@GoggyL29 I agree. Jacqueline Kennedy really understood optics and what that image of her in that blood-stained dress would mean to the history of the Kennedy Presidency. It was not only shocking for the nation to see more evidence of the assassination, but it was such an iconic photograph and made people realize how close she had also come to being killed. The thought of her gathering her husband's scattered brain matter is truly heartbreaking.
But did her 2 daughters die? Did you see their bodies? Why would they even say they were cremated? They just cremated 3 humans without the families involved giving permission? Is it possible something else happened
As the 63 year old daughter of Irish Catholics who emigrated to the US in 1950, I fully understand what having a president who was a Catholic of Irish heritage meant to many people. His true character and the terrible way he treated his wife were largely hidden from the public. Also, we should be careful about applying modern standards to people living in a different era. My own mother, who was a nurse before her marriage, stayed in that unhappy relationship partly due to the stigma attached to annulment and divorce, as well as the struggle of raising 7 children almost alone. Even someone of Jacqueline Kennedy's class would have suffered opprobrium. As always, enjoying your review.
My life almost mirrors yours. My Irish immigrant parents watched the Kennedy presidency from England and told us 8 kids all about the Kennedys celebrity and greatness. They would have had no idea about the scandals , just being Irish was enough. If only they knew.
I'm 70, we were Catholic and at the time just being a Catholic was enough to adore him. I am glad neither of my parents or grandparents are alive to see what horrible people they were.
When Jackie married Onassis people lost their minds..it seems they expected her to nit have a life. She married Onassis fir protection. When Robert Kennedy was assassinated, Jackie said , "they're killing Kennedys" & she left the United States
Good grief that poor woman went through a lot. She must have suffered from PTSD after the assassination alone. Never mind the treatment she endured prior to that. I'm amazed she was able to move forward with as much dignity as she appeared to, on the surface at least.
After my first miscarriage many years ago, my elderly aunt told me about when her son was stillborn in the late 50s. He was taken from her before she could see or hold him. A nurse felt sorry for her and risked her job to bring her baby back to her during the night so she could say goodbye to him. She was then sent home a couple of days later and she never spoke of it again. She was in 70s when she told me this.
If I recall correctly the Kennedys Jack and Jackie were receiving shots for energy…..which was possibly amphetamines bc it was in vogue then….I know this bc my mom was on them. Dr gave them to her for weight loss. Back in the 50’s u could refill a script ongoing they had no expiration
JFK Jr. was born a year and a half before me. My mother's OB/GYN convinced her to stop smoking when she was pregnant with me. This is part of the lore of my birth is the only reason I know. Maybe some doctors weren't anti-smoking then, but at least one was.
It's difficult for younger people today to understand what smoking culture was like in the 50s and 60s. Patients and visitors were allowed to smoke IN the hospital. The connection between tobacco and disease was barely known, let alone understood. It was extremely common for women to smoke (and drink) throughout their pregnancies and doctors generally didn't discourage it like they do today.
The Kennedys were scumbags as far as I'm concerned but wow that description of JFK's assassination was horrific, really sad. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
@@cheeredeniseit seemed that in those last moments of his life all his affairs-misgivings and stds AND his disregard to Jackie were forgotten and forgiven? she still cried when he died! Fascinating
I found Jackie After Jack Christopher Anderson for 1.49 the old book 1998 The first chapter is very toxic my goodness I think that one moment she just went completely numb . Then the PSTD came and just never left .
I understand what you’re saying about the smoking, but as someone who’d been addicted to cigarettes it was an extremely difficult addiction to overcome. It was only through God’s grace I overcame it and I had nicotine patches available. The knowledge of nicotine’s damage was not as known or accepted in that era. It was still widely accepted with commercials on TV, magazines and even newspapers pushing it. As with all history we have a tendency to judge in our time with the benefit of gained knowledge choices made by people past times.
Yayyyy. Am unwell in bed and is just what was needed. This book blew my mind. Like the mountbattens, why do these ppl seem incapable of fidelity and respect!
Back then, smoking while pregnant was not regarded as a big deal. Neither, btw, was drinking. Not one woman I know (including myself) was advised to quit smoking. In fact, most OB-Gynecologists had an ashtray on their desk. Not promoting smoking while pregnant, just trying to set the record straight. I did smoke, and did have four healthy babies. The Kennedy wives were extremely judgmental.
@@CornbreadOraclepeople smoked everywhere! No restrictions. And people included doctors, patients, nurses - everyone! It was a much different world then.
I agree with the statement, I remember both my OB-GYN's smoked. It certainly wasn't a big deal to smoke. In fact, my OB-GYN prescribed me diet pills during my pregnancy in 1969!! So much we didn't know at the time. So I would be surprised that the Kennedy people were critical of smoking.
There's never an attachment to the person they used and abused, their fuel source. They only a source to make them look good, achieve their purpose. It's the other person who had the feelings.
I just want to add, my Grandmother told me, everyone smoked back in those days. Unfortunately, even when the women were pregnant, they smoked like chimneys. The dangers of it were not as well known back then. I'm going to give Jackie a pass for this.
My mother smoked all the way through her 4 pregnancies and drank. She told me in the nursing home she stayed in after the births that the nurses came and took the babies so the mothers could have a cigarette break.
Yes indeed everyone smoked in those days, I remember being stuck in cars with adults in the 60s where more than one person was smoking and feeling sick. There was no taboo, that started in the 80s but slowly . Same with alcohol women smoked and drank in pregnancy up until quite recently.
Possibly. Pregnancy is a delicate thing, soooo many seemingly small things can affect it by themselves, and they compound. My first stop with mult miscarriages is rh- blood.
It really makes you wonder if the ashes being scattered at sea was all for show so no one would look for their graves. Especially John's. That would be of great concern to the Kennedys.
Agreed. This was clearly a show since no other Kennedy was ever buried at sea, for any reason. And no other Kennedy was ever cremated. Pure theatrics imo.
Idk...I believe the remains were indeed cremated. None of their bodies were inact when found. Why this author fails to explain the "burial at sea" is just strange. I do recall at the time reports coming out that Carolyns mother in particular was not at all happy & blamed John's recklessness.. which is essentially what happened here...JFK Jr was not qualified to fly alone that night
Re: baby Arabella and the stillbirth, my mom gave birth to my brother in December, 1964. She had smoked through all prior pregnancies but was only informed with this pregnancy that it was unhealthy for the baby and she promptly quit. When I Googled Arabella, she was born in 1956 so it's possible that Jackie was unaware of the effects of smoking on a fetus. I mean, there's always common sense, but apparently, people didn't realize it at the time. My mom told me once that she was horrified when she discovered the fact and quit cold turkey for good. As an aside, Jack Kennedy was a real piece of work! Then again, look how he was raised.
Women were still smoking & drinking alcohol while pregnant in the 1970’s. I was Director of a chemical dependency clinic starting in 1988 & while addressing staying sober we also educated women about their smoking while pregnant. Tough issue, they wouldn’t give up cigarettes if they were trying to stop drinking. So glad women are better educated these days.
This is so fascinating, l was a 14 year old British girl when JFK was assassinated.l knew that they had lost their son Patrick and remember the funeral with John saluting his father’s coffin. As an adult l have seen programmes about the Kennedy’s. The perspective from which this is written makes it compelling listening and l love your delivery style. Only those who frequently frequent the Mediterranean call it The Med. A modern day version of it is those who visit the Spanish city of Marbella frequently call it Marbs 🙄🤷♀️ denoting in their eyes that that they are so familiar with it and that they are not ordinary tourists. It is an affectation which is supposed to impress but merely causes us to roll our eyes 🙄
Sad to say, the Kennedy family, imo, were master conspiracists. Start with Rosemary, and her fate, then move forward all the way to RFK, Jr. There were no ethics, no principles, and no moral compass. I’m old enough to remember most of this only too well. Consequently, I am so over the Kennedy family. And yes, I did read the book.
I am also old enough to remember these things. I agree with you -- I've been over this family for a *long* time. The hero worship associated with them is so misplaced and unfounded. The truth is important in terms of historical figures.
Do not forget that old man Joe Kennedy was a rum runner (breaking the law) during prohibition. Rum running is how old Joe got rich, just like the gangsters! A lot of PR $ to give old Joe a hidden past & make-over. Old Joe was in bed with the mob, the corrupt politicians & union bosses. So old Joe made sure his boys married into America’s high society & like Jackie her family had pedigree but no $.
I've read the book too. It's generations of creeps, rapists, murderers, liars, and more. Disgusting and even more disgusting how so many of them, blood and married, created grandiose stories of their greatness.
