You are EASILY the best equipment reviewer I've seen on YT for the average swimg player....actually just best reviewer period. Thank you so much for your content!!
Thanks, Jay - very pleased with my HL set and this validates the choice. So glad I went to a fitter who suggested these against the clubs I had intended to buy!
Jay, you are nailing it with your content. You have always been more data driven and thoughtful than most but you are really asking the right questions and giving great clarity to us slower swingers in particular. Looking forward to your next videos 👍
Thanks for the kind feedback, I've tried over the years to add more in the way of reduced swing speed information as most youtube reviewers swing 90 or so mph with a 7 iron which most golfers can't relate to 👍🏻
When I have my proper swing (which is a challenge) I really like my HLs. I played Sunday, and had three 135-140 yard shots onto greens. Which is a7 iron. And hit all three as well as I could. I like to say they “looked like golf”. Really high. Covered what was needed, landed where I pictured them, and rolled out 15 feet at most. My ball speed on my best swings is just under 100, the HLs seem to be made for me!
They absolutely are, they are the perfect blend of Forgiveness and Performance that many golfers swinging less than 75mph really need to look at. If you involve Feel and Looks then yes, it gets a touch more difficult to pick then as the two sections don't compliment each other. Everyone should really look at the HLs if performance and forgiveness is forefront of their mind 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut They might not be totally sexy, but for a 85-95 shooter they look pretty good. And they do have a pretty nice feel when you actually find the center. To me they felt (and sounded) better than anything else I hit when I got fit (Ping, Cobra, Callaway, etc.) I do have to admit that I went into the process wanting them to "win", and they did. Your review when thy came out pushed me that way, understanding why more loft could actually mean more distance for an old, slow, engineer! Others might have have more distance, but nothing had the height. Playing around 6300 yard =/- (at 2500 feet elevation) I don't need to hit a seven iron 170, a reliable 140 will do a pretty good job on a lot of holes.
Wonderful if only more golfers could have your clarity then they wouldn't end up buying sets of golf clubs they can't actually use or are totally nonfunctional for them. I hope you have years of enjoyment with them 👍🏻👍🏻
I am the 100mp 7i ball speed guy and had 2 different green grass fittings in the spring (1st day 38* with 20mph wind, 2nd 5 weeks later) and both with Mizuno the best although 1st was HM and the 2nd was HM HL. Went with the HL 6i to GW because I liked performance better and lofts pretty much matched my old Ping G15's so I didn't have to change the top of my bag. Great content as usual.
Impressive again how you manage delivery with clubhead speed (dialed down from your usual massively) and face control. It really makes the comparison valuable.
Great review most educational and the HL is very much the hidden hero need to try it. Another great feature is no upcharge for graphite shafts. Also would love you to do the woods in this format. By far the best tests on u tube.
The addition of the Copper in this last edition of the Tour irons have made them feel every bit as good as the Pro series now. Very much so a Players club 👍
Great vid as always J. My 7 iron swing speed is around 82-84 mph. I went for the HL version. Still look fine from address and as forgiving as it gets. The other important factor was those lofts. 5 iron is still functional and still comes in from around 100 ft. All irons above it are between 100-110ft descending at around 47 degrees. I see no reason not to make this game easier, Mizuno have a really good iron in the HL (not much in the way of competition unless you get the PINGs in retro loft) , feels fine for non forged and the lofts are right for the offering. The standard JPX's/Pros are only good for a specific demographic, otherwise they are too low spinning and too low launch, yes they go for miles but that is so one dimensional. Unless you can compress them with a really steep angle of attack and launch them with spin then they are going to be difficult to stop. I'm really happy with my HL's (coming from 921 Forged). More forgiveness, more stopping power, more pars.
@@AskGolfNut Few birdies too...... Playing off single figures for 30 odd years, big bats, nope.... always been forged Mizzy, these for me opened my eyes. Everything I need plus forgiveness in bundles. Watched your vids and others for years. Big Mizuno fan but this is a step change iron. Mizuno won't get the credit for it, TM or Callaway will suddenly do the same next year and the hype will drown out the Mizuno R&D and first to market. What % of the golfing public will say it was Mizuno (large manufacturer) that had the original sliding track on a driver ? Less than 10%? As you've said so many times, the irons of the last few years are all launch monitor driven on distance. Real functionality only discussed with proper fitters.
Great vid Jay. Took me months to figure out what you explain in 15min. I play 933HMpro on mid swing speed and had to keep tweaking the lofts till I ended with almost HL lofts. Now they flight the ball like real irons and the extra bounce has turned out to be a bonus.
