Cascade, Dan MacKay, Lady of Summer, Johnny Targs, Glen Thrasher, Milla, Ashton DeAngrlo, Kevin Warner, TomCritoph, Julie Bernard, Demps 2002, St Jamalamington, Bear, Carolina Kley, Susan Lonergan, Bo Riley, Brad Paquin, Lyle Hammac, Taryn Giles, Alex Butter, Pam Peterson, Bettina Charlotte Nielsen, T boz, Angela Marie Young, Sarah Awesomesauce, James Horner, Stephanie Erickson, KaliKo_Jack, SeaGreenMango, GeorgeRRTolkien, Antihero Association, Richard Woodard, Jenny Smith, Caiden Timmons, Britt, ThatVBGuy, Tyler Barnhart, Daiwai, John H. Austin, Jr, Epamethius, Marluinthir, NikFromNJ, Ty Farnsworth, Beesman, Mario Murray, EJ, Willow Button, Julia Kendall, Jonny Ceriani, Mary Frances Angelini, Nevermind, Emma Sheiman, Matthew Foley, Candide, Joseph Jones, Miss Shake'A'Fist, maniel le, MyTeaFam, Christine Denny, Abi, Nicholas Willey, Julien Dubois, Leland, JackieO, Max Kingdom, Tricia Brady, Julian Messner, Lahiru Dinálankára, LiK, Simen Dalstein, Betty Morgan (Nemo-Nova), Scott Maraldo, Shelley J, Wildling Chef, April Cote and Karen Wennerlind.
Affiliate Links - (buying books from our Bookshop.org shop supports this channel and local bookshops at no extra cost to you.)
Books for fans of A Song of Ice and Fire:
uk.bookshop.or...
Other books we love:
uk.bookshop.or...
Thanks for watching! (All pictures are used under fair use copyright laws. If any credits are missing or incorrect, please PM me for a credit!)
I always found Cregan Stark fascinating in this. He comes across as sick and tired of the whole mess, scolds everyone, and then gets the f' out. It's like a parent dealing with squabbling adult children. He could have made a power play that would have changed the political landscape of Westeros for decades, if not centuries. Instead, he simple opted for putting the pieces back where they were before. That tradition of Stark disinterest in southern politics would continue for the most part until it was Ned's undoing.
I mean he did want to carry the war to castely rock, highgarden and storms end and remove those houses - chopping off a load of heads and going home was his consolation prize
Not ned, his father Rickard Stark. Rickard Stark decided to pledge to a southern coalition of houses intent on subverting Targaryen supremacy. Every tragedy that happened to the Starks happened due to his actions.
@@benhayfield6182 he gave an oath to Jace and supposedly became good friends. Being killed in battle is expected, but maybe hearing how Aegon the younger saw Rhaenyra's execution and was being held by an exhausted force would still pose a danger to the prince. But, every Northerner expected to die in war, if they survived the march, they would've hade crazy morale.. Expecting to still gain a shred of personal honor in battle being robbed by poison would disgust and make him rash. Still while like this he listens to the boy king Aegon, pardoning Corly's, offering the black to knights, and holding those responsible like perkin the flea, who propped up his squire as king, accountable.
@@benhayfield6182
Well, he would've led to more pointless deaths had he removed those houses tbh, the conflict would've lingered for even longer.
Uhhh not really. He was on the edge of war the entire time. Ready to cut everyone's head off. It was the Lady Blackwood that convinced him to end the war by taking her hand in marriage.
Rhaenyra literally lost King's Landing, the dragons and her crown because of it!!!
It's crazy how George is able to disrupt a fantasy world with such a mundane thing.
Not crazy - really good world building!
It's almost like the real world, where enormous land invasions can fail miserably due to mundane things like badly organized logistics and outdated faulty war material due to corruption ;)
@@aw2740 yea GRRM writes fiction with an impressive degree of realism. I like how he took the aspect of dragons seriously, and made them basically nukes with wings and free will. It therefore made sense that they went extinct, because humans always try to hunt dangerous animals to extinction. The obly thing I think is unrealistic, is that the world doesn't evolve. Traditions stick around longer than they do in our world and the technology does not significantly evolve. The first war we see is faught woth swords, and wartime is normally a time when technological development is sped up. Hundreds of years pass and they still fight with swords. But thta isn't really crititism towards the novels, GRRM is an amazong writer, but it is the only thing I think is not like it is in the real world
@@corneliahanimann2173 I mean, people throughout history used primarily swords and other similar weapons for at least six thousand years before the modern era started about five hundred years ago.
the maesters have got the advancement of culture and technology on cycle, things do progress, just not in westeros. bravos has production line shipbuilding! that’s very modern
Taking into account stuff like this is the main reason why I value the works of GRRM so much.
