Quoting from a guy on this comment section: Calvinists mis-define sovereignty to mean "meticulous determination"... That is incorrect. The 'sovereign' can do as he pleases... BUT, it not required to do anything. He is not obligated to control something simply because he could if he chose to. Calvinism assumes God uses his power as they might if only they had it. They use the word 'sovereign' for it's rhetorical value... but Lucifer's freedom to rebel was no threat to God's sovereignty in heaven, Adam's freedom to sin was no threat to God in the Garden, and our ability to choose to rebel is no threat to him today.
There is definitely a “tension “ between “free will” which could give us cause to boast that we made the choice, verses the Holy Spirit causes us to choose him. MacArthur calls it a mystery. Which are many in the Christian Faith. The truth is God is sovereign, God is just and God is good. These attributes are the rock solid bases for our trust in the one and only true Lord and King.
I like and believe what Adrian Rogers just explained, but I hope this doesn't mean God isn't totally sovereign, because I strongly believe in God being completely sovereign .
So what do you mean by "sovereign" then? What does that have to do with God giving men and beings free-will? How does that affect His sovereignty or better said, your understanding of what sovereignty is? Everything is going to happen and come to pass just exactly the way God says it will through His Prophets and through His Son Jesus, the Messiah. God has always been, is now and forever will be in absolute, total control of all His creation and what transpires, despite the God-given free-will we have. I don't understand the "sovereignty'" issue at all.
@@TeleTio Calvinists mis-define sovereignty to mean "meticulous determination"... That is incorrect. The 'sovereign' can do as he pleases... BUT, it not required to do anything. He is not obligated to control something simply because he could if he chose to. Calvinism assumes God uses his power as they might if only they had it. They use the word 'sovereign' for it's rhetorical value... but Lucifer's freedom to rebel was no threat to God's sovereignty in heaven, Adam's freedom to sin was no threat to God in the Garden, and our ability to choose to rebel is no threat to him today.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT Yeah, I'm totally aware of all that you mentioned about how Calvinists define sovereignty. My attempt is for @christophermalli9983 to tell me in his own words what he means... which of course I suspect he would "regurgitate" the Calvinist definition just as you gave it. And afterwards I hope to be able to respond back to him in an attempt to guide him along with what actually is written in the Holy Scriptures and encourage him to take his time and depend on the promised Holy Spirit of Truth (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13-15) to give him all the understanding he needs.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT Quote " Calvinists mis-define sovereignty to mean "meticulous determination". Actually Calvinists define "sovereign" as God's right and authority to rule over creation. It can also refer to how God exercises this power. Here are some characteristics of God's sovereignty: Authority: God is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, with no limitations. Control: God has control over all things, including the ability to intervene in any situation. Presence: God is present with his people and throughout creation. Omnipotence: God is all-powerful and can override other powers and authorities. Freedom: God's sovereignty is also connected to his freedom. Goodness: God's sovereignty is in line with his goodness, righteousness, holiness, and impeccability. So what does GOD say about Himself and His sovereignty: Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." Joshua 11:19 “For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them…“ “I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me” (Jeremiah 32:40). “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2). “He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!” (Daniel 4:35). “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases” (Psalm 115:3). Psalm 135:6 - The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths. Proverbs 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 19:21 “Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.” Prov 16:9 “In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.” Amos 3:6 “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” Job 42:2 "“I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted."
Nothing but respect for Dr. Rogers. He is the best communicator that has ever been in an American pulpit. But he is wrong in denying man's absolute powerlessness to choose Jesus apart from a work of saving grace first. "All God's works have been complete from the foundation of the world." Hb 4:3
Adrian Roger's chooses to twist scripture to fit his narrative, changing the meaning of words in scripture is exactly what ALL the the other Bible versions do, u gave as much to do with your second birth as you did with your first one. Dead in trespasses and sin means just that DEAD and dead men can't ask for anything.
Total depravity speaks to the EXTENT of the EFFECT of sin: every aspect of a person’s life is effected by it and no part is excluded from its effect. Which is why Paul could quote the psalmist in Romans 3, saying that there are NONE who are righteous and NONE who seek after God, and then goes on to prove that justification of the ENTIRE man is a WHOLLY divine act.
But justification isn't a wholly divine act according to the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and following Romans 10:9-10. The Calvinist concerns themselves greatly with how free will is such an "abominable term", when it isn't, and the term total depravity, as well as the rest of the TULIP model not being expressly utilized in Scripture.
