I would extend the having-few-hit-points thing to characters that become slaves or get thrown out of their guild or church. Most players seem to retire characters who suffer such fates and roll up new ones. No! That's when a character really starts to get interesting! You used to be a powerful paladin, but now your church shuns you and you are the slave of a foreign prince? What a great start to a story!
I'm now just imagining a campaign where a paladin gets to be super powerful, then slips up, gets enslaved and breaks their vows loosing all their powers. Now they dedicate themselves to a dark patron to get out of slavery and work their way up to be a powerful warlock before they fail to stop some heroes from defeating their patron, removing all their powers. The cult they formed revolts and throws them to the curb. Now they dedicate themselves to becoming a fighter because every time they start to get good at some borrowed power it gets snatched away from them.
11. Leave room for humor, kindness and heroism, without them there won't be any contrast, thus no grimdark. If the game becomes too daaaaaaaark the players just won't take it seriously.
This very much, there's a reason the term Grimderp exists, it's when things go waaaaaay too far into Grimdark and it ends up being hilariously absurd so the players will just laugh at it or stop taking the game seriously and start doing stupid stuff because it's "why does it matter anyway?" sort of effect..
@@Dragonmoon98 well when everything is horrible and terrible you just... adapt to it and laugh about it. It happened to me once and since i understand when you go overboard with something in dnd it becomes a joke
This reminds me of the setting in "The Witcher" novels. Monsters are rare and when you encounter them, they are pretty terrible. So rare, that a lot of people don't even believe in them
I wouldn't say monsters are a rarity in that series per se, but they are no where near as plentiful as when the Conjunction of the Spheres first happened, which was well over a 1000+ years prior to Geralt's story. So many of them have been culled since then tho. Tbh I find mankind, in general, to be the biggest threat in that series.
Because then you have to play your character like you care what happens to them. A sewer crawl goes from being a sewer level in a video game to "Ew, I'm not going into the filthy sewers! I could get sick!" Then watch the PCs go for a bath before presenting themselves to their quest giving lord so they don't get a beat down from guards because presenting themselves to a lord when they smell like feces is a disgrace and an offense. A punitive lord might lock them up in the stocks in the middle of town and have the guards dump buckets of cold water on them until the stink comes off. Also, if PCs take ANY damage in a filthy ass place like the sewers, make them roll a check or a save against disease at least once.
I don't play "grimdark" and I have always played my characters as if death was just around the corner. Some character scoffed at death, some feared it with a pathological level of carefulness, but they have done so because that was who I wrote/played them to be.
@@MonkeyJedi99 You are the exception, not the rule. A lot of players run their characters like they're in an MMO (no real concern for story; get quest > do quest > turn in quest > get rewards. rinse & repeat) and then become anything from frustrated to fuming when they dont get to essentially respawn. IMO, the majority play their characters like your average MMO player (prefer not to die, but if it happens "meh") runs their toon (because their is no connect between the idea of them as a player and playing a person in a virtual world) , and the remaining portions of the player base are either people like you Monkey, or straight out " *Leeroy Jenkins!* ". A sizable % of players essentially Leroy Jenkins their characters, because they never assume the role of a virtual person that really wants to survive.
One thing I've found is that substituting magic equipment with unique equipment is a wonderful way to humanize a Grimdark setting. For example, in a session I ran some years ago, the PCs had encountered a self-stylized, "King of the Forest," who, in actuality, had stumbled upon the already-ravaged caravan of the kingdom's prince. He had found the sword regalia of the Kingdom abandoned at the scene, and upon taking it for himself, used it to conjure a story of his supposed might and rallied other bandits and brigands to lead them. Totally non-magic, but the PCs were stoked once they had claimed the weapon for themselves, and had become attached to it knowing that eventually they might have to return it. Totally non-magic, but just possessing it elevated their status and made it feel more powerful than any run-of-the-mill +#/+# magic weapon.
a fun experience with grimdark is when the players beat it. When they manage the happy ending, when they defeat the ancient evil, when they refuse to give in to the horrible world, it feels good
With regards to the torture: I recommend coming up with ominous sounding names for torture techniques or devices that don't exist in the real world. That way you fuel the players' imagination without it being too graphic.
@@magyar9479 Eeesh just looking at the name 'Spider Legs' as a torture device makes me wonder "is it like Eight pronged rack with hooks in it that they dig in to you or is it a more 'pit and the pendulm' type device where you're strapped to the table and this eight bladed legs slowly curl in on you like a dying spider as the torturer works a rickety, screeching crank?" The other way is to make it sound innocent but have it spoken of in quiet whispers. I mean just look at the barbed whips which used upon ships as flogging tools, their nicknames SOUND innocuous like "Cat o'nine tails" or "The Captain's Daughter" but in reality they could strip the flesh off of you with each swing.
One idea I had would be to say that the PCs wake up in the cell and hear screaming far off down the hall. That would be the extent of it and then I move on to what the players do.
@@magyar9479 or even just go with something that sounds like it comes from a horror film; The Nail Splitter, Flesh-Stitching, Skinbugs... or, if your players have seen the Saw films... use any of the devices there.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 The only issue I have with the 1HP character is that he'll die from any singular thing. While you did well to seed some story with him, what would seperate him from a 1HP commoner NPC named deathflag? If there's no way to get back up, with a random scratch from a cat being able to put Lucky down barely a minute into an adventure? This assumes he doesn't have great armor, which from his debted background doesn't seem likely. It seems less a serious grimdark, and more a ludacris grimdark, where the darkness is so dark and edgy that it's funny, thus breaking the mood one would want out of a grim game. I'm not saying PCs should have 99 HP at level 1, but I think the idea that low HP makes a character more enjoyable is a bit silly. By that logic, people can't have fun playing martial characters, because they'll usually have more HP than the pure spell casters.
@@1ULTRAKNIGHT 100% agree with this. At Level 1 a characters HP isnt the issue making a game Grim Dark and rolling HP at lvl 1 and getting a 1-3 hp character doesn't make you some cool edgy grim dark character it makes you a character that gets killed by accidently stepping on a nail. That's not fun or creative.
This is exactly the type of game that my table uses as well. 'Grimdark', 'old school', 'realistic campaign', pretty much the best way to play (imho). Love the video!!
When I start to run a game at the shop, I have all players do the following .. a.) Add 10 temporary points to each ability score for fatigue damage. b.) roll for 40 temporary stress/ fatigue hit points with their chose of dice rolls of, ..2d20, 5d8, 10d4, 4d12, or 7d6. c.) All limb hit damage equals to skill check penalty with that limb, multiple hits to a given limb stack. d.) Any time you fail a strength check against being kicked or shoved, you must make a Dex check to keep from falling " prone." e.) Many year veteran with a group of people who fought with foam weapons. Flat of the blade hits to the arm can cause numbness in hand grip, and I seen all kinds of slip & falls. f.) PC makes str/con endurance checks when wrestling a dog/ werewolf or a guy with a knife to your throat. Once your arm strength is gone, dog eats your face. g.) My larp group one time made mock ponies out of saw horses to roll joust with. They can be pushed or worked with your own legs, seen people get onto them too quickly and sild off onto the ground " hard." h.) I have seen too many people over the years just walk into walls/ door frames, trip on the toe of their own shoes and other dumb azz fall downs leaving that person with hand or foot numbness. My brother works as a roofer, and even I have seen people " just " lose their hammer in mid swing. i.) Once the PC take a few hard falls and seen the monsters also do so. They became very wary of what is around them in game. j.) DM being a D*ck, " your PC wake up in the Inn room and find all their gear is gone." As for myself, " Your PC wake up in the night to find a large rat chewing a hole in your boot on the ground, let the rat hunt/ fight begin. " k.) How many times you seen a person at a Dollar Store go to pull a push open door ? There has been many times I go to unlock my door and twist the door nob only to be moving to fast, ending up walking into my door. Which cause me to bust my knuckles, losing my grip on the keys and dropping them in the dark. Rogue, " I drop my lock pick ! Quick someone pick it up !" Fighter, " Dude, we are in the dark with no light, I have mail gloves on, also with the PC flaw card of far-sightness. So I'm not finding anything. " DM , " you hear voices from the other side of the door and people are coming up behind it. They are complaining that that door always .. sticks.."
The "old school" version of this was literally just a stack of character sheets that you didn't care about. "Oops, Zippo Pipes got crushed by the juggernaut. Should I bring in Pepsi Can or Desk Chair guys?" - hardly "grimdark."
One element of WFRP I really enjoy - you rarely start out as an OP 'hero' In fact, you generally start out as weak and vulnerable. Reward without risk tastes of ashes...
Just trying out playing and finished WFRP campaign. Really like their Wounds system that's not goes overboard like several games HP, really talks how experienced they are, they can still die easily. Supported by Armor system that really states money says a lot but we often started as poor.
@@EzraeL91 Oh? Yeah their starting stuff pretty rich lol. But I guess it's got in thematic of starting life each person is different. I know the system isn't perfect. Some Career got things that not in synch or so... 😂
@@archer3813 Well, it would if there wasn't the starting career of the Squire, and since every knight begins their life as a squire I see no reason to accept that op career as first one.
