John Demjanjuk: Was he Innocent? Or Was He Treblinka's Ivan the Terrible?
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2021
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Source/Further reading:
Economist, obituary: www.economist.com/obituary/20...
New Yorker, the Last Trial: www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...
Christian Science Monitor, early life: www.csmonitor.com/World/2009/...
US Holocaust Memorial Museum - the trials: encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conten...
Jewish Virtual Library, case against Demjanjuk: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...
Trawniki Camp: encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conten...
Treblinka Camp: encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conten...
Ivan the Terrible overview: www.history.co.uk/article/iva...
Family’s perspective, US: clevelandmagazine.com/in-the-...
Ongoing trials of Nazis in Germany: www.theguardian.com/world/202...
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Laura Knotek
16 hours ago
@pelle oh Look up Alois Hudal. He was a Catholic bishop who established the "ratlines" that helped Nazis escape to South America.
you know you might be violating german law with this video? Volksverhetzung, and yes even relativising aspects of convicted people's participation in genocide is problematic. Even if you aren't it's in extreme poor taste and will only appeal to neonazis and others with fascist political tendencies here in germany. Seriously poor taste, even just the title. Time to fire that particular writer.
Edit: take a look at all the folks empathising with nazis on your comments and literally offering up apologetics for ultimately willing participants. No responsibility only marketing. I've unsubed everything you do.
Hey could you do one on Georgy Malenkov to round out the major post-Stalin players? Your Georgy Zhukov one was brilliant (as always).
Even if Malenkov doesn't meet the notability/influence level to get his own vid it'd get a lot of views, especially from those who've seen Jeffrey Tambor's performance of him in Death of Stalin.
There’s a reason that Damjanjuk went to worked at Ford… I wonder just how many people will even understand what I just said
A person can be an abuser and also a victim. But the latter doesn't absolve one of the former. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
I feel sorry for the lawyer. I get that this John/Ivan guy is a monster to the Holocaust survivor but that doesn't give them the right to throw acid in the face of someone doing their job. Even monsters have a right to legal representation and someone has to do that job, they don't need to be attacked on top of it and left with life long injuries. How does that make you any better than the monster you're claiming to be fighting against?
@Thomas Pickens we're not sure about that, Israel / USSR, especially in cases like his, they might appoint someone, & *tell* them they *are* the defense lawyer.
@Thomas Pickens What's you're point, that lawyer should stop protection people because if they take a case people has the right to assault them?? He was a monster, but they were just doing their job.
It doesn't make you better. It makes you the exact same as those that willingly killed in those camps. Are the more we are fed "this person bad" the more we become evil. Tune out man
@Thomas Pickens then the next lawyer could, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next
@Thomas Pickens "if you defend a monster youre part of the problem" do you hear yourself man? Everyone has a right to due process in this country. If you're white and racist, you could say gang members and mass shooters in inner cities should never be defended. If you're a black racist you would say every crime done against a black person is racism and that explaining what really happened is perpetuating racism. You see the paradox? Its a trap. Grow up and look around.
The tonal shift between the horrific stories and the ad reads always give me whiplash.
Liar
“He was accused of brutally murdering thousands of innocent Jews…….are you suffering from erectile dysfunction?”
I remember when this man was arrested and accused of being Ivan the Terrible. A former Spanish prisoner of Treblinka was interviewed on TV and he said, without any doubt, that this man was not Ivan the Terrible.
I don’t know why but I found that quite interesting, as someone who thinks he very much did it.
Theres also heart renching testimony given by jewish survivors of trablinka who swear on there life that he was ivan the terrible
@@wynpitnick3577 Yeah, I find that way less convincing to be honest. From what I've gathered, people are much more likely to make false positive IDs when they want justice than the opposite.
Someone proclaiming, "It was him!" is most likely acting out of emotion, someone saying "nah mate, it definitely wasn't", is probably saying it because they mean it.
@@DutchDread yeah unfortunately I think this is a case where they wanted to pin this on someone so bad they jumped on John at the opportunity to do so even without any concrete evidence, watching some of the testimonies a seemingly crazy old man saying that he could tell it was him from looking into his eyes just isn’t sufficient enough evidence for me.
@@masondupre518 the guy was lying he admitted it. His last words on the subject was that they wanted to put him to something. His original statement. Was that the prisoners killed him when the camps were liberated
Something I've learnt from all these types of crimes
It's very easy for people to say "well you should have said no and accepted death" when they will never be put in the position themselves.
He didnt just helo out he torched ppl excessively not through orders. Learn about what youre talking about before you comment
@@mike-Occslong How about you look at what I actually said before you make yourself look like an idiot.
The point was anyone who claims others should just accept to die are ONLY saying that because they themselves will never be in that position.
@mark76122 that's a fine opinion and all, except for the fact that the Israeli supreme court overturned that conviction. There's nothing besides inconsistent eye witness accounts saying otherwise, meanwhile there's plenty of evidence putting him as a basic guard at the Sobibor concentration camp. His second trial in Germany was basically just a kangaroo court, with them finding him guilty of murdering every person who died at Sobibor and sentencing him to 5 years in prison, and then letting him go back to his nursing home until he died of old age.
99% of everyone would have been a Nazi because 99% of everyone cannot look past political rhetoric to see the truth, and then stand up for that truth.
Even the German soldiers were scared of their command. If they didn’t do what they were told they would be shot on sight
@@mike-Occslongnot proven. ID was forged and his “victims” didn’t even point him out at first
as a historian, I'm not at all surprised that all the victims misdefined him so confidently. As a rule, you never just blindly accept the narrative and "facts" presented by contemporary witnesses. They don't usually lie, but they themselves have some conceptualization of history beyond their personal experience, so they feel obliged to line these two together.
The familyname of the mother of Demjanjuk was Marchencko. This something BIOGRAPHICS doesnt mention, which is a shame. Because this was mentioned during the supreme court hearings in Israel.
@@andriesschoneveld6547 oh, ok, thnx :o but wasn't he proved to by someone else anyway? Surely he could theoretically (but somewhat unlikely) be both the guards, or the court could have misjudged.
