Thanks for watching 💙If you enjoyed the episode please consider subscribing to support the channel. If you'd like to support the channel further you can do so here: - Patreon: www.patreon.com/gamediscourses Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/gamediscourses
But that also works in FFXIII, where your freedom is stripped and your will becomes literally enslaved by the Fal'Cie. Linearity and restriction both work in their narrative favor.
@@EloahAloha That relies on the narrative being actually interesting in some way. FFX merely had a boring narrative, whereas FFXIII was a shitty Call of Duty campaign slapped together in just over a year because Squeenix didn't know what they were doing and wanted to pander to the kind of 12 year old whelps who screech "MLG PRO GAMING!" and "360 no scope!"
This channel commits itself to wonderful insight and thoughtful commentary that resists the banal cynicism of dullards, but I swear half of its viewers' comments are just kneejerk screeching with very little grey matter driving coherently toward a conclusion. Lol FFXIII might not be what you're used to, but calling it sewage is for group-think Asmongold fans overreacting to everything that isn't accommodating their preferences - reductive bashing is just not critical and creative thinkers who are fans of the Final Fantasy mission of experiencing a new game each time *with fresh eyes,* of reinventing itself each time from virtually nothing. It's a solid game, just not one you're used to. Final Fantasy doesn't really have bad main entries, though people screech like they do because a game isn't tailored to their specific flavor.
The en route collectibles like the Al Bhed primers, crests, Jecht spheres, and optional treasure at each temple's cloister of trials also helped to make the linearity more interesting, especially on subsequent playthroughs. The "corridors" are made inherently interesting by being populated with stuff that the player wants to interact with. Still wish you could go to Bevelle properly though.
FFX was my first FF when it came out, so I'm deeply fond of it, so had not idea for a long while folks weren't into its linearity. I got FF XIII as a gift when I got a PS3 and played 25 hours of it, got stuck at a boss after 2 losses (I think roughly where the game does open up), told myself I'd come back to it, and that was back in 2013. I never did pick it up again.
@@thenonexistinghero same, i think gaming changed when ffx came out and those that loved ff up to 8 ignored the fact ffx was boring and so much smaller than the ps1 games with a dumbed down battle system - i hated ffx from the start and to this day it's my least favorite final fantasy made
Another few differences which really bear considering, FFX had a lot more side content. This meant that, even though it was mostly corridors, you got quickly distracted. Take the chocobo eater alternate path, or the yojimbo cave, and of course blitzball. Also, ffxiii felt more oppressive because you didn't really have any freedom in leveling up. Now, the sphere grid is hardly a master example of multi-classing, but it gave *some* choices, which FFXIII never does in its crystaium. The inability to pick characters, or their classes, or their levelling until really late into the game made the corridors feel much more restrictive
At the beginning you're indeed not free to choose what to do (same for FFX btw, if you except Khimari who has a more open Sphere Grid, the other characters are in a linear path) When you reach chapter 10 in FF13, every characters get every roles and the crystarium becomes very expansive after the first Boss. So you have 6 roles with little CP where you can go wherever you want. FF13's Crystarium is not as linear as it looks.
@groudonvert7286 I agree with what you're saying overall, but the detail is really important on that. Chapter 10 is insanely deep into the game before a player feels like they have any choice over what they're doing levelling wise. Which means that, all that way, they're getting upset both that the story & level design is linear, and that the levelling is linear. Even the decision to cap the tree preventing you from overlevelling feels like a linear trap. (And it probably had the unintended secondary effect of causing players like me to farm to make sure I always hit that cap, making the areas drag out that much more) FFX's levelling wasn't all that much more free to begin with, but it did give some small sense of freedom, and also promised much wider freedom later on. The existence of locked nodes & key spheres were hints at how free the system would become, and even early on you got some key spheres to allow you little elements of choice. I remember having Auron abandon his path extremely early to join Khimari on Yuna's path, because I thought having 3 white mages would be useful (I was young, and I was wrong). While that wasn't a smart choice, the fact that I could do that at all speaks wonders about the freedom you had in that early game. Aside from that though, even in the end game I don't feel like you get that much choice in FFXIII. Which class to level up first maybe, but not much more than that. Each character has the 3 they're good at, and the 3 they're not. That's not inherently a bad thing ofc, plenty of other games (many in the FF series) give you less choice on leveling than that. But the system seems to imply freedom of choice (those tiny branches for 1-3 nodes), without actually granting any, which adds more to that sense of entrapped frustration.
@@phill8223 Chapter 10 is basically the middle of the game. Secondary roles ask a lot of investment in them, but they're far from bad. Lightning's worst role is actually her Medic (who's supposed to be a main role). Fang's Sentinel is not that great either (mainly because Snow is much better, but her lack of HP and good oriented Sentinel weapons makes her worse than Lightning as the main Sentinel), while she's one of the best Ravager in the game. Investing too early in secondary roles is not a good idea (except for Fang Ravager and Hope/Vanille's Commando, so you have more options), but once the main role lose their advantages (stage 10 is mainly there for stats and last Accessory slot), the secondary roles become much more interesting.
What I think worked so well in FFX with regards to linearity is that, diagetically, your party is on a very linear path for most of the storyline. It's only as that path for the summoner diverts and there is the experience of a loss of direction and linearity which the group encounters within the story that the map and, subsequently, the world opens up and becomes less linear (or at least it feels that way to the player.) I think there's a sort of ludonarrative assonance in how this plays out in the game. Excuse the self-indulgent description.
@zhen3142 lol, I used a few media criticism terms that are hyperspecific so it wouldn't mean much to you unless you're into that kinda stuff. "Diegetically" means within the story or internal to the story; when Seymour first appears in Luca there's diegetc music that plays (i.e. there are musicians in the story who are playing the music) but the track that plays in the game's opening at the blitzball match in Zanarkand is non-diegetical (i.e. it's external to the story; nobody is playing that song on speakers in the blitzball stadium and noone inside the story can hear that track, but when sin fires on Zanarkand during that scene those shooting sounds _are_ diegetical.) It's a bit hard to get your head around at first but basically I'm just saying that the game played in a linear way while the internal logic of the story also felt as though the summoner was on a pre-defined path, but both of these factors change at the same time towards the end of the game which makes the vibe of the game hang together well. "Ludonarrative assonance" is a play on the idea of ludonarrative dissonance, with ludonarrative dissonance referring to conflicts between gameplay vs storyline (e.g. the story having a high-pressure, timed puzzle event to defuse a bomb but the gameplay itself allowing you to pause and take your time to work out the puzzle, as an example of ludonarrative dissonance.) Assonance is approximately the opposite (consonance is the direct opposite, where everything fits together perfectly, assonance is where things fit together quite well but not necessarily perfectly) so it just means a cohesive feel between the way the game itself plays and what's going on in the story. I would have been able to write that comment out with you those terms but it would have made it twice as long to read and this is definitely a channel that is oriented towards media criticism of games so it seemed appropriate to use those terms here. But basically it's just me saying that the vibe of the story matches the vibe of how the game itself plays but using showy words to say this.
Additionally, the central theme of FFX is death. The structure of all its environments pushing you towards an inevitable end, saying goodbye to areas and never coming back, that all had ludonarrative resonance too. And you *do* eventually get access to a world map -- coinciding with the moment where the heroes choose to reject death and embrace life.
The linearity of Final Fantasy X works better than that of Final Fantasy XIII because it offers more gameplay variety, including towns, NPCs, quests, and minigames. In contrast, Final Fantasy XIII focuses almost entirely on combat. Even when you gain access to the game’s primary sidequest, the Cie’th Stone Missions, it still consists of more combat. Additionally, areas in Final Fantasy X are shorter, allowing you to complete them before they become tiresome. This also enabled the developers to include more areas overall compared to XIII. In Final Fantasy XIII, there are fewer areas, but they are significantly longer. As a result, you’re essentially stuck in these extended sections where all you do is fight, and it soon starts feeling monotonous.
The story is explicitly about a pilgrimage, so every major story beat is structured around progressing forward toward a predetermined goal. Going A to B to C all the way to Z is the point-we know where we’ll ending up, and each step means we are closing in, gaining some new insight or tool to prepare us for that end. The narrative keeps things fresh not by surprising us with where we must go next, but by constantly challenging the why of it all. So, if the plot and progression through the world is linear, the story never is. This also does help make the intended destination less of an anticlimax because the meaning of the journey constantly evolves, and so the anticipation of getting to the predetermined end doesn’t feel predetermined.
It also helps that FFX takes you through the world. You actually get to experience the cultures, feel the terror of Sin's destruction and every character is related to the locales. In 13, characters are only connected to Bodhum and Oerba. You don't even interact with shopkeepers or even quest givers. Even the motive to save Cocoon feels so alien because all its culture is hidden behind datalogs.
That's one thing I love about FFX too, especially compared to the later games like XV and VIIR. You were new to the world of Spira but you weren't a tourist. The later games, especially XV and VIIR, allow you to explore but everything is through the lens of some kind of road trip like you were in some kind of theme park. It's particularly egregious in XV and Rebirth, especially with the latter's HUD directing you every step of the way. X feels like you are truly experiencing a totally foreign culture and immersing yourself in it.
@@12ealDealOfficial I do think Rebirth and Wallmarket feel a little touristy. But I wouldn't say FFVII OG didn't feel a bit touristy either (though in a diff way that doesn't entirely defeat your point). Meanwhile FFXV barely has locations anyway. Golden Quay and that *one* town are kinda you're two "big" locations, everything else is a small pitstop, so I think that very much contributes.
Exactly spot on. The main defense of the lack of towns and NPCs that I come across is that the party is on the run and are fugitives. I mean alright? They could've easily gotten disguises and try and go uncover. FF7 literally did this.
The only emotional reaction I had to the people and culture of FFXIII was running past some NPC in Palomporum, hearing him speak, and then going "Wait, is that the guy who voiced Zuko in the Last Airbender?!" (It was.)
I think one of the aspects that wasn't mentioned that is done well was that the party had both a short and long goal of the journey. The overall goal was to get to Zanarkand while the short goal was depending on where you were in the game and that short goal can be achieved by not going along the same straight path the whole time. Example can be once the pilgrimage starts you have Luca as the short goal which is not all one path and is broken up by a boat journey and a temple visit. Bikanel/Bevelle break up the long path by a goal of finding and then rescuing Yuna along with being on an airship. The short goal distracted from the long goal and by having that immediate finish to an event felt like you were progressing more than simply one long arduous journey.
I think that the reason why the linearity in ff13 gets so much hate is because its not just exploration, its everything. Your progression system is linear in ff13 with branches late and at extreme cost. Your equipment upgrades in a mostly linear fashion in ff13 where in ff10 there's a reasonably high amount of customization. FF10 additionally has Aeon customization, doesn't have auto-battle making choices for you, doesn't have the eidolon battles that can mostly only be beaten one way, etc. FF10 also has towns (which were mentioned in the video), the ability to go back to previous locations and real reasons to do so(Valefors overdrive, Blitzball recruitment, NPC items, celestial weapons, etc), sidequests and minigames sprinkled throughout the game(butterfly catching, Belgemines duels, Blitzball, Cactuar quest, lightning dodging, the Gagazet timing game), hidden places(sealed cavern, Baaj temple, omega ruins) and puzzles(the cloisters of trials). I don't even know if ff13 has cool weapons in any of its item chests -I'm pretty sure its just consumables, upgrade materials and weaopns that your current weapon will likely turn into when you feed it enough upgrade materials. While its true that a lot of these things were not well liked, thier presence does contribute to the idea that exploration is rewarded, and that makes ff10 feel a *lot* less linear than ff13. Its telling that not only did previous ff games give you a lot of variety when it comes to modes of play, in the games that were more linear they opened up the systems so you had more choice, giving you options whether is was by class(ff5), by character(ff4,ff9), by ability(ff6,ff7) or all three(arguably ff8). Even ff1 had you choose 4 classes from 6 options at the start. (yes, i know ff13 'opens up' in the lategame, but at that point its chapter 11 of 13 and its way too late at that point) (yes, I know ff13 is a game where it makes thematic sense for the characters to be constrained like that. There are ways to convey that that don't require *this level* of linearity)
Yeah, I think many players have trouble describing what feels wrong about FFXIII, so it gets boiled down to "linear." I agree it's probably more about pacing. FFX starts you out in Zanarkand, and makes you anticipate your return more and more with every temple you visit. The journey is very goal-oriented, giving clear justification for overcoming obstacles of all kinds. FFXIII focuses on escaping pursuers. There isn't a specific destination the player is headed towards, making obstacles feel arbitrary. Without a clear goal, players notice the linear path and feel railroaded.
The party in FF13 don't have a clear goal. They're trying to fulfil their "focus" but they don't know exactly what it is beyond a vague notion of saving Cocoon in an unspecified way. The other half of the problem is that there is very little exploring to do within each area. They are very much just corridors. And there are no other characters to talk to.
They do have a goal though. - Lightning's goal is to stop fleeing and take action. She wants to go to Eden, so she goes to Palumpolum and Hope goes with her. - Sazh and Vanille doesn't want to fight and choose to go to a peaceful place called Nautilus.
I really like your response, because that's precisely why many people who don't understand the criticism that is being made about a product end up deflecting instead of addressing the issues - people often lack the ability to put into words WHY something is bad, even though they understand, via experience, that said thing is bad, so they end up utilizing linguistic shortcuts and using minimalistic language to try to explain it; and then the detractors start discussing semantics instead of trying to understand what the issue is: "It's bad because it's linear" => "Other game is linear and you like it." "Gen 1 had sharper design with fangs and spikes." => "Voltorb is round and doesn't have any spikes." "That's not how it was done before." => "Everything needs to change, you're just being a fanboy." That's why critics are so important, we need people who are capable of putting criticism into words that can be understood by those deflectors so we can reach a common ground instead of just slapping each other because you get tired of dealing with the detractors for refusing to comprehend that the issues you have with a product are valid.
