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Arguing "atheism supported by science" MUST IMMEDIATELY invoke quantum physics. "Anyone whom says they understand quantum mechanics, doesn't understand quantum mechanics"--Richard Feynman. That DOESN'T mean it's anything you want it to be (atheism's only redoubt). Not only can QM NOT violate conservation laws, but elementally it must be immediately confronted by a universe of absolute cold ('nothing"). Singularity isn't only all of the things it's known for, it's also infinitesimally evanescent. Backing 13.78 billion years is indisputable as THE science of chronicling the universe's history. SUDDENLY, absent ALL physical support, you're not allowed to "back" before singularity. WITH VERY GOOD REASON!! You IMMEDIATELY run face-first into "1st LAW": NOTHING allows for an infinitely hot singularity to derive from less then infinite heat ...which cannot exist other than as infinitely brief. NOTHING will allow QM to circumvent conservation laws....BUT IT'S IMMATERIAL! Prior to singularity, no argument not in violation of thermodynamics allows for "heat"(energy). Absent "heat" there is NO universe. So QM's limitations as regards conservation are moot; QM along with all physics exists in a non-heat universe ONLY as theory. No agonized torturing of QM does other than make fools of "new atheism". Leaving you with ONLY your self-deluded, self-declared superiority. And THAT'S OF COURSE THE SINE QUA NON OF ALL OF "SCIENTIFIC ATHEISM". BWAHAHAHAHA....HOWL!!!
As a Christian I find this video very helpful and not the hate of most other Atheist channels towards religion in general and definitely Christianity being their #1 target.
I'll never understand how people will accept that we are in a simulation created by an advanced civilization that we can't see or contact. But believing in a God that created reality, that's impossible.
You guys are literally the British and American versions of each other 😂. It’s like watching two people from alternate universes meeting. Similar but different.
Totally agree with Drew on how powerful it is just to show someone you have different values, and yet are still a moral, compassionate person. I remember an interaction I had like that when I was still a Christian that planted a seed of doubt. I was talking with a gay guy, and I don't remember any of the arguments he made, but I remember I was so struck by how he didn't fit into the hostile anti-Christian/anti-conservative archetype I'd been made to expect. It was life-changing not because of anything he said, but because of who he was and how he respected me.
Well said. Since the election of Donald Trump, one of my personal goals has been to have understanding and compassion for those with whom I disagree. ☮🕊
Great conversation. I especially liked the part where Drew said that the best way to plant doubt is to show the other person that you are also a compassionate human being. I liked that one a lot.
Well, that depends. Some will say that no matter what an unbeliever does, they are still horrible people. Simply by the fact that you reject God and so that wont do much for them. But then again whatever else could convince those people then🤷♂️
As a Christian with many atheist and agnostic friends, I love this conversation. It might sound weird, but I Watch videos from both of these guy's channels because I love hearing what other people's point of view is.
@@oxlyyt7758 I would recommend you Sören Kierkegaard, he was the first of the existentialists. One of the most brilliant Christian authors and a universalist like myself. Books of his include fear and trembling, either or, and the sickness unto death. He might be incredibly pessimistic but he does so in a very funny manner. I feel like he's one of the ultimate challenges to The atheist mindset a real iconoclast that inspired later secularists that maintained his existentialism philosophy. He's also the author that coined the word angst. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard
I'm french, so I have to listen it in slow-motion to understand and it's like they are high, that's very funny :') Thank you for sharing this interview, I really loved it. I also was christian and recently became atheist, and that's helpful to hear people who did the same. As a french it's hard to imagine how difficult it is to turn to atheism on the US. I'm glad to live on a secular country. Support from France
@@glof2553 *"The difference is that atheists acting morally is arbitrary according to their own ideolog"* Nope. Wrong as usual. Definition of "arbitrary": *"based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system"* We act morally because we use reason and evidence in making our decisions. Nothing random about it. Of course, your other big problem is that god beliefs are entirely subjective, since there is no evidence for such things. Your "moral guidance" is based upon the ancient writings of human beings. Naturally, they got some things right and some things wrong, just as we'd expect. And if you want to call insisting on reason and evidence *"ideology"* go right ahead. ;-) Game. Set. Match. When will you guys ever learn?
@@chikkipop Why do atheist always talk about their own moral keepings as if it's a badge of honor. In the final analysis all your moral law keepings still place you in the box of death. That's your trajectory. Who ultimately cares and why does it matter ultimately if God doesn't exists? It doesn't. The sun will die and the world with it and so will all history. The end. Morality is built upon God's character. We are moral creatures because there is a Creator. You have to dance around that and come up with some silly idea that reason causes morality (In a godless universe both of those things are subjective). You guys are philosophical reconstructionist. You experience the effects of God and have to reconstruct those things based on a fallen and faulty worldview, when you have no basis or grounding for why morality is or why it really exists or why it is truly important other than some pragmatic notion. You worldview begins with random causation and ends in death and you are FULL of reason in the middle...your end caps are weak like a dam on both sides of a lake that are about to collapse and be washed out. Or like a twinkie, you want to talk about the sweat cream of reason in the middle and not your spongie shell...its all unhealthy and bad for you. It all ends nowhere and oblivion. Jesus changes that faulty paradigm as he holds the weight of authority.
I love both of you guys, from the bottom of my heart. I don't have friends that would talk about philosophy, religion or critical thinking, watching you two evolving as people and as thinkers makes up for that lack of live conversation I have. Thank you so so much, Alex and Drew
This is probably the best conversation between two atheists I’ve witnessed. A very low-stakes, contemplative, and real environment. I feel like the topics discussed were a lot more relevant and less hollow than many atheist conversations I’ve heard. The time went by so fast!
@@zinzincoetzee1934 Agnoatic atheists. They both identify as atheists, commonly calling themselves “atheist activists/commentators”, but technically they’re agnostic atheists.
@@gearaddictclimber2524 Drew has stated multiple times that he's agnostic. He made it clear that he goes by atheist because people where he's from tend to think agnostics are fence sitting on whether the christian god is real. Saying hes an atheist gets his point across more clearly. As for Alex, I cant really say
@@zinzincoetzee1934 Exactly, that’s why I said agnostic atheist: each label on its own is inadequate to very precisely explain their position, thus the contention to push for precision of language in my comment.
What a great combo, really enjoyed watching the two of you interact. I have to agree, my atheism has progressed, but I've moved from an initial "live and let live" to "I actively believe that normalizing having unsubstantiated beliefs is bad for society" and theism is still doing it. I've become more angry at theism (not theists!), but far more understanding and empathetic to how people arrived at the theistic beliefs they have. That doesn't mean that it's harmless to walk around with those. Consider how many people are constantly scammed because they incorrectly believed the other side was being truthful. I don't think that one can reasonably claim that theism helps people to avoid being scammed. But skepticism does.
Maybe but be ready to drop it like a hot potatoe once it doesn't work for you, no matter the belief(including skepticism). If your not too keen on dropping it don't give yourself a reason to. In so far as helping people us concerned to quote James Burnham, Suicide of the West (1964; New York: Encounter Books, 2014) "All ideologies at every stage in their careers distorts reality in some degree. But in its youth and prime a major ideology remain closely enough in touch with the social world from which it had sprung to permit it to inspire and guide effective and sometimes creative action" say what you will about his views and point about liberalism but this one statement rings true regardless. Sure some ideologies sprial into la la land at a faster rate than others. but it is because it was meant to deal with a different problem than that of today, which is mostly concerned with mobilizing or governing the community to get shit done. and ontop of that each regions has different needs and most importantly its people are more responsive to different stimulus. As opposed to today's more connected economy shared knowledge via internet and education etc... In our world sexual selection(placing emphasis on the individual) is the dominant factor in our strategies for survival in the past it was more darwinian(which is more concerned with the survival of the group ). So in this world of abundance where everyone has a greater incentive to lie their ass off to gain the advatage (especially in the dating scene), yes skepticism or atleast mitagated skepticism, stoicism, pragmatism etc... is helpful. As oppossed to the harsh world of the past (and soon to be future) where theres an non-negotiable need for trust and unwavering action ,though theism may not be necessary but you can be sure its subsitute will be treated both as law and a moral imperative,(and we all know what insanity follows when something abstract is made both moral and lawful ) and the only difference will be that instead of having ideas of old we know are unhinged, we will have new ideas we don't yet know are unhinged until we find out.
That's an interesting take 🤔 it's one of the disagreements I had with Hitchens in that he was an anti-theist, and a militant one at that it seemed some times. I feel like I see some benefits to theism (specially with my grandma, whose faith got her through some horrific parts of her life), but like you say, it's as if having a theistic point of view makes you more prone to getting scammed.
@@theoneandonly3388 the thing with that is that, like they said at some point of the conversation, some people are genuinely harmed and even traumatized thanks to religion, so there is no way to quantity this.
Right, but there is a point that they went over that confronts what you said to a degree. Which is the comparison of religion to politics. And the haze of confusion that can exist on responsibility in that domain. Because religion is a part of our evolution. It's exists because it was beneficiary for our beleif structures as a species. To say you are against religion would be to say you are against the prison system or exploitive agriculture. Theism is just a medium for modes of thought. And we are just now starting to realize we can organize more efficient and more practical modes of thought that aren't necessarily religious. Theism is just this thing that happens to be because of how we happened to evolve
Honestly, The biggest reasons both of these channels are so awesome are: 1) They welcome both theist and atheist viewers without judgement. 2) Both are very open to considering all views and actively seek to reach out, respect, and understand others' points of view before addressing them.
Yeah I love the fact that they’re both so rigorous and yet humble at the same time. It’s quite inspiring. So much of the popular dialogue around the god question is just apologists and counter-apologists trying to “one up” each other rhetorically and bully people into accepting their outlook as being obviously true.
still convinced it’s the same person. if they’re British, then great American accent! and if American, great British accent! in all seriousness, I really enjoyed this. I have enjoyed the content over the last few years since I found both channels
Ancient atheist here, since studying religion 70 years ago. Fascinating to hear fresh ideas from these thoughtful, intelligent young men. Thank you, I must think more; though happily settled in my "belief" a very long time. :-) Much Spiritual nourishment from my credo: Vissi d'arte, vissi d'amore, Quindi un uomo felice ... Tops - people and music.
@LM Thank you for your concern. If you get personal benefit from your beliefs, well and good. But if you propose nonsense, that is dangerous, and can lead to Taliban/Evangelical harm to decent societies. I know it's fruitless, but I beg you to stop spreading harmful fantasies.
@LM no, you don't, all you want to do is prophet your beliefs to others with no regard or compassion for what they're saying, what do you think that's going to accomplish?
Yes, finally it happened! The collaboration I've been hoping to see one day. So great to hear two intelligent young guys reflect on their own atheism. A wonderful conversation.
This was such an insightful and mature discussion from two of the best UA-camrs on this subject area. It's rare I can sit through an hour long vid without being distracted away. I've certainly felt like a militant/angry atheist in the past, whose right it was to tell people why they were wrong with a pointed finger. I now realise I'm fine with people believing what they want to believe, as long as they are not harming themselves, or others, with what they believe. I'm more than happy to discuss my beliefs with others, but I tend to leave it up to them if that's something they want to engage in. I would consider myself a positive atheist, but leaving a small percentage of agnosticism in more of a deist construct of God, because we probably can never really know. And like Drew, I find the historical/societal aspect and context to religions one of the most interesting/convincing areas now, and certainly strengthens why I do not believe in any of the organised religions. If people have never checked out Mythvision podcast on UA-cam, I'd definitely recommend it as Derek has such interesting guests and topics of discussion.
You did a great job at interviewing here. The questions were well structured and the way you engaged with Drew's answers and managed to let the conversation flow was really admirable.
not that it detracts from this brilliant talk at all, but I just realized how much you've done at your age. If No one else has said it yet, I'm proud of you dude. You are a compassionate and thoughtful and insightful force for good in the world.
The "they're the same person" jokes are funny, and I understand the feeling behind it. There are strong similarities between the two of you, and all of them are great qualities. I'm glad to have such excellent representatives.
I've enjoyed listening to both of your channels for a couple years now since I deconverted from religion, and I can really appreciate the evolution of both of your guys' views in that time. Both of you are willing to take a look at and even give credit to religion in a way that I've seen very few other atheist youtubers doing, as well as be open when your views have changed and for what reason. Both of your content has helped me tremendously with developing my understanding of religion, as well as with having any religious conversations with my family, for which I have to thank you both.