I took your advice with the "One hitpoint guy"! I made a character a bit ago, an old fellow named Gregory. Gregory had 4 hit points, awful stats, and was terribly in debt to the wrong people. He had a bad season of crops and had to borrow money from the city; he couldn't pay them back, so he borrowed money from the mob before the city could foreclose his debts. By campaign start, he'd already missed two payments. They were very clear that they would go after his family if he missed the next. The party adopted him before the first scene of the first session ended. He survived, got enough money to pay off the mob AND the city, and "retired" from adventuring after just a couple of missions.
A smart man. retire when youre ahead. He could be an old acquaintance in later adventures you could call on when youre on your own vendetta with the mob.. sometimes just keeping 'extras' and redshirts alive is a challenge in itself
I kept running into this Lindybeige character in the comments and was like "why is everyone listening to this bird ?" I finally looked him up and watched 5 of his videos back to back. What a great channel - he is no bird, he is a draco-phoenix.
Fair warning about grimdark campaigns: I call them depression quests for a reason. They're not for everyone. Additionally, some people like to ban laughter to maintain mood with these. Just don't. Laughter and jokes act as your party's tension releases. It's imperative to be able to still scare and worry even through their laughter.
Totally agree. Seth Skorkowsky made a video about running horror games. He also says there is no horror without relief, and talks about the movie The Thing as an example.
Thanks for the tips. I am starting a new campaign where I am taking the Forgotten Realms, dumping all the official canon (yes even Drizzt), and taking it back to the original 1E grey box with 2E rules. I am doing a high fantasy grimdark setting. Magic is failing, the nations are collapsing, and the Realms have become far more dangerous a place to live. Imagine if Robert Howard had colaborated with Ed Greenwood in creating the Realms. Good times.
Ah grimdark, where even the cutest of things is extremely dangerous and outright deadly. For example, a creature I recently brainstormed with couple of other DMs, the Prismatic Jellyfish. A basketball sized, air bound jellyfish glowing with a swirl rainbow hues, and just as deadly, if not more so given the cramped spaces of a dungeon. Give it light themed abilities/spells and a nasty toxin with paralyzing effect. Not exactly tough but something the players really don’t want to touch. Haven’t really worked out the stats yet. Up the grimdark by introducing it with a paralyzed goblin caught in its tendrils. The hapless creature twitching as it is slowly raised to the Prismatic Jellyfish’s opening to be devoured.
I don't necessarily have an interest in going full Grimdark, but I love getting to think about this kinda stuff. It's really fun, and adding just a few of these could probably give you a nice dark fantasy game without the full-blown grimdark. Also, I love the candor in that opening xD
I played a wood elf rouge named Yinceran Vaneiros with 3 HP in my friend's campaign dubbed "The Rollercoaster of Death." Within the opening moments of the game, our ship was ambushed by pirates who tore our ship asunder. Yinceran was knocked unconscious by a falling cannon when he tried to abandon the ship. Fortunately, another member of the party grabbed Yinceran before he succumbed to the depths. He ended up being transformed into an abomination by Nurgle (my DM borrowed elements from WH). The adrenaline rush from every dice roll being potentially lethal made it quite exciting to run such a weak character. I recommend people try it at least once!
To be fair, all it takes to make Candyland Grim Dark is, connect it to the Hansel and Gretel story, and let the kids come up with their own lore from there.
I'm building a houserule right now for my gritty, low/dark fantasy setting. I didn't like how the normal hp system means that a character is either totally fine at 1 hp or on the brink of death at 0 and making death saves. I wanted to both give characters more agency as they're fighting for their lives and integrate it with a system for lasting (but not necessarily permanent) wounds. The wound table itself is still in progress, but this is what I'm using so far. 2) Lethal Wounds a. Characters do not become unconscious at 0 hp. Instead, they must choose between taking an action or using their movement on their turn. b. Characters doe not make death saves at the start of their turn. Instead, when they would take damage while at 0 hp, they instead mark off one death save and take a temporary "mortal wound". Roll on the "Mortal Wounds" table. c. In addition to the other effects of a critical hit, the blow bypasses hp to inflict an immediate mortal wound without first reducing the character to 0 hp. A critical hit against a creature with 0 hp inflicts this wound in addition to the default wound for damaging them at 0 hp. d. When a character takes takes their 3rd mortal wound/fills their 3rd death save box, they are now at "Death's Door" and are unconscious and dying. The character makes a standard (original) death saving throw at the start of each turn. If they pass, they linger another turn. If they fail, they are now fully dead. If a character returns from "Death's Door", one of their temporary "mortal wounds" becomes permanent. e. Lesser restoration can remove a temporary mortal wound. Only greater restoration and higher magics may remove a permanent mortal wound. In some ways, this makes it harder for characters to die, but it also leaves more room for serious consequences between winning and death. This game also uses the grim and gritty rest rules variant from the DMG, so receiving even a temporary wound will be a significant hindrance for some time.
@@LPFariy I like the idea, but that's precisely why I wouldn't do it. Especially against many attackers, having PCs roll against every attack would just become tiresome. I'm more likely to turn saving throws into static defenses than the opposite.
Way too complex. Easiest solution to make things get serious in a hurry is to have critical hits cause bleeders. First crit causes a -1HP/round bleeder. You need to take a full *UNINTERRUPTED* round bandaging or a 1st level cure wounds spell to get it to stop, and _any_ damage in the next 5 minutes ruins the bandaging and reopens the wound. Try again! Any additional crits all cause a -2HP/round bleeder. Same as the above, but a 2nd level cure wounds spell must be used to stop it. Same as above on further damage. A 3rd level cure wounds spell or a drink (half a potion) from a _greater_ healing potion will stop all bleeders of any severity. A healing potion is the same as a 1st level cure wounds spell. That's it! Bleeders can be a major crisis for players all by itself and can turn any severe hit into a lethal blow if unattended. It also gives major use to the players who make use of medical training... Stitches and scars, poultices and herbs to look for.
Reply so I can find this post later. My mind is on a similar wavelength. I really like the idea of heroes at 0 HP being too wounded to continue fighting, not outright unconscious and healing allowing them to be healthy enough to survive, but not be that useful in a fight. 'Critically Wounded' PCs (0 HP) can then use their turn to crawl half their movement or take an action at disadvantage, not both.
As a member of The Holy Church of Algorithmos, I must advise against slaying the beast. Were it not for him, all the realms would be naught but heavily spectated miners and crafters. He has fallen on dark times, but he is a necessary force of ordered chaos. He can be redeemed to bring balance to this, the land of... tubes er smth, idk
Love this. I have wanted to run a campaign where all the PC's start as street rats and have to work for everything. Also playing warhammer 4e which helps the setting a lot.
Trying out DCC changed my perception about TTRPGs. Being an OP super hero is a fun power fantasy, but I've learned that when I'm playing games, I like for there to be stakes.
I'll say I absolutely adore your campaign playlist. I'll watch it every once in a while because it gives me a lot of inspiration for my own campaign. I wish you kept doing those videos because they are by far my favourite dnd capmaign updates. If you ever give us a second "3 npc's your campaign needs" I'll be fulfilled in life
Role playing at it's finest! The concept that your beloved PC may get terminated by The Fates severing the skein of their life is what creates tension and maximum drama in the setting. My favorite RPG is Call of Cthulhu for that reason.
1st/2nd edition did have one thing that made higher level adventuring more dangerous, which was to stop giving characters additional hit dice for hit points after a certain point (usually level 9). When characters start only getting a couple if hit points each level while their opponents keep getting full dice and new and more painful ways to hurt the players, it can get deadly quick, especially if the DM doesn't hold back with the monsters abilities.
Ho! Professor !! All you are saying here is so true. I've been playing the game for 30 years now. I started with the basic edition. The « real D&D », where players started with 1D6 HP (1D4 for mage!) and life as an adventurer was awefully difficult. Now, with 5e Hasbro has made it a family game, where no one is dying and where every one get a medal at the end.... It is OK for certain peoples, but not for me, I love the harshness of the early game and the anxiety that it provoques !!! I love the THAC0 and the fact that there was no saving throw against death... Thanxx Pr DM for promoting this kinda game in 2021. I love you !
I run Moldvay Basic this way. Character fragility and the low power curve makes every combat a white knuckle event. They frequently avoid combat if they can, at third level they were nearly taken out by tiny evil fey using javelins with paralytic poison.
lol, yeah, that's one way to make your fellow players hate you. Make a weak, unhelpful character who even in death haunts the group. You can tell PDM has spent too much time as a DM, because even as a PC his first thought is how to screw over the party.
@@taragnor Have you thought about the idea that people have fun differently and some people would rather have unhelpful, but interesting member than very effective but boring minmaxer?
@@taragnor and what PDM said at 7:21. While players could be imaginative with roleplay or cunning in their plans, it stinks to be a burden on the party. Especially in regards to dungeon delving sessions, ambushes, or even social activities where your rolls are crucial.
Found this channel about 2 weeks ago, which is perfect because I just started DMing. Love the content. I’m just happy to be commenting on a new video! I’m gonna listen to this as I drive for work. I am sure the content will be A+ as always. I love your approach to videos and DMing. Thanks for the advice.
