Trying to answer a common question already popping up in the comments: NO, I have never said "don't use saturation or clippers on your 2bus" Just be aware of this, so it's easier to hear if you're overdoing and overcooking things with saturation, because certain types of (bad) distortion it's hard to hear if you don't have trained ears AND most importantly, a good monitoring system. That's it. Thank you all! BUY THE COURSES AT www.mixbustv.com/ CHECK THIS OUT ➡➡ shorturl.at/anrW7 USE THE SUPER THANKS IF YOU LIKED THIS VIDEO! 👆👆👆
You can understand as more complex sound more distortion and unwanted noise which can be hard to handle. Sine wave is great example because of easy way to see a representation of harmonics added during saturation process.
@thisguy5611 the only thing not making sense it's stupid arguments over a simple example. Anyone with a brain who mixed for a week understands there's a difference between a mix and a sine wave, just like everyone with a brain understands there's also a difference between an 808 snare sample and a freaking piano. It's not hard, this is not the place where you try to look smart.
Honest question: If the newbie engineer can´t hear it without trained ears and a good monitoring system - most listeners won´t either. So why care? When does bad distortion really become relevant? On the other hand, distributing saturation/distortion across multiple sources gives a lot more of control, and that´s the bigger reason in my humble opinion.
@@acdnrg I’ve thought about this before too. I think it comes down to records competing with each other. If you hear an overcooked mix on its own, it might just sound loud. But if you hear it next to a properly cooked mix that’s just as loud (or more likely louder because the mastering engineer could do more with it), then the overcooked mix sounds relatively gross.
Mate, I know this is an older video but you are the most honest and well-spoken engineer out there. Everything you say is backed by evidence whereas everyone else is "trust me on this". Instant sub.
It's the same reason that when using heavy distortion/fuzz on guitar using fewer or single notes and notes close to a simple ratio (2:3:4 power chord or maybe 4:5ish:6 major chord) sound better than eg minor chord (5:6ish:15). The distortion creates sum and difference frequencies often much lower than the original sounds.
There's a few synths that compensate for that. Uhe's Repro 5 applies distortion at the per voice level and you can create some quite quite complex sonorities using this before everything turns sour. One of the iterations of Access Virus also did this, but if I remember correctly, it calculated a more consonant tuning for each chord. Although it's difficult to see how that would work practically without some latency.
This is a BRILLIANT way to show the difference in how processing individual tracks and busses can yield far better results (especially with Clippers) than just trying to do it ll on the mix or even the master buss. Well Done!!!
Watching this backs up completely what I remember a fairly well known producer said: “your mix should be so well done, all you need on your master is a limiter.” Maybe a bit extreme, BUT it has me completely reevaluating my entire mixdown process, this singular video. Thank you for uploading this.
Nice video. Usually do 0.5db to max 1.5db clipping when on the master bus/2 bus. Sometimes no clipping at all here if done methodically on individual tracks and buses.
Thanks man, I've been engineering, mixing and mastering since the 90s and seldom learn anything on UA-cam that I hadn't already figured out yet I learn from you from time to time and enjoy listening to someone who thinks like me and knows his shit. You are definitely the best out here. Thanks and keep it up brother.
I've watched so many of your videos over the years, David, and this one was one of the best IMO. What an excellent explanation + audio demonstration. Thanks for everything.
A superb lesson, David; clear and simple. Plus it's always good when I find out I've been adopting the right approach without knowing it. It didn't make sense to me in a mixing scenario to add a clipper to the 2bus when I had the opportunity to sort out any issues before they got there. Besides, it just sounded better! Now I know why! 😂
Really good example, thank you. I tend to mix this way as much as possible already, just because it seemed like a good idea, but it's nice to see and hear concrete examples of what kind of difference it makes. It is so much better to be sure of what you're doing and why. I think even if this video got into a more technical explanation of intermodulation, the best way to start such a breakdown would be with this kind of simple example, to make it absolutely clear WHAT phenomena we're trying to understand. Some tutorials get way too technical before the audience has any idea where its all going, and it makes learning fundamentally harder to anyone who isn't already pretty familiar with the subject
This is a great video that we should ALL be aware of. There is a fine line for clipping, saturating, limiting and even compressing on the master / 2bus. good to always get more and more minimal as you get higher up the signal flow. On tracks I go ham and cut and clean as much as I can, but on groups and what not I try to take a more relaxed approach. Its like trying to hear for candy or what sounds like its "in key" when adding saturation to groups and trying to keep things "In key" when clipping groups.
