I’ve had my 400 for just over a week now. Absolutely love it. Looked at plenty more expensive machines, then realised realised this did the same and more than the majority of them. Delighted I chose this, and would highly recommend to anyone who, like me, wants to take the next step from something like a Gaggia Classic Pro.
Hey Al, Thanks a whole latte for sharing your experience (love and delight) with the Pro 400! GCP is a fantastic premium entry-level machine and the 400 is a wonderful step up to a simpler work flow. Marc
I’m sort of in the same boat. Want to upgrade from GCP. Considering this machine, the Lelit Elizabeth, and the Rancilio Silvia Pro X. This machine just looks nicer than the Elizabeth, and seems to do better with dispensing hot water than the Silvia Pro X. The only thing I wished it had is a shot timer, which really isn’t absolutely necessary. How long do you generally allow it to heat up?
Gday Marc, Nick from Australia here…fantastic video again, thanks so much. It’s so easy to make a decision on buying a machine after watching your videos. Keep ‘em coming mate.
In reference to Mark saying not to use the highest temp: You can brew super light roasts at 208, in fact for some of the nordic style roasts I do, 208 is right where they taste best.
Had my 400 a week, fantastic machine. Incredible upgrade from my sage barista express. It was a toss up between the ECM slim/Mara x. The 400 is newer machine with better features than its more expensive rival. Spent far to long reading reviews before taking the leap. Early days and more fine tuning but it makes an incredible espresso, different league from the old machine. 8-10 minutes from start up and machine is ready to go. Great service from Bellabarista when ordering. Fantastic video, instrumental in helping me decide.
Hi Andre, congrats on your new machine and thanks for your patronage! If you have not already done so check out our flow control videos like this one for easy ways to get more out of the device: ua-cam.com/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/v-deo.html Also, if you need some one on one help with your new machine you can schedule a CoffeeCast. That's a free live online video session with our product experts: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/coffeecast Marc
@@AnotherBangaTV I like it a lot. I just got wood accents for it from Etsy and it’s been performing like a champ. The only thing that has been annoying is the cam and lever squeaking sometimes. This is due to the lubricant being washed away during back flush or shots being pulled. You get to learn to maintenance it and get hands on the anatomy of the machine.
@@Wholelattelovepage I appreciate how Profitec has something at just about every price range/feature set, and still focus on build quality and long term performance.
So as a sage/Breville B Express user I have the option ( in this price point, and nearby shops ) of the Quick Mill Rubino - Profitec Pro 400 - Rocket Appartamento . The grinder will most certanly be the Eureka Mignon Single Dose 65 . I was really set on the Quick Mill Rubino ( black with wood details edition ) but after this and a few other reviews of the Profitec I think I found my next Machine :-)
Looks really impressive for a machine without PID! I used to blacklist anything without a PID for anyone being slightly serious about espresso but something like this could cut it. However I just saw it's price and wow... at 2500$CAD it is still very expensive for such a small HX without PID, mostly when I think that just before covid I bought my mom a (Rocket Mozzafiato Cronometro Type V) for the same price! Things quickly got a lot more expensive within a year for not much real reasons imo, like they could have went up temporary during a shortage but then it never went down to normal pricing when the workflow went back to pre-covid. So I'll prolly keep suggesting an upgraded (Gaggia Classic Pro) like the one my best friend just bought at WLL few weeks ago for a very first quality machine and an entry to the world of espresso machines as very few people will be willing to spend almost 4x the price of the Gaggia to still get the lowest-end Profitec and still have no PID though according to your test results, it's pressurestat seem to fluctuate far less and have a better stability. I guess all pressurestats aren't made the same and some can be way better than others. That (Profitec Pro 400) prolly just "kills" the (Rocket Appartemento) which has an extremely bad value with today's pricing. It just sucks that it's the nicest looking one but specs is what matters most. EDIT: What the heck I just noticed the (Profitec Pro 500) is ONLY an extra of 200$CAD at 2700$CAD yet you get a bigger boiler with a PID too! Gotta be a real fool to skip those 2 major improvement just to save that little money between the 2 models... it really makes no sense as if they made the 400 that expensive just because it was smaller??? It would be worth considering at 2000$CAD I'd say but as it is now, I would never recommend it to anyone unless the person has absolutely no space on his counter.
Yeah it's truly unfortunate. Before COVID you could find the Rocket Apartamento for less than USD 1500, now it normally runs 1800-1900 depending where you buy.
@@SammyEatsYourBrain99 I think Profitec adjusted the price down after release when they noticed people weren't buying it. Now this machine (in US) it's priced to compete with BZ10 at around $1500-1600, which $1900-2000 Canadian.
@@actualreplyguy Now that would make much more sense cause like I said it never should had been above 1900-2000$CAD for its specs and for other Profitec to not cannibalize its own sales such as with the 500.
Hi t, you are welcome. I agree on the wand. Beyond less chance of burn they are easier to clean with less milk baking on and produce drier steam due to less internal condensation. Marc
How accurate is the brew pressure gauge on the machine itself? After installing a pressure gauge on the group (without flow control) the pressure reading was higher than that on the machine, which gauge should I trust if the mounted gauge is correct my lowest OPV adjustment setting is 10 bars which seems too high.
Hi a, Thanks for the question. It's not unusual to see a difference in the machine gauge versus group mounted gauge - especially during an extraction. Understand the gauges are not lab grade calibrated so if one has a slight error one way and another the other way the error adds up. a difference of a bar or so is insignificant to extraction quality.
Thanks for the hint to the available temperature gauge for the _Flow Profil Valve E61_ - excellent idea! Very nice review, these machines are really fun. I am very much enjoying my _ECM Synchronika_ for the first month by now. Isn't it awesome that both _profitec_ and _ECM_ are coming from the same company group? Yes, this _profitec_ machine is nice, but I am afraid my _Synchronika_ is still teasing me more to be polished all day long… ;-)
Hi Marc, Great review like always and nice machine! Is there anything in the works to create a combo grouphead thermometer/manometer so one does not have to choose between either monitoring temperature or the flow control?
Does flicking to the high temperature once brewing has begun (and is underway) increase temperature during the shot? Also, my local retailers here say this IS a PID machine - a little confused if it is pressurestat or PID
Hi B, It is a PID machine there's a probe in the boiler monitoring temp, no pressurestat. Since there's a heat exchanger in the boiler pushing to high temp after a shot has started does not change the brew temp - not enough time for that to happen. Marc
Hi MWM, I'd go with the Pro 400 with flow control. But that doesn't mean you should. I like the Pro 400 for the flexibilty of having flow control. Trade off is a little less precision in brew temps and a longer initial heat up time. Also like the more visible dual gauge on the 400 but miss the shot timer of the BZ13. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi there, thanks for the great review! I was just wondering how long it takes the machine to heat up when you start it? As in how long do you have to wait from turning it on until you can make coffee?
@@Peter-od8gv My local coffee machine shop told me that it's similar to all the other machines with the E61 brewing group and should be around 15 mins.
Hi Z, Thanks for the question. It's about 30 minutes until the group head temperature stabilizes. The boiler is at full temp much sooner but it takes longer to heat the mass of the group via the E61's thermosiphon. You can help things along by running blank shots with an empty portafilter in place and have reasonable temps in about 20 minutes. Many users of these this type of machine have an appropriately rated appliance timer or wifi timer to have the machine ready and waiting at specific times.