@@groudonvert7286 Yes but the point is that was still too vague. They draft ideas rather than clear goals with objective steps. "Go to Zanarkand, visit every temple along the way, and let Wakka and Tidus have their blitzball game" is more defined, immediately, than "go place to do something"
FFX has lots of optional content in just about every area you reach as well. Starting even from Kilika Woods, you have a small maze-like area that has lots of treasures, but also an optional tough enemy you can either skirt around taking a longer path or directly fight. Mii-hen Highroad has an entire lower section you can skip, but it has some unique encounters and treasures you can pick up (some requiring a chocobo). The Thunder Plains has both the lightning dodger aspect as well as the Cactuar stones, Macalania Woods has the butterfly catcher mini-game (they're not all winners), and Bikanel Island has the Cactuar hide and seek stuff. And of course Calm Lands has lots of optional stuff including the monster arena, Cavern of the Stolen Fayth, The temple with the Magus Sisters (and a chocobo race), and Chocobo Training. When doing the Cloyster of Trials there's an optional chest with usually a really good weapon to be obtained as well. There's lots of chests, NPCs (many of which give you items or supplemental information about the world), and optional areas to explore. FFXIII has basically none of that for most of the game. Even when it finally does open up a bit, the extra content isn't that interesting. FFXII kind of started this trend of "side quests" basically just being "go hunt this unique monster and (maybe) report back" that FF games haven't seemed too interested in escaping from since.
Macalania Woods is also where you unlock the optional Jecht Spheres and more additional lore and backstory for Braska, Jecht, and Auron (you can find one of the first Jecht spheres in Macalania Woods too, the one that tells of Jecht, Auron, and Braska's first meeting. There is also the optional side path (the shimmering road) that has a location needed to activate a celestial weapon. So there is a bit more going on, and the unlocking of the Jecht Spheres encourages backtracking/revisiting past locations. If you talk to the NPCs on revisits, they often have new dialogue that is reflective of the current events happening in the game, so there is a sense of time flowing and change (and gives the sense of new discovery).
A huge issue in 13 was the protag group all being equally useless as the world moves on. Right away they wonder what to do about their curse, and right up to the final boss they are still asking the same question and even after. It's a road trip where Everyone in the car keeps asking "are we there yet?" Except it about their curse.
Interesting take, I never felt FFX being linear while playing it, and never finished ffxiii because I felt there was just nothing there. The sphere grid is a perfect example as well - it's very linear, but disguises this fact with it's design
I never got to any location in several hours of play of FFX III that wasn't sections of that cavernous glowing place, XIII actively made me not care about these characters and their world because the world building failed to launch, it began in a scenario that failed to impress, in a very ugly location. In X, in the same first several hours, you have Zanarkand, a sunken mysterious ruin, and a beautiful tropical island, the plot beats have some drive to them, many more characters and ideas are established, and how they relate to each other.
FFX had a linear story and a linear progression to match. Everything is clearly explained to Tidus, the outsider, giving the player a clear window of connection to the fantasy world. The pacing and delivery of the story and accompanying worldbuilding feel natural and whole, and deliver a rich, immersive experience. FFXIII had a fractured, nonlinear story but a linear progression to deliver it with. Many important worldbuilding moments and foundational aspects of the game lore are hidden behind optional menus and buried behind uninviting text blocks the player must actively stop the gameplay and pacing to discover and interact with. Yet without that fundamental knowledge, the actively delivered story moments lack critical context and leave the player with a desire to "explore, go back and see what they missed" - when what they missed wasn't back earlier, but quietly supplied in a purely optional format the entire time. It doesn't help that the main character of the story DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE GAME.
Each area drew you in in FFX. 13 you were just running through a tunnel where most areas were "stimulating" but overwhelmingly forgettable. The story in X was connected to each zone, where it wasn't really in 13. There was no "stop and interact" with characters. Most NPCs were nameless and ran around. Even your "secondary" character list that Final Fantasy's are known for was just empty. You had the main cast, which were not very engaging running through a game where no other characters seem to exist. The level designs were on on rails. Not just linear, but that going through the levels had only 1 real path. Same with the leveling. They also had to control 1 character, which also felt limiting in combat.
In FFX, the journey across the world was pretty chill (most of the time). And most of the time, you actually could back track. And that's before you get the airship which let you revisit almost every location you'd been to previously. Not to mention the music was really, really good.
Think the big thing was there was a lot of stuff that made the world felt alive in FFX. Aside from it being a pilgrimage and having side content a lot of the story was about appreciating each of these places from the party teaching Tidus as they go. XIII's areas more or less were places the party had to run through to not get captured, that's it. So the urgency was a bigger thing than making the world feel alive. Glad they fixed that in xiii-2, thougg
Well it's pretty simple: Things happen in FFXs corridors. You meet people, there are interactions, story beats, there are things to look at, and reasons to go back. In FF XIII, the corridors are lifeless and there's nothing and no one to engage with.
You can backtrack at almost any point you want. When I have the Standard Grid, I usually get Rikku and then immediately turn around and go back stealing tons of stuff from earlier on.
Yeah, I was scrolling to see if anyone else had mentioned this. XIII allows very little backtracking other than on Gran Pulse: just about every segment of the corridor seals its entrance behind the player. It's not even just that you can't go back to the Hanging Edge, for example, but that you can't even backtrack _through_ that area. In X, while there are story reasons you can't always revisit certain areas at least until later (and, in all but the first couple of releases, practical ones introduced by the presence of Dark Aeons) you can still _usually_ turn around and go to see if anything has changed in the wake of your passage - and sometimes it has! Players don't necessarily use this ability very often, but _having_ it makes the whole thing feel less like being swept inexorably forward from one set piece to the next, even though that's precisely what's happening. The thing is, there's a ludonarrative assonance to that in XIII. The party _are_ caught up in events over which they have very little control until roughly when they reach Gran Pulse (and even then, it's more a case of their trying to work out what they can do, searching the world below for options, than of their being free). It fits the narrative… but it still makes the player feel as though they lack agency.
@@groudonvert7286 Absolutely, but those are late-game points of no return. Up until that last boundary is crossed, most areas can be revisited (though occasionally you have to move forward to overcome some story obstacle before you can go back, such as when FF9's events take you away from the Mist Continent and you have to make progress before you can return). FF13 does it the other way around: roughly the first half of the game has no backtracking whatsoever. Front-loading those restrictions, making them part of the default mode of play rather than a marker of entering the endgame, very much changes the overall experience.
@@groudonvert7286you prefer the game blocking previous areas every 5 seconds instead of literal final dungeon point of no returns, with the world being backtrackable throughout 99% of the game? Weird take.
Tidus had no real reason to explore the world- he was terrified, Wakka gave him a home, something to anchor to. He was just trying to gather his bearings, so he followed his friend and Yuna, the interesting woman he just met. FFX also is takes a tour guide approach to showing you the world. She's busy visiting temples, so she doesn't have time to stop, and Tidus must follow. It's only until the end of the game that Tidus finally cares about seeing the world he's ready to give his life to defend. Audience surrogates go a long way.
Wakka also gave Tidus hope, go to Luca and maybe you'll find someone you know/answers. And it was at Luca, where he met Auron who gave him answers, that he decides to formally join his new friends whom he's spent days/weeks with
Okay, how serendipitous that this video pops up in my timeline. I've been replaying a bunch of FF games lately as I've been building a JRPG-style indie game for the last couple of years, and as I've been playing Final Fantasy X (which I actually never played when it came out--I just watched a buddy of mine play it on his PS2 back in the day), I couldn't help but think "man, I remember playing Final Fantasy XIII when it came out, and one of the biggest criticisms of it was that it was far too linear until the very end of the game, so why doesn't that bother me while I'm playing FFX?" That thought has been living in my brain for the last month. So weird to see a video title that begs the exact same question.
Outside of the broader strokes of the story, I'd say the lack of interesting NPCs. Spira was very much full of life, meanwhile you barely talk to a human being through all of 13. But then the story also matters of course. My opinion of it was always that in X you were more or less making a beeline towards a specific destination, with a few mandatory pitstops. Anything like Bikanel was always an unplanned detour that derailed the party, but they'd always turn back towards their destination. Another big reason is that this end destination was one they didn't want to reach (and starting from Bikanel, you as the player also start to not want to) as of course it would spell Yuna's death, so there was this sense of wanting to not reach the destination. In that sense, the ever-closer destination looms over your head, a clear end in sight. The goal does not change. On the other hand, F13 starts off without much explanations, there is no real goal to all their moving around for more than half the game. I understand what they tried to do with the plot, but the characters had nowhere to go most of the time (and of course, game design mandates that you should change areas through the story). This lack of grander purpose, of (perceived) clear picture really does not mesh well with the linearity.
That's what I hated about FF13. The team DIDN'T know where to go, yet the game was wholly linear. In FF10, the team DOES know where to go, so of course they take the simplest route when possible.
For me the linearity also never bothered me much because there were still lots of secrets and sidequests. The world would open up towards the end of the game. Being able to revisit everywhere, unlock and discover new areas etc.
The reason why linearity in FF10 worked so well. It was because of the theme, characters and exploration in the game was so engaging that people don't think to themselves how linear it actually is. For most part, all games are linear. Some games are designed in such a way that it gives the player a convincing illusion of choice.
One big difference in my opinion is also character Progression. FFX sphere grid offered a lot of freedom in how you evolve your character and what way (or role) you gave them or how much of it. Meanwhile FF13's crystals, predefined roles and less flexible partybuilding in battle, underlined the feeling of being railroaded and therefor made the linear structure of the level design even harder to ignore.
@@groudonvert7286 up to a certain point in the game, yes... but even the normal spheregrid and where you move there is so much more customisable, the FF13's crystals could ever hope to be.
@@btothekfromg5973 Same for the Crystarium. Chapter 10 opens up the Crystarium so every characters have access to every roles, stage 8 to 10 asks also a lot of Points to get every nodes, the further the game goes the harder it becomes to get good Farming spot. It means you have a lot of options with few CP to spend (and secondary roles are far from bad to use). Also I should say that the Sphere Grid is tedious to fill entirely, especially if you want to have the best stats on every characters.
@@groudonvert7286 And yet you have the ability to do so, making the spheregrid nearly completely customisable (abilities excluded of course). I really don't want to Argument preference... you seem to like the crystarium more and that is valid. More Power to you... but trying to compare the linearity of these two approaches and call them equally linear... sorry, that's not a mater of opinion anymore. That's a fact and you yourself gave one of the best reasons why.
Yea, unlike 10, ff13 blocks u off from most of its awesome futuristic world. Like i was hoping Nautilus would be explorable and full of minigames like the Gold Saucer only to find disappointment. 13 isn't an awful game but it's flawed in the worst ways for an RPG. Maybe SE asking a remake of it isn't a bad idea
Blitzball rules! I always play it to get return or teleport spheres and use them to move around the sphere grid and get different magic for all my characters
the camera work definitely makes a difference. like FFX is both memorable by the locations you visit and also the way you view those locations. a lot of those moments are curated in the sense that you're controlling the character, but the camera is being framed in the way that the devs wanted you to see it. this is no longer the case in later 3d FFs, since you have full control, and (save for a few rare exceptions) the only time you experience those deliberate camera moments are in cutscenes. and i think it makes traversal somewhat less interesting, especially on linear paths. doubly so if a minimap exists, but thats another topic altogether
Been saying this is one of the problems w/ modern gaming. Everything is personally controlled and in 3rd-person. FF10 does a masterful job of framing scenarios, just like a movie director would do. I don't just stare at my PC's butt the whole game.
I felt XIII to be so incredibly restrictive after the open feel of XII which probably also played a small part. The world in XIII looks huge but feels small. FFX felt more true to size in a sense because it was easy to see what part was scenery and which parts were game environment.
Someone already said it, but the fact that X's journey is a pilgrimage makes its linearity make sense. There is a defined beginning and end, the charcaters and the story naturally follow this pilgrimage from beginning to end and knowing that the pilgrimage is all encompassing, do not very often deviate from it. XIII on the other hand has its characters move from setpiece to setpiece. They are visually stunning locales, I will give them that, but the story nor the characters have any idea why they are there. They just randomly jump from place to place waiting for something to happen, so the linearity stands out as it just being unconnected hallways that lead to a boss fight
For me the major difference was the urgency. Because the game constantly told you to keep runnjng forward it was pretty clear that you couldnt stop and enjoy the game. On the other hand ffx was a journey with a group of friends. You saw a preview of the 'ending' at the start and you kind of want to avoid getting there. You want to explore the areas you come across because this may be your final chance to see any of it It has the illusion of exploration much better than ffxiii
Ten had all sorts of goodies that rewarded exploration in its hallways, and most importantly of all people you could talk to. Treasure chests in 13 are like HEY LOOK AT ME. I also didn’t like how so much of the character’s capabilities were locked behind story fights so there was never an incentive to grind which I actually like doing in JRPGS.
I’m usually a strong defender that each game being very different is part of the unique appeal of Final Fantasy. But good lord do I want world maps back. Ever since FFX, every FF game seems to bend over backwards to show that this game doesn’t NEED a world map, but Type-0 is the one modern-style FF I’ve played that just included a world map and honestly it’s just better than every alternative they’ve offered. No million dollar set piece has ever sold the scale of a game’s world nearly as well as a great big map with a tiny little man on it.