Awesome video. Exactly what I felt when I was attending a recording and mixing session of a friend at a studio. When the mixing engineer slapped a clipper on the master bus and tried to address the peaks, shivers went down my body. I told my friend, I'll do your mixing for free bro just do the recording and let's get the hell out of here
This reminds me of finding out that certain intervals on guitar thru a valve amp can give very bizarre sounds. This makes so much sense now. Lesson learned, thanks!
Such a clear and demonstrative explanation of the topic. I’ve noticed that clipping at mix bus stage definitely tends to create more unpleasant distortion than trying at the instrument bus level. Now I understand why on the analytical level. Thank you so much 🙏🏽
Amazing!!!! Thanks for this, this explains the hassles I had with Saturation Plugins on my Master Bus, I thought the plugins are bad and stop using them
I found that attacking the volume problem track by track gave me HUGE gains by the end of the production. To the point where, I don't need to boost my mix by more than a 1db or 2. Right in the sweet spot for how much limiting or clipping I can get away with on the 2 bus, without wrecking my mix. Where as before, I had to make up 3 to 9 db of gain. Which meant a LOT of processing on the master bus and it never sounded good.
Sure, but whichever sound we choose and solo, won’t be as simple as a sinewave and since whichever sound has timber (that isn’t a sine wave) will kinda act as if we’re adding saturation to the the 2 bus. As no sound consists only of one wave frequency. So wherever we use saturation, the ugly looking result will be kind of the only option (unless we’re using it on a tracks that are made of single sine waves) What do you think?
Well explained. Rule of thumb: Don't use any sound processing on the master bus (mix), except going for very small adjustments to optimise loudness (as what the Mastering engineer usually would do).
Thank you for showing this, I had some mixes I didn't use saturation on tracks, and in laziness on my master, and when I hear some old mixes I made the same mistake. And the last mix sounded fine until I started pushing loudness. Actually it's complete logical but sometimes you need a demonstration!
Not saying there isn't value in this tip, but did you attenuate the gain on the 2bus before going into the Decapitator to compensate for the input difference? If you are not doing so, you are hitting the 2bus decapitator hotter and saturating more.
@@mixbustv of course it’s the point, you were trying to isolate the difference, and if you didn’t attenuate the input exactly by the difference in volume that two sine waves are vs one (probably -6db), most of the mess and the difference in sound you referred us to is coming from decapitator’s response to a hotter input, so of course it’s going to create more complex harmonics. Also interesting you make no consideration of how the 2bus instance would be making musically related harmonics (when the test is not a sine wave of course) vs the individual channels. There is obvious value in the harmonic “mess” you’re talking about, one mostly just needs to think about these tools respond differences in input level and to see the benefits of 2bus saturation vs channels or groups.
Having 2 signals feeding the clipper/decapitator, the input gain is higher, so the amount of distortion. The clipping for the single channels has lower gain and low distortion too. That's another reason why it changes sound
Thanks, buddy, for the well-explained video! One question in my mind: what about compressors? And what about bus compressors? Where are they standing with this information?
WOW! So many other youtubers have preeched saturating at the bus level, but i can see that was a gross over generalization that has me wanting to go and crack open all of my WIPs! Thanks!
Thanks, that helped me, I always had the feeling that something sounded distorted somewhere. That made me really aggressive because I didn't know where it was coming from. It was especially distorting on the sub-bass track, but that's gone now.
I started using saturation like a two or three weeks ago but i noticed it ruined the master, so everytime y tried I finally disconnected in nearly all situations.
Wow that sounds very destructive on the bus. How about light clipping on the 2 bus? or do you not recommend it at all? How about mastering? would that be like throwing it on the 2 bus as well? cheers!
Makes sense when reflecting on the Olden Days... we didn't cram a lot on the mix bus, if anything. But by the time you had used a nice mic (sometimes a tube mic) into a quality signal chain of preamps, consoles, DI boxes with transformers, then printed that to tape (oftentimes through a compressor and EQ on the way), then played that back through the console and printed that mix... there were plenty of stages that would shave off rogue transients, add some nice saturation and distortion and generally "condition" the signal beyond its pure original signal. And all of that happened at the individual track or instrument level for the most part. So when you were combining all these signals in the end for the final mix you weren't trying to add a lot of color at that point. Just blend and balance, add your effects and capture a great mix. Not surprising that a lot of the recordings we hold in highest esteem were approached that way. Not this trend for overzealous top-down mixing with crazy Mix Bus chains... which I'm not a particular fan of, btw.