@@cyrilmrazek6649 i have seen the docu about him on Netflix. If I understood correctly the supreme court couldnt say that it was truly him. You had the survivors on one side and the Trawniki reports on the other. And his service record didn't mention Treblinka it did.mention Sobibor and Majdanek.
@@andriesschoneveld6547 ok, thanks. One more thing which was unclear to me is whether the witnesses identified him (the old guy) as the treblinka guy, or did they identify his old photo as the guard? Anyway I should maybe correct my original statement as: "I wouldn't be at all surprised..."
@@cyrilmrazek6649 Both. Let me explain. The US Justice Department recieved information from Russia about Russian Trawniki's who were living in the US. One was Demjanjuk. The information said that he was at Sobibor. Then, there was one other death camp guard Federenco who lived in the US. Federenco was a possible death camp guard in Treblinka. They wanted to remove Federenco from the US, but they needed more information about him. So they had given a picture of him to the Israeli Police. And the Israeli Police had to show his picture to some survivors of Treblinka for his indentification. They used the picture of Demjanjuk as a 'filler' (they put his picture next to the picture of Federenco, with other pictures of men. So that the indentification of Federenco could be more accurate. But what happened was: all the interviewed survivors (around 11) all indentified Demjanjuk as a guard in Treblinka. And the old guy had recognized him in this picture and during the court hearing (the images was in the court hearing not in the supreme court hearing).
Having to choose between death or being a guard for the camps is an awful, awful choice to have. I wonder how many people here would have rather chosen death. I'm not sure at all it's that many. We all would like to think we would, but when you really are in that position? It's not an easy choice to make.
I'm pretty sure that he wasn't Ivan the Terrible, but I do think that he was a guard. A prisoner of war that had to either choose death (they were not that popular with the Nazis, so to say) or to be a guard for the camps.
some people are unable to harm other,specialy in such a brutal way,i have seen med students vomit at just seeing a corpse,how would those people ever be able to do it?they wouldnt
@@deenman23
Just standing guard wouldn't necessarily make you actually take part in the harming of others. Directly, at least. At least I suppose that's how they justified it to themselves.
@@Elora445 well yeah,but they didnt claim this dude was just a guard,they claimed he was a sadistic monster that gouged peoples eyes out lol
@@deenman23
That's the opposite what the video did. They ended up saying that he wasn't Ivan the Terrible, but instead a guard at several of the camps. That's what the Russian evidence says, at least.
@@deenman23 a med student that has had no doubt a reasonabily nice life... torture and starve said med student from the age of 8 make them fight wars... then test the survivial instinct of said med student
Not defending one single action, but comparisons cannot be made
Would you convict the survivors of trebilnka that killed the gaurds to escape? i think not
It seems to me like he wasn’t “Ivan the Terrible.”
However he DID lie about his past as a guard. So he wasn’t “innocent” either.
Wouldn't you lie about it if an entire religion was out to have you hanged in revenge for something you didn't do?
He Edie hat because he knew on that basis of that alone they would want to crucify him. He was obviously a victim of circumstance in my opinion
The question is how much of a choice many of these people had. It chosing between doing terrible things or getting killed yourself. I have a little trouble calling the people mentioned at of the video guilty.
@@bm5448 He DID those things, now whether he had a choice or not is a different matter.
@@johnpats7024 The Netflix series indicated that he had repeatedly lied and on balance was guilty.
1:30 - Chapter 1 - Ukrainian boy
4:55 - Chapter 2 - Inferno
8:35 - Mid roll ads
10:10 - Chapter 3 - After the fall
13:30 - Chapter 4 - If this is a man
17:10 - Chapter 5 - The other monster
20:45 - Chapter 6 - Justice done ?
Preciate yah
This is great! Thanks
I find it amazing that so many survivors were sure Ivan was the right man. That just shows how unreliable eye witness testimony is, particularly some time after the fact.
I was detained and questioned cause an eye witness thought I committed assault on one of our neighbours trying to film teens drinking and smoking pot in a field near our subdivision. The neighbour thought it was a good idea to get evidence of teens breaking the law to get them in trouble with the police but got his ass kicked in the process, turns out in the minimal light the kid had the same build, haircut and height as me so naturally the next morning on my way to work he assumed it was me and reported to the police who were investigating the crime. Basically people can make costly mistakes, as bad as I feel for them and I think John had what was coming to him, imagine if he was an innocent man.
Sir Karl Popper was considered one of the 20th century's greatest philosophers of science. He created the Hierarchic Pyramid of the Probative Value of Types of Evidence that ranked types of evidence from the most to least reliable. At the top of the pyramid was logic, followed by laws of nature / science, technical possibility, material evidence, documents, neutral testimony, and at the BOTTOM of the pyramid as the LEAST reliable form of evidence was "party" or eye-witness testimony of people involved in an incident.
Logic carries great weight, as do the immutable and unchanging laws of nature or science. Also convincing is whether something was technically possible at the time, given the resources available and obstacles in place. Material evidence and documents are reliable, but less so because evidence can be planted and documents forged. Neutral testimony is only slightly more reliable than party testimony because the person doesn't have a stake in the outcome of the matter. Party or eye-witness testimony is dead last because it's easily corrupted by lies, bias, intimidation, embellishment, personal interest or simply mis-remembering because so much time has passed or the stress / trauma involved in an incident.
It doesn't because it was determined that he actually was one of the Nazis soldiers at the death camps and they most likely remembered his face too and got them both mixed up of who the real Ivan was it was proven that he was actually at those camps and he was not a victim he was one of the aggressors he was put to death you know that right
Or maybe they were right. These people didn't just see him once or just catch a glimpse of him. They saw him daily.
Ivan believed in what he did. He never thought he was wrong. If JD was Ivan, in t h e 1980s he would still feel no regret.
I read in a book that in the village closest to Treblinka (Wulka). The screaming of women being murdered were so terrible. That the whole village would lose their heads and run to the forest. It would happen 3 or 4 times a day.
That's insane to imagine people just living within any sort of proximity to these camps you'd think they'd keep it more hidden but it was before everyone had a camera
@@Enrique-peralta they had to be near major rail lines, so you couldn't just put them out in the middle of nowhere. There really wasn't anywhere you could just hide camps like these.