Yes! Dragon Quest 11 is the last AAA game that had a legit world map. Yes, it was broken up differently than OG FF's and DQ's, but it did it's job in giving MASSIVE SCOPE to the world.
6:26 You are so right on this. I've been saying for years that having EVERY SINGLE GAME be 3rd-person nowadays is highly monotonous. Fixed camera angles give scope and dynamism to a world that you can't achieve just by looking over someone's shoulder all day. There's a reason FF7-10 feel so massive, even if areas really aren't. Also, like movies, it allows the team to frame shots for whatever scene it is. Fixed cameras allow developers to direct your gaze, hide limitations AND they would shorten development cycles as you don't need to detail every little nook and cranny. We need this type of game development back!
I prefer having a world map, but FFX did at least have nice towns and fun little nooks and crannies for treasure chests. X-2 also introduced nonlinear exploration of that same world, which was enjoyable.
Before watching the video: I think it's the camera. If people swung around the camera to see places they would never be allowed to visit in X, they would have hated it too.
Really like this video and you make very very valid points (every point is so strong). Wished you inserted more ff13 footage to emphasize the contrasts you highlighted.
@creggieb thank you, and I agree, the reason there's a lack of ff13 on the channel generally is it's notorious for copyright strikes. It's the only Square game that has issues with fair use and I cba to navigate the dispute process everytime 😅
I see this complaint regularly with fans of XIII why is the linearity of X acceptable but not XIII, its a fair question but I think it as you say the lack of optional content, city's/towns, npc interaction, mini games/sidequest and access to large portions of the map at a certain point, doesn't leave much desire to continue playing the game past completion of main quest.
That critic could apply to FF10 in a different way. Yes it's good to have a ton of contents to do... but most of them ask a ton of grinding as well (without speaking about some really badly designed mini-games). The sidesquests in 13 mostly involve Fights. If you enjoy the battle system (like I do), the side contents is enjoyable... especially with a battle system where grinding is unnecessary (except if you want to do the 100%).
@@groudonvert7286but my critique isn't of grinding which will often times reward you, its the access to such content and areas of the map in which you previously traversed. Im glad you enjoy XIII I'm just trying to express the broader view of why two seemingly simulator games yield very difrent reactions
@@Bevtone Sorry, I wasn't sure what you meant by that (and I won't criticize English's errors when English is not my first language lol). FF13 is sometimes called Hallway Simulator.
First thing that came to mind back then, X's party stay together, Tidus is a great stand in for learning the world and nuances of characters. I hear the name of any place in that game and I know its history what it looks like the music etc. Even the kid that wants to be a Blitzball is memorable. 13 is everyone running around like headless chickens falling out with each other non stop throwing the same 5 terms around over and over, I couldn't tell you the history of any town or army etc in that game off cutscenes alone. Literally the food plant that's it I think. I couldn't name a single place cept Gran Pulse and Cocoon but only because they say it 500 times.
I think there were other factors that fed into 13’s linearity being more pronounced, one being the level up system where you would hit points where you weren’t allowed to progress anymore and I think that was another reminder of how railroaded you were in the game. 13 had some stunning locations but because you were sprinting through (partly through plot, partly because of no gameplay reason to stay) you never got to savour them and, even worse, couldn’t return to them. The point you make about the lore being given out when you reach towns is also interesting and I think having Tidus as a character discovering the world allowed the player to do the same. Conversely, none of the characters in 13 had a clue what was going on and neither did we! So at least when I’m trudging down Mi’Hen high road I know why I’m doing it, the location’s significance to the lore AND I can grind for some loot and levels if I want to!
In 13 they all know the world they live in. I guess breaking the 4th wall to explain to each other what Fal'Cie, Cocoon, Pulse, L'Cie... means would have been the greatest idea.
Even though the game is also heavily corridor based, I never felt like I was out of control in FF10, whereas in FF13 I often felt like I had no control over what was happening. Just keep following the string and stay on the tour. I'm not even sure myself why it worked in FF10 and didn't in FF13.
I remember one of the XIII devs (Kitase maybe?) Saying that the linearity was meant tl emphasize the journey the characters were going on while becoming L'cie. just as the characters were forced on a single path to save themselves, the world itself was presented as a lonear world. The game only opens up at Gran Pulse when thry decide to fight their fates.
He's full of it. FFXIII was linear because Square-Enix thought making towns and giving it more openness with that level of graphical fidelity was too expensive. The game also doesn't open up either, it's just that 1 area. It wasn't done to benefit the game, it was done to save them money.
I can't say much about XIII because I barely played it, but in X's case it helps that the linearity is supported by the narrative, as the characters are going on a pilgrimage that is pretty much set in stone and which many groups before had walked through in the exact same way.
1) Firstly, FFX's hallway was much better designed. It had points of interaction and hidden chests, which made the scenery feel like more than just digital wallpaper for a long tunnel. Also, towards the end of the game you can trace your way all the way back to the beginning location in Besaid in a seamless way, as opposed to FFXIII where there are numerous points of no return along the linear hallway. The design is just much more impressive. 2) Secondly, the linear design fit perfectly with FFX's narrative about following a pilgrimage trail from point A to point B. The Mihen Highway is like the Yellow Brick Road from OZ - and there is very little narrative reason to stray from that singular narrative path. By contrast, there is absolutely zero narrative reason that FFXIII should have had its world designed as one long linear pathway. The only reason that the game was designed like this, was because it was easier than the alternative - but then they failed to even make this easy game design halfway interesting for the player.
The FFXIII cast was literally on the run from the authorities from the very beginning. As they tried to figure out what they could do, the one thing that was clear was that there was no way to stay put, wander around or go back. There was a narrative reason for the game to be more linear and not return to past locations. The hallways were emptier, sure. But then again, they were hiding and feeling like enemies to everyone around them for most of the time.
FF X had variety in its gameplay with puzzles/ mini games and actual towns with npcs to interact with. where as 13 is mostly just battles and cutscenes
The biggest thing is the towns/npcs. 13 has 0 areas where you can chill and upgrade/explore. It's why ff4-10 are so damn good. They're goals you reach, the reward is to wind down.
Too much fuss is being made about "linearity" in games. All games are linear and follow a timeline. A lot of games overcompensate for this now with way too much filler, pointless side quests that make no sense
Linear games are missed. Zelda lost a lot of its magic with the BOTW formula, I mean Aonuma literally stated they don't care about the story but they do about gameplay.
Yeah, I actually like some linearity in games specially in JRPG. Idk why this people wants to get bombarded with boring side quests that adds nothing to the plot or the world-building itself. That's why I feel FF5, FF6 and CT were annoying in their last chapters where is necessary to grinding (disguised as "side quest") in order to defeat the big boss with no problem
Yes! And also Final Fantasy was always pretty linear. Even though you have access to the world map, the progression was still linear until very late in the game.
XIII unfortunately just feels like a series of random levels as well, where as at pretty much any point in FFX, you can just choose to walk all the way back to Luca and then catch the ships to besaid.
I will always maintain that having a party combat system where you choose the actions of every party member will always feel more immersive than one where you choose them only for the main character while the AI controls the others. FFX does this especially well as you constantly switch the party members in and out and they all feel useful (even Kimahri as long as you give him a specific role like healing or stealing). Every FF since FFXII has felt like the party is much more distant to me, and less like a party. Tho XIII did well to give the characters separate stories for a while to get to know them better.
One thing FFX did that really jumped out to me was having the protagonist be just as clueless as the player. This detail made me forget the game is linear. That said, i have no issues with linear games.
I would add, having lived through the PS1 to PS2. Many gamers including myself were very much wanting a deeper immersive experience with their games. We wanted greater quality in games like graphics, gameplay and music. The FF series pushed very much for telling a really good story. But it lacked in areas of immersion just because what was capable of the PS1.
Yuna and the others feel like they are Part of this World like everybody. In FF13 Lightning's Group feels complety isolated from the World. There is not one NPC outside from Cutscence's that talks to you. The World is explained to a Menu. In 10 you learn about it from Characters in the Game. In 10 everybody suffers from Sin. Group and NPC's. In 13 nobody except for a Group nobody really has any trouble with what happens in the Plot. L'Cie are evil, that's it. It dosen't fell like a "Save the World from Death" Story. More like: The Group want's to get rid of there "sickness".
Go tell this to all the people who went in vacation to Bodhum and were sent to die in a WWII fascion. Or to all the people who suffer from a civil war created by the Falcie. Those things even have an impact on one of 13-2's antagonists.
@groudonvert7286 I know what you mean. But this is a small Part. Until the End it never feelt for them like the Life of everybody or the Planet is on the Line. And even in the End Coocons Fall was about 2 Min's long. Compare that to Sin or Metor in FF7. Even the Demons in FF15 or the "Zombies" (I forgot the Name) in FF16.
@@cloudxz92 The main focus of the game is how the party face a destiny they're forced to face and have no good ending. And how to save humanity of certain destruction (a common theme in the trilogy btw).
The map design was just better in X. The only place that really felt like a long slog forwards was the mihen highroad. Theres linear and there’s corridor and X didn’t feel like a corridor except the highroad even though it was linear. XIII wasn’t just linear but was severely narrow
Design Doc has a great piece on the clever things FFX does that disguises its linearity. One of the most prominent is the 'pitstops' where you would stop and talk with one of the recurring NPCs such as Maechen, Belgemine, Shelinda, Rin, Luzzu/Gatta, O'Waka, etc. These characters were clearly following Yuna's pilgrimage, commenting on current events, and they change based on what they experience on that journey just as assuredly as your main party does. They'll often gift you an item for listening to them as well. FFXIII, conversely, has no such NPCs or pitstops. Everyone just hates you for being a L'Cie, the end. No one (except for Hope's dad) even tries to reach out to you and learn more about your situation. Imagine if there was a crusading reporter who was trying to learn the truth about them even at the risk of their own life? Or a comrade-in-arms of Lightning's who wasn't given the L'Cie brand and thus can't fight well, but insists on following them anyway? Or even Barthandelus's pet bird, who is apparently his good 'salvation' half? It just feels terribly empty without any non-hostile NPCs to populate the world with.
I could be wrong but I think I remember an interview where they said that with FFXIII they wanted to replicate the linearity but bombastic nature of Call of Duty, which has been massive since those days. And if that's the case the it makes so much sense how FFXIII was designed, but as you said, it might have not been for the best depending on who you ask.
Yeah but these 2 franchises couldn't be any more alike lmao. Why is a series that's primarily an RPG take inspiration from a FPS when it comes to something as important as level design?
@Key-Knight87 I guess it's more about trying to replicate the presentation and therefore impacting the level design. Not saying it was the best source of inspiration if that was the case.
Eurogamer, "Kitase and Toriyama on the Western reaction and going multiformat": "'We did actually take a look at games like BioWare's, and Fallout as well,' [lead designer Motomu Toriyama] says. 'But rather than that, we took more inspiration from FPS games like Call of Duty and Halo.'" Kotaku, "Final Fantasy XIII Creators On The Influence of Call of Duty, Card Games & The Toyota Prius" "Toriyama told Kotaku that the design of Final Fantasy XIII doesn't follow the JRPG 'template' intentionally, a choice that has received mixed response. 'The basic RPG functions are to go into towns, prepare for battle by going to shops, then go out in the field," Toriyama explained. "In that sense, Final Fantasy XIII doesn't have towns or shops-it's more that players are thrown into a story, presented with different situations as they move forward in the field and keep progressing that way. [...] In that sense it's more similar to an FPS genre, like Call of Duty,' he said." VG247, "Where Final Fantasy Went Wrong, and How Square Enix is Putting It Right": "[W]hile Toriyama's group had already nailed down FFXIII's story, lore, and characters, the expression of those elements as a video game remained murky. By some accounts, the battle mechanics weren't fully locked down until six months before FFXIII launched in Japan. [...] Toriyama admits the final product was rushed through a short production timeline. 'Final Fantasy XIII was mainly criticized for its linear game design,' he says. 'There are several reasons for the game’s linearity. With a limited amount of development time and resources, we made the game linear in order to maximize the players’ gameplay experience and to provide the same type of gameplay experience to all players. [...] But on the other hand, it led to players feeling like the majority of the game was a tutorial. I believe this was a big flaw in the game." tl;dr Final Fantasy XIII was a rush job. They had no clear direction and fumbled around looking for a way to make the game work, so they settled on turning it into a corridor shooter rather than an RPG.
I still make the argument that, in every gameplay sense, ff13 is restrictive and linear but ffx is actually very free. FF13's crystarium gives an illusion of choice in growth, but no matter what you do lightning will never get a higher level medic spell than cura. Meanwhile, in ffx anyone can do anything basically at any time and create many different ways to play through the game. Weapon upgrades and customizations in ff13 are mostly just linear paths of putting materials into a weapon until it gets pre-set stat upgrades and bonuses, but ffx gave you the ability to put just about anything on any weapon or armor provided you had the materials for it, which again increases replayability, as you might have access to totally different tools and stat spreads between playthroughs. Every playthrough of ff13 feel basically the same, but no two playthroughs of ffx ever feel exactly alike, in spite of the fact both games ultimately have you travelling in straight lines.