What a useful video! There are TONS of established UA-camrs that swear by their magic mastering chain, including saturation and clipping for that sought after ''extra loudness or perceived loudness''. That explains the feeling I had where my mastering is louder but not better, never knew why, I was a fan of saturation in mastering.. Wondering now if Saturn2 or Kazrog True Iron is safe on the master....
Always wondered if all those tutorials with Plugin Doc using a single sinewave on a saturator reflected real world scenarios. Clearly not, Brilliant demo, very useful to know. Thanks!
Yes the same applies but PLEASE, let's not take this video as "omg now I'm never gonna use any saturation or clipping on my 2bus" that's NOT what this is about. Clipping converters is a practice that has been used by pros for decades, it's fine. What it's not ok is what home studio people TEND to do nowadays: slamming 6 to 8db on their mix with those tools.
Interesting. I usually put a clipper on the Master bus but only to shave off the very top of the highest peaks: therefore I can't hear any obvious nasty distortion. As you said it's gonna be really bad if you abuse it, not if you just go very soft with it, right?
Great video! Someone asked if the same principle applies to using tape saturation like 542 or units like HG2 Black Box on the master fader. Im interested as well in the answer. Also for some genres applying clipper in mastering is part of the desired sound like in EDM for example. How can you comment on both of those things? Thank you
Analog and plugins are not the same, as we know. The subject has been talked about a lot. Especially when we talk about saturation, analog is more forgiving, better sounding, less artifacts (zero if we focus on the digital artifacts) but the concept still apply, the more complex the material the lighter one should be with the use of these tools. It's quite easy to test it, clipping 5db on a single track and do the same on a full mix. That's the concept of the video. As for the "desired sound" we could talk a LOT about it. Is it desired or it's a trend that just happened because some songs became popular DESPITE how they sound? Because there are, let's say "good" ways to make a track sound aggressive via saturation and "bad" ways. Up to every individual to decide and figure out which is which
Hm. Maybe I am too unexperienced with this, but I won't learn if I don't ask my questions: With these sinewaves it is obvious, that the signal gets more complex, adding several simple sinewaves, but this for me seems far off any reality in mixing (except in electronic musik), right? Isn't even an electric bass sound allready a very complex signal in its frequency spectrum? Is it really getting more complex when mixed with electric guitars in a way that matters in the observed regards? Are drums mixed with electric bass getting more complex in its dynamic spectrum behaviour?
I love frequency selective saturation, and there will even be a big difference when putting lets say a bandpass before or after a clipper... so this topic gets as deep as you like to look at it.
It will not necessarily be as immediately apparent, but it's the principle of it that is important to keep in mind. He used the sine waves because, like you said, the difference is obvious. But if you think that multiple complex signals combined might not be significantly more complex, you are probably letting yourself be tricked by what you personally interpret from spectrum analyzers. You can disprove that theory just by listening. Like in your example, yes drums and electric bass are both quite complex signals, often covering a majority of the audible spectrum. It can be difficult to appreciate their nuances just by looking at an analyzer. But you can prove and understand their deep complex differences just by listening. A full drum kit and an electric bass sound nothing alike. No one would hear one and think it was the other. And you might see on an analyzer what to you don't look like significant differences between the complex signals of a distorted electric guitar and the entire mix, but the mix is many magnitudes more complex (typically, assuming many tracks and/or a variety of tracks). No one would be incapable of hearing the difference between a guitar stem and the entire mix. His point is that if you try to process everything at the end, you will end up with a different result to the person who painstakingly applied processing in small doses over the course of the whole project. The difference could be very significant, or it could be very minimal, so we should be mindful of this principle. Maybe we want to use the intermodulation distortion for a desired artistic purpose, whether on one group of tracks, or on the entire mix. It's up to us. But if we don't even know the differences that result from our processing methods, then we limit our options and understanding of signal processing unnecessarily.
Now THAT is an answer!! Thank you very much!!! I still have to analyse how I will reflect on my perceptions. I see a danger in the oversimplification of the example which maybe opens up 'qualities' which only occur in such a minimalistic setup while this is in no way in contradiction to your observations. Thank you for your detailed point of view!