Joe Kennedy had Rosemary given a lobotomy, Rose found out & was livid. Rosemary was the most beautiful of all the Kennedys, but prone to outbursts & Joe was embarrassed by her lack of perfection. Kit Kennedy was the favorite girl, but Rose turned her back on her when she married again. When interviewed for a book, old men in England got teary when recalling her.
I was still seven years old, in the second grade in a new town. The phone on the classroom wall rang. The teacher answered it, her face fell, and she silently left the room. Thirty of us waited quietly, it seemed strange. When she came back she was pushing a TV in on a cart. After hooking it up, still silent, she turned it on. We watched as whatever channel gave the news that the President had been assassinated. I learned the word "assassinated" at that time. Then school let out early. I walked the mile home to a house that would still be empty for several hours.
@@sopol6111 Thank you.❤ What a sad time it was. Although by now we've probably all seen worse tragedies, I never saw so many adults crying. It sure did leave an impression.
Nowadays, some parents would sue the school district. I was seven when MLK and RFK were killed and don't remember the response, but we were living in South Carolina.
Once again, this is why cheating is not just a terrible betrayal of the heart, but also putting someone’s longterm HEALTH at risk! This poor woman suffered pregnancy losses and it was all her husband’s fault 😑
As a grown woman who knew her husband was a philanderer, she had a responsibility to get tested for herself- but also for any babies too. Its pretty easy to not get victimized in that situation but she just declined and bloodwork or physicals while pregnant or trying? Come on.
@laurasalo6160 Get tested? One didn't just pop into the local Planned Parenthood to get tested back then. Her doctor would have advised her to be a better wife so her husband didn't stray, it would have leaked to the press, and she would have been blamed for everything.
@@laurasalo6160 The shame she would have endured as her doctor advised her to be a better wife would be enough of deterrent. But it would have been very risky too. All it would take was one person in that office to tell their spouse or bestie, "Can you believe that Mrs. KENNEDY came into the office today to get tested for gonorrhea? I would have never thought she was the type of woman to sleep around. And to accuse the Senator of disloyalty to hide her own behavior..." It would have ruined the lot of them.
Sadly, I can imagine a Mother slapping her daughter in the face, continuing into her 20’s. The last time my Mother slapped me in the face I was 29 years old and had just had surgery for endometriosis without telling her. I did not want her to come to town and make it all about herself. She found out from an Aunt who was not supposed to tell. She immediately drove 10 hours just to make it all about herself and what a bad child I was to have her Mother (my Grandmother) sneak me to a surgery behind her back, that was HER Mom. She was my Mom and it was her right to be there during my surgery. I took my children and left my own house while I was in incredible pain because she refused to leave when I asked her to go because I would not be beaten under my own roof. I never saw her alive again. She died of after effects from a house fire less than 6 months later. You would not believe the bad things that I can simply set to the side for later.
Obviously, your mother was quite ill. It’s unfortunate for both of you (especially you, the child of this woman) that it went unrecognized, and she didn’t get serious treatment.
Your story Boudi,made me cry. Mothers are supposed to care, love and nurture us. You mentioned your children,I hope there’re a respite from your pain. I also wanted a mother ,who would give blessed memories,but It wasn’t to be. Please ,feel my arms around you ,giving you a hug. I would venture you’ve surpassed your hurt and sorrow and enjoy your children and are loved and respected. ❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️
This past Sunday I was walking in Tribeca and I walked past John Jr and Carolyn’s apartment on 20 North Moore St. Seeing that building made me think of what I read with this book and your book review so far with John and Carolyn.
I don't think you take into account how things were back there. Catholics didn't divorce, you just got on with it. And i don't think it was known back in the 60's that cigarettes could damage babies.
Sadly, we've had several tragic deaths in our immediate family. I can tell you that that kind of grief (intense and deeply traumatic) changes you forever. Not just emotionally, but biologically as well. I always thought of grief as an emotional event. But trauma changes the brain's biology. It changes your persona. That's why I'm not surprised that Jackie became a different person.
I was never a huge Jackie fan but listening to you read the account of what she endured when her husband was killed.. brought me to tears. Like you, I have read the history books but never thought how that horrific time must have been in her mind for the rest of her life.
Yes! That is why she married Onassis. He had the money to protect her and keep her safe and in seclusion, especially on Skorpios his private, secure and isolated Greek Island.
Bringing children into middle and upper class American families was very different back then. Pregnancy was looked upon as an embarrassing condition that needed to be hidden and disguised. "Baby bumps" were hidden under large volumes of clothing. They were generally not talked about, and if fathers wanted to be in the hospital when their babies "arrived", they were kept well away from the delivery rooms. I'm just saying it was a bit different than it is now, fathers were not generally allowed to be so involved in the process.
@@silva7493 Pushing back just a little. Pregnancy was not an embarrassing condition to be in for a married lady. It was, however, not flaunted nor spoken about in mixed company or with strangers. Opinion. If the only two choices were the maternity clothing worn in the late 50's early 60's and what passes for maternity fashion in the 2020's, I'll take the more modest clothing. Thankyouverymuch.
@@jlennon1779 You aren't pushing back. I'm in complete agreement. I was just trying to offer an explanation for why back then, fathers often didn't start to bond until they were presented with a live baby. I too much prefer wearing and seeing looser clothing.
@@jlennon1779 correct - not hidden nor embarrassing - there would unlikely be many of us around if that were the case . But certainly - it was a" condition " that was accepted but seldom spoke about - certainly in mixed company . I would say 99% of it was on the woman . If a husband was available to lend assistance to his wife - it was a luxury more than an accepted custom - "she got a good one" . Some of the enjoyment of this book is to listen to the descriptions and reactions of people of how these events are portrayed and it is interesting to observe how much society has changed - for i am old enough to remember what it was like and some of these things that are being met with gasps / groans were quite accepted during that time - it is especially true within catholic families - which i was from . That is another thing i have noticed . There are a lot of things in this book - that taken into context - in particular an extremely wealthy catholic family - that are not at all shocking. Again - I am from one - so a lot things i am hearing are - yeah so .
My aunt was pregnant about the same time as Jackie. My aunt was skinny, she'd stand with a cup of coffee in one hand and a cigarette in the other. Nothing was said about smoking when pregnant.
People today have no idea the impact this woman had on the world. In my school homeroom alone, there were 4 girls named Jacqueline - each of whom were named after the young, vibrant, classy, beautiful First Lady.
Had my brother (born in Jan 1962) been a girl, my mom was going to name her Caroline, having great admiration for the First Lady. We lived with my grandmother, who had an 8x10 picture of JFK on the wall of the living room. I was only 4 when he was assassinated, and really didn’t understand what had happened, only that the special news coverage was preempting my Flintstones’ cartoons. But I have a vivid memory of the drum cadence and the funeral procession, with my head on my grandma’s lap as she sobbed.
@@suenonemaker6470So true! I was born in 1962, Irish Catholic. It was common to see photos of JFK in a home. We were sold a bill of goods with Camelot.
I remember people being absolutely glued to the broadcast covering Jackie’s redoing the White House decor… discussing China patterns, wallpaper and such; and people were rapt with attention.
As a child in the Irish countryside of the early 1990s, many homes still had a painting or photograph of JFK alongside the Pope and Jesus, Mary and their sacred hearts. It was seen as a huge deal in Ireland to have an "Irish American" Catholic become a US president, even decades later.
@smartmarketing173 Jackie was the first to actually improve and beautify the White house..getting historians advice and making it a great place to welcome digitaries!
Jackie married her father for fame and wealth. John jr then married his mother. BTW Grace Kelly was known for her many "romantic", if short, relationships before she also traded real love for a royal title. More than one biography documents this.
That's a good analogy. Black Jack was a womanizer like her father with charisma and charm. Caroline looked like Jackie,only blonde; and she was stylish,tall and domineering.
My mom would always say, "Poor Mrs. Kennedy. " My parents didn't vote for Kennedy because they knew about his womanizing. Even here in the Midwest, people knew about his sexual activities. My grandma's neighbor son worked in DC. So they would get the latest gossip from there. I actually got tired of hearing about poor Mrs. Kennedy. I told my mom she knew what she was getting herself into. She wanted the power of Kennedys, and Jack wanted a wife who was culture for a first lady.
They are quite lucky then. My SIL smoked during the 60’s with all three children, all three had holes in their hearts and would be smaller than ‘normal’ They’d continue with heart problems and limitations because of it.
I don't think this book had room to adequately discuss Rose and Joe Kennedy. That's a whole other book. I don't think an honest biography exists about Rose and Joe.
Thanks Cheere it was excellent. I grew up during the time of Camelot as it was named. Words can’t describe how people in the Irish Catholic community and overall were so entranced with this family. I think in a way you would have had to live it to understand it.