The good thing with doing what you did is that you have turned the nicer looking forgiving iron into a blended HL Pro version. The HLs would still be more forgiving from off centre hits due to its larger size and lower CG but it's exactly the move I would make to try and dial them in for my speed. Unfortunately I would be unable due to the lie changes that I would need as they can only be bent a certain amount of degrees in both axis in total. 👍🏻👍🏻
Great info for me Jay ! My 7 iron speed is about 70 mph. I put looks and feel above all else so tour 7 iron to wedge is my choice. My score doesn’t change with blades or game improvement irons so what the hell 😀
If looks and feel are top of the list of important things then absolutely the Tour is the right choice, would be interesting to hear how you have felt the distance between irons is? 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut Hi Jay I lose about 5 yards to pro 225 and 12 to a hot metal but at 68 I’m playing more for enjoyment now. Funnily as I’m getting slower I’m finding middle of the bat more often 😀
Seems blending the Forged short irons with HL long irons - given their lofts are only 1^ apart - would be the ideal combo. My gamers are the Forged but my 5i runs thru 175yard greens. Was thinking of a 26^ hybrid, but looks like the 5i HL might be the right replacement. Thanks, Jay, very relevant for us average golfers! 😊
I'd definitely agree if you wanted to stay with an iron and done like hybrids, however if you get along fine with them then actually you'd struggle to beat the forgiveness and assistance with laugh that a hybrid gives 👍🏻👍🏻
Every time people have tried them in the Custom Fitting process, they have been amazed at just how well they do. Mainly it's just the size etc that puts them off and go for a lesser performing option. 👍🏻
I found for my 7 iron swing speed of 87mph that bending the forged irons 2 degrees weak makes a world of difference. Better launch and descent angles make them much better overall
Considering the transition of the Forged lofting over the years, I don't doubt whatsoever that is functionality is improved immensely by the weakening of lofts. It's something that many golfers within their fittings should explore 👍🏻👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut so we are essentially saying that golf club manufacturers have done the majority of amateur golfers a great disservice by jacking up the lofts over the past ten or more years!
@zazhou not necessarily, what the main issue is that cranked irons that a very strong lofted have been marketed as Distance Irons where in actuality they really need to be re classified and potentially limited in club numbers not going all the way to 5 irons etc and say finishing at 7 iron. These 'Distance' irons are really handy fro slow swinging golfers that need the jacked lofts for the increased loft gaps between irons to get sensible distance gapping between clubs. The problem with them going to 5 iron etc is that with the slow swing they aren't able to launch the ball with enough peak height to make the 5 and 6 irons functional. So a bit of a reclassification or re-education on understanding what they are for and who will benefit from them. 👍🏻👍🏻
As a ~12 handicap with a 90mph 7 iron I got fit for a set of Mizuno JPX923 Hot Metal Pro (plus a JPX923 GW) with Project X LZ 6.5 shafts by the regional Mizuno rep for my area. Only played with them 3 times so far so no Arccos data on them yet (takes 5 rounds), but they feel and look great and I'm scoring about the same as my old set. After I get more used to them I hope to see some improvement.
@@AskGolfNut I did a gapping session with my Garmin R10 and got these results: Mizuno T22 58*: 94 T22 54*: 108 GW: 128 PW: 142 9i: 157 8i: 170 7i: 184 6i: 198 5i: 212 4i: 228 My standard shot is a 5-10 yard fade so I think that is why the stronger loft is still ok at my speed. When I tried to draw them they went probably 10+ yards longer but with much less height and stopping power.
Shouldn’t we put into consideration also the attack angle ? I’m a slow swinger (75-76 mph with the 7 iron) with shallow attack angle (-1 deg) and I’ve been fitted with the JPX923 HM Pro with NS Neo 95 GH shaft, that also help with launch, and the ball flight looked nice with good peak height (approx 27-28 yards) and decent descent angle.
Absolutely, that's why I put it all, in there for all to see. Generally though I see golfers attacking the golf ball too much even at reduced swing speeds. Even thd HL was designed on the back of the millions of swing captured by the Swing DNA tool which measure Angle of Attack, and it to saw the majority of slower swingers using too much shaft lean into impact curtailing their launch parameters. The face that you run a - 1 AoA is testiment to you and I applaud you for generating the right launch conditions to maximise your club head speed 👍🏻👍🏻
Same here. I sort of "make it work" by only delofting about 2 degrees with my ~75mph (on a very good day) 7 iron swing speed. I also find that I can hold greens even with irons with about 24° of loft. But I also produce amounts of backspin, which really are bit strange for my swing speed. With what was considered very strong lofts in 2013, when I bought my current set (27° 6-iron), I often find my ball about 2 yards from its pitch mark, and that's on fairly firm greens. Could be a combination of low strikes and a shallow angle of attack and the ProV1X I use, ever since I won a dozen in club comp and fell in love with it 😁, I don't know. But Jay's videos still help me a lot, because I just try to calculate what his results would mean for me.
I'd be extremely worried about bending those cast heads, especially bending the HMs to the HL, the 243 will easily do the degree to match HL but I fear of having some snapped heads doing the same with the HMs.... 👍🏻
Thanks for the reply. Would be great if Mizuno would send you HM and HMP 7 irons with the HL loft - think HM pros with higher lofts with their less offset and smaller profile would sell great.
Another excellent video Jay. I love Mizuno irons and I’ve been thinking about the Forged but I’m in the slow swing speed range now sadly. What I don’t like is wide soles as I’m a bit of a sweeper. Is there anything else you would recommend that looks a little better.
Great presentation as usual. As a high SS player looking for some forgiveness help, it seems that most mid tier forgiveness irons have jacked down lofts that hurt gapping for us. I'll wait for the Mizuno 24x series, but I may end up in the new apex line just to stay with more of a traditional loft(34⁰).
You could weaken off a set of the HLs to 32deg 7 iron etc bringing it into line with the Pro 223/243. The Pro line even the 245 with the huge tungsten upgrade won't compete with the HL on forgiveness 👍🏻
Very similar to the HL but at a distance disadvantage. So, whenever you have longer distance but either the same or greater peak height and descent angles then it's free distance / performance 👍🏻
Awesome video. Just picked up a set of 223s but just can’t get along with the 6 iron. 75-78mph. From the top graph it looks like the forgers would not be that far behind the HL? For launch? I previously came for Hot metals just didn’t like the feel. Too clicky. Forged 6i a good option? But the HL is $50 cheaper 😂
I think yes that due to club head speed you have reached the point of diminishing returns and you don't necessarily see the performance with your 6 iron that you expect with every other iron. This would be the point where I would either suggest going to a larger construction head design to help launch, or more so transition into hybrids to gain back the control and the extra distance that the 6 iron club should give 👍🏻
Thanks for a very informative video. You seem to say that irrespective of swing speed(I'm probably in the middle) and looks and feel aside the HL is probably the best choice. My question is , I play on a links course where it is often windy, would you still recommend the HLs over the others ?
