I took a bootcamp in 2022. I was one of the extremely lucky ones to find a full-time job a few months out. Everything you stated was completely accurate to my experience, from learning Ruby, to the school quoting 90% placement when only 25-50% of my classmates got jobs. Also some of those people only got 3-4 month internships and haven't found another job since. This has been the single most accurate video of the current bootcamp situation I've seen on YT.
@@SkillFoundryIO The bootcamp I went to did include them as finding 'Full-Time' Jobs. They also removed anyone who took a 'break' from looking for a job from the list. So the numbers would be 90% because they really were only counting people who found jobs and excluded the people who couldn't.
It was you that got the job. Not everybody is fit to work in this field, but these bootcamps are advertising like anybody can.
6 місяців тому+3
Coding bootcamps were only useful back in 2010 to 2015 when devs were scarce and in high demand. They are often $10 K or more for 3 months, based on a sketchy curriculum slapped together by an instructor. Many offer deferred tuition plans, which get sent to debt collectors if you don't pay. But they claim it's not debt, it's an "ISA" You can get the same or better material from free or low cost sources (Free Code Camp, Odin Project)
There was a pretty big boom period from 2018-2021. But yeah, I’ve seen lots of bootcamp curriculum and most of it is hot garbage. Especially now because they’re bleeding money and won’t invest in it. The Skill Foundry content is way deeper and more rigorous than the Bootcamps and you could subscribe for like 10 years before you spent as much as you would for a camp.
I AM SO GLAD I FOUND THIS VIDEO THANK YOU SO MUCH HOLY, I got off the phone with out of the EDx Advisors for their bootcamp that was sponsored by UNC and this whole time i Thought it was UNC and was seriously considering it even though my family is in poverty I was planning on working 2 jobs and try to pay for it. BUT WOW this video saved me and my family thank you so much. Im really lost right now I dont know what to do I work at Freddys as a 19 year old and just worried Im scared especially after learning the "University" I was ab to go to was a scam... SMH.
im a professional chef wanting to change job to be a software engineer but because of time and work i need to find a way to speed up the process and not to lose it all by enrolling in a bootcamp while working thus not losing my job that helps with life at the moment and try to change career and be on the safe side knowing that if i do a bootcamp i will be employed and not worry about being jobless
No learning pathway can guarantee you a job because landing a job is more than just being able to code. It sounds like you are not in a position to comfortably take risks so I would look at either online degree programs or self-paced, online courseware. With a self-pacing option if you want to go fast at a bootcamp pace you can, you just have to have the discipline to make a schedule of learning and stick to it. Placement rates among bootcamp grads have cratered and if you do take one and are good I would still be prepared for a 6-12 month job search post camp. If that's not feasible for you then please take a different option.
Just be aware that this is only to get you started with some basics. After that learning is not over. AI will only make things more difficult to understand and verify so you will at some point be forced to learn the theoretical foundations.
Okay I had to update. Thank you for this entire thing. I have not taken any bootcamps. I paid for codecademy for like 2 years. And I have learned. Plenty. This is absolutely disgusting. I am at 1:49 and I absolutely love your take here. Saying if you're charging 10,000 - 20,000 a person and you can't turn a profit, 'youre a piss poor business person' XDXDXD I aboslutely loved hearing you callout the AI claim as BS immediately. MY MAN. I need to press play though and finish the video. XD
Great advice. I am 52 and looking to change career, I have some experience with java, js and python and was focusing on the js route. This has been a wake-up call that I needed to hear.
You're welcome! With the list of skills you gave, I might recommend putting your full focus on Java and Python. Ageism is a thing in this field but less so in large, established enterprises and the contractors that serve them. With Java being #1 in that space, I believe your odds will be better overall than JS/Front-End. Definitely research and connect with professionals in your region and get their advice as well!
Most places still want a 4 year degree and don't want to take risks with someone with no prior coding experience who just graduated from a boot camp. The career counselors don't really help you find work after you've finished the course and tech companies have been laying off most of their staff making this field very competitive.
I agree did a bootcamp and they just seem to hire their own students.Cheaper than hiring tutors with real world experience. I do have an old cs degree.@@SSGoatanks
Wanted to chime in and agree about the contractor angle. I work in the SRE/Cloud space nowadays and our team just hired a fellow contractor who is probably 60. He’s been great building out a whole SDK suite in just weeks after he joined 🎉
These "for profit" bootcamps hate it when I question them and I push back because I know the quality is low. The other one to watch out for is Emeritus.
Learned self taught for a year, ended up enjoying coding so now I’m getting a B.S in CS because I found it enjoyable. I recommend others to do it this way plus you’ll always have that degree and didn’t throw thousands of dollars at a lousy bootcamp certificate. Nothing wrong with certs, just depends tbh
This is why I switched to IT. I want to be in the industry while I continue learning. I'm almost done with my A+. I'm not sure if I want to get any more TIA certs just yet. Perhaps Azure 900 and python. I'm on a journey but I also have to eat.
It's very common for someone to take A+/Network+, get a support role at a company, and use that income as a base for transitioning to programming. As a bonus you can also learn a lot about how networks, databases, storage, and cloud systems work which makes you a stronger developer when you get there.
Bootcamp investigation is difficult. So many of them advertise high job placement and full reimbursement if no job is acquired after a certain time post graduation. There's so much fine print and a scammy approach to a lot of these, but since I'm new to the field, it's difficult to confirm things. Do you have any recommendations for good bootcamps that would be worth the money and time?
@@SkillFoundryIO What's your opinion about Launch School? I heard their approach is more for mastery and slow building as opposed to the typical bootcamp model.
We just thank God for people like you who tell it as it is. In your series, are we you going to lead us to a point where we can now create our own desktop apps and android apps on our own and beyond?
I really appreciated this video! When I did my own investigative research a year ago as I looked for boot camps, I came to the same conclusion about the inflated placement rates and lack of a thorough education. I already have a masters in mechanical engineering and didn't want to go back to school, eventually settling for the Launch School curriculum which is one of the "slower paced" programs you mentioned. I did love that you validated my doubt in learning Ruby for back-end, as I also had gone on Linkedin and found a severe lack of Ruby jobs and one of my concerns has been learning an outdated language. If you are familiar with the Launch School curriculum, do you think it would be good to engage in their capstone program that functions as a 3 month boot camp (once you have a year of study under your belt) and build out an app with a team for my portfolio, or spend the next 6 months learning Java, C#, or another ubiquitous language and building a project on my own in that language?