@darkprincesssmelly: The cigarette companies knew. They had been doing research on cigarettes for years and continued doing so for even more years. And they lied. They lied to the public full of pregnant women, coughing men, people who were already dying but didn't know it, and the courts. Sounds just like the pharmaceutical companies of today. They were all lying out of greed. The powerful never change.
Hi Cheere! I'm so glad to hear another episode. I remember watching the Kennedy and Bessette families on the boat for the burial at sea after their bodies were all discovered. It was so sad. ❤😢
Many, many, many women smoked back in the day...my mom did...thankfully she didn't take thalidomide for nausea with my sister or I...women also drank...
The Kennedy's 'faith' was a religious facade that had no impact on their personal lives. It never would have occurred to them that the Bible had anything to do with the way they live. 2 Tim 3 vs 5 I am THOROUGHLY enjoying this, Cheerie. It is deeply disturbing, even if it was accepted that men have affairs during that era among the rich and/or aristocratic . It's the utter disregard of the women and the high levels of Narcissism that make me cringe. No introspection of JFK either personal or within his family. I've read other books and the depiction of Joe and Rose Kennedy and their children is truly a horror story. I'd love to read a book that deep dives into these Narcissistic psychopaths. Glad they weren't my parents!!!!
you really throw words around loosely - without really understanding what they mean - and that is not only a demonstration of true ignorance it is kind of dangerous . Narcissism has been tossed around quite liberally over the past 9 years - often with little to no understanding its actual mean . Even more psychopath - that has a very specific meaning - it is not nor should it be used because you don't like someone . Perfectly acceptable that you did not want kennedy parents - I would hope yours would have liked you to have a much greater discretion in using words / labels that you clearly know nothing about - it is not becoming.
Having listened to you reading about the Kennedys, mountbattens, Diana etc I came to the conclusion people back then (maybe rich people) didn't care about their kids very much.
Those people's hearts were too crowded to have room for anyone but themselves, but the rich often did turn their kids over to nannies and boarding schools. Now, why do normal people let their child spend the day with strangers at school, social media, and video games?
In the era it was quite common to smoke and drink while pregnant. I remember it wasn’t til my third pregnancy that doctors started pushing the no smoking or drinking while pregnant message and even then you were told “but a few won’t hurt”
That was not unusual in the 50s & 60s - you're judging a totally different age. Smoking was often used to calm people down had been during and since the War
I understand what people are saying but to me it makes sense that the Kennedys would fight to have John in the family plot. Theatrics re the scattering at sea imo. Why would Caroline’s mother, who’d been SO outspoken about the relationship & marriage not want her girls with her in Connecticut? Doesn’t pass the pub test as we say here 🇦🇺 - doesn’t make sense.
Can you look into reading a book on Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy? I want to learn why she was cold as ice. She treated Kick horribly. Also JFK being left alone in the hospital never being visited by his parents.
Growing up in Massachusetts,we loved the Kennedy’s. Jackie and JFK, were the closest to royalty then. I remember Jackie relating her dislike of campaigning. The Kennedy women ,were the opposite,they played with the guys on the front lawn and ate up campaigning. Jackie’s tastes were elegant,and her intellect and love of the arts was her conversation. Many times I’ve read,she didn’t have the love of it ,like those Kennedy girls ,they were tough,strong and fighters. It wasn’t Jackie’s thing. She did it reluctantly,later on when Jack said he needed her, it changed. I also remember the funeral at sea. They went out on a Coast Guard or Navy ship. Both families together,but it never seemed that they were consoling each other. Maybe the burials were private,each side putting to rest their loved ones. I know Carolyn ‘s mother was angry. I remember reading that. Now from this book,it makes more sense. She later sued the estate!
Given the times, her background, and her lack of financial resources, she really didn't have many options. The Kennedy family was trash, and not because they didn't bring fois gras to a picnic; the rot was deep and sickening.
This might be a spoiler but the author claims the Kennedy siblings did not know where Rosemary was until about 1969. I have a cousin who has resided at St. Coletta's since the 1940s. When Kennedy was running for President in 1960, our whole family knew Rosemary was there too. It was not a secret. (No, I am not related despite my last name.)
I commented on another thread pretty much the same things. Back in the 70’s growing up I was friends with a girl whose aunt was an RN and worked at St Colleta’s in some capacity. I don’t remember her last name which was different from my friend’s. From what I was told and the conversations I overheard, family members flew in often to see her.
Cheere, to answer your question, yes, the Mediterranean is and has been for a long time been known as "the Med". I'm not sure if I knew that as a child in the 1960's but certainly by the time my brother was deployed there in the USN a decade later. Hope that helps.
My uncle was in the Navy in the Mediterranean on cruises on Aircraft carriers. That was when I first heard of it called "The Med." It was the early 70's.
Except the chaplains, each scattering was another one specific to their family. The one with Caroline Kennedy describing how as the ashes entered the water, she reached out her hand for ‘one last touch’ to ‘hold his hand one last time.’ Then describing her falling into Uncle Teddy’s arms, not her husband’s. That was a moving descriptions in detail if all was a fable.
JFK was in extremely poor health throughout his life - he nearly died several times as a young boy . He became a speed reader , voracious reader because he was bedridden for long periods of time as a kid . It has now been well documented about having addison's disease - just that alone and the treatment for it - pretty much assured that he would die prematurely . What was not known was that it was going to be from lead poisoning
My family often used the term the Med as an affectionate abbreviation for the Mediterranean. Being only 2 hours away from London, we were fortunate to spend some of our summer holidays on the beautiful island of Mallorca back in the seventies and eighties. I think Club Med, the French travel company based in Paris was set up in the 1950s and may be this contributed to the abbreviation becoming popular in the following years.. A fun side note, if memory serves me well, doesn’t Thelma talk about working for Club Med in Mexico in the film Thelma and Louise? Great video as always Cheere!
When was smoking recognized as detrimental to a developing baby? Doctors used to tell women cigarettes were a great way to keep from gaining too much weight during pregnancy. Amphetamines were often prescribed for that reason. My impression was that it wasn't until the 1970s when there was a real attempt to educate the public on the dangers of cigarette smoking during pregnancy.
You're right. My mother smoked & was actually on physician-prescribed diet pills (what she called amber #5s?) during her pregnancy with me. Also ate mostly canned tuna. Heaven forfend she gained too much weight! This was 1967-68.
It is not a big deal to refer to the Mediterranean Sea as "The Med". Always "the Med". not just "Med". There were plenty of sailors post-WWII, who had served in The Med and I figure that where the term slipped into common use age. were There was even a "Club Med" and we all knew what it was, a resort that was evocative of the Rivera and was targeted towards youthful, monied, or wanna-bes, social climbers.
I truly enjoy your balanced and measured breakdown of the content of this book. I totally respect your questioning things that are contradictory and perhaps. It truly is an eye opener of what the times were like for women back in those days.
I think “The Med” referring to the Mediterranean Sea was a term used by the 1960s Jet Set. It was as they say, before your time. Enjoy your beautiful youth. I enjoy your reading and commentary.
I have been watching " A Women Named Jackie" on UA-cam. Jackie's mother was a real peice of work. Jackie witnesed her parents fighing on a daily sometimes hourly basis. Her mother was also a champion horsewomen and was extremely critical of Jackie's riding skills. It was almost like she was in competition with Jackie in riding and in life. Jackie loved her father and was a Daddy's girl. Her mother was hypercritical and jealous of her own daughter. This is a typical trait of a Narcissist mother. Jackie's father was never critical of Jackie and was always supportive of her goals and dreams. Her sister Lee seemed highly narcissistic too. Lee was one of Truman Capote's Swans. If she left Jack where would she go? Would you want to be around your toxic mother and sister? I suggest everyone watch "A Women Named Jackie," as a companion to this book.
Mirrors Carolyn and John-John not just in how they played the dating game, but how aspirational they were. They pursued these men to satisfy their own ambitions. Be careful what you wish for -you might just get it. The more benevolent depiction of Jackie, and presumably the other women, compared to how all of Carolyn's defects were laid out, is already evident. I think it's because these women were from other generation, so there's less first-hand accounts of their character, their legend already established.
During the Second World War, my mother was a nurse on a Tuberculosis ward. The doctor advised all the nurses to take up smoking to 'protect' them against the disease.
Thanks so much for another great video - back in the sixties as I recall - smoking while pregnant wasn’t taken as seriously as it is today. I had an aunt who puffed her way through five pregnancies and gave birth to five healthy, strong children - people were happy to just ignore the warnings. I’d say the family knew exactly why Jackie had so much trouble with her pregnancies but of course being Kennedys would always look for someone or something else to blame - they never, ever took responsibility for anything. I’m Catholic & I cringe at their hypocrisy & their ‘holier than thou’ attitude.