What was the temperature stability throughout pulling a shot like compared to the Profitec pro 500? Do you have the highest and lowest temperatures from the scace readings? Thanks 😊
Hi h, The Pro 400 was very consistent. On the middle temperature position Scace reading was 201.8 at 8 seconds after pump on. Maximum temp of 202.4 at 17 seconds, minimum of 201.7 at 27 seconds. From 8 to 27 maximum variation = 0.7F. It's been 4-5 years since I tested a Pro 500. I don't have that level of detail for the 500 but as I recall it's similar. Hope that helps! Marc
Is a flow control usable in this? Since it’s got the automatic pre infusion for 5second unlike the rocket apartmento. Also does it alert you when the water is running low? Get this with flow control or get the rocket apartmento ? Thanks
Hey Mark I need some help in choosing the right espresso machine- I drink 2-3 cups espresso/ Americanos per day typically, don’t need milk, have a grinder already. Please recommend some options. Thanks
Hi SG, If you will never do milk a single boiler machine can serve you well and still do a milk drink should the need arise. My goto recommendation and best value in a machine grade entry-level espresso machine is the Gaggia Classic Pro: www.wholelattelove.com/products/gaggia-classic-pro-espresso-machine-in-cherry-red If you might be doing higher-end specialty coffees like high-altitude single origins roasted lighter you might consider a higher level machine with better temperature control and flow control. The ECM Classkia is an excellent (and significantly more expensive) single boiler PID machine with E61 brew group. It's available with or without flow control. PID gives you precise control of brew temps. This machine has excellent 5/5 star owner reviews: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-classika-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control Hope that helps! Marc
Hi s, thanks for the question. Some minor water dripping on heat up is not out of the ordinary. Continuous water dripping after heat up is not. If you purchased machine from us and need additional assistance please contact our tech support staff here: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us
I have the flow control installed on this machine and it will no longer thread all the way into the machine anymore. When tightened down all the way, many threads are still exposed on the flow control knob, and it is getting worse every time I unthread it to increase flow and then attempt to retighten it. Do you know what might be wrong and how I could fix it? Thank you so much for your amazing videos and comments!
Hi VT, Here's a video on cleaning calibration of the flow control device: ua-cam.com/video/ELIwD40tsrs/v-deo.html Video covers full rebuild of E61 group. section regarding flow control begins at ~23 minutes in the video. Marc
I have the Profitec 400 with Flow Control and was wondering what stock flow should be? The 1 1/4 turns setting is way over the 6.9g/s that I've seen shown on the flow control video for vibration pump machines.
Hi rh, When your FC is fully closed do you get no flow? If not, you will need to adjust so it does. Here's a video that shows how to do that: ua-cam.com/video/ELIwD40tsrs/v-deo.htmlsi=6cFBjl3zIiXc0sHl&t=1670 Stock flow rate on the 400 is 7-8g/s
Just got machine and love it...question when you use the pre-infusion function when do you start timing the shot? I always get a few grams 3-5 that drop after pre-infusion but before the pump restarts?
Hi Marc, thanks for the great videos. Is the Pro 400 the smallest e61-style machine with steam and hot water wands? My wife would like the smallest machine available, but steam and hot water are a must. Thanks again.
Hi MJ, You are welcome for the videos. At just under 9" wide the Pro 400 is the smallest width E61machine with individual steam and hot water wands I'm aware of. Marc
Hi JR, No specific setup for adding a PID. It's different than most non-PID HX machines in that it uses a temperature probe (like you'd have on a PID machine) in the boiler and not a pressure stat to read temperature. Marc
Hey Marc! After a few weeks w/ this machine I disabled the pre-infusion since I"m using the flow control to experiment w/ varying profiles. Seems I get better extractions w/ no pre-infusion/pre-infusion off when using flow control or maybe I'm imagining things?
Hey greg! Using flow control gets you a lot more control than the auto pre-infusion so you're not imaging things! Some coffees like darker roasts and coffees a bit beyond prime freshness do better with no pre-infusion. For those, hit them hard at start of extraction then reduce flow rate as shot progresses to avoid/reduce bitter or stale flavors. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Right, thanks. I enjoy dark roasts so I do "hit 'em hard" in the beginning and taper off at the end. Also I'm timing my shots to get that 30 sec extraction which flow control excels at allowing you to do. Also I am NAILING the frothing now that I'm used to a professional frothing wand. Oh man...the microfoam you get from a machine like this is just stellar. Gotta limit myself to one cappuccino in the AM and one after dinner otherwise I'd be drinking a gallon of milk a day! Espresso shots, on the other hand? I'm wired all day long.
Hi Marc, for future reference, are the steam and hot water assemblies upgradable/exchangeable to a lever action type ones like the Synchronika? Thanks!
Hi Mic Y, Thanks for the question. Well everything can be hacked but no upgrade available or easy install of Snynchronika lever action valves on the Pro 400. It can be easily done on the Pro 700. Marc
I have a Breville Dual Boiler which has performed admirably for 9 years but is going with my adult son who is moving out soon, as a moving gift. Narrowed down previous handful of machines to this or the Bezzera BZ13...attracted to the stability and build of this, but am wondering if the two lower preset temps are good enough. Have always used 200F with good results for the medium/dark roasts I generally get....would the lower temp be too low and the medium temp too high? Any easy tricks (flush, switch to med temp right before shot, etc) work or is actual med brew temp 'close enough'? Analysis paralysis!
Hi Sam, Lucky son - make sure he takes care of that BDB. Its had quite the run! For temps on the Pro 400. I'd try both the preset tending to use the lower for the dark roasts and the medium with with medium roasts. If you find medium temp is too much then you can always use it and do a short flush to drop temp a bit. The BZ13 does offer more precision in brew temps, quick heat up and lever operated valves should you prefer those. Personally, I prefer the look of the Pro 400 and the E61 group which is available with flow control if that's something you're interested in. Not sure this will cure your paralysis 😉 Marc
Hi Marc. Great Review. Does this have the same thermal stability as a PID system? So functioning like the Profitech Pro 500, minus the screen/shot timer but otherwise the same quality of shots and steam/water temps?
Hi k, Yes thermal stability is the same as the 400 uses a PID to control. The difference is the 3 non-adjustable temp presets on the Pro 400 vs continuously adjustable temps on the Pro 500. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc, in the review blog on your website, the reviewer says "Even though the Pro 400 isn’t equipped with PID temperature control, these temperature pre-sets show that you’re still getting a high level of temperature stability and reliability that will make it easy to get the same setting every time you brew." -- so, does it really have a PID or not?
@@a_gg from the reply above, it has PID, which means more stable temperature than pressure stat. PID does not always mean you can set whatever temp you want, just mean stability. So 400 has internal PID. That’s my understanding
Hi dj, I'd easily take the Pro 400. It has 3 level temperature control, shot timer, extended functions through PID display like cleaning and programmable power off. The other machines are pressure stat temperature controlled so nowhere near the consistency of the 400. Also, don't know prices in UK but Pro 400 cost less than the others in US. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi juan, I have no preference between copper or stainless steel. Copper was the traditional material used but in the last 10 years or so stainless steel is more common for boilers. Marc
Hate the colored disclets, can they just be removed? Debating between this and the Rocket Apartamento, have seen the latter for as low as ~ $1400 not sure if the $200 more for Profitec Pro 400 is the right course of action between the two?
I had to decide between the Rocket and Pro 400. Ended up going with the 400 bc the quality seemed higher and I heard about some qc problems with Rocket. Plus you get the two brew temps (which i have not used one time). The only upgrade ive done so far is ECM bottomless portafilter. Its a great looking small-footprint machine and the coffee is really good. My previous machine was a Bezzera BZ13 from WLL. An excellent machine. I just wanted a different look.
Thank you for your comprehensive review, I really appreciate it. I have been researching like crazy trying to understand what mixture of water to put in my machine before I start using it for the first time to prevent limescale build up. It says in the user manual not to descale this machine yourself and it can only be performed by a dealer. Is that really my only option for maintenance on this machine? Its past the return window and now I really wish I bought something I could descale myself. I would appreciate any suggestions greatly.