With increased speed, absolutely the descent angles will increase. However at very low speeds the descent angles are muted somewhat and it's much more a thing of trying to get them as, best as possible for as much control as possible. In the end, club head speed fixes many issues engineers and designers battle with with every new club release 👍🏻
Thanks Jay this is great data for us slower swing speed golfers, I know that shaft stiffness doesn't bother you but should 70mph+ be playing graphite shafts?
All depends on their individual loading. It can in many cases, work a bit backwards as when golfers get older and their range of motion reduces faster than their production of power in transition, then the shaft requirements can push certain senior golfers into the Stiff category completely outside of graphite. It's actually quite a common occurrence. They get straighter and have much more consistent flight with no trade off in distance. It's the importance of being correctly custom fitted by a fitter which ideally also Coaches as well as that'll give them a bi-directional insight 👍🏻
Love your reviews Jay…so detailed and so relevant. I am seriously looking at the JPX923 family but am undecided between the Forged and Hot Metal Pro. Would like the better feel of the Forged but would also like the extra distance of the HMP. Would a good compromise be getting the Forged 1° stronger so it is closer to the HMP? Do you think doing this would overly compromise the bounce of the club. My club head speed with a 7 iron on average is 84-86 mph.
I'd look to weaken the HMP rather than change the Forged. Mizuno don't tend to have massive amounts of Bounce so I'd rather keep as much on as possible 👍
Yes, that makes sense as I am playing Callaway Apex Pro’s with 2° stronger lofts and the turf interaction is not great. I just like the look of the Forged a bit more than the HMP and I like the little bit thinner top line and sole of the Forged as well
It was so close between the Forged and the HM and HMP as they are the strongest loft of the range, but at high speeds the advantage that the super springy faces, extremely low CG heads of the HM and HMP just pip the Forged in descent angles but only by a tiny margin. I could have quite easily put them all at the same points score but there is a small difference so had to score them accordingly (in reality the descent angles were all crazy good at high speeds) 👍🏻
Basically the HM and HMP are for Distance and Forgiveness at medium swing speeds. The HMP for the player looking for all that but in a nicer looking design. The Forged for the medium to faster swing speed golfer looking for a blend of feel, looks forgiveness and distance. The Tour...... Well someone that likes a satin colour in their bladed irons 🤣 The HL is the stand out. Absolutely the best by miles under 70mph swing speed and in performance alone and not taking feel and aesthetics into account, it wins in performance category too. I however like a smaller looking head design and the softer feeling of the true Forged blades, so for me it's the Pro 221s 😊
You are looking at a carry of say about 155 at 80 mph, all things being equal. As soon as individual golfers get involved with all thd individual swing and strike differences, you have to understand how your own swing will affect the raw potential and determine what's realistic for you 👍🏻
Help.... Just had a fitting for irons. Hcp Index 16 swing speed 75 the JPX 923 HM HL comes out as the best club for me and it feels good. BUT I love the look of Ping I525 no I do not hit it as high or as long (about 5 yds less) so I am stuck between performance and looks/style. Do I go with the data or do I go with the looks ? Thx. PS great content thank you
Have you thought about retro specing the i525, or wait for the i530 iron which I will be reviewing very soon. If you retro spec them that would bring the lofts in line and you may gain your distance back with the looks that you want. Unfortunately there aren't any opportunities to test retro specing the so this part has to be done on trust with the person that is fitting you at the time 👍🏻👍🏻
Sadly, I’m in the slower swing speed category or just a bit quicker. I can’t stand offset or a big club head either. How much difference can the shaft make in alleviating some of these issues with decent angle and such?
Great review Jay, question, as a long time player of i210s when I played 2 x week im now 59 and only play 2 x month so i traded my i210s for 923HM-HL, when I hit them perfect love the results but seems my misses are much more heavy, could that be due to wider soles?
Great video, the chart was helpful to see. I did an iron fitting and decided move away from the Callaway Rogue X irons to the HL's. Can't wait to see the difference between the two.
The Rogue Xs were mentally strong lofted even for modern day standards and in reality only functional for golfers of very low swing speeds which needed the larger loft gaps for functional distance gapping between irons but they could only use them down to say 8 iron being the strongest iron. The 7 iron and beyond would just flight the ball too flat and be very much uncontrollable. I think it's a good step forward you moving to a High Launch option as its the best of both worlds kind of golf club 👍🏻
Quick follow up...I love the HL irons! I got the regular, graphite shaft. My approach shots actually hit the greens and stop, giving me a chance to score. My only concern is I now have to club up by 2 to reach my normal yardages. It may be due to playing this late in the year, but that's an easy swap for the improved accuracy.@@AskGolfNut
How does the HL perform when mishits tend to be thin (the result of a positive AoA)? Would it still win the crown for forgiveness (75 mph swing speed) or would a different model better serve me. Prefer metal shafts. You used metal, right?