Very good video, solid advice. A tip for DMs out there who wants to try a world like this, but not inventive enough to make up an entire world (or just too lazy, like me). Use R.E Howards' Conan/Hyperborea as a basis. Some of his work is very dark (I think it's mostly the stuff from when he was corresponding with Lovecraft). Most "monsters" are either devolved humans, a large/mutated animal or a single, summoned horror from beyond. Much more scary than some random orcs. Ohh, and don't play in a "rulesy" system like Pathfinder (or worse). Someone is gonna munchkin a half-halfling-half-giant wrestler with +49 to grappling who can outstrangle a kraken - not very grimdark.
PhDM, this was one of the best refreshers for grimdark GMing I've seen. I really appreciated the "skip the unacceptable stuff." I'm not a softie, but I too agree I skip the torture scenes. After a while, players in interrogations, go right to I START CUTTING FINGERS OFF. I don't let them roleplay those scenes anymore. I have two choices: Interrogation and Enhanced Interrogation. If you go to step 2, you can assume that you have permanently physically (or mentally) maimed the victim--AND BETTER YET, YOU GAIN PERMANENT CORRUPTION TOO! KEY NOTE HERE: The Player must CHOOSE and _know the consequences of their action.(corruption, increased insanity, bad luck, whatever) This was adopted in the ALIEN rpg (killing an innocent/defenseless) and as we play WFRP and other similar games, this mechanic is already built in. In DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, I would simply rule one of the following: 1) The DM gets several free inspiration points, 2) The character permanently loses x.p. (yes, even if Evil, 3) Character gains Disadvantage to any roll the DM chooses for d4 future checks (the Gods don't like you).
Great suggestions! I'm really glad you put the bit in at the end about not crossing certain lines. A lot of people hear grim-dark and assume it has to be the worst of the worst imaginable content all the time always. But even in the good literature that does make use of those extreme things, The point is not the violence or what have you - it's about creating a world that feels real, and just a little bit cruel. Just like real life...
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Nice! So this video is a model for how to be a good lazy DM - use someone else's stuff, then give them credit! That's how approximately 70% of my campaign gets written lol.
This is great, and all sound advice... though having run grim/dark games for a long time as well, I have a few thoughts of my own. 6) I agree with not having inflated HP pools, but having only 1 or 2 hit points can be overly binary. At 1 hit point, you exist forever in either the functional or the dead state. Your farmer can't fall off a horse, be hit with a club, or get stabbed with a dagger without dropping like a brick. To me, that ends up feeling more like laser tag, where one touch and you're out. There's no sense of being 'hurt'. You're either hale, or on the ground dead. I prefer when PC's have few enough hit points that a single hit can kill them, but enough hit points that they can survive one, maybe two hits. Even the weediest character can get hit in the foot, and I like having that nuance available, both mechanically and narratively. 8) Definitely agree with travel being dangerous, but I've found this one very easy to overdo. If players are getting ambushed by bandits every time they go for drinks, travel becomes unfeasible. If it's too dangerous for adventurers to travel between towns, it's going to be near-suicidal for the average person. This opens up issues of how economies and trade exist in the world, and how these monsters/bandits feed in such an environment. Caravans are great, but if twelve Level 1 Guards can't stop a wyvern attack, those wyverns shouldn't be a 10% chance on your random encounter table. You cannot have a surplus of predators in any ecosystem for any but the briefest time period. Too many bandits, and trade stops. When trade stops, the bandits will disappear as they have nobody to rob. If caravans become commonplace, bandits also disappear as robbery becomes too difficult and only the very best can actually survive plying their trade. The Golden Age of Piracy is a great time period to reference, in my opinion, to find that balance. Travel is just safe and feasible enough to be worth it without needing to equip every caravan like an armada, but dangerous enough never to leave port without the feeling that this time you might get unlucky and never return... 10) Obviously going overboard is entirely group-dependent, and you addressed that very well. My only input is that lines create safety, and if you can ever 'cross that line' (obviously not to the point of actually upsetting anyone), the results can be very memorable. For example, I find graphic depictions of torture cringe most of the time, and agree with you that the players can imagine better. However, just once I called the priest character's bluff and asked him to describe how exactly he made the recurring baddie "repent". For the first time, he had to inhabit his 'heartless zealot' role more honestly than just throwing out cool quotes from Warhammer. The characters were horrified at what justice and revenge actually looked like, and it made killing the main villain as much an act of horror and shame as it was one of exultation and victory (tying in to your points #1 and #9). The firebrand had a crisis of faith facing what he had done to a single (perhaps deserving) villain. That's not something he had faced in a campaign's worth of torturing and killing enemies 'off screen'. It also startled the players a little bit, because they were invested in the moment and it felt 'real', almost as if the act had really happened. Some were a little shaken for the rest of the night, but all of them look back on it as a very memorable and poignant moment. Obviously this is playing with fire, so your mileage may vary. I know my group very well, so I know what I can and can't do. Never take the risk if you think it will ruin someone's night, but I do think part of what makes a narrative 'dark' is the consensual defilement of taboos and the pushing of boundaries. For example, most would never accept violence against children in their games, even as spectators. Yet how many of those same players enjoyed Game of Thrones, where they burn children alive, hang them, execute them, bury them under rubble, push them off towers, and stab them in the womb. Examining and confronting those little hypocrisies can lead to very memorable places with the right group and the right story.
Some great points made here all around. I find dangerous travel can often really hurt the verisimilitude of a setting, because DMs tend to get ridiculous with it. Bandits should be waiting for easy targets. Most DMs seem to always have these (often poorly equipped) bandits be eager to try to take on the heavily armed group of adventurers, which makes no sense. I think to set a grimdark tone it's better to have PCs run into a social encounter with friendly bandits. Then they learn later that the sociable fellows they shared a camp with yesterday were responsible for the brutal massacre of a defenseless family they find down the road. Also, as far as animals go, they shouldn't be too dangerous (or aggressive) that village hunters couldn't earn a living. If you've got a 1/20 chance of being mauled by a dire bear every day you're outside the village, then all the village hunters / woodcutters / trappers are going to be dead. Unless the area is completely devoid of civilization, designers should avoid going too crazy on wilderness encounters.
@@taragnor Man... that encounter idea about a friendly group of "fellow adventurers" is awesome. Chilling around the campfire, swapping stories and techniques, only to find the next day that they are not adventurers, but actually rapacious brigands who've just burned and pillaged a nearby village. Bonus points if the party cleric saved one's life from an infected wound, discovered later to have been inflicted by the rusty pitchfork of a desperate, elderly farmer. I love it. I find that the travel issue is most egregious in Pathfinder/D&D. The experience system requires a set number of encounters in order to progress, which means that random or "random" encounters play a big role in the overall flow of the game. Especially in their pre-published stuff. Since players need to face level-appropriate challenges, by the time they're mid-level, the wilderness has become an absolute deathtrap. Just trying to cross some hilly plains they'll get hit by land sharks, rocs, a dragon, probably some wyverns, a band of ogre raiders and a dire bear... meanwhile the story will hand-wave this away by putting a wooden palisade around all the nearby encampments, or giving them a militia of eight Level 2 Warriors. Sometimes that just feels lazy, and I've had many players joke about how caravan guards can do their job off-screen, but the second they accompany the PC's they're rolling on 18's to hit and dying in one or two blows.
I was playing a Westmarch game and decided to go in I notoriously dangerous dungeon with my under leveled wizard who I dumped my 6 into his constitution. He had 4 hp and was lvl 1 for a level 4 dungeon. Had a ton of fun playing overly cautious and almost making it out. He died when right at the of the dungeon I let my guard down doing a routine trap check and had a gelatinous cube land on me.
Watching this the night after my 1st-4th Edition (90's) Gamma World/Star Frontiers mash-up campaign. Nearly all of the party died, the party leader ended up with his left hand lopped off by a critical fumble with a vibrosword. Rolling out in the open. It was a good session with glorious, tense bloody scenes and the players loved it or so they said.
I'm starting a new campaign this Friday and told my players that in this world, every person, no matter race, dies at age of 70 (if not before, as usual). I like this in particular because is really hard to think that an 300 y.o. elf would be interested in the meaningless problems of a bunch of lvl 1 humans and halflings. And, set the tone of inevitable death and the mystery of why that happens.
Grimdark can be a great spice to the D&D stew, but you can overdo it, too. As a player, I always want to feel like I can affect change in the game world, even if it's hard.
It's kind of why I stopped playing d&d well and the whole covid thing my enemies had no weight everything felt really simplified and easy you were like almost immortal
Comments for the comment god! I've been wanting to inject more grimdark into my game (5e, frist time players but playing for about a year now). I have struggled with how to do this mid-campaign, however. But much of this seems like it can be gradually applied as we go. So look out players, here comes the grimdark.
I'm willing to give up adding Constitution to my hitpoints, but I insist that the rule apply to enemies as well. Makes being cautious and tactical all the more rewarding if the enemies are made of tissue paper too.