I'm not familiar with Launch School's capstone program. At a glance it looks like an ISA of 18% of your first year's salary or $18k, whichever is higher. Because the core curriculum only does Ruby or JavaScript I would probably want to add a common back end language like you identified. Their placement rates on the capstone (unverified) are pretty solid but if they're filtering people based on performance in the core they're taking the cream of that crop so the higher placement rates make sense. My old bootcamp had a >90% placement rate as well but our admissions were very difficult- we rejected about 80% of candidates. If they're doing that type of filtering it speaks well of their program. If you're not in a hurry, I'd say pick up one of those backend languages, you can do it at a fraction of the cost, and it doesn't stop you from going back and doing the capstone if you change your mind. Happy Coding and Good Luck!
@@SkillFoundryIOI spoke to the owner of Launch and he admitted that most of those people who got jobs after partaking in his program had degrees already. That definitely played a role for sure.
I just signed up for Coding Temple. Am I making a mistake? If not a complete mistake, any advice on how to succeed at getting a genuine placement after graduation? Or advice while doing the bootcamp? The draw is paid tuition if I don’t get job placement and online reviews. Many good ones, some bad ones.
In this market you are going to have to learn well and hustle. Lots of networking and ensure you go deep with your knowledge. It’s not that you can’t get jobs out of camps but the placement rates have been sub-40% for a while now.
You said.. what i have been trying to say… for so long. And I graduated from Kenzie Academy. And now im a C# developer. Self taught. I knew they were going downhill but it took longer than I thought for them to shut down lol
It’s astonishing to me that before the university bought them they had raised like $100 million. Back in 2013 I bootstrapped my Bootcamp on less than $100K and had a greater than 90% placement rate. I hope your career is going well though, keep learning!
@@SkillFoundryIO yep. I think things really went downhill when covid hit. They TRULY mismanaged money exactly like you said. I was there lol. They hired so many people that didn’t matter (marketing team was a part of that number) and had the audacity to FIRE teachers that did have experience for students who didnt! 😂 Amazing. However the owner (who sold to the university or gave up the company, cant remember) was a douche bag. They made Some mistakes. They treated their REAL teachers wrong. They also lied about placement numbers. Their administration was really messed up. I knew for a fact they were going down.
@@SkillFoundryIO on top of everything else. I was not ready. Top of my class and still not ready. You are telling people the truth. I hope folks are listening. I cringe at all these programs marketing these outdated programs, javascript, and python. Im living it right now. I have to study everyday to just stay afloat because I was not taught correctly after $21,000
Hey, I just got graduated high school this year in June. And right off, I joined AA (App Academy). Hoping to break into tech faster than my peers who are doing the classic 4 year bachelor route. I fear this current, idk where it'll take me upon graduation, I'm also getting some tech certifications (AWS, Oracle, and etc on the side). But please let me know your thoughts.
I'd expect it to be rough searching in the current climate, but it will improve. Broadening your skills into AWS is a good move. Make sure your portfolio continues to develop after graduation and network, network, network! Networking is going to make or break you if you lack a degree. Hopefully, you're not in the Ruby track! That's a rough spot even outside this job market.
Thanks for this! I'm 42 so another undergrad is not suitable for me. I'm very interested in ML & data science. I learned python and html/css from doing projects on youtube and zero to mastery. Is an Ml bootcamp such as Interview Kickstart worth it? I have a great total com package in my current role but would love to do something I actually enjoy. Even if it means taking a step back in pay to get into a field I love.
I'm not familiar with that bootcamp so I can't comment on them specifically. Be sure to thoroughly research the camp, talk to former students, instructors, and use tools like LinkedIn to see if you can find alumni in actual jobs. Taking a step back financially is a personal decision. In this market I would make sure you have at least 6 months runway to be unemployed post camp. The safer route with your good paying job would be to find something part-time you can chip away at while the market recovers.
Unfortunately, Machine Learning is an area of Computer Science that there is no short cut into, your time is better spent by taking advice from people who actually an expert in the field and are being realistic about it, here you go- ua-cam.com/video/9nbh6lgFfo4/v-deo.htmlsi=JD_kdutD6dst7ugR
*These things are all true.* But there are some nuances behind it. The language you learn first doesn't matter that much. You might have a better time learning Python or Java or C# or PHP or JS. Some people want to learn UI and design systems and play different roles in the team. Python isn't the fastest way to get building HTML and CSS forms. There might be more C# jobs but does everyone want those jobs? It's going to depend on the person's goals. It's true that there are a lot of not-so-great or even _rotten_ schools. But there are a handful of great schools. They aren't all the same. The concept of a 'boot camp' isn't the problem. Some people will be better off reading books or watching videos. Some people will thrive in a time-boxed cohort-based environment. We can have all the options - as long as they are implemented well.
Thank you for your comment! I do disagree that the language you learn first doesn't matter much. As you point out "Python isn't the fastest way to get building HTML and CSS forms". Picking a first language that provides alignment to your goals makes for a more effective start to your technical journey. This is why I give away a free getting started course on my site that compares and contrasts languages, careers, and learning pathways. Agreed that accelerated training, or "bootcamps" isn't the problem, but the lack of regulation makes it very difficult for a non-technical consumer to evaluate the quality of programs. If you assume most of them aren't worth the money, you wouldn't be far from the truth...
I’m with a boot camp now. The program has been very intense so far. The two instructors are very talented and have plenty of experience. Only 9 students too. Indeed we are now start working with C# along with JavaScript Will it work out? Will I get a job down the road? Don’t know. But the curriculum has been very good so far.
That's good to hear! Not every bootcamps delivery is bad. Now, on the business side, if you have two experienced instructors in the US, they're costing about $140k each / year (taxes, benefits, etc.), which is $23k/month just for instruction. 9 students at an average of $14k tuition. If it's an ISA they're not getting paid yet unless they sell it off to a loan company at 70 cents on the dollar. So, the total revenue is likely between $88k and $126k with $69k in expenses. Then you factor in marketing, enrollment, and overhead like space, legal, insurance, other staff, etc. the camp is probably losing money on your cohort. Which is why we see so many camps going under. Naturally, that has nothing to do with you! So study hard and good luck my friend!