Very good conversation. I appreciate the shoutout with respect to theistic arguments and personal experience discussion. I very much agree with Cosmic Skeptic that personal experience arguments can be incredibly convincing for the individual who had the experience, and are a reasonable standard for justifying one's own position, but due to their nature of not being transferable, it's unreasonable to expect one's own personal experience to be just as convincing to another person. One's testimony can only go so far to someone who has not had a similar experience. And another issue shows up when accepting another's personal experience comes entailed with the denial of one's own personal experience, such as a conversation that might exist in which a Christian attempts to convert a Polytheist by an appeal to a personal experience. The Polytheist may have their own personal experiences that allow for the Christian's personal experience to be explained by the multiplicity of the divine, but the Polytheist's personal experience becomes a problem for the Christian's interpretation of the singular divine.
As an atheist I have had several personal experiences - through meditation and also one healing experience with a non contact healer - that I have no explanation for. I have no way of knowing if the experiences that led other people to be theists are similar to mine or not - and it may be just a case of different interpretations. So - no matter how convinced a theist is by an experience - it can have no bearing on my disbelief in god. I know people who have had experiences and become born again Christians - and lost faith.
Personal experience is still anecdotal evidence, though, even if it's your own anecdotes. The human mind is too prone to error to trust on these matters. NDEs can be very convincing to those who have them, but we know that they're essentially just dreams generated in the brain, for instance. Getting someone to abandon their irrationally high confidence in their own experiences, which obviously become remembered as more and more dramatic over time due to the fallibility of human memory, is a monumental task. It's the same reasoning that ties people to pseudoscience like faith healing, anthrosophic medicine, hypnotism, etc. It's wrong, but it's hard to combat.
@LM Im 57 in good health. I did not want to find myself taking multiple boosters for the rest of my life so let my immune system deal with it. If I die - I die. I caught covid once - it was a mild case.
I love both of you guys so much and you've both been so helpful in my deconstruction journey😊 As an xjw I just wanted to weigh in on the short convo about talking to a jw on a plane around 36:00 and the best way to handle it. Drew got it exactly right, and please follow his advice🙏 Don't act overly interested or they'll think they can convert you, but don't come at them in a frontal attack bc they will completely shut down and stop listening to you. But if you are kind and friendly, interested in them as a person, sympathetic, push back gently on some of the rhetoric in a way that might make them think... That will do more than anything else. In the organization we are taught that the "world" ie: all non-jws, lies in the power of the wicked one, or Satan. And that inside our religion is the only safe place to be and jws are the only truly happy people. And that's why God commands us to preach, to bring more people into the true religion out of the wicked world so they can find true happiness. I know it sounds insane but I promise you, Jehovah's Witnesses absolutely believe all this. So if you are kind to them and show them that a "worldly" person can be happy and fulfilled, it puts a tiny chink in that "only jws are happy" shit. Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.
Thanks Alex for this conversation. I'm a Christian (and vegan 😉) and really appreciate your integrity/honesty/intellectual rigour, in the way you present your thoughts/position. 👍
Thank you so much - -you have become a real treasure in my life. Your thoughtfulness and Claire are astounding. Just an FYI - - I am a Roman Catholic priest in San Francisco and I'm a member of the polished fathers religious community that promotes religious diversity. It's what my life has been about flu last almost 50 years. I thoroughly enjoy your contact way you present it I just wanted to say thank you very very much.
"Is religion harmful? " in my understanding it is because it fosters shame, guilt and fear in a person and controls a person's life through those emotions i'm against organized religions, but see little harm in having people believe in their own definition of a theistic God, preferably in a one which fosters kindness, acceptance, understanding and forgiveness
I cannot articulate just how wonderful this discussion was for me. I have always respected GMskeptic, but I definitely appreciate and respect him so much more and I didn’t think that was possible. I appreciate the bit about atheistic extremism because I feel like I sometimes fall under that. He has inspired me to go about my atheism from a kind and understanding place. I’ve been working on being a nicer atheist because I know people I love like my brother, need to believe in God just get day to day. Without God and prayer my brother falls into deep depression. I think that’s many people. I appreciate both these guys very much!!
Both of you guys' channels are quite refreshing for me, having witnessed the evolution of "AtheismTube," so to speak. TAA really lost me when he started ragging on feminists, Thunder the same way. Both of you stick to the issues and ideas without being vitriolic, and with Drew especially, I appreciate his gentle, compassionate approach. Curiosity over ambition. I've got a whole lot of "atheist content" bottled up that I've been wanting to turn into content here, and I'm not sure when I'll be ready/able to do that, but both of your channels are great inspiration.
Oh screw off. Every video has a billion comments going "By the way, I disagree but I still enjoyed it. I'm clever and open minded". You're opinion isn't special cause you're a Christian. I
@LM What kind of Christian are you? Do you think gay people should not be able to get married, adopt and enjoy civil liberties on the same line as straight couples or?
Your good faith is inspiring to me even now that I've been an atheist for a decade, and I wish I could have had your channel when I started doubting rather than the hostility of the atheist culture at the time
Loved this conversation! I agree with both of you on so much. in my opinion the biggest drawback of atheism is the tendency towards nihilism, for me at least; I grew up strongly religious and when I left Catholicism I felt like my life had no meaning anymore if I couldn’t believe in God or heaven. The day I lost my belief I wrote in my journal that I didn’t want to be an atheist and I felt like “an empty void has opened in my soul.” It’s gotten better since then as I’ve started to find meaning outside of religion but I think suddenly losing a worldview you had for your entire life can lead to an acute sense of loss
Why feel like there has to be this tendency towards nihilism? Think about it for a little while. If I tell you I'll give you a million dollars and then you come to realize for whatever reason that you don't believe there ever were any million dollars, have you actually lost anything? If people tell you you're sick just to provide you the cure what have you lost when you realize you were never sick to begin with? There are so many things in this world to pour yourself into, to assign meaning, and the cool thing is you get to decide what's important to you. That's not nihilism it's simply realism. You were handed the red pill (beliefs are not a choice after all) and the matrix was pulled away, but it was never real anyway. I have heard many people tell of that sense of loss and I can't really get it since I've never actually believe but from what I hear it's not something to be waved away. The good thing is that I've also heard that the sense of loss diminishes until you can hardly remember why it was there. Some people who have been heavily indoctrinated suffer trauma so severe that efforts have been made to have it classed in the DSM (religious trauma syndrome it's called if I recall correctly). I hope that isn't your experience and that you'll find your way to a new truer normal. Ever considered humanism and what that has to offer in terms of values and community by the way? There's no beliefs, no dogma, basicly only one core principle to be honest and one you probably already aspouse. Might be something for you.
@LM if you're talking to me then yes. I work in geriatrics and not doing so would be incredibly irresponsible given that I've had a lot of patients die from covid.
@@GirlSmotheredToDeath Thanks for the praise I'm simply doing what everyone else in my profession is doing though so I'd say it's just the bare minimum rational course of action for anyone who wishes to "first do no harm".
@@GirlSmotheredToDeath You asked if I'm a nurse before and I'm not. I'm a nurse's assistant working night shifts so I get delegated nurse tasks. I'm the guy that makes sure people don't have to die alone or in pain or discomfort. when covid first came around we simply couldn't handle that many dying people at the same time. It was an insane gauntlet of rolling around oxygenators which a nurse had basicly stolen for us out of pity. Trying to keep people as comfortable as we could as they evacuated themselves over and over and slowly suffocated, often with tremendous full body aches. Those aches we couldn't relieve either due to morphine and analogues being breathing depressant (it would likely kill them). We tried everything else but at some point we made the call to do that anyway in the worst cases where people would become consious and just scream endlessly untill they passed out again and only get worse for 2 weeks or so. I got covid caring for those people and I asked to be allowed to stay because we had no staff left but wasn't allowed to. In hindsight I couldn't have worked anyway, got way too sick. I share one of my memories of covid (yeah there's more, too much more,) to point out how absurd it is that a close friend of mine for 30 years believes that covid is a hoax, that the vaccines make you magnetic and all the rest of it. And this is also why I appreciate those words you said more than you can imagine.
That’s awesome! I don’t know either. 73 years old and no magic ring that I’ve ever found. It’s not like I haven’t been looking. Great conversation. I live in an extremely conservative part Arizona. It is a retirement community. It’s a lot of snowbirds from the upper East Coast in Midwest. I’m from Washington state originally. I just tell them what I feel. I’m not threatening and very upfront. Usually, nothing else is said. There are a multitude of churches in the small community and it is very volunteer oriented. They do a lot of good stuff so I just leave it alone, unless accosted. I had one individual approach me and I just said no thank you. He decided to follow me and ask me why. I simply told him I will not be a slave to your God or anyone else’s. There were a lot of people around. That slowed him down a touch. And I went on with my day. It was a family event at a park. But I certainly don’t go off unprovoked if I hear something about religion. No matter how delusional I think they may be. Kind of like politics yes?
I appreciate that both Alex and Drew are so diplomatic in their approach to religious people, but I can't help but think that their discarding of antitheism is at least partly informed by privilege. I know that in the case of Drew in particular, religious trauma is something that he has experienced but experiencing it as a straight man in a liberal democratic society has undoubtedly made it easier for even him to see religiosity and theism as a true neutral. As a queer person who is still actively suffering from the harm resulting from others' religious practice, I find it very difficult to relinquish the idea that at least the capacity for dogmatic faith is a categorical negative. To avoid making a purely emotional argument here, I think I'd love to provide some solid reasons why there were certain things said during the conversation that just didn't sit well with me (no disrespect to Alex and Drew here, love their work). 1) I have no doubt that some beliefs predicated on faith can be a net positive in very narrow contexts. If astrology provides some people with entertainment and comfort, I have a hard time taking issue with that even if I find it silly. The problem arises when faith-based thinking can't be neatly contained to things like astrology which don't have any major negative impacts. There's a reason folks who genuinely believe in astrology are also more likely to be anti-vaxxers and think crystals have healing properties, faith-based beliefs that genuinely can and have caused harm. Faith based thinking can and does bleed into the realm of the harmful from the realm of the harmless all the time. I observe this even among highly educated, liberal Christians (and atheists for that matter) who are pro-choice and don't hate queer people. 2) It rubbed me the wrong way just a little when Drew spoke about how mental health and happiness isn't predicated on introspection or individual enlightenment and is instead more dependent on relationships with people (and not necessarily because I disagree with that statement). Two reasons: First, relationships with a community or people aren't as accessible to a lot of folks (queer people for example). Second, I feel like inherent in his statement is the assumption that the point of introspection and personal enlightenment is to enhance individual happiness. As a utilitarian, I have a very hard time justifying a frame of mind that prioritizes one's own mental health and/or lack of suffering over one's negative impact on the world. Would I have been happier being born heterosexual and staying in Christianity and the Christian community to this day? Possibly. But I would choose the life of supposed unhappiness or diminished happiness I am currently living every time over that hypothetical Christian life, precisely because emerging from faith based thinking has helped me draw conclusions that have greatly limited the harm I do in the world. I'm a trans ally, I care about the plight of the Palestinian people, I'm a vegetarian who thinks human supremacy/speciesm is unjustifiable, I'm a genuine proponent of gender equality, etc. The agonizing introspection I had to engage in to live with myself made me a better person in my estimation and I don't think I'm necessarily a bad person for thinking more religious people ought to go through that process even if it makes them less happy/healthy individually. Just as we would judge someone for not financially assisting a homeless person on the brink of starving to death by buying them a sandwich, I think it's reasonable to judge somebody who wouldn't enact the mental and emotional labor to improve the way they relate to the world around them, just because it would make them slightly better off mentally (as opposed to financially in the previous example). I'll just end by saying that I'm open to being persuaded out of my soft antitheism. Maybe theism/faith can be a situational positive in a lot of cases (if a Jain or Hindu who is no longer convinced of reincarnation starts eating meat as a result, it'd be difficult for me to say that their theism didn't have a net positive effect, although again, it's hard to draw boundaries around faith-based thinking and limit it to positive or neutral manifestations). I'll also end by saying that I'm aware that atheism isn't inherently virtuous and that atheists aren't even immune to religious thinking (most atheists I've met don't even realize that their deep belief in say, human rights, is socially constructed and requires a rather large leap of faith). I'm just saying that I think there are more religious people than one might think who remain in their theism not because they're convinced by its truth or its net positive effect on the world, but just because it does in fact make them happier and they see that as a higher priority than some higher ethical duty they might have to their fellow sentient creatures. I do think it's weird and a bit unhinged to pretend like this is exclusive to religious people (arguing for veganism within atheist circles has thoroughly disillusioned me to that way of thinking), but I am comfortable in saying that calling out that kind of dereliction of duty is a good thing and that I want to continue doing so. I would encourage Alex and Drew to continue doing so too, albeit more diplomatically than I probably could. lol. I don't think I would have this perspective if I was heterosexual. I think if I was privileged in enough ways, I'd also be tempted to take a hyper-individualist perspective on theism's negative or positive impacts (Does accepting Pascal's Wager work for you? vs. Does accepting Pascal's Wager work better for everyone?). Also, yes, I realize that utilitarian ethics and moral realism in general requires a leap of faith as well, and I'm happy to admit it. I actually really respect liberal religious folks who at least admit that their theism is epistemologically problematic just like I respect moral realists who admit the same thing about their beliefs. It's the ones who can't admit this and are therefore pretty immune to empathy and change who really scare me. UPDATE: ^Wrote this at the 35 minute mark, and having listened to the whole podcast now, I'm actually really happy with what Drew then says in the way of caveats afterwards (even if you make the leap to theism a la Pascal's Wager, don't cut yourself off from challenges and outside influences due to the risk that you hurt others with your insularity, etc.). Alex's example of meeting a Jehovah's Witness on a plane and thinking of ways to sow doubt about their harmful beliefs was illuminating. I think that's what was missing from the discussion for me, up to that point. I will say, it still makes me queasy when somebody say, accepts Pascal's Wager or otherwise comes to religion for the sake of their own mental health (things you believe out of desperation are rarely open to change and do tend to foster harmful insularity and close-mindedness). But to those who continue to to engage with others and continue to modify (or even occasionally discard) even their most sacred beliefs to prevent harm, even at the cost of some of their own happiness, I say sure. Have at it. Be an open-minded theist (rare in my experience, but not non-existent)
I'm of the belief that religion is built almost entirely upon people who depend upon it. And that by extension, providing _better_ support to these people than what their faith can offer is the surest and most efficient way to diminish religion. The closer we get to a guarantee that transitioning away will make one's life better, the more people will go through with it. As far as I can assume, this philosophy closely resembles Drew's. Granted I'm also a privileged straight guy so I'm liable to miss some of your points by way of them not resonating with me.