Re: The author’s apparently dismissive description of JFK’s childhood/background/family dynamic, it should be pointed out that this was really not that unusual for that era coming after two world wars. Whole families got blown apart, men came back from the war and never spoke of it again, to spare the feelings of those back home and for fear of reliving the nightmares in the telling. Survivors of that era were a tough, chin-down generation who just got on with life - feelings weren’t talked about, that was seen as soft and self-absorbed. Life was for living!
Jackie had admitted in an interview I read that she was highly suicidal for at least a year. She then sought hypnosis (and pharma) which helped her immensely. So she might retain the memories without the traumatic emotions, have them neutralized. It worked.
That description of Jackie’s experience of her husbands assassination is the most gruesome thing I think I’ve ever heard!🙀The true record of the circumstances of his death should be out in the public arena by now! More true conspiracy NOT THEORY.
Reading the comments, people need to think in terms of what life was like back then, not today. Plus, it’s hard to imagine the massive allure the Kennedys had over America and the world at that time. There wasn’t the massive information like we have today and more trust in the government.
Correct - not to mention that quite honestly - this book - which I am interested in listening to but it is nothing short of a pretty comprehensive hit job . I have to investigate who this woman is - the author and what her background is - because this is most certainly not an academic book - in the manner in which it is written and sourced honestly there is precious little information in this that has not been known - she is just placing a lens on the events - providing an explanation for how and why it happened - by inferring the worst conceivable possibility. In some cases that might be true or warranted - but certainly not in all cases and in many are just not really credible at all.
I don’t think smoking while pregnant was as taboo of a thing back then as it is now. My mother (who quit in the 90’s), smoked while pregnant with me and my sister in the 60s and 70s.
I've been there several times and never heard it called the Med. Thanks for your comment. All these years and I never realized that Club Med took its name from the Mediterranean.
If we could understand the history of the family. The grandfather was once the richest man in the world. He taught his children that rules were for others, not them. He was an absolute monster & grandmother wasn't much better.
You are absolutely right about Jackie's mental health after JFK was killed. I'd read previously that Jackie moved to Georgetown on the outskirts of DC after & began drinking quite heavily. It was said to be her most devastating experience. Thankfully,Jackie did eventually move on, but that 1st year must have been absolute hell
Yes. I read in another biography about Jackie that she did suffer from severe anxiety and PTSD .But marrying Onassis ? Sure, she got away, but he was also a monster and eventually treated her very badly-also still having an affair with Maria, who seemed more emotionally and culturally isync with him
They had a house in Georgetown before he was president - remember he had been a congressman / senator for 15 yrs or so prior to him being president . Georgetown is not on the outskirts - it is a neighborhood - of DC. it is on the banks of the potomac - and extends towards the embassies. It would be the equivalent of the Beverly hills of Washington.
I think the best researched biography of Jackie was David Hayman’s A Woman Named Jackie.” A lot of JFKs and Jackie’s old friends, relatives,classmates, very close acquaintances were interviewed Jackie’s life long friend and personal secretary, Leticia Baldrigde, read the book, but did not agree to be interviewed.
I am watching the miniseries on UA-cam now! I think everyone listening to this book should watch it. I think Jackie's mom was a Narcissist. She was hypercritical and never satisfied with her. I think both were jealous of Jackie's brains and beauty. Her sister too was a narcissist. Poor Jackie.
Cheere, I could have sworn I had already read this book but just as I thought, you are making it so much more interesting with your comments and side-notes. Loving all the eye rolls 👀
As a Catholic I am sure Jackie could have attained an Annulment from Jack for with holding his preexisting medical difficulties. Jack sending Bobby to the Hospital reminds me of John Jr. sending his cousin to his girlfriend.
Hey Cheere! Thank you for helping us figure out what the Kennedy curse was a potent, lethal mix of arrogance and stupidity!🤬
And drugs from Dr Feelgood!
Exactly. We are warned about adultery. Do we think it's not serious? Pure hubris on their behalf.
The Kennedy curse is named Joe Kennedy.
It all goes back to Joe Kennedy, a millionaire rum runner.
🗣 Honey, drop everything! Cheere has a new video! 🗣
That is what I just thought! Yay now we're on Jackie!
I have so much respect for Jackie when she refused to change her outfit. "Let them see what they did"
@GoggyL29 I agree. Jacqueline Kennedy really understood optics and what that image of her in that blood-stained dress would mean to the history of the Kennedy Presidency. It was not only shocking for the nation to see more evidence of the assassination, but it was such an iconic photograph and made people realize how close she had also come to being killed. The thought of her gathering her husband's scattered brain matter is truly heartbreaking.
She and most everyone in the Kennedy family believe LBJ and J Edgar Hoover were responsible for the death of JFK
@@GoggyL29 who was "they?"
@@GoggyL29 who was "they?"
@@marcopolo4576 That's what Jackie said
Caroline Kennedy disappointed me. Her lack of empathy for Ann, who just lost two daughters bc of her brother. Just awful.
I don’t believe what she writes about Caroline, after what her mother endured! A lot of crap…
@@athenaf8278 I find it hard to believe as well… that would make her a true monster…
Caroline is awful
If Jackie and Rose Kennedy had a baby it would be named Caroline.
But did her 2 daughters die? Did you see their bodies? Why would they even say they were cremated? They just cremated 3 humans without the families involved giving permission? Is it possible something else happened
As the 63 year old daughter of Irish Catholics who emigrated to the US in 1950, I fully understand what having a president who was a Catholic of Irish heritage meant to many people. His true character and the terrible way he treated his wife were largely hidden from the public. Also, we should be careful about applying modern standards to people living in a different era. My own mother, who was a nurse before her marriage, stayed in that unhappy relationship partly due to the stigma attached to annulment and divorce, as well as the struggle of raising 7 children almost alone. Even someone of Jacqueline Kennedy's class would have suffered opprobrium. As always, enjoying your review.
My life almost mirrors yours. My Irish immigrant parents watched the Kennedy presidency from England and told us 8 kids all about the Kennedys celebrity and greatness. They would have had no idea about the scandals , just being Irish was enough. If only they knew.
I'm 70, we were Catholic and at the time just being a Catholic was enough to adore him. I am glad neither of my parents or grandparents are alive to see what horrible people they were.
@kathleenwarner4046 Great comment...also, I usually learn something new every day, and today it was the word "opprobrium". Thanks for that!
Yes, and my mother was a Fitzgerald and we were doubly proud as we claimed to be related to Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy; not so proud of that anymore.
When Jackie married Onassis people lost their minds..it seems they expected her to nit have a life.
She married Onassis fir protection. When Robert Kennedy was assassinated, Jackie said , "they're killing Kennedys" & she left the United States
I'm I the only one who never thought that JFK was super handsome?
Never got it myself. I think his son was worth a second look, but John Sr.? Nah
I thought he was downright UNattractive.
I can’t say that to my super-Catholic mom. How I wish she would read this book!!!!
@@cheeredeniseI cannot stand the entire crooked clan-but it makes my heart hurt to think of the way John John’s beautiful body ended up 😿😿
Not stop the world handsome. The press brainwashed the women of the world at the time.
You’re not alone; I found him rather _un_attractive. All it took for the media to swoon was youth, big hair, a tan and a toothy grin.
I swear I read, Jackie’s father in law offered her a million dollars to not leave John, he didn’t want it to affect his run for president.
We’ll cover that!
@@cheeredenise oooh can’t wait!! Love the channel, new subscriber here!
Yes that’s what I had heard too.
@@Dontneedahandle0You found one GREAT channel 😊!
@@cheeredenise..I've read that Jackie's father who she adored was a womanizer and told Jack that to keep her a horse and she'd be happy.
Good grief that poor woman went through a lot. She must have suffered from PTSD after the assassination alone. Never mind the treatment she endured prior to that. I'm amazed she was able to move forward with as much dignity as she appeared to, on the surface at least.
Back then, stillbirths were never mentioned. The parents were expected to carry on as though nothing happened.
After my first miscarriage many years ago, my elderly aunt told me about when her son was stillborn in the late 50s. He was taken from her before she could see or hold him. A nurse felt sorry for her and risked her job to bring her baby back to her during the night so she could say goodbye to him. She was then sent home a couple of days later and she never spoke of it again. She was in 70s when she told me this.
Women are so blinded by the "Kennedy" name. The only one that has a clear head was Anne, Caroline's mom, unfortunately her advice was not heeded.