@@SkillFoundryIO Thank you. Hope this all works out in the end. I agree. The instructors can’t be cheap. On the other hand. I know for sure this organization has other revenue streams. Think development for businesses And it’s quite a small organization.
Pretty unlikely. You'll be competing against hundreds of CS grads for entry-level positions and companies will always prefer a CS degree over a bootamp
The CS degree is pretty interesting. If paired with an internship they nearly always win. However, there are a lot of substandard programs that don't teach hardly any vocational skills and don't provide internship opportunities. Those students are at a disadvantage compared to the average bootcamp grad. It's also important to be mindful that CS doesn't necessarily mean programming, it can also be a focus on data science, networking, cyber security, embedded systems, etc. So those grads don't compete for developer jobs.
I appreciate your openness to discuss this. Have been on the fence about learning coding for future cloud jobs I would like to obtain. Thanks for pushing me away from this...almost predatory issue in the industry right now.
@@SkillFoundryIO so what in general is your tips to starting out now? I want to learn python paired with my AWS Solutions architect Certification but very lost on where to start because of the lack of Gateways to entry level positions. Thank you!
Cloud is hard to jump right into, but it can be a lateral move with network/cloud admin which comes from support type roles. Don’t be afraid to take a longer path in this market.
Subscribed for honesty . Despite the fact you said you yourself had run a bootcamp , I do not believe you are a shill by any means . The fact you point out that c# and Java are what you want to learn if you want a job proves that to me. If you wanted attention and clicks this would have been about Python (if the whole point was not already lamenting on how front end is over saturated)
Thank you for your kind words. I left the bootcamp space for a reason. I have a video coming up soon discussing the reality of entry level jobs in Python. Stay tuned!
I am at the end of a bootcamp. And i agree with almost everything. Instructors. Curriculum. And they hooked me with university name. I learned. But it felt like independently.
“Still teaching Ruby to beginners.” Ruby/Ruby on Rails is still popular in the West and East coast startup scenes. Heck, I was interviewing with the NYTs because they wanted a lead Ruby on Rails dev for their cooking section.
If you are trying to get your first job in tech since boot camps are a rip off how should you go about this? I'm self taught and was heavily thinking about going through a bootcamp so my resume doesn't get thrown in the trash. I was also afraid of just this that boot camps would just take your money and give you a worthless certificate that wouldn't get you a job anyhow. So for someone in my shoes what is then the path? Everyone seems to say you don't need the CS degree. Assuming that is true what will get you to the point where you actually get interviews?
The #1 thing that gets people jobs is effective networking. Many people spray their resumes into apply now boxes and wait, which isn't a good way to get interviews, even for an experienced professional. If you're networking effectively, have the skills, and can prove it with a portfolio and pass coding interview tests, you'll eventually find work.
i come from a background of having bachelors in info systems and 3+ years experience as a data analyst. So with this bootcamp i'm going to take i don't think i should have any problem finding a job 🙏
@@SkillFoundryIO Will do. Thank you man! Appreciate you alot! Im stuck between tech elevator and springboard. Would you happen to have any opinions on either bootcamp? Springboard is 8000 cheaper learning javascript and python. Tech elevator focuses on Java.
Java is the top language for enterprise jobs, JavaScript is saturated, and Python isn't a great language for web developer jobs. Not sure I'd pay the tuition at TE in this market though... especially since they're under a different ownership that also owns Hack Reactor and some f-ckery has been going down there.
@@SkillFoundryIO thank you appreciate that! Springboard came out to only 7800 when i paid in full so i went with that. Even though the languages aren't great i hope to use that as a basis and learn other languages in my own time. Again appreciate you! 🙏🙏
I know this video is supposed to be a warn for me not to go to any coding bootcamp .But I'm still hoping they will help me in some kind of way. So I'm from Vietnam and I used to go to college in Canada then I dropped out. I don't even have a job in my country .I consider myself as a newbie in tech. I'm in dire need for a job and I really like technology and algorithms. Do you think there's still some hopes for me if I go to a bootcamp in countries like Canada, Singapore,....? Thank you very much!
So if i want a career change and i have zero experience in coding where is the best place to start? Is there a course or place i can learn to code java or c# that will teach me enough to get my foot in the door with tech industry or do i absolutely have to get a 4year degree😢?
Having a degree of some kind is usually enough. As far as courses there’s a lot out there, including mine at Skill Foundry. (Free sample on the site) With zero experience do a few lower cost things first and see if you really like coding.
Yeah, MERN is very oversaturated since most of the bootcamps teach it. So much competition for grads. Are you spending your time going deeper or are you trying to broaden out a bit?
@@SkillFoundryIO I agree. Yes, I am working on finishing my BS software engineering. It's selfpaced so Im halfway done. I want to dive deep into backend programming but still deciding between java and c# (2 tracks offered by my college)
I appreciate the transparency, I am going through a coding boot camp now but well aware the outlook of getting a job right out of the gates is slim! I already have in mind I will need to learn as much as I can on my own and go back to college but I felt hey why not since uncle sam is paying for it lol
First, you'll have to pick a part of the cloud. Are you looking at security, networking, or applications? Usually, cloud professionals upskill from one of the basic roles of security analyst, network administration, or software development. It's somewhat rare to jump directly into cloud roles at entry level. So, my advice is to build some core skills in one of those areas and start adding cloud certifications to it.
So which is the best site to look for a job? How do i find what skill stack to learn enough to get a job and be further trained on the job without being laid off?
Couple things to respond to here. First, the best places to look for a job varies by your region. It could be job boards, it could be networking, it could be directly on company sites. Try to network with professionals in your region and find out what is common locally. Second, the best way to choose skills is to decide what you want your job role to be then research positions in the region you want to work in. In most regions you will find a cluster of skills that are more common than others. Third, being laid off is not something you have control over so it's not something to fret about. Focus on finding work at an organization that has good mentorship and onboarding and work that evolves your skills. Then if you do find yourself dismissed, you should be better skilled than you were when you started. I hope this helps! Happy coding!
Sir, i want to learn python to become data analyst and I'm coming from non- technical background 2 year career gap,i know some basic knowledge of python. And now I'm frustrated to watching 8-11 hours video on freecodecam should I learn from book or video?