Hi VT, You are welcome. Dealers put the "only by a dealer" line in manuals as their is a small risk of a piece of scale dislodging during descaling and plugging up something else in the water system. Then the consumer contacts the dealer and complains their machine is not working. In reality, you can descale the Pro 400 yourself. The risk of issue is higher in a dual boiler machine. As a machine using a heat-exchange boiler the risk is near zero in your Pro 400 unless the machine is very severely scaled. Here's a video showing how to descale a machine like the Pro 400: ua-cam.com/video/yEGfyJkWSqU/v-deo.html Going forward I strongly suggest you treat water used in the machine to prevent scale from forming in the first place. I do not know how hard (mineral rich) your tap water is. If you know it's classed as hard then it's very important to treat your source water or descale the machine on regular basis. If you know it's classed as soft or moderately hard then there's likely not much (if any) scale in the machine but you should still either treat water or descale on a regular basis just to be sure. Here are two water treatment options which when used as directed will prevent scale from forming in your machine. They eliminate possibility of scale formation by exchanging scale causing calcium ions in water with magnesium ions. You do want some minerals in the water to support good flavor and prevent corrosion which can occur if you try to use mineral free water like distilled or pure reverse osmosis water. BWT Bestsave pad filters which drop in reservoir: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestsave-s-anti-scale-filter BWT Penguin filter pitcher: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-penguin-2-7-l-water-pitcher Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Wow, thank you so much for the incredibly helpful response Marc! I had seen those special in-tank filters, but was not sure that it would be compatible with the Pro 400. To prevent scale I purchase the Third Wave Water packets to add to distilled water, which they claim is a ‘permanent hardness’ that doesn’t precipitate scale deposits inside of the machine at all. I’m hoping that is true, but I will try the filter you suggested if scaling is still occurring. I appreciate your help so greatly!
@@veggietables6974 You are welcome. I have some experience with dosing pure water with pre-packaged minerals. I do know it's $$ long-term. A few years back I did a video on creating your own additives for pure water using baking soda and Epsom salt: ua-cam.com/video/iHI7jC0sQZo/v-deo.html Not as convenient as prepackaged but very cost effective!
Profitec dont make it easy - this machine has everything except PID/shot timer that im looking for. But then there is the GO, which has the PID and faster warm up time, but costs 40% less. The only down side to the GO seems to be lack of flow control that comes with an E61 group (although the flow control addition seems to be hard to find in the UK so actually no difference), but its about 40% cheaper. For somebody that just makes 1 or 2 espressos at a time, im finding hard to look anywhere other than the GO, even though I like the E61 aesthetic. Am I missing something?
For me i will go with Go The flow control is upgrade n cost u It might squeeze out d last bit of d espresso profile taste With 400 + flow control u might end up near $2k While d Go have all u need to make quality espresso at $1k Lastly as for me i did try espresso using flow control n without I cant taste huge difference And if u make latte or capucinno d milk will cover it
Do you have friends ? 😂 The main question is : What happens if you need 4-6 shots one after another ? Profitec GO or something similar with 1 liter less boiler from other competitors will not help you. So , e61 grup is the way instead two boilers.
Another question Marc, I’ve seen in Europe market they have black side panels , any idea if that would be an item I could order later? Same goes for wooden knobs?
Hi Andre, Not 100% certain on availability or timing of panel options in North America. I did speak with Profitec's CEO following the SCA show a couple of weeks ago and there may be some on the horizon. For wooden knobs, no options currently available. Marc
Hi robert, Thanks for the question. Yes If purchased with flow control comes with group gauge as seen here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-400-espresso-machine-flow-control And, at the moment flow control including the gauge is a free upgrade! Marc
Hi Marc, so I’m using a puck screen with my portafilter and when I lock it into place I kinda have to jimmy it in and I notice the group head slightly moving as well, should I reduce my dose? After I pull the shot it’s easy to unlock. I was using 18 g before the puck screen and it locked in smooth like butter.
Hi M, Thanks for the question. So currently the ECM Classika is the same price as the Pro 400. Big difference is the Classika is a single boiler machine so you cannot brew and steam simultaneously. Classika is oriented to those who do not do a lot of milk drinks. Takes longer to make milk drinks on single boiler machines. But, the Classika does have very precise control of brew temps. On the Pro 400 you have PID but with 3 distinct temperature presets as discussed in the video. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi Marc, the Profitec Pro 400 machine is now a little over a year old. Has it gotten any updates since launch I should be aware of, or do you know if a version with subtle improvements is in the makes like they did with the 500? Thanks!
Hi X, Thanks for the question. No updates or subtle improvements to date or in the works that I'm aware of. But, do have a look at the ECM Mechanika Slim VI: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-mechanika-vi-slim-espresso-machine-heritage-line Very similar machine made by Profitec's sister company with more finishing details. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the reply! I think I'm going for the 400 :) has everything I'm looking for in a machine. Yes the drip tray could have been a little bit bigger, and unfortunately no shot timer, but for the price you are getting a lot of quality engineering. Always wanted a Profitec. I'm "upgrading" from a Brewtus IV, so going back from dual boiler to HX. Hopefully flushing won't be a big deal and I'll still get good temperature consistency, with the advantages of much better build quality, smaller profile, easier maintenance and quicker heat-up times :)
Hi C, 2-5 minute heat up dual boiler does not exist. Suggestion is an appliance timer so machine can turn on in advance, heat up and be ready to use on your schedule. Use a WiFi connected timer and you can turn machine on/off from virtually anywhere. There are a couple of machies with built in timers like the ECM Mechanika Max: ua-cam.com/video/UfEysGSVEd8/v-deo.html Marc
Hello, I've had the pro400 for a week and I have several questions that I can't find the answer to in any video. When starting the extraction at 1.5 Barr pressure in the group, the pump pressure only rises to 5 Barr. The coffee comes out without any foam like washed and acid at a temperature of 44C. The coffee is new and medium roasted, I have it at the medium temperature. Help to improve please!!
Hi Marc, this is definitely something many would like, basic simple features, but not super fancy. I assume since it’s e61, the heat up time is still over the 20 minute range? Also, the temperature control on this is pressure-stat? I keep seeing HX machines with temperature control, but many say if you really want temperature control, you need a double boiler. Been eyeing the Silvia pro X, but with this machine, I may change my mind on that. 🤔
Hi Bill, Thanks for the comments! HX machines with PID temperature control are quite common and do a good job. But, temps do creep up a bit if machine is on and idle for extended periods. Easy to take care of that with a short flush. Dual boilers are more stable. Temperature control on the 400 does not use a pressure-stat. You can see the temperature probe here: ua-cam.com/video/0uC6iQoCWSI/v-deo.html It's the black wire at front top of boiler. I should have pointed that out in the video. Heat up time is in the 20+ minute range for full stability. Marc
Just got my pro 400. Absolutely wonderful machine. I did have a question regarding the flow rate. As it came preinstalled with the flow control device, I’m curious to know what the stock flow rate on this machine is. Any help would be appreciated.
Hi Marc, I’m having trouble texturing my milk and at times there’s a large burst of air or water that injects into the pitcher, which creates a lot of unwanted bubbles. Please help.