If I recall correctly the Kennedys Jack and Jackie were receiving shots for energy…..which was possibly amphetamines bc it was in vogue then….I know this bc my mom was on them. Dr gave them to her for weight loss. Back in the 50’s u could refill a script ongoing they had no expiration
I agree.
It's "Carolyn's mom" (Carolyn Bessette), not Caroline. Caroline is JFK Jr's sister (Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg).
Sure Jan
@@Sandi-zh2wx🙄
In that era, doctors encouraged pregnant patients to smoke to keep their weight down, so their babies would be smaller for an easier delivery.
My mother in the 50s and 60s smoked heavily throughout 6 pregnancies and delivered 6 healthy fat babies - all still above ground
Wow😮😮😮😮
JFK Jr. was born a year and a half before me. My mother's OB/GYN convinced her to stop smoking when she was pregnant with me. This is part of the lore of my birth is the only reason I know. Maybe some doctors weren't anti-smoking then, but at least one was.
Horrific..also even in the 1960s and 70s champagne was the go to for morning sickness!!!
It's difficult for younger people today to understand what smoking culture was like in the 50s and 60s. Patients and visitors were allowed to smoke IN the hospital. The connection between tobacco and disease was barely known, let alone understood. It was extremely common for women to smoke (and drink) throughout their pregnancies and doctors generally didn't discourage it like they do today.
I really like the way you are putting everything about each woman together, instead of it being willy nilly...makes much more sense...thank you❤...
I actually got teared up when she cradled his foot and kissed it. No matter what one thinks of the Kennedys, on a human level, so tragic....
SOOO TRAGIC!!!
The Kennedys were scumbags as far as I'm concerned but wow that description of JFK's assassination was horrific, really sad. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
@@cheeredeniseit seemed that in those last moments of his life all his affairs-misgivings and stds AND his disregard to Jackie were forgotten and forgiven? she still cried when he died! Fascinating
I found Jackie After Jack
Christopher Anderson for 1.49 the old book 1998 The first chapter is very toxic my goodness I think that one moment she just went completely numb . Then the PSTD came and just never left .
I understand what you’re saying about the smoking, but as someone who’d been addicted to cigarettes it was an extremely difficult addiction to overcome. It was only through God’s grace I overcame it and I had nicotine patches available. The knowledge of nicotine’s damage was not as known or accepted in that era. It was still widely accepted with commercials on TV, magazines and even newspapers pushing it. As with all history we have a tendency to judge in our time with the benefit of gained knowledge choices made by people past times.
You can't judge the behavior of people from the past, with the standards of today.
Yayyyy. Am unwell in bed and is just what was needed. This book blew my mind. Like the mountbattens, why do these ppl seem incapable of fidelity and respect!
Unfortunately, it appears to be a way of life for many elites. There are no parameters.
Get well soon!
Back then, smoking while pregnant was not regarded as a big deal. Neither, btw, was drinking. Not one woman I know (including myself) was advised to quit smoking. In fact, most OB-Gynecologists had an ashtray on their desk. Not promoting smoking while pregnant, just trying to set the record straight. I did smoke, and did have four healthy babies. The Kennedy wives were extremely judgmental.
Believe it or not, I remember seeing nurses smoke on the pediatric cardiology floor when I had heart surgery as a kid in the 70s!
@@CornbreadOraclesame here ! I remember them smelling like cigarettes and several times I’d heard one tell another “I’m gonna grab a smoke “
@@CornbreadOraclepeople smoked everywhere! No restrictions. And people included doctors, patients, nurses - everyone! It was a much different world then.
I agree with the statement, I remember both my OB-GYN's smoked. It certainly wasn't a big deal to smoke. In fact, my OB-GYN prescribed me diet pills during my pregnancy in 1969!! So much we didn't know at the time. So I would be surprised that the Kennedy people were critical of smoking.
My doctor smoked through appointments. It was normal
Let me suffer a miscarriage and my husband go on vacation instead of coming to my bedside. He ain’t never seeing my face again!
But see, that's the problem. He wouldn't care if he never saw your face again, all the better. They move on to the next source of "fuel"
There's never an attachment to the person they used and abused, their fuel source. They only a source to make them look good, achieve their purpose. It's the other person who had the feelings.
@@carebear381 wouldn’t be a problem for me because I’d be gone
@@CornbreadOracleWhere are you going? That’s usually the problem. Better have a plan.
Are you some kind of narcissist?
I just want to add, my Grandmother told me, everyone smoked back in those days. Unfortunately, even when the women were pregnant, they smoked like chimneys. The dangers of it were not as well known back then. I'm going to give Jackie a pass for this.
Yes. The idea was it strengthened your lungs and it also curbed appetite…people didn’t snack and graze all day in that time, either.
True
My mother smoked all the way through her 4 pregnancies and drank. She told me in the nursing home she stayed in after the births that the nurses came and took the babies so the mothers could have a cigarette break.
I totally agree. We cant't use todays knowledge to judge the past.
Yes indeed everyone smoked in those days, I remember being stuck in cars with adults in the 60s where more than one person was smoking and feeling sick. There was no taboo, that started in the 80s but slowly . Same with alcohol women smoked and drank in pregnancy up until quite recently.
I love hearing my lil ring bell announcement and it’s your face CheereD! Loving this series. Thank you.
Regarding chlymidia, and Jack & Marilyn, I wonder if that is why Marilyn had miscarried her babies.
Possibly. Pregnancy is a delicate thing, soooo many seemingly small things can affect it by themselves, and they compound. My first stop with mult miscarriages is rh- blood.
It really makes you wonder if the ashes being scattered at sea was all for show so no one would look for their graves. Especially John's. That would be of great concern to the Kennedys.
Agreed. This was clearly a show since no other Kennedy was ever buried at sea, for any reason. And no other Kennedy was ever cremated. Pure theatrics imo.
Yes, that’s interesting. This needs to be clarified by the author as Cheere stated. Were they buried or their remains cremated and scattered at sea.
Idk...I believe the remains were indeed cremated. None of their bodies were inact when found. Why this author fails to explain the "burial at sea" is just strange. I do recall at the time reports coming out that Carolyns mother in particular was not at all happy & blamed John's recklessness.. which is essentially what happened here...JFK Jr was not qualified to fly alone that night
@@clairelivefreeordie2551Catholics don’t cremate.
@@nanabuster7285uhh yes we do
Of all the books you've read, this is the one I'm enjoying the most.
PS. Your hair is gorgeous.
Re: baby Arabella and the stillbirth, my mom gave birth to my brother in December, 1964. She had smoked through all prior pregnancies but was only informed with this pregnancy that it was unhealthy for the baby and she promptly quit. When I Googled Arabella, she was born in 1956 so it's possible that Jackie was unaware of the effects of smoking on a fetus. I mean, there's always common sense, but apparently, people didn't realize it at the time. My mom told me once that she was horrified when she discovered the fact and quit cold turkey for good. As an aside, Jack Kennedy was a real piece of work! Then again, look how he was raised.
Women were still smoking & drinking alcohol while pregnant in the 1970’s.
I was Director of a chemical dependency clinic starting in 1988 & while addressing staying sober we also educated women about their smoking while pregnant. Tough issue, they wouldn’t give up cigarettes if they were trying to stop drinking.
So glad women are better educated these days.
This is so fascinating, l was a 14 year old British girl when JFK was assassinated.l knew that they had lost their son Patrick and remember the funeral with John saluting his father’s coffin. As an adult l have seen programmes about the Kennedy’s. The perspective from which this is written makes it compelling listening and l love your delivery style. Only those who frequently frequent the Mediterranean call it The Med. A modern day version of it is those who visit the Spanish city of Marbella frequently call it Marbs 🙄🤷♀️ denoting in their eyes that that they are so familiar with it and that they are not ordinary tourists. It is an affectation which is supposed to impress but merely causes us to roll our eyes 🙄
Sad to say, the Kennedy family, imo, were master conspiracists. Start with Rosemary, and her fate, then move forward all the way to RFK, Jr. There were no ethics, no principles, and no moral compass. I’m old enough to remember most of this only too well. Consequently, I am so over the Kennedy family. And yes, I did read the book.
I am also old enough to remember these things. I agree with you -- I've been over this family for a *long* time. The hero worship associated with them is so misplaced and unfounded. The truth is important in terms of historical figures.
Joe Kennedy had to resign in disgrace from his post as the American Ambassador in Britain because of his views.
Do not forget that old man Joe Kennedy was a rum runner (breaking the law) during prohibition. Rum running is how old Joe got rich, just like the gangsters! A lot of PR $ to give old Joe a hidden past & make-over. Old Joe was in bed with the mob, the corrupt politicians & union bosses. So old Joe made sure his boys married into America’s high society & like Jackie her family had pedigree but no $.