Quoting from a guy on this comment section: Calvinists mis-define sovereignty to mean "meticulous determination"... That is incorrect. The 'sovereign' can do as he pleases... BUT, it not required to do anything. He is not obligated to control something simply because he could if he chose to. Calvinism assumes God uses his power as they might if only they had it. They use the word 'sovereign' for it's rhetorical value... but Lucifer's freedom to rebel was no threat to God's sovereignty in heaven, Adam's freedom to sin was no threat to God in the Garden, and our ability to choose to rebel is no threat to him today.
There is definitely a “tension “ between “free will” which could give us cause to boast that we made the choice, verses the Holy Spirit causes us to choose him. MacArthur calls it a mystery. Which are many in the Christian Faith. The truth is God is sovereign, God is just and God is good. These attributes are the rock solid bases for our trust in the one and only true Lord and King.
I like and believe what Adrian Rogers just explained, but I hope this doesn't mean God isn't totally sovereign, because I strongly believe in God being completely sovereign .
So what do you mean by "sovereign" then? What does that have to do with God giving men and beings free-will? How does that affect His sovereignty or better said, your understanding of what sovereignty is? Everything is going to happen and come to pass just exactly the way God says it will through His Prophets and through His Son Jesus, the Messiah.
God has always been, is now and forever will be in absolute, total control of all His creation and what transpires, despite the God-given free-will we have. I don't understand the "sovereignty'" issue at all.
@@TeleTio Calvinists mis-define sovereignty to mean "meticulous determination"... That is incorrect. The 'sovereign' can do as he pleases... BUT, it not required to do anything. He is not obligated to control something simply because he could if he chose to. Calvinism assumes God uses his power as they might if only they had it. They use the word 'sovereign' for it's rhetorical value... but Lucifer's freedom to rebel was no threat to God's sovereignty in heaven, Adam's freedom to sin was no threat to God in the Garden, and our ability to choose to rebel is no threat to him today.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT Yeah, I'm totally aware of all that you mentioned about how Calvinists define sovereignty. My attempt is for @christophermalli9983 to tell me in his own words what he means... which of course I suspect he would "regurgitate" the Calvinist definition just as you gave it.
And afterwards I hope to be able to respond back to him in an attempt to guide him along with what actually is written in the Holy Scriptures and encourage him to take his time and depend on the promised Holy Spirit of Truth (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13-15) to give him all the understanding he needs.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT Quote " Calvinists mis-define sovereignty to mean "meticulous determination". Actually Calvinists define "sovereign" as God's right and authority to rule over creation. It can also refer to how God exercises this power.
Here are some characteristics of God's sovereignty:
Authority: God is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, with no limitations.
Control: God has control over all things, including the ability to intervene in any situation.
Presence: God is present with his people and throughout creation.
Omnipotence: God is all-powerful and can override other powers and authorities.
Freedom: God's sovereignty is also connected to his freedom.
Goodness: God's sovereignty is in line with his goodness, righteousness, holiness, and impeccability.
So what does GOD say about Himself and His sovereignty:
Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Joshua 11:19 “For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them…“
“I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me” (Jeremiah 32:40).
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2).
“He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!” (Daniel 4:35).
“Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases” (Psalm 115:3).
Psalm 135:6 - The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
Proverbs 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Proverbs 19:21 “Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.”
Prov 16:9 “In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps.”
Amos 3:6 “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?”
Job 42:2 "“I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted."
Lucifer’s freedom to rebel
Nothing but respect for Dr. Rogers. He is the best communicator that has ever been in an American pulpit. But he is wrong in denying man's absolute powerlessness to choose Jesus apart from a work of saving grace first. "All God's works have been complete from the foundation of the world." Hb 4:3
Does that include all the decisions that were made to deny Christ?
Adrian Roger's chooses to twist scripture to fit his narrative, changing the meaning of words in scripture is exactly what ALL the the other Bible versions do, u gave as much to do with your second birth as you did with your first one. Dead in trespasses and sin means just that DEAD and dead men can't ask for anything.
Total depravity speaks to the EXTENT of the EFFECT of sin: every aspect of a person’s life is effected by it and no part is excluded from its effect. Which is why Paul could quote the psalmist in Romans 3, saying that there are NONE who are righteous and NONE who seek after God, and then goes on to prove that justification of the ENTIRE man is a WHOLLY divine act.
But justification isn't a wholly divine act according to the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and following Romans 10:9-10. The Calvinist concerns themselves greatly with how free will is such an "abominable term", when it isn't, and the term total depravity, as well as the rest of the TULIP model not being expressly utilized in Scripture.