100%
Same
Yep, speaking of well-done economics in a fantasy world is very intriguing.
the more HotD unravels the more I root for Euron to sack the Hightowers. XD
they remind me of Tracey Ulman's skit when she plays a russian troll manager and she rewards one troll with employee of the month because he caused Brexit, and she tell him "congratulations, you made everyone loose".
The Economics never stop being interesting.
What I love about the Dance - is its semi-realistic portrayal of "peace". As noted, technically speaking the Blacks win the war, under very strenuous circumstances and somehow under the Greens' terms.
Other way, the Greens win the war but the Blacks bloodline continues, though you could argue the war wasn’t over between Aegon II’s assassination and the hour of the Wolf
I agree with Roronoa's assessment considering the inheritance law didn't change to cognatic succession.
The Valyrian aspect to the monarchy of the iron throne was effectively destroyed by this war.
The greens for all intents and purposes won even if their main faction in kings landing were all wiped out
The blacks won. By the time aegon II was poisoned, all his armies were dead, all his commanders were dead, all his dragons were dead etc. At that point it was just a question of how, not if, his reign would come to an end. If it weren't for larys and corlys, kings landing would have been retaken by the blacks and its garrison put to the sword.
@@theliato3809 what are you even talking about? The greens weren't trying to abolish the valyrianness of the targaryen dynasty lol. Aegon ii married his sister and rode a dragon, you don't get more valyrian than that.
one of the most astounding events of the Dance was the sacking of Spice town and Hightide. It logistically, physically, rationally and all sorts of otherlys impossible to sack both at the same time in one day. Especially with Dragonstone literally a couple of hours flight from there, a raven for aid could be sent, bunker up for three days and reinforcements arrive. But no, Martin gave them the same treatment as Rhaenys and her dragon. "I just wanted them gone"
The Ole R.R. Dragon nerfing never gets old.
Actually, it wouldn't have changed anything. Even if the dragons had not been busy with the battle, they could not have saved Spicetown. The men of the Triarchy were in the city, so it would have been necessary to burn it to defend it. On the other hand, what is more surprising is that the Greens did not use the attack on Rook's Rest as a decoy to lure Meleys to the continent and take the opportunity to attack the Velaryon Fleet with their dragons. Rhaenyra would likely never have dared to intervene on Syrax, or would have been killed trying to defend the ships, and Rhaenys would have returned only to contemplate the disaster and face two dragons. The Blacks would have been permanently destroyed.
House Velayrion and House high tower were commercial rivals not just political, Otto really wanted the situation in the stepstones to beggar Corlys
Either way the Hightowers wanted to war to happen.
Good point. Pity this was not made obvious in the tv show.
@@ythelldoineedahandle it was every time someone asked for intervention in stepstones, Otto showed up to shoot ot down
I wouldn't really say Hightower won, as this represents the end of the Hightower renaissance & their ambition.
Following the conquest, Hightower had a sort of renaissance as the big player in the Reach. Their long time ruler, house Gardener was erased. The former steward house Tyrels were not yet respected in the Reach. And the Redwynes were not yet the trade juggernauts they'd become.
Hightower was the prominent Reach house, and they wished to extend their influence to become as respected as the former kings. However, after their attempt failed, they took on a much more conservative approach. Focusing on maintaining their city and wealth. Their semi neutrality kept them in power the coming centuries, but at the cost of influence. Like their maesters, Hightower were kingmakers still, but never kings themselves.
And they don’t have to be kings. That is the point. Its better to be the power behind the king than the king himself.
You can even look at this renaissance in terms of the Faith if the Seven. The Hightowers exerted undue influence over elections during that period, for example.
“What was the cause of the Targaryen Civil War?”
“Actually, there were numerous causes. Apart from the dynastic split within rival branches of the royal family itself, there were also many economic factors, both local and international, which played a significant- “
“ - Hey: just say the personal split between Rhaenyra and Alicent”
"My name is Otto and I love to get blotto" 😅
Thank you, Comment again! 😌
Such a simple move that caused the downfall of one side, what Tyland did was nothing short of brilliant... And to think he even took the punishment to ensure his side won.