I used steel shafts yes but for me personally and only a tiny percentage of people are like me, that I'm not shaft sensitive so changing shaft has little to no effect on ball flight. The vast majority of golfers as hugely affected by shaft change. The HL if we are talking aboit low on the face strikes will always be the best option apart from say going full hybrid head design for your irons. I would though very much explore the possibility of working on the swing as well as that will by far have the greatest impact on your golf ⛳ 👍🏻👍🏻
You know me 😊 haven't got a clue 🤣 would absolutely make a huge difference for 99% of golfers though getting the right shaft to ensure the right bend profile is used 👍🏻
Jay Do you have the new pro series irons in hand yet Looking to swap my gen3 Pxg”s and waiting on the release reviews to book a fitting Keep up the great content
Hi Gary, I would say jump on Mondays Live Stream for the complete update but I'm not doing an Open All Access Live Stream until first week or so in January. I'm doing one this Monday coming with all the information but its a Members Only Live Stream (I do Members Only Live Streams every Monday evening). You are more than welcome to pop on my UA-cam Homepage and click the JOIN Button for more info 👍
Seems like they absolutely missed the mark with the forged when you look at this. I think if the forged had more traditional lofts they would of preformed much better
There has been many golfers that have chosen the Forged and went in favour of just weakening the loft off maybe a degree or so which does reduce the distance a touch but also gives it better launch, peak height and descent angles. Don't forget though that this rating is all about performance and has absolutely no weighting in their for aesthetics and feel. If I was to include those 2 the Forged rockets up the table 👍🏻
As you stated "Feel" is important, i need forgiving and high launch clubs BUT if they have no feel i just hack-em, yer sounds dumb its like hitting a rubber mallet - dead as. i don't think i will ever find something that suits my budget, just have to stick with my old i200's that i brought 2nd hand.
The i200 irons are great irons, and the i230 irons are also, a touch more forgiving than the original i200s but with all the same feel and arguably slightly better looks, probably that would be a decent upgrade or whatever the i230 will be in the future 👍🏻
So basically all of them within 3 yards carry difference, despite all the different angles. Even the Tour was there or thereabouts. All those other numbers are meaningless to most of us. Conclusion…buy them but buy the cheapest and don’t buy the Tour.
That's true for the distance side of things but the Forgiveness is very different. Also the above is true when you swing at 73 mph, as soon as you change speed, they all change dramatically either slower or faster you swing so this is really to show at what point the clubs start to blend and then also separate in their performance differences 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut but you can't know how the gapping distances vary change on a particular set unless you test all or at least most of the clubs in a set. Testing a 7 iron only will not tell you anything about gapping.
Gapping between iron sets is directly comparable from the very good estimation point of view when seeing the loft specifications. It's fair to say that the, same golfer, with the, same swing dynamics will have closer distance gaps when using a traditional 4 to 3 degree loft gap set to that of a larger loft gap set of other irons. It's not an exact science on estimation but it is a very very good and fair assumption to know the distance gaps increase with the stronger gapped irons 👍🏻 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut Trouble is with the longer irons the swing dynamics are likely to change as the clubs are more difficult to control for the average golfer. going through some fittings at the moment and only looking for club demo days where i can hit the longest club in the bag (5 or 6 iron) as well as the 7 and PW. Just done Titleist with T350 and confirmed i can hit the 5 iron with acceptable carry and descent angle - achieved by 1 degree weaker loft thru the set. Rather do this than base on estimate off the 7 iron numbers.
I agree that that is the optimal way to think about it but in practice and for the vast majority of golfers they only have the 7 irons available during testing. A good fitter though should be able to accurately determine what the launch potential is for longer irons after the 7 iron and then suggest either the changing of loft or correct transition to hybrids or alike 👍🏻
These were tested on fairway landing conditions rather than green as I didn't want anything like dispersion left and right and also front and back to warp the data. Best thing to do is ignore the total roll out distance and focus on the individual peak height and decent angles as they will be a much better reflection of green holding 👍🏻
Make sure they use the Swing DNA Shaft Analyser tool. Mizuno base their whole fitting ethos around it's use and it cuts down shaft selection by a crazy amount. I ddi a recent video on it, well worth giving it a watch if you are soon for a fitting 👍🏻👍🏻
You are EASILY the best equipment reviewer I've seen on YT for the average swimg player....actually just best reviewer period. Thank you so much for your content!!
Wow, thanks for the very kind feedback, its comments like yours which really make the hard work being different worth while 👍👍
Thanks, Jay - very pleased with my HL set and this validates the choice. So glad I went to a fitter who suggested these against the clubs I had intended to buy!
Fantastic video … you are the only UA-camr that brings golf inside for average player like me a REAL INFLUENCER
Jay, you are nailing it with your content. You have always been more data driven and thoughtful than most but you are really asking the right questions and giving great clarity to us slower swingers in particular. Looking forward to your next videos 👍
Thank you for this. I 'm a 70mph...shoulder surgeries and it's good finally see a club review for people like me...
Thanks for the kind feedback, I've tried over the years to add more in the way of reduced swing speed information as most youtube reviewers swing 90 or so mph with a 7 iron which most golfers can't relate to 👍🏻
The Tours just look so damn good! Probably the best looking iron I’ve ever seen
When I have my proper swing (which is a challenge) I really like my HLs. I played Sunday, and had three 135-140 yard shots onto greens. Which is a7 iron. And hit all three as well as I could. I like to say they “looked like golf”. Really high. Covered what was needed, landed where I pictured them, and rolled out 15 feet at most. My ball speed on my best swings is just under 100, the HLs seem to be made for me!