Yeah, a lot of people overemphasize video delivery when the reality of the field is that most documentation is written. My content philosophy is to use both video and written content where they make sense. The problem with books though is that they tend to lag behind the state of the technology because they just aren't published as fast in general as videos. Try to find a resource that has a lot of hands-on activities and the opportunity to get feedback or join a peer learning group. Passively watching videos is generally not a good way to acquire a hard skill.
Coding Boot camps teach the easiest , least mentally taxing part of SWE. For the money they ask for they should at least teach the equivalent of 60 credits worth of SWE which should take at least a year with no breaks . Unlucky for them that interest rates are rising and cost of borrowing is getting higher, HR for companies are now being very selective, so boot camp grads now go to the back of the line as they have the low end, least versatile skillset as opposed to a degree holder who even with a minor in SWE has substantial programming training. So Bootcamps have to either step up and provide a more complete education at least equivalent to a minor or 30 credits worth of training in SWE to make their asking prices worth it or they will go out of business.
Great point. If you think about time/depth for the tuition that 20 students pay they could have me and another experienced developer as their personal trainers full time for a year!
I'm actually not aware of any bootcamps that actually place you in a job. Some have career fairs (like colleges), but most of the big ones just give you some information on how to execute a job search and leave you to it. Competitive entry is one of the signs of a better run camp. I probably should do a video with tips on how to research a camp. Hire-Train-Deploy programs like Revature do pay you to learn and generally place you, but those come with restrictions, like you have to take their job.
Coding bootcamp can be better than the last one but they will never give you the proper engineering education that a degree will give you. Based from own experience
You should yearly have a reminder short or something, just highlighting these facts for the average person. Seriously Man. ::I liked my own comment. Because I hope it gets seen XD
It’s not that AI is crap, it’s going to be a useful tool. But closing an education program because of AI is crap because it’s not like they’re shuttering degree or other programs because of AI.
Yes, I've been playing with LLMs quite a bit to see if they're suitable to be a TA, they're just not there yet. Too many mistakes, hallucinations, and because they lack context into where you are as a learner they also tend to show you things you're not ready for. I do think that eventually they'll be a good partner in learning, but they'll still need to be directed by someone who knows what they're doing!
Historically, we have increased the productivity of developers, exponentially, and every time we do so, the world demands more software. Whenever people say “but this time things will be different”, I get very skeptical.
Boot camps are cheaper on average and faster than traditional four year degree programs even though they don't give you a degree. However, the folly here is assuming that a traditional degree will afford a better education. The horror stories from college grads are endless when it comes to learning to code. If you think lack of regulation is bad for bootcamps, look at well-regulated colleges and their curriculum. Most graduates know 4-5 languages very superficially, have never worked with Git, have no idea how to work with package managers, and have no skills with any other relevant technologies that employers want. I don't have all the answers, but I will never understand how colleges get a free pass while boot camps get all the scrutiny. Did we not just gloss over how the OPM agreements allow Trilogy/2u/Edx to borrow university names in the first place?
True. See my video on the gaps in college degrees for my observations and criticism of higher education, as well as tips for how to close those gaps. I agree it's unfortunate that someone paying higher education prices doesn't get more vocational training to go along with the theory. I will say that scrutiny of colleges is increasing as the tuition price has inflated, so hopefully, change is coming! I think one of the main considerations for someone without a degree considering bootcamp vs. college is that even if the college experience ends up not being ideal, a degree still has value in the market. If you go to a bad BootCamp, you're not only unemployed, but the bootcamp certificate has no value.
I almost finished applying. Decided to get my bachelors at wgu instead.
Good luck on the degree! Let me know in future comments how that’s going… I hear WGU come up a lot but I haven’t taken a close look at them yet.
@@SkillFoundryIO I will let you know actually. :) learning a lot of Java. Should be fun!
They are easiest accessible for people looking for undergrad CS credit Remote
I took a bootcamp in 2022. I was one of the extremely lucky ones to find a full-time job a few months out. Everything you stated was completely accurate to my experience, from learning Ruby, to the school quoting 90% placement when only 25-50% of my classmates got jobs. Also some of those people only got 3-4 month internships and haven't found another job since. This has been the single most accurate video of the current bootcamp situation I've seen on YT.
Wow, I’m glad to hear you found employment. The sad thing is I bet they count the temp ones as placements.
Thank you for your kind words and comment!
@@SkillFoundryIO The bootcamp I went to did include them as finding 'Full-Time' Jobs. They also removed anyone who took a 'break' from looking for a job from the list. So the numbers would be 90% because they really were only counting people who found jobs and excluded the people who couldn't.
Oof
Which one did you attend?
It was you that got the job. Not everybody is fit to work in this field, but these bootcamps are advertising like anybody can.
Coding bootcamps were only useful back in 2010 to 2015 when devs were scarce and in high demand. They are often $10 K or more for 3 months, based on a sketchy curriculum slapped together by an instructor. Many offer deferred tuition plans, which get sent to debt collectors if you don't pay. But they claim it's not debt, it's an "ISA"
You can get the same or better material from free or low cost sources (Free Code Camp, Odin Project)
There was a pretty big boom period from 2018-2021. But yeah, I’ve seen lots of bootcamp curriculum and most of it is hot garbage. Especially now because they’re bleeding money and won’t invest in it.
The Skill Foundry content is way deeper and more rigorous than the Bootcamps and you could subscribe for like 10 years before you spent as much as you would for a camp.
I AM SO GLAD I FOUND THIS VIDEO THANK YOU SO MUCH HOLY, I got off the phone with out of the EDx Advisors for their bootcamp that was sponsored by UNC and this whole time i Thought it was UNC and was seriously considering it even though my family is in poverty I was planning on working 2 jobs and try to pay for it. BUT WOW this video saved me and my family thank you so much. Im really lost right now I dont know what to do I work at Freddys as a 19 year old and just worried Im scared especially after learning the "University" I was ab to go to was a scam... SMH.
AND BTW THAT POST WAS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPEND IN MY PHONE CALL IM NOT EVEN KIDDING IT WAS VERBATUM.
You’re welcome! Be safe out there.