This reminds me of my pathfinder character who had a wisdom of 6. His mind was irreversibly shattered by the Shadow Court of Nadal. He carried a mithril candlestick and talked to it thinking it was a conduit to a higher being which was actually the part of his mind that was shattered and imprinted onto the candlestick. The bugger was the luckiest character ever and often through sheer stupid luck saved the day despite being comic relief and surprisingly the most sensible character of the group. That was until phantasmal killer killed him and his luck ran out at level 10.
The setting Warhammer Fantasy RPG is actually really good for this way of handling monsters, the official line (and the line of the majority of the people of) the Empire (the largest human nation in the "Old World" is that the ratfolk known as Skaven are either just horribly mutated Beastmen of Chaos or a myth, the fact that the Empire had an Emperor known by the name "Mandred Skavenslayer" is just seen as "people we so gullible back then...", the things that the average human admits exists and what they filter out is quite staggering in the Empire. More grimdark settings are actually really fun as along with the darker tones, morally grey NPCs and shorter and rougher lives, there is a lot of room for dark humor, strange ideas and you will have a blast coming up with things people treat as truth, but in truth is just superstition...
Currently there’s a tv show on Netflix called Thieves in the Wood. Very Grimdark. If you haven’t seen it and love the Professors game I really think you’ll love it.
Thanks for the recommendation! I’m going to have to check this out. As an aside, and not inherently fantasy related-but I feel the need to plug this everywhere ‘cos I love it so much: Barkskins on Hulu is incredible.
Awesome tips!!! Morally grey npcs, tough moral decisions, and humanoid npcs are HUGE in my game. The only tip that I throw out the window is the whole keep magic rare and players not too strong. Magic is relatively common, but it’s power varies WIDELY in my game, which adds back some of the mystery. And when my players hit 15th level or so they are fighting homebrew gods usually so the insane fantasy powers make sense. The stakes usually are some kind of world threatening situation (like the White Walkers in GoT) so it makes sense to need great powers. But the stakes are kept high since they could always die, be betrayed, or pick the more evil of the difficult choices.
Excellent as usual. Loved seeing some of these greatest hits re-visited. I definitely need to go back and raid some of the older videos for my scenarios.
Yes! Yes to all of this! Another thing I do is start below level one. No class, just background (maaaaaybe one feature if I'm feeling it will help with personality) and a background using a commoners stats, you can redistribute two points. My last grimdark game was set in an alternative victorian age like a ye olde shadowrun (so guns were a thing) and no heroic healing, if you are dropped below 0 then your going to need the doc. Also prevented healing magic. Really had to think in this campaign and my players were great!
It’s great to hear a summary of your setting and game play. I’m already using a lot of your concepts in my own game. My current campaign is something between grim dark and Tolkien.
Oh my... this is definitely old school. I’m just getting back into DND after 30 years away. Back in my day I was a paladin stripped of an arm and then my alignment, making him a useless fighter who soon died at the hands of a group of ghouls. To this day that memory stuck with me. Grim can be good.
I'm a huge fan of the manga goblin slayer ( and love the Skarsnik novel), my imagination when it comes to the torture they inflict is vivid to say the least.
Damn this video goes all in, well done. Some of those decisions are hardcore and definitely not for every campaign but I want to try it that way at some point
I've always been grimdark; But I watched this video to level up my game. most of these I already do, a couple of them I don't. But I really agree on what you say on 10:18 too descriptive games break the mood for me because my imagination usually feels more real than whatever the GM is describing.
From a homebrew I run we have Shrondigers Hitpoints, the players roll their hit dice at the first time they get damaged and they refresh after a full heal and rest. One day you roll full die and are can survive a hit by a truck and the other day can roll all ones and die by a small breeze.
About Lucky's backstory: You do risk making the character seem so over the top and funny when doing that. For real, I laughed a bit when you got to the kid that needs to take drugs to breath. It's more effective to have the character's sad/tragic backstory be told slowly over the course of the story and the less they think it's a big deal, the more disheartening it can be for the characters.
As someone who has played a feeble, softspoken, LG commoner to adventurer character (complete with rolling a constitution save at the sight of gore or horror) I can tell you firsthand that the good parties will become quite protective of those types of characters, and I'm sure the same is true with commoner to hero characters with everything to lose.
This is definitely a challenge to some. It's critical this is explained at a session zero or when you are advertising your game. Definitely not something you want to spring on players after they create characters and get into the game. Some players just want that 'superhero' type of play and are likely not going to want to play this style. Others love it. But it is definitely something you want to have all the players on the same page with as you begin the campaign.
I don't normally leave comments on videos I watch, but this is an exception. I enjoyed this video and all the ideas it brings up. When I first saw a dungeon craft video and my experience with ttrpgs was young, I found myself off put by a lot of the ideas. Now that I've watched more and gotten a feel for the channel as well as my own tastes, I like it quite a lot. Keep up the good work, and I look forward to future videos.
Something that I implement in my games is that while health potions are a thing they're very addictive and if you drink a health potion you have to make a con save vs addiction or you suffer from withdrawal.
I love the flavor of your game and the advice you provide to help 'grimdark' up my own games is invaluable and makes me look forward to running more games just to infuse that flavor and style. Keep up the good work, nod to Deathbringer. Cookie for the metric.
Hey man really love those insight and your firmer take on running a game. I know you already have a lot of content of this sort but I'd love to see more grimdark content and I'm sure a bunch of other would too. Definitely subscribing and becoming a part of the patreon 👌
I would extend the having-few-hit-points thing to characters that become slaves or get thrown out of their guild or church. Most players seem to retire characters who suffer such fates and roll up new ones. No! That's when a character really starts to get interesting! You used to be a powerful paladin, but now your church shuns you and you are the slave of a foreign prince? What a great start to a story!
I'm now just imagining a campaign where a paladin gets to be super powerful, then slips up, gets enslaved and breaks their vows loosing all their powers. Now they dedicate themselves to a dark patron to get out of slavery and work their way up to be a powerful warlock before they fail to stop some heroes from defeating their patron, removing all their powers. The cult they formed revolts and throws them to the curb. Now they dedicate themselves to becoming a fighter because every time they start to get good at some borrowed power it gets snatched away from them.
@@landerbennewith6169 that’s not a campaign it’s just a story
@@landerbennewith6169 That to me reads more like a good enemy NPC's back-story.
Holy shit, its Lindybeige!
@@ninthlevelcantrip799 LINDYBEIGE!!! ;p
11. Leave room for humor, kindness and heroism, without them there won't be any contrast, thus no grimdark. If the game becomes too daaaaaaaark the players just won't take it seriously.
This very much, there's a reason the term Grimderp exists, it's when things go waaaaaay too far into Grimdark and it ends up being hilariously absurd so the players will just laugh at it or stop taking the game seriously and start doing stupid stuff because it's "why does it matter anyway?" sort of effect..
Because, if everything is grim and misery all the time and no can ever have any fun, everyone would kill themselves or each other
@@Dragonmoon98 well when everything is horrible and terrible you just... adapt to it and laugh about it.
It happened to me once and since i understand when you go overboard with something in dnd it becomes a joke
Nothing darker then when that comic relief gets slaughtered.
That's why I can't really get into Warhammer
This reminds me of the setting in "The Witcher" novels. Monsters are rare and when you encounter them, they are pretty terrible. So rare, that a lot of people don't even believe in them
I wouldn't say monsters are a rarity in that series per se, but they are no where near as plentiful as when the Conjunction of the Spheres first happened, which was well over a 1000+ years prior to Geralt's story. So many of them have been culled since then tho.
Tbh I find mankind, in general, to be the biggest threat in that series.
Similar to the ttrpg Lamentations of the Flame Princess
I noticed people tend to be more creative when death exists. The pcs start to act like actual humans.
Because then you have to play your character like you care what happens to them. A sewer crawl goes from being a sewer level in a video game to "Ew, I'm not going into the filthy sewers! I could get sick!" Then watch the PCs go for a bath before presenting themselves to their quest giving lord so they don't get a beat down from guards because presenting themselves to a lord when they smell like feces is a disgrace and an offense. A punitive lord might lock them up in the stocks in the middle of town and have the guards dump buckets of cold water on them until the stink comes off.
Also, if PCs take ANY damage in a filthy ass place like the sewers, make them roll a check or a save against disease at least once.
I don't play "grimdark" and I have always played my characters as if death was just around the corner. Some character scoffed at death, some feared it with a pathological level of carefulness, but they have done so because that was who I wrote/played them to be.
@@MonkeyJedi99
I like gothic horror
@@MonkeyJedi99
You are the exception, not the rule.
A lot of players run their characters like they're in an MMO (no real concern for story; get quest > do quest > turn in quest > get rewards. rinse & repeat) and then become anything from frustrated to fuming when they dont get to essentially respawn.
IMO, the majority play their characters like your average MMO player (prefer not to die, but if it happens "meh") runs their toon (because their is no connect between the idea of them as a player and playing a person in a virtual world) , and the remaining portions of the player base are either people like you Monkey, or straight out " *Leeroy Jenkins!* ".
A sizable % of players essentially Leroy Jenkins their characters, because they never assume the role of a virtual person that really wants to survive.
@@insertnamehere8121 Sounds like you play with younger/newer players. Back when I and my group were younger we played a lot like you describe.