@@conexionneuronal8820 It is kinda funny how a Christian could watch these channels and completely ignore any scientific fact that is presented and still stay Christian.
I love both of you guys so much. You have both helped me guide through an intellectual deconstruction of my Christian faith during my time at an evangelical university, so seeing you together just makes my heart jump.
I see Disinterest. Im sorry to see many not much interest in being Updated, let alone fighting-back against Extremism. I fear not many people even watched the video 'Marjorie Taylor Greene Has DEEPLY Disturbing Views'.
Alex and Drew, Love you guys and all you do to promote kindly, communicative, and well thought out atheism. I try to keep everything that has ever touched me and is part of everything human beings go through as an active part of my thinking'-feeling-living complex, akin to Walt Whitman's poetic enterprise. A net sum joyous Hegelian synthesis. Well that's enough name dropping. I left Catholicism when I was 16 but had been an atheist for 3 years before that. I wasn't going to leave the church until I made a thorough study of it (and boy is there a LOT) So front row seats at church (to the chagrin of my younger brother) and I was already an avid reader. I followed the mass closely, read the Bible, Catechism, along with all the science, math, philosophy, literature, classical music, gourmet world cookery and languages I was absorbing, as well as other religions. I hope you guys are happy and thriving and synthesizing 😁 As you ex-fundamentalists can imagine my favorite bible verse is 'All things work together for the good for those who love...... now it says the Lord but the Lord is Love so those who love, love. By the way besides the various atheist groups there are nice religious folk, Quakers, Unitarians, or even the Unity Church if you want some NO PRESSURE Churchy services. I remember at the Unity church service in Avery Fischer hall the 'preacher' said, god loves a cheerful giver so give as much (to the collection plate) as it makes you happy to give. It made me smile. I wish you guys all the best on your journey, be happy and have some fun, a friend and fellow traveller JIM Oaxaca
The Problem... i see with this video here is that they are both the overly-polite Kind of A-UA-camr. What about harsher or even no-sugarcoat-Guys like Aron Ra? ?
The difference between "politics is bad" and "religion is bad" is that it is nearly impossible to run a society without politics; If it's an evil, it's a necessary evil. Whatever merits one could grant to religion, you can't claim it's evils are necessary. Societies can do without religion, not politics.
Doesnt necessarily have to be true. We yet have no evidence of any society without religion. It may be necessary to have a society but we just don't yet know exactly how.
for many though, religion is a necessity; morally-speaking, psychologically too. religion has also done much good for the world, like politics. both aren't necessarily good nor evil.
@@john.premose I have studied at a University level and there is enough nuance here to appreciate. Philosophy doesnt always have to go deeper and sometimes in doing so goes wrong.
The Problem... i see with this video here is that they are both the overly-polite Kind of A-UA-camr. Yes, Polite is a positive word, no doubt, but you cant have Balance with inviting very-similar Dudes. What about harsher or even no-sugarcoat-Guys like Aron Ra? He has a Position that not many A-Channel hold: That Religion is so inherently flawed it'd be better to not have it.
@@nenmaster5218 I think there's room for "polite" atheism. The world is full of anti-theists. These two cats are extremely intelligent and that "politeness" might be an inviting and refreshing thing for many theists. "Catch more flies with honey than vinegar"
Drew is probably the first atheist on YT I followed. He makes me want to be a more compassionate atheist. I’ve moved away from him somewhat to folks like Matt, Alex and RR. We need both types of atheists like Drew and Aron Ra. If you live in the US and deal with fundamentalists, you may understand they are not passive or polite. They are dangerous.
I feel that it’s important to have growth philosophically. When people leave religion they look for a substitute at first before finding their personal truth. It’s good that you built a community for people.
true, especially as a homosexual person l feel like you can thinking about you want christianity to be real or not is a privilege already, for me is like asking me as a chicken you want KFC to be real or not, like why in the world i want it to be real?
Oh my God are you guys the same person? Comment for the algorithm. Thank you for the thoughtful conversation. I'm an agnostic, basically atheist and I find alot of atheist content a bit toxic sometimes. I really enjoy both of you guys attitude toward the issue and how you articulate your points. Thank you both for the work and thought you've put into your channels.
I'm glad they acknowledged the existence of TJ Kirk at the very beginning. He was a surprisingly big influence in early UA-cam, and he likely introduced many concepts related to religion/altheism, philosophy, and morality to many people... despite his controversial presentation and generally edgy personality.
The Problem... i see with this video here is that they are both the overly-polite Kind of A-UA-camr. Yes, Polite is a positive word, no doubt, but you cant have Balance with inviting very-similar Dudes. What about harsher or even no-sugarcoat-Guys like Aron Ra? He has a Position that not many A-Channel hold: That Religion is so inherently flawed it'd be better to not have it.
@nenmaster5218 I presume it is specifically their intention to only host polite debates since their aim seems to be to get theists onboard with questioning their beliefs. I personally find it hysterical that some people are unable to engage with ideas just because of the way they are presented and must receive them on a silver platter, i.e., by a ridiculously inoffensive and polite speaker, but such is the reality of it.
@@hareecionelson5875 You do not have to answer, but I am curious about the experience as an ex-Muslim compared to mine of an ex-Christian. What was it like, socially, to deconvert? And do you live in the US where most people would not care, or do you live in the Middle East or Africa?
@@JNB0723 Being in the UK, we're usually pretty secular (perhaps more so than the US). My dad is a convert anyway, and my mum is more of a theist, but her family are muslim. My gran links everything back to religion, so I just nod and go along with it.
So glad to see these content creators that Ive loved for years come together and talk about how they continue to grow and evolve. Thats a big part of why I still watch both of your videos... well, not "religiously" but you get the idea.
"It's not depression" Actually, that kind of sensation is very common in depression. I also think it's funny that nihilism is always depicted as this depressing emptiness. When I first learned the term, I was told it merely meant the belief that there is no inherent meaning. Like, this wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Whether or not this causes despair and apathy or not wasn't a necessary part of the definition. But more often than not I see it used in a way that includes those aspects as part of the definition.
I don't like making the word "depression" so vague that you can call yourself depressed because of a slight feeling of detachment from life. Depression has always been an extremely heavy word, it should stay that way imo. When I use "depression", I'm talking about a little personal hell, not a place of indifference. (And no, I think I've never experienced depression. Luckily, I've experienced very little sadness in my life.)
@@tacitozetticci9308 that's fair enough. I was more trying to say that it could be depression. Not that it has to be. That feeling of apathy is only a small part of what depression is, but it is part of it. Or I guess part of some depressions? I don't know enough about it to say that it's part of all depressipns, but it definitely can be.
Nihilism is a truth proposition. How people choose to deal with it is ultimately up to them. It's like saying, "I don't like ice cream. Therefore, there is no such thing as ice cream". How we feel about something says nothing about its truth proposition.
It’s amazing to me that these two helped shape my understanding fresh out of deconversion, yet somehow we have differing conclusions and ideas only a year or two later.
@@DarkMatter1919 nope, I just appreciate Alex’s journey and intellectual honesty. And Drew’s to a lesser degree just because I’m less familiar with his content.
@@DarkMatter1919 Ditto: don't need the B S of the" I don't see any evidence for God " of M. D. Type debate excuses of the anti theist, new atheists. These two are much more honest and willing to discuss God without the vitriol of Aron Ra and others. BTW Dark matter/ Energy is probably ( more likely) going to point to an intelligent first cause than unintelligent random processes of the Big Bang theory. But we definitely need more data since science has many gaps to its materialism only view of creation also. You need Faith to believe its only random processes from our current knowledge of the Universe. As Fine-tuning suggests the Universe is much more designed than we thought in the past. Biases are on both sides of this issue : but as science leans more it will jettison the incoherent theories of supposedly facts they once believed in. But unlike atheists who won't admit their Biases , these are mine until more evidence takes them from a minority view to more of a mainstream view.
I love the idea that people can have differing views about life and its meaning and can still listen to each other and acknowledge each other's growth.
I'm so happy you guys are together in a video!!!!! yesssss!!!!!! edit: I dreamed last night that cosmic skeptic read this comment out loud in his video and we became freinds
As an antheist and a nihilist, that whole discription CosmicSkeptic gave of someone just kind of following their desires, while seeing through morality and hapiness, hit right on the mark.
"someone...following their desires, while seeing through morality and hapiness" Then you should be able to see through desire as well, and perhaps you can see through your seeing through.
This was sooo friggin good! I want more, especially when Alex pushed Drew on the spiritual nihilism, could've pushed a lot more! Thanks for an excellent vid
Wow. Muslim academic here. This was a great conversation and amazing to see how far Alex has come along - and I mean that in a totally non-condescending way. I have problems with dogmatic theists & dogmatic atheists. So it’s nice to see this.
As you tune into philosophy you begin to realise that questions are the safe haven and answers are the danger area. This explains why Drew appears to be on the back foot while Alex looks in charge posing all the questions. This was obviously the agreed format. It's taken a long time but religion is learning this now, starting to put their own answers on the back burner and coming up with their own questions. It's a defense mechanism but even so can lead to self questioning which can only be a good thing imo.
And they also both speak different languages. Alex is very focused on the philosophical and spiritual, while Drew likes the psychological and anthropological. They did very good all things considered.
I’m not an atheist. I’ve been a Christian pretty much all my life. I am really impressed with Alex questions, really playing “Gods advocate”, so to speak, highlighting what you might call the existential dark side of atheism. Indeed it’s these kinds of questions and the replies I feel I would have to give if I were an atheist m, that serve as one of the primary sustaining causes of my Christianity. Props to you Alex. Really enjoyed this conversation.
The only religion humanity needs is 'Be Kind'. Compassion is found in nearly all religious traditions, including those that predate Christianity. There is nothing particularly unique about Jesus' teachings.