Him, Otto, and Larys (kinda) were the real MVPs of team Green
great video, i love grrm saying that he wrote ASOIAF as a response to the ending of LOTR with the question " what was the tax rate in aragorns new kingdom"
Great vid as always , IDG. Many overlook the economic aspects of this conflict and its influence over parts of it as well. Especially the treasury gold being split up , sent away and a considerable amount spent. As Robert aptly put it , it turned the taking of KL for the Blacks from a victory to a poisoned chalice. That lack of gold hamstrung Rhaenyra's ability to do much of anything once she took KL. Resulting in having to enact draconian taxes on the very poor who were already greatly suffering from the DotD. That was a big start of turning the tide and was a massive hit her reputation / public perception of her. Very much a "what could have been"" if there were funds / the treasury was in place if Rhaenyra could have been an effective ruler & administrator the masses may have actually gotten behind. Especially not having to resort to harsh extremes vastly unpopular measures. Sadly for RT we will never know how that may have went or what it could have changed for her arc / trajectory.
Great job as always with this vid IDG.
It would very much make sense to say the Hightowers "won" the Dance of the Dragons economically... especially if what Marwyn the Mage says is true and the Dance was in actuality a plot orchestrated by the Citadel (based out of Oldtown and *very* closely tied to House Hightower) to wipe out the dragons from the world by turning them against each other
I find that unlikely, as they had the King with their blood.
@@Innomenatus Trust me, there's plenty of evidence for it. F&B was very clearly written as a biased history book.
This theory has point they wanted aegon on the throne beacause he is kings firstborn son and they didn't want rhanyra beacause is a woman plus have bastards as heirs
I'm not sure how this isn't more widely known/acknowledged. Looking at the full picture that George has given us it's a 95% chance that the maesters, and the faith too most likely, are absolutely behind the war. Way too many clues at this point to deny it, even if you completely ignore Marwin saying so in the last book of ASOIAF. It perfectly lines up and it's classic George to trick the audience into thinking one way, only for them to find out what was obvious from the clues that they ignored to begin with
Who literally went to war with the Targaryens under Maegor and Aenys?? Oldtown
@@Innomenatus gotta think 3d chess here man
Your conclusion lends credence to the theory the maesters orchestrated the downfall of the Targaryens intentionally.
I aspire to this level of geek. Thank you Robert.
I wonder if Littlefinger read about the Dance and gleaned his chaos-ladder theory from the Hightowers
"Chaos is a tower"
It's funny that I thought so little of this aspect of the Dance but it's still all the more fascinating when I think about it now. George's world never fails to suprise lol! Excellent video, Geek! :)
If you tell a man that he has a new master. He will simply nod. If you tell him that his new master demands 70% of his income. He will go get his pitchfork.
"The common people pray for rain, health, and a summer that never ends. They don’t care what games the high lords play.” Ser Jorah Mormont (show)
Excellent video. Stories that include practical economic effects are always much much better than those that float on vagueness. It's like stories which neglect to address how people manage to acquire enough food to stay alive.
Ok, it's so funny that your comment had one of those "read more..." things to click on and that it hid the final sentence, because I was already thinking about food when you mentioned practical economic effects. Reading your comment had the same feeling as if you had finished my sentence in conversation 😊
Well not really. If you look at the geography of Song of Fire and Ice you can clearly see there really only one Kingdom that very rich that's the "River Lands". That why King's Landing is almost a choke point for all the grain coming out of the River Lands.
@@Levacque Thank you for your comment!
That IS funny that the comment I wrote was displayed that way...with the "read more" containing your thought.
It is nice when people write pleasant and entertaining things.
The way Robert say Corlys sounds as if he is saying coolest.
Coolest Velaryrion. Which he was. Francis Drake in silver hair.
Thank god. this is what I needed to know for my fan fiction. But you failed to go over the best crab boy family and how they obviously got 100.223x richer after the dance.
I feel bad for the Celtigars 🥲
Fanfic name???
Something tells me the crab heraldry is an allusion to the family feeding on dregs (via being the perennial tax man) or picking over the dead scraps of greater houses.
My only question is: how was Rhaenyra supposed to raise enough money to fund her side of the war without raising taxes? While I agree that the taxes were probably too extreme, what other methods could she have used to fill up the treasury?
at that point probably nothing. I have not read the books but I would think maybe not limping into Kings Landing, financially speaking, thinking that the realm which you knew to be economically devastated would be a fountain of wealth would have been wiser. Not taking King's Landing until the liability wrought by the loss of Velarion coffers was reconciled by enacting other strategies. For example, raid the Iron Fleet, seek outside investors, attack Oldstown or basically raid lands in general. Obviously, GRRM probably wrote in good reasons why they felt compelled to go after KL at that point as he is good at that. However, it seems that the enticement of the Iron Throne was too much for The Blacks and the Greens made them suffer for it. However, the rebuilding of KL would have been bet done during peacetime and slowly not rushed and painfully at that
Maybe she could have secured some loans from the North and Vale, or possibly from Pentos, as Daemon had a lot of friends there.