That’s really unsettling 😫
I watched a documentary where an inmate at Treblinka was in charge of sorting through people's clothes and one day he found his younger sisters dress in the pile( her and their mom were also arrested and he never saw them again.)And he just started crying. I heard a lot of horror stories from the Holocaust but that broke me for some reason. I can't imagine.
what book?
This is a fantastic video! Love to learn more in depth about this.
Watched the Netflix documentary about this last year during the lockdown one of the most interesting post war stories and also probably one of the best documentaries on Netflix.
What’s the name of it??
Nevermind I remember seeing the previews. Gotta watch it. Thanks
@@sheenamcguire5225 devil next door !
I have read alot about this story since I watched the Netflix doc and it seems pretty well established that he wasn't Ivan the Terrible. Not only that but the US knew he likely wasn't the whole time and withheld that evidence from the defence.
I agree. He was misidentified as Ivan but also lied about being a prison camp guard.
Well done. but neither of them get good press.
Yeah....I think you should watch it again. I do not at all think the thesis of the Doc was to try to prove his innocence... and there was a decent amount of evidence that condemned him pretty hard. When there is any doubt... when ur a bad guy...you hold onto that doubt. There were a bunch of men that were executed but held they were innocent till the end...and then when DNA evidence came out, it proved it was actually them.
What is the name of the Netflix Documentary?
@@marymccarthy2533 the devil next door.
Thanks guys, keep up the good work.
really good video... keep up the good work...
Last year I read an article about the grandson of Sobibor deputy commander, Johann Niemann, who had been killed in the Sobibor revolt. The grandson gave picture collection of Niemann and in these collection were pictures of Demjanjuk in the camp, proving more his involvement.
Indeed,. Even if he wasn't " the terrible" he was involved and part of the camp guards. I still say,the man got what he deserved. He lied about his whereabouts by telling he was in Chelm, knowing he testified in the late 40's he actually was in sobibor..
But was he forced to work there against his will or did he volunteer ?
@@Halbi1987 all the ukrainien guards volunteered
@@Halbi1987 for me, his credibility went down when he lied in court - that he was in Chelm. After hearing the witness stand on what they went through, you would assume that he will at least tell the truth, and if he did, would've had more solid alibi. Especially if he is as devout Orthodox... People don't understand the power the Religion has on a person - I know one. It becomes their whole being, and will practice it whatever it takes. And being truthful is one of them. So there you go, two lies I can spot from the documentary.
KGB propaganda. You've been had.
My grandfather and I were watching the news when this broke. He goes “Huh, I worked with John”. Super crazy. Said he was a very quiet man and kept to himself.
At Sobibor? *we got em*
You should check out James Traficant's story on this matter. These jokers are telling only the facts they want you know. So you can draw a wrong conclusion about this man. The story is way deeper and more disturbing than you know. Take it from me who has researched this. This is propaganda at it's worse!😠
@@derpwords2429 Are you proud of that? I feel sorry for you. You really believe justice was served in how they persued this man until he died. Wow! What it must be like to be you. This is propaganda. They went after this man without evidence at all. Isreal is one of the worse Governments on this planet and case proves it!🤨
@@1959truthseeker you really need to provide proof for that claim. Just saying "trust me, I researched it" isn't enough
@@derpwords2429They probably worked together for Hitler's buddy Henry Ford.
Very good. Classic Simon. Wonderfully done
Great video! Never have seen such a great documentary!
A lot of my family members died in WWII. My grandmother survived 400 days in the Leningrad siege. That being said: I don't believe the courts' stance of "if you pushed the gas button, you're a mass murderer, a selfish prick trying to save your own skin". It's as though they're expecting everyone to have a "I will sacrifice myself in order to not push a murder button" mentality over a "if I don't do it, I'll be replaced and die for nothing" mentality.
By this logic, we should try the pilots that dropped the atom bombs on Japan.. So whether luring prisoners into gas chambers or pushing the gas release button, we can't tell their intent, whether they enjoyed it or acted out of self preservation, in which the latter case, standing up against their assigned position would not make any difference except just another wasted life
As a Clevelander, I remember this case (and they always noting he was a retired autoworker/he lived in suburban Lorain County) very well.
He actually lived in Seven Hills (Cuyahoga County) South of Cleveland and East of Parma.
He lived in Seven Hills-matter of fact a lot of morons in the neighborhood actually didn’t want him prosecuted. Meanwhile everyone else were looking at these fools like WTF? If you do the crime you gotta do the time.
@@Deathtofrogleghorn True but it has definitely 2 sides because the only real evidence the court had of him was the evidence russia gave to the USA. so if u believe it to be real then he did all those things but if its all fabricated which russia is definetly known for. but all in all hes definetly guilty of some crimes id say.
Well that explains why nowadays 29 time arrested turds are just let go to victimize more innocent people, progress.
@@glorifiedg9582 True! I can beat that number -- if it's over 40, they just say "numerous" now, ain't that a bitch!🙄😮
Wow you really have a great voice and I enjoy your videos every day, thank you Simon.
🥱🤢🤮
You neglected to mention that at the time he died he was undergoing an appeal. In the german system a person is not guilty until the appeal process is completed. As a result, it is not really accurate to state that he was guilty.
I grew up in Cleveland during the majority of this man's trial and almost everyday from 86 to 93 he was mentioned on local news broadcasts especially WEWS channel 5 at the time since I was young and was still learning about life I couldn't figure out if they were gunning for him or being non bias and just reporting the story. But, he was everywhere in all the local media being one of the biggest news stories in Cleveland at that time.
I grew up in Cleveland and vividly recall news coverage of the investigation and trial when I was only just getting to be old enough to understand the horrible things he was accused of. It remains one of the formative experiences of my life.
Excited to watch this. I lived in Akron while all this was going on and this has always been a favorite to dive into.
I just watched this documentary on Netflix. I’ve been waiting for you to make a video about this!
What’s the name of the documentary?
@@christianjones854 The Devil Next Door
The Netflix doc has a few more wrinkles that Simon didn’t have time to discuss. Super interesting and might make you think this guy was Ivan the terrible.
@@DanieleXY Thanks sounds like something worth watching!