I've read the book too. It's generations of creeps, rapists, murderers, liars, and more. Disgusting and even more disgusting how so many of them, blood and married, created grandiose stories of their greatness.
Joe Kennedy had Rosemary given a lobotomy, Rose found out & was livid.
Rosemary was the most beautiful of all the Kennedys, but prone to outbursts & Joe was embarrassed by her lack of perfection.
Kit Kennedy was the favorite girl, but Rose turned her back on her when she married again.
When interviewed for a book, old men in England got teary when recalling her.
I was still seven years old, in the second grade in a new town. The phone on the classroom wall rang. The teacher answered it, her face fell, and she silently left the room. Thirty of us waited quietly, it seemed strange. When she came back she was pushing a TV in on a cart. After hooking it up, still silent, she turned it on. We watched as whatever channel gave the news that the President had been assassinated. I learned the word "assassinated" at that time. Then school let out early. I walked the mile home to a house that would still be empty for several hours.
That was a extremely well told story!!! Your writing is very impressive very sad
@@sopol6111 Thank you.❤ What a sad time it was. Although by now we've probably all seen worse tragedies, I never saw so many adults crying. It sure did leave an impression.
Nowadays, some parents would sue the school district. I was seven when MLK and RFK were killed and don't remember the response, but we were living in South Carolina.
Once again, this is why cheating is not just a terrible betrayal of the heart, but also putting someone’s longterm HEALTH at risk! This poor woman suffered pregnancy losses and it was all her husband’s fault 😑
As a grown woman who knew her husband was a philanderer, she had a responsibility to get tested for herself- but also for any babies too. Its pretty easy to not get victimized in that situation but she just declined and bloodwork or physicals while pregnant or trying? Come on.
it was a whole different world then....😢
@laurasalo6160 Get tested? One didn't just pop into the local Planned Parenthood to get tested back then. Her doctor would have advised her to be a better wife so her husband didn't stray, it would have leaked to the press, and she would have been blamed for everything.
@@509cougs one couldnt just pop into their doctors office? 🙄
@@laurasalo6160 The shame she would have endured as her doctor advised her to be a better wife would be enough of deterrent. But it would have been very risky too. All it would take was one person in that office to tell their spouse or bestie, "Can you believe that Mrs. KENNEDY came into the office today to get tested for gonorrhea? I would have never thought she was the type of woman to sleep around. And to accuse the Senator of disloyalty to hide her own behavior..." It would have ruined the lot of them.
Sadly, I can imagine a Mother slapping her daughter in the face, continuing into her 20’s. The last time my Mother slapped me in the face I was 29 years old and had just had surgery for endometriosis without telling her. I did not want her to come to town and make it all about herself. She found out from an Aunt who was not supposed to tell. She immediately drove 10 hours just to make it all about herself and what a bad child I was to have her Mother (my Grandmother) sneak me to a surgery behind her back, that was HER Mom. She was my Mom and it was her right to be there during my surgery. I took my children and left my own house while I was in incredible pain because she refused to leave when I asked her to go because I would not be beaten under my own roof.
I never saw her alive again. She died of after effects from a house fire less than 6 months later.
You would not believe the bad things that I can simply set to the side for later.
Obviously, your mother was quite ill. It’s unfortunate for both of you (especially you, the child of this woman) that it went unrecognized, and she didn’t get serious treatment.
There’s no treatment for Narcissism
Your story Boudi,made me cry. Mothers are supposed to care, love and nurture us. You mentioned your children,I hope there’re
a respite from your pain. I also wanted a mother ,who would give blessed memories,but It wasn’t to be. Please ,feel my arms around
you ,giving you a hug. I would venture you’ve surpassed your hurt and sorrow and enjoy your children and are loved and respected. ❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️❣️
I'm proud of you, my mom is like that too
MyGod what a sad story!
This past Sunday I was walking in Tribeca and I walked past John Jr and Carolyn’s apartment on 20 North Moore St. Seeing that building made me think of what I read with this book and your book review so far with John and Carolyn.
I don't think you take into account how things were back there. Catholics didn't divorce, you just got on with it. And i don't think it was known back in the 60's that cigarettes could damage babies.
@@maggiekent7753 Catholics can’t divorce now.
Sadly, we've had several tragic deaths in our immediate family. I can tell you that that kind of grief (intense and deeply traumatic) changes you forever. Not just emotionally, but biologically as well.
I always thought of grief as an emotional event. But trauma changes the brain's biology. It changes your persona. That's why I'm not surprised that Jackie became a different person.
I was never a huge Jackie fan but listening to you read the account of what she endured when her husband was killed.. brought me to tears. Like you, I have read the history books but never thought how that horrific time must have been in her mind for the rest of her life.
Yes! That is why she married Onassis. He had the money to protect her and keep her safe and in seclusion, especially on Skorpios his private, secure and isolated Greek Island.
Bringing children into middle and upper class American families was very different back then. Pregnancy was looked upon as an embarrassing condition that needed to be hidden and disguised. "Baby bumps" were hidden under large volumes of clothing. They were generally not talked about, and if fathers wanted to be in the hospital when their babies "arrived", they were kept well away from the delivery rooms. I'm just saying it was a bit different than it is now, fathers were not generally allowed to be so involved in the process.
@@silva7493 Pushing back just a little. Pregnancy was not an embarrassing condition to be in for a married lady. It was, however, not flaunted nor spoken about in mixed company or with strangers.
Opinion. If the only two choices were the maternity clothing worn in the late 50's early 60's and what passes for maternity fashion in the 2020's, I'll take the more modest clothing. Thankyouverymuch.
And we certainly didn't pose naked with our huge bellies in profile while thinking we looked beautiful. Lol.@@jlennon1779
@@jlennon1779 You aren't pushing back. I'm in complete agreement. I was just trying to offer an explanation for why back then, fathers often didn't start to bond until they were presented with a live baby. I too much prefer wearing and seeing looser clothing.
@@jlennon1779Yes, pregnancy was not ‘hidden’ nor something to be ashamed of when married. The full top look was a fashion.
@@jlennon1779 correct - not hidden nor embarrassing - there would unlikely be many of us around if that were the case . But certainly - it was a" condition " that was accepted but seldom spoke about - certainly in mixed company . I would say 99% of it was on the woman . If a husband was available to lend assistance to his wife - it was a luxury more than an accepted custom - "she got a good one" . Some of the enjoyment of this book is to listen to the descriptions and reactions of people of how these events are portrayed and it is interesting to observe how much society has changed - for i am old enough to remember what it was like and some of these things that are being met with gasps / groans were quite accepted during that time - it is especially true within catholic families - which i was from . That is another thing i have noticed . There are a lot of things in this book - that taken into context - in particular an extremely wealthy catholic family - that are not at all shocking. Again - I am from one - so a lot things i am hearing are - yeah so .
Back then, smoking wasn’t considered to be a problem while pregnant.
Jackie’s Morher divorced her father and remarried a very wealthy man Auchinscloss
My aunt was pregnant about the same time as Jackie. My aunt was skinny, she'd stand with a cup of coffee in one hand and a cigarette in the other. Nothing was said about smoking when pregnant.
People today have no idea the impact this woman had on the world. In my school homeroom alone, there were 4 girls named Jacqueline - each of whom were named after the young, vibrant, classy, beautiful First Lady.
Had my brother (born in Jan 1962) been a girl, my mom was going to name her Caroline, having great admiration for the First Lady. We lived with my grandmother, who had an 8x10 picture of JFK on the wall of the living room. I was only 4 when he was assassinated, and really didn’t understand what had happened, only that the special news coverage was preempting my Flintstones’ cartoons. But I have a vivid memory of the drum cadence and the funeral procession, with my head on my grandma’s lap as she sobbed.
@@suenonemaker6470So true! I was born in 1962, Irish Catholic. It was common to see photos of JFK in a home. We were sold a bill of goods with Camelot.
I remember people being absolutely glued to the broadcast covering Jackie’s redoing the White House decor… discussing China patterns, wallpaper and such; and people were rapt with attention.
As a child in the Irish countryside of the early 1990s, many homes still had a painting or photograph of JFK alongside the Pope and Jesus, Mary and their sacred hearts. It was seen as a huge deal in Ireland to have an "Irish American" Catholic become a US president, even decades later.
@smartmarketing173 Jackie was the first to actually improve and beautify the White house..getting historians advice and making it a great place to welcome digitaries!
I’m from a Boston Irish catholic family, while you know you’re loved, it’s a cold love.
That’s a powerful statement. 🍀💞
Jackie married her father for fame and wealth. John jr then married his mother.
BTW Grace Kelly was known for her many "romantic", if short, relationships before she also traded real love for a royal title. More than one biography documents this.
