Verdi was in the late 1900 century using 12-TET or equal temperament and not pythagorean tuning. In the 1800 century a lot of composers were using meantone temprement with more pure thirds than 12-TET as they saw this as the most important interval.. Using 432Hz as your reference point with 12-TET rather than 440Hz is Verdi tuning.. This tuning creates much more clean register breaks for the voices in his operas (and for my voice by the way).. But you probably need to intonate the bridge slightly to compensate for the new tuning.
awesomeaudiochannel great work keep it working! ... After many years of being interested in these concepts of true temperament and fanned fret stuff I started thinking that fretless is the way to go... a bit difficult for chords I know haha but worth trying, greetings!
Wow finally someone who really understands and explain clearly on this topic. Thank you ! Do you know by any change if there are guitars avaiable that are fretted for the verdi scale ? Or can an existing fretboard be refretted by a guitarspecilaist ? Till that moment i will use equal tempered with A432. Thank you again !
Hello! yes, I had an annotation mentioning it, but UA-cam has removed all annotations. Look up "just intonation fretboard" on Google Images and you'll see what you really need to play just intonation on a guitar!
3:49 "these descrepencies" you're talking about are already present no matter what tuning you use though...on every standard guitar that has even frets, the G note will be a little off. that's why they make those guitars with weird squiggly frets...not sure what those are called. I actually tried tuning to A=432 Hz and it seems pretty damn in tune to me when I compare up and down the fretboard
+danimalplanimal I'm not a actual guitarist so I didn't know about that G note, I'll look into that. However, as I've explained in the video, the problem with "432 Hz" tuning isn't the actual frequency. You can tune to any frequency without any problems as long as you do it in equal temperament. The problem rather lies in that when people tune to "432 Hz", they usually tune the strings to frequencies obtained through pythagorean tuning, while guitars are constructed with the spacing between frets to produce equal temperament.
AwesomeAudioChannel well yeah, as someone who plays guitar I'll fill that in...on guitar the jump from the G to the B string (3rd string to 2nd string) is always the most out of tune, but basically every note is actually slightly out of tune, which is why you have guitars that look like this in order to correct for that. ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fgeargods.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2FStrandberg-Fan-Fret-True-Temperament.png&sp=87016b2460d22eb0f0b0ebec63893c86 so that's already a problem for guitars even tuned at A=440 Hz...I don't know if it's actually less of a problem in A=432Hz, but there you have it. I'm just not quite sure I understand your argument, since the frets are always equal lengths apart no matter how tight the strings are
+Yard Sale Dale Thanks. A previous comment let me know of true temperament fretboards with appear to be the same thing, but it's good to know them by another name too! I actually added a note pointing them out at 3:54
Too much gawd damn math! My calculator over heats when I try to figure all this out. What does 12th root of 2 mean anyway ? I'm sure there is an answer, but it isn't exact. What I need is an exact number like in millimeters and decimals. I can figure that out. If a note is ever so slightly sharp or flat nobody listening would be able to tell the difference anyway -- just get them another beer.
Hello! The special significance of the 12th root of 2 is that this is the ratio between the frequencies of two adjacent semitones. The 12 comes from the number of semitones in an octave, the 2 comes from the doubling of frequency when going up a full octave. I have other videos that talk about this more in detail. And the vibrating length of a string directly correlates with the frequency it produces, which is why we use this number. If you want a number with actual decimals, the 12th root of 2 is equal to 1.059463... except I have to truncate decimals because they go forever. But in a nutshell, you start with the scale length of the guitar, and each time you divide this length by 1.059463..., you get to the fret of next semitone. This is why the distances shrink as you go to higher frets. But all in all, music is a highly mathematical art, especially when you dabble with technical aspects like building instruments or sound design :P
@@AwesomeAcoustics I get it my friend. I can look up a fret scale chart from StewMac and be as accurate as I need to be. I don't build many Mandolins, but I have a banjolin in the works at a future date. I've got a nice chunk of Indian rosewood picked out for the fret board I've had for close to 20 some years. 'Twould be nice to put it to good use, would you agree ?
@@AwesomeAcoustics Thanks. I divided the scale length I want by the 1.059463 for each fret position, wrote down the numbers and was satisfied that the 12th fret number was exactly the same as from measuring from the nut end of fret board. By measuring from the saddle end (opposite end of the scale, not accounting for "compensation") these numbers, by all accounts, do work as they should, of course. Even tho I am American, I still use metric measurements whenever possible. A single millimeter being .039" is highly accurate, and is the basis of the meter (39"), whereas the "yard" is only 36". Much more difficult to incorporate into our non-metric system because of decimal fractions added on to inches. For example, .... .875" equals 7/8". I worked in a furniture factory where all the cutting machines, boring machines, etc, where in metric measurements. No more hassle with fractions. A very efficient system for us stupid Yanks. Cheers, friend. Thanks for this 12th root of 2 number. Bob
@@robertshorthill4153 Hey! I have to give it to you for getting your hands dirty with the math and arrive to a nice conclusion/proof. Maths can be daunting at first, but once you get your head around them, they can be satisfying too!