As an iranian who was almost entirely alien to the atrocities of ww2 , these type of videos are really interesting to me because I never thought that being this evil would ever be possible ( not talking about ivan bc I don't know he was innocent or not but ww2 in general)
Thanks for the video ...informative as ever
As an official guide to a former concentration camp I can report that this video makes counterfactual claims about forced participation. I wouldn't use this video or this guys channels to learn about these multiple genocides under the nazis.
I'd also like to inform you that plenty of people had their lives threatened or were murdered, but choose to oppose the fascists anyways. The picture painted here makes it seem like this was a hard choice...it was only a hard choice for murderous privileged opportunists like John Demjanjuk trying to figure out who might win the war...
This video is garbage and relativises genocide.
@@jesipohl6717 I think that relativism is something most humans (possibly including yourself) do. In modern times we decry human rights abuses while at the same time wearing clothes (or using electronics) that were made with child labour. Certainly, nuance and relativism can be used as tools to explain (not excuse) the actions of various civilians and soldiers during those terrible years of WW2. Demjanjuk, while guilty, was also a man who lived a harsh live from childhood, and was a POW at the time he committed his crimes. This hardly sounds like a 'privileged opportunist' as you put it.
@@beno1129 “In modern times, we decry human rights abuses while at the same time wearing Nike sneakers and using cell phones that are made with child labor.” BINGO 🎯🎯🎯
@@jesipohl6717 choose or chose it’s your choice.
@@beno1129 live or life, it’s up to you.
He had an SS tattoo. Even if not Ivan the Terrible, he was an SS officer named Ivan in the area of Treblinka who looked uncannily like him. He was either a horrible monster or an infamous horrible monster.
this guy was at sobibor not treblinka hence not ivan the terrible
@shutup2751 idk I feel like it's a little too convincing. I mean there's absolutely not a trace of paperwork to prove he is who he says he is. But for starters going off looks it's dangerously close. Especially for someone who was at a death camp at the same time. Ivan was claimed to be at both at some point. Not to mention the scar where his blood type tattoo would be. And with what all went on he was extremely calm about it. I don't feel like someone innocent would be that calm. But then again not everyone's the same so who really knows without more solid evidence that wasn't and can never be proven.
@@bmocaby9747he had different eye color than the real Ivan the terrible. It wasn't him. Just get over it
@@bmocaby9747 he wasn't Ivan the Terrible, but he wasn't innocent either. In court he behaved really weird indeed when compared to truly innocent people.
He said that he didn't know whether the photo on that ID card was his photo. Now how can you not recognize yourself on a photo and say that you don't know whether that is you or not 😅?
And why didn't he have counter witnesses to prove his alibi?
And his statement was also not a normal statement of an innocent man.
I was a teenager when his trial took place. It was a really big deal at the time with all sorts of legal ramifications.
So a boy grows up in awful awful conditions, goes on to inflict that pain on others. But then when he goes to a much better situation he just lives a normal life for years without so much as a parking ticket.
He had already gotten away with war crimes, probably didn't want to press his luck.
@@dandylionsloth446 you speak like you can even comprehend death, let alone killing someone
@@Polo1683Official have you committed or participated in genocide?
During the war millions of people suffered unspeakably and killed people yet Europe didn’t turn into some serial murderer waste land after the war. Clearly the majority of people were able to deal with what had happened and move on with their lives
The one thing that stands out the most to me about the whole story are all the witnesses who testified against him , all saying they were sure that the man who stood before them was Ivan the terrible. They were all wrong but not one of they believed they were.
The flaws of human memory. It's why eye witness testimony is actually super unreliable, one wrong move can prejudiced a witness and once they are convinced they have the right person any memories they have will be altered.
The one guy that asked to look at his eyes was lying snd just trying to make sure he gets hanged. The guy had already accused someone else as being ivan the terrible in a trial years earlier. I didnt like that guy. Sure demjanjuk mightve been a guard but u gotta know it all u cant just lie and claim he is someone else just to make him hang
They knew they were wrong in some cases. They were garbage too.
It’s called being a liar
He was most definitely a guard there. But i don't think he was ivan the terrible. There just wasn't enough to proof that.
It doesn't matter if you think he was or not, it's already been proven that he was not Ivan the Terrible. The Israeli government would not have let him go the first time unless they were positive he was not Ivan the Terrible...soviet records proved he was not.
@@PhoenixAscending did you read the comment though?? 🙄
@@nokimotsweni620 did you? Hes saying it's a fact he want ivan the terrible so this guys opinion doesnt matter.
Your opinion is worthless, truly.
@@PhoenixAscending Wrong, there was not enough evidence to prove he was Ivan, they did not manage to fully clear him of that accusation, there just wasn't enough proof. 2 different things.
The best channel with a hour long ads
Hey could you do one on Georgy Malenkov to round out the major post-Stalin players? Your Georgy Zhukov one was brilliant (as always).
Even if Malenkov doesn't meet the notability/influence level to get his own vid it'd get a lot of views, especially from those who've seen Jeffrey Tambor's performance of him in Death of Stalin.
My grandparents lived not far from the guy in seven hills area of Cleveland and they even gave an interview on the local television station about meeting him once at the locals farmers market where he occasionally sold produce and other stuff. No one ever knew about his past there until the feds showed up
We live such comfy lives, I don't think we can accurately judge how we would act if we were in his shoes. We all think we would be moral and bravely face death to avoid killing others but the innate self preservation instinct is strong. In war times, your locus of caring narrows to those closest to you. If you're just throwing a switch on a machine or guarding for example, you can rationalise that you aren't really responsible for the deaths because you didn't set up the camp etc. If it's a choice between that and slow certain death yourself, I get why a person makes that choice. It's terrible they were put in that position to begin with. If 50+ % of Soviet pows died, I don't think we can really comprehend what their living conditions were like. This man had to live with shame forced upon him by evil men who captured him and did god knows what to him. It's not right. That German judge would 99 times out of 100 save his own skin if someone put a gun to his head guaranteed!
There are very few cases of soldiers killed because they refused to murder. In fact, the stories may all be apocryphal.
Cool motive, still genocide.
@@James-gk8ip No one is saying that but being a guard at Sobhibor got you out of the POW camp where you were would almost certainly die.