Ffx was game you could have fun in. Not once did I ever feel like I had to grind unless I had too. I could pick 3 people and run, but I could also play around with other characters too and level them if I liked them. For a long time I didn't really use lulu I always used brute strength, but once I started using her I had fun with her, as well as when I gave Yuna a black magick spell cleaned house. Ff13., was just a slog, I felt like I was never doing anything right, I constantly got stuck and felt like I had to grind to get past what some would probably call basic bosses or enemies. I can't begin to to tell you how many times I got stuck on Odin, Shiva, and a few other bosses because I just couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. And that damned battle change system, it felt like you had to change they way you played 99 times through multiple fights and God forbid if one person wasn't what you needed. Hell at one point I think you only have two people and one of them was a whiney asshat who bitched and moaned about snow being a dick the whole time. I have not to this day beaten ff13, and probably never will. Haven't beaten ff13-2 but got pretty far in it just didn't bother beating it and. I conquered ff13-3 essentially where lightning is like a god or something saving souls. Ff13 sucked so hard.
FFX was overall more coherent in literally mapping out the story. None of the map felt like a waste. When you revisit later you get memories of what happened when you were at each first location. By the time FF13 came around the fatigue was already setting in with FF games.
Very well put, probably the best analysis about linearity in both games! There's something you said that also caught my attention, and I guess that explains the oddness felt in FFXV: the diversity of locations and the lore in each one in FFX (and also in XII). FFXV lacks too much of that and the missions feel pretty repetitive
Ff13 is confusing until you understand what the hell they’re saying, and once you do it’s boring. It’s also so wide scope-hope just secretly hates snow for like 30 hours, lightning is incredibly stoic, snow is kind of an idiot- the characters take a massive back seat. FFX, the characters interacted, talked to each other, emoted. Idk why since FFX the “party” has felt like they don’t matter in the games. It’s more important that some npc is a surprise immortal being than the characters being interesting or enjoyable
I actually love a game that’s confident enough in its story and world building to take me down a linear path. FFX had those dynamics, plus an engaging battle system that really forced me to think about every move. FF13 could have been just as great, if not better. I think the problem is the places that could have been explored more were treated just as another “level” of dungeon crawl, mixed in with a narrative that only came full circle if you read the lore files. There wasn’t anything to break up the monotony of gameplay until late game, and there was rarely any interacting with the world outside of monster encounters. The world was beautiful, but it just felt like set dressing where as FFX felt real and relatable. I feel like a FF13 remake wouldn’t have to change much about its world and story. Just make it explorable and interactive, and the rest will fall into place. They had a good idea, but the execution was flawed.
There's linearity and then there's walking in a straight line. Ff13 was painful as literally had no variation. Ffx did have things to discover and you could backtrack a little.
It felt like FFXs linear world felt like it took less time to complete with clear objectives in each one with fun things to do or find. FF13 felt too long and 'What am I really doing this for?' fell to it. Felt like I forgot why I was going somewhere most of the time.
Having just looked at the video question... It's the story structure. Yuna's pilgrimage justifies the linear aspect of FF10. Besides, they make sure to include quite a bit of exploration. Maybe more limited than in previous games, but it's still there.
Good analysis. FFX was the first title I'd finished (only the first shinra reactor was playable in VII on my pc back then) and loved it. I later fell into some of the harsh criticism that had been laid upon it, but upon replaying it a few years ago, I have to say that much of those were quite overstated.
One difference between the two that you didn't mention: in FFX you can backtrack. For most of the game, even though it's a long walk, you can go back to the ferry in Luca and take it to revisit Besaid or Kilika, and indeed you were gently encouraged to do so after the Luca events are finished because now Blitzball is available and those old areas have players you can recruit. In FFXIII, nearly every chapter takes place in one location, which the party generally moves on from and never returns to; most of those locations are trails or old mining sites or similar, locations in the wilds that none of your party has any history with. In FFX, having towns and temples that you can revisit doesn't just fill the world with more NPCs--it gives the characters a closer connection to the world and gives you reasons beyond pure gameplay to revisit older locations. In FFXIII, there's no one to go back and talk to, and you also... can't. You're always just shuttled off to the next area, with little chance to become interested or invested in the environments you're passing through.
Really appreciate this video. I loved FFXIII but it's true that it's a corridor. But my frustration with that critique has been that FFX is also a corridor. But you raise a lot of good points as to why that corridor felt different between the two games.
The linearity of 10 worked great from a Tidus's pov perspective as well. It forces you to learn the information the game wants tidus and there for you, in the order they want. So theres no chance of you going in the "wrong" order and lulu explaining something to tidus he should already know because you went to some other town first.
I'm pretty sure the reason FFXIII didn't have towns in a traditional sense is because you're playing as Pulse L'cie, something the Cocoon residents fear, not because of PS3 graphics. You're essentially on the run 24/7. The superstitious religion is ready to purge entire towns just because a single person came in contact with a pulse Fal'cie and people are so brainwashed by the media that they even support this kind of stuff. The game also takes place in a futuristic setting so it's not a stretch to believe digital shopping has become the norm, kinda how our society moves more and more towards online shopping and a cash-less culture. There are plenty of Areas in FFXIII that are as densely packed as a Town would be. Nautilus or Palum Polum being 2 examples that immediately come to mind. I like FFXIII, it's one of my few comfort games but there are some ways the game could've tackled linearity without being immersion breaking. In FFX you can participate in the blitzball tournament at any moment at a safepoint. Now, if FFXIII had something similar it would be a great mini-game you your enter when getting bored. Like a Digital gold saucer where the characters use avatars instead of their real persona that'd giveaway their L'Cie nature. The hallways themselves could've used a few extra branches in their level design to incentivize exploration within the routes. A few levels already do that with neatly hidden chests but those are few and far between. A lot of the issues unfortunately do stem from you not unlocking the entire party, and thus gaining the ability to swap your party around, until the 10th chapter. That lack of player input while experimenting with paradigms does mean that you have less choice for the vast majority of the game and thus it exténuantes the feeling of playing on-rails. If the FFX group was split into three groups of 2 party members for the majority of the game, FFX would probably feel equally bad. But you unlock almost the entire party right out of the gate so you get to play around in the combat system however you want. The Sphere grind system is also very customize-able if you know what you're doing. A far cry from FFXIII Crystarium that doesn't open up until you reach Grand Pulse and even then is painfully slow and excessively expensive. A lot of these issues could be ironed out if Square ever released a enhanced remaster of the XIII trillogy. FFXIII-2 already implemented a decent amount of fixes to the formula that were generally well received. Perhaps another way the game could tackle linearity in its early game is by allowing the player to experiment with accessory combos sooner. A lot of the game's good quality points are backloaded to the final three chapters which is unfortunate for the rest of the game.
I really love the comment section here. It is really insane how many people love this game even today and I am pleasantly surprised of how many interesting comments are adding onto the topic. Kinda like lofi hip hop before it became a trend.
FFX has a goal to its corridor, you know you are going to Zanarkand so there is a purpose at all times. In FFXIII there are moments when the cast has no idea what they are doing or where they are going "Wandering around aimlessly" is something that is mentioned in the loading screen synopsis
There's also the fact that the linearity still allowed for branch outs with a lot of bends... It wasn't literally straight, like in ff13. Also the fact that were in the outdoors helps, unlike the literal corridors of ff13
Played this through again recently, and I've always loved this game (ignoring the post-game), and lately gaining more appreciation for it, its highly under-rated story, and yeah the linearity to me, it oddly made the game feel more like a legit journey. After this game, I think the Final Fantasy series, to varying degrees, can best be summed up as "learning the wrong lessons".
FFX: A hallway filled with gorgeous artwork and plenty of interesting people who will talk to you and plenty or informational handouts and little alcoves where you can take a break and appreciate the areas. FFXIII: A cold, bland hallway with a security guard behind you telling you to keep moving.
The biggest difference, the ability to grind. Random encounters, allowing you to level up, make progress, etc, made the game feel less linear. Thirteen even had limited enemies, so everything felt super railroaded. Then ten had some side quests, better pacing, the ability to go play blitzball every now and then...
I remember that pre-final boss scene in 13 when the party comes back with suspended L’Cie tattoos and made their speech to the effect of "we shape our own fate", while hyping each other up for the fight of their lives. At this point, I absolutely felt nothing and even quite annoyed that the whole scene felt so unearned and shoehorned, all so that we could get the culminating hero speech by the protags typical in an JRPG. I realized that the game just took me from numerous point As to point Bs, and expected me to have grown sympathetic and attached to the characters. I didn‘t. The message I got was "Get to place X and maybe we‘ll figure out how to stop the Fal‘Cie 🤷🏻♂️ and save Cocoon? Oh yeah you have to save Cocoon just because. Why? It‘s in the Datalogs, dummy!" But in 10, Aeons in the final battle begging to be summoned and killed so they can finally rest? Now that was heartbreaking.
The linearity isn't the issue when comparing these titles, in my opinion, it's the world-building, artistic value and quality of the writing. One it's a very successful and unique project and the other is quite uninspired and generic.
@@groudonvert7286 I meant the Yu-Yevon dreamed reality concept, dreams becoming real being summoned, the mix of japanese and korean art, the colour palette...etc.
@@HittokiriBattousai17 That's a thing only in the end of the game though. FFX before the first fight with Seymour is a very basic journey of the hero... and not a very interesting one.
@@groudonvert7286 That's the plot of FFX, excuse me, and literally the cause why Sinh exists. Sinh, also, is a great concept too, for a great unkillable enemy that has forced a genocidal system controlled by people who aren't even real. This game is hella original for Final Fantasy standards, much more than corny ass XIII.
@HittokiriBattousai17 A Hero Journey even disguised as a Pelgrimage is not original. Sin is any final enemy a Fantasy Hero has to face. Like I said, the first half of the story (until the first fight with Seymour) is not interesting. Also what you describe as a great concept in 10 is basically the Fal'cie's goal in 13 in an even wilder concept : trick the humanity to join Cocoon, let them grow, then collapse Cocoon to kill the entire populace.
I've always argued that the "linearity" criticism is a misunderstanding of the problem with FF13 because most of the other games in the series, such as 10, are just as linear.
I remember just from a game upgrade perspective moving from 12 that felt a lot more open and you could zip between cities with the save crystal and each area had a large open area to just physcially run around, to go from that to a game that was very closed off and felt more linear in 13 just seemed super weird for the first FF title on PS3. It seemed like we really should have gotten an even more open game than 10 or 12 had.
The echo some of the other comments, the framing device of the story helps sell and soften the linearity. Pretty much once you've cleared most of the tutorialization, you're a Guardian aiding a pilgrimage. You're not even the party leader, implicitly or otherwise; you're a tagalong. Yuna's the one choosing the direction, and it makes sense because you're the one aiding her pilgrimage, so it's easier to accept that you're on a linear path because that's how a pilgrimage works. You may be the protagonist, but you're not really "the main character" (at least for most of it), which makes it feel logical that you're not the one in total control of where to go. That sentiment is even sort of highlighted near the end where Tidus, knowing the truth about himself, defiantly says "This is my story" and Yuna comes besides him and says with equal defiance "This is my story too". The linearity feels like an acceptable constraint of the narrative, rather than the designers herding you along. In FFXIII, you're going along a linear path not because the narrative makes it a logical progression, but because that's the only way the maps will let you go and then the narrative just happens because you reached the proper checkpoint. As for FFXIII overall, I've always felt people calling it utter trash to be unfair. To me, it was a game with a lot of good ideas but poor execution of almost all of those ideas. I played the game and had sympathy in seeing what I felt the game could have been.
In FFX, Spira and its lore was just as much a character as anyone else. You get to know the world and its history as you progress through it - something that XIII didn’t hit in quite the same way. Also helps that FFX’s world, story, and lore are far easier to understand compared to XIII’s, at least in my opinion…
The main problem with 13 is you get the whole party right away. You have pretty much nothing useful to pick up for loot you can just upgrade the starter weapons and use it straight thru. I only finished 13 when my gf got stuck halfway thru and we finished it together.
Not to mention despite having the full party right off the back, it takes forever to be *allowed* to choose who is in your active party. And even longer to be able to choose a character who isn’t Lightning as the leader you control in combat.
Thanks for watching 💙If you enjoyed the episode please consider subscribing to support the channel. If you'd like to support the channel further you can do so here: -
Patreon: www.patreon.com/gamediscourses
Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/gamediscourses
I think the fact that you’re on a pilgrimage in FFX made its linearity make a lot more sense, was done very smoothly
But that also works in FFXIII, where your freedom is stripped and your will becomes literally enslaved by the Fal'Cie. Linearity and restriction both work in their narrative favor.
@ Nah. FF13 is trash. In all seriousness tho, FF13 is actually more like putrid sewer water you’d find in the depths of a cesspool.
@ Nah. FF13 is trash. In all seriousness tho, FF13 is actually more like sewer water.
@@EloahAloha That relies on the narrative being actually interesting in some way. FFX merely had a boring narrative, whereas FFXIII was a shitty Call of Duty campaign slapped together in just over a year because Squeenix didn't know what they were doing and wanted to pander to the kind of 12 year old whelps who screech "MLG PRO GAMING!" and "360 no scope!"
This channel commits itself to wonderful insight and thoughtful commentary that resists the banal cynicism of dullards, but I swear half of its viewers' comments are just kneejerk screeching with very little grey matter driving coherently toward a conclusion. Lol FFXIII might not be what you're used to, but calling it sewage is for group-think Asmongold fans overreacting to everything that isn't accommodating their preferences - reductive bashing is just not critical and creative thinkers who are fans of the Final Fantasy mission of experiencing a new game each time *with fresh eyes,* of reinventing itself each time from virtually nothing. It's a solid game, just not one you're used to. Final Fantasy doesn't really have bad main entries, though people screech like they do because a game isn't tailored to their specific flavor.