@@unterwasserbeatboxerYeah for sure I totally understand what you mean. Just to prove your point there are already quite a few people in the comments asking, "So does this mean don't use clippers or saturators on my mixbus?"
Excellent demo of intermodulation distortion! super clear. I'm wondering if hardware clippers are better able to deal with complex signals as opposed to plugins ......
@@mixbustv I was thinking of Mastering grade DA converters on a Lynx Hilo, being clipped. But after listening to Acustica Ash, I'm not sure I can hear any difference between that and the hardware.
I have heard from others too that these kind of processes work better on individual elements or even groups rather than on an entire mix (and by extension the master). If nothing else, those kind of processes can help bring a distinct character to that element and in turn will also help bring cohesion for the entire mix. And a lot of time, that’s all that is needed. An additional thought: I’ve found that you have to be careful when applying additional character to an overall mix. Now, it helps to have some kind of intent behind it. But also, you have to be aware of what it is doing and make adjustments accordingly. For instance, tape-based saturation will have a frequency bias depending on its formula. If you want to use say Type I, which leans toward the low-end, be aware that the low-end will be emphasised more than you probably think. At any rate, good job sir in making the point simply. Let the rage talk commence 😁
I'm late... but it's genre dependent a lot on the main mix. There are genres of music where that nastiness can sound great. It's very, very program dependent. You can think of the clipping as even an effect in those cases and not a dynamics tool.
This is not "a problem" it's normal behavior of saturation (clipping and limiting fall into that), so no it's no different with any of the processors in this category but it is not a problem, just something to know and be aware of
Very good explanation!! I have a lot of problems just when using vintage emulations, which already implement a lot of saturation. For me, it's very difficult to know if I'm overdoing it until I finish the mix.
A lot of people need to watch this video. There are way too many channels of people putting out mixing advice and songs are so distorted in the worst way 💩
Trying to answer a common question already popping up in the comments: NO, I have never said "don't use saturation or clippers on your 2bus" Just be aware of this, so it's easier to hear if you're overdoing and overcooking things with saturation, because certain types of (bad) distortion it's hard to hear if you don't have trained ears AND most importantly, a good monitoring system. That's it. Thank you all!
BUY THE COURSES AT www.mixbustv.com/
CHECK THIS OUT ➡➡ shorturl.at/anrW7
USE THE SUPER THANKS IF YOU LIKED THIS VIDEO! 👆👆👆
You can understand as more complex sound more distortion and unwanted noise which can be hard to handle. Sine wave is great example because of easy way to see a representation of harmonics added during saturation process.
@thisguy5611 the only thing not making sense it's stupid arguments over a simple example. Anyone with a brain who mixed for a week understands there's a difference between a mix and a sine wave, just like everyone with a brain understands there's also a difference between an 808 snare sample and a freaking piano. It's not hard, this is not the place where you try to look smart.
Honest question: If the newbie engineer can´t hear it without trained ears and a good monitoring system - most listeners won´t either. So why care? When does bad distortion really become relevant? On the other hand, distributing saturation/distortion across multiple sources gives a lot more of control, and that´s the bigger reason in my humble opinion.
@@acdnrg I’ve thought about this before too. I think it comes down to records competing with each other. If you hear an overcooked mix on its own, it might just sound loud. But if you hear it next to a properly cooked mix that’s just as loud (or more likely louder because the mastering engineer could do more with it), then the overcooked mix sounds relatively gross.
@@acdnrg shit in shit out mentality.
looks like a UFC fighter, talks like a magician. Good stuff as always.
😂😂😂
Looool
😄
At first we're like, who the F is this guy? Then we grow to LOVE David 😊
Think he can fight?
This is very eye opening. Using saturation on mixbus must be really really gentle
Perfectly showcased why it's more beneficial to saturate/clip in stages!
the best audio/visual mix master teacher on the planet , never feel like theres a single second of filler in ur videos . rock out david
🙏
Very true, there's no waiting, only learning - thanks!!!
Mate, I know this is an older video but you are the most honest and well-spoken engineer out there. Everything you say is backed by evidence whereas everyone else is "trust me on this".
Instant sub.
Thank you!
It's the same reason that when using heavy distortion/fuzz on guitar using fewer or single notes and notes close to a simple ratio (2:3:4 power chord or maybe 4:5ish:6 major chord) sound better than eg minor chord (5:6ish:15).
The distortion creates sum and difference frequencies often much lower than the original sounds.