Doesn't really justify what they did or means they should be allowed to live easy lives after the war
@@dbensdrawinvids8390 oh no. You're one of those "If I was there I would have been a hero." kind of guys aren't you? It's very easy to judge with hindsight from a comfortable home with comparibly minuscule worries in life. It's much harder to actually make a decision about your own life and death, especially if the decision was between being worked to death in a POW camp or turning against the groups that genocided your people during your childhood.
An amazing pick, ive read about this "Ivan", so im intrigued. : )
There's a full netflix documentary on him, well worth a watch as it's an insane story full of twists and turns well worth seeking it out. "the devil next door" it's called.
I was born and raised 20min west of Cleveland. I remember this being all over the national and local news when I was kid.
Very good documentary, Simon. I personally think that Demjanjuk and his family were in denial about his past as a Sobibor guard.
Too many coincidences from the past and present. Even so, he wasn't the feared "Ivan the Terrible."
Agreed with you Paul, like they say there is " no smoke with out fire" this guy ( Demjanjuk) certainly had some skeletons and I am pretty sure the family must have got wind that some screw was indeed loose. Thanks.
IDK how to feel about people who are given the option of die a slow horrible death or be a guard at a place that kills people. Ive never been presented with that option so wont say for sure that i would choose honor over life but I would like to think I would.
That’s not the case with Nazis in concentration camps. They had many options to be transferred
@@verstappen9937 but he wasn't a nazi, he was a Soviet POW. The soviets were on the list of undesirables. The choice before him was join or die.
So you might be genocidal?
@@jesipohl6717 you're a hypocrite. You have no idea what you would do in the same situation either. I get the feeling you're only brave online so you'd fold quicker than the towels I just pulled out of the dryer.
Great video 👏🏼 thank you!
Fantastic video
One of the “eye witnesses” had dementia...
One of the terrifying things about this biography is that although he did very horrific things and very nearly escaped justice; he also nearly was party to injustice where another criminal could escape justice and legal representatives would be injured or threatened for doing their job, possibly peoples' desire for justice may even mean that "Ivan the Terrible" had a few more years of freedom while there was a distraction. Lastly it is worth noting that this man is not unusual research in the USA has shown that people even not in desperation will follow horrible orders, what one may do to try and save ones life especially if you had experienced the starvation and executions of the Soviet 20's & 30's is beyond guessing. If you want something to lift you if temporarily from the horror of the Eastern front, the watch the film "V for Victory" about prisoners escaping from a football match. This true event unlike the film, which is set in Paris, took place in Kiev with prisoners there. However of the horrors and war crimes of world war two let us never forget!
Your comment is unreadable due to your absolute butchering of grammar and punctuation. How the f*ck do you put together a “paragraph” that poorly?
I like that quote, "It's up to each of us to decide."
Good video 👍
I remember seeing a documentary about this guy. Some of that court footage is haunting.
On a lighter note, seeing the auto-generated captions' various misspellings of "Demjanjuk" is very amusing.
I remember George Floyd.
@Thomas Pickens strange pfp for an atheist. I guess to bait other atheist/agnostic trolls. 🤷🙂
Understood more and learned more from this than the entire ordeal of the Netflix documentary. Outstanding
Watched the Netflix Doc quite a while back and I've been waiting for a Biographics on him ever since.
Seeing all the different ways the subtitles tries to spell Ivan's last name is ki d of entertaining.
You should do a biographical on Leni Riefenstahl
Came here to say the same thing
Considering their abysmal track record on presenting factual information about the nazis, this video included, I'd rather they just stayed away from covering the nazis altogether. Of course, nobody can say, what wou you do if you could make a ton of money by inciting conspiracy, racial hatred, and violence by providing an apologetics to join in genocide (sarcasm). I'm sure a video about Leni would be more of the same. Garbage ahistorical analysis.
Im really glad I watched this video. I was a kid when he went on trial in Germany, but I wasnt alive when he had the issues in the 80s with Israel and being called Ivan. This was fascinating to learn.
Would you consider doing a biographics on Fritz Bauer?
I think his role in trying to get Eichmann to justice and his position in post war Germany would be really interesting.
I was a 20 yo soldier in the idf at the time , and i remember we ,and the whole country was transfixed to his trial, it helped us to remember the Holocaust but also,after his release to move on ,from news to history, The terrible horror and cruelty of the Holocaust cant be avenged any more,but it must be remembered and we must learn from it,never again a thing like this should happened,but did we learned?
Your country is basically the same.
Your whole "country" (cough cough, illegal and illegitimate occupation) basically is Nazi Version 2.0 lmfao
Good question. Perhaps stop oppressing Palestinians?
The Netflix documentary on this guy was intense. Worth watching!
Why did you leave out the part where the very same supposed eye witnesses also claim to have killed him during the escape?
I grew up very close to this area and my family remembers this trial well. One thing that was said that stands out to me is in the Netflix documentary on this. Is when one of the Israeli prosecutors asked the German prosecution why they found him guilty in the Berlin re-trial in the 90s the reply was essentially, "In Germany, we have our documents. Your evidence is the stories you choose to believe."
Basically, it was Israels judicial system that did not believe that the survivors were being honest. And it makes the guilty verdict in Germany that much more powerful. This is the country that perhaps views that period with the second most disdain.
Also, on his naturalization papers Demjanjuk wrote that he was at Sobibor during the war which is a huge red flag.
My great-grandparents were married in Passau after the war (my grandma was Polish, and my grandpa was American). To get married, they had to have witnesses, but they had nobody. There was a young couple behind them who also needed witnesses. They both stood for each other to get married. Neither couple knew each other and never saw one another again after that. My great-grandparents moved to Ohio after the war. Fast forward 20 years later… John was arrested, and it’s all over the news. The same couple who stood for my grandparents to get married was Ivan (the name he used when they met him) and his wife, Vera. They lived only an hour away from John and Vera. Crazy what a small world it can be! And how close they were to an individual who helped murder thousands…
I could be wrong, but I heard that there wasn't one Ivan the Terrible. Rather it was a label given to numerous Ukrainian guards who worked at the camps. Over time it became something of a myth and so former prisoners and historians mistaken Ivan as one man who was responsible for numerous vile acts that should've been contributed to several men. That's the story I heard.
Great Video, Could you please cover Daniel O' Connell or Charles Stuart Parnell. Thanks
Other than ageing, He looks identical to Ivan the terrible.