I just love house hightower and oldtown's lore.
They might even be of valyrian blood!
I love how just one off hand commit about kings and the divine ruler has spawned so much conversation.
North had an advantage. Although in Southern politics North, Vale had little role before the Dance. But after their strength regained and all Southern lords had the idea that if a civil war broke out against targaryns the North and Vale will come. So after the Dance the targaryn dynasty lasted for 150 years after the mad king did the stupidity. Return of Old Gods made the faith less power. North men rebuild the Riverlands.
Economics and the dance of the dragons!? I'm nerding out🥴
This was a really fun story told by the most soothing voice. Thank you.
Oh I love when you cover topics like this
House Hightower's history shows they're very intelligent with how they go about the ownership of the Hightower itself as well as Oldtown. Instead of the Targaryen "let's Conquer and Burn everything", the Hightowers were more willing to accept and somewhat integrate over the years with major shifts, or choose sensible, reasonable diplomacy above all. So the idea that they just kinda waited for a minute and consolidated the money and resources they had after the Dance makes a lot of sense.
House Hightower's history is honestly very BASED. Both times they married into House Targaryen, I'd argue it was the House of the Dragon that screwed up and made the situation worse. Aegon came with compromise and reason, so they were like "sweet, yeah man we got you". Then Maegor disrespected and mistreated his Hightower wife, and Viserys too had neglected to be as good a husband, or father to his kids with Alicent. An honest alliance with House Hightower was something Aegon was able to procure, but his descendants just didn't see the goldmine right in front of them.
King's Landing may be the capital, but Oldtown is arguably THE best City in all of Westeros. Much rather live there, tbh.
Let's hope it survives Euron's fleet in the books (I haven't read the books myself but I've studied up quite a bit, and apparently, the Greyjoy Kraken seems to be swimming it's way to the Hightower and Oldtown as we speak. Let's hope they continue to "stand tall", and "light the way" in the coming future.
Agreed. The Targaryens always thought themselves above regular men because of their dragons. The Hightowers kind of put that idea to rest.
One of the key lessons of warfare intertwined with this is that having to fight a war on your own soil is *always* a bad proposition (all the more so when dragons are involved). While many houses lost substantial manpower in the fighting, by far the biggest losers were those in the areas where the majority of the fighting took place: the Crownlands, Riverlands, and the northern part of the Reach. For example, House Tully would have suffered hugely from the war, even though they themselves didn't join the fighting until very late, since a huge portion of the fighting and general devastation occurred within their vassal lands. The huge economic losses to the Lannisters and Velaryons were both due to enemies striking at their core economic assets. The houses that maintained their status or even gained (Hightowers, Arryns, Starks, Baratheons, etc.) were the ones who never had any fighting occur within their core territories.
Gotta love how George counts House Grimm of the Shield Isles among Rhaenyra's supporters, but not ONCE does Dalton Greyjoy try to take advantage of this to raid up the Mander and into Green territory
Most of the Reach was neutral no point in pissing them off.
Northern Reach was either on Rhaenyra’s side or neutral
@@lordnorj The Rose Road follows the same general course as the Mander; raiding up stream allows them to harry the Hightower forces as they march on King's Landing, inflicting losses before they come into contact with those Reach houses favourable to Rhaenyra further North, namely the Rowans, Caswells and Merryweathers. Then there's the fact that we know Dalton was preparing for conflict years prior, but never once tried to raid the Hightowers or Redwynes.
@@thedragondemands5186 I'll repost what I've said already: The Rose Road follows the same general course as the Mander; raiding up stream allows them to harry the Hightower forces as they march on King's Landing, inflicting losses before they come into contact with those Reach houses favourable to Rhaenyra further North, namely the Rowans, Caswells and Merryweathers.
Then there's the fact that we know Dalton was preparing for conflict years prior, but never once tried to raid the Hightowers or Redwynes.
@@theduxabides9274 the Greyjoys were going for the low hanging fruit
If you don't have more videos planned on the economics of fictional worlds (or things in them), can you make those - they're interesting to look at, especially since that aspect of fiction isn't one I've seen addressed a lot.
In Deep!!!
Another great video from the best UA-camr
I hope you read this Robert, I have an unrelated but (I think) an important question.