I think Grace slept with more leading men than any other actress.
That's a good analogy. Black Jack was a womanizer like her father with charisma and charm. Caroline looked like Jackie,only blonde; and she was stylish,tall and domineering.
@@dalehoward3704 You are all spot on - in your comparisons - and BTW this is not exactly unique behavior - it happens all the time - rich or poor .
My mom would always say, "Poor Mrs. Kennedy. " My parents didn't vote for Kennedy because they knew about his womanizing. Even here in the Midwest, people knew about his sexual activities. My grandma's neighbor son worked in DC. So they would get the latest gossip from there. I actually got tired of hearing about poor Mrs. Kennedy. I told my mom she knew what she was getting herself into. She wanted the power of Kennedys, and Jack wanted a wife who was culture for a first lady.
If you marry for money, you pay for it……
I think I’ve read that comment on every video she’s posted …lol
Jack's father was also a womanizer.
My friends mum used to smoke while breastfeeding her in the 70s. My friend is ridiculously healthy.
They are quite lucky then. My SIL smoked during the 60’s with all three children, all three had holes in their hearts and would be smaller than ‘normal’ They’d continue with heart problems and limitations because of it.
@@judywright4241 my God, that's awful.
Lol my mom had cigarettes when she was in labor with us children they allowed this type of behavior
I don't think this book had room to adequately discuss Rose and Joe Kennedy. That's a whole other book. I don't think an honest biography exists about Rose and Joe.
Thanks Cheere it was excellent. I grew up during the time of Camelot as it was named. Words can’t describe how people in the Irish Catholic community and overall were so entranced with this family. I think in a way you would have had to live it to understand it.
Remember, in those days, many doctors encouraged smoking as a way to relax. What we know now wasn't yet known.
@darkprincesssmelly: The cigarette companies knew. They had been doing research on cigarettes for years and continued doing so for even more years. And they lied. They lied to the public full of pregnant women, coughing men, people who were already dying but didn't know it, and the courts. Sounds just like the pharmaceutical companies of today. They were all lying out of greed. The powerful never change.
I’m so glad that I discovered you!!
“He wasn’t alone, but she was.”
Hi Cheere! I'm so glad to hear another episode. I remember watching the Kennedy and Bessette families on the boat for the burial at sea after their bodies were all discovered. It was so sad. ❤😢
Many, many, many women smoked back in the day...my mom did...thankfully she didn't take thalidomide for nausea with my sister or I...women also drank...
My mother was prescribed Thalidomide but refused to take it. From then on she never trusted pharma.
My mother's ob/gyn recommended that she drink a bottle of Guinness ale daily.
The Kennedy's 'faith' was a religious facade that had no impact on their personal lives. It never would have occurred to them that the Bible had anything to do with the way they live. 2 Tim 3 vs 5 I am THOROUGHLY enjoying this, Cheerie. It is deeply disturbing, even if it was accepted that men have affairs during that era among the rich and/or aristocratic . It's the utter disregard of the women and the high levels of Narcissism that make me cringe. No introspection of JFK either personal or within his family. I've read other books and the depiction of Joe and Rose Kennedy and their children is truly a horror story. I'd love to read a book that deep dives into these Narcissistic psychopaths. Glad they weren't my parents!!!!
you really throw words around loosely - without really understanding what they mean - and that is not only a demonstration of true ignorance it is kind of dangerous . Narcissism has been tossed around quite liberally over the past 9 years - often with little to no understanding its actual mean . Even more psychopath - that has a very specific meaning - it is not nor should it be used because you don't like someone . Perfectly acceptable that you did not want kennedy parents - I would hope yours would have liked you to have a much greater discretion in using words / labels that you clearly know nothing about - it is not becoming.
Having listened to you reading about the Kennedys, mountbattens, Diana etc I came to the conclusion people back then (maybe rich people) didn't care about their kids very much.
Those people's hearts were too crowded to have room for anyone but themselves, but the rich often did turn their kids over to nannies and boarding schools. Now, why do normal people let their child spend the day with strangers at school, social media, and video games?
What’s changed?
And the late Princess of Wales reckons her marriage was terrible... Lucky she wasn't married to President Kennedy!
In the era it was quite common to smoke and drink while pregnant. I remember it wasn’t til my third pregnancy that doctors started pushing the no smoking or drinking while pregnant message and even then you were told “but a few won’t hurt”
She smoked THREE PACKS PER DAY. That is 60 cigarettes!!!
That was not unusual in the 50s & 60s - you're judging a totally different age. Smoking was often used to calm people down had been during and since the War
Well done on the Maths. Amazing how everyone is so outraged about this. It was common back then.
Did you miss what was said that her husband transferred sexually transmitted diseases to Jackie? STDs can cause miscarriages.
I heard in order for Jackie not to divorce Jack his father gave her a million dollars???
She asked for a million dollars but was turned down however was given a hundred thousand dollars not to divorce him.
I understand what people are saying but to me it makes sense that the Kennedys would fight to have John in the family plot.
Theatrics re the scattering at sea imo.
Why would Caroline’s mother, who’d been SO outspoken about the relationship & marriage not want her girls with her in Connecticut?
Doesn’t pass the pub test as we say here 🇦🇺 - doesn’t make sense.
Can you look into reading a book on Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy? I want to learn why she was cold as ice. She treated Kick horribly. Also JFK being left alone in the hospital never being visited by his parents.
Her biography will make your hair stand on end! It's out of print but used copies are to be found!
Growing up in Massachusetts,we loved the Kennedy’s. Jackie and JFK, were the closest to royalty then. I remember Jackie relating
her dislike of campaigning. The Kennedy women ,were the opposite,they played with the guys on the front lawn and ate up campaigning. Jackie’s tastes were elegant,and her intellect and love of the arts was her conversation. Many times I’ve read,she didn’t have the love of it ,like those Kennedy girls ,they were tough,strong and fighters. It wasn’t Jackie’s thing. She did it reluctantly,later on when Jack said he needed her, it changed. I also remember the funeral at sea. They went out on a Coast Guard or Navy ship. Both families together,but it never seemed that they were consoling each other. Maybe the burials were private,each side putting to rest their loved ones. I know Carolyn ‘s mother was angry. I remember reading that. Now from this book,it makes more sense. She later sued the estate!
Given the times, her background, and her lack of financial resources, she really didn't have many options. The Kennedy family was trash, and not because they didn't bring fois gras to a picnic; the rot was deep and sickening.
This might be a spoiler but the author claims the Kennedy siblings did not know where Rosemary was until about 1969. I have a cousin who has resided at St. Coletta's since the 1940s. When Kennedy was running for President in 1960, our whole family knew Rosemary was there too. It was not a secret. (No, I am not related despite my last name.)
Rosemary inspired her sister Eunice to start the special olympics in the 1960s.
I commented on another thread pretty much the same things. Back in the 70’s growing up I was friends with a girl whose aunt was an RN and worked at St Colleta’s in some capacity. I don’t remember her last name which was different from my friend’s. From what I was told and the conversations I overheard, family members flew in often to see her.
I think they started interacting with her after Joe's death, which was in ''69.
If Jackie “decided to climb in the casket with JFK then it would have been on brand.” 💯💯💯
Cheere, to answer your question, yes, the Mediterranean is and has been for a long time been known as "the Med". I'm not sure if I knew that as a child in the 1960's but certainly by the time my brother was deployed there in the USN a decade later. Hope that helps.
My uncle was in the Navy in the Mediterranean on cruises on Aircraft carriers. That was when I first heard of it called "The Med." It was the early 70's.
Always called the Med cruise by the US Navy
I've got to go on my dog walk, I've caught up with house chores, it's my day off and now Cheere! Happy days ❤❤
A lot of families that cremate their loved ones keep some of the ashes (to remain in urn or buried in urn) and scatter the rest in a symbolic setting.
Except the chaplains, each scattering was another one specific to their family. The one with Caroline Kennedy describing how as the ashes entered the water, she reached out her hand for ‘one last touch’ to ‘hold his hand one last time.’ Then describing her falling into Uncle Teddy’s arms, not her husband’s.
That was a moving descriptions in detail if all was a fable.
My lord, this book is wild, what we did not know! I will take my simple life any day!
It’s interesting to think that JFK was really on borrowed time when he was killed.
JFK was in extremely poor health throughout his life - he nearly died several times as a young boy . He became a speed reader , voracious reader because he was bedridden for long periods of time as a kid . It has now been well documented about having addison's disease - just that alone and the treatment for it - pretty much assured that he would die prematurely . What was not known was that it was going to be from lead poisoning
My family often used the term the Med as an affectionate abbreviation for the Mediterranean. Being only 2 hours away from London, we were fortunate to spend some of our summer holidays on the beautiful island of Mallorca back in the seventies and eighties.