I’m a Hack Reactor grad from 2018 and it was already showing signs of problems then, I can only imagine it got worse
Oof, what’s your employment situation? I hope you landed on your feet in spite of any issues.
im a professional chef wanting to change job to be a software engineer but because of time and work i need to find a way to speed up the process and not to lose it all by enrolling in a bootcamp while working thus not losing my job that helps with life at the moment and try to change career and be on the safe side knowing that if i do a bootcamp i will be employed and not worry about being jobless
No learning pathway can guarantee you a job because landing a job is more than just being able to code. It sounds like you are not in a position to comfortably take risks so I would look at either online degree programs or self-paced, online courseware. With a self-pacing option if you want to go fast at a bootcamp pace you can, you just have to have the discipline to make a schedule of learning and stick to it.
Placement rates among bootcamp grads have cratered and if you do take one and are good I would still be prepared for a 6-12 month job search post camp. If that's not feasible for you then please take a different option.
Be careful, with AI the focus in software engineering is going to change over the next five years, I suspect towards more advanced skills.
Just be aware that this is only to get you started with some basics. After that learning is not over. AI will only make things more difficult to understand and verify so you will at some point be forced to learn the theoretical foundations.
He's speaks the TRUTH. Listen to the man. It's sad these companies prey on people's dreams. Glad he is making people aware
Okay I had to update. Thank you for this entire thing. I have not taken any bootcamps. I paid for codecademy for like 2 years. And I have learned. Plenty. This is absolutely disgusting.
I am at 1:49 and I absolutely love your take here. Saying if you're charging 10,000 - 20,000 a person and you can't turn a profit, 'youre a piss poor business person' XDXDXD I aboslutely loved hearing you callout the AI claim as BS immediately. MY MAN. I need to press play though and finish the video. XD
Great advice. I am 52 and looking to change career, I have some experience with java, js and python and was focusing on the js route. This has been a wake-up call that I needed to hear.
You're welcome!
With the list of skills you gave, I might recommend putting your full focus on Java and Python. Ageism is a thing in this field but less so in large, established enterprises and the contractors that serve them.
With Java being #1 in that space, I believe your odds will be better overall than JS/Front-End. Definitely research and connect with professionals in your region and get their advice as well!
Much appreciated. @@SkillFoundryIO
Most places still want a 4 year degree and don't want to take risks with someone with no prior coding experience who just graduated from a boot camp. The career counselors don't really help you find work after you've finished the course and tech companies have been laying off most of their staff making this field very competitive.
I agree did a bootcamp and they just seem to hire their own students.Cheaper than hiring tutors with real world experience. I do have an old cs degree.@@SSGoatanks
Wanted to chime in and agree about the contractor angle. I work in the SRE/Cloud space nowadays and our team just hired a fellow contractor who is probably 60. He’s been great building out a whole SDK suite in just weeks after he joined 🎉
These "for profit" bootcamps hate it when I question them and I push back because I know the quality is low. The other one to watch out for is Emeritus.
Learned self taught for a year, ended up enjoying coding so now I’m getting a B.S in CS because I found it enjoyable. I recommend others to do it this way plus you’ll always have that degree and didn’t throw thousands of dollars at a lousy bootcamp certificate. Nothing wrong with certs, just depends tbh
the problem with CS degree is you won't gain any job skills, so you'll likely have to learn those skills by yourself.
This is why I switched to IT. I want to be in the industry while I continue learning. I'm almost done with my A+. I'm not sure if I want to get any more TIA certs just yet. Perhaps Azure 900 and python. I'm on a journey but I also have to eat.
It's very common for someone to take A+/Network+, get a support role at a company, and use that income as a base for transitioning to programming. As a bonus you can also learn a lot about how networks, databases, storage, and cloud systems work which makes you a stronger developer when you get there.
@@SkillFoundryIO Thank you for your feedback! I'm going to share this with my peers! Honestly, thank you!
Bootcamp investigation is difficult. So many of them advertise high job placement and full reimbursement if no job is acquired after a certain time post graduation. There's so much fine print and a scammy approach to a lot of these, but since I'm new to the field, it's difficult to confirm things. Do you have any recommendations for good bootcamps that would be worth the money and time?
Start with some lower cost online course options and build a foundation before you spring for a bootcamp.
It’s a much less riskier approach.
@@SkillFoundryIO What's your opinion about Launch School? I heard their approach is more for mastery and slow building as opposed to the typical bootcamp model.
Their core is a similar concept to my courses, except that they focus on Ruby and JavaScript. I’m a fan of the model but not of the languages.
We just thank God for people like you who tell it as it is.
In your series, are we you going to lead us to a point where we can now create our own desktop apps and android apps on our own and beyond?
Thanks!
I’m posting basically once a week so we’re a ways out from those topics! We shall see where it goes based on the feedback.
@@SkillFoundryIO I'm all in, can't get enough of that Sharp Cheddar 🧀 😁
I really appreciated this video! When I did my own investigative research a year ago as I looked for boot camps, I came to the same conclusion about the inflated placement rates and lack of a thorough education. I already have a masters in mechanical engineering and didn't want to go back to school, eventually settling for the Launch School curriculum which is one of the "slower paced" programs you mentioned. I did love that you validated my doubt in learning Ruby for back-end, as I also had gone on Linkedin and found a severe lack of Ruby jobs and one of my concerns has been learning an outdated language. If you are familiar with the Launch School curriculum, do you think it would be good to engage in their capstone program that functions as a 3 month boot camp (once you have a year of study under your belt) and build out an app with a team for my portfolio, or spend the next 6 months learning Java, C#, or another ubiquitous language and building a project on my own in that language?
I'm not familiar with Launch School's capstone program. At a glance it looks like an ISA of 18% of your first year's salary or $18k, whichever is higher. Because the core curriculum only does Ruby or JavaScript I would probably want to add a common back end language like you identified.
Their placement rates on the capstone (unverified) are pretty solid but if they're filtering people based on performance in the core they're taking the cream of that crop so the higher placement rates make sense. My old bootcamp had a >90% placement rate as well but our admissions were very difficult- we rejected about 80% of candidates. If they're doing that type of filtering it speaks well of their program.
If you're not in a hurry, I'd say pick up one of those backend languages, you can do it at a fraction of the cost, and it doesn't stop you from going back and doing the capstone if you change your mind.
Happy Coding and Good Luck!
@@SkillFoundryIO , what was the name of your old bootcamp ?
@@SkillFoundryIOI spoke to the owner of Launch and he admitted that most of those people who got jobs after partaking in his program had degrees already. That definitely played a role for sure.
@@UnixBro It was called The Software Craftsmanship Guild. After sellling it eventually ended up as part of Wiley Education.