One thing I've found is that substituting magic equipment with unique equipment is a wonderful way to humanize a Grimdark setting. For example, in a session I ran some years ago, the PCs had encountered a self-stylized, "King of the Forest," who, in actuality, had stumbled upon the already-ravaged caravan of the kingdom's prince. He had found the sword regalia of the Kingdom abandoned at the scene, and upon taking it for himself, used it to conjure a story of his supposed might and rallied other bandits and brigands to lead them. Totally non-magic, but the PCs were stoked once they had claimed the weapon for themselves, and had become attached to it knowing that eventually they might have to return it. Totally non-magic, but just possessing it elevated their status and made it feel more powerful than any run-of-the-mill +#/+# magic weapon.
Was the sword better than average? Or just had a reputation? Can you explain further?
a fun experience with grimdark is when the players beat it. When they manage the happy ending, when they defeat the ancient evil, when they refuse to give in to the horrible world, it feels good
Hell yeah!
With regards to the torture: I recommend coming up with ominous sounding names for torture techniques or devices that don't exist in the real world. That way you fuel the players' imagination without it being too graphic.
THAT is coooooool! Very, very good. +100xp for you.
Great idea. But please give us some examples!
@@magyar9479 Eeesh just looking at the name 'Spider Legs' as a torture device makes me wonder "is it like Eight pronged rack with hooks in it that they dig in to you or is it a more 'pit and the pendulm' type device where you're strapped to the table and this eight bladed legs slowly curl in on you like a dying spider as the torturer works a rickety, screeching crank?"
The other way is to make it sound innocent but have it spoken of in quiet whispers. I mean just look at the barbed whips which used upon ships as flogging tools, their nicknames SOUND innocuous like "Cat o'nine tails" or "The Captain's Daughter" but in reality they could strip the flesh off of you with each swing.
One idea I had would be to say that the PCs wake up in the cell and hear screaming far off down the hall. That would be the extent of it and then I move on to what the players do.
@@magyar9479 or even just go with something that sounds like it comes from a horror film; The Nail Splitter, Flesh-Stitching, Skinbugs... or, if your players have seen the Saw films... use any of the devices there.
I like this one. And it real shows how the prof is great at coming up with ideas. The 1 hp sob story was great.
My favorite part of the video!
My gnome illusionist, Pasta would nod somberly. Than after his death start picking his pockets.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 The only issue I have with the 1HP character is that he'll die from any singular thing. While you did well to seed some story with him, what would seperate him from a 1HP commoner NPC named deathflag? If there's no way to get back up, with a random scratch from a cat being able to put Lucky down barely a minute into an adventure? This assumes he doesn't have great armor, which from his debted background doesn't seem likely.
It seems less a serious grimdark, and more a ludacris grimdark, where the darkness is so dark and edgy that it's funny, thus breaking the mood one would want out of a grim game.
I'm not saying PCs should have 99 HP at level 1, but I think the idea that low HP makes a character more enjoyable is a bit silly. By that logic, people can't have fun playing martial characters, because they'll usually have more HP than the pure spell casters.
Thin line between grimdark and grimderp, you have a point.
@@1ULTRAKNIGHT 100% agree with this. At Level 1 a characters HP isnt the issue making a game Grim Dark and rolling HP at lvl 1 and getting a 1-3 hp character doesn't make you some cool edgy grim dark character it makes you a character that gets killed by accidently stepping on a nail. That's not fun or creative.
This is exactly the type of game that my table uses as well. 'Grimdark', 'old school', 'realistic campaign', pretty much the best way to play (imho). Love the video!!
When I start to run a game at the shop, I have all players do the following ..
a.) Add 10 temporary points to each ability score for fatigue damage.
b.) roll for 40 temporary stress/ fatigue hit points with their chose of dice rolls of, ..2d20, 5d8, 10d4, 4d12, or 7d6.
c.) All limb hit damage equals to skill check penalty with that limb, multiple hits to a given limb stack.
d.) Any time you fail a strength check against being kicked or shoved, you must make a Dex check to keep from falling " prone."
e.) Many year veteran with a group of people who fought with foam weapons. Flat of the blade hits to the arm can cause numbness in hand grip, and I seen all kinds of slip & falls.
f.) PC makes str/con endurance checks when wrestling a dog/ werewolf or a guy with a knife to your throat. Once your arm strength is gone, dog eats your face.
g.) My larp group one time made mock ponies out of saw horses to roll joust with. They can be pushed or worked with your own legs, seen people get onto them too quickly and sild off onto the ground " hard."
h.) I have seen too many people over the years just walk into walls/ door frames, trip on the toe of their own shoes and other dumb azz fall downs leaving that person with hand or foot numbness. My brother works as a roofer, and even I have seen people " just " lose their hammer in mid swing.
i.) Once the PC take a few hard falls and seen the monsters also do so. They became very wary of what is around them in game.
j.) DM being a D*ck, " your PC wake up in the Inn room and find all their gear is gone."
As for myself, " Your PC wake up in the night to find a large rat chewing a hole in your boot on the ground, let the rat hunt/ fight begin. "
k.) How many times you seen a person at a Dollar Store go to pull a push open door ? There has been many times I go to unlock my door and twist the door nob only to be moving to fast, ending up walking into my door. Which cause me to bust my knuckles, losing my grip on the keys and dropping them in the dark.
Rogue, " I drop my lock pick ! Quick someone pick it up !"
Fighter, " Dude, we are in the dark with no light, I have mail gloves on, also with the PC flaw card of far-sightness. So I'm not finding anything. "
DM , " you hear voices from the other side of the door and people are coming up behind it. They are complaining that that door always .. sticks.."
The "old school" version of this was literally just a stack of character sheets that you didn't care about. "Oops, Zippo Pipes got crushed by the juggernaut. Should I bring in Pepsi Can or Desk Chair guys?" - hardly "grimdark."
One element of WFRP I really enjoy - you rarely start out as an OP 'hero'
In fact, you generally start out as weak and vulnerable. Reward without risk tastes of ashes...
Just trying out playing and finished WFRP campaign. Really like their Wounds system that's not goes overboard like several games HP, really talks how experienced they are, they can still die easily. Supported by Armor system that really states money says a lot but we often started as poor.
And then there is the Knight Errant.
@@EzraeL91 Oh? Yeah their starting stuff pretty rich lol. But I guess it's got in thematic of starting life each person is different. I know the system isn't perfect. Some Career got things that not in synch or so... 😂
Not any more. The newest Warhammer Rpg while pretty isn't as deadly.
@@archer3813 Well, it would if there wasn't the starting career of the Squire, and since every knight begins their life as a squire I see no reason to accept that op career as first one.
I took your advice with the "One hitpoint guy"! I made a character a bit ago, an old fellow named Gregory. Gregory had 4 hit points, awful stats, and was terribly in debt to the wrong people. He had a bad season of crops and had to borrow money from the city; he couldn't pay them back, so he borrowed money from the mob before the city could foreclose his debts. By campaign start, he'd already missed two payments. They were very clear that they would go after his family if he missed the next.
The party adopted him before the first scene of the first session ended. He survived, got enough money to pay off the mob AND the city, and "retired" from adventuring after just a couple of missions.
A smart man. retire when youre ahead.
He could be an old acquaintance in later adventures you could call on when youre on your own vendetta with the mob..
sometimes just keeping 'extras' and redshirts alive is a challenge in itself
I kept running into this Lindybeige character in the comments and was like "why is everyone listening to this bird ?" I finally looked him up and watched 5 of his videos back to back. What a great channel - he is no bird, he is a draco-phoenix.
The long awaited grimdark episode!
Fair warning about grimdark campaigns: I call them depression quests for a reason. They're not for everyone. Additionally, some people like to ban laughter to maintain mood with these. Just don't. Laughter and jokes act as your party's tension releases. It's imperative to be able to still scare and worry even through their laughter.
Totally agree.
Seth Skorkowsky made a video about running horror games.
He also says there is no horror without relief, and talks about the movie The Thing as an example.
@@MrTybex I'm aware, I've seen it. It's a great video. I actually do horror campains quite a bit myself so it was nothing new really.
Anybody who thinks humor has no place in grimdark has never read Joe Abercrombie.
Everything about “Lucky” had me laughing hysterically. Thank you, PDM!
My favorite character. Isn't he more interesting than a Tabaxi Bloodhunter/Arcane Trickster? Pass it on.
Thanks for the tips. I am starting a new campaign where I am taking the Forgotten Realms, dumping all the official canon (yes even Drizzt), and taking it back to the original 1E grey box with 2E rules. I am doing a high fantasy grimdark setting. Magic is failing, the nations are collapsing, and the Realms have become far more dangerous a place to live. Imagine if Robert Howard had colaborated with Ed Greenwood in creating the Realms. Good times.
The Prince of Nothing novels by R Scott Bakker are the best grimdark fantasy I’ve ever read, probably my favourite books/series of all time
Will have to check them out.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 The Darkness That Comes Before is the first book - written by a philosophy PhD :)
Yeah! It's up. :-) I personally found that when I make a campaign more dark, it becomes more realistic for my Players.