The en route collectibles like the Al Bhed primers, crests, Jecht spheres, and optional treasure at each temple's cloister of trials also helped to make the linearity more interesting, especially on subsequent playthroughs. The "corridors" are made inherently interesting by being populated with stuff that the player wants to interact with. Still wish you could go to Bevelle properly though.
FFX world felt lived in and alive so you didn't feel like you were running down a hallway devoid of life like FF13
It very much felt like a hallway to me even as a teen.
I've never played an RPG that felt so empty and soulless as FF13.
FFX was my first FF when it came out, so I'm deeply fond of it, so had not idea for a long while folks weren't into its linearity. I got FF XIII as a gift when I got a PS3 and played 25 hours of it, got stuck at a boss after 2 losses (I think roughly where the game does open up), told myself I'd come back to it, and that was back in 2013. I never did pick it up again.
@@thenonexistinghero same, i think gaming changed when ffx came out and those that loved ff up to 8 ignored the fact ffx was boring and so much smaller than the ps1 games with a dumbed down battle system - i hated ffx from the start and to this day it's my least favorite final fantasy made
The cast on FFX was pretty good, very relatable. The FFXIII cast is full of edgy, whiny characters, gets tiring after 5 mins.
Another few differences which really bear considering,
FFX had a lot more side content. This meant that, even though it was mostly corridors, you got quickly distracted. Take the chocobo eater alternate path, or the yojimbo cave, and of course blitzball.
Also, ffxiii felt more oppressive because you didn't really have any freedom in leveling up. Now, the sphere grid is hardly a master example of multi-classing, but it gave *some* choices, which FFXIII never does in its crystaium. The inability to pick characters, or their classes, or their levelling until really late into the game made the corridors feel much more restrictive
At the beginning you're indeed not free to choose what to do (same for FFX btw, if you except Khimari who has a more open Sphere Grid, the other characters are in a linear path)
When you reach chapter 10 in FF13, every characters get every roles and the crystarium becomes very expansive after the first Boss. So you have 6 roles with little CP where you can go wherever you want.
FF13's Crystarium is not as linear as it looks.
@groudonvert7286 I agree with what you're saying overall, but the detail is really important on that. Chapter 10 is insanely deep into the game before a player feels like they have any choice over what they're doing levelling wise. Which means that, all that way, they're getting upset both that the story & level design is linear, and that the levelling is linear. Even the decision to cap the tree preventing you from overlevelling feels like a linear trap. (And it probably had the unintended secondary effect of causing players like me to farm to make sure I always hit that cap, making the areas drag out that much more)
FFX's levelling wasn't all that much more free to begin with, but it did give some small sense of freedom, and also promised much wider freedom later on. The existence of locked nodes & key spheres were hints at how free the system would become, and even early on you got some key spheres to allow you little elements of choice. I remember having Auron abandon his path extremely early to join Khimari on Yuna's path, because I thought having 3 white mages would be useful (I was young, and I was wrong). While that wasn't a smart choice, the fact that I could do that at all speaks wonders about the freedom you had in that early game.
Aside from that though, even in the end game I don't feel like you get that much choice in FFXIII. Which class to level up first maybe, but not much more than that. Each character has the 3 they're good at, and the 3 they're not. That's not inherently a bad thing ofc, plenty of other games (many in the FF series) give you less choice on leveling than that. But the system seems to imply freedom of choice (those tiny branches for 1-3 nodes), without actually granting any, which adds more to that sense of entrapped frustration.
@@phill8223 Chapter 10 is basically the middle of the game.
Secondary roles ask a lot of investment in them, but they're far from bad. Lightning's worst role is actually her Medic (who's supposed to be a main role). Fang's Sentinel is not that great either (mainly because Snow is much better, but her lack of HP and good oriented Sentinel weapons makes her worse than Lightning as the main Sentinel), while she's one of the best Ravager in the game.
Investing too early in secondary roles is not a good idea (except for Fang Ravager and Hope/Vanille's Commando, so you have more options), but once the main role lose their advantages (stage 10 is mainly there for stats and last Accessory slot), the secondary roles become much more interesting.
@groudonvert7286 The middle of the game is way too late to start offering such a small amount of mechanical freedom.
@@phill8223 Like World of Ruin ?
Or halfway throug FF9's CD3 ?
What I think worked so well in FFX with regards to linearity is that, diagetically, your party is on a very linear path for most of the storyline.
It's only as that path for the summoner diverts and there is the experience of a loss of direction and linearity which the group encounters within the story that the map and, subsequently, the world opens up and becomes less linear (or at least it feels that way to the player.)
I think there's a sort of ludonarrative assonance in how this plays out in the game. Excuse the self-indulgent description.
I thought my English was pretty decent until I read your comment
@zhen3142 lol, I used a few media criticism terms that are hyperspecific so it wouldn't mean much to you unless you're into that kinda stuff.
"Diegetically" means within the story or internal to the story; when Seymour first appears in Luca there's diegetc music that plays (i.e. there are musicians in the story who are playing the music) but the track that plays in the game's opening at the blitzball match in Zanarkand is non-diegetical (i.e. it's external to the story; nobody is playing that song on speakers in the blitzball stadium and noone inside the story can hear that track, but when sin fires on Zanarkand during that scene those shooting sounds _are_ diegetical.)
It's a bit hard to get your head around at first but basically I'm just saying that the game played in a linear way while the internal logic of the story also felt as though the summoner was on a pre-defined path, but both of these factors change at the same time towards the end of the game which makes the vibe of the game hang together well.
"Ludonarrative assonance" is a play on the idea of ludonarrative dissonance, with ludonarrative dissonance referring to conflicts between gameplay vs storyline (e.g. the story having a high-pressure, timed puzzle event to defuse a bomb but the gameplay itself allowing you to pause and take your time to work out the puzzle, as an example of ludonarrative dissonance.) Assonance is approximately the opposite (consonance is the direct opposite, where everything fits together perfectly, assonance is where things fit together quite well but not necessarily perfectly) so it just means a cohesive feel between the way the game itself plays and what's going on in the story.
I would have been able to write that comment out with you those terms but it would have made it twice as long to read and this is definitely a channel that is oriented towards media criticism of games so it seemed appropriate to use those terms here. But basically it's just me saying that the vibe of the story matches the vibe of how the game itself plays but using showy words to say this.
@@jessl1934 Would have said, "Ludonarrative resonance" rather than assonance, but that's just how my brain works right or wrong.
Additionally, the central theme of FFX is death. The structure of all its environments pushing you towards an inevitable end, saying goodbye to areas and never coming back, that all had ludonarrative resonance too. And you *do* eventually get access to a world map -- coinciding with the moment where the heroes choose to reject death and embrace life.
Why not ludonarrative consonance? Ludonarrative harmony? Assonance seems ridiculous, although it is fun. 😁
The linearity of Final Fantasy X works better than that of Final Fantasy XIII because it offers more gameplay variety, including towns, NPCs, quests, and minigames. In contrast, Final Fantasy XIII focuses almost entirely on combat. Even when you gain access to the game’s primary sidequest, the Cie’th Stone Missions, it still consists of more combat.
Additionally, areas in Final Fantasy X are shorter, allowing you to complete them before they become tiresome. This also enabled the developers to include more areas overall compared to XIII. In Final Fantasy XIII, there are fewer areas, but they are significantly longer. As a result, you’re essentially stuck in these extended sections where all you do is fight, and it soon starts feeling monotonous.
The story is explicitly about a pilgrimage, so every major story beat is structured around progressing forward toward a predetermined goal. Going A to B to C all the way to Z is the point-we know where we’ll ending up, and each step means we are closing in, gaining some new insight or tool to prepare us for that end. The narrative keeps things fresh not by surprising us with where we must go next, but by constantly challenging the why of it all. So, if the plot and progression through the world is linear, the story never is. This also does help make the intended destination less of an anticlimax because the meaning of the journey constantly evolves, and so the anticipation of getting to the predetermined end doesn’t feel predetermined.
It also helps that FFX takes you through the world. You actually get to experience the cultures, feel the terror of Sin's destruction and every character is related to the locales.
In 13, characters are only connected to Bodhum and Oerba. You don't even interact with shopkeepers or even quest givers.
Even the motive to save Cocoon feels so alien because all its culture is hidden behind datalogs.
That's one thing I love about FFX too, especially compared to the later games like XV and VIIR. You were new to the world of Spira but you weren't a tourist. The later games, especially XV and VIIR, allow you to explore but everything is through the lens of some kind of road trip like you were in some kind of theme park. It's particularly egregious in XV and Rebirth, especially with the latter's HUD directing you every step of the way. X feels like you are truly experiencing a totally foreign culture and immersing yourself in it.
@@12ealDealOfficial I do think Rebirth and Wallmarket feel a little touristy. But I wouldn't say FFVII OG didn't feel a bit touristy either (though in a diff way that doesn't entirely defeat your point).
Meanwhile FFXV barely has locations anyway. Golden Quay and that *one* town are kinda you're two "big" locations, everything else is a small pitstop, so I think that very much contributes.
Exactly spot on. The main defense of the lack of towns and NPCs that I come across is that the party is on the run and are fugitives. I mean alright? They could've easily gotten disguises and try and go uncover. FF7 literally did this.
Exactly. The world of FF13 feels artificial. It doesn't feel like a place that people actually live in.
The only emotional reaction I had to the people and culture of FFXIII was running past some NPC in Palomporum, hearing him speak, and then going "Wait, is that the guy who voiced Zuko in the Last Airbender?!" (It was.)
I think one of the aspects that wasn't mentioned that is done well was that the party had both a short and long goal of the journey. The overall goal was to get to Zanarkand while the short goal was depending on where you were in the game and that short goal can be achieved by not going along the same straight path the whole time. Example can be once the pilgrimage starts you have Luca as the short goal which is not all one path and is broken up by a boat journey and a temple visit. Bikanel/Bevelle break up the long path by a goal of finding and then rescuing Yuna along with being on an airship. The short goal distracted from the long goal and by having that immediate finish to an event felt like you were progressing more than simply one long arduous journey.
I think that the reason why the linearity in ff13 gets so much hate is because its not just exploration, its everything.
Your progression system is linear in ff13 with branches late and at extreme cost.
Your equipment upgrades in a mostly linear fashion in ff13 where in ff10 there's a reasonably high amount of customization.
FF10 additionally has Aeon customization, doesn't have auto-battle making choices for you, doesn't have the eidolon battles that can mostly only be beaten one way, etc.
FF10 also has towns (which were mentioned in the video), the ability to go back to previous locations and real reasons to do so(Valefors overdrive, Blitzball recruitment, NPC items, celestial weapons, etc), sidequests and minigames sprinkled throughout the game(butterfly catching, Belgemines duels, Blitzball, Cactuar quest, lightning dodging, the Gagazet timing game), hidden places(sealed cavern, Baaj temple, omega ruins) and puzzles(the cloisters of trials). I don't even know if ff13 has cool weapons in any of its item chests -I'm pretty sure its just consumables, upgrade materials and weaopns that your current weapon will likely turn into when you feed it enough upgrade materials.
While its true that a lot of these things were not well liked, thier presence does contribute to the idea that exploration is rewarded, and that makes ff10 feel a *lot* less linear than ff13.
Its telling that not only did previous ff games give you a lot of variety when it comes to modes of play, in the games that were more linear they opened up the systems so you had more choice, giving you options whether is was by class(ff5), by character(ff4,ff9), by ability(ff6,ff7) or all three(arguably ff8). Even ff1 had you choose 4 classes from 6 options at the start.
(yes, i know ff13 'opens up' in the lategame, but at that point its chapter 11 of 13 and its way too late at that point)
(yes, I know ff13 is a game where it makes thematic sense for the characters to be constrained like that. There are ways to convey that that don't require *this level* of linearity)
Yeah, I think many players have trouble describing what feels wrong about FFXIII, so it gets boiled down to "linear." I agree it's probably more about pacing.
FFX starts you out in Zanarkand, and makes you anticipate your return more and more with every temple you visit. The journey is very goal-oriented, giving clear justification for overcoming obstacles of all kinds.
FFXIII focuses on escaping pursuers. There isn't a specific destination the player is headed towards, making obstacles feel arbitrary. Without a clear goal, players notice the linear path and feel railroaded.
The party in FF13 don't have a clear goal. They're trying to fulfil their "focus" but they don't know exactly what it is beyond a vague notion of saving Cocoon in an unspecified way. The other half of the problem is that there is very little exploring to do within each area. They are very much just corridors. And there are no other characters to talk to.
They do have a goal though.
- Lightning's goal is to stop fleeing and take action. She wants to go to Eden, so she goes to Palumpolum and Hope goes with her.
- Sazh and Vanille doesn't want to fight and choose to go to a peaceful place called Nautilus.
@@JoeNeutrinoyeah i think this more that the actual issues
I really like your response, because that's precisely why many people who don't understand the criticism that is being made about a product end up deflecting instead of addressing the issues - people often lack the ability to put into words WHY something is bad, even though they understand, via experience, that said thing is bad, so they end up utilizing linguistic shortcuts and using minimalistic language to try to explain it; and then the detractors start discussing semantics instead of trying to understand what the issue is:
"It's bad because it's linear" => "Other game is linear and you like it."
"Gen 1 had sharper design with fangs and spikes." => "Voltorb is round and doesn't have any spikes."
"That's not how it was done before." => "Everything needs to change, you're just being a fanboy."
That's why critics are so important, we need people who are capable of putting criticism into words that can be understood by those deflectors so we can reach a common ground instead of just slapping each other because you get tired of dealing with the detractors for refusing to comprehend that the issues you have with a product are valid.