They absolutely are, they are the perfect blend of Forgiveness and Performance that many golfers swinging less than 75mph really need to look at. If you involve Feel and Looks then yes, it gets a touch more difficult to pick then as the two sections don't compliment each other.
Everyone should really look at the HLs if performance and forgiveness is forefront of their mind 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut They might not be totally sexy, but for a 85-95 shooter they look pretty good. And they do have a pretty nice feel when you actually find the center. To me they felt (and sounded) better than anything else I hit when I got fit (Ping, Cobra, Callaway, etc.) I do have to admit that I went into the process wanting them to "win", and they did. Your review when thy came out pushed me that way, understanding why more loft could actually mean more distance for an old, slow, engineer! Others might have have more distance, but nothing had the height. Playing around 6300 yard =/- (at 2500 feet elevation) I don't need to hit a seven iron 170, a reliable 140 will do a pretty good job on a lot of holes.
Wonderful if only more golfers could have your clarity then they wouldn't end up buying sets of golf clubs they can't actually use or are totally nonfunctional for them.
I hope you have years of enjoyment with them 👍🏻👍🏻
I am the 100mp 7i ball speed guy and had 2 different green grass fittings in the spring (1st day 38* with 20mph wind, 2nd 5 weeks later) and both with Mizuno the best although 1st was HM and the 2nd was HM HL. Went with the HL 6i to GW because I liked performance better and lofts pretty much matched my old Ping G15's so I didn't have to change the top of my bag. Great content as usual.
Impressive again how you manage delivery with clubhead speed (dialed down from your usual massively) and face control. It really makes the comparison valuable.
It takes a while to dial in 🙂
Great review most educational and the HL is very much the hidden hero need to try it. Another great feature is no upcharge for graphite shafts. Also would love you to do the woods in this format. By far the best tests on u tube.
Good to know! Yeah, those JPX 923 Tours for me have been sick but they spin like crazy. Definitely made for tour-level players
The addition of the Copper in this last edition of the Tour irons have made them feel every bit as good as the Pro series now. Very much so a Players club 👍
Tour is sneaky good. I want to see how it does against the Pro 243.
Great vid as always J. My 7 iron swing speed is around 82-84 mph. I went for the HL version. Still look fine from address and as forgiving as it gets. The other important factor was those lofts. 5 iron is still functional and still comes in from around 100 ft. All irons above it are between 100-110ft descending at around 47 degrees. I see no reason not to make this game easier, Mizuno have a really good iron in the HL (not much in the way of competition unless you get the PINGs in retro loft) , feels fine for non forged and the lofts are right for the offering. The standard JPX's/Pros are only good for a specific demographic, otherwise they are too low spinning and too low launch, yes they go for miles but that is so one dimensional. Unless you can compress them with a really steep angle of attack and launch them with spin then they are going to be difficult to stop. I'm really happy with my HL's (coming from 921 Forged). More forgiveness, more stopping power, more pars.
Who ever hates more pars 😊😊👍🏻👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut Few birdies too...... Playing off single figures for 30 odd years, big bats, nope.... always been forged Mizzy, these for me opened my eyes. Everything I need plus forgiveness in bundles. Watched your vids and others for years. Big Mizuno fan but this is a step change iron. Mizuno won't get the credit for it, TM or Callaway will suddenly do the same next year and the hype will drown out the Mizuno R&D and first to market. What % of the golfing public will say it was Mizuno (large manufacturer) that had the original sliding track on a driver ? Less than 10%? As you've said so many times, the irons of the last few years are all launch monitor driven on distance. Real functionality only discussed with proper fitters.
@rhodridavies5005 can I like this comment more than once 😊😊
Great vid Jay.
Took me months to figure out what you explain in 15min.
I play 933HMpro on mid swing speed and had to keep tweaking the lofts till I ended with almost HL lofts.
Now they flight the ball like real irons and the extra bounce has turned out to be a bonus.
The good thing with doing what you did is that you have turned the nicer looking forgiving iron into a blended HL Pro version. The HLs would still be more forgiving from off centre hits due to its larger size and lower CG but it's exactly the move I would make to try and dial them in for my speed. Unfortunately I would be unable due to the lie changes that I would need as they can only be bent a certain amount of degrees in both axis in total. 👍🏻👍🏻
Great info for me Jay ! My 7 iron speed is about 70 mph. I put looks and feel above all else so tour 7 iron to wedge is my choice. My score doesn’t change with blades or game improvement irons so what the hell 😀
If looks and feel are top of the list of important things then absolutely the Tour is the right choice, would be interesting to hear how you have felt the distance between irons is? 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut Hi Jay I lose about 5 yards to pro 225 and 12 to a hot metal but at 68 I’m playing more for enjoyment now. Funnily as I’m getting slower I’m finding middle of the bat more often 😀
Seems blending the Forged short irons with HL long irons - given their lofts are only 1^ apart - would be the ideal combo. My gamers are the Forged but my 5i runs thru 175yard greens. Was thinking of a 26^ hybrid, but looks like the 5i HL might be the right replacement. Thanks, Jay, very relevant for us average golfers! 😊
I'd definitely agree if you wanted to stay with an iron and done like hybrids, however if you get along fine with them then actually you'd struggle to beat the forgiveness and assistance with laugh that a hybrid gives 👍🏻👍🏻
Great video for slower/moderate swingers. Definitely insightful for me.
Really glad you enjoyed the video 👍🏻
Very helpful and well presented. Appreciate your data based approach.
My body isn't so pleased with me after hitting that many shots to populate that dataset 🤣🤣👍🏻
Those results are wild. Who would have thought the HL would be the best for everyone (when they are looking for a game improvement club).