Hi Andre, Are you purging your wand prior to steaming? If not, you will get some extra water in the milk. Always purge the wand before and after steaming. For burst of air... when steaming you're always pushing steam/air into the milk. Controlling that is all about tip postion. In general it should be close to but just underneath the surface of the milk when steaming. Don't start the steam until wand is in this position and keep it under the surface until you shut the steam off. Here's an excellent video on steaming techniques: ua-cam.com/video/4PSCsv7kcKA/v-deo.html Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc, yes I ensure I purge the wand of any water sitting. It might be how the two holes are positioned and how I have the pitcher angled. Just few instances where a sudden big burst of air and excess bubbles with wand tip being submerged or at surface. I will keep practicing, I was just thinking maybe there’s possibly something off with the steam wand too.
Hi adrian, Some standout steam power machines... Times listed to froth 5oz/150ml from fridge temp to 140F/60C Bezzera Aria (13 seconds): www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-aria-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control-pure-steel Bezzera BZ13 (16 seconds): www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-bz13-pm Marc
Hi Paul, If setting using the machine's pressure gauge and backflush disc installed we recommend setting the OPV to produce 10 bar on the gauge. This static pressure reading produces ~9 bar in the group during an actual extraction if coffee is dialed in to proper grind size. Hope that helps! Marc
I’ve had this machine for about two weeks now and started to experience diminished steam pressure. Pulled apart the steam wand and found torn up pieces of an o-ring clogging the steam wand. Contacted WLL and was faced with minimal help and a support team who made me feel stupid for asking to try and resolve this issue. Also I ordered the unit with flow control and it showed up without it - it was eventually sent to me but now I have to install it myself. This machine is quite great except for these issues - would recommend it for the value it provides at this price point. Consider where you order it from though.
Hey Luna, They are very similar machines. Personally, I find the exterior finish quality and details a bit nicer on the Pro 400. Some may prefer the more commercial wire style drip tray and cup warming surface of the Mara X. Marc
Hi Marc, great vid! I really like the look of the pro400 but am also leaning towards the pro500. I’m in Australia so won’t get the updated version with the PID on the front of the machine. Outside of moving the pressure dials and PID location did the pro500 get any other upgrades? What would you pick out of the two? Thanks
Hi Alex, Pro 500 upgrades were the visible PID and gauge location. Slightly different style to the cup rail as well. Out of the 2 I'd pick the Pro 500. Marc
@@sciencescience9102 Hi there! If you'll be doing milk drinks regularly I'd go with the Pro 400 as you cannot brew and steam simultaneously on the Classika. If mostly espresso go with the Classika. Both are PID machines but the 400 has the 3 preset temps and the Classika can set any brew temp you like. Hope that helps! Marc
Great video! So good that I got one from you guys with the flow control. I checked the flow rate per valve turn and after 1 full turn the flow rate stays exactly the same in every other turn. I repeated the test in triplicates per turn and I get the exact same results. Is there anything that you can recommend me to do?
Hi Richard, Thanks the question and your patronage! Here's a link to an article which has a graphs showing flow rates for vibration pump and rotary pump machines. Your Pro 400 has a vibration pump: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines As seen on the graph, on vibration pump machines once you are past 1 full turn flow rate increases from about 6.2g/s to 8g/s out to 1.75 turns. Then jumps to ~10g/s when moving from 1.75 to 2 full turns. The flow in g/s may vary by a gram per second or so depending on machine. One thing you can check is making sure when the flow control is fully closed you are getting no flow. if you get flow with the valve fully closed you may need to adjust calibration. Here's a video showing how to do that - it's very easy to do: ua-cam.com/video/Bxh1ik-orFA/v-deo.html Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the quick response Marc . I definitely have to calibrate, with the valve fully closed there is water coming out and with the valve at 1/4 turn I’m getting ~5.2 g/s and from 1 turn all the way to 2 valve turns I get 7.3 g/s (respectively per every 1/4 turn). Basically I have the same flow rate at 1 valve turn and 2 valve turns.
Hi, I'm loon to purchase my first and most likely onlh espresso machine. I think te best value to quality ratio is the profitec pro 300... But I love the look of the 400 a lot more. Could someone do a comparison of the two or a small list. I still think the pro 300 is better value... Thoughts?
Hi t, We do have this video covering the Pro 300: ua-cam.com/video/tQXm25pMXds/v-deo.html Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison of the machines with current pricing: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NTk5ODc5NDgxMSw2ODI2NTQ3ODcxNzk4 Of note: The Pro 400 is currently priced lower - even for the version with flow control of the group! Marc
yeah exactly. The feature set of the 400 and MaraX are probably the perfect combo for most people. I like the idea of 3 temp settings, again for most people. Most folks won't ever adjust the brew pressure screw. A little bit of tinkering but nothing crazy. $100 more for the Mara, pro 400 arguably is more attractive looking.
@@drewksidetour My pleasure - appreciate your patronage! If you have more questions use a new comment as opposed to replying in a thread. I do my best to answer new comments within 1 business day. Often takes awhile to reply to those in threads. Marc
Hi Naqib, Tough decisions! Flow control opens up very useful brewing techniques. Super useful if you're likely to use relatively fresh from roast specialty coffees. You give up a little without the degree by degree precision of brew temps on the Pro X but in most cases flow control is more impactful. Marc
Thank you again for yet another amazing review. I would have a little question: I have at home the coffee grinder KitchenAid Artisan mod KITCHENAID-IKCG0702ER. Do you think this would be good enough to obtain a good coffee with a prosumer coffee machine? thanks a lot! Luc
Hi Luc, You can use that grinder but results are likely to be subpar and inconsistent. It does not have the precise grind size control needed and probably inconsistent grind particle size which cause under and over-extraction in the same shot.
Hi PU, Thanks for the question. The Pro 400 recovery is on par with other HX boiler machines. It's not so much the flow restrictor affecting recovery as the heating time of new cooler water coming into the HX section of the boiler. Try to pull multiple rapid fire back to back shots on most any HX machine and brew temp will creep lower the more and faster you do them. People often ask about recovery time in relation to commercial use. Be advised that's not what this machine is intended for. It's a domestic/home use machine. It should recover sufficiently by the time you've prepped for next drink in home use. Marc
I’ve had my 400 for just over a week now. Absolutely love it. Looked at plenty more expensive machines, then realised realised this did the same and more than the majority of them. Delighted I chose this, and would highly recommend to anyone who, like me, wants to take the next step from something like a Gaggia Classic Pro.
Whats the difference between the 400, 500, 600, etc?
How much does it cost?
Current pricing here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-400-espresso-machine
Marc
Hey Al, Thanks a whole latte for sharing your experience (love and delight) with the Pro 400! GCP is a fantastic premium entry-level machine and the 400 is a wonderful step up to a simpler work flow.
Marc
I’m sort of in the same boat. Want to upgrade from GCP. Considering this machine, the Lelit Elizabeth, and the Rancilio Silvia Pro X. This machine just looks nicer than the Elizabeth, and seems to do better with dispensing hot water than the Silvia Pro X. The only thing I wished it had is a shot timer, which really isn’t absolutely necessary.
How long do you generally allow it to heat up?
Review aside, love your voice and how dramatic you do the job.
Hey bob, thanks for the comment!
Marc
Thanks Mark. A new machine is not officially reviewed until you have had a look at it.
Hey Jesse, You're welcome and thanks for the comment!
Marc
Gday Marc, Nick from Australia here…fantastic video again, thanks so much. It’s so easy to make a decision on buying a machine after watching your videos. Keep ‘em coming mate.
Hey Nick, Thanks for the kind comment - will do!
Marc
In reference to Mark saying not to use the highest temp: You can brew super light roasts at 208, in fact for some of the nordic style roasts I do, 208 is right where they taste best.
Hi Ron, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Had my 400 a week, fantastic machine. Incredible upgrade from my sage barista express. It was a toss up between the ECM slim/Mara x. The 400 is newer machine with better features than its more expensive rival. Spent far to long reading reviews before taking the leap. Early days and more fine tuning but it makes an incredible espresso, different league from the old machine. 8-10 minutes from start up and machine is ready to go. Great service from Bellabarista when ordering.