@@groudonvert7286 Yes but the point is that was still too vague. They draft ideas rather than clear goals with objective steps. "Go to Zanarkand, visit every temple along the way, and let Wakka and Tidus have their blitzball game" is more defined, immediately, than "go place to do something"
FFX has lots of optional content in just about every area you reach as well. Starting even from Kilika Woods, you have a small maze-like area that has lots of treasures, but also an optional tough enemy you can either skirt around taking a longer path or directly fight. Mii-hen Highroad has an entire lower section you can skip, but it has some unique encounters and treasures you can pick up (some requiring a chocobo). The Thunder Plains has both the lightning dodger aspect as well as the Cactuar stones, Macalania Woods has the butterfly catcher mini-game (they're not all winners), and Bikanel Island has the Cactuar hide and seek stuff. And of course Calm Lands has lots of optional stuff including the monster arena, Cavern of the Stolen Fayth, The temple with the Magus Sisters (and a chocobo race), and Chocobo Training. When doing the Cloyster of Trials there's an optional chest with usually a really good weapon to be obtained as well. There's lots of chests, NPCs (many of which give you items or supplemental information about the world), and optional areas to explore.
FFXIII has basically none of that for most of the game. Even when it finally does open up a bit, the extra content isn't that interesting. FFXII kind of started this trend of "side quests" basically just being "go hunt this unique monster and (maybe) report back" that FF games haven't seemed too interested in escaping from since.
Macalania Woods is also where you unlock the optional Jecht Spheres and more additional lore and backstory for Braska, Jecht, and Auron (you can find one of the first Jecht spheres in Macalania Woods too, the one that tells of Jecht, Auron, and Braska's first meeting. There is also the optional side path (the shimmering road) that has a location needed to activate a celestial weapon. So there is a bit more going on, and the unlocking of the Jecht Spheres encourages backtracking/revisiting past locations. If you talk to the NPCs on revisits, they often have new dialogue that is reflective of the current events happening in the game, so there is a sense of time flowing and change (and gives the sense of new discovery).
A huge issue in 13 was the protag group all being equally useless as the world moves on. Right away they wonder what to do about their curse, and right up to the final boss they are still asking the same question and even after.
It's a road trip where Everyone in the car keeps asking "are we there yet?" Except it about their curse.
Interesting take, I never felt FFX being linear while playing it, and never finished ffxiii because I felt there was just nothing there.
The sphere grid is a perfect example as well - it's very linear, but disguises this fact with it's design
I never got to any location in several hours of play of FFX III that wasn't sections of that cavernous glowing place, XIII actively made me not care about these characters and their world because the world building failed to launch, it began in a scenario that failed to impress, in a very ugly location. In X, in the same first several hours, you have Zanarkand, a sunken mysterious ruin, and a beautiful tropical island, the plot beats have some drive to them, many more characters and ideas are established, and how they relate to each other.
FFX had a linear story and a linear progression to match. Everything is clearly explained to Tidus, the outsider, giving the player a clear window of connection to the fantasy world. The pacing and delivery of the story and accompanying worldbuilding feel natural and whole, and deliver a rich, immersive experience.
FFXIII had a fractured, nonlinear story but a linear progression to deliver it with. Many important worldbuilding moments and foundational aspects of the game lore are hidden behind optional menus and buried behind uninviting text blocks the player must actively stop the gameplay and pacing to discover and interact with. Yet without that fundamental knowledge, the actively delivered story moments lack critical context and leave the player with a desire to "explore, go back and see what they missed" - when what they missed wasn't back earlier, but quietly supplied in a purely optional format the entire time. It doesn't help that the main character of the story DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE GAME.
Each area drew you in in FFX. 13 you were just running through a tunnel where most areas were "stimulating" but overwhelmingly forgettable. The story in X was connected to each zone, where it wasn't really in 13. There was no "stop and interact" with characters. Most NPCs were nameless and ran around. Even your "secondary" character list that Final Fantasy's are known for was just empty. You had the main cast, which were not very engaging running through a game where no other characters seem to exist. The level designs were on on rails. Not just linear, but that going through the levels had only 1 real path. Same with the leveling. They also had to control 1 character, which also felt limiting in combat.
In FFX, the journey across the world was pretty chill (most of the time).
And most of the time, you actually could back track. And that's before you get the airship which let you revisit almost every location you'd been to previously.
Not to mention the music was really, really good.
Think the big thing was there was a lot of stuff that made the world felt alive in FFX. Aside from it being a pilgrimage and having side content a lot of the story was about appreciating each of these places from the party teaching Tidus as they go. XIII's areas more or less were places the party had to run through to not get captured, that's it. So the urgency was a bigger thing than making the world feel alive. Glad they fixed that in xiii-2, thougg
Well it's pretty simple: Things happen in FFXs corridors. You meet people, there are interactions, story beats, there are things to look at, and reasons to go back.
In FF XIII, the corridors are lifeless and there's nothing and no one to engage with.
You can backtrack at almost any point you want. When I have the Standard Grid, I usually get Rikku and then immediately turn around and go back stealing tons of stuff from earlier on.
Yeah, I was scrolling to see if anyone else had mentioned this. XIII allows very little backtracking other than on Gran Pulse: just about every segment of the corridor seals its entrance behind the player. It's not even just that you can't go back to the Hanging Edge, for example, but that you can't even backtrack _through_ that area.
In X, while there are story reasons you can't always revisit certain areas at least until later (and, in all but the first couple of releases, practical ones introduced by the presence of Dark Aeons) you can still _usually_ turn around and go to see if anything has changed in the wake of your passage - and sometimes it has!
Players don't necessarily use this ability very often, but _having_ it makes the whole thing feel less like being swept inexorably forward from one set piece to the next, even though that's precisely what's happening.
The thing is, there's a ludonarrative assonance to that in XIII. The party _are_ caught up in events over which they have very little control until roughly when they reach Gran Pulse (and even then, it's more a case of their trying to work out what they can do, searching the world below for options, than of their being free). It fits the narrative… but it still makes the player feel as though they lack agency.
@@DaraelDraconis FF13 is not the only FF to do that.
Say hello to FF8 and 9's disc 4 who completely block the world.
@@groudonvert7286 Absolutely, but those are late-game points of no return. Up until that last boundary is crossed, most areas can be revisited (though occasionally you have to move forward to overcome some story obstacle before you can go back, such as when FF9's events take you away from the Mist Continent and you have to make progress before you can return). FF13 does it the other way around: roughly the first half of the game has no backtracking whatsoever. Front-loading those restrictions, making them part of the default mode of play rather than a marker of entering the endgame, very much changes the overall experience.
@@DaraelDraconis I prefere FF13's way than the other way to be honest.
@@groudonvert7286you prefer the game blocking previous areas every 5 seconds instead of literal final dungeon point of no returns, with the world being backtrackable throughout 99% of the game?
Weird take.
The more open environments and saturated color use help a lot
Tidus had no real reason to explore the world- he was terrified, Wakka gave him a home, something to anchor to. He was just trying to gather his bearings, so he followed his friend and Yuna, the interesting woman he just met. FFX also is takes a tour guide approach to showing you the world. She's busy visiting temples, so she doesn't have time to stop, and Tidus must follow. It's only until the end of the game that Tidus finally cares about seeing the world he's ready to give his life to defend.
Audience surrogates go a long way.
Wakka also gave Tidus hope, go to Luca and maybe you'll find someone you know/answers. And it was at Luca, where he met Auron who gave him answers, that he decides to formally join his new friends whom he's spent days/weeks with
Okay, how serendipitous that this video pops up in my timeline. I've been replaying a bunch of FF games lately as I've been building a JRPG-style indie game for the last couple of years, and as I've been playing Final Fantasy X (which I actually never played when it came out--I just watched a buddy of mine play it on his PS2 back in the day), I couldn't help but think "man, I remember playing Final Fantasy XIII when it came out, and one of the biggest criticisms of it was that it was far too linear until the very end of the game, so why doesn't that bother me while I'm playing FFX?"
That thought has been living in my brain for the last month. So weird to see a video title that begs the exact same question.
The algorithm works in uncanny ways, but I hope it was useful to you 🙏
Outside of the broader strokes of the story, I'd say the lack of interesting NPCs. Spira was very much full of life, meanwhile you barely talk to a human being through all of 13. But then the story also matters of course.
My opinion of it was always that in X you were more or less making a beeline towards a specific destination, with a few mandatory pitstops. Anything like Bikanel was always an unplanned detour that derailed the party, but they'd always turn back towards their destination.
Another big reason is that this end destination was one they didn't want to reach (and starting from Bikanel, you as the player also start to not want to) as of course it would spell Yuna's death, so there was this sense of wanting to not reach the destination. In that sense, the ever-closer destination looms over your head, a clear end in sight. The goal does not change.
On the other hand, F13 starts off without much explanations, there is no real goal to all their moving around for more than half the game. I understand what they tried to do with the plot, but the characters had nowhere to go most of the time (and of course, game design mandates that you should change areas through the story). This lack of grander purpose, of (perceived) clear picture really does not mesh well with the linearity.
That's what I hated about FF13. The team DIDN'T know where to go, yet the game was wholly linear. In FF10, the team DOES know where to go, so of course they take the simplest route when possible.
For me the linearity also never bothered me much because there were still lots of secrets and sidequests. The world would open up towards the end of the game. Being able to revisit everywhere, unlock and discover new areas etc.
The reason why linearity in FF10 worked so well. It was because of the theme, characters and exploration in the game was so engaging that people don't think to themselves how linear it actually is. For most part, all games are linear. Some games are designed in such a way that it gives the player a convincing illusion of choice.
One big difference in my opinion is also character Progression.
FFX sphere grid offered a lot of freedom in how you evolve your character and what way (or role) you gave them or how much of it.
Meanwhile FF13's crystals, predefined roles and less flexible partybuilding in battle, underlined the feeling of being railroaded and therefor made the linear structure of the level design even harder to ignore.
FF10's normal Sphere Grid is very linear.
@@groudonvert7286 up to a certain point in the game, yes... but even the normal spheregrid and where you move there is so much more customisable, the FF13's crystals could ever hope to be.
@@btothekfromg5973 Same for the Crystarium. Chapter 10 opens up the Crystarium so every characters have access to every roles, stage 8 to 10 asks also a lot of Points to get every nodes, the further the game goes the harder it becomes to get good Farming spot.
It means you have a lot of options with few CP to spend (and secondary roles are far from bad to use).
Also I should say that the Sphere Grid is tedious to fill entirely, especially if you want to have the best stats on every characters.
@@groudonvert7286 And yet you have the ability to do so, making the spheregrid nearly completely customisable (abilities excluded of course).
I really don't want to Argument preference... you seem to like the crystarium more and that is valid. More Power to you... but trying to compare the linearity of these two approaches and call them equally linear... sorry, that's not a mater of opinion anymore. That's a fact and you yourself gave one of the best reasons why.
Yea, unlike 10, ff13 blocks u off from most of its awesome futuristic world. Like i was hoping Nautilus would be explorable and full of minigames like the Gold Saucer only to find disappointment. 13 isn't an awful game but it's flawed in the worst ways for an RPG. Maybe SE asking a remake of it isn't a bad idea
Blitzball rules! I always play it to get return or teleport spheres and use them to move around the sphere grid and get different magic for all my characters
the camera work definitely makes a difference.
like FFX is both memorable by the locations you visit and also the way you view those locations. a lot of those moments are curated in the sense that you're controlling the character, but the camera is being framed in the way that the devs wanted you to see it.
this is no longer the case in later 3d FFs, since you have full control, and (save for a few rare exceptions) the only time you experience those deliberate camera moments are in cutscenes. and i think it makes traversal somewhat less interesting, especially on linear paths. doubly so if a minimap exists, but thats another topic altogether
Been saying this is one of the problems w/ modern gaming. Everything is personally controlled and in 3rd-person. FF10 does a masterful job of framing scenarios, just like a movie director would do. I don't just stare at my PC's butt the whole game.
I felt XIII to be so incredibly restrictive after the open feel of XII which probably also played a small part. The world in XIII looks huge but feels small. FFX felt more true to size in a sense because it was easy to see what part was scenery and which parts were game environment.
Someone already said it, but the fact that X's journey is a pilgrimage makes its linearity make sense. There is a defined beginning and end, the charcaters and the story naturally follow this pilgrimage from beginning to end and knowing that the pilgrimage is all encompassing, do not very often deviate from it.
XIII on the other hand has its characters move from setpiece to setpiece. They are visually stunning locales, I will give them that, but the story nor the characters have any idea why they are there. They just randomly jump from place to place waiting for something to happen, so the linearity stands out as it just being unconnected hallways that lead to a boss fight
For me the major difference was the urgency. Because the game constantly told you to keep runnjng forward it was pretty clear that you couldnt stop and enjoy the game.
On the other hand ffx was a journey with a group of friends. You saw a preview of the 'ending' at the start and you kind of want to avoid getting there. You want to explore the areas you come across because this may be your final chance to see any of it
It has the illusion of exploration much better than ffxiii
Ten had all sorts of goodies that rewarded exploration in its hallways, and most importantly of all people you could talk to. Treasure chests in 13 are like HEY LOOK AT ME. I also didn’t like how so much of the character’s capabilities were locked behind story fights so there was never an incentive to grind which I actually like doing in JRPGS.
I’m usually a strong defender that each game being very different is part of the unique appeal of Final Fantasy. But good lord do I want world maps back. Ever since FFX, every FF game seems to bend over backwards to show that this game doesn’t NEED a world map, but Type-0 is the one modern-style FF I’ve played that just included a world map and honestly it’s just better than every alternative they’ve offered. No million dollar set piece has ever sold the scale of a game’s world nearly as well as a great big map with a tiny little man on it.