The Stark Kids, you mentioned in another video that a warg is rather rare, even among people with blood of the first men, and the fact that the at least 3 of the Stark kids (Bran, Arya and Rickon) have warging abilities is an extremely rare case (aside from their cousin, Jon). Which in my opinion indicates the gene pool they came from must have been very fertile magically. Which in turn means, like Blood Raven, it must've come from both their parents.
While we know Eddard's Stark blood is quite magical, what do we know about Catelyn's heritage, again according to their skillset, Cat's blood must have been very magical indeed.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Big Fan
Ah, economics, love it!
Robert, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read some Brandon Sanderson! Then make high quality content about the Cosmere like you do with ASOIAF and LOTR. Love your videos. Cheers!
How did the greens get the royal treasury out? Overland to Casterly rock and possibly old Town, how did they get a quarter of the crowns wealth to the Iron Bank?
Will be interesting to see
I assume they did it very early in the war. Within the first few days and weeks of taking power (before the fighting would have even started). Long before the naval blockade by House Velaryon would have taken effect.
Remember, the Greens were ready for war as soon as they locked down Kings Landing. But the Blacks didn't start fighting until after Aemond killed Jace. Until that moment, Blacks were still hoping for a diplomatic solution.
It was a part of Otto’s plan for when Viserys died. He knew he had to act against Rhaenyra immediately. Again with Rhaenyra being on Dragonstone instead of in the capital, all those funds went poof.
Fantasy economics!!!! Love it. Now I want moreeeeeere.
At least we know what was Rhaenyra's tax policy.
I'm more interested in the building techniques. Was rewatching the series, got to the first bridge standoff between Otto and daimien, watcher her dragon land on that little bridge. Not one stone cracked under the weight. It's been bugging me for days. Was that small little bridge built with a dragon landing on it in mind?
Yes. Yes it was. This is Dragonstone, built with specialized dragon labor in the last century of Valerian empire.
The question that follows this conclusion though is how House Hightower became so unimportant (relatively) in the next 150 years?
They’re still incredibly rich and important, they’re just biding their time by not getting involved in the War of the Five Kings. I imagine they will become a central player in Winds/Dream.
Bruh they're the real winners, they're just understated. The built the Bank of Oldtown after the Dance (the only Westerosi bank we know off), Oldtown still seem do be doing good and they managed to worm their way back into King's Landing.
What was Aegon's tax policy?
Did Lannisters have right to mint new coins and in doing so devalue the currency?
Which Aegon? I think Aegon III went back to doing what Jaehaerys did: taxing luxury goods like silk, spices and jewellery
Let's see Paul Allen's tax policy.
What was Aegon's theft policy?
@@HOTD108_ what color would his card be?
I dunno if this UA-cam trend of economics of fantasy world videos got sublimated but lately I’ve been having fun creating different economy’s for different societies in dnd campaigns
Fascinating video, Robert. Well done as always.
In the main series its hugely important as well
I like how the taxes Rhaenyra puts in place actually target the wealthy specifically
Is there going to be a full autopsy on the Rings of Power? You said, you enjoyed it and I'd really like to know why.
Economically House Hightower benefited but politically it they didn't, it actually led to the rise of House Tyrell in the Reach.
nah house tyrell grew after blackfyre rebellions
I would say that House Hightower is probably one these richest houses in land.
Techically you can argue the tyrells by extension and the reach, high towers lords and home region, won out as well. Yes I’m aware the reach took a pounding, but the hightowers at the end of the day, push to shove, do answer to the tyrells and a key part of their power of economics, culture and boots on the ground.
I have no doubt the tyrells and reach houses get some good rates at the bank, secretly better than other regions.
You would think Kings Landing would have bounced back and the treasury would have filled once the blockade was lifted
As for the hightowers being the ones that lost the least on the economic side. That's true but the price was very high in the long term.
They lost everyone's trust after the dance and although they maintained their power through the cididel they where never trusted again to sit on the council or marry into the Royal family. It closed those doors forever. Leaving them open for the Lannisters to prosper in the future.
In breeding became a lot more common among the Targayans after the dance of dragons. The hightowers might have tempererily become richer but the iron bank of Bravos maintained its relationship with the iron throne, and the Lannisters became more trusted than the hightowers by the Targayans.
War is destructive, Roberts Rebellion was bloody and brutal. Even Tywins rise to power was bloody and brutsl. But, The war the hightowers started, didn't just risk lives, it risked destroying Westeros itself. The Dragons could have burned the entire of Westeros to the ground had the war not ended, every man woman and child with it. That is the difference between the war that Tywin and Robert started and the one the Hightowers started. Tywin and Robert only wanted to destroy the things in their way. The Hightowers not only wanted to destroy The things in their way, they wanted to control the dragons.