Fantastic video, instrumental in helping me decide.
Hi RG, Thanks for the report on your Pro 400 and comparison to Sage! The Sage is an appliance the Profitec is a true machine!
Marc
I'm between the Pro 400 or Lelit Elisabeth and frankly the Elisabeth its much easier to keep clean and has for settings
I pulled the lever last night and bought the Pro 400 with flow control from you guys! Can’t wait to get it! Eventually will add wood accents too!
Hi Andre, congrats on your new machine and thanks for your patronage! If you have not already done so check out our flow control videos like this one for easy ways to get more out of the device: ua-cam.com/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/v-deo.html
Also, if you need some one on one help with your new machine you can schedule a CoffeeCast. That's a free live online video session with our product experts: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/coffeecast
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage awesome thanks for the support!
@@drewksidetour you're welcome - it's what we love to do!
how you like it so far?
@@AnotherBangaTV I like it a lot. I just got wood accents for it from Etsy and it’s been performing like a champ. The only thing that has been annoying is the cam and lever squeaking sometimes. This is due to the lubricant being washed away during back flush or shots being pulled. You get to learn to maintenance it and get hands on the anatomy of the machine.
Marc you’re the best coffee guy on UA-cam! Keep up the great work!
Hey Andrew, You are to kind - thanks and I will!
Marc
Great video Mark! Might have to pick one of these up after college. For now my Delonghi Dedica will get me through.
Hi Shane, Thanks for the comment - a great graduation gift!
Marc
Please pass the roll of paper towels…
🤤🤤🤤 drool drool drool…
Love the functionality of that machine, Mark!!! Thx for the review
☕️👌😃👍
hey USSF, You'e welcome!
Outstanding review! Your visible test numbers and video capture of these many tests was top shelf! Wonderful!
Love my 600. This looks like another winner from Profitec.
Hey rp, Thanks for sharing your love of the 600 - it's a wonderful, compact and powerful dual boiler!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I appreciate how Profitec has something at just about every price range/feature set, and still focus on build quality and long term performance.
Love the look and features of this machine. Another great video Marc (and nice tan!)
Many thanks!
So as a sage/Breville B Express user I have the option ( in this price point, and nearby shops ) of the Quick Mill Rubino - Profitec Pro 400 - Rocket Appartamento . The grinder will most certanly be the Eureka Mignon Single Dose 65 . I was really set on the Quick Mill Rubino ( black with wood details edition ) but after this and a few other reviews of the Profitec I think I found my next Machine :-)
Thx Marc… very thorough and I finally listened to what you have been saying about reduced brew temp for darker roasts. And
Hi Ardy, You're welcome!
Marc
Looks really impressive for a machine without PID! I used to blacklist anything without a PID for anyone being slightly serious about espresso but something like this could cut it. However I just saw it's price and wow... at 2500$CAD it is still very expensive for such a small HX without PID, mostly when I think that just before covid I bought my mom a (Rocket Mozzafiato Cronometro Type V) for the same price! Things quickly got a lot more expensive within a year for not much real reasons imo, like they could have went up temporary during a shortage but then it never went down to normal pricing when the workflow went back to pre-covid.
So I'll prolly keep suggesting an upgraded (Gaggia Classic Pro) like the one my best friend just bought at WLL few weeks ago for a very first quality machine and an entry to the world of espresso machines as very few people will be willing to spend almost 4x the price of the Gaggia to still get the lowest-end Profitec and still have no PID though according to your test results, it's pressurestat seem to fluctuate far less and have a better stability. I guess all pressurestats aren't made the same and some can be way better than others.
That (Profitec Pro 400) prolly just "kills" the (Rocket Appartemento) which has an extremely bad value with today's pricing. It just sucks that it's the nicest looking one but specs is what matters most.
EDIT: What the heck I just noticed the (Profitec Pro 500) is ONLY an extra of 200$CAD at 2700$CAD yet you get a bigger boiler with a PID too! Gotta be a real fool to skip those 2 major improvement just to save that little money between the 2 models... it really makes no sense as if they made the 400 that expensive just because it was smaller??? It would be worth considering at 2000$CAD I'd say but as it is now, I would never recommend it to anyone unless the person has absolutely no space on his counter.
Best Advice, ever!
Yeah it's truly unfortunate. Before COVID you could find the Rocket Apartamento for less than USD 1500, now it normally runs 1800-1900 depending where you buy.
crazy, in germany it costs 1400 euros XD thats about $1,845.22 (CAD)
@@SammyEatsYourBrain99 I think Profitec adjusted the price down after release when they noticed people weren't buying it. Now this machine (in US) it's priced to compete with BZ10 at around $1500-1600, which $1900-2000 Canadian.
@@actualreplyguy Now that would make much more sense cause like I said it never should had been above 1900-2000$CAD for its specs and for other Profitec to not cannibalize its own sales such as with the 500.
Just ordered 1 yesterday! Hurry up for the shipping😊
Hey JTW, Sounds like someone is excited to get their new machine - congrats!
Marc
Looks like a solid machine. Reminds me of my ECM Mechanika V Slim.
Hi e, Thanks for the comment! It is similar in some ways except for the 3 level PID control on the 400.
Marc
Thanks for your detailed reviews! A cool touch steam wand is very importand in my opinion.
Hi t, you are welcome. I agree on the wand. Beyond less chance of burn they are easier to clean with less milk baking on and produce drier steam due to less internal condensation.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage i appreciate your reply! Best channel for espresso lovers on UA-cam :)
the new ecm mechanika VI slim has this 3 switch temp feature
Good to see you Marc, nice tan.
Hey Sam, Finally found the sun!
How accurate is the brew pressure gauge on the machine itself? After installing a pressure gauge on the group (without flow control) the pressure reading was higher than that on the machine, which gauge should I trust if the mounted gauge is correct my lowest OPV adjustment setting is 10 bars which seems too high.
Hi a, Thanks for the question. It's not unusual to see a difference in the machine gauge versus group mounted gauge - especially during an extraction. Understand the gauges are not lab grade calibrated so if one has a slight error one way and another the other way the error adds up. a difference of a bar or so is insignificant to extraction quality.
i am tossing up between this and the 500 pid. home user one cup a day sometimes 2
Hi Kim, For 2 cups a day I'm leaning Pro 400.
Marc
Thanks for the hint to the available temperature gauge for the _Flow Profil Valve E61_ - excellent idea!
Very nice review, these machines are really fun. I am very much enjoying my _ECM Synchronika_ for the first month by now. Isn't it awesome that both _profitec_ and _ECM_ are coming from the same company group?
Yes, this _profitec_ machine is nice, but I am afraid my _Synchronika_ is still teasing me more to be polished all day long… ;-)
Hey AGCS, You're welcome and thanks for your comment! The Synchronika is a classy machine!
Marc
Hi Marc, Great review like always and nice machine! Is there anything in the works to create a combo grouphead thermometer/manometer so one does not have to choose between either monitoring temperature or the flow control?
Hi Ryan, Thanks for the kind comment. A device like that would make a lot of sense! But, nothing I'm aware of at this point.
Marc
Does flicking to the high temperature once brewing has begun (and is underway) increase temperature during the shot? Also, my local retailers here say this IS a PID machine - a little confused if it is pressurestat or PID
Hi B, It is a PID machine there's a probe in the boiler monitoring temp, no pressurestat. Since there's a heat exchanger in the boiler pushing to high temp after a shot has started does not change the brew temp - not enough time for that to happen.
Marc
Mark which would you go with, the pp400 or the bezzera bz13?