Every time people have tried them in the Custom Fitting process, they have been amazed at just how well they do. Mainly it's just the size etc that puts them off and go for a lesser performing option. 👍🏻
I found for my 7 iron swing speed of 87mph that bending the forged irons 2 degrees weak makes a world of difference. Better launch and descent angles make them much better overall
Considering the transition of the Forged lofting over the years, I don't doubt whatsoever that is functionality is improved immensely by the weakening of lofts. It's something that many golfers within their fittings should explore 👍🏻👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut so we are essentially saying that golf club manufacturers have done the majority of amateur golfers a great disservice by jacking up the lofts over the past ten or more years!
@zazhou not necessarily, what the main issue is that cranked irons that a very strong lofted have been marketed as Distance Irons where in actuality they really need to be re classified and potentially limited in club numbers not going all the way to 5 irons etc and say finishing at 7 iron. These 'Distance' irons are really handy fro slow swinging golfers that need the jacked lofts for the increased loft gaps between irons to get sensible distance gapping between clubs. The problem with them going to 5 iron etc is that with the slow swing they aren't able to launch the ball with enough peak height to make the 5 and 6 irons functional.
So a bit of a reclassification or re-education on understanding what they are for and who will benefit from them. 👍🏻👍🏻
That was exceptional. Nice and thorough
Thanks very much for the kind feedback 👍🏻
best data man in the game!
As a ~12 handicap with a 90mph 7 iron I got fit for a set of Mizuno JPX923 Hot Metal Pro (plus a JPX923 GW) with Project X LZ 6.5 shafts by the regional Mizuno rep for my area.
Only played with them 3 times so far so no Arccos data on them yet (takes 5 rounds), but they feel and look great and I'm scoring about the same as my old set. After I get more used to them I hope to see some improvement.
Would be interesting to see what the Gapping is like between them all at your head speed 👍
@@AskGolfNut I did a gapping session with my Garmin R10 and got these results:
Mizuno T22 58*: 94
T22 54*: 108
GW: 128
PW: 142
9i: 157
8i: 170
7i: 184
6i: 198
5i: 212
4i: 228
My standard shot is a 5-10 yard fade so I think that is why the stronger loft is still ok at my speed. When I tried to draw them they went probably 10+ yards longer but with much less height and stopping power.
Another Excellent vid. It gives me insight of what club do depend on the swing speed.
It's amazing how much the same clubs performance changes from good to bad to good again etc with just increasing and decreasing swing speed 👍🏻
I forgot to mention in my previous comment my miss is thin so low on the face and sometimes toe but not an extreme toe.
Shouldn’t we put into consideration also the attack angle ?
I’m a slow swinger (75-76 mph with the 7 iron) with shallow attack angle (-1 deg) and I’ve been fitted with the JPX923 HM Pro with NS Neo 95 GH shaft, that also help with launch, and the ball flight looked nice with good peak height (approx 27-28 yards) and decent descent angle.
Absolutely, that's why I put it all, in there for all to see. Generally though I see golfers attacking the golf ball too much even at reduced swing speeds. Even thd HL was designed on the back of the millions of swing captured by the Swing DNA tool which measure Angle of Attack, and it to saw the majority of slower swingers using too much shaft lean into impact curtailing their launch parameters.
The face that you run a - 1 AoA is testiment to you and I applaud you for generating the right launch conditions to maximise your club head speed 👍🏻👍🏻
Same here. I sort of "make it work" by only delofting about 2 degrees with my ~75mph (on a very good day) 7 iron swing speed. I also find that I can hold greens even with irons with about 24° of loft. But I also produce amounts of backspin, which really are bit strange for my swing speed. With what was considered very strong lofts in 2013, when I bought my current set (27° 6-iron), I often find my ball about 2 yards from its pitch mark, and that's on fairly firm greens. Could be a combination of low strikes and a shallow angle of attack and the ProV1X I use, ever since I won a dozen in club comp and fell in love with it 😁, I don't know. But Jay's videos still help me a lot, because I just try to calculate what his results would mean for me.
Please do a comparison by equalizing the lofts (weaken the 923 HM and HM pro to match HM HL) and see what differences there are (if any)
I'd be extremely worried about bending those cast heads, especially bending the HMs to the HL, the 243 will easily do the degree to match HL but I fear of having some snapped heads doing the same with the HMs.... 👍🏻
Thanks for the reply. Would be great if Mizuno would send you HM and HMP 7 irons with the HL loft - think HM pros with higher lofts with their less offset and smaller profile would sell great.
I do love your charts.
Everybody loves a chart 😀
Another excellent video Jay. I love Mizuno irons and I’ve been thinking about the Forged but I’m in the slow swing speed range now sadly. What I don’t like is wide soles as I’m a bit of a sweeper. Is there anything else you would recommend that looks a little better.
Great presentation as usual. As a high SS player looking for some forgiveness help, it seems that most mid tier forgiveness irons have jacked down lofts that hurt gapping for us. I'll wait for the Mizuno 24x series, but I may end up in the new apex line just to stay with more of a traditional loft(34⁰).
You could weaken off a set of the HLs to 32deg 7 iron etc bringing it into line with the Pro 223/243. The Pro line even the 245 with the huge tungsten upgrade won't compete with the HL on forgiveness 👍🏻
Exceptional video!
Thank you for the video. What was the descent angle for the Tour at 73 mph?