Tywin was smart in that respect, he knew you don't control a dragon, but you can earn their respect. Which is why he turned on Aerys he got butt hurt that his efferts wherent rewarded. So he switched sides when he saw which way the wind was blowing. Hoping that would earn Roberts trust and respect so he could get what he wanted most, power for his family. The sad part is had he not let his insacurities rule him he'd have realised he had already turned on Aerys by not joining in to defend him, had he instead accepted that and joined the rebellion he'd have achieved what he wanted, respect and power through Robert, and he would have maintained it like the Starks maintained theirs in the North.
The hightowers where stupid enough to think they could bully and control a dragon and the war they caused almost burnt Westeros to the ground. As a result they lost everything but their wealth. And people ended up only interacting with them when they had buisness with the citadel.
I find surprising no other king has attempted to improve and expand the road systems of Westeros created under the rule of Jaehaerys I.
Jaehaerys was the only King who actually traveled around his Kingdom for inspections on his famous "royal progresses." As such, only he saw the dire state in which it was and sought to improve it the best he can.
All the other kings before and after him, simply lounged in King's Landing revelling in their own filth.
What are the white walkers tax policy?
well, thank you for the heads up on spoilers this time
I wouldn't really look to much into house hightower. I think of it as a Tolkien eucatastrophic way of trying to grapple something good out of a bad situation. They were already filthy stinkin rich before the war not sure what more wealth entails.
great video robert thanks for sharing
Weak men create hard times.
As soon as you started I thought "Gold wins wars"--Tywin/Cersei Lannister.
Sadly I can only watch the first 5 minutes, because I only heard the dance of the dragons years ago and don't want to be spoiled😉
This content is brilliant.
Amazing video!
It's also worth noting that the Hightowers also won in attaining dragon's blood. Yes, the descendants of Allicent all died out, but only a few years after the war, another Hightower married another Targaryen.
Garmund Hightower married Rheana Targaryen, the Last Dragonrider, and had six children with her, who may be in the Hightower line today. They did not win the throne, but they won the dragon blood.
Also, if you switch to an equal inheritance lineage, the crown could go through Rheanys, through Laena, and through Rhaena into whatever descendents she may have had, and if the eldest child of each generation thereafter is a male, and this is either the same line as the current Hightowers, or at least feeds into it, then that would make Leyton Hightower the true king.
Lastly, if you believe in the Maester's Conspiracy, and also believe that they're aligned with the Faith and with the Hightowers given they are all based in Oldtown, then they also won in the sense that they were able to kill off the dragons and significantly weaken the Targaryen dynasty.
Chaos is a ladder -House hightower
Thnx
When the greens took the treasury they doomed Rhaenyra. You can’t win a war or effectively rule without money. Rhaenyra was literally brought to her knees.
Another feather in Daemon's cap for attacking first and immediately.
Except it was the Greens who got first blood. (Killed Jace, son of the Blacks leader)
Wasnt it lucerys
@@daddy_1453nah Lucaerys got first blood by taking Aemond’s eye.
@6:05 The Greens and the Blacks both courted the support of the Iron Islands, but where Otto Hightower offered Dalton Greyjoy wealth and power if he would sail the Iron Fleet all the way around the southern end of the Westerosi continent to attack Dragonstone, Driftmark, and the blockade sealing-off the gullet, Corlys Velaryon and Daemon Targaryen asked them to attack the Green territory in the Westerlands and the Reach, the latter of which was nominally ruled by House Tyrell, but the Hightowers had been "overmighty bannermen" to the Tyrells for decades, and the fact that Lord Tyrell was a toddler at the time meant that the Reach was de facto controlled by the Hightowers.
Dalton Greyjoy was nothing more and nothing less than a rabid beast foaming at the mouth for bloodshed, but he still had cunning. Faced with these options, the choice was easy. The Westerlands were not only the closest territory to his own- and thousands of miles closer than the targets the Greens wanted him to attack- they were far more populous, meaning that not only was there significant material plunder to be had, but many young maidens and strong young men for the Ironmen to take as salt wives and thralls, respectively. Which they did with great gusto, along with plundering significant wealth from Lannisport (Casterly Rock proving impervious to their raiding, as it always had.)
series had the kind of economics where Ser Criston can casually un-alive, on two different occasions a nobleman and a noble councilman and live without repercussion, while spymaster would have his payment from royal house in his fetish.