Hi MWM, I'd go with the Pro 400 with flow control. But that doesn't mean you should. I like the Pro 400 for the flexibilty of having flow control. Trade off is a little less precision in brew temps and a longer initial heat up time. Also like the more visible dual gauge on the 400 but miss the shot timer of the BZ13. Hope that helps!
Marc
Would this machine be able to pull back-to-back cappuccini and be consistent?
Great Video thanks a lot 🙏
So nice of you - thanks for the comment!
Marc
Hi there, thanks for the great review! I was just wondering how long it takes the machine to heat up when you start it? As in how long do you have to wait from turning it on until you can make coffee?
I was wondering the same. Marc can you help us out on this info please?
@@Peter-od8gv My local coffee machine shop told me that it's similar to all the other machines with the E61 brewing group and should be around 15 mins.
I learned from another video saying it takes about 30 min for any E61 machines to warm up.
Hi Z, Thanks for the question. It's about 30 minutes until the group head temperature stabilizes. The boiler is at full temp much sooner but it takes longer to heat the mass of the group via the E61's thermosiphon. You can help things along by running blank shots with an empty portafilter in place and have reasonable temps in about 20 minutes. Many users of these this type of machine have an appropriately rated appliance timer or wifi timer to have the machine ready and waiting at specific times.
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks a lot!
What was the temperature stability throughout pulling a shot like compared to the Profitec pro 500? Do you have the highest and lowest temperatures from the scace readings? Thanks 😊
Hi h, The Pro 400 was very consistent. On the middle temperature position Scace reading was 201.8 at 8 seconds after pump on. Maximum temp of 202.4 at 17 seconds, minimum of 201.7 at 27 seconds. From 8 to 27 maximum variation = 0.7F. It's been 4-5 years since I tested a Pro 500. I don't have that level of detail for the 500 but as I recall it's similar.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Is a flow control usable in this? Since it’s got the automatic pre infusion for 5second unlike the rocket apartmento. Also does it alert you when the water is running low? Get this with flow control or get the rocket apartmento ? Thanks
Hey Mark I need some help in choosing the right espresso machine- I drink 2-3 cups espresso/ Americanos per day typically, don’t need milk, have a grinder already. Please recommend some options. Thanks
Hi SG, If you will never do milk a single boiler machine can serve you well and still do a milk drink should the need arise. My goto recommendation and best value in a machine grade entry-level espresso machine is the Gaggia Classic Pro: www.wholelattelove.com/products/gaggia-classic-pro-espresso-machine-in-cherry-red
If you might be doing higher-end specialty coffees like high-altitude single origins roasted lighter you might consider a higher level machine with better temperature control and flow control. The ECM Classkia is an excellent (and significantly more expensive) single boiler PID machine with E61 brew group. It's available with or without flow control. PID gives you precise control of brew temps. This machine has excellent 5/5 star owner reviews: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-classika-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control
Hope that helps!
Marc
What would be your choice between Profitec Pro 400, Rocket Appartamento and the Quickmill Rubino 0981 ?
Thanks for your help! :)
Pro 400
my profitec pro 400 drips water from basket and backflush hole, very slow drips but consistent, is this normal?
Hi s, thanks for the question. Some minor water dripping on heat up is not out of the ordinary. Continuous water dripping after heat up is not. If you purchased machine from us and need additional assistance please contact our tech support staff here: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us
I have the flow control installed on this machine and it will no longer thread all the way into the machine anymore. When tightened down all the way, many threads are still exposed on the flow control knob, and it is getting worse every time I unthread it to increase flow and then attempt to retighten it. Do you know what might be wrong and how I could fix it? Thank you so much for your amazing videos and comments!
Hi VT, Here's a video on cleaning calibration of the flow control device: ua-cam.com/video/ELIwD40tsrs/v-deo.html
Video covers full rebuild of E61 group. section regarding flow control begins at ~23 minutes in the video.
Marc
I have the Profitec 400 with Flow Control and was wondering what stock flow should be? The 1 1/4 turns setting is way over the 6.9g/s that I've seen shown on the flow control video for vibration pump machines.
Hi rh, When your FC is fully closed do you get no flow? If not, you will need to adjust so it does. Here's a video that shows how to do that: ua-cam.com/video/ELIwD40tsrs/v-deo.htmlsi=6cFBjl3zIiXc0sHl&t=1670
Stock flow rate on the 400 is 7-8g/s
Just got machine and love it...question when you use the pre-infusion function when do you start timing the shot? I always get a few grams 3-5 that drop after pre-infusion but before the pump restarts?
Hi OO, Thanks for sharing the love. I would time starting with the main extraction and ignore the pre-infusion time.
Marc
Hi Marc, thanks for the great videos. Is the Pro 400 the smallest e61-style machine with steam and hot water wands?
My wife would like the smallest machine available, but steam and hot water are a must.
Thanks again.
Hi MJ, You are welcome for the videos. At just under 9" wide the Pro 400 is the smallest width E61machine with individual steam and hot water wands I'm aware of.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Marc!
Hey Marc, what do you think about a comparison between the Pro 400, Pro 500 and ECM Mechanika V Slim? Which one would you prefer most ?
Hi Max, My choice is the latest version (mid 2022) Pro 500.
Marc
Can you add a PID if you want to for espresso brewing?
Hi JR, No specific setup for adding a PID. It's different than most non-PID HX machines in that it uses a temperature probe (like you'd have on a PID machine) in the boiler and not a pressure stat to read temperature.
Marc
Hey Marc! After a few weeks w/ this machine I disabled the pre-infusion since I"m using the flow control to experiment w/ varying profiles. Seems I get better extractions w/ no pre-infusion/pre-infusion off when using flow control or maybe I'm imagining things?
Hey greg! Using flow control gets you a lot more control than the auto pre-infusion so you're not imaging things! Some coffees like darker roasts and coffees a bit beyond prime freshness do better with no pre-infusion. For those, hit them hard at start of extraction then reduce flow rate as shot progresses to avoid/reduce bitter or stale flavors.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Right, thanks. I enjoy dark roasts so I do "hit 'em hard" in the beginning and taper off at the end. Also I'm timing my shots to get that 30 sec extraction which flow control excels at allowing you to do. Also I am NAILING the frothing now that I'm used to a professional frothing wand. Oh man...the microfoam you get from a machine like this is just stellar. Gotta limit myself to one cappuccino in the AM and one after dinner otherwise I'd be drinking a gallon of milk a day! Espresso shots, on the other hand? I'm wired all day long.
Hi Marc, for future reference, are the steam and hot water assemblies upgradable/exchangeable to a lever action type ones like the Synchronika? Thanks!
Hi Mic Y, Thanks for the question. Well everything can be hacked but no upgrade available or easy install of Snynchronika lever action valves on the Pro 400. It can be easily done on the Pro 700.
Marc
I have a Breville Dual Boiler which has performed admirably for 9 years but is going with my adult son who is moving out soon, as a moving gift. Narrowed down previous handful of machines to this or the Bezzera BZ13...attracted to the stability and build of this, but am wondering if the two lower preset temps are good enough. Have always used 200F with good results for the medium/dark roasts I generally get....would the lower temp be too low and the medium temp too high? Any easy tricks (flush, switch to med temp right before shot, etc) work or is actual med brew temp 'close enough'? Analysis paralysis!
Hi Sam, Lucky son - make sure he takes care of that BDB. Its had quite the run! For temps on the Pro 400. I'd try both the preset tending to use the lower for the dark roasts and the medium with with medium roasts. If you find medium temp is too much then you can always use it and do a short flush to drop temp a bit. The BZ13 does offer more precision in brew temps, quick heat up and lever operated valves should you prefer those. Personally, I prefer the look of the Pro 400 and the E61 group which is available with flow control if that's something you're interested in. Not sure this will cure your paralysis 😉
Marc
Hi Marc. Great Review. Does this have the same thermal stability as a PID system? So functioning like the Profitech Pro 500, minus the screen/shot timer but otherwise the same quality of shots and steam/water temps?