There's a few synths that compensate for that. Uhe's Repro 5 applies distortion at the per voice level and you can create some quite quite complex sonorities using this before everything turns sour. One of the iterations of Access Virus also did this, but if I remember correctly, it calculated a more consonant tuning for each chord. Although it's difficult to see how that would work practically without some latency.
That makes a lot of sense!
Wow, you did keep it short, but still, this is one of the most useful videos on UA-cam in regards to clipping/saturation.
This is a BRILLIANT way to show the difference in how processing individual tracks and busses can yield far better results (especially with Clippers) than just trying to do it ll on the mix or even the master buss. Well Done!!!
A man who looks like, well, he's not afraid of clippers.
😂
Verry good demonstration David !!!!thank you for caring buddy...
I think this is one of the best videos on this subject I've came across. Simple, concise and really eye-opening. Thanks for this David.
Videos like this are why I am a member. Gold.
🙌🙌
Watching this backs up completely what I remember a fairly well known producer said: “your mix should be so well done, all you need on your master is a limiter.” Maybe a bit extreme, BUT it has me completely reevaluating my entire mixdown process, this singular video. Thank you for uploading this.
Nice video. Usually do 0.5db to max 1.5db clipping when on the master bus/2 bus. Sometimes no clipping at all here if done methodically on individual tracks and buses.
Thanks man, I've been engineering, mixing and mastering since the 90s and seldom learn anything on UA-cam that I hadn't already figured out yet I learn from you from time to time and enjoy listening to someone who thinks like me and knows his shit. You are definitely the best out here. Thanks and keep it up brother.
Thank you!
These short form illustrative videos are some of the most helpful I've seen on audio engineering topics. Nice work, and thanks a lot.
I've watched so many of your videos over the years, David, and this one was one of the best IMO. What an excellent explanation + audio demonstration. Thanks for everything.
Thank you for the support!
A superb lesson, David; clear and simple. Plus it's always good when I find out I've been adopting the right approach without knowing it. It didn't make sense to me in a mixing scenario to add a clipper to the 2bus when I had the opportunity to sort out any issues before they got there. Besides, it just sounded better! Now I know why! 😂
Eye opening! Looking forward to implementing this. Thank you
Short and clear! Thank you for ALL your work David
This is priceless, bro. Thank you for this explanation. 👊🏽
Really good example, thank you. I tend to mix this way as much as possible already, just because it seemed like a good idea, but it's nice to see and hear concrete examples of what kind of difference it makes. It is so much better to be sure of what you're doing and why. I think even if this video got into a more technical explanation of intermodulation, the best way to start such a breakdown would be with this kind of simple example, to make it absolutely clear WHAT phenomena we're trying to understand. Some tutorials get way too technical before the audience has any idea where its all going, and it makes learning fundamentally harder to anyone who isn't already pretty familiar with the subject
This is a great video that we should ALL be aware of. There is a fine line for clipping, saturating, limiting and even compressing on the master / 2bus. good to always get more and more minimal as you get higher up the signal flow. On tracks I go ham and cut and clean as much as I can, but on groups and what not I try to take a more relaxed approach. Its like trying to hear for candy or what sounds like its "in key" when adding saturation to groups and trying to keep things "In key" when clipping groups.
"good to always get more and more minimal as you get higher up the signal flow" - that's the sentence right there!
Awesome video. Exactly what I felt when I was attending a recording and mixing session of a friend at a studio. When the mixing engineer slapped a clipper on the master bus and tried to address the peaks, shivers went down my body. I told my friend, I'll do your mixing for free bro just do the recording and let's get the hell out of here
This is a wonderful revelation. It is causing me to completely re-think the placement and use of saturation tools in the mixing process.
This reminds me of finding out that certain intervals on guitar thru a valve amp can give very bizarre sounds. This makes so much sense now. Lesson learned, thanks!
Such a clear and demonstrative explanation of the topic. I’ve noticed that clipping at mix bus stage definitely tends to create more unpleasant distortion than trying at the instrument bus level. Now I understand why on the analytical level. Thank you so much 🙏🏽
We need this cause alot of people just throwing clippers on everything now
Facts!
Amazing!!!! Thanks for this, this explains the hassles I had with Saturation Plugins on my Master Bus, I thought the plugins are bad and stop using them
Great example! Video title should better include "saturator" as well, as not only clipper but also saturator is demonstrated very well. Thanks!