What a monster
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For the record Grozny doesn't actually mean terrible it's a mistranslation. It actually means formidable or fearsome.
Does facial recognition software offer any additional insight into his case today?
I just read Philip Roth's 'Operation Shylock' a few months ago. It's set against the backdrop of the Demjanuk trial (Roth visited Israel in '88 and briefly attended the trial).
It's always fascinating and terrible when disussing these crimes, both from a legal standpoint but also a moral one. As other people have said, he had been tried, convicted and scentenced to death on a wave of testimony from people who swore it was him - and they were all wrong. If the USSR had alsted another year all the people baying for his blood would have killed an innocent (in respect to the crime he was charged with) man. I wonder how the person who threw acid in the lawyers face, someone who was willing to step up and do something they likely found dporable just to support the justice system, feels knowing they had the wong person?
And with any of these trials there are two things that I can't help focus on:
1. People should be convicted by a tiral of their peers, but that means finding people who went through that same event. How can we say we would have done differently if we've never been in that position? This wasn't just a 'gun to the head' hypothetical, it was a systematic governmental machine putting pressure on an entire race. I can't even begin to empathise with people in his position because it is literally something I can't comprehend.
2. If he had a jury of his peers, people who were in the same position and given the same choice but chose not to help to save themselves, the question I would ask is "Was his decision motivated for gain or by greed?" If he did what he did because he wanted to then it is fairly obvious; however if it was out of fear then can you blame somebody for being weaker than you were? After all, where is your limit, and what would you want someone stronger than you to think?
Exactly what I was thinking. It really is one of those cases that has no real answer or solution that everyone can agree on. I suppose it comes down to the philosophical underpinning that one subscribes to like Utilitarianism or Kantian ethics.
This argument is empty. You are apologising for aspects of genocide. If you find participating in genocide understandable maybe rethink your own morality and principles. Plenty of people with far more to lose opposed the nazis, from royalty to imported and refugee afro-germans tolerated basically as minstrels. People like Josephine Baker a dancer and performing artist, an African American and queer woman from the US actively fought the fascist regime in Paris. You have a choice until you are dead and your choices determine how you will be remembered. We do not need sympathy for evil only an understanding as to how easily privileged people choose comfort over principles. Gross. I'm done with this guys channels, zero responsibility.
@@jesipohl6717 They didn't apologize for anything. You certainly aren't the brightest bulb in the box are ya?
@@jesipohl6717 I guess double jeopardy no matter if it is a American concept of lack of Justice. Does not a thing to you? The pursuance of man. Literally tortured him until he died. Sorry this video did not tell you this part of the story. But I know this story and this was a miscarriage of justice on the hands of Isreal and United States. All the evidence points to it. Rather I or you like it or not!😐
@@jesipohl6717 DUDE. Actually watch to the END of the @#$&ing video. Simon condemns the guy. What're you TALKING about with this "zero responsibility" BS???
My great-uncle worked with John Demjanjuk in the 60s and 70s. He knew him, not well, but he did. Like many in the Cleveland area, we come from families that were fleeing the Nazis. Being Polish, not all my family made it to America and more than one ended up in the camps. My uncle would never say if he felt Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible and he passed away before it was determined that he wasn't, but a traitor guard instead. Demjanjuk's reputation was destroyed in this community long before it was determined what he did vs. what he was accused of doing. Of course, when he came back before being deported again, there was no "welcome". No one in the tight Polish/Russian/Slavic communities at that time would've welcomed him.
Kurwa we must do what we can to survive
@@Polo1683Official Yes. It's amazing how people in the internets are claiming how they "would do the right thing" but when there is a gun pressed to your forehead, roughly 100% of those same people would do things to save themselves. It is a evolutionary thing to do absolutely everything in order to survive. If not for yourself, than for your family. There very, very few who just calmly chooses to die. There are some but our of 7.5 billion people, only fraction of a fraction..
We who will never have to make that kind of choice (hopefully) cannot be justified in condeming a whole group of people who by the threat of death did what they needed to survive. It is naiive to think that if everyone would have refused, nothing bad had happened. Absolutely incorrect, sooner or later, a person would be found who wanted to live more than wanted to die and all the people refusing to follow orders and getting killed for it achieved nothing.
I could understand some form of punishment from the psychological viewpoint, the survivors and humanity needs to see the those part of the evil regime punished. Some amount of years in jail sounds acceptable compromise. What i cannot ever understand how death penalty would be a acceptable punishment for that.
"Killed if you don't participate, killed if you do".
It is wrong of those who first impose the threat of death to force them do things but it is also wrong for those who impose that threat again for making a choice to live.
If that were the case, no one would've stood up to the Nazis & everyone would've just capitulated & there wouldn't have been the camps. That wasn't the case, was it? Instead of fighting like his other countrymen did, he took the easy way out. Betrayed his country & humanity to serve the inhuman.
@@alaric_ Yeah cute sentiment and all but the man still lied about his life and lived a cozy life for years and when his history was revealed he pulled the "I was just following orders" card so no matter the reason he wasn't the good guy here
My grandpa Johnny Kmets worked with him at Ford. My grandpa said that John would brag about killing Jews during the Holocaust. It's such a weird feeling having some small connection to all this.
You Should do a biographics about Rudolf Hess, being the only inmate at Spandau Prison.
He wasn’t Ivan and he wasn’t innocent
Holodomor, mentioned briefly in the beginning, is not mentioned enough. It took more estimated lives than the Holocaust. If you have not heard about it, I suggest reading into.
@@PoeV2 There is evidence that the famine was a purposefully completed action taken by the Soviet government against the Ukrainian people. If I purposefully put into polices aware that millions will starve due to my actions
or I industrial murder millions of people, the intent and the outcome are the same. I see very little difference in what the communists did in the 1930s compared to what the Nazis did in 1940s.
@@PoeV2 You fall likely into one of these categories:
1. Refuse to acknowledge the evidence present to understand it was man made famine targeted directly at the Ukrainians and others they considered dissidents. The initial policies, the know affects, the policies adopted after the famine gripped the country, their known affects, all point to the intentionality of the famine, which is murder
2. Just have not done enough research which I suggest you do
3. A typically leftist apologists justifying every communist atrocity resulting in millions of lost lives as just “‘mismanagement”.