Because he’s a kingsguard with backing of the queen, and Beesbury was a traitor and falsely accused the queen of regicide
another great vid
Funnily enough the real world inspiration for the dance of the dragons actually ended very civilly and not with pretty much everyone dying.
In fact I would argue that the dance of the dragons is kind of unlikely to happen in the first place, because both sides have lots of dragons I think it would have affectively acted as a deterrent the same way mutually assured destruction does currently between great powers with nuclear weapons.
Perhaps. But nukes are faster and more deadly than Dragons. Therefore, the deterrent potential for Dragons is weaker.
Plus, not all Dragons are equal. Some were as small as a carriage. And others as tall as Castles. Just having "dragons" alone wouldn't deter war breaking out. And having Dragons was meaningless without having enough dragon riders. Sure your side may have 50 dragons. But you only have like 7 targaryens who can use them. Meaning you only have 7 Dragons, and that means your closer on parity of forces with your enemy. Furthermore, communication+surveillance in Westeros was slower than modern day. As a result, High Lords would be very tempted to launch suprise dragon attacks on a fortress or army, as it would take days before the enemy is even notified of the massacre... never mind a counter move being made by the enemy. But with nukes, all sides know the attack will instantly be detected and instantly responded with an equal or greater attack. There's no suprises so no temptation. An effect deferent that Dragons aren't.
And finally, Dragons can and have been shot down and killed. The technology for that existed even 300 years ago when the Dornish singlehandedly killed 1 of Aegon's 3 dragons and stopped his invasion. And by this point, Westerosi Lords will have learned from history to not repeat their ansestors mistakes from Aegons era when dealing with Dragons. The creatures just aren't as new and frightening. Besides, your side has them as well so your matched in power. But nukes? They travel faster than sound. Much much harder to shoot down.
I wouldn’t say that his rule was the high peak of Targaryen rulership I would say it was Targaryen‘s highest peak as a figurehead as well as Targaryen least influential InIn their history.
Well, there is a difference between being a figurehead and being a wise king who allows his subjects to live freely. You can't run a relatively free market economy if you still behave like a micromanaging feudal lord, those things don't work together. By only keeping on investing into basic infrastructure after his grandfather did so for decades, he did more as a king for the people than pretty much anyone else. He inherited a rich, but still fragile system on it's way to become a great kingdom and he managed to make it a strong and great kingdom. Did he delegate his duties onto others? Yes. But that's how management works. He followed exactly in the path his predecessor wanted.
@@petrmaly9087 his grandfather was a wise king. All he did was continue why his grandfather did while compliant with everything I never thought of anything he was the equivalent of the toothless lion he was more focused on pleasing other than ruling and people like to sugarcoat that to me something more than what it was
@@petrmaly9087 you overlooking the biggest point which is he’s the main catalyst for the war that destroyed his grandfathers work all because he delegated to the wrong people without the influence of the Hightower & Lannister the civil war would have likely never had happen, in the scale that it did
@@youngoutlaw5150 He very wisely appointed people in positions os power to assure the realm and especially the lowborn people would prosper, he kept better diplomatic relations with Dorne and the free cities than anyone before him and he very clearly declared his successor. After his death he was betrayed by his in-laws
@@petrmaly9087 I wouldn’t say wisely, Some yes others out of personal relations
I took AP macroeconomics and couldn’t care less about it. I see this video, instantly intrigued…. Why must I be so??
Otto has built the perfect alliance against the Black's with the wealth and resources of Oldtown Casterly Rock and Lannisport and another powerful lord in Lord Strong the guys are set on paper.
War, among other things, always wrecks the economy for poor people.
can i watch this video or does it have book spoilers
Interesting the prominence of House Hightower in the Dance of Dragons and the fact that at least economically they ‘won’ the war make it very weird and interesting that they play such a low key minor role in the Song of Ice and Fire books. It makes me a bit suspicious. Or I could just not be remembering things right, I’m not a expert on the series by any means.
They're definitely up to some shit. Some say that maybe the Hightower itself is a giant glass candle LOL.
The Tyrels rise sorta restrained Hightower. During the Dance the Tyrels rule the Reach in name alone, but given several more centuries, they rise to become house Gardener 2.0.
The Dance was Hightower's last chance to become the most prominent Reach house, and not just the most important vassal of another.