I really appreciate the nuance you both bring to this kind of conversation. Thanks so much for sharing your experience and knowledge and being willing to deal with whatever criticism may be hurled your way.
Alex, I just want to say, you're an EXCEPTIONAL interviewer. You should pursue this format more often! I'm sure you could invite high level theists and atheists on to have more great discussions like this!
When talking to theists I've found it helpful to separate gods into the multi-omni, perfect, loving type, and the indifferent, non-omni, uncaring, deistic type. I'm a philosophical atheist for the first, and agnostic for the second. Another way to separate would be "gods represented by known religions" and "gods not represented by known religions" though these categories are fuzzy.
The more specific the God, the easier it can be falsified. Like, of course I can't know for certain whether there exists some imperceptible entity outside of space and time who simply doesn't reveal himself. Such an entity would be impossible, by definition, to prove or disprove. Am I agnostic about unicorns as well? Or leprechauns? I feel like disbelief is perfectly reasonable default position.
@@JD-wu5pf what evidence do you have for your default position: if you are limited by our knowledge of the Universe and how it came into Existence. Seems irrational to make a statement that God / gods cannot exist if people in the past had good reasons to Believe that they do exist : some wrote while others had oral traditions of their gods in every culture on Earth. To think these people were ignorant is ignorance if you look the pyimimids or Gobeki tepe site of 100 ton stones cut moved and used for buildings. Science doesn't yet know how they did this.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Occam's Razor states that "Plurality must never be posited without necessity." We have natural explanations for all observable phenomena. Nothing can be explained by supernatural entities, so they aren't necessary. If they aren't necessary, why believe they exist? Further, since we have natural explanations for all observable phenomena, should the supernatural exist, they must either never alter the natural world or must only ever alter the natural world in accordance with natural explanations. So what's the simpler explanation? That the natural world explains all observable phenomena? Or that the natural world explains all observable phenomena because an omnipresent yet imperceptible supernatural being wills it so? Which is more likely of a reason for why my pen fell? Gravity? Or because a mischievous imperceptible imp caused the spacetime to warp in exact accordance with all of our previous measurements, which caused gravity make my pen fall?
@@davidjanbaz7728 Also...what? We absolutely know how the pyramids were built lol. Slave labor. Like a ton of it. It took me 30 seconds of googling to find an article explaining in great detail how the blocks were moved and placed.
I remember as a child pretending to believe because my mom wanted me to believe but the more my mom put pressure on me to believe the more I thought "People only believe because they are told to believe and not because it is actually true."
The question of "What if an atheist dove back into religion in the hopes of believing it again, even if they're aware that they are essentially fooling themselves" It reminded me quite a lot of the character Cypher from The Matrix. Cypher managed to escape the Matrix, but years later he laments, "Why oh why didn't I take the Blue Pill?" He misses the comfort of being in the Matrix, despite knowing that's it's artificial, and he grows weary of the war against the machines and of the harshness of the real world. But then he finds an opportunity to go back and, notably, forget everything that happened after he took the Red Pill. In this way, Cypher rationalizes, it doesn't matter what he does to his crewmates and to Zion, because he won't remember any of his responsibility. Cypher is made out to be a villain, of course, but his motivations are fascinating. As he puts it, "Ignorance Is Bliss."
This is not coincidence as The Matrix has heavy religious undertones. Cypher reflects Judas, but at the same time shows exactly what you said: he knows it’s not real but would rather live the lie. Just like many theists today. Drew struggled with this. He wanted the community, but knew it was not real.
Hi Alex and Drew, I am a Christian and I really appreciate your honest and humble approach to these questions. And I am really happy to hear a sympathetic view towards those that have a religious belief. I love you both. I would encourage anyone who feels there must be something more to life, keep seeking the truth in humility. Who do you believe Jesus Christ is and why?
I appreciate the tact, but having heard their positions, have you considered that many atheists have spent their whole lives with all the same doubts and questions Christians have, and have settled in naturalistic and/or philosophical 'truths' that do not mandate any god (least of them the Christian god)? And, answering your question, as I grow older and study more about the topic, I'm less and less inclined to believe that the Bible Jesus has ever existed. I think he is an amalgam of various real and fictional people and characters that is a good 'face' for the Bible. As for 'why', there is a lot of research being done about the subject, so there's some literature for anyone interested over there.
@@SouthernMenace hi Marcelo 👋. I appreciate your response. I like that you are studying about this topic. The thing that comes to mind as I read your comment is: I hope that you keep in mind that no matter how intelligent or how much a human studies, no one believes the exact things. We perceive things differently, have biases, different life experiences that shape the way we understand things. But there can only be one truth. When we humble ourselves before God and admit that we cannot know better than him and we cannot know or understand him without his help, in my opinion, it invites him to guide us and helps us find him when we seek him with a humble approach. And maybe you already approach it this way. Thanks for reading.
@@sarahpfeuffer1396 Hi Sarah, I hope you don't mind me interjecting. But in my opinion my biggest issue with Christianity, is that I don't think it makes sense to me. I can accept there is a God, but the way the bible portrays YHWH seems illogical and immoral to me. I hope this isn't rude, but why should I trust the bible? There are some historical things that are accurate enough, but that doesn't mean everything portrayed in it was accurate, either. Again hope this doesn't feel like I'm attacking you. But I hope you can shed some light.
@@thomaswest4033 Hi Thomas, 👋 you don't seem rude at all! You are very respectful! And I appreciate you sharing your opinion. May I ask you a question or two: if God is a just God and he sees fit to bring justice to those that deserve it, do you think we will always be able to understand his perspective or understand it, considering we don't have all of the details and knowledge of the situation? How can we have a clear enough perception to judge the decisions that God makes if the accounts in the Bible are true? And I understand it would be difficult to make sense of it. I certainly don't understand all of the things God does and why. Do you find there are things in the Christian faith that you are drawn to?
@@sarahpfeuffer1396Thanks Sarah, much appreciated. I understand that I might not be able to understand God. But I think some understanding would be better to draw me in. I think some things are nice. Some Christian philosophy is interesting, and I think the fact that God chose to manifest himself as a poor humble man is very unique to their faith that is compelling... Apart from that, I can't say anything in particular draws me towards it.
I am not a christian anymore, but have been for almost 40 years. The groups I was part of over the years didn't all see hell the same way. Many thought of it as something only really bad people went to. Just those that would not turn even if they were pressed to the very breaking point. Mostly christians (at least here in the Netherlands) believe that everybody gets a fair chance.
@@OmniversalInsect even if someone did exactly x amount of hurting. And if hell gives x amount of suffering it's still evil. Any sane person would just forgive. What's the point of giving suffering to someone who can't change their past. Any kind person as God will show us hell but won't actually put u in.
Don't submit to a faith on the basis of a niche denomination. All a True Christian should do is read the Bible and practice according to his understanding and interpretation. Not rely on the skewed human doctrines of a church.
@@OmniversalInsect God knows everything, so god knows that that person will never believe in him, therefore god gives him infinite hell for "infinite" sin.
love seeing you guys back together again. I had just found CosmicSkeptic right before you guys first collab, and I was one of the early member's of Drew's community, and I have very much kept up with both of you over the years. Love to see how you both have grown, and my views have grown along. Also, I would love to see you two interact with Ocean Keltoi. I think that would be an amazing conversation. Peace and love guys!
Remember that every episode of the Cosmic Skeptic podcast is available on Spotify and iTunes for your streaming convenience! Subscribing there and leaving a review helps wonderfully in expanding the podcast. Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-cosmic-skeptic-podcast/id1458675168#episodeGuid=487ed436-c662-4511-bae5-e3ad63d36a39
Arguing "atheism supported by science" MUST IMMEDIATELY invoke
quantum physics. "Anyone whom says they understand quantum mechanics,
doesn't understand quantum mechanics"--Richard Feynman. That DOESN'T
mean it's anything you want it to be (atheism's only redoubt). Not only can
QM NOT violate conservation laws, but elementally it must be immediately
confronted by a universe of absolute cold ('nothing"). Singularity isn't only
all of the things it's known for, it's also infinitesimally evanescent. Backing 13.78 billion years is indisputable as THE science of chronicling the universe's history. SUDDENLY,
absent ALL physical support, you're not allowed to "back" before singularity.
WITH VERY GOOD REASON!! You IMMEDIATELY run face-first into "1st LAW":
NOTHING allows for an infinitely hot singularity to derive from less then infinite
heat ...which cannot exist other than as infinitely brief.
NOTHING will allow QM to circumvent conservation laws....BUT IT'S IMMATERIAL!
Prior to singularity, no argument not in violation of thermodynamics allows for
"heat"(energy). Absent "heat" there is NO universe. So QM's limitations as regards
conservation are moot; QM along with all physics exists in a non-heat universe ONLY as theory. No agonized torturing of QM does other than make fools of "new atheism".
Leaving you with ONLY your self-deluded, self-declared superiority. And THAT'S
OF COURSE THE SINE QUA NON OF ALL OF "SCIENTIFIC ATHEISM".
BWAHAHAHAHA....HOWL!!!
As a Christian I find this video very helpful and not the hate of most other Atheist channels towards religion in general and definitely Christianity being their #1 target.
I'll never understand how people will accept that we are in a simulation created by an advanced civilization that we can't see or contact.
But believing in a God that created reality, that's impossible.
@@WayneLynch69 Did you just have a stroke?
@@WayneLynch69, how hot is “INFINITELY-HOT”? 🥵
You guys are literally the British and American versions of each other 😂. It’s like watching two people from alternate universes meeting. Similar but different.
Which one is the bizaro ?
It’s like a Morty moment tbh 😂
I thought they're one person
@@redbitch3362 I thought they were the same for almost 2 weeks
@@jared_really cosmic because Bri'ish
Totally agree with Drew on how powerful it is just to show someone you have different values, and yet are still a moral, compassionate person. I remember an interaction I had like that when I was still a Christian that planted a seed of doubt. I was talking with a gay guy, and I don't remember any of the arguments he made, but I remember I was so struck by how he didn't fit into the hostile anti-Christian/anti-conservative archetype I'd been made to expect. It was life-changing not because of anything he said, but because of who he was and how he respected me.
Well said. Since the election of Donald Trump, one of my personal goals has been to have understanding and compassion for those with whom I disagree. ☮🕊
@@TheXaminedLife based
@@2FadeMusic Thanks for the reply, but I don't understand "based."
@@LawrenceMeiselit's a way to say "cool opinion" or "nice opinion" or "nice action" or anything of the sort
Take it as a praise
@@AnAverageItalianGood to know. Thanks.
Great conversation. I especially liked the part where Drew said that the best way to plant doubt is to show the other person that you are also a compassionate human being. I liked that one a lot.
Why tf is your comment 9h old?!
@@justus4684 magic👌
Well, that depends. Some will say that no matter what an unbeliever does, they are still horrible people. Simply by the fact that you reject God and so that wont do much for them. But then again whatever else could convince those people then🤷♂️
@@justus4684 He must be a patron of Alex. Patrons get early access to videos.
Why would that plant doubt? That's a fallacy of thinking logically.
As a Christian with many atheist and agnostic friends, I love this conversation. It might sound weird, but I Watch videos from both of these guy's channels because I love hearing what other people's point of view is.
Oooooooohhhh Athiest here, I've been trying to get into Christian media recently, any recommendations?
@@oxlyyt7758 I would recommend you Sören Kierkegaard, he was the first of the existentialists.
One of the most brilliant Christian authors and a universalist like myself.
Books of his include fear and trembling, either or, and the sickness unto death.
He might be incredibly pessimistic but he does so in a very funny manner.
I feel like he's one of the ultimate challenges to The atheist mindset a real iconoclast that inspired later secularists that maintained his existentialism philosophy.
He's also the author that coined the word angst.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard
@@TheEverFreeKing appreciate it! 🙏
Happy to see that you are seeing both side, May God bless you 🙏🏻
Awesome idea. Are you still following thos world view?
I'm french, so I have to listen it in slow-motion to understand and it's like they are high, that's very funny :')
Thank you for sharing this interview, I really loved it. I also was christian and recently became atheist, and that's helpful to hear people who did the same. As a french it's hard to imagine how difficult it is to turn to atheism on the US. I'm glad to live on a secular country. Support from France
I’m high and slowed it down and now it feels like i’m chillin with the homies.
@LM how is that related ?
But yeah he probably did, like 90% of french population.
@LM how is that related ?