I think Club Med, the French travel company based in Paris was set up in the 1950s and may be this contributed to the abbreviation becoming popular in the following years..
A fun side note, if memory serves me well, doesn’t Thelma talk about working for Club Med in Mexico in the film Thelma and Louise?
Great video as always Cheere!
At least the "Med" isn't as bad as the "yak." 😂😂
Some people do call the Mediterranean the "Med". I don't, though.
When was smoking recognized as detrimental to a developing baby? Doctors used to tell women cigarettes were a great way to keep from gaining too much weight during pregnancy. Amphetamines were often prescribed for that reason. My impression was that it wasn't until the 1970s when there was a real attempt to educate the public on the dangers of cigarette smoking during pregnancy.
You're right. My mother smoked & was actually on physician-prescribed diet pills (what she called amber #5s?) during her pregnancy with me. Also ate mostly canned tuna. Heaven forfend she gained too much weight! This was 1967-68.
It is not a big deal to refer to the Mediterranean Sea as "The Med". Always "the Med". not just "Med". There were plenty of sailors post-WWII, who had served in The Med and I figure that where the term slipped into common use age. were There was even a "Club Med" and we all knew what it was, a resort that was evocative of the Rivera and was targeted towards youthful, monied, or wanna-bes, social climbers.
Back in the 50’s/60’s we all grew up referring to it as the Med.
i live in the UK and we all generally refer to it as the Med.
Generational dysfunction. So sad.
Kikck Kennedy had a tragic story...geesh. Their mother was a horrorshow.
The way you said "big pig" made me laugh out loud.You were so obviously sincere in your disgust.
I truly enjoy your balanced and measured breakdown of the content of this book. I totally respect your questioning things that are contradictory and perhaps. It truly is an eye opener of what the times were like for women back in those days.
I think “The Med” referring to the Mediterranean Sea was a term used by the 1960s Jet Set. It was as they say, before your time. Enjoy your beautiful youth. I enjoy your reading and commentary.
All the bad men sit in the front of church
I have been watching " A Women Named Jackie" on UA-cam. Jackie's mother was a real peice of work. Jackie witnesed her parents fighing on a daily sometimes hourly basis. Her mother was also a champion horsewomen and was extremely critical of Jackie's riding skills. It was almost like she was in competition with Jackie in riding and in life. Jackie loved her father and was a Daddy's girl. Her mother was hypercritical and jealous of her own daughter. This is a typical trait of a Narcissist mother. Jackie's father was never critical of Jackie and was always supportive of her goals and dreams. Her sister Lee seemed highly narcissistic too. Lee was one of Truman Capote's Swans. If she left Jack where would she go? Would you want to be around your toxic mother and sister? I suggest everyone watch "A Women Named Jackie," as a companion to this book.
I also read a biography about the Bouvier sisters. Janet AND Lee were horrible, nasty people.
It's woman, not women. For one female, you use woman. Plural is women. ; )
Mirrors Carolyn and John-John not just in how they played the dating game, but how aspirational they were. They pursued these men to satisfy their own ambitions.
Be careful what you wish for -you might just get it.
The more benevolent depiction of Jackie, and presumably the other women, compared to how all of Carolyn's defects were laid out, is already evident. I think it's because these women were from other generation, so there's less first-hand accounts of their character, their legend already established.
During the Second World War, my mother was a nurse on a Tuberculosis ward. The doctor advised all the nurses to take up smoking to 'protect' them against the disease.
Thanks so much for another great video - back in the sixties as I recall - smoking while pregnant wasn’t taken as seriously as it is today. I had an aunt who puffed her way through five pregnancies and gave birth to five healthy, strong children - people were happy to just ignore the warnings. I’d say the family knew exactly why Jackie had so much trouble with her pregnancies but of course being Kennedys would always look for someone or something else to blame - they never, ever took responsibility for anything. I’m Catholic & I cringe at their hypocrisy & their ‘holier than thou’ attitude.
Re: The author’s apparently dismissive description of JFK’s childhood/background/family dynamic, it should be pointed out that this was really not that unusual for that era coming after two world wars. Whole families got blown apart, men came back from the war and never spoke of it again, to spare the feelings of those back home and for fear of reliving the nightmares in the telling. Survivors of that era were a tough, chin-down generation who just got on with life - feelings weren’t talked about, that was seen as soft and self-absorbed. Life was for living!
Jackie had admitted in an interview I read that she was highly suicidal for at least a year. She then sought hypnosis (and pharma) which helped her immensely. So she might retain the memories without the traumatic emotions, have them neutralized. It worked.
That description of Jackie’s experience of her husbands assassination is the most gruesome thing I think I’ve ever heard!🙀The true record of the circumstances of his death should be out in the public arena by now! More true conspiracy NOT THEORY.
Reading the comments, people need to think in terms of what life was like back then, not today. Plus, it’s hard to imagine the massive allure the Kennedys had over America and the world at that time. There wasn’t the massive information like we have today and more trust in the government.
Correct - not to mention that quite honestly - this book - which I am interested in listening to but it is nothing short of a pretty comprehensive hit job . I have to investigate who this woman is - the author and what her background is - because this is most certainly not an academic book - in the manner in which it is written and sourced honestly there is precious little information in this that has not been known - she is just placing a lens on the events - providing an explanation for how and why it happened - by inferring the worst conceivable possibility. In some cases that might be true or warranted - but certainly not in all cases and in many are just not really credible at all.
I am addicted to your channel! Currently following this book and the scandalous Traitor King! Such fun entertainment ❤
I have been w/Cheere from her 1st read/review & was transported & hooked. I luv her long reviews (hour +).
I don’t think smoking while pregnant was as taboo of a thing back then as it is now. My mother (who quit in the 90’s), smoked while pregnant with me and my sister in the 60s and 70s.
Quite common in Europe to call it the Med. started from the very famous 60s and 70s holiday resorts called Club Med
I've been there several times and never heard it called the Med. Thanks for your comment. All these years and I never realized that Club Med took its name from the Mediterranean.
Who remembers ashtrays in the arms on airplanes? Who remembers Doctors smoking in their offices? No one was aware it caused lung cancer.
Cheese, hon..your observations are SPOT ON!!!! I ❤ your commentary...
If we could understand the history of the family. The grandfather was once the richest man in the world. He taught his children that rules were for others, not them. He was an absolute monster & grandmother wasn't much better.
You are absolutely right about Jackie's mental health after JFK was killed. I'd read previously that Jackie moved to Georgetown on the outskirts of DC after & began drinking quite heavily. It was said to be her most devastating experience. Thankfully,Jackie did eventually move on, but that 1st year must have been absolute hell
Yes. I read in another biography about Jackie that she did suffer from severe anxiety and PTSD .But marrying Onassis ? Sure, she got away, but he was also a monster and eventually treated her very badly-also still having an affair with Maria, who seemed more emotionally and culturally isync with him
@@maryanncarine2075 but he provided her safety & security
They had a house in Georgetown before he was president - remember he had been a congressman / senator for 15 yrs or so prior to him being president . Georgetown is not on the outskirts - it is a neighborhood - of DC. it is on the banks of the potomac - and extends towards the embassies. It would be the equivalent of the Beverly hills of Washington.
Where I'm from calling it the med is pretty normal, I believe the author is also British : )
Lol😂 love the whispering when talking about "the Med"😂
As soon as i heard "Daily Mail" I picked up a ton of salt...
She’s a gossip writer I don’t believe most of what she writes.
I think the best researched biography of Jackie was David Hayman’s A Woman Named Jackie.” A lot of JFKs and Jackie’s old friends, relatives,classmates, very close acquaintances were interviewed Jackie’s life long friend and personal secretary, Leticia Baldrigde, read the book, but did not agree to be interviewed.
I am watching the miniseries on UA-cam now! I think everyone listening to this book should watch it. I think Jackie's mom was a Narcissist. She was hypercritical and never satisfied with her. I think both were jealous of Jackie's brains and beauty. Her sister too was a narcissist. Poor Jackie.
You have made my work commutes so much better! Love your take on this book. Such a great change from the Royal family.
Cheere, I could have sworn I had already read this book but just as I thought, you are making it so much more interesting with your comments and side-notes. Loving all the eye rolls 👀
Hey from NZ; late to the party as usual. Have said it before, will say it again; NOBODY does an eyeroll better than 'our' Cheere. xo
As a Catholic I am sure Jackie could have attained an Annulment from Jack for with holding his preexisting medical difficulties. Jack sending Bobby to the Hospital reminds me of John Jr. sending his cousin to his girlfriend.