Ah grimdark, where even the cutest of things is extremely dangerous and outright deadly.
For example, a creature I recently brainstormed with couple of other DMs, the Prismatic Jellyfish. A basketball sized, air bound jellyfish glowing with a swirl rainbow hues, and just as deadly, if not more so given the cramped spaces of a dungeon. Give it light themed abilities/spells and a nasty toxin with paralyzing effect. Not exactly tough but something the players really don’t want to touch. Haven’t really worked out the stats yet.
Up the grimdark by introducing it with a paralyzed goblin caught in its tendrils. The hapless creature twitching as it is slowly raised to the Prismatic Jellyfish’s opening to be devoured.
I'm also reminded of the mushroom people from Dark Souls. Cute. Puffy looking. Hit harder than Saitama.
@@duskworkerdron5901 Yep and that’s the beauty with grimdark. Anything has the potential to wreck havoc if given the opportunity.
I am stealing this creature. Thank you/ 😊
“Where even the cutest of things is extremely dangerous and outright deadly?” Are we talking about a certain murderous rabbit from a certain movie? 😁
@@cosmicprison9819 only if it takes a holy hand grenade to kill 😆
I don't necessarily have an interest in going full Grimdark, but I love getting to think about this kinda stuff. It's really fun, and adding just a few of these could probably give you a nice dark fantasy game without the full-blown grimdark. Also, I love the candor in that opening xD
I played a wood elf rouge named Yinceran Vaneiros with 3 HP in my friend's campaign dubbed "The Rollercoaster of Death." Within the opening moments of the game, our ship was ambushed by pirates who tore our ship asunder. Yinceran was knocked unconscious by a falling cannon when he tried to abandon the ship. Fortunately, another member of the party grabbed Yinceran before he succumbed to the depths. He ended up being transformed into an abomination by Nurgle (my DM borrowed elements from WH).
The adrenaline rush from every dice roll being potentially lethal made it quite exciting to run such a weak character. I recommend people try it at least once!
To be fair, all it takes to make Candyland Grim Dark is, connect it to the Hansel and Gretel story, and let the kids come up with their own lore from there.
Cool idea.
I'm building a houserule right now for my gritty, low/dark fantasy setting. I didn't like how the normal hp system means that a character is either totally fine at 1 hp or on the brink of death at 0 and making death saves. I wanted to both give characters more agency as they're fighting for their lives and integrate it with a system for lasting (but not necessarily permanent) wounds. The wound table itself is still in progress, but this is what I'm using so far.
2) Lethal Wounds
a. Characters do not become unconscious at 0 hp. Instead, they must choose between taking an action or using their movement on their turn.
b. Characters doe not make death saves at the start of their turn. Instead, when they would take damage while at 0 hp, they instead mark off one death save and take a temporary "mortal wound". Roll on the "Mortal Wounds" table.
c. In addition to the other effects of a critical hit, the blow bypasses hp to inflict an immediate mortal wound without first reducing the character to 0 hp. A critical hit against a creature with 0 hp inflicts this wound in addition to the default wound for damaging them at 0 hp.
d. When a character takes takes their 3rd mortal wound/fills their 3rd death save box, they are now at "Death's Door" and are unconscious and dying. The character makes a standard (original) death saving throw at the start of each turn. If they pass, they linger another turn. If they fail, they are now fully dead. If a character returns from "Death's Door", one of their temporary "mortal wounds" becomes permanent.
e. Lesser restoration can remove a temporary mortal wound. Only greater restoration and higher magics may remove a permanent mortal wound.
In some ways, this makes it harder for characters to die, but it also leaves more room for serious consequences between winning and death. This game also uses the grim and gritty rest rules variant from the DMG, so receiving even a temporary wound will be a significant hindrance for some time.
How about Pc and the Gm role activ aganist the attacks? That will make it more activ. May also slow down the game.
@@LPFariy I like the idea, but that's precisely why I wouldn't do it. Especially against many attackers, having PCs roll against every attack would just become tiresome. I'm more likely to turn saving throws into static defenses than the opposite.
Way too complex. Easiest solution to make things get serious in a hurry is to have critical hits cause bleeders.
First crit causes a -1HP/round bleeder. You need to take a full *UNINTERRUPTED* round bandaging or a 1st level cure wounds spell to get it to stop, and _any_ damage in the next 5 minutes ruins the bandaging and reopens the wound. Try again!
Any additional crits all cause a -2HP/round bleeder. Same as the above, but a 2nd level cure wounds spell must be used to stop it. Same as above on further damage.
A 3rd level cure wounds spell or a drink (half a potion) from a _greater_ healing potion will stop all bleeders of any severity. A healing potion is the same as a 1st level cure wounds spell.
That's it! Bleeders can be a major crisis for players all by itself and can turn any severe hit into a lethal blow if unattended. It also gives major use to the players who make use of medical training... Stitches and scars, poultices and herbs to look for.
Reply so I can find this post later. My mind is on a similar wavelength. I really like the idea of heroes at 0 HP being too wounded to continue fighting, not outright unconscious and healing allowing them to be healthy enough to survive, but not be that useful in a fight. 'Critically Wounded' PCs (0 HP) can then use their turn to crawl half their movement or take an action at disadvantage, not both.
As a party we shall slay the algorithm dragon
Black arrow of trending! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and I have always recovered you.
As a member of The Holy Church of Algorithmos, I must advise against slaying the beast. Were it not for him, all the realms would be naught but heavily spectated miners and crafters. He has fallen on dark times, but he is a necessary force of ordered chaos. He can be redeemed to bring balance to this, the land of... tubes er smth, idk
Hey, this video turned out really great! Thank you, PDM for taking my idea and running with it!
Now I want to help that dung farmer with 7 kids!
Me too! Too the slave market!
Check out the variety of Commoner campaigns out there
Love this. I have wanted to run a campaign where all the PC's start as street rats and have to work for everything. Also playing warhammer 4e which helps the setting a lot.
Trying out DCC changed my perception about TTRPGs. Being an OP super hero is a fun power fantasy, but I've learned that when I'm playing games, I like for there to be stakes.
DCC was the first ttrpg I ever bought, and it and he Warhammer novels have pretty much informed all my game decisions ever since lol
DCC is gonzo and FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from grimdark
I'll say I absolutely adore your campaign playlist. I'll watch it every once in a while because it gives me a lot of inspiration for my own campaign. I wish you kept doing those videos because they are by far my favourite dnd capmaign updates.
If you ever give us a second "3 npc's your campaign needs" I'll be fulfilled in life
Role playing at it's finest! The concept that your beloved PC may get terminated by The Fates severing the skein of their life is what creates tension and maximum drama in the setting. My favorite RPG is Call of Cthulhu for that reason.
This was very well written and will be invaluable to me going forward. Thank you to both parties for writing this out
Hi and thank you!
1st/2nd edition did have one thing that made higher level adventuring more dangerous, which was to stop giving characters additional hit dice for hit points after a certain point (usually level 9). When characters start only getting a couple if hit points each level while their opponents keep getting full dice and new and more painful ways to hurt the players, it can get deadly quick, especially if the DM doesn't hold back with the monsters abilities.
My group has gone full swords & sorcery recently and all of these grimdark tips have gone very well in our games.
Ho! Professor !! All you are saying here is so true. I've been playing the game for 30 years now. I started with the basic edition. The « real D&D », where players started with 1D6 HP (1D4 for mage!) and life as an adventurer was awefully difficult. Now, with 5e Hasbro has made it a family game, where no one is dying and where every one get a medal at the end.... It is OK for certain peoples, but not for me, I love the harshness of the early game and the anxiety that it provoques !!! I love the THAC0 and the fact that there was no saving throw against death... Thanxx Pr DM for promoting this kinda game in 2021. I love you !
I always roll in the open.
“Lucky” love it!
Comment to feed the algorithm dragon.
This is the Way.
@@mandodelorian4668 This is the way...
For Rupert!
I sacrifice this comment to the youtube algorithm in the name of dungeon craft. May all this channel's rolls be natural 20s.
indeed!
I run Moldvay Basic this way. Character fragility and the low power curve makes every combat a white knuckle event. They frequently avoid combat if they can, at third level they were nearly taken out by tiny evil fey using javelins with paralytic poison.
I recently saw the Adam Koebel interview with Mercer, Coleville, and Mearls. ALL of them think Moldvay was better than AD&D. I agree.
....And I come here AGAIN ! After 2 months !! I needed to take notes from your nifty advices !
Red Fergus! The scarlet wolf banner continues to fly!
Glad you enjoyed his comeback!
That one hp pc giving his death letter to the party. Priceless
lol, yeah, that's one way to make your fellow players hate you. Make a weak, unhelpful character who even in death haunts the group. You can tell PDM has spent too much time as a DM, because even as a PC his first thought is how to screw over the party.
@@taragnor Have you thought about the idea that people have fun differently and some people would rather have unhelpful, but interesting member than very effective but boring minmaxer?
@@taragnor and what PDM said at 7:21. While players could be imaginative with roleplay or cunning in their plans, it stinks to be a burden on the party. Especially in regards to dungeon delving sessions, ambushes, or even social activities where your rolls are crucial.