French...
@LM I have had two COVID vaccinations and two boosters.
One ultimate mash up. Been waiting for you two to make a collaboration. I would definitely like to see more videos of you both making collaboration.
@AnimatedPlace then it's the ultimate mashup coming back again to being us some high quality discussion.
Excellent 🏵🍵🍾🧙♂️👍
@LM How about U? Do Botz need the zhot ?
"The biggest seed of doubt you can possibly plant in someone's mind is to show that you can be moral as well." That's a great one to remember.
Nah.
The difference is that atheists acting morally is arbitrary according to their own ideology (and yes, it is an ideology, it is not a "lack")
@@glof2553 *"The difference is that atheists acting morally is arbitrary according to their own ideolog"*
Nope. Wrong as usual.
Definition of "arbitrary": *"based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system"*
We act morally because we use reason and evidence in making our decisions. Nothing random about it. Of course, your other big problem is that god beliefs are entirely subjective, since there is no evidence for such things. Your "moral guidance" is based upon the ancient writings of human beings. Naturally, they got some things right and some things wrong, just as we'd expect.
And if you want to call insisting on reason and evidence *"ideology"* go right ahead. ;-)
Game. Set. Match. When will you guys ever learn?
Yes! That's absolutely the quote I took away from this.
@@chikkipop Why do atheist always talk about their own moral keepings as if it's a badge of honor.
In the final analysis all your moral law keepings still place you in the box of death. That's your trajectory. Who ultimately cares and why does it matter ultimately if God doesn't exists? It doesn't. The sun will die and the world with it and so will all history. The end.
Morality is built upon God's character. We are moral creatures because there is a Creator. You have to dance around that and come up with some silly idea that reason causes morality (In a godless universe both of those things are subjective). You guys are philosophical reconstructionist. You experience the effects of God and have to reconstruct those things based on a fallen and faulty worldview, when you have no basis or grounding for why morality is or why it really exists or why it is truly important other than some pragmatic notion.
You worldview begins with random causation and ends in death and you are FULL of reason in the middle...your end caps are weak like a dam on both sides of a lake that are about to collapse and be washed out. Or like a twinkie, you want to talk about the sweat cream of reason in the middle and not your spongie shell...its all unhealthy and bad for you. It all ends nowhere and oblivion. Jesus changes that faulty paradigm as he holds the weight of authority.
I love both of you guys, from the bottom of my heart. I don't have friends that would talk about philosophy, religion or critical thinking, watching you two evolving as people and as thinkers makes up for that lack of live conversation I have. Thank you so so much, Alex and Drew
I'm in the same situation here. So relieving to at least HEAR discussion
Same here.
Yeah, same. Hopefully I get some friend whom I could talk about philosophy to in my new school
" I don't have friends that would talk about philosophy, religion or critical thinking" Get new friends mate.
How similar our situation is lol
It's unfair
As a former Christian fundamentalist I enjoy both of your channels. Both of your approaches to an emotional subject is excellent.
This is probably the best conversation between two atheists I’ve witnessed. A very low-stakes, contemplative, and real environment. I feel like the topics discussed were a lot more relevant and less hollow than many atheist conversations I’ve heard. The time went by so fast!
Yeah i half expected them to show with fidoras and have a big, fat "God's not real" powow, laughing smugly all the way, but this was rather pleasent.
Didnt both of them say they were agnostic? I know for certain Drew is agnostic tho.
@@zinzincoetzee1934 Agnoatic atheists. They both identify as atheists, commonly calling themselves “atheist activists/commentators”, but technically they’re agnostic atheists.
@@gearaddictclimber2524 Drew has stated multiple times that he's agnostic. He made it clear that he goes by atheist because people where he's from tend to think agnostics are fence sitting on whether the christian god is real. Saying hes an atheist gets his point across more clearly. As for Alex, I cant really say
@@zinzincoetzee1934 Exactly, that’s why I said agnostic atheist: each label on its own is inadequate to very precisely explain their position, thus the contention to push for precision of language in my comment.
What a great combo, really enjoyed watching the two of you interact. I have to agree, my atheism has progressed, but I've moved from an initial "live and let live" to "I actively believe that normalizing having unsubstantiated beliefs is bad for society" and theism is still doing it.
I've become more angry at theism (not theists!), but far more understanding and empathetic to how people arrived at the theistic beliefs they have. That doesn't mean that it's harmless to walk around with those. Consider how many people are constantly scammed because they incorrectly believed the other side was being truthful.
I don't think that one can reasonably claim that theism helps people to avoid being scammed. But skepticism does.
Maybe but be ready to drop it like a hot potatoe once it doesn't work for you, no matter the belief(including skepticism).
If your not too keen on dropping it don't give yourself a reason to.
In so far as helping people us concerned to quote
James Burnham, Suicide of the West (1964; New York: Encounter Books, 2014)
"All ideologies at every stage in their careers distorts reality in some degree. But in its youth and prime a major ideology remain closely
enough in touch with the social world from which it had sprung to permit it to inspire and guide effective and sometimes creative action"
say what you will about his views and point about liberalism but this one statement rings true regardless. Sure some ideologies sprial into la la land at a faster rate than others. but it is because it was meant to deal with a different problem than that of today, which is mostly concerned with mobilizing or governing the community to get shit done. and ontop of that each regions has different needs and most importantly its people are more responsive to different stimulus. As opposed to today's more connected economy shared knowledge via internet and education etc... In our world sexual selection(placing emphasis on the individual) is the dominant factor in our strategies for survival in the past it was more darwinian(which is more concerned with the survival of the group ).
So in this world of abundance where everyone has a greater incentive to lie their ass off to gain the advatage (especially in the dating scene), yes skepticism or atleast mitagated skepticism, stoicism, pragmatism etc... is helpful. As oppossed to the harsh world of the past (and soon to be future) where theres an non-negotiable need for trust and unwavering action ,though theism may not be necessary but you can be sure its subsitute will be treated both as law and a moral imperative,(and we all know what insanity follows when something abstract is made both moral and lawful ) and the only difference will be that instead of having ideas of old we know are unhinged, we will have new ideas we don't yet know are unhinged until we find out.
That's an interesting take 🤔 it's one of the disagreements I had with Hitchens in that he was an anti-theist, and a militant one at that it seemed some times. I feel like I see some benefits to theism (specially with my grandma, whose faith got her through some horrific parts of her life), but like you say, it's as if having a theistic point of view makes you more prone to getting scammed.
@@theoneandonly3388 the thing with that is that, like they said at some point of the conversation, some people are genuinely harmed and even traumatized thanks to religion, so there is no way to quantity this.
Right, but there is a point that they went over that confronts what you said to a degree.
Which is the comparison of religion to politics. And the haze of confusion that can exist on responsibility in that domain.
Because religion is a part of our evolution. It's exists because it was beneficiary for our beleif structures as a species.
To say you are against religion would be to say you are against the prison system or exploitive agriculture.
Theism is just a medium for modes of thought. And we are just now starting to realize we can organize more efficient and more practical modes of thought that aren't necessarily religious.
Theism is just this thing that happens to be because of how we happened to evolve
@@luciferpyro4057 Skepticism is not an ideology.
Honestly, The biggest reasons both of these channels are so awesome are:
1) They welcome both theist and atheist viewers without judgement.
2) Both are very open to considering all views and actively seek to reach out, respect, and understand others' points of view before addressing them.
Yeah I love the fact that they’re both so rigorous and yet humble at the same time. It’s quite inspiring. So much of the popular dialogue around the god question is just apologists and counter-apologists trying to “one up” each other rhetorically and bully people into accepting their outlook as being obviously true.
@@mil401 Excellent comments. Thanks
I remember about 4-5 years ago, Drew posted on Reddit about his new channel and I immediately subbed. Look how far you've come!!! WOOT WOOT
@LM has your mom?
@LM nope she died 4 years ago, pre-COVID. What’s the goal of your question? I am happy to engage
@LM May I ask why you are so interested
still convinced it’s the same person. if they’re British, then great American accent! and if American, great British accent! in all seriousness, I really enjoyed this. I have enjoyed the content over the last few years since I found both channels
In philosophical parlance: Two counterparts for the price of one actualized world.
I'm terribly sorry.
Ancient atheist here, since studying religion 70 years ago.
Fascinating to hear fresh ideas from these thoughtful, intelligent young men.
Thank you, I must think more; though happily settled in my "belief" a very long time. :-)
Much Spiritual nourishment from my credo:
Vissi d'arte, vissi d'amore,
Quindi un uomo felice ...
Tops - people and music.
@LM Four. 🙂Caught Covid after 3, Positive twice, had a very slight "cold" In the top range for the vulnerable. Maybe dead without?
@LM ???
@LM Thank you for your concern. If you get personal benefit from your beliefs, well and good. But if you propose nonsense, that is dangerous, and can lead to Taliban/Evangelical harm to decent societies. I know it's fruitless, but I beg you to stop spreading harmful fantasies.
@LM do you even listen to other people?
@LM no, you don't, all you want to do is prophet your beliefs to others with no regard or compassion for what they're saying, what do you think that's going to accomplish?
My two favorite Athiests!! Love you guys! Congrats Drew! Glad to see you achieve such success.
It's so nice to see you two together
🤨🤨🤨🤨
@Parkour Extreme Lol (but yes, I know :) )
Yes, finally it happened! The collaboration I've been hoping to see one day. So great to hear two intelligent young guys reflect on their own atheism. A wonderful conversation.
You are both very mature thinking intellectuals and great representatives of the atheist community.
Notwithstanding the "atheist" label, I also find "both very mature thinking intellectuals..."
@LM
Your mom's had a covid vaccine
Both of you have been so helpful in my deconstruction. So cool to see two titans meeting.
This was such an insightful and mature discussion from two of the best UA-camrs on this subject area. It's rare I can sit through an hour long vid without being distracted away.
I've certainly felt like a militant/angry atheist in the past, whose right it was to tell people why they were wrong with a pointed finger. I now realise I'm fine with people believing what they want to believe, as long as they are not harming themselves, or others, with what they believe. I'm more than happy to discuss my beliefs with others, but I tend to leave it up to them if that's something they want to engage in. I would consider myself a positive atheist, but leaving a small percentage of agnosticism in more of a deist construct of God, because we probably can never really know.
And like Drew, I find the historical/societal aspect and context to religions one of the most interesting/convincing areas now, and certainly strengthens why I do not believe in any of the organised religions. If people have never checked out Mythvision podcast on UA-cam, I'd definitely recommend it as Derek has such interesting guests and topics of discussion.
You did a great job at interviewing here. The questions were well structured and the way you engaged with Drew's answers and managed to let the conversation flow was really admirable.
not that it detracts from this brilliant talk at all, but I just realized how much you've done at your age. If No one else has said it yet, I'm proud of you dude. You are a compassionate and thoughtful and insightful force for good in the world.
do you really need to give him the "dude"? Lol
"I'm proud of you" sounds perfect to me
The "they're the same person" jokes are funny, and I understand the feeling behind it. There are strong similarities between the two of you, and all of them are great qualities. I'm glad to have such excellent representatives.
Like Laurence Fishburne and Samuel L. Jackson. Or Ben Stiller and Adam Sandler. 😉
@@ronthered138 Elaborate.
@@stevencurtis7157 They look similar and make the same kind of movies
I've enjoyed listening to both of your channels for a couple years now since I deconverted from religion, and I can really appreciate the evolution of both of your guys' views in that time. Both of you are willing to take a look at and even give credit to religion in a way that I've seen very few other atheist youtubers doing, as well as be open when your views have changed and for what reason. Both of your content has helped me tremendously with developing my understanding of religion, as well as with having any religious conversations with my family, for which I have to thank you both.
Yes
I've been watching both of your channels for years. It's cool to see how much you both have grown and how your perspective has changed.
Very good conversation. I appreciate the shoutout with respect to theistic arguments and personal experience discussion. I very much agree with Cosmic Skeptic that personal experience arguments can be incredibly convincing for the individual who had the experience, and are a reasonable standard for justifying one's own position, but due to their nature of not being transferable, it's unreasonable to expect one's own personal experience to be just as convincing to another person. One's testimony can only go so far to someone who has not had a similar experience. And another issue shows up when accepting another's personal experience comes entailed with the denial of one's own personal experience, such as a conversation that might exist in which a Christian attempts to convert a Polytheist by an appeal to a personal experience. The Polytheist may have their own personal experiences that allow for the Christian's personal experience to be explained by the multiplicity of the divine, but the Polytheist's personal experience becomes a problem for the Christian's interpretation of the singular divine.