Because historically house Hightower has been very peaceful and inwardly focused, they just went back to that after the war
Does anyone know if he’s done any of the books (or even chapters) as an audiobook? Dude’s voice just *is* Westeros for me at this point lol
She could have won if she had kept the lords and ladies who turned alive. She should have just charged them huge fees and take some lands for their treachery, but leave them with their lives. That way, her coffers would be full, her people untouched, and she didn’t create a bunch of enemies with houses that could have easily been allies. If only she had followed in Jaharyses footsteps
House hightower won by economics
I always hated the fact that the Starks never tried to become rich. The North should’ve focused on ranching, shipbuilding and eventually banking. The Starks could’ve set up a permanent commerce/military fleet with annual trips to the East Qarth and Asshai trading goods or providing escort for other ships for a fee. They could’ve conquered the Stepstones and use its location to send its ppl there during the winter and collect tax revenues. They could’ve bought the disputed lands from the Triarchy or taken it in conquest and done the same. They could’ve brought in peaceful wildlings and welcomed escaped slaves increasing the population and potential tax revenue. Could’ve started the largest wine/ale breweries and took over the market using the Wall as a storehouse for a fee to the NW. Could’ve used profits to build not glass greenhouses but paper/wood greenhouses for a fraction of the cost and grow medicine and spices during the spring and grain during the winter. Finally they could’ve built the Ice Bank which never would’ve competed with Braavos or the other banks of the Free City but would’ve been bigger than any other outside of them and only one in Westeros. So many missed opportunities.
The Starks are in poor land. There are three Kingdoms that suffer from bad geography one is the Starks up north, Lanisters in Western lands, and Jon Arryn in the Vale. It is 12 times more expensive and the people of those land have a hard time making any money.
Nothing says fantasy like taxation.
Nothing quite like looking down on feudalism as you're paying 57% income tax.
@@geoDB. wait, you pay taxes?
*Sniggers in tax evasion*
God I love your fucking voice, I FUCKING LOVE IT!
That taxing the poor hits really close to home, I live in pakistan, the country has almost defaulted, the price of everything has quadrupled, on the IMF's demand a billion dollars worth of tax is being planned to be implemented on the public in the upcoming mini budget but the rich politicians & their family & friends have recently order brand new bullet proof luxury vehicles for their "safety" .
Would have been wiser to do what the Romans did and just proscribe all the rich people in the city. Fewer people to feed, a lot more money for you, and the poor will love you for it.
It's astounding how much power the Targs managed to lose, all because of one weak king (I liked Viserys but he was weak) and a nasty schemer (Otto, that literal scumbag).
Not really, you have to be careful Targaryen wealth realizes on trade. Technically the richest and most powerful Kingdom is always the Riverlands and one the poorest is the Lannister believe it or not.
I D G !!!!!
Never understood how Corlys Valaryon sailed to Quarth…….. famously in the middle of a desert.
Qarth isn't in a desert look at a map
Dragons for all
There is nothing more pornographic to me than the economics of grand fictional settings.
Follow the money and who wants control…I see a lot of Hightower in US politics.
House Hightower gained money, but lost PEOPLE, family members. That’s less important than money??
It depends on your perspective, really. The Houses are medieval feudal houses/families. They very likely won't hold the values and morals that we do today.
Thank you for the spoiler warning
Somehow this ended up in the playlist for 'Politics & Economics of Middle Earth'. Doesn't belong there.
I wonder, couldnt the Stark, Manderly and Arryn have sent money to the Blacks ? After all they were loyal crown´subjects that still needed to pay taxes to the Iron Throne and Rhaenyra was their ruler.
So on top of bleeding manpower fighting for Rhaenyra, they have to pay her for that "privilege"? Lol!
@@princepscivitatis4083 No one is talking about `privileges´, its about fulfilling their duties and promises.
Didnt they also arrive late to the war?
@@MiguelLopez-yc2rh
The Lords aren't beholden to bankroll a Targaryen civil war and it's surprising they chose to arrive at all.
those dang targaryens never figure out to just spare the people of king's landing and burn the red keep itself. then you start a public works program rebuilding the thing you just blew up for jobs - bingo bango!
Yep the rogue prince won
I wouldn’t say the high towers won since the dance led to constant conflicts which would come back to bite them
I'd like to think that they somehow did, in the long run. The Targaryens were weakened after they lost their dragons and now down to 2 or 3 members. The war greatly affected the Velaryons that they're pretty much a very insignificant house.
Everybody here is a nerd… me too Ijs 😂
wtf u mean only his children survived? like did he birth them or something???
Damon you mean? Rhyneara (sp?) had a child or children with Damon. The 2 were married in Season 1 of HotD. It is these child(ren) who survive and become the ruler(s) Westeros.
He's the father