Hi k, Yes thermal stability is the same as the 400 uses a PID to control. The difference is the 3 non-adjustable temp presets on the Pro 400 vs continuously adjustable temps on the Pro 500.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc, in the review blog on your website, the reviewer says "Even though the Pro 400 isn’t equipped with PID temperature control, these temperature pre-sets show that you’re still getting a high level of temperature stability and reliability that will make it easy to get the same setting every time you brew." -- so, does it really have a PID or not?
@@a_gg from the reply above, it has PID, which means more stable temperature than pressure stat. PID does not always mean you can set whatever temp you want, just mean stability. So 400 has internal PID. That’s my understanding
Hello from the uk. 👋🏻Can’t choose between this, The appartmento or the ecm v slim. If you was to pick one. Which ? Thanks
Hi dj, I'd easily take the Pro 400. It has 3 level temperature control, shot timer, extended functions through PID display like cleaning and programmable power off. The other machines are pressure stat temperature controlled so nowhere near the consistency of the 400. Also, don't know prices in UK but Pro 400 cost less than the others in US.
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you for the reply. The 400 will looks fantastic in my kitchen later this week 👌🏻
Good morning, sorry, I have a question, is the steel or copper boiler better? thank you
Hi juan, I have no preference between copper or stainless steel. Copper was the traditional material used but in the last 10 years or so stainless steel is more common for boilers.
Marc
Hate the colored disclets, can they just be removed? Debating between this and the Rocket Apartamento, have seen the latter for as low as ~ $1400 not sure if the $200 more for Profitec Pro 400 is the right course of action between the two?
I had to decide between the Rocket and Pro 400. Ended up going with the 400 bc the quality seemed higher and I heard about some qc problems with Rocket. Plus you get the two brew temps (which i have not used one time). The only upgrade ive done so far is ECM bottomless portafilter. Its a great looking small-footprint machine and the coffee is really good. My previous machine was a Bezzera BZ13 from WLL. An excellent machine. I just wanted a different look.
Thank you for your comprehensive review, I really appreciate it. I have been researching like crazy trying to understand what mixture of water to put in my machine before I start using it for the first time to prevent limescale build up. It says in the user manual not to descale this machine yourself and it can only be performed by a dealer. Is that really my only option for maintenance on this machine? Its past the return window and now I really wish I bought something I could descale myself. I would appreciate any suggestions greatly.
Hi VT, You are welcome. Dealers put the "only by a dealer" line in manuals as their is a small risk of a piece of scale dislodging during descaling and plugging up something else in the water system. Then the consumer contacts the dealer and complains their machine is not working. In reality, you can descale the Pro 400 yourself. The risk of issue is higher in a dual boiler machine. As a machine using a heat-exchange boiler the risk is near zero in your Pro 400 unless the machine is very severely scaled. Here's a video showing how to descale a machine like the Pro 400: ua-cam.com/video/yEGfyJkWSqU/v-deo.html
Going forward I strongly suggest you treat water used in the machine to prevent scale from forming in the first place. I do not know how hard (mineral rich) your tap water is. If you know it's classed as hard then it's very important to treat your source water or descale the machine on regular basis. If you know it's classed as soft or moderately hard then there's likely not much (if any) scale in the machine but you should still either treat water or descale on a regular basis just to be sure.
Here are two water treatment options which when used as directed will prevent scale from forming in your machine. They eliminate possibility of scale formation by exchanging scale causing calcium ions in water with magnesium ions. You do want some minerals in the water to support good flavor and prevent corrosion which can occur if you try to use mineral free water like distilled or pure reverse osmosis water.
BWT Bestsave pad filters which drop in reservoir: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestsave-s-anti-scale-filter
BWT Penguin filter pitcher: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-penguin-2-7-l-water-pitcher
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Wow, thank you so much for the incredibly helpful response Marc! I had seen those special in-tank filters, but was not sure that it would be compatible with the Pro 400. To prevent scale I purchase the Third Wave Water packets to add to distilled water, which they claim is a ‘permanent hardness’ that doesn’t precipitate scale deposits inside of the machine at all. I’m hoping that is true, but I will try the filter you suggested if scaling is still occurring. I appreciate your help so greatly!
@@veggietables6974 You are welcome. I have some experience with dosing pure water with pre-packaged minerals. I do know it's $$ long-term. A few years back I did a video on creating your own additives for pure water using baking soda and Epsom salt: ua-cam.com/video/iHI7jC0sQZo/v-deo.html Not as convenient as prepackaged but very cost effective!
Profitec dont make it easy - this machine has everything except PID/shot timer that im looking for. But then there is the GO, which has the PID and faster warm up time, but costs 40% less. The only down side to the GO seems to be lack of flow control that comes with an E61 group (although the flow control addition seems to be hard to find in the UK so actually no difference), but its about 40% cheaper. For somebody that just makes 1 or 2 espressos at a time, im finding hard to look anywhere other than the GO, even though I like the E61 aesthetic. Am I missing something?
For me i will go with Go
The flow control is upgrade n cost u
It might squeeze out d last bit of d espresso profile taste
With 400 + flow control u might end up near $2k
While d Go have all u need to make quality espresso at $1k
Lastly as for me i did try espresso using flow control n without
I cant taste huge difference
And if u make latte or capucinno d milk will cover it
Do you have friends ? 😂
The main question is : What happens if you need 4-6 shots one after another ? Profitec GO or something similar with 1 liter less boiler from other competitors will not help you. So , e61 grup is the way instead two boilers.
Heck of a lot of machine for the money
Hey Ben, I agree!
Marc
Love your videos. Do you think the knobs to the other profitec machines would fit this?
Hi Av, The 400 has a threaded stem/nut which holds the knobs on. Knobs on the Pro 500 and 700 are retained by snap rings so I'm afraid it's a no.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage dang okay. Was hoping I could get some wooden ones on Etsy to take this already beautiful machine to the next level
Another question Marc, I’ve seen in Europe market they have black side panels , any idea if that would be an item I could order later? Same goes for wooden knobs?
Hi Andre, Not 100% certain on availability or timing of panel options in North America. I did speak with Profitec's CEO following the SCA show a couple of weeks ago and there may be some on the horizon. For wooden knobs, no options currently available.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage awesome thank you for sharing !
Are you able to mount a gauge on the group head if the unit has flow control installed?
Hi robert, Thanks for the question. Yes If purchased with flow control comes with group gauge as seen here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-400-espresso-machine-flow-control
And, at the moment flow control including the gauge is a free upgrade!
Marc
Hi Marc, so I’m using a puck screen with my portafilter and when I lock it into place I kinda have to jimmy it in and I notice the group head slightly moving as well, should I reduce my dose? After I pull the shot it’s easy to unlock. I was using 18 g before the puck screen and it locked in smooth like butter.
Yes, you may need to reduce dose if using a screen. Or use a larger filter basket so you have some more room.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Marc, ended up reducing dose to 17g and things are good! Love the machine
@@drewksidetour You're welcome! Thanks for sharing the love!
Marc
Any reviews of the new pro 800 coming up? That machine is stunning
Hey Mark, I did review the old Pro 800 some years ago. When I get my hands on the new version I will do a review!
Marc
Another question... Is the lever for brewing espresso the same as the other profitec machines? Incase I wanted to get a wooden one?
Hi A, Yes, E61 levers are interchangeable on Profitec machines.