As an atheist I have had several personal experiences - through meditation and also one healing experience with a non contact healer - that I have no explanation for. I have no way of knowing if the experiences that led other people to be theists are similar to mine or not - and it may be just a case of different interpretations. So - no matter how convinced a theist is by an experience - it can have no bearing on my disbelief in god. I know people who have had experiences and become born again Christians - and lost faith.
Personal experience is still anecdotal evidence, though, even if it's your own anecdotes. The human mind is too prone to error to trust on these matters. NDEs can be very convincing to those who have them, but we know that they're essentially just dreams generated in the brain, for instance.
Getting someone to abandon their irrationally high confidence in their own experiences, which obviously become remembered as more and more dramatic over time due to the fallibility of human memory, is a monumental task.
It's the same reasoning that ties people to pseudoscience like faith healing, anthrosophic medicine, hypnotism, etc. It's wrong, but it's hard to combat.
@LM Not me - why?
@LM Im 57 in good health. I did not want to find myself taking multiple boosters for the rest of my life so let my immune system deal with it. If I die - I die. I caught covid once - it was a mild case.
@LM Yes - I tested many times - I only tested positive while I had symptomatic covid. I would test again if I get any symptoms.
I love both of you guys so much and you've both been so helpful in my deconstruction journey😊 As an xjw I just wanted to weigh in on the short convo about talking to a jw on a plane around 36:00 and the best way to handle it. Drew got it exactly right, and please follow his advice🙏 Don't act overly interested or they'll think they can convert you, but don't come at them in a frontal attack bc they will completely shut down and stop listening to you. But if you are kind and friendly, interested in them as a person, sympathetic, push back gently on some of the rhetoric in a way that might make them think... That will do more than anything else. In the organization we are taught that the "world" ie: all non-jws, lies in the power of the wicked one, or Satan. And that inside our religion is the only safe place to be and jws are the only truly happy people. And that's why God commands us to preach, to bring more people into the true religion out of the wicked world so they can find true happiness. I know it sounds insane but I promise you, Jehovah's Witnesses absolutely believe all this. So if you are kind to them and show them that a "worldly" person can be happy and fulfilled, it puts a tiny chink in that "only jws are happy" shit. Thank you for coming to my tedtalk.
Thanks Alex for this conversation. I'm a Christian (and vegan 😉) and really appreciate your integrity/honesty/intellectual rigour, in the way you present your thoughts/position. 👍
Shoutout to my fellow vegan! :)
Thank you so much - -you have become a real treasure in my life. Your thoughtfulness and Claire are astounding. Just an FYI - - I am a Roman Catholic priest in San Francisco and I'm a member of the polished fathers religious community that promotes religious diversity. It's what my life has been about flu last almost 50 years. I thoroughly enjoy your contact way you present it I just wanted to say thank you very very much.
It takea a lot of effort to have a conversation with yourself, and edit it as if you're talking to another person. Kudos 👏
Really appreciate this collaboration as I follow both Alex and Drew.
"Is religion harmful? " in my understanding it is because it fosters shame, guilt and fear in a person and controls a person's life through those emotions
i'm against organized religions, but see little harm in having people believe in their own definition of a theistic God, preferably in a one which fosters kindness, acceptance, understanding and forgiveness
I dont know how you could go on twitter and convince yourself that the world needs LESS shame
@@Wilkins325 i don't know how you could say something like that with that profile picture
@@FruityHachi Its a random fish character? How degenerate.
@@Wilkins325 looks cringe
but if you’re under 10 than it’s alright I guess
I cannot articulate just how wonderful this discussion was for me. I have always respected GMskeptic, but I definitely appreciate and respect him so much more and I didn’t think that was possible. I appreciate the bit about atheistic extremism because I feel like I sometimes fall under that. He has inspired me to go about my atheism from a kind and understanding place. I’ve been working on being a nicer atheist because I know people I love like my brother, need to believe in God just get day to day. Without God and prayer my brother falls into deep depression. I think that’s many people. I appreciate both these guys very much!!
Both of you guys' channels are quite refreshing for me, having witnessed the evolution of "AtheismTube," so to speak. TAA really lost me when he started ragging on feminists, Thunder the same way. Both of you stick to the issues and ideas without being vitriolic, and with Drew especially, I appreciate his gentle, compassionate approach. Curiosity over ambition. I've got a whole lot of "atheist content" bottled up that I've been wanting to turn into content here, and I'm not sure when I'll be ready/able to do that, but both of your channels are great inspiration.
I like Drew and Alex, but I like atheist youtubers who kinda take the piss out of people for shits and giggles, like Logicked.
@@irish_deconstruction I'm all for taking the piss out of creationists. It's when they set their sights on "SJWs" that I noped out.
Oh yeah my fav UA-camrs, British Drew and American Alex
GJELP
As a Christian, I really enjoyed watching this exchange.
Oh screw off. Every video has a billion comments going "By the way, I disagree but I still enjoyed it. I'm clever and open minded". You're opinion isn't special cause you're a Christian. I
Cheers from an agnostic...
As a Christian I did myself as well!
@LM What kind of Christian are you? Do you think gay people should not be able to get married, adopt and enjoy civil liberties on the same line as straight couples or?
@LM When you answer my questions I'll answer yours.
Your good faith is inspiring to me even now that I've been an atheist for a decade, and I wish I could have had your channel when I started doubting rather than the hostility of the atheist culture at the time
Loved this conversation! I agree with both of you on so much.
in my opinion the biggest drawback of atheism is the tendency towards nihilism, for me at least; I grew up strongly religious and when I left Catholicism I felt like my life had no meaning anymore if I couldn’t believe in God or heaven. The day I lost my belief I wrote in my journal that I didn’t want to be an atheist and I felt like “an empty void has opened in my soul.” It’s gotten better since then as I’ve started to find meaning outside of religion but I think suddenly losing a worldview you had for your entire life can lead to an acute sense of loss
Why feel like there has to be this tendency towards nihilism? Think about it for a little while. If I tell you I'll give you a million dollars and then you come to realize for whatever reason that you don't believe there ever were any million dollars, have you actually lost anything? If people tell you you're sick just to provide you the cure what have you lost when you realize you were never sick to begin with?
There are so many things in this world to pour yourself into, to assign meaning, and the cool thing is you get to decide what's important to you. That's not nihilism it's simply realism. You were handed the red pill (beliefs are not a choice after all) and the matrix was pulled away, but it was never real anyway.
I have heard many people tell of that sense of loss and I can't really get it since I've never actually believe but from what I hear it's not something to be waved away. The good thing is that I've also heard that the sense of loss diminishes until you can hardly remember why it was there. Some people who have been heavily indoctrinated suffer trauma so severe that efforts have been made to have it classed in the DSM (religious trauma syndrome it's called if I recall correctly). I hope that isn't your experience and that you'll find your way to a new truer normal.
Ever considered humanism and what that has to offer in terms of values and community by the way? There's no beliefs, no dogma, basicly only one core principle to be honest and one you probably already aspouse. Might be something for you.
@LM if you're talking to me then yes. I work in geriatrics and not doing so would be incredibly irresponsible given that I've had a lot of patients die from covid.
@@mugogrog As a physician, thank you for doing that!
@@GirlSmotheredToDeath Thanks for the praise I'm simply doing what everyone else in my profession is doing though so I'd say it's just the bare minimum rational course of action for anyone who wishes to "first do no harm".
@@GirlSmotheredToDeath You asked if I'm a nurse before and I'm not. I'm a nurse's assistant working night shifts so I get delegated nurse tasks.
I'm the guy that makes sure people don't have to die alone or in pain or discomfort.
when covid first came around we simply couldn't handle that many dying people at the same time. It was an insane gauntlet of rolling around oxygenators which a nurse had basicly stolen for us out of pity. Trying to keep people as comfortable as we could as they evacuated themselves over and over and slowly suffocated, often with tremendous full body aches. Those aches we couldn't relieve either due to morphine and analogues being breathing depressant (it would likely kill them). We tried everything else but at some point we made the call to do that anyway in the worst cases where people would become consious and just scream endlessly untill they passed out again and only get worse for 2 weeks or so.
I got covid caring for those people and I asked to be allowed to stay because we had no staff left but wasn't allowed to. In hindsight I couldn't have worked anyway, got way too sick.
I share one of my memories of covid (yeah there's more, too much more,) to point out how absurd it is that a close friend of mine for 30 years believes that covid is a hoax, that the vaccines make you magnetic and all the rest of it. And this is also why I appreciate those words you said more than you can imagine.
That’s awesome! I don’t know either. 73 years old and no magic ring that I’ve ever found. It’s not like I haven’t been looking. Great conversation. I live in an extremely conservative part Arizona. It is a retirement community. It’s a lot of snowbirds from the upper East Coast in Midwest. I’m from Washington state originally. I just tell them what I feel. I’m not threatening and very upfront. Usually, nothing else is said. There are a multitude of churches in the small community and it is very volunteer oriented. They do a lot of good stuff so I just leave it alone, unless accosted. I had one individual approach me and I just said no thank you. He decided to follow me and ask me why. I simply told him I will not be a slave to your God or anyone else’s. There were a lot of people around. That slowed him down a touch. And I went on with my day. It was a family event at a park. But I certainly don’t go off unprovoked if I hear something about religion. No matter how delusional I think they may be. Kind of like politics yes?
I appreciate that both Alex and Drew are so diplomatic in their approach to religious people, but I can't help but think that their discarding of antitheism is at least partly informed by privilege. I know that in the case of Drew in particular, religious trauma is something that he has experienced but experiencing it as a straight man in a liberal democratic society has undoubtedly made it easier for even him to see religiosity and theism as a true neutral. As a queer person who is still actively suffering from the harm resulting from others' religious practice, I find it very difficult to relinquish the idea that at least the capacity for dogmatic faith is a categorical negative. To avoid making a purely emotional argument here, I think I'd love to provide some solid reasons why there were certain things said during the conversation that just didn't sit well with me (no disrespect to Alex and Drew here, love their work).
1) I have no doubt that some beliefs predicated on faith can be a net positive in very narrow contexts. If astrology provides some people with entertainment and comfort, I have a hard time taking issue with that even if I find it silly. The problem arises when faith-based thinking can't be neatly contained to things like astrology which don't have any major negative impacts. There's a reason folks who genuinely believe in astrology are also more likely to be anti-vaxxers and think crystals have healing properties, faith-based beliefs that genuinely can and have caused harm. Faith based thinking can and does bleed into the realm of the harmful from the realm of the harmless all the time. I observe this even among highly educated, liberal Christians (and atheists for that matter) who are pro-choice and don't hate queer people.
2) It rubbed me the wrong way just a little when Drew spoke about how mental health and happiness isn't predicated on introspection or individual enlightenment and is instead more dependent on relationships with people (and not necessarily because I disagree with that statement). Two reasons: First, relationships with a community or people aren't as accessible to a lot of folks (queer people for example). Second, I feel like inherent in his statement is the assumption that the point of introspection and personal enlightenment is to enhance individual happiness. As a utilitarian, I have a very hard time justifying a frame of mind that prioritizes one's own mental health and/or lack of suffering over one's negative impact on the world. Would I have been happier being born heterosexual and staying in Christianity and the Christian community to this day? Possibly. But I would choose the life of supposed unhappiness or diminished happiness I am currently living every time over that hypothetical Christian life, precisely because emerging from faith based thinking has helped me draw conclusions that have greatly limited the harm I do in the world. I'm a trans ally, I care about the plight of the Palestinian people, I'm a vegetarian who thinks human supremacy/speciesm is unjustifiable, I'm a genuine proponent of gender equality, etc. The agonizing introspection I had to engage in to live with myself made me a better person in my estimation and I don't think I'm necessarily a bad person for thinking more religious people ought to go through that process even if it makes them less happy/healthy individually. Just as we would judge someone for not financially assisting a homeless person on the brink of starving to death by buying them a sandwich, I think it's reasonable to judge somebody who wouldn't enact the mental and emotional labor to improve the way they relate to the world around them, just because it would make them slightly better off mentally (as opposed to financially in the previous example).