It's a little outdated as far as new research goes but Robert Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow (1986) is a good place to start for anyone interested.
Imagine being so poor, that you could only afford one pair of underwear. Yikes!!
That would be horrific
And people freak out about not getting the newest iPhone...
Did you watch the Netflix? Don't you see how he relishes in this? He's smiling during everything. Like he's still enjoying it. The way he put his hand out to the witness. The way he insisted the witness approach him face to face. This is so typical of all serial killers who just enjoy it all.
What a load of garbage. Demjanjuk extended his hand out as a gesture of peace, And Eliyahu Rosenberg decided that it was better to commit perjury instead. Eliyahu Rosenberg had written in Yiddish, by his own fare hand that he had personally witnessed Ivan the Terrible be killed in August 1943. For effect he then performed and said that Demjanjuk was him. He lied. Demjanjuk had children, served in the Red Army fighting against the Nazis to liberate Europe and was captured as a POW, at a time when Soviet POWs were dying like animals. He was a pawn of the Cold War. The evidence used at trial was mostly fabricated by the KGB.
Excellent analysis Simon. Thanks.
Here are some suggestions for another video - all interesting people
April Ellison/William Ellison Jr. (1790-1861) - a freed slave from South Carolina who became a successful slaveowner and planter himself before the civil war.
Anthony Johnson (1600-1670) - a former indentured servant who became one of the first African American property owners in America and a successful tobacco farmer.
Lord Mountbatten (1900-1979) - Prince Philip’s uncle and Queen Elizabeth’s second cousin once removed who was assassinated by the IRA
Yukio Mishima (1925-1970) - Japanese poet, author, playwright, actor and nationalist who committed seppuku after a failed attempt to overthrow Japan’s 1947 constitution.
Robert Walpole (1676-1745) - British politician who was the first prime minister of Great Britain from 1721 until 1742 under King George I and King George II.
Eamon DeValera (1882-1975) - prominent political leader in 20th century Ireland who, after the Irish war of independence from 1919 to 1921, was in the public eye for over forty years from 1922 until his death were he served as head of government (Taoiseach/prime minister) and head of state (president). He was nearly executed in the Easter Rising in 1916 and was key in putting into place the new constitution on 1937. A very prominent Irish figure and one of the most important in Irish history.
George Eastman (1854-1932) - American entrepreneur who founded the Eastman Kodak company. He was a pioneer of photography and a major philanthropist. He commit suicide at the age of 77 because of chronic pain from health problems.
Emile Zola (1840-1902) - French novelist and journalist who is an early practitioner in the literary genre, naturalism. He was involved in the Dreyfus affair, a political scandal in France. He died in 1902 at the age of 62 from accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.
ryoichi sasakawa (1899-1995) - Japanese businessman, politician, sports administrator, philanthropist and was criminal who helped Norman Borlaug with his Green Revolution.
Seamus Heaney (1939-2013) - Irish poet, playwright and translator who won the 1995 Nobel prize for literature and wrote a poem about The Tollund Man comparing his cause of death to The Troubles in Northern Ireland.
W.B. Yeats (1865-1939) - Irish poet, dramatist and writer with an interest in the occult who helped found the Abbey Theatre and was a senator for the Irish Free State. He is one of the most important historical figures in Irish history.
Prince Phillip, The Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021) - husband and consort to Queen Elizabeth who served in the navy as a young man, serving in the Second World War. He died recently so it would be a good choice.
Jordan Belfort (born 1962) - former stockbroker, author, motivational speaker and convicted felon who committed fraud via stock market manipulation. His book was the inspiration behind the film The Wolf of Wall Street starring Leonardo DiCaprio in 2013.
Andrew Cunanan (1969-1997) - spree killer responsible for five murders before his suicide via gunshot. His victims include Gianna Versace and Lee Miglin.
Lee Miglin (1924-1997) - American business tycoon, real estate developer and philanthropist who was spree killer, Andrew Cunanan’s third murder victim.
“The Count of Saint Germain” (1691 or 1712 -died 1784) - European Adventurer who achieved prominence in high society in the 1700’s. His real name is unknown while his background is obscure. He claimed to be the son of Prince Francis II Rakoczi of Transylvania. He was arrested for suspicion of espionage during the Jacobite rebellion but was released without charge.
Julia d’Aunigny (1670 or 1673 -died 1707) - 17th century French opera singer who was known for her flamboyant lifestyle. Her father was a secretary to the master of the horse to King Louis XIV. She was a keen sword fighter, cross-dressed and tried to run away with a female lover after killing a man in a duel. She died at the age of 33.
Past American presidents, British prime ministers, monarchs and Roman emperors would be good as well.
I am curious if “beyond a reasonable doubt” applies to stripping of US citizenship. I do know lying about your application at any point is grounds for removal even years later.
Unless you come through the right ports of entry ;)
It can be.
I remember when I was a kid in Cleveland, this was all over the local news. I remember most adults at the time wanting the old man to be left alone.
It’s insane how rumor and hearsay about something that happened 80 years ago is enough to get sentenced to death.
It is even more impressive that a foreign state can enter another country, kidnap a citizen, and publicly make a trial on video of said person and noone does anything to stop it.
@@blakecampbell6549 That would be because it was Adolf Eichmann...
Damn if only he was a rocket scientist so he can get away with being a Nazi……
If had been he wouldn't have been working at a camp tho.
@@kieranklein2527 The V2 programme employed slave labour from the camps to assemble the rockets and build the facilities - and those rocket engineers knew that perfectly well
Or a biologist/medical doctor at Unit 731 in Japan.
I remember this case from its beginnings in Cleveland. War is hell and can bring out the worst in humanity. This was the case with John D., but would forgiveness have served a greater good considering the tens of thousands with more blood on their hands who were not hunted down and prosecuted so relentlessly. Idk.
I was like wow this is a super dark mega projects. He does this channel too. Wow that was confusing. Lol
I think this is one of those situations where it's too easy to judge him for his crimes today when we never faced the decisions he had to make. We all would like to think that given the choice we'd die rather than go along with the horrors of the holocaust, but the reality is that when faced with extreme torture or death most people will do horrible things to save themselves.