Very similar to the HL but at a distance disadvantage. So, whenever you have longer distance but either the same or greater peak height and descent angles then it's free distance / performance 👍🏻
Appreciate it! Merry Christmas!@@AskGolfNut
Awesome video. Just picked up a set of 223s but just can’t get along with the 6 iron. 75-78mph. From the top graph it looks like the forgers would not be that far behind the HL? For launch? I previously came for Hot metals just didn’t like the feel. Too clicky. Forged 6i a good option? But the HL is $50 cheaper 😂
I think yes that due to club head speed you have reached the point of diminishing returns and you don't necessarily see the performance with your 6 iron that you expect with every other iron. This would be the point where I would either suggest going to a larger construction head design to help launch, or more so transition into hybrids to gain back the control and the extra distance that the 6 iron club should give 👍🏻
Thanks for a very informative video. You seem to say that irrespective of swing speed(I'm probably in the middle) and looks and feel aside the HL is probably the best choice. My question is , I play on a links course where it is often windy, would you still recommend the HLs over the others ?
Good review for…. US …then Real Market Ijust find the descent angle a bit low…I would expect something around 40….45 Am I wrong ?
With increased speed, absolutely the descent angles will increase. However at very low speeds the descent angles are muted somewhat and it's much more a thing of trying to get them as, best as possible for as much control as possible. In the end, club head speed fixes many issues engineers and designers battle with with every new club release 👍🏻
Thanks Jay this is great data for us slower swing speed golfers, I know that shaft stiffness doesn't bother you but should 70mph+ be playing graphite shafts?
All depends on their individual loading. It can in many cases, work a bit backwards as when golfers get older and their range of motion reduces faster than their production of power in transition, then the shaft requirements can push certain senior golfers into the Stiff category completely outside of graphite. It's actually quite a common occurrence. They get straighter and have much more consistent flight with no trade off in distance. It's the importance of being correctly custom fitted by a fitter which ideally also Coaches as well as that'll give them a bi-directional insight 👍🏻
Love your reviews Jay…so detailed and so relevant. I am seriously looking at the JPX923 family but am undecided between the Forged and Hot Metal Pro. Would like the better feel of the Forged but would also like the extra distance of the HMP. Would a good compromise be getting the Forged 1° stronger so it is closer to the HMP? Do you think doing this would overly compromise the bounce of the club. My club head speed with a 7 iron on average is 84-86 mph.
I'd look to weaken the HMP rather than change the Forged. Mizuno don't tend to have massive amounts of Bounce so I'd rather keep as much on as possible 👍
Yes, that makes sense as I am playing Callaway Apex Pro’s with 2° stronger lofts and the turf interaction is not great. I just like the look of the Forged a bit more than the HMP and I like the little bit thinner top line and sole of the Forged as well
Jay, question why was the forged in last place for control for >90 mph?
It was so close between the Forged and the HM and HMP as they are the strongest loft of the range, but at high speeds the advantage that the super springy faces, extremely low CG heads of the HM and HMP just pip the Forged in descent angles but only by a tiny margin. I could have quite easily put them all at the same points score but there is a small difference so had to score them accordingly (in reality the descent angles were all crazy good at high speeds) 👍🏻
Makes me wonder why they produced so many variations of the hot metal
Basically the HM and HMP are for Distance and Forgiveness at medium swing speeds. The HMP for the player looking for all that but in a nicer looking design.
The Forged for the medium to faster swing speed golfer looking for a blend of feel, looks forgiveness and distance.
The Tour...... Well someone that likes a satin colour in their bladed irons 🤣
The HL is the stand out. Absolutely the best by miles under 70mph swing speed and in performance alone and not taking feel and aesthetics into account, it wins in performance category too.
I however like a smaller looking head design and the softer feeling of the true Forged blades, so for me it's the Pro 221s 😊
@@AskGolfNut is there any change in the hl at 80mph, carry wise. I’m very tempted to
You are looking at a carry of say about 155 at 80 mph, all things being equal. As soon as individual golfers get involved with all thd individual swing and strike differences, you have to understand how your own swing will affect the raw potential and determine what's realistic for you 👍🏻
Help.... Just had a fitting for irons. Hcp Index 16 swing speed 75 the JPX 923 HM HL comes out as the best club for me and it feels good. BUT I love the look of Ping I525 no I do not hit it as high or as long (about 5 yds less) so I am stuck between performance and looks/style. Do I go with the data or do I go with the looks ? Thx. PS great content thank you
Have you thought about retro specing the i525, or wait for the i530 iron which I will be reviewing very soon. If you retro spec them that would bring the lofts in line and you may gain your distance back with the looks that you want. Unfortunately there aren't any opportunities to test retro specing the so this part has to be done on trust with the person that is fitting you at the time 👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you. Im having a go tomorrow i will buy the best feel not the best look (I think!!)@@AskGolfNut
Sadly, I’m in the slower swing speed category or just a bit quicker. I can’t stand offset or a big club head either. How much difference can the shaft make in alleviating some of these issues with decent angle and such?
Some but honestly its relatively small, speed of the golfer and the dynamic loft they deliver from their swing will have the largest affect 👍
Great review Jay, question, as a long time player of i210s when I played 2 x week im now 59 and only play 2 x month so i traded my i210s for 923HM-HL, when I hit them perfect love the results but seems my misses are much more heavy, could that be due to wider soles?
Great video, the chart was helpful to see. I did an iron fitting and decided move away from the Callaway Rogue X irons to the HL's. Can't wait to see the difference between the two.