I just signed up for Coding Temple. Am I making a mistake? If not a complete mistake, any advice on how to succeed at getting a genuine placement after graduation? Or advice while doing the bootcamp? The draw is paid tuition if I don’t get job placement and online reviews. Many good ones, some bad ones.
In this market you are going to have to learn well and hustle. Lots of networking and ensure you go deep with your knowledge.
It’s not that you can’t get jobs out of camps but the placement rates have been sub-40% for a while now.
You said.. what i have been trying to say… for so long. And I graduated from Kenzie Academy. And now im a C# developer. Self taught. I knew they were going downhill but it took longer than I thought for them to shut down lol
It’s astonishing to me that before the university bought them they had raised like $100 million. Back in 2013 I bootstrapped my Bootcamp on less than $100K and had a greater than 90% placement rate.
I hope your career is going well though, keep learning!
@@SkillFoundryIO yep. I think things really went downhill when covid hit. They TRULY mismanaged money exactly like you said. I was there lol. They hired so many people that didn’t matter (marketing team was a part of that number) and had the audacity to FIRE teachers that did have experience for students who didnt! 😂 Amazing. However the owner (who sold to the university or gave up the company, cant remember) was a douche bag. They made
Some mistakes. They treated their REAL teachers wrong. They also lied about placement numbers. Their administration was really messed up. I knew for a fact they were going down.
Common story, there are a lot of bootcamp founders who never worked in the field. Sad.
@@SkillFoundryIO on top of everything else. I was not ready. Top of my class and still not ready. You are telling people the truth. I hope folks are listening. I cringe at all these programs marketing these outdated programs, javascript, and python. Im living it right now. I have to study everyday to just stay afloat because I was not taught correctly after $21,000
Hey,
I just got graduated high school this year in June. And right off, I joined AA (App Academy). Hoping to break into tech faster than my peers who are doing the classic 4 year bachelor route.
I fear this current, idk where it'll take me upon graduation, I'm also getting some tech certifications (AWS, Oracle, and etc on the side). But please let me know your thoughts.
I'd expect it to be rough searching in the current climate, but it will improve. Broadening your skills into AWS is a good move. Make sure your portfolio continues to develop after graduation and network, network, network! Networking is going to make or break you if you lack a degree.
Hopefully, you're not in the Ruby track! That's a rough spot even outside this job market.
I have been a software engineer for 20 years and have a master degree. You are deluding yourself.
Thanks for this! I'm 42 so another undergrad is not suitable for me. I'm very interested in ML & data science. I learned python and html/css from doing projects on youtube and zero to mastery. Is an Ml bootcamp such as Interview Kickstart worth it? I have a great total com package in my current role but would love to do something I actually enjoy. Even if it means taking a step back in pay to get into a field I love.
I'm not familiar with that bootcamp so I can't comment on them specifically. Be sure to thoroughly research the camp, talk to former students, instructors, and use tools like LinkedIn to see if you can find alumni in actual jobs.
Taking a step back financially is a personal decision. In this market I would make sure you have at least 6 months runway to be unemployed post camp. The safer route with your good paying job would be to find something part-time you can chip away at while the market recovers.
Unfortunately, Machine Learning is an area of Computer Science that there is no short cut into, your time is better spent by taking advice from people who actually an expert in the field and are being realistic about it, here you go- ua-cam.com/video/9nbh6lgFfo4/v-deo.htmlsi=JD_kdutD6dst7ugR
I would look at online adult learning courses at a university oppose to attending a bootcamp
Just be careful with university bootcamps and find out who really runs them, oftentimes it's a bootcamp provider like 2U/Trilogy.
*These things are all true.*
But there are some nuances behind it. The language you learn first doesn't matter that much. You might have a better time learning Python or Java or C# or PHP or JS. Some people want to learn UI and design systems and play different roles in the team. Python isn't the fastest way to get building HTML and CSS forms. There might be more C# jobs but does everyone want those jobs? It's going to depend on the person's goals. It's true that there are a lot of not-so-great or even _rotten_ schools. But there are a handful of great schools. They aren't all the same. The concept of a 'boot camp' isn't the problem. Some people will be better off reading books or watching videos. Some people will thrive in a time-boxed cohort-based environment. We can have all the options - as long as they are implemented well.
Thank you for your comment! I do disagree that the language you learn first doesn't matter much. As you point out "Python isn't the fastest way to get building HTML and CSS forms". Picking a first language that provides alignment to your goals makes for a more effective start to your technical journey.
This is why I give away a free getting started course on my site that compares and contrasts languages, careers, and learning pathways.
Agreed that accelerated training, or "bootcamps" isn't the problem, but the lack of regulation makes it very difficult for a non-technical consumer to evaluate the quality of programs. If you assume most of them aren't worth the money, you wouldn't be far from the truth...
@@SkillFoundryIO "Picking a first language that provides alignment to your goals" [is good]. Agreed!
I’m with a boot camp now. The program has been very intense so far. The two instructors are very talented and have plenty of experience. Only 9 students too.
Indeed we are now start working with C# along with JavaScript
Will it work out? Will I get a job down the road? Don’t know. But the curriculum has been very good so far.
That's good to hear! Not every bootcamps delivery is bad.
Now, on the business side, if you have two experienced instructors in the US, they're costing about $140k each / year (taxes, benefits, etc.), which is $23k/month just for instruction. 9 students at an average of $14k tuition. If it's an ISA they're not getting paid yet unless they sell it off to a loan company at 70 cents on the dollar. So, the total revenue is likely between $88k and $126k with $69k in expenses. Then you factor in marketing, enrollment, and overhead like space, legal, insurance, other staff, etc. the camp is probably losing money on your cohort. Which is why we see so many camps going under.
Naturally, that has nothing to do with you! So study hard and good luck my friend!
@@SkillFoundryIO
Thank you. Hope this all works out in the end.
I agree. The instructors can’t be cheap.
On the other hand. I know for sure this organization has other revenue streams. Think development for businesses
And it’s quite a small organization.
Pretty unlikely. You'll be competing against hundreds of CS grads for entry-level positions and companies will always prefer a CS degree over a bootamp
The CS degree is pretty interesting. If paired with an internship they nearly always win. However, there are a lot of substandard programs that don't teach hardly any vocational skills and don't provide internship opportunities. Those students are at a disadvantage compared to the average bootcamp grad.