People were faced with the same decision, but they chose not to become a monster and killer. The very existence of them proves there was more than one choice. As a result, he must face punishment, especially if he is Ivan the terrible, who carried it out with almost excitement. If you or I had been faced with it, and chose what he had, we would have to deal with the consequences just the same.
A lot of Germans actually fled their nation once Hitler took over. Because they knew they will be forced to work for the nazis if they stayed. I like to believe that I would have probably chose to leave(but then again, I am gypsy so I think that would have been the only option for me).
Exactly. Id be burning down cities if it meant that i can live. Nobody can tell how they react to a trauma of that magnitute before it has happened.
@@dork7546 I am also a so-called "subhuman" in Hitlers eyes, but i think of this scenario like if i was born a german instead.
Well that might be true for the auxilliary police units conscripted among Soviet POWs but it is definetely not true for german soldiers.
Altough almost every guard who was trialed said they were just compliying to orders from above in order not to get into trouble (called Befehlsnotstand in german) historians found out that there were hardly any reports of SS-guards being court-martialed because they did not want to take part in the extermination. In fact there were more trials against guards who stole money, jewellery or other valuables from the jews themself.
Meaning that in no time it was actually dangerous to a german guard to say "Hey i dont really want to send these 200 children into the gas-chamber"
You might have been despised by the other more cruel guards but you didnt really have to fear for your life.
I don't actually think you or I, given one option - being shot dead - or another, taking part in genocide, would ever choose to sacrifice ourselves. We humans are selfish creatures. Self-preservation is our one, and often our only, true objective. Yes, we have others, but they are all variable, they come and go, they change with time - the one constant is self-preservation. This is what terrifies me; that if the only alternative were certain death, I would most likely choose to prolong my life at the expense of others'. And so would you, and probably every other person who's commented here. It's scary that it is that easy to transform a man into a monster.
God help you. There are too many times in history that good people chose honor over life.
@@brucecreswell136 There's no reason to insult the op, at least they are willing to open a discussion openly about what others may not be willing to admit. Discussions that will help humans for the future. We'd all like to think of having honor, but could you? Could I? Id like to think yes but I wasnt there.
Can I speak in absolutes and say I could? again I want to say yes but I wasnt there and the life I'm living is vastly different. Have a good day.
@@brucecreswell136 yes many he did. Many more that didn't. And until you're in the same situation, I'd be careful before demonising others for making the same choice you probably would. Everyone would like to think they are moral and honourable until they are in the same situation.
How do know if the real Ivan the Terrible, assuming it wasn't this John guy, wasn't a sadist or psychopath that gladly agreed to murder for the Nazis instead of the narrative that we are being fed that his choice was either 'guard or death'?
Remember “I was just following orders” is not a valid defense.
It actually is. It's called "superior orders" or "Nuremberg defence" and has worked many times. The catch is what order you are obeying. If the order is blatantly illegal, then it's usually not a valid defence. If it's a grey area though (or you didn't know it was illegal or would lead to something illegal), it often is recognized as a legitimate defence and the person is found not guilty.
@@AD-df5tm "Hans guard that gate" is not an illegal order i guess, even if that gate leads to Auschwitz.
‘Good soldiers follow orders’
Tell that to the clones who executed order 66, the most horrific crime history has witnessed
It is if its the allies
I'd love to see one about Alvin York, he was an Americam Infantryman from WW1, he was made famous when he killed 25 Germans and captured 132 with a bolt action rifle. Winning a medal of honor in the process as a part of the 82nd Infanty Division, the precursor to the 82md airborne. He was a devoted Christian who nearly didn't go because he thought it was against his religion. After the war he ended up dieing in poverty with many debt problems.
War is against Christianity.
@@jesipohl6717 not necessarily.
You should do a video on Maradona. I know you don't do many videos on athletes but I think a video on his life would be interesting.
Given the chance I feel most people would choose to be a guard over certain death
Anyone, given enough power and incentive by a government can become a monster. Remember this when you give away your rights in this country.
This is so ironic I was just watching the special on netflix the night before this released and wondered if anyone covered it xD thanks for the upload Simon and writers 👍
I watched video and have been reading comments and there is one explanation missing out about situation in Eastern Europe during WW2. The people living there who didn't support Nazis or USSR were caught in impossible situation. after 1939. For most of Eastern Europe USSR terror came first. Add fact that Germans brought back some national symbols for those territories and living through USSR horror regime their leaning towards supporting Germany was almost nobrainer. That somehow always is left out of general situation description discussing East European Nazi collaborators.
Please post more videos about
-Presocratic philosophers
-Thales of Miletus
-Empedocles
-Parmenides
-Heraclitus
-Anaksagoras
-Zeno Of Citium
-Al Kindi
-Al Farabi
-Avicena
Please don't, we need dialogue that includes people.
You rock Simon...
Gimme that Sweet Sweet Legendary Bearded Biographics British smoothness... All. Day. Long.
No wonder this guy's ego is somewhat warped. On his other channels he is drunk af and every other word is an f-bomb.
Because reality presented with emotion helps American imperialism. Ye hya!!
The cold war is over.
?
@@danielboard9510 Or in my case, Canadian Imperialism Eh? 🇨🇦 🍁
🤣🤣🤣
Quite a few who attended the Wannsee Conference - the meeting that set the Final Solution in motion - ended up as clerks and businessmen, allowed to live their lives in Germany like nothing had happened.
I really appreciate how you don't glorify any of the violence in these videos.
Theres alot to unpack here, but my take away is fairly straight forward...Ivan did want almost anybody who's denouncing him today would do. He survived by making a choice between 2 shitty alternatives. In all reality, none of us can make judgement on this man without having to face living his life.
Great video Simon, keep up everything you do...
he brought it all on himself.
@@stanbrekston Yeah, like you had to face that choice before.
Thank you
Do a biographics on Mark ''Chopper" Read
Honestly, I don't much care, except for the true monsters at the top, the people trying to save their own skin are perhaps cowards, but I won't judge em.
Hearing the stories here about jailing 94 year old accountants mostly sounds pathetic to me.
I agree. Most humans aren't going to fight back against the people at the top. It's unreasonable to expect them to, when most of us wouldn't either.