I'll just end by saying that I'm open to being persuaded out of my soft antitheism. Maybe theism/faith can be a situational positive in a lot of cases (if a Jain or Hindu who is no longer convinced of reincarnation starts eating meat as a result, it'd be difficult for me to say that their theism didn't have a net positive effect, although again, it's hard to draw boundaries around faith-based thinking and limit it to positive or neutral manifestations).
I'll also end by saying that I'm aware that atheism isn't inherently virtuous and that atheists aren't even immune to religious thinking (most atheists I've met don't even realize that their deep belief in say, human rights, is socially constructed and requires a rather large leap of faith). I'm just saying that I think there are more religious people than one might think who remain in their theism not because they're convinced by its truth or its net positive effect on the world, but just because it does in fact make them happier and they see that as a higher priority than some higher ethical duty they might have to their fellow sentient creatures. I do think it's weird and a bit unhinged to pretend like this is exclusive to religious people (arguing for veganism within atheist circles has thoroughly disillusioned me to that way of thinking), but I am comfortable in saying that calling out that kind of dereliction of duty is a good thing and that I want to continue doing so. I would encourage Alex and Drew to continue doing so too, albeit more diplomatically than I probably could. lol.
I don't think I would have this perspective if I was heterosexual. I think if I was privileged in enough ways, I'd also be tempted to take a hyper-individualist perspective on theism's negative or positive impacts (Does accepting Pascal's Wager work for you? vs. Does accepting Pascal's Wager work better for everyone?). Also, yes, I realize that utilitarian ethics and moral realism in general requires a leap of faith as well, and I'm happy to admit it. I actually really respect liberal religious folks who at least admit that their theism is epistemologically problematic just like I respect moral realists who admit the same thing about their beliefs. It's the ones who can't admit this and are therefore pretty immune to empathy and change who really scare me.
UPDATE: ^Wrote this at the 35 minute mark, and having listened to the whole podcast now, I'm actually really happy with what Drew then says in the way of caveats afterwards (even if you make the leap to theism a la Pascal's Wager, don't cut yourself off from challenges and outside influences due to the risk that you hurt others with your insularity, etc.). Alex's example of meeting a Jehovah's Witness on a plane and thinking of ways to sow doubt about their harmful beliefs was illuminating. I think that's what was missing from the discussion for me, up to that point. I will say, it still makes me queasy when somebody say, accepts Pascal's Wager or otherwise comes to religion for the sake of their own mental health (things you believe out of desperation are rarely open to change and do tend to foster harmful insularity and close-mindedness). But to those who continue to to engage with others and continue to modify (or even occasionally discard) even their most sacred beliefs to prevent harm, even at the cost of some of their own happiness, I say sure. Have at it. Be an open-minded theist (rare in my experience, but not non-existent)
Dude, write a book LOL
This is my favorite comment down here.
@@mcchilde2903 You're too kind. Thanks for reading! I realize what a wall of text it is.
I'm of the belief that religion is built almost entirely upon people who depend upon it. And that by extension, providing _better_ support to these people than what their faith can offer is the surest and most efficient way to diminish religion. The closer we get to a guarantee that transitioning away will make one's life better, the more people will go through with it. As far as I can assume, this philosophy closely resembles Drew's.
Granted I'm also a privileged straight guy so I'm liable to miss some of your points by way of them not resonating with me.
@@dontstealmydiamondsv3156 Would be curious to know what points don't resonate.
As a Christian, this was an amazing conversation
🤦
Welcome. Disregard Aaron in the first comment entirely
yeah disregard the idiotic first comment
@@conexionneuronal8820 It is kinda funny how a Christian could watch these channels and completely ignore any scientific fact that is presented and still stay Christian.
@@Kryptix scientifically speaking, we can't prove anyone loves you or why you should continue existing
I just watched this again. Thank you. Easily the most life-changing video/podcast I have ever watched
Great job to both of you, honest, thoughtful, and engaging conversation.
I love both of you guys so much. You have both helped me guide through an intellectual deconstruction of my Christian faith during my time at an evangelical university, so seeing you together just makes my heart jump.
I see Disinterest. Im sorry to see many not much interest in being Updated, let alone fighting-back
against Extremism. I fear not many people even watched the video 'Marjorie Taylor Greene
Has DEEPLY Disturbing Views'.
Woah! I’ve been wanting to see you guys together!
Alex and Drew, Love you guys and all you do to promote kindly, communicative, and well thought out atheism. I try to keep everything that has ever touched me and is part of everything human beings go through as an active part of my thinking'-feeling-living complex, akin to Walt Whitman's poetic enterprise. A net sum joyous Hegelian synthesis. Well that's enough name dropping. I left Catholicism when I was 16 but had been an atheist for 3 years before that. I wasn't going to leave the church until I made a thorough study of it (and boy is there a LOT) So front row seats at church (to the chagrin of my younger brother) and I was already an avid reader. I followed the mass closely, read the Bible, Catechism, along with all the science, math, philosophy, literature, classical music, gourmet world cookery and languages I was absorbing, as well as other religions.
I hope you guys are happy and thriving and synthesizing 😁 As you ex-fundamentalists can imagine my favorite bible verse is 'All things work together for the good for those who love...... now it says the Lord but the Lord is Love so those who love, love. By the way besides the various atheist groups there are nice religious folk, Quakers, Unitarians, or even the Unity Church if you want some NO PRESSURE Churchy services. I remember at the Unity church service in Avery Fischer hall the 'preacher' said, god loves a cheerful giver so give as much (to the collection plate) as it makes you happy to give. It made me smile.
I wish you guys all the best on your journey, be happy and have some fun, a friend and fellow traveller JIM Oaxaca
What a fascinating and enriching collaboration. Thanks so much Alex and Drew. I really enjoyed listening to your conversation.
The Problem... i see with this video here
is that they are both the overly-polite Kind of A-UA-camr.
What about harsher or even no-sugarcoat-Guys like Aron Ra?
?
The difference between "politics is bad" and "religion is bad" is that it is nearly impossible to run a society without politics; If it's an evil, it's a necessary evil. Whatever merits one could grant to religion, you can't claim it's evils are necessary. Societies can do without religion, not politics.
Well put
Doesnt necessarily have to be true. We yet have no evidence of any society without religion. It may be necessary to have a society but we just don't yet know exactly how.
for many though, religion is a necessity; morally-speaking, psychologically too. religion has also done much good for the world, like politics. both aren't necessarily good nor evil.
@@dione6388eh tbf, it's far from necessary morally speaking.
@@FallenFromGlory for you, maybe.
Great collab! I'd love to see more of you two
I honestly can't express how much I appreciate this conversation. Deep, nuanced, compassionate, and clear-this is why I adore you both!
Also: I absolutely support the Righteous Mind love!
As a Philosophy and Sociology double major this is fascinating.
Really? It’s kind of superficial and shallow for someone who actually studies philosophy
@@john.premose ?
@@john.premose I have studied at a University level and there is enough nuance here to appreciate. Philosophy doesnt always have to go deeper and sometimes in doing so goes wrong.
@@Dempseylemon no there isn’t
@@john.premose don't be an elitist :)
What a fantastic discussion between those two brilliant young men! I hope they do it again soon.
The Problem... i see with this video here
is that they are both the overly-polite Kind of A-UA-camr.
Yes, Polite is a positive word, no doubt, but you cant have Balance with inviting very-similar Dudes.
What about harsher or even no-sugarcoat-Guys like Aron Ra?
He has a Position that not many A-Channel hold: That Religion is so inherently
flawed it'd be better to not have it.
@@nenmaster5218 I think there's room for "polite" atheism. The world is full of anti-theists. These two cats are extremely intelligent and that "politeness" might be an inviting and refreshing thing for many theists. "Catch more flies with honey than vinegar"
@@coffeetalk924 I never meant to say theres no Room.
Its part of a 'Balanced Diet' as i always preach.
@@nenmaster5218 do you always give your own comments a thumbs up? 😂
such great questions being asked in this podcast, nice work
Drew is probably the first atheist on YT I followed. He makes me want to be a more compassionate atheist. I’ve moved away from him somewhat to folks like Matt, Alex and RR. We need both types of atheists like Drew and Aron Ra.
If you live in the US and deal with fundamentalists, you may understand they are not passive or polite. They are dangerous.
So cool to see you two collaborating again! :)
I've been waiting for years for these two to do a colab. Finally!
Thank you Alex and Drew - As a Christian I found the discussion very interesting, open and honest. Enjoyed it
As a convinced Christian I truly enjoyed this conversation. The gentle humility does much to make it worthwhile.
Thank you
Do you think that atheists cannot have great morals? Not trying to start anything, I am simply curious?
I feel that it’s important to have growth philosophically. When people leave religion they look for a substitute at first before finding their personal truth. It’s good that you built a community for people.
I could listen to you both all day. 🤯
As a woman who likes personal freedom, the idea of Christianity being true makes me nervous.
true, especially as a homosexual person l feel like you can thinking about you want christianity to be real or not is a privilege already, for me is like asking me as a chicken you want KFC to be real or not, like why in the world i want it to be real?
Yeah and the amount of men who are ok going back to treating women as property, jarring.
Dont worry its not true. Listen to your heart. If there is a God, they would want you to be free and enlightened... not oppressed and degraded.
"Happiness doesn't come from within, it comes from between." Beautiful. Thank you, Drew.
Oh my God are you guys the same person? Comment for the algorithm. Thank you for the thoughtful conversation. I'm an agnostic, basically atheist and I find alot of atheist content a bit toxic sometimes. I really enjoy both of you guys attitude toward the issue and how you articulate your points. Thank you both for the work and thought you've put into your channels.
I'm glad they acknowledged the existence of TJ Kirk at the very beginning. He was a surprisingly big influence in early UA-cam, and he likely introduced many concepts related to religion/altheism, philosophy, and morality to many people... despite his controversial presentation and generally edgy personality.
Tiberius James Kirk?
Great video, Alex! It’s been interesting observing the evolution of your thoughts over the past years. Good chatting with you at the CC event :)
The Problem... i see with this video here
is that they are both the overly-polite Kind of A-UA-camr.
Yes, Polite is a positive word, no doubt, but you cant have Balance with inviting very-similar Dudes.
What about harsher or even no-sugarcoat-Guys like Aron Ra?
He has a Position that not many A-Channel hold: That Religion is so inherently
flawed it'd be better to not have it.
@nenmaster5218 I presume it is specifically their intention to only host polite debates since their aim seems to be to get theists onboard with questioning their beliefs. I personally find it hysterical that some people are unable to engage with ideas just because of the way they are presented and must receive them on a silver platter, i.e., by a ridiculously inoffensive and polite speaker, but such is the reality of it.
When Drew is talking I get to remmember all his "5 things atheists should not do" episodes, and boy - he is one consistent nice fellow
Beautiful conversation gentlemen.
Just a wonderful conversation. Bravo. 👏
As a believing christian I'm really grateful you guys have these conversations. Already subscribed to both of you 👍
I'm an ex-muslim, and I really like Drew's attitude. I used to be an anti-theist, but now I don't mind either way
@@hareecionelson5875 You do not have to answer, but I am curious about the experience as an ex-Muslim compared to mine of an ex-Christian. What was it like, socially, to deconvert? And do you live in the US where most people would not care, or do you live in the Middle East or Africa?
@@JNB0723 Being in the UK, we're usually pretty secular (perhaps more so than the US). My dad is a convert anyway, and my mum is more of a theist, but her family are muslim.
My gran links everything back to religion, so I just nod and go along with it.
Same
Great job lads! As ever
Been waiting for you two to collab again 🔥 Looking forward to getting through this one.
Sameee omg. I'm so excited lol.
my two favorite skeptics having a meaningful discussion, what more can one want
So glad to see these content creators that Ive loved for years come together and talk about how they continue to grow and evolve. Thats a big part of why I still watch both of your videos... well, not "religiously" but you get the idea.
Educating people is going to be the best tool
"It's not depression"
Actually, that kind of sensation is very common in depression.
I also think it's funny that nihilism is always depicted as this depressing emptiness. When I first learned the term, I was told it merely meant the belief that there is no inherent meaning. Like, this wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Whether or not this causes despair and apathy or not wasn't a necessary part of the definition. But more often than not I see it used in a way that includes those aspects as part of the definition.
I don't like making the word "depression" so vague that you can call yourself depressed because of a slight feeling of detachment from life.