I'm more of a high fantasy guy myself, but I do think that a game like this would be incredibly interesting and fun to play.
These backgrounds are phenomenal, i’ve been looking around for miniatures to capture that feel
I'm currently running a campaign in The Lost Citadel setting and I'm happy because this video assured me that I'm doing it right.
Cool! Glad to be of help.
One of my players sent to this to me to see if it is where I got my checklist to keep them on edge...I love the affirmation of a job well done!! Lok
In my first try at a dark OSR campaign, the most memorable character was Glass Jaw Joe, the 1hp fighter with insanely good luck 😅
Long live Glass Jaw Joe!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 forever in our hearts 😔
Found this channel about 2 weeks ago, which is perfect because I just started DMing. Love the content. I’m just happy to be commenting on a new video! I’m gonna listen to this as I drive for work. I am sure the content will be A+ as always. I love your approach to videos and DMing. Thanks for the advice.
Very good video, solid advice.
A tip for DMs out there who wants to try a world like this, but not inventive enough to make up an entire world (or just too lazy, like me).
Use R.E Howards' Conan/Hyperborea as a basis. Some of his work is very dark (I think it's mostly the stuff from when he was corresponding with Lovecraft).
Most "monsters" are either devolved humans, a large/mutated animal or a single, summoned horror from beyond. Much more scary than some random orcs.
Ohh, and don't play in a "rulesy" system like Pathfinder (or worse). Someone is gonna munchkin a half-halfling-half-giant wrestler with +49 to grappling who can outstrangle a kraken - not very grimdark.
I played 1st edition where we rolled 3d6 for stats and you can start with 1 hit point. I never seen anyone start with 1 hit point and say they had fun
Same.
PhDM, this was one of the best refreshers for grimdark GMing I've seen. I really appreciated the "skip the unacceptable stuff." I'm not a softie, but I too agree I skip the torture scenes. After a while, players in interrogations, go right to I START CUTTING FINGERS OFF.
I don't let them roleplay those scenes anymore. I have two choices: Interrogation and Enhanced Interrogation. If you go to step 2, you can assume that you have permanently physically (or mentally) maimed the victim--AND BETTER YET, YOU GAIN PERMANENT CORRUPTION TOO!
KEY NOTE HERE: The Player must CHOOSE and _know the consequences of their action.(corruption, increased insanity, bad luck, whatever)
This was adopted in the ALIEN rpg (killing an innocent/defenseless) and as we play WFRP and other similar games, this mechanic is already built in. In DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, I would simply rule one of the following: 1) The DM gets several free inspiration points, 2) The character permanently loses x.p. (yes, even if Evil, 3) Character gains Disadvantage to any roll the DM chooses for d4 future checks (the Gods don't like you).
Great suggestions! I'm really glad you put the bit in at the end about not crossing certain lines. A lot of people hear grim-dark and assume it has to be the worst of the worst imaginable content all the time always. But even in the good literature that does make use of those extreme things, The point is not the violence or what have you - it's about creating a world that feels real, and just a little bit cruel. Just like real life...
Baldrage deserves the credit. I added more explanation and then edited it out and went back to his original description.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Nice! So this video is a model for how to be a good lazy DM - use someone else's stuff, then give them credit! That's how approximately 70% of my campaign gets written lol.
This is great, and all sound advice... though having run grim/dark games for a long time as well, I have a few thoughts of my own.
6) I agree with not having inflated HP pools, but having only 1 or 2 hit points can be overly binary. At 1 hit point, you exist forever in either the functional or the dead state. Your farmer can't fall off a horse, be hit with a club, or get stabbed with a dagger without dropping like a brick. To me, that ends up feeling more like laser tag, where one touch and you're out. There's no sense of being 'hurt'. You're either hale, or on the ground dead. I prefer when PC's have few enough hit points that a single hit can kill them, but enough hit points that they can survive one, maybe two hits. Even the weediest character can get hit in the foot, and I like having that nuance available, both mechanically and narratively.
8) Definitely agree with travel being dangerous, but I've found this one very easy to overdo. If players are getting ambushed by bandits every time they go for drinks, travel becomes unfeasible. If it's too dangerous for adventurers to travel between towns, it's going to be near-suicidal for the average person. This opens up issues of how economies and trade exist in the world, and how these monsters/bandits feed in such an environment. Caravans are great, but if twelve Level 1 Guards can't stop a wyvern attack, those wyverns shouldn't be a 10% chance on your random encounter table.
You cannot have a surplus of predators in any ecosystem for any but the briefest time period. Too many bandits, and trade stops. When trade stops, the bandits will disappear as they have nobody to rob. If caravans become commonplace, bandits also disappear as robbery becomes too difficult and only the very best can actually survive plying their trade. The Golden Age of Piracy is a great time period to reference, in my opinion, to find that balance. Travel is just safe and feasible enough to be worth it without needing to equip every caravan like an armada, but dangerous enough never to leave port without the feeling that this time you might get unlucky and never return...
10) Obviously going overboard is entirely group-dependent, and you addressed that very well. My only input is that lines create safety, and if you can ever 'cross that line' (obviously not to the point of actually upsetting anyone), the results can be very memorable. For example, I find graphic depictions of torture cringe most of the time, and agree with you that the players can imagine better. However, just once I called the priest character's bluff and asked him to describe how exactly he made the recurring baddie "repent". For the first time, he had to inhabit his 'heartless zealot' role more honestly than just throwing out cool quotes from Warhammer. The characters were horrified at what justice and revenge actually looked like, and it made killing the main villain as much an act of horror and shame as it was one of exultation and victory (tying in to your points #1 and #9). The firebrand had a crisis of faith facing what he had done to a single (perhaps deserving) villain. That's not something he had faced in a campaign's worth of torturing and killing enemies 'off screen'.
It also startled the players a little bit, because they were invested in the moment and it felt 'real', almost as if the act had really happened. Some were a little shaken for the rest of the night, but all of them look back on it as a very memorable and poignant moment.
Obviously this is playing with fire, so your mileage may vary. I know my group very well, so I know what I can and can't do. Never take the risk if you think it will ruin someone's night, but I do think part of what makes a narrative 'dark' is the consensual defilement of taboos and the pushing of boundaries. For example, most would never accept violence against children in their games, even as spectators. Yet how many of those same players enjoyed Game of Thrones, where they burn children alive, hang them, execute them, bury them under rubble, push them off towers, and stab them in the womb. Examining and confronting those little hypocrisies can lead to very memorable places with the right group and the right story.
Good advice. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!
Some great points made here all around.
I find dangerous travel can often really hurt the verisimilitude of a setting, because DMs tend to get ridiculous with it. Bandits should be waiting for easy targets. Most DMs seem to always have these (often poorly equipped) bandits be eager to try to take on the heavily armed group of adventurers, which makes no sense. I think to set a grimdark tone it's better to have PCs run into a social encounter with friendly bandits. Then they learn later that the sociable fellows they shared a camp with yesterday were responsible for the brutal massacre of a defenseless family they find down the road.
Also, as far as animals go, they shouldn't be too dangerous (or aggressive) that village hunters couldn't earn a living. If you've got a 1/20 chance of being mauled by a dire bear every day you're outside the village, then all the village hunters / woodcutters / trappers are going to be dead. Unless the area is completely devoid of civilization, designers should avoid going too crazy on wilderness encounters.
@@taragnor Man... that encounter idea about a friendly group of "fellow adventurers" is awesome. Chilling around the campfire, swapping stories and techniques, only to find the next day that they are not adventurers, but actually rapacious brigands who've just burned and pillaged a nearby village. Bonus points if the party cleric saved one's life from an infected wound, discovered later to have been inflicted by the rusty pitchfork of a desperate, elderly farmer.
I love it.
I find that the travel issue is most egregious in Pathfinder/D&D. The experience system requires a set number of encounters in order to progress, which means that random or "random" encounters play a big role in the overall flow of the game. Especially in their pre-published stuff.
Since players need to face level-appropriate challenges, by the time they're mid-level, the wilderness has become an absolute deathtrap. Just trying to cross some hilly plains they'll get hit by land sharks, rocs, a dragon, probably some wyverns, a band of ogre raiders and a dire bear... meanwhile the story will hand-wave this away by putting a wooden palisade around all the nearby encampments, or giving them a militia of eight Level 2 Warriors. Sometimes that just feels lazy, and I've had many players joke about how caravan guards can do their job off-screen, but the second they accompany the PC's they're rolling on 18's to hit and dying in one or two blows.
I was playing a Westmarch game and decided to go in I notoriously dangerous dungeon with my under leveled wizard who I dumped my 6 into his constitution. He had 4 hp and was lvl 1 for a level 4 dungeon. Had a ton of fun playing overly cautious and almost making it out. He died when right at the of the dungeon I let my guard down doing a routine trap check and had a gelatinous cube land on me.
But you gained a GREAT story!
Watching this the night after my 1st-4th Edition (90's) Gamma World/Star Frontiers mash-up campaign. Nearly all of the party died, the party leader ended up with his left hand lopped off by a critical fumble with a vibrosword. Rolling out in the open. It was a good session with glorious, tense bloody scenes and the players loved it or so they said.