It's also important to be mindful that CS doesn't necessarily mean programming, it can also be a focus on data science, networking, cyber security, embedded systems, etc. So those grads don't compete for developer jobs.
I appreciate your openness to discuss this. Have been on the fence about learning coding for future cloud jobs I would like to obtain. Thanks for pushing me away from this...almost predatory issue in the industry right now.
Yeah, the main reason they were attractive was a quick in to high demand, but the demand has dropped off so it's just not worth it right now.
@@SkillFoundryIO so what in general is your tips to starting out now? I want to learn python paired with my AWS Solutions architect Certification but very lost on where to start because of the lack of Gateways to entry level positions. Thank you!
Cloud is hard to jump right into, but it can be a lateral move with network/cloud admin which comes from support type roles. Don’t be afraid to take a longer path in this market.
Subscribed for honesty . Despite the fact you said you yourself had run a bootcamp , I do not believe you are a shill by any means . The fact you point out that c# and Java are what you want to learn if you want a job proves that to me. If you wanted attention and clicks this would have been about Python (if the whole point was not already lamenting on how front end is over saturated)
Thank you for your kind words. I left the bootcamp space for a reason.
I have a video coming up soon discussing the reality of entry level jobs in Python. Stay tuned!
I recently did a bootcamp. Most, if not all of the projects were guided. The capstone project was a follow along project, which was unacceptable.
They don’t have time to let you start from scratch.
Yet another reason why I don’t run my current courses as a bootcamp format.
Thank you so much for being honest and real, you're one of the very few.
Thank you for your kind words!
I am at the end of a bootcamp. And i agree with almost everything.
Instructors. Curriculum. And they hooked me with university name.
I learned. But it felt like independently.
Sorry to hear that. Did you end up finding employment?
@@SkillFoundryIO still got two months to go.
Start networking now!
@@SkillFoundryIO ok. I have to get over imposter syndrome.
“Still teaching Ruby to beginners.” Ruby/Ruby on Rails is still popular in the West and East coast startup scenes. Heck, I was interviewing with the NYTs because they wanted a lead Ruby on Rails dev for their cooking section.
I think we have different definitions of popular. 😊
If you are trying to get your first job in tech since boot camps are a rip off how should you go about this? I'm self taught and was heavily thinking about going through a bootcamp so my resume doesn't get thrown in the trash. I was also afraid of just this that boot camps would just take your money and give you a worthless certificate that wouldn't get you a job anyhow. So for someone in my shoes what is then the path? Everyone seems to say you don't need the CS degree. Assuming that is true what will get you to the point where you actually get interviews?
The #1 thing that gets people jobs is effective networking. Many people spray their resumes into apply now boxes and wait, which isn't a good way to get interviews, even for an experienced professional.
If you're networking effectively, have the skills, and can prove it with a portfolio and pass coding interview tests, you'll eventually find work.
Nucamp is booming in Pittsburgh but you can go to college alongside it for cheaper than a big bootcamp.
The ones that kept their costs under control are surviving.
your videos are special!! thank you!!
Thank you for watching!
The potential to scam a person is always directly proportional to the size of the carrot being dangled.
I wish the regulators would protect consumers more in things like this.
i come from a background of having bachelors in info systems and 3+ years experience as a data analyst. So with this bootcamp i'm going to take i don't think i should have any problem finding a job 🙏
That experience and education should be an advantage. Be sure to network and practice interviewing. I hope it goes great!
@@SkillFoundryIO Will do. Thank you man! Appreciate you alot!
Im stuck between tech elevator and springboard. Would you happen to have any opinions on either bootcamp? Springboard is 8000 cheaper learning javascript and python. Tech elevator focuses on Java.
Java is the top language for enterprise jobs, JavaScript is saturated, and Python isn't a great language for web developer jobs. Not sure I'd pay the tuition at TE in this market though... especially since they're under a different ownership that also owns Hack Reactor and some f-ckery has been going down there.
@@SkillFoundryIO thank you appreciate that! Springboard came out to only 7800 when i paid in full so i went with that. Even though the languages aren't great i hope to use that as a basis and learn other languages in my own time. Again appreciate you! 🙏🙏
I've been doing the Odin project. I can't recommend it enough
Yeah there’s no reason to pay bootcamp prices for front end dev content!
I know this video is supposed to be a warn for me not to go to any coding bootcamp .But I'm still hoping they will help me in some kind of way. So I'm from Vietnam and I used to go to college in Canada then I dropped out. I don't even have a job in my country .I consider myself as a newbie in tech. I'm in dire need for a job and I really like technology and algorithms. Do you think there's still some hopes for me if I go to a bootcamp in countries like Canada, Singapore,....? Thank you very much!
It depends on the local market and reputation of the camp. Do your homework!
@@SkillFoundryIO Thank you sir!
So if i want a career change and i have zero experience in coding where is the best place to start? Is there a course or place i can learn to code java or c# that will teach me enough to get my foot in the door with tech industry or do i absolutely have to get a 4year degree😢?
Having a degree of some kind is usually enough.
As far as courses there’s a lot out there, including mine at Skill Foundry. (Free sample on the site)
With zero experience do a few lower cost things first and see if you really like coding.
@@SkillFoundryIO ty! Im going to try ! I tried years ago to learn C++ on my own but i gave up because it was hard as hell lol
C++ is a tough one, you’ll find other languages easier. See my tutorials on this channel if you want to try some c#.
I, along with 25 other students graduated from a well-known bootcamp in June of last year. Not one of us has broken into tech!!! 😢
That’s awful, what stack(s) did you learn?
@@SkillFoundryIO MERN stack plus React native version of the main template project
Yeah, MERN is very oversaturated since most of the bootcamps teach it. So much competition for grads. Are you spending your time going deeper or are you trying to broaden out a bit?
@@SkillFoundryIO I agree.
Yes, I am working on finishing my BS software engineering. It's selfpaced so Im halfway done. I want to dive deep into backend programming but still deciding between java and c# (2 tracks offered by my college)
I appreciate the transparency, I am going through a coding boot camp now but well aware the outlook of getting a job right out of the gates is slim! I already have in mind I will need to learn as much as I can on my own and go back to college but I felt hey why not since uncle sam is paying for it lol
Also what advice do you have for someone who wants to break into the cloud computing industry ?
First, you'll have to pick a part of the cloud. Are you looking at security, networking, or applications?