Depression has always been an extremely heavy word, it should stay that way imo. When I use "depression", I'm talking about a little personal hell, not a place of indifference.
(And no, I think I've never experienced depression. Luckily, I've experienced very little sadness in my life.)
@@tacitozetticci9308 that's fair enough. I was more trying to say that it could be depression. Not that it has to be. That feeling of apathy is only a small part of what depression is, but it is part of it.
Or I guess part of some depressions? I don't know enough about it to say that it's part of all depressipns, but it definitely can be.
Nihilism is a truth proposition. How people choose to deal with it is ultimately up to them. It's like saying, "I don't like ice cream. Therefore, there is no such thing as ice cream".
How we feel about something says nothing about its truth proposition.
Not quite the conversation I believed this would be but very nice an interview!
Would you guy consider your self growing up? Because your videos changed so much:)!!! I’m enjoying this conversation sooo sooo much!!
It’s amazing to me that these two helped shape my understanding fresh out of deconversion, yet somehow we have differing conclusions and ideas only a year or two later.
What a fantastically honest and thoughtful conversation. You’re both fantastic thinkers. Love, a Christian.
If you're watching this then you're probably very close to ditching Christianity?
@@DarkMatter1919 nope, I just appreciate Alex’s journey and intellectual honesty. And Drew’s to a lesser degree just because I’m less familiar with his content.
@@mac3441
Then you're a very interesting case 😉👍
@@DarkMatter1919 Ditto: don't need the B S of the" I don't see any evidence for God " of M. D. Type debate excuses of the anti theist, new atheists.
These two are much more honest and willing to discuss God without the vitriol of Aron Ra and others.
BTW Dark matter/ Energy is probably ( more likely) going to point to an intelligent first cause than unintelligent random processes of the Big Bang theory.
But we definitely need more data since science has many gaps to its materialism only view of creation also.
You need Faith to believe its only random processes from our current knowledge of the Universe.
As Fine-tuning suggests the Universe is much more designed than we thought in the past.
Biases are on both sides of this issue : but as science leans more it will jettison the incoherent theories of supposedly facts they once believed in. But unlike atheists who won't admit their Biases , these are mine until more evidence takes them from a minority view to more of a mainstream view.
I love the idea that people can have differing views about life and its meaning and can still listen to each other and acknowledge each other's growth.
I'm so happy you guys are together in a video!!!!! yesssss!!!!!!
edit: I dreamed last night that cosmic skeptic read this comment out loud in his video and we became freinds
Hilarious video: 'Gods Prophecy Revised' by 'Holy Koolaid'.
As an antheist and a nihilist, that whole discription CosmicSkeptic gave of someone just kind of following their desires, while seeing through morality and hapiness, hit right on the mark.
"someone...following their desires, while seeing through morality and hapiness" Then you should be able to see through desire as well, and perhaps you can see through your seeing through.
I don't quite understand the concept of "seeing through happiness"...surely it's the ultimate goal in and of itself?
This was sooo friggin good!
I want more, especially when Alex pushed Drew on the spiritual nihilism, could've pushed a lot more!
Thanks for an excellent vid
Wow. Muslim academic here. This was a great conversation and amazing to see how far Alex has come along - and I mean that in a totally non-condescending way. I have problems with dogmatic theists & dogmatic atheists. So it’s nice to see this.
I don't think you're a Muslim
As you tune into philosophy you begin to realise that questions are the safe haven and answers are the danger area. This explains why Drew appears to be on the back foot while Alex looks in charge posing all the questions. This was obviously the agreed format. It's taken a long time but religion is learning this now, starting to put their own answers on the back burner and coming up with their own questions. It's a defense mechanism but even so can lead to self questioning which can only be a good thing imo.
Ray comfort definitely utilises that tactic to manipulate his victims
Very true.
And they also both speak different languages. Alex is very focused on the philosophical and spiritual, while Drew likes the psychological and anthropological. They did very good all things considered.
I’m not an atheist. I’ve been a Christian pretty much all my life. I am really impressed with Alex questions, really playing “Gods advocate”, so to speak, highlighting what you might call the existential dark side of atheism. Indeed it’s these kinds of questions and the replies I feel I would have to give if I were an atheist m, that serve as one of the primary sustaining causes of my Christianity. Props to you Alex. Really enjoyed this conversation.
As an atheist, he pinpointed the despair with his words. I've never heard it explained so well.
The only religion humanity needs is 'Be Kind'. Compassion is found in nearly all religious traditions, including those that predate Christianity. There is nothing particularly unique about Jesus' teachings.
I really appreciate the nuance you both bring to this kind of conversation. Thanks so much for sharing your experience and knowledge and being willing to deal with whatever criticism may be hurled your way.
Alex, I just want to say, you're an EXCEPTIONAL interviewer. You should pursue this format more often! I'm sure you could invite high level theists and atheists on to have more great discussions like this!
When talking to theists I've found it helpful to separate gods into the multi-omni, perfect, loving type, and the indifferent, non-omni, uncaring, deistic type. I'm a philosophical atheist for the first, and agnostic for the second. Another way to separate would be "gods represented by known religions" and "gods not represented by known religions" though these categories are fuzzy.
The more specific the God, the easier it can be falsified. Like, of course I can't know for certain whether there exists some imperceptible entity outside of space and time who simply doesn't reveal himself. Such an entity would be impossible, by definition, to prove or disprove. Am I agnostic about unicorns as well? Or leprechauns? I feel like disbelief is perfectly reasonable default position.
Lol same
@@JD-wu5pf what evidence do you have for your default position: if you are limited by our knowledge of the Universe and how it came into Existence.
Seems irrational to make a statement that God / gods cannot exist if people in the past had good reasons to Believe that they do exist : some wrote while others had oral traditions of their gods in every culture on Earth.
To think these people were ignorant is ignorance if you look the pyimimids or Gobeki tepe site of 100 ton stones cut moved and used for buildings.
Science doesn't yet know how they did this.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Occam's Razor states that "Plurality must never be posited without necessity."
We have natural explanations for all observable phenomena. Nothing can be explained by supernatural entities, so they aren't necessary. If they aren't necessary, why believe they exist?
Further, since we have natural explanations for all observable phenomena, should the supernatural exist, they must either never alter the natural world or must only ever alter the natural world in accordance with natural explanations.
So what's the simpler explanation? That the natural world explains all observable phenomena? Or that the natural world explains all observable phenomena because an omnipresent yet imperceptible supernatural being wills it so?
Which is more likely of a reason for why my pen fell? Gravity? Or because a mischievous imperceptible imp caused the spacetime to warp in exact accordance with all of our previous measurements, which caused gravity make my pen fall?
@@davidjanbaz7728 Also...what? We absolutely know how the pyramids were built lol. Slave labor. Like a ton of it. It took me 30 seconds of googling to find an article explaining in great detail how the blocks were moved and placed.
Drew and Alex are very different people. Drew is about compassion and Alex is about rational understanding.
I agree but I enjoyed both of them. They both bring something important to the discussion.
It's really weird to watch someone talk with himself like this.
It’s great to watch you two discuss religion and atheism calmly and respectfully.
I remember as a child pretending to believe because my mom wanted me to believe but the more my mom put pressure on me to believe the more I thought "People only believe because they are told to believe and not because it is actually true."
The question of "What if an atheist dove back into religion in the hopes of believing it again, even if they're aware that they are essentially fooling themselves"
It reminded me quite a lot of the character Cypher from The Matrix.
Cypher managed to escape the Matrix, but years later he laments, "Why oh why didn't I take the Blue Pill?" He misses the comfort of being in the Matrix, despite knowing that's it's artificial, and he grows weary of the war against the machines and of the harshness of the real world.
But then he finds an opportunity to go back and, notably, forget everything that happened after he took the Red Pill. In this way, Cypher rationalizes, it doesn't matter what he does to his crewmates and to Zion, because he won't remember any of his responsibility.
Cypher is made out to be a villain, of course, but his motivations are fascinating. As he puts it, "Ignorance Is Bliss."
In nil sapiendo vita iucundissima est
This is not coincidence as The Matrix has heavy religious undertones. Cypher reflects Judas, but at the same time shows exactly what you said: he knows it’s not real but would rather live the lie. Just like many theists today.
Drew struggled with this. He wanted the community, but knew it was not real.
Hi Alex and Drew, I am a Christian and I really appreciate your honest and humble approach to these questions. And I am really happy to hear a sympathetic view towards those that have a religious belief. I love you both.
I would encourage anyone who feels there must be something more to life, keep seeking the truth in humility. Who do you believe Jesus Christ is and why?
I appreciate the tact, but having heard their positions, have you considered that many atheists have spent their whole lives with all the same doubts and questions Christians have, and have settled in naturalistic and/or philosophical 'truths' that do not mandate any god (least of them the Christian god)?
And, answering your question, as I grow older and study more about the topic, I'm less and less inclined to believe that the Bible Jesus has ever existed. I think he is an amalgam of various real and fictional people and characters that is a good 'face' for the Bible. As for 'why', there is a lot of research being done about the subject, so there's some literature for anyone interested over there.
@@SouthernMenace hi Marcelo 👋. I appreciate your response.
I like that you are studying about this topic. The thing that comes to mind as I read your comment is: I hope that you keep in mind that no matter how intelligent or how much a human studies, no one believes the exact things. We perceive things differently, have biases, different life experiences that shape the way we understand things. But there can only be one truth. When we humble ourselves before God and admit that we cannot know better than him and we cannot know or understand him without his help, in my opinion, it invites him to guide us and helps us find him when we seek him with a humble approach. And maybe you already approach it this way. Thanks for reading.
@@sarahpfeuffer1396 Hi Sarah, I hope you don't mind me interjecting. But in my opinion my biggest issue with Christianity, is that I don't think it makes sense to me. I can accept there is a God, but the way the bible portrays YHWH seems illogical and immoral to me. I hope this isn't rude, but why should I trust the bible? There are some historical things that are accurate enough, but that doesn't mean everything portrayed in it was accurate, either. Again hope this doesn't feel like I'm attacking you. But I hope you can shed some light.
@@thomaswest4033 Hi Thomas, 👋 you don't seem rude at all! You are very respectful! And I appreciate you sharing your opinion. May I ask you a question or two: if God is a just God and he sees fit to bring justice to those that deserve it, do you think we will always be able to understand his perspective or understand it, considering we don't have all of the details and knowledge of the situation? How can we have a clear enough perception to judge the decisions that God makes if the accounts in the Bible are true? And I understand it would be difficult to make sense of it. I certainly don't understand all of the things God does and why. Do you find there are things in the Christian faith that you are drawn to?
@@sarahpfeuffer1396Thanks Sarah, much appreciated. I understand that I might not be able to understand God. But I think some understanding would be better to draw me in. I think some things are nice. Some Christian philosophy is interesting, and I think the fact that God chose to manifest himself as a poor humble man is very unique to their faith that is compelling... Apart from that, I can't say anything in particular draws me towards it.
I am not a christian anymore, but have been for almost 40 years. The groups I was part of over the years didn't all see hell the same way. Many thought of it as something only really bad people went to. Just those that would not turn even if they were pressed to the very breaking point. Mostly christians (at least here in the Netherlands) believe that everybody gets a fair chance.
But is hell not described as infinite suffering, how can you justify infinite suffering for humans who are unable to do infinite bad
@@OmniversalInsect even if someone did exactly x amount of hurting. And if hell gives x amount of suffering it's still evil.
Any sane person would just forgive.
What's the point of giving suffering to someone who can't change their past.
Any kind person as God will show us hell but won't actually put u in.
Don't submit to a faith on the basis of a niche denomination. All a True Christian should do is read the Bible and practice according to his understanding and interpretation. Not rely on the skewed human doctrines of a church.
@@anandsuralkar2947 would that be fair to person A who was wronged by person B who god completely forgave
@@OmniversalInsect God knows everything, so god knows that that person will never believe in him, therefore god gives him infinite hell for "infinite" sin.
Really cool watching you talk to yourself. Like one of those pitch meeting videos
love seeing you guys back together again. I had just found CosmicSkeptic right before you guys first collab, and I was one of the early member's of Drew's community, and I have very much kept up with both of you over the years. Love to see how you both have grown, and my views have grown along. Also, I would love to see you two interact with Ocean Keltoi. I think that would be an amazing conversation. Peace and love guys!