Yes! Dragon Quest 11 is the last AAA game that had a legit world map. Yes, it was broken up differently than OG FF's and DQ's, but it did it's job in giving MASSIVE SCOPE to the world.
6:26 You are so right on this. I've been saying for years that having EVERY SINGLE GAME be 3rd-person nowadays is highly monotonous. Fixed camera angles give scope and dynamism to a world that you can't achieve just by looking over someone's shoulder all day. There's a reason FF7-10 feel so massive, even if areas really aren't. Also, like movies, it allows the team to frame shots for whatever scene it is. Fixed cameras allow developers to direct your gaze, hide limitations AND they would shorten development cycles as you don't need to detail every little nook and cranny. We need this type of game development back!
Because it has the most thought-through backstory and lore of every FF, making every background matter and rewarding.
I prefer having a world map, but FFX did at least have nice towns and fun little nooks and crannies for treasure chests.
X-2 also introduced nonlinear exploration of that same world, which was enjoyable.
Before watching the video: I think it's the camera. If people swung around the camera to see places they would never be allowed to visit in X, they would have hated it too.
@@dilsency6101 prepare to find yourself agreed with.
Really like this video and you make very very valid points (every point is so strong). Wished you inserted more ff13 footage to emphasize the contrasts you highlighted.
@creggieb thank you, and I agree, the reason there's a lack of ff13 on the channel generally is it's notorious for copyright strikes. It's the only Square game that has issues with fair use and I cba to navigate the dispute process everytime 😅
Because this is my story. - Tidus 😂
Had to do it!
FFX was also the las main game with Prerendered Backgrounds. No wonder why it felt so magical and yet so modern.
I see this complaint regularly with fans of XIII why is the linearity of X acceptable but not XIII, its a fair question but I think it as you say the lack of optional content, city's/towns, npc interaction, mini games/sidequest and access to large portions of the map at a certain point, doesn't leave much desire to continue playing the game past completion of main quest.
That critic could apply to FF10 in a different way. Yes it's good to have a ton of contents to do... but most of them ask a ton of grinding as well (without speaking about some really badly designed mini-games).
The sidesquests in 13 mostly involve Fights. If you enjoy the battle system (like I do), the side contents is enjoyable... especially with a battle system where grinding is unnecessary (except if you want to do the 100%).
@@groudonvert7286but my critique isn't of grinding which will often times reward you, its the access to such content and areas of the map in which you previously traversed.
Im glad you enjoy XIII I'm just trying to express the broader view of why two seemingly simulator games yield very difrent reactions
@@Bevtone Simulator games ?
@@groudonvert7286 Typo I meant similar* if you go back through your own reply you'd find you hardly have a ground to point out mistakes.
@@Bevtone Sorry, I wasn't sure what you meant by that (and I won't criticize English's errors when English is not my first language lol). FF13 is sometimes called Hallway Simulator.
First thing that came to mind back then, X's party stay together, Tidus is a great stand in for learning the world and nuances of characters. I hear the name of any place in that game and I know its history what it looks like the music etc. Even the kid that wants to be a Blitzball is memorable.
13 is everyone running around like headless chickens falling out with each other non stop throwing the same 5 terms around over and over, I couldn't tell you the history of any town or army etc in that game off cutscenes alone. Literally the food plant that's it I think. I couldn't name a single place cept Gran Pulse and Cocoon but only because they say it 500 times.
I think there were other factors that fed into 13’s linearity being more pronounced, one being the level up system where you would hit points where you weren’t allowed to progress anymore and I think that was another reminder of how railroaded you were in the game. 13 had some stunning locations but because you were sprinting through (partly through plot, partly because of no gameplay reason to stay) you never got to savour them and, even worse, couldn’t return to them.
The point you make about the lore being given out when you reach towns is also interesting and I think having Tidus as a character discovering the world allowed the player to do the same. Conversely, none of the characters in 13 had a clue what was going on and neither did we! So at least when I’m trudging down Mi’Hen high road I know why I’m doing it, the location’s significance to the lore AND I can grind for some loot and levels if I want to!
In 13 they all know the world they live in.
I guess breaking the 4th wall to explain to each other what Fal'Cie, Cocoon, Pulse, L'Cie... means would have been the greatest idea.
Even though the game is also heavily corridor based, I never felt like I was out of control in FF10, whereas in FF13 I often felt like I had no control over what was happening. Just keep following the string and stay on the tour.
I'm not even sure myself why it worked in FF10 and didn't in FF13.
I remember one of the XIII devs (Kitase maybe?) Saying that the linearity was meant tl emphasize the journey the characters were going on while becoming L'cie. just as the characters were forced on a single path to save themselves, the world itself was presented as a lonear world. The game only opens up at Gran Pulse when thry decide to fight their fates.
He's full of it. FFXIII was linear because Square-Enix thought making towns and giving it more openness with that level of graphical fidelity was too expensive. The game also doesn't open up either, it's just that 1 area. It wasn't done to benefit the game, it was done to save them money.
Just found your channel and have been loving it, mate.
I just finished FF7 Remake which had plenty of linearity in its pathways. Options to explore elsewhere were mostly in towns
FFX's world just feels alive, lived in, and full of history.
I can't say much about XIII because I barely played it, but in X's case it helps that the linearity is supported by the narrative, as the characters are going on a pilgrimage that is pretty much set in stone and which many groups before had walked through in the exact same way.
1) Firstly, FFX's hallway was much better designed. It had points of interaction and hidden chests, which made the scenery feel like more than just digital wallpaper for a long tunnel. Also, towards the end of the game you can trace your way all the way back to the beginning location in Besaid in a seamless way, as opposed to FFXIII where there are numerous points of no return along the linear hallway. The design is just much more impressive.
2) Secondly, the linear design fit perfectly with FFX's narrative about following a pilgrimage trail from point A to point B. The Mihen Highway is like the Yellow Brick Road from OZ - and there is very little narrative reason to stray from that singular narrative path. By contrast, there is absolutely zero narrative reason that FFXIII should have had its world designed as one long linear pathway. The only reason that the game was designed like this, was because it was easier than the alternative - but then they failed to even make this easy game design halfway interesting for the player.
The FFXIII cast was literally on the run from the authorities from the very beginning. As they tried to figure out what they could do, the one thing that was clear was that there was no way to stay put, wander around or go back.
There was a narrative reason for the game to be more linear and not return to past locations.
The hallways were emptier, sure. But then again, they were hiding and feeling like enemies to everyone around them for most of the time.
FF X had variety in its gameplay with puzzles/ mini games and actual towns with npcs to interact with. where as 13 is mostly just battles and cutscenes
The biggest thing is the towns/npcs. 13 has 0 areas where you can chill and upgrade/explore.
It's why ff4-10 are so damn good. They're goals you reach, the reward is to wind down.
Too much fuss is being made about "linearity" in games. All games are linear and follow a timeline. A lot of games overcompensate for this now with way too much filler, pointless side quests that make no sense
Linear games are missed. Zelda lost a lot of its magic with the BOTW formula, I mean Aonuma literally stated they don't care about the story but they do about gameplay.
Yeah, I actually like some linearity in games specially in JRPG. Idk why this people wants to get bombarded with boring side quests that adds nothing to the plot or the world-building itself. That's why I feel FF5, FF6 and CT were annoying in their last chapters where is necessary to grinding (disguised as "side quest") in order to defeat the big boss with no problem
Yes! And also Final Fantasy was always pretty linear. Even though you have access to the world map, the progression was still linear until very late in the game.
XIII unfortunately just feels like a series of random levels as well, where as at pretty much any point in FFX, you can just choose to walk all the way back to Luca and then catch the ships to besaid.
I will always maintain that having a party combat system where you choose the actions of every party member will always feel more immersive than one where you choose them only for the main character while the AI controls the others.
FFX does this especially well as you constantly switch the party members in and out and they all feel useful (even Kimahri as long as you give him a specific role like healing or stealing). Every FF since FFXII has felt like the party is much more distant to me, and less like a party. Tho XIII did well to give the characters separate stories for a while to get to know them better.
One thing FFX did that really jumped out to me was having the protagonist be just as clueless as the player. This detail made me forget the game is linear. That said, i have no issues with linear games.
I would add, having lived through the PS1 to PS2. Many gamers including myself were very much wanting a deeper immersive experience with their games. We wanted greater quality in games like graphics, gameplay and music. The FF series pushed very much for telling a really good story. But it lacked in areas of immersion just because what was capable of the PS1.
Yuna and the others feel like they are Part of this World like everybody.
In FF13 Lightning's Group feels complety isolated from the World.
There is not one NPC outside from Cutscence's that talks to you. The World is explained to a Menu.
In 10 you learn about it from Characters in the Game.
In 10 everybody suffers from Sin. Group and NPC's.
In 13 nobody except for a Group nobody really has any trouble with what happens in the Plot. L'Cie are evil, that's it. It dosen't fell like a "Save the World from Death" Story. More like: The Group want's to get rid of there "sickness".
Go tell this to all the people who went in vacation to Bodhum and were sent to die in a WWII fascion.
Or to all the people who suffer from a civil war created by the Falcie.
Those things even have an impact on one of 13-2's antagonists.
@groudonvert7286
I know what you mean. But this is a small Part. Until the End it never feelt for them like the Life of everybody or the Planet is on the Line. And even in the End Coocons Fall was about 2 Min's long.
Compare that to Sin or Metor in FF7.
Even the Demons in FF15 or the "Zombies" (I forgot the Name) in FF16.
@@cloudxz92 The main focus of the game is how the party face a destiny they're forced to face and have no good ending. And how to save humanity of certain destruction (a common theme in the trilogy btw).
The map design was just better in X. The only place that really felt like a long slog forwards was the mihen highroad. Theres linear and there’s corridor and X didn’t feel like a corridor except the highroad even though it was linear. XIII wasn’t just linear but was severely narrow
I can hear the thumbnail
The corridors being significantly wider in X also helped. There were NPCs to interact with and more secret treasures to find as a result.
Design Doc has a great piece on the clever things FFX does that disguises its linearity. One of the most prominent is the 'pitstops' where you would stop and talk with one of the recurring NPCs such as Maechen, Belgemine, Shelinda, Rin, Luzzu/Gatta, O'Waka, etc. These characters were clearly following Yuna's pilgrimage, commenting on current events, and they change based on what they experience on that journey just as assuredly as your main party does. They'll often gift you an item for listening to them as well.
FFXIII, conversely, has no such NPCs or pitstops. Everyone just hates you for being a L'Cie, the end. No one (except for Hope's dad) even tries to reach out to you and learn more about your situation. Imagine if there was a crusading reporter who was trying to learn the truth about them even at the risk of their own life? Or a comrade-in-arms of Lightning's who wasn't given the L'Cie brand and thus can't fight well, but insists on following them anyway? Or even Barthandelus's pet bird, who is apparently his good 'salvation' half? It just feels terribly empty without any non-hostile NPCs to populate the world with.
It's because the story was SOLID and easy to follow.
I could be wrong but I think I remember an interview where they said that with FFXIII they wanted to replicate the linearity but bombastic nature of Call of Duty, which has been massive since those days.
And if that's the case the it makes so much sense how FFXIII was designed, but as you said, it might have not been for the best depending on who you ask.
Yeah but these 2 franchises couldn't be any more alike lmao. Why is a series that's primarily an RPG take inspiration from a FPS when it comes to something as important as level design?
@Key-Knight87 I guess it's more about trying to replicate the presentation and therefore impacting the level design.
Not saying it was the best source of inspiration if that was the case.
Eurogamer, "Kitase and Toriyama on the Western reaction and going multiformat":
"'We did actually take a look at games like BioWare's, and Fallout as well,' [lead designer Motomu Toriyama] says. 'But rather than that, we took more inspiration from FPS games like Call of Duty and Halo.'"
Kotaku, "Final Fantasy XIII Creators On The Influence of Call of Duty, Card Games & The Toyota Prius"
"Toriyama told Kotaku that the design of Final Fantasy XIII doesn't follow the JRPG 'template' intentionally, a choice that has received mixed response. 'The basic RPG functions are to go into towns, prepare for battle by going to shops, then go out in the field," Toriyama explained. "In that sense, Final Fantasy XIII doesn't have towns or shops-it's more that players are thrown into a story, presented with different situations as they move forward in the field and keep progressing that way. [...] In that sense it's more similar to an FPS genre, like Call of Duty,' he said."
VG247, "Where Final Fantasy Went Wrong, and How Square Enix is Putting It Right":
"[W]hile Toriyama's group had already nailed down FFXIII's story, lore, and characters, the expression of those elements as a video game remained murky. By some accounts, the battle mechanics weren't fully locked down until six months before FFXIII launched in Japan. [...] Toriyama admits the final product was rushed through a short production timeline. 'Final Fantasy XIII was mainly criticized for its linear game design,' he says. 'There are several reasons for the game’s linearity. With a limited amount of development time and resources, we made the game linear in order to maximize the players’ gameplay experience and to provide the same type of gameplay experience to all players. [...] But on the other hand, it led to players feeling like the majority of the game was a tutorial. I believe this was a big flaw in the game."
tl;dr Final Fantasy XIII was a rush job. They had no clear direction and fumbled around looking for a way to make the game work, so they settled on turning it into a corridor shooter rather than an RPG.