Oh wow, thanks so much! Love to learn more on the technical aspects of mixing!
Thank you David. Amazing insight into clippers. What an eyeopener! Many Thanks.
🙌
thank you
I found that attacking the volume problem track by track gave me HUGE gains by the end of the production. To the point where, I don't need to boost my mix by more than a 1db or 2. Right in the sweet spot for how much limiting or clipping I can get away with on the 2 bus, without wrecking my mix. Where as before, I had to make up 3 to 9 db of gain. Which meant a LOT of processing on the master bus and it never sounded good.
David always comes up with the most mind blowing content on mixing. Thank you!!
I use limiters and clippers in mix only, if on master, I do it in a very subtle way to not smash the signal too much.
I was just having a problem with two synths I was trying to layer with distortion, I think this could be the problem! Thanks for sharing.
Brilliant video.
This teaches so many lessons in one simple example. Thanks
Hands down of the most important information that I have come accross.
Thanks a ton for this David.
Unbelievably eye opening. Thank you so much for making the world a better place!!!!!
This was highly informative thank you 🤘💀🍻🔥🙏
Sure, but whichever sound we choose and solo, won’t be as simple as a sinewave and since whichever sound has timber (that isn’t a sine wave) will kinda act as if we’re adding saturation to the the 2 bus. As no sound consists only of one wave frequency. So wherever we use saturation, the ugly looking result will be kind of the only option (unless we’re using it on a tracks that are made of single sine waves)
What do you think?
Of course, but a snare is always gonna be more complex than a piano
Many useful advices shared here & true gems for those not in the know. ☆☆☆☆☆
Oh my god that just opened my eyes to so many things
Maybe my favorite channel... Always good stuff here. Thx buddy. Greets from belgium 🇧🇪
Well explained. Rule of thumb: Don't use any sound processing on the master bus (mix), except going for very small adjustments to optimise loudness (as what the Mastering engineer usually would do).
Thank you for showing this, I had some mixes I didn't use saturation on tracks, and in laziness on my master, and when I hear some old mixes I made the same mistake. And the last mix sounded fine until I started pushing loudness. Actually it's complete logical but sometimes you need a demonstration!
Not saying there isn't value in this tip, but did you attenuate the gain on the 2bus before going into the Decapitator to compensate for the input difference? If you are not doing so, you are hitting the 2bus decapitator hotter and saturating more.
Not the point. You can attenuate as much as you want and hitting it even lower, the result will not change (especially with plugins)
@@mixbustv of course it’s the point, you were trying to isolate the difference, and if you didn’t attenuate the input exactly by the difference in volume that two sine waves are vs one (probably -6db), most of the mess and the difference in sound you referred us to is coming from decapitator’s response to a hotter input, so of course it’s going to create more complex harmonics. Also interesting you make no consideration of how the 2bus instance would be making musically related harmonics (when the test is not a sine wave of course) vs the individual channels. There is obvious value in the harmonic “mess” you’re talking about, one mostly just needs to think about these tools respond differences in input level and to see the benefits of 2bus saturation vs channels or groups.
Wow I never thought of this. It makes perfect sense, thanks for opening my eyes!!
THIS IS AMAZING!!! Learning by example and all to the point. Very very good.
Having 2 signals feeding the clipper/decapitator, the input gain is higher, so the amount of distortion. The clipping for the single channels has lower gain and low distortion too. That's another reason why it changes sound
I promise you the plot will look exactly the same. We can try if you want
@@mixbustv I'll definitely try tomorrow! Keep doing videos like this, great job
Thanks, buddy, for the well-explained video! One question in my mind: what about compressors? And what about bus compressors? Where are they standing with this information?
This is one hell of a fantastic video! Thank you so much!
Is analog saturation more forgiving on the 2bus? Intermodulation is digital right?
It is yes and of course you don't have aliasing
@@mixbustv thanks for the answer!
Great video Dave! Can you please do a new studio/rack tour? You have a ton of new things now!
+1 for the gear tour
+2 for the studio tour! Also a tour of the Bunker Recording Studios!
I'll make it happen
THANK YOU!
Awesome video. Thank you!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. This is pure gold!
Oh! this thing alone is huge. Thanks!😅
WOW! So many other youtubers have preeched saturating at the bus level, but i can see that was a gross over generalization that has me wanting to go and crack open all of my WIPs! Thanks!
Now... this is a really eye-opener video! Thanks a lot!!!