Usually, cloud professionals upskill from one of the basic roles of security analyst, network administration, or software development. It's somewhat rare to jump directly into cloud roles at entry level. So, my advice is to build some core skills in one of those areas and start adding cloud certifications to it.
So which is the best site to look for a job? How do i find what skill stack to learn enough to get a job and be further trained on the job without being laid off?
Couple things to respond to here. First, the best places to look for a job varies by your region. It could be job boards, it could be networking, it could be directly on company sites. Try to network with professionals in your region and find out what is common locally.
Second, the best way to choose skills is to decide what you want your job role to be then research positions in the region you want to work in. In most regions you will find a cluster of skills that are more common than others.
Third, being laid off is not something you have control over so it's not something to fret about. Focus on finding work at an organization that has good mentorship and onboarding and work that evolves your skills. Then if you do find yourself dismissed, you should be better skilled than you were when you started.
I hope this helps! Happy coding!
@@SkillFoundryIO this makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much.
Sir, i want to learn python to become data analyst and I'm coming from non- technical background 2 year career gap,i know some basic knowledge of python. And now I'm frustrated to watching 8-11 hours video on freecodecam should I learn from book or video?
Yeah, a lot of people overemphasize video delivery when the reality of the field is that most documentation is written. My content philosophy is to use both video and written content where they make sense. The problem with books though is that they tend to lag behind the state of the technology because they just aren't published as fast in general as videos.
Try to find a resource that has a lot of hands-on activities and the opportunity to get feedback or join a peer learning group. Passively watching videos is generally not a good way to acquire a hard skill.
@@SkillFoundryIO thank you sir and appreciate your positive reply.
Coding Boot camps teach the easiest , least mentally taxing part of SWE. For the money they ask for they should at least teach the equivalent of 60 credits worth of SWE which should take at least a year with no breaks .
Unlucky for them that interest rates are rising and cost of borrowing is getting higher, HR for companies are now being very selective, so boot camp grads now go to the back of the line as they have the low end, least versatile skillset as opposed to a degree holder who even with a minor in SWE has substantial programming training.
So Bootcamps have to either step up and provide a more complete education at least equivalent to a minor or 30 credits worth of training in SWE to make their asking prices worth it or they will go out of business.
Great point. If you think about time/depth for the tuition that 20 students pay they could have me and another experienced developer as their personal trainers full time for a year!
If you see a bootcamp at a University - LOOK TO SEE WHO IS ACTUALLY DELIVERING THE BOOTCAMP!
Absolutely, and if it’s 2U you should consider other options. They might literally go bankrupt.
A career change seems very dim for me, I feel stuck.
What habits are you engaging in that are keeping you stuck?
@SkillFoundryIO the habit of fear, habit of endless searching, habit of doubting myself,
This is why the best boot camps place you in a job. they also have competitive entry, you basically need 6 months self taught
I'm actually not aware of any bootcamps that actually place you in a job. Some have career fairs (like colleges), but most of the big ones just give you some information on how to execute a job search and leave you to it.
Competitive entry is one of the signs of a better run camp. I probably should do a video with tips on how to research a camp.
Hire-Train-Deploy programs like Revature do pay you to learn and generally place you, but those come with restrictions, like you have to take their job.
Coding bootcamp can be better than the last one but they will never give you the proper engineering education that a degree will give you. Based from own experience
The days of surface level skills are behind us. Bootcamps won’t be able to survive.
The thumbnail doesn't do the video justice, I almost didn't click on it.
I feel that, I’m still trying to find my stride on thumbnails.
I appreciate this.
Thank you!
You should yearly have a reminder short or something, just highlighting these facts for the average person. Seriously Man. ::I liked my own comment. Because I hope it gets seen XD
If a few more go bankrupt I may not have to…
coding bootcamps are awesome! if they are totally free of charge. Almost any other situation they are not awesome
There are some hire-train-deploy programs that will pay you to go through a bootcamp.
You have to sign away 1-2 years of your life though…
The music is hilarious
I'll let my editor know. =)
Also why is the rise of AI a bunch of crap?
It’s not that AI is crap, it’s going to be a useful tool. But closing an education program because of AI is crap because it’s not like they’re shuttering degree or other programs because of AI.
Yes, I've been playing with LLMs quite a bit to see if they're suitable to be a TA, they're just not there yet. Too many mistakes, hallucinations, and because they lack context into where you are as a learner they also tend to show you things you're not ready for.
I do think that eventually they'll be a good partner in learning, but they'll still need to be directed by someone who knows what they're doing!
I'd advice not getting into software development at all.
Historically, we have increased the productivity of developers, exponentially, and every time we do so, the world demands more software.
Whenever people say “but this time things will be different”, I get very skeptical.
great video.
Thank you!
Off topic, but the girl on the right at 16:27 - XD
Unfortunately she was the only one in her graduating class to not find employment in her field… 😝
Hahaha, aww
Very detailed analysis
Thank you!
No they are not worth it and they will not survive
Beware: 50% Cancellation Fee
Nuscam
Hard to believe that is legal.
They got $1200 for 6 weeks.
They firehose self teaching until you fall behind then accuse you of cheating to piss you off and quit.
Boot camps are cheaper on average and faster than traditional four year degree programs even though they don't give you a degree. However, the folly here is assuming that a traditional degree will afford a better education. The horror stories from college grads are endless when it comes to learning to code. If you think lack of regulation is bad for bootcamps, look at well-regulated colleges and their curriculum. Most graduates know 4-5 languages very superficially, have never worked with Git, have no idea how to work with package managers, and have no skills with any other relevant technologies that employers want. I don't have all the answers, but I will never understand how colleges get a free pass while boot camps get all the scrutiny. Did we not just gloss over how the OPM agreements allow Trilogy/2u/Edx to borrow university names in the first place?
True. See my video on the gaps in college degrees for my observations and criticism of higher education, as well as tips for how to close those gaps. I agree it's unfortunate that someone paying higher education prices doesn't get more vocational training to go along with the theory. I will say that scrutiny of colleges is increasing as the tuition price has inflated, so hopefully, change is coming!
I think one of the main considerations for someone without a degree considering bootcamp vs. college is that even if the college experience ends up not being ideal, a degree still has value in the market. If you go to a bad BootCamp, you're not only unemployed, but the bootcamp certificate has no value.