I still make the argument that, in every gameplay sense, ff13 is restrictive and linear but ffx is actually very free. FF13's crystarium gives an illusion of choice in growth, but no matter what you do lightning will never get a higher level medic spell than cura. Meanwhile, in ffx anyone can do anything basically at any time and create many different ways to play through the game. Weapon upgrades and customizations in ff13 are mostly just linear paths of putting materials into a weapon until it gets pre-set stat upgrades and bonuses, but ffx gave you the ability to put just about anything on any weapon or armor provided you had the materials for it, which again increases replayability, as you might have access to totally different tools and stat spreads between playthroughs. Every playthrough of ff13 feel basically the same, but no two playthroughs of ffx ever feel exactly alike, in spite of the fact both games ultimately have you travelling in straight lines.
Ffx was game you could have fun in.
Not once did I ever feel like I had to grind unless I had too. I could pick 3 people and run, but I could also play around with other characters too and level them if I liked them.
For a long time I didn't really use lulu I always used brute strength, but once I started using her I had fun with her, as well as when I gave Yuna a black magick spell cleaned house.
Ff13., was just a slog, I felt like I was never doing anything right, I constantly got stuck and felt like I had to grind to get past what some would probably call basic bosses or enemies. I can't begin to to tell you how many times I got stuck on Odin, Shiva, and a few other bosses because I just couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong.
And that damned battle change system, it felt like you had to change they way you played 99 times through multiple fights and God forbid if one person wasn't what you needed.
Hell at one point I think you only have two people and one of them was a whiney asshat who bitched and moaned about snow being a dick the whole time.
I have not to this day beaten ff13, and probably never will. Haven't beaten ff13-2 but got pretty far in it just didn't bother beating it and. I conquered ff13-3 essentially where lightning is like a god or something saving souls.
Ff13 sucked so hard.
FFX was overall more coherent in literally mapping out the story. None of the map felt like a waste. When you revisit later you get memories of what happened when you were at each first location. By the time FF13 came around the fatigue was already setting in with FF games.
Very well put, probably the best analysis about linearity in both games! There's something you said that also caught my attention, and I guess that explains the oddness felt in FFXV: the diversity of locations and the lore in each one in FFX (and also in XII). FFXV lacks too much of that and the missions feel pretty repetitive
Ff13 is confusing until you understand what the hell they’re saying, and once you do it’s boring. It’s also so wide scope-hope just secretly hates snow for like 30 hours, lightning is incredibly stoic, snow is kind of an idiot- the characters take a massive back seat. FFX, the characters interacted, talked to each other, emoted. Idk why since FFX the “party” has felt like they don’t matter in the games. It’s more important that some npc is a surprise immortal being than the characters being interesting or enjoyable
It doesnt help that most of the lore are just freaking stored in the backlog. FF13 broke the unwritten rule of show, dont tell.
Corridors were never a problem if you could go back and there was a lot of side content tied to them. FFX did it best
I actually love a game that’s confident enough in its story and world building to take me down a linear path. FFX had those dynamics, plus an engaging battle system that really forced me to think about every move.
FF13 could have been just as great, if not better. I think the problem is the places that could have been explored more were treated just as another “level” of dungeon crawl, mixed in with a narrative that only came full circle if you read the lore files. There wasn’t anything to break up the monotony of gameplay until late game, and there was rarely any interacting with the world outside of monster encounters. The world was beautiful, but it just felt like set dressing where as FFX felt real and relatable.
I feel like a FF13 remake wouldn’t have to change much about its world and story. Just make it explorable and interactive, and the rest will fall into place. They had a good idea, but the execution was flawed.
There's linearity and then there's walking in a straight line. Ff13 was painful as literally had no variation. Ffx did have things to discover and you could backtrack a little.
It felt like FFXs linear world felt like it took less time to complete with clear objectives in each one with fun things to do or find. FF13 felt too long and 'What am I really doing this for?' fell to it. Felt like I forgot why I was going somewhere most of the time.
Having just looked at the video question...
It's the story structure. Yuna's pilgrimage justifies the linear aspect of FF10. Besides, they make sure to include quite a bit of exploration. Maybe more limited than in previous games, but it's still there.
Good analysis. FFX was the first title I'd finished (only the first shinra reactor was playable in VII on my pc back then) and loved it. I later fell into some of the harsh criticism that had been laid upon it, but upon replaying it a few years ago, I have to say that much of those were quite overstated.
One difference between the two that you didn't mention: in FFX you can backtrack. For most of the game, even though it's a long walk, you can go back to the ferry in Luca and take it to revisit Besaid or Kilika, and indeed you were gently encouraged to do so after the Luca events are finished because now Blitzball is available and those old areas have players you can recruit.
In FFXIII, nearly every chapter takes place in one location, which the party generally moves on from and never returns to; most of those locations are trails or old mining sites or similar, locations in the wilds that none of your party has any history with. In FFX, having towns and temples that you can revisit doesn't just fill the world with more NPCs--it gives the characters a closer connection to the world and gives you reasons beyond pure gameplay to revisit older locations. In FFXIII, there's no one to go back and talk to, and you also... can't. You're always just shuttled off to the next area, with little chance to become interested or invested in the environments you're passing through.
Really appreciate this video. I loved FFXIII but it's true that it's a corridor. But my frustration with that critique has been that FFX is also a corridor. But you raise a lot of good points as to why that corridor felt different between the two games.
good video.
one correction, over-worlds were a staple of role playing games of that time, not just rpgs made by developers in japan
The linearity of 10 worked great from a Tidus's pov perspective as well. It forces you to learn the information the game wants tidus and there for you, in the order they want. So theres no chance of you going in the "wrong" order and lulu explaining something to tidus he should already know because you went to some other town first.
I'm pretty sure the reason FFXIII didn't have towns in a traditional sense is because you're playing as Pulse L'cie, something the Cocoon residents fear, not because of PS3 graphics. You're essentially on the run 24/7. The superstitious religion is ready to purge entire towns just because a single person came in contact with a pulse Fal'cie and people are so brainwashed by the media that they even support this kind of stuff. The game also takes place in a futuristic setting so it's not a stretch to believe digital shopping has become the norm, kinda how our society moves more and more towards online shopping and a cash-less culture. There are plenty of Areas in FFXIII that are as densely packed as a Town would be. Nautilus or Palum Polum being 2 examples that immediately come to mind.
I like FFXIII, it's one of my few comfort games but there are some ways the game could've tackled linearity without being immersion breaking. In FFX you can participate in the blitzball tournament at any moment at a safepoint. Now, if FFXIII had something similar it would be a great mini-game you your enter when getting bored. Like a Digital gold saucer where the characters use avatars instead of their real persona that'd giveaway their L'Cie nature. The hallways themselves could've used a few extra branches in their level design to incentivize exploration within the routes. A few levels already do that with neatly hidden chests but those are few and far between.
A lot of the issues unfortunately do stem from you not unlocking the entire party, and thus gaining the ability to swap your party around, until the 10th chapter. That lack of player input while experimenting with paradigms does mean that you have less choice for the vast majority of the game and thus it exténuantes the feeling of playing on-rails. If the FFX group was split into three groups of 2 party members for the majority of the game, FFX would probably feel equally bad. But you unlock almost the entire party right out of the gate so you get to play around in the combat system however you want. The Sphere grind system is also very customize-able if you know what you're doing. A far cry from FFXIII Crystarium that doesn't open up until you reach Grand Pulse and even then is painfully slow and excessively expensive.
A lot of these issues could be ironed out if Square ever released a enhanced remaster of the XIII trillogy. FFXIII-2 already implemented a decent amount of fixes to the formula that were generally well received. Perhaps another way the game could tackle linearity in its early game is by allowing the player to experiment with accessory combos sooner. A lot of the game's good quality points are backloaded to the final three chapters which is unfortunate for the rest of the game.
I wish this was the top comment instead of all the FFX glazing,
I really love the comment section here. It is really insane how many people love this game even today and I am pleasantly surprised of how many interesting comments are adding onto the topic. Kinda like lofi hip hop before it became a trend.
FFX has a goal to its corridor, you know you are going to Zanarkand so there is a purpose at all times. In FFXIII there are moments when the cast has no idea what they are doing or where they are going "Wandering around aimlessly" is something that is mentioned in the loading screen synopsis
There's also the fact that the linearity still allowed for branch outs with a lot of bends... It wasn't literally straight, like in ff13. Also the fact that were in the outdoors helps, unlike the literal corridors of ff13
Played this through again recently, and I've always loved this game (ignoring the post-game), and lately gaining more appreciation for it, its highly under-rated story, and yeah the linearity to me, it oddly made the game feel more like a legit journey. After this game, I think the Final Fantasy series, to varying degrees, can best be summed up as "learning the wrong lessons".
It's the story. Nearly every scene is filled with heart.
FFX: A hallway filled with gorgeous artwork and plenty of interesting people who will talk to you and plenty or informational handouts and little alcoves where you can take a break and appreciate the areas.
FFXIII: A cold, bland hallway with a security guard behind you telling you to keep moving.
The biggest difference, the ability to grind. Random encounters, allowing you to level up, make progress, etc, made the game feel less linear. Thirteen even had limited enemies, so everything felt super railroaded.
Then ten had some side quests, better pacing, the ability to go play blitzball every now and then...
I remember that pre-final boss scene in 13 when the party comes back with suspended L’Cie tattoos and made their speech to the effect of "we shape our own fate", while hyping each other up for the fight of their lives. At this point, I absolutely felt nothing and even quite annoyed that the whole scene felt so unearned and shoehorned, all so that we could get the culminating hero speech by the protags typical in an JRPG. I realized that the game just took me from numerous point As to point Bs, and expected me to have grown sympathetic and attached to the characters. I didn‘t. The message I got was "Get to place X and maybe we‘ll figure out how to stop the Fal‘Cie 🤷🏻♂️ and save Cocoon? Oh yeah you have to save Cocoon just because. Why? It‘s in the Datalogs, dummy!"
But in 10, Aeons in the final battle begging to be summoned and killed so they can finally rest? Now that was heartbreaking.
The linearity isn't the issue when comparing these titles, in my opinion, it's the world-building, artistic value and quality of the writing.
One it's a very successful and unique project and the other is quite uninspired and generic.
A pelgrimage is a unique project.
What a joke.
The Hero journey is one of the most used trop in fantasy.
@@groudonvert7286 I meant the Yu-Yevon dreamed reality concept, dreams becoming real being summoned, the mix of japanese and korean art, the colour palette...etc.
@@HittokiriBattousai17 That's a thing only in the end of the game though.
FFX before the first fight with Seymour is a very basic journey of the hero... and not a very interesting one.
@@groudonvert7286 That's the plot of FFX, excuse me, and literally the cause why Sinh exists. Sinh, also, is a great concept too, for a great unkillable enemy that has forced a genocidal system controlled by people who aren't even real.
This game is hella original for Final Fantasy standards, much more than corny ass XIII.
@HittokiriBattousai17 A Hero Journey even disguised as a Pelgrimage is not original. Sin is any final enemy a Fantasy Hero has to face. Like I said, the first half of the story (until the first fight with Seymour) is not interesting.
Also what you describe as a great concept in 10 is basically the Fal'cie's goal in 13 in an even wilder concept : trick the humanity to join Cocoon, let them grow, then collapse Cocoon to kill the entire populace.
I've always argued that the "linearity" criticism is a misunderstanding of the problem with FF13 because most of the other games in the series, such as 10, are just as linear.
I remember just from a game upgrade perspective moving from 12 that felt a lot more open and you could zip between cities with the save crystal and each area had a large open area to just physcially run around, to go from that to a game that was very closed off and felt more linear in 13 just seemed super weird for the first FF title on PS3. It seemed like we really should have gotten an even more open game than 10 or 12 had.
The echo some of the other comments, the framing device of the story helps sell and soften the linearity. Pretty much once you've cleared most of the tutorialization, you're a Guardian aiding a pilgrimage. You're not even the party leader, implicitly or otherwise; you're a tagalong. Yuna's the one choosing the direction, and it makes sense because you're the one aiding her pilgrimage, so it's easier to accept that you're on a linear path because that's how a pilgrimage works. You may be the protagonist, but you're not really "the main character" (at least for most of it), which makes it feel logical that you're not the one in total control of where to go. That sentiment is even sort of highlighted near the end where Tidus, knowing the truth about himself, defiantly says "This is my story" and Yuna comes besides him and says with equal defiance "This is my story too". The linearity feels like an acceptable constraint of the narrative, rather than the designers herding you along. In FFXIII, you're going along a linear path not because the narrative makes it a logical progression, but because that's the only way the maps will let you go and then the narrative just happens because you reached the proper checkpoint.
As for FFXIII overall, I've always felt people calling it utter trash to be unfair. To me, it was a game with a lot of good ideas but poor execution of almost all of those ideas. I played the game and had sympathy in seeing what I felt the game could have been.
In FFX, Spira and its lore was just as much a character as anyone else. You get to know the world and its history as you progress through it - something that XIII didn’t hit in quite the same way.
Also helps that FFX’s world, story, and lore are far easier to understand compared to XIII’s, at least in my opinion…
Whenever I see FFX I think of MGS2. Both came out the same year and both were really good for their time. Both crazy good games.
Yes awesome games. Probably my favourite 2 PS2 titles, and both really pushed what PS2 could do very early in its lifecycle.
Yoo this is a good question. Saving this vid for later.
The main problem with 13 is you get the whole party right away. You have pretty much nothing useful to pick up for loot you can just upgrade the starter weapons and use it straight thru. I only finished 13 when my gf got stuck halfway thru and we finished it together.
Not to mention despite having the full party right off the back, it takes forever to be *allowed* to choose who is in your active party. And even longer to be able to choose a character who isn’t Lightning as the leader you control in combat.