Thanks, that helped me, I always had the feeling that something sounded distorted somewhere. That made me really aggressive because I didn't know where it was coming from. It was especially distorting on the sub-bass track, but that's gone now.
Best educative video ive seen in a long time. Thank you so much!
I started using saturation like a two or three weeks ago but i noticed it ruined the master, so everytime y tried I finally disconnected in nearly all situations.
Thank you so much David, this was definitely eye opening! Going to change my workflow.
Wow that sounds very destructive on the bus. How about light clipping on the 2 bus? or do you not recommend it at all? How about mastering? would that be like throwing it on the 2 bus as well?
cheers!
Tested this on my system. IT IS REPEATABLE. Good job, David. 👍🏼
Makes sense when reflecting on the Olden Days... we didn't cram a lot on the mix bus, if anything. But by the time you had used a nice mic (sometimes a tube mic) into a quality signal chain of preamps, consoles, DI boxes with transformers, then printed that to tape (oftentimes through a compressor and EQ on the way), then played that back through the console and printed that mix... there were plenty of stages that would shave off rogue transients, add some nice saturation and distortion and generally "condition" the signal beyond its pure original signal. And all of that happened at the individual track or instrument level for the most part. So when you were combining all these signals in the end for the final mix you weren't trying to add a lot of color at that point. Just blend and balance, add your effects and capture a great mix.
Not surprising that a lot of the recordings we hold in highest esteem were approached that way. Not this trend for overzealous top-down mixing with crazy Mix Bus chains... which I'm not a particular fan of, btw.
Thanks David for this video. I would say eye opener but it's more an ear opener. Good to both see and hear what the difference is.
Working on a higher sample rate also increases the intermodulation distortion
Could. Not a rule, it's not as straightforward
man I love this channel, outstanding
🙏
What a useful video! There are TONS of established UA-camrs that swear by their magic mastering chain, including saturation and clipping for that sought after ''extra loudness or perceived loudness''.
That explains the feeling I had where my mastering is louder but not better, never knew why, I was a fan of saturation in mastering..
Wondering now if Saturn2 or Kazrog True Iron is safe on the master....
That's a big difference. Great video.‼
Always wondered if all those tutorials with Plugin Doc using a single sinewave on a saturator reflected real world scenarios. Clearly not, Brilliant demo, very useful to know. Thanks!
Great video. Thanks so much for clearing this all up.
Very helpful. It proofs what experienced mixers thought anyway.
Thank you for this information…such an excellent example of the difference. 😎👍🏻
Wow that's actually crazy. Great experiment!
What about using clippers like Acustica Audio ASH in mastering to emulate converters clipping? Same thing applies? Thanks
Yes the same applies but PLEASE, let's not take this video as "omg now I'm never gonna use any saturation or clipping on my 2bus" that's NOT what this is about. Clipping converters is a practice that has been used by pros for decades, it's fine. What it's not ok is what home studio people TEND to do nowadays: slamming 6 to 8db on their mix with those tools.
......hold my coffee while I go through some mixes lol. This is pretty massive.
Thanks
An eye opener. Thanks for posting!
Great example. Nuff said.
Interesting. I usually put a clipper on the Master bus but only to shave off the very top of the highest peaks: therefore I can't hear any obvious nasty distortion. As you said it's gonna be really bad if you abuse it, not if you just go very soft with it, right?
Yes
Thank you very much!
Thank you for the support!
this kind of videos i love.... on the point ... exact ...
Wow! Huge difference. Pure gold.
Great video! Someone asked if the same principle applies to using tape saturation like 542 or units like HG2 Black Box on the master fader. Im interested as well in the answer.
Also for some genres applying clipper in mastering is part of the desired sound like in EDM for example. How can you comment on both of those things? Thank you
Analog and plugins are not the same, as we know. The subject has been talked about a lot. Especially when we talk about saturation, analog is more forgiving, better sounding, less artifacts (zero if we focus on the digital artifacts) but the concept still apply, the more complex the material the lighter one should be with the use of these tools. It's quite easy to test it, clipping 5db on a single track and do the same on a full mix. That's the concept of the video. As for the "desired sound" we could talk a LOT about it. Is it desired or it's a trend that just happened because some songs became popular DESPITE how they sound? Because there are, let's say "good" ways to make a track sound aggressive via saturation and "bad" ways. Up to every individual to decide and figure out which is which
Awesome video man! Again, best channel on the planet
Hm. Maybe I am too unexperienced with this, but I won't learn if I don't ask my questions: With these sinewaves it is obvious, that the signal gets more complex, adding several simple sinewaves, but this for me seems far off any reality in mixing (except in electronic musik), right? Isn't even an electric bass sound allready a very complex signal in its frequency spectrum? Is it really getting more complex when mixed with electric guitars in a way that matters in the observed regards? Are drums mixed with electric bass getting more complex in its dynamic spectrum behaviour?