The Rogue Xs were mentally strong lofted even for modern day standards and in reality only functional for golfers of very low swing speeds which needed the larger loft gaps for functional distance gapping between irons but they could only use them down to say 8 iron being the strongest iron. The 7 iron and beyond would just flight the ball too flat and be very much uncontrollable. I think it's a good step forward you moving to a High Launch option as its the best of both worlds kind of golf club 👍🏻
Quick follow up...I love the HL irons! I got the regular, graphite shaft. My approach shots actually hit the greens and stop, giving me a chance to score. My only concern is I now have to club up by 2 to reach my normal yardages. It may be due to playing this late in the year, but that's an easy swap for the improved accuracy.@@AskGolfNut
How does the HL perform when mishits tend to be thin (the result of a positive AoA)? Would it still win the crown for forgiveness (75 mph swing speed) or would a different model better serve me. Prefer metal shafts. You used metal, right?
I used steel shafts yes but for me personally and only a tiny percentage of people are like me, that I'm not shaft sensitive so changing shaft has little to no effect on ball flight. The vast majority of golfers as hugely affected by shaft change.
The HL if we are talking aboit low on the face strikes will always be the best option apart from say going full hybrid head design for your irons. I would though very much explore the possibility of working on the swing as well as that will by far have the greatest impact on your golf ⛳ 👍🏻👍🏻
What shaft, Jay ??
You know me 😊 haven't got a clue 🤣 would absolutely make a huge difference for 99% of golfers though getting the right shaft to ensure the right bend profile is used 👍🏻
Jay
Do you have the new pro series irons in hand yet
Looking to swap my gen3 Pxg”s and waiting on the release reviews to book a fitting
Keep up the great content
Hi Gary, I would say jump on Mondays Live Stream for the complete update but I'm not doing an Open All Access Live Stream until first week or so in January. I'm doing one this Monday coming with all the information but its a Members Only Live Stream (I do Members Only Live Streams every Monday evening). You are more than welcome to pop on my UA-cam Homepage and click the JOIN Button for more info 👍
Jay
Much appreciated
Will do
I’d be interested to see the HL with your actual swing speed lol
To the moon....... 😊 👍🏻
Seems like they absolutely missed the mark with the forged when you look at this. I think if the forged had more traditional lofts they would of preformed much better
There has been many golfers that have chosen the Forged and went in favour of just weakening the loft off maybe a degree or so which does reduce the distance a touch but also gives it better launch, peak height and descent angles. Don't forget though that this rating is all about performance and has absolutely no weighting in their for aesthetics and feel. If I was to include those 2 the Forged rockets up the table 👍🏻
As you stated "Feel" is important, i need forgiving and high launch clubs BUT if they have no feel i just hack-em, yer sounds dumb its like hitting a rubber mallet - dead as. i don't think i will ever find something that suits my budget, just have to stick with my old i200's that i brought 2nd hand.
The i200 irons are great irons, and the i230 irons are also, a touch more forgiving than the original i200s but with all the same feel and arguably slightly better looks, probably that would be a decent upgrade or whatever the i230 will be in the future 👍🏻
ST Max fairways please 😂😂
No probs coming sometime in the year 2134 if Mizuno ever get the samples out to review 🤣🤣
So basically all of them within 3 yards carry difference, despite all the different angles. Even the Tour was there or thereabouts. All those other numbers are meaningless to most of us. Conclusion…buy them but buy the cheapest and don’t buy the Tour.
That's true for the distance side of things but the Forgiveness is very different. Also the above is true when you swing at 73 mph, as soon as you change speed, they all change dramatically either slower or faster you swing so this is really to show at what point the clubs start to blend and then also separate in their performance differences 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut but you can't know how the gapping distances vary change on a particular set unless you test all or at least most of the clubs in a set. Testing a 7 iron only will not tell you anything about gapping.
Gapping between iron sets is directly comparable from the very good estimation point of view when seeing the loft specifications. It's fair to say that the, same golfer, with the, same swing dynamics will have closer distance gaps when using a traditional 4 to 3 degree loft gap set to that of a larger loft gap set of other irons. It's not an exact science on estimation but it is a very very good and fair assumption to know the distance gaps increase with the stronger gapped irons 👍🏻 👍🏻
@@AskGolfNut Trouble is with the longer irons the swing dynamics are likely to change as the clubs are more difficult to control for the average golfer. going through some fittings at the moment and only looking for club demo days where i can hit the longest club in the bag (5 or 6 iron) as well as the 7 and PW. Just done Titleist with T350 and confirmed i can hit the 5 iron with acceptable carry and descent angle - achieved by 1 degree weaker loft thru the set. Rather do this than base on estimate off the 7 iron numbers.
I agree that that is the optimal way to think about it but in practice and for the vast majority of golfers they only have the 7 irons available during testing. A good fitter though should be able to accurately determine what the launch potential is for longer irons after the 7 iron and then suggest either the changing of loft or correct transition to hybrids or alike 👍🏻
15-17yd roll out for 7iron?? Yea no thnx. 👎🏻
These were tested on fairway landing conditions rather than green as I didn't want anything like dispersion left and right and also front and back to warp the data. Best thing to do is ignore the total roll out distance and focus on the individual peak height and decent angles as they will be a much better reflection of green holding 👍🏻
Got a fitting coming up figure out what mizuno iron is right for me
Make sure they use the Swing DNA Shaft Analyser tool. Mizuno base their whole fitting ethos around it's use and it cuts down shaft selection by a crazy amount. I ddi a recent video on it, well worth giving it a watch if you are soon for a fitting 👍🏻👍🏻