I'm starting a new campaign this Friday and told my players that in this world, every person, no matter race, dies at age of 70 (if not before, as usual).
I like this in particular because is really hard to think that an 300 y.o. elf would be interested in the meaningless problems of a bunch of lvl 1 humans and halflings. And, set the tone of inevitable death and the mystery of why that happens.
Grimdark can be a great spice to the D&D stew, but you can overdo it, too. As a player, I always want to feel like I can affect change in the game world, even if it's hard.
Love this episode, please consider expanding the grimdark content on your channel.
I am trying to be a comic writer as a hobby, and watching this video gave me a little push in the correct direction, thank you
Best of luck!
It's kind of why I stopped playing d&d well and the whole covid thing my enemies had no weight everything felt really simplified and easy you were like almost immortal
Hey I want to say thank you for the tips, I think I am going to use the tips to create my game now.
Comments for the comment god! I've been wanting to inject more grimdark into my game (5e, frist time players but playing for about a year now). I have struggled with how to do this mid-campaign, however. But much of this seems like it can be gradually applied as we go. So look out players, here comes the grimdark.
I'm willing to give up adding Constitution to my hitpoints, but I insist that the rule apply to enemies as well. Makes being cautious and tactical all the more rewarding if the enemies are made of tissue paper too.
I agree 100%. That one rule seeds up the game in a good way.
This reminds me of my pathfinder character who had a wisdom of 6. His mind was irreversibly shattered by the Shadow Court of Nadal. He carried a mithril candlestick and talked to it thinking it was a conduit to a higher being which was actually the part of his mind that was shattered and imprinted onto the candlestick. The bugger was the luckiest character ever and often through sheer stupid luck saved the day despite being comic relief and surprisingly the most sensible character of the group. That was until phantasmal killer killed him and his luck ran out at level 10.
I would watch 132 hours of an online campaign to see what happens to Lucky. Also nice list Baldrage.
Lucky sounds amazing
Hi and thank you!
Love the idea of monsters being grotesque variants of normal races, and I will protect Lucky to my last breath! ✊🏻
The setting Warhammer Fantasy RPG is actually really good for this way of handling monsters, the official line (and the line of the majority of the people of) the Empire (the largest human nation in the "Old World" is that the ratfolk known as Skaven are either just horribly mutated Beastmen of Chaos or a myth, the fact that the Empire had an Emperor known by the name "Mandred Skavenslayer" is just seen as "people we so gullible back then...", the things that the average human admits exists and what they filter out is quite staggering in the Empire. More grimdark settings are actually really fun as along with the darker tones, morally grey NPCs and shorter and rougher lives, there is a lot of room for dark humor, strange ideas and you will have a blast coming up with things people treat as truth, but in truth is just superstition...
Currently there’s a tv show on Netflix called Thieves in the Wood. Very Grimdark. If you haven’t seen it and love the Professors game I really think you’ll love it.
Thanks for the recommendation! I’m going to have to check this out.
As an aside, and not inherently fantasy related-but I feel the need to plug this everywhere ‘cos I love it so much: Barkskins on Hulu is incredible.
No guts, no glory. Thanks as always for the great content, Professor.
Awesome tips!!! Morally grey npcs, tough moral decisions, and humanoid npcs are HUGE in my game. The only tip that I throw out the window is the whole keep magic rare and players not too strong. Magic is relatively common, but it’s power varies WIDELY in my game, which adds back some of the mystery. And when my players hit 15th level or so they are fighting homebrew gods usually so the insane fantasy powers make sense. The stakes usually are some kind of world threatening situation (like the White Walkers in GoT) so it makes sense to need great powers. But the stakes are kept high since they could always die, be betrayed, or pick the more evil of the difficult choices.
Excellent as usual. Loved seeing some of these greatest hits re-visited. I definitely need to go back and raid some of the older videos for my scenarios.
Please do!
Yes! Yes to all of this! Another thing I do is start below level one. No class, just background (maaaaaybe one feature if I'm feeling it will help with personality) and a background using a commoners stats, you can redistribute two points. My last grimdark game was set in an alternative victorian age like a ye olde shadowrun (so guns were a thing) and no heroic healing, if you are dropped below 0 then your going to need the doc. Also prevented healing magic. Really had to think in this campaign and my players were great!
It’s great to hear a summary of your setting and game play. I’m already using a lot of your concepts in my own game. My current campaign is something between grim dark and Tolkien.
Oh my... this is definitely old school. I’m just getting back into DND after 30 years away. Back in my day I was a paladin stripped of an arm and then my alignment, making him a useless fighter who soon died at the hands of a group of ghouls. To this day that memory stuck with me. Grim can be good.
Awesome story. Still playing with my brothers and 2 friends since the 80's.
Love this! Stealing *most* of these for my Dark Caribbean setting book. And Lucky needs to be an NPC in my campaign!
I'm a huge fan of the manga goblin slayer ( and love the Skarsnik novel), my imagination when it comes to the torture they inflict is vivid to say the least.
I liked the ending too! Glad I'm not the only one, lol.
I love all of Dungeon Craft videos! Still good advice today
Damn this video goes all in, well done. Some of those decisions are hardcore and definitely not for every campaign but I want to try it that way at some point
I've always been grimdark; But I watched this video to level up my game. most of these I already do, a couple of them I don't.
But I really agree on what you say on 10:18 too descriptive games break the mood for me because my imagination usually feels more real than whatever the GM is describing.
Thanks for sharing. Rock on, Hellen!
Grimdark! Just what I needed! ;) Thanks, Professor!
Is Professor Dungeon Master usually so tan? Has he been on a sabbatical to the Caribbean?
He filmed this back in June/July
From a homebrew I run we have Shrondigers Hitpoints, the players roll their hit dice at the first time they get damaged and they refresh after a full heal and rest. One day you roll full die and are can survive a hit by a truck and the other day can roll all ones and die by a small breeze.
About Lucky's backstory: You do risk making the character seem so over the top and funny when doing that. For real, I laughed a bit when you got to the kid that needs to take drugs to breath. It's more effective to have the character's sad/tragic backstory be told slowly over the course of the story and the less they think it's a big deal, the more disheartening it can be for the characters.
It reminded me of that old old joke about a dog with one eye, deaf, 3 legs called Lucky
This sounds just like WFRP... Love it!
Grimdark is exactly how I want to play and what I want to play. Thanks!
As someone who has played a feeble, softspoken, LG commoner to adventurer character (complete with rolling a constitution save at the sight of gore or horror) I can tell you firsthand that the good parties will become quite protective of those types of characters, and I'm sure the same is true with commoner to hero characters with everything to lose.
I absolutely agree that Grimdark is much more fun.... trying to get player buy in is much more difficult however
This is definitely a challenge to some. It's critical this is explained at a session zero or when you are advertising your game. Definitely not something you want to spring on players after they create characters and get into the game. Some players just want that 'superhero' type of play and are likely not going to want to play this style. Others love it. But it is definitely something you want to have all the players on the same page with as you begin the campaign.
You're an awesome DM, you've given me great inspirations for my low fantasy campaign setting.
Thanks, Devious!
I am going to start the lucky fan club ! Us lucksters will sit around reading the tales of luckys adventures ! #longlivelucky
I love it how you just double down on this stuff. So good.
Thanks. My feeling is this vibe is what makes DungeonCraft DungeonCraft and not every other channel.
"Whatever the players image Is probably more horrible than whatever you can describe."
I take that as a challenge.
I literally laughed out loud. Glad you stopped by.
I don't normally leave comments on videos I watch, but this is an exception. I enjoyed this video and all the ideas it brings up. When I first saw a dungeon craft video and my experience with ttrpgs was young, I found myself off put by a lot of the ideas. Now that I've watched more and gotten a feel for the channel as well as my own tastes, I like it quite a lot. Keep up the good work, and I look forward to future videos.
Something that I implement in my games is that while health potions are a thing they're very addictive and if you drink a health potion you have to make a con save vs addiction or you suffer from withdrawal.
PDM, this is a cracking video! (I'm also stoked to see MERK BORG and THE BLACK HACK TWO on your shelf!)
I love the flavor of your game and the advice you provide to help 'grimdark' up my own games is invaluable and makes me look forward to running more games just to infuse that flavor and style. Keep up the good work, nod to Deathbringer. Cookie for the metric.
My D&D days are over but I will definitely use this in my world building. Awesome video! Subscribed!
Man, your videos have been on point! I wish i had found your channel earlier!
Welcome aboard!
Really great episode. Thank you, Prof DM.
I'm not sure the algorithm likes Grimdark, but I know I do!
Watching this as I start the earliest prep for my upcoming 2e AD&D Dark Sun campaign 😎
LOVE Dark Sun. GREAT artwork!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Absolutely! Brom is kinda like a more weird and alien version of Frank Frazetta - instant classic 😁
OH THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO !!
This is truly inspiring !!
Hey man really love those insight and your firmer take on running a game. I know you already have a lot of content of this sort but I'd love to see more grimdark content and I'm sure a bunch of other would too. Definitely subscribing and becoming a part of the patreon 👌