I love frequency selective saturation, and there will even be a big difference when putting lets say a bandpass before or after a clipper... so this topic gets as deep as you like to look at it.
It will not necessarily be as immediately apparent, but it's the principle of it that is important to keep in mind. He used the sine waves because, like you said, the difference is obvious. But if you think that multiple complex signals combined might not be significantly more complex, you are probably letting yourself be tricked by what you personally interpret from spectrum analyzers. You can disprove that theory just by listening.
Like in your example, yes drums and electric bass are both quite complex signals, often covering a majority of the audible spectrum. It can be difficult to appreciate their nuances just by looking at an analyzer. But you can prove and understand their deep complex differences just by listening. A full drum kit and an electric bass sound nothing alike. No one would hear one and think it was the other. And you might see on an analyzer what to you don't look like significant differences between the complex signals of a distorted electric guitar and the entire mix, but the mix is many magnitudes more complex (typically, assuming many tracks and/or a variety of tracks). No one would be incapable of hearing the difference between a guitar stem and the entire mix.
His point is that if you try to process everything at the end, you will end up with a different result to the person who painstakingly applied processing in small doses over the course of the whole project. The difference could be very significant, or it could be very minimal, so we should be mindful of this principle. Maybe we want to use the intermodulation distortion for a desired artistic purpose, whether on one group of tracks, or on the entire mix. It's up to us. But if we don't even know the differences that result from our processing methods, then we limit our options and understanding of signal processing unnecessarily.
Now THAT is an answer!! Thank you very much!!! I still have to analyse how I will reflect on my perceptions. I see a danger in the oversimplification of the example which maybe opens up 'qualities' which only occur in such a minimalistic setup while this is in no way in contradiction to your observations. Thank you for your detailed point of view!
@@unterwasserbeatboxerYeah for sure I totally understand what you mean. Just to prove your point there are already quite a few people in the comments asking, "So does this mean don't use clippers or saturators on my mixbus?"
@djterminus thank you, you saved me the typing :D
Always the best! Thank you Dave 👌👌
Excellent demo of intermodulation distortion! super clear. I'm wondering if hardware clippers are better able to deal with complex signals as opposed to plugins ......
What hardware clippers?
@@mixbustv I was thinking of Mastering grade DA converters on a Lynx Hilo, being clipped. But after listening to Acustica Ash, I'm not sure I can hear any difference between that and the hardware.
I have heard from others too that these kind of processes work better on individual elements or even groups rather than on an entire mix (and by extension the master). If nothing else, those kind of processes can help bring a distinct character to that element and in turn will also help bring cohesion for the entire mix. And a lot of time, that’s all that is needed.
An additional thought: I’ve found that you have to be careful when applying additional character to an overall mix. Now, it helps to have some kind of intent behind it. But also, you have to be aware of what it is doing and make adjustments accordingly. For instance, tape-based saturation will have a frequency bias depending on its formula. If you want to use say Type I, which leans toward the low-end, be aware that the low-end will be emphasised more than you probably think.
At any rate, good job sir in making the point simply. Let the rage talk commence 😁
I'm late... but it's genre dependent a lot on the main mix. There are genres of music where that nastiness can sound great. It's very, very program dependent. You can think of the clipping as even an effect in those cases and not a dynamics tool.
Another great video. Appreciate the immense value you offer for free through your content!
This channel is amazing.
What about Gold clip? Do they somehow avoid this problem with a clip bus plugin?
This is not "a problem" it's normal behavior of saturation (clipping and limiting fall into that), so no it's no different with any of the processors in this category but it is not a problem, just something to know and be aware of
@@mixbustv thanks!
Very good explanation!! I have a lot of problems just when using vintage emulations, which already implement a lot of saturation. For me, it's very difficult to know if I'm overdoing it until I finish the mix.
A lot of people need to watch this video. There are way too many channels of people putting out mixing advice and songs are so distorted in the worst way 💩