Maybe if you watch videos 3 and 4 of my series you'll get a better hang of it!! My videos typically depend on stuff you learned on previous videos which is why I have numbered them. ua-cam.com/video/zs4kNBa-Mj0/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/Q-0wBlkjGQo/v-deo.html Hope it helps!
OK, there seems to be a misconception here. True Temperament are designed for equal temperament, not for just intonation of any sort. The issue with standard frets and the calculations that are usually done for determining the spacing between them is that the action of the strings, meaning their distance from the fretboard, is never taken into account. This is a problem. When you're pressing the string to touch the fret, the string tension changes, and you're basically invalidating the calculation done for the fret you're pressing. So, let's say that you tune with your C4 at 256Hz. On a standard fretboard, as you go for the next semitone (C#) you'd be expecting to go a 12th root of 2 higher, at approximately 271.22Hz, but you don't -- you're going slightly sharper because you're stretching the string. On a True Temperament fretboard however, you do to the next tone correctly because the fret's position accounts for this stretch. This is also why True Temperament frets work for standard tuning only, with specific string gauges (from 0.009 to 0.050). Altering the proper action of a True Temperament guitar becomes a bit harder, if you really want to retain the benefits of these frets.
thanks friend! could you give me more information about the specific gauges of the rest of the strings? Where did you get this info? very interesting, thanks
lol. i have the secret. buy my guitars and you shall have it also. i am has solved the problem. my guitars play completely just and perfect intervals and are polyphonic without any of the problems occuring here.
![05 Just intonation and tuning to alternative frequencies [NEW VERSION IN THE DESCRIPTION]](/img/n.gif)
New video about 432 Hz tuning!: ua-cam.com/video/lMS30ybk1_w/v-deo.html
Great video. It was trying to determine if a short scale bass was going to help with my stubby fingers and this calculation worked perfectly!
Great video, you explain it well.
Verdi was in the late 1900 century using 12-TET or equal temperament and not pythagorean tuning. In the 1800 century a lot of composers were using meantone temprement with more pure thirds than 12-TET as they saw this as the most important interval..
Using 432Hz as your reference point with 12-TET rather than 440Hz is Verdi tuning.. This tuning creates much more clean register breaks for the voices in his operas (and for my voice by the way)..
But you probably need to intonate the bridge slightly to compensate for the new tuning.
Sir, can you sent me one pdf
awesomeaudiochannel great work keep it working! ... After many years of being interested in these concepts of true temperament and fanned fret stuff I started thinking that fretless is the way to go... a bit difficult for chords I know haha but worth trying, greetings!
I played a fretted bass for 40 years before trying a fretless. Now I would never go back to a fretted. So much easier.
You should align the neck with the middle of the body and the bridge axe..
Wow finally someone who really understands and explain clearly on this topic. Thank you ! Do you know by any change if there are guitars avaiable that are fretted for the verdi scale ? Or can an existing fretboard be refretted by a guitarspecilaist ? Till that moment i will use equal tempered with A432. Thank you again !
Hello! yes, I had an annotation mentioning it, but UA-cam has removed all annotations. Look up "just intonation fretboard" on Google Images and you'll see what you really need to play just intonation on a guitar!
@@AwesomeAcoustics thank you very much !
How you solve i don't know how to solve this mathematic please can you help me
Great video what is the formula used for a micro-tonal guitar to know the distance between quarter tones?
Hello! By quarter tones, do you mean half of a semitone? If so, you use the same formula as 1:31, but you just change the 12th root to a 24th root
3:49 "these descrepencies" you're talking about are already present no matter what tuning you use though...on every standard guitar that has even frets, the G note will be a little off. that's why they make those guitars with weird squiggly frets...not sure what those are called. I actually tried tuning to A=432 Hz and it seems pretty damn in tune to me when I compare up and down the fretboard
+danimalplanimal I'm not a actual guitarist so I didn't know about that G note, I'll look into that. However, as I've explained in the video, the problem with "432 Hz" tuning isn't the actual frequency. You can tune to any frequency without any problems as long as you do it in equal temperament.
The problem rather lies in that when people tune to "432 Hz", they usually tune the strings to frequencies obtained through pythagorean tuning, while guitars are constructed with the spacing between frets to produce equal temperament.
AwesomeAudioChannel
well yeah, as someone who plays guitar I'll fill that in...on guitar the jump from the G to the B string (3rd string to 2nd string) is always the most out of tune, but basically every note is actually slightly out of tune, which is why you have guitars that look like this in order to correct for that.
ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fgeargods.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2FStrandberg-Fan-Fret-True-Temperament.png&sp=87016b2460d22eb0f0b0ebec63893c86
so that's already a problem for guitars even tuned at A=440 Hz...I don't know if it's actually less of a problem in A=432Hz, but there you have it. I'm just not quite sure I understand your argument, since the frets are always equal lengths apart no matter how tight the strings are
+Yard Sale Dale Thanks. A previous comment let me know of true temperament fretboards with appear to be the same thing, but it's good to know them by another name too! I actually added a note pointing them out at 3:54
So what you're saying is that this tuning would work best for slide guitar
Very cool. Thanks
Too much gawd damn math! My calculator over heats when I try to figure all this out. What does 12th root of 2 mean anyway ? I'm sure there is an answer, but it isn't exact. What I need is an exact number like in millimeters and decimals. I can figure that out. If a note is ever so slightly sharp or flat nobody listening would be able to tell the difference anyway -- just get them another beer.
Hello! The special significance of the 12th root of 2 is that this is the ratio between the frequencies of two adjacent semitones. The 12 comes from the number of semitones in an octave, the 2 comes from the doubling of frequency when going up a full octave. I have other videos that talk about this more in detail.
And the vibrating length of a string directly correlates with the frequency it produces, which is why we use this number.
If you want a number with actual decimals, the 12th root of 2 is equal to 1.059463... except I have to truncate decimals because they go forever.
But in a nutshell, you start with the scale length of the guitar, and each time you divide this length by 1.059463..., you get to the fret of next semitone. This is why the distances shrink as you go to higher frets.
But all in all, music is a highly mathematical art, especially when you dabble with technical aspects like building instruments or sound design :P
@@AwesomeAcoustics I get it my friend. I can look up a fret scale chart from StewMac and be as accurate as I need to be. I don't build many Mandolins, but I have a banjolin in the works at a future date. I've got a nice chunk of Indian rosewood picked out for the fret board I've had for close to 20 some years. 'Twould be nice to put it to good use, would you agree ?
@@AwesomeAcoustics Thanks. I divided the scale length I want by the 1.059463 for each fret position, wrote down the numbers and was satisfied that the 12th fret number was exactly the same as from measuring from the nut end of fret board. By measuring from the saddle end (opposite end of the scale, not accounting for "compensation") these numbers, by all accounts, do work as they should, of course. Even tho I am American, I still use metric measurements whenever possible. A single millimeter being .039" is highly accurate, and is the basis of the meter (39"), whereas the "yard" is only 36". Much more difficult to incorporate into our non-metric system because of decimal fractions added on to inches. For example, .... .875" equals 7/8". I worked in a furniture factory where all the cutting machines, boring machines, etc, where in metric measurements. No more hassle with fractions. A very efficient system for us stupid Yanks. Cheers, friend. Thanks for this 12th root of 2 number. Bob
@@robertshorthill4153 Hey! I have to give it to you for getting your hands dirty with the math and arrive to a nice conclusion/proof. Maths can be daunting at first, but once you get your head around them, they can be satisfying too!
Well u lost me after 12th root of 2. I think I'll stick to failing at just playing guitar...
Maybe if you watch videos 3 and 4 of my series you'll get a better hang of it!! My videos typically depend on stuff you learned on previous videos which is why I have numbered them.
ua-cam.com/video/zs4kNBa-Mj0/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/Q-0wBlkjGQo/v-deo.html
Hope it helps!
i just want to tune the guitar to 432 hz,,, without tuner,,, old scool... Jesus..
It’s actually Pythagorean and Verdi tuning that is old school. Respect.
see true temperament fretboards (swedish invention)
I did not know these existed prior to this video. Thank you very much, will add as a note
OK, there seems to be a misconception here.
True Temperament are designed for equal temperament, not for just intonation of any sort. The issue with standard frets and the calculations that are usually done for determining the spacing between them is that the action of the strings, meaning their distance from the fretboard, is never taken into account. This is a problem. When you're pressing the string to touch the fret, the string tension changes, and you're basically invalidating the calculation done for the fret you're pressing.
So, let's say that you tune with your C4 at 256Hz. On a standard fretboard, as you go for the next semitone (C#) you'd be expecting to go a 12th root of 2 higher, at approximately 271.22Hz, but you don't -- you're going slightly sharper because you're stretching the string. On a True Temperament fretboard however, you do to the next tone correctly because the fret's position accounts for this stretch. This is also why True Temperament frets work for standard tuning only, with specific string gauges (from 0.009 to 0.050). Altering the proper action of a True Temperament guitar becomes a bit harder, if you really want to retain the benefits of these frets.
thanks friend! could you give me more information about the specific gauges of the rest of the strings? Where did you get this info? very interesting, thanks
Take a look here: www.truetemperament.com/faq/#A4
lol. i have the secret. buy my guitars and you shall have it also. i am has solved the problem. my guitars play completely just and perfect intervals and are polyphonic without any of the problems occuring here.