Marc
How does it compare to ECM in the same price range
Hi M, Thanks for the question. So currently the ECM Classika is the same price as the Pro 400. Big difference is the Classika is a single boiler machine so you cannot brew and steam simultaneously. Classika is oriented to those who do not do a lot of milk drinks. Takes longer to make milk drinks on single boiler machines. But, the Classika does have very precise control of brew temps. On the Pro 400 you have PID but with 3 distinct temperature presets as discussed in the video. Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi Marc, the Profitec Pro 400 machine is now a little over a year old. Has it gotten any updates since launch I should be aware of, or do you know if a version with subtle improvements is in the makes like they did with the 500? Thanks!
Hi X, Thanks for the question. No updates or subtle improvements to date or in the works that I'm aware of. But, do have a look at the ECM Mechanika Slim VI: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-mechanika-vi-slim-espresso-machine-heritage-line
Very similar machine made by Profitec's sister company with more finishing details.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the reply! I think I'm going for the 400 :) has everything I'm looking for in a machine. Yes the drip tray could have been a little bit bigger, and unfortunately no shot timer, but for the price you are getting a lot of quality engineering. Always wanted a Profitec. I'm "upgrading" from a Brewtus IV, so going back from dual boiler to HX. Hopefully flushing won't be a big deal and I'll still get good temperature consistency, with the advantages of much better build quality, smaller profile, easier maintenance and quicker heat-up times :)
I need a quick heat up time espresso machine ...like 2 - 5 minutes max....Dual boiler....any suggestions???
Hi C, 2-5 minute heat up dual boiler does not exist. Suggestion is an appliance timer so machine can turn on in advance, heat up and be ready to use on your schedule. Use a WiFi connected timer and you can turn machine on/off from virtually anywhere. There are a couple of machies with built in timers like the ECM Mechanika Max: ua-cam.com/video/UfEysGSVEd8/v-deo.html
Marc
Hello, I've had the pro400 for a week and I have several questions that I can't find the answer to in any video. When starting the extraction at 1.5 Barr pressure in the group, the pump pressure only rises to 5 Barr. The coffee comes out without any foam like washed and acid at a temperature of 44C. The coffee is new and medium roasted, I have it at the medium temperature. Help to improve please!!
Hi Marc, this is definitely something many would like, basic simple features, but not super fancy. I assume since it’s e61, the heat up time is still over the 20 minute range? Also, the temperature control on this is pressure-stat?
I keep seeing HX machines with temperature control, but many say if you really want temperature control, you need a double boiler. Been eyeing the Silvia pro X, but with this machine, I may change my mind on that. 🤔
Hi Bill, Thanks for the comments! HX machines with PID temperature control are quite common and do a good job. But, temps do creep up a bit if machine is on and idle for extended periods. Easy to take care of that with a short flush. Dual boilers are more stable. Temperature control on the 400 does not use a pressure-stat. You can see the temperature probe here: ua-cam.com/video/0uC6iQoCWSI/v-deo.html It's the black wire at front top of boiler. I should have pointed that out in the video. Heat up time is in the 20+ minute range for full stability.
Marc
Just got my pro 400. Absolutely wonderful machine. I did have a question regarding the flow rate. As it came preinstalled with the flow control device, I’m curious to know what the stock flow rate on this machine is. Any help would be appreciated.
Awesome congrats! Stock flow rate is about 7-8g/s. Enjoy the machine.
Marc
Hi Marc, I’m having trouble texturing my milk and at times there’s a large burst of air or water that injects into the pitcher, which creates a lot of unwanted bubbles. Please help.
Hi Andre, Are you purging your wand prior to steaming? If not, you will get some extra water in the milk. Always purge the wand before and after steaming. For burst of air... when steaming you're always pushing steam/air into the milk. Controlling that is all about tip postion. In general it should be close to but just underneath the surface of the milk when steaming. Don't start the steam until wand is in this position and keep it under the surface until you shut the steam off. Here's an excellent video on steaming techniques: ua-cam.com/video/4PSCsv7kcKA/v-deo.html
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc, yes I ensure I purge the wand of any water sitting. It might be how the two holes are positioned and how I have the pitcher angled. Just few instances where a sudden big burst of air and excess bubbles with wand tip being submerged or at surface. I will keep practicing, I was just thinking maybe there’s possibly something off with the steam wand too.
IT'S POSSIBLE TO PUT ON THE SMALL COFFEE SHOP? 100CUPS PER DAY? ANYONE CAN GIVE FEEDBACK. THANK YOU.
Hi z, thanks for the question the Pro 400 is made for domestic/home use and not intended for commercial.
Marc
Will the steam/HW knobs from the mechanika 5/6 slim fit the pro 400?
Hi Kevin, yes, the knobs are interchangeable.
Marc
Geez it seems every home machine has really weak steaming pressure. Are there any that can get you milk rolling?
Hi adrian, Some standout steam power machines... Times listed to froth 5oz/150ml from fridge temp to 140F/60C
Bezzera Aria (13 seconds): www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-aria-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control-pure-steel
Bezzera BZ13 (16 seconds): www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-bz13-pm
Marc
What is the ideal brew pressure we should set 9 bar or 10 bar for pro 400?
Hi Paul, If setting using the machine's pressure gauge and backflush disc installed we recommend setting the OPV to produce 10 bar on the gauge. This static pressure reading produces ~9 bar in the group during an actual extraction if coffee is dialed in to proper grind size.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Dang I changed mine to 9 bar thinking it was a mistake when the machine came in. I’ll have to readjust back to 10 bar with disc
hey marc, if WLL designed a nicer looking thermometer it would sell like crazy. just a thought
Hey p, Thanks for the thought!
Marc
Any idea when these will be restocked? REALLY hoping to jump on the flow control deal! Thanks! :)
What is the difference between the 400, 500, 600, etc?
Hey ec,
400: HX boiler, vib pump, 3 temperature presets
500: HX boiler, vib pump, full range PID temperature control, sprung 1/4 turn valves
600: Compact, dual boiler, vib pump, PID
700: Dual boiler, full size, rotary pump, plumbable, PID, 1/4 turn sprung valves
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage im leaning towards the 500. Thanks so much!
Wow...it gives the Appartamento a slap...more features for about the same price point!
Hey Mark please recommend an espresso machine- 2-3 cups, no milk.
Hi SG, see my other reply to you.
Marc
I’ve had this machine for about two weeks now and started to experience diminished steam pressure. Pulled apart the steam wand and found torn up pieces of an o-ring clogging the steam wand. Contacted WLL and was faced with minimal help and a support team who made me feel stupid for asking to try and resolve this issue. Also I ordered the unit with flow control and it showed up without it - it was eventually sent to me but now I have to install it myself.
This machine is quite great except for these issues - would recommend it for the value it provides at this price point. Consider where you order it from though.
Hi Dominick, That's unfortunate and unusual. Sorry for your trouble. I'm reaching out to support team for background.
Profitec 400 or Lelit Mara X?
Hey Luna, They are very similar machines. Personally, I find the exterior finish quality and details a bit nicer on the Pro 400. Some may prefer the more commercial wire style drip tray and cup warming surface of the Mara X.
Marc
Hey Marc, when are you going to be getting in the new Profitec Go?
Hey Ice. Hope to post my review of the Profitec GO today!
Marc
Hi Marc, great vid! I really like the look of the pro400 but am also leaning towards the pro500. I’m in Australia so won’t get the updated version with the PID on the front of the machine. Outside of moving the pressure dials and PID location did the pro500 get any other upgrades? What would you pick out of the two? Thanks
Hi Alex, Pro 500 upgrades were the visible PID and gauge location. Slightly different style to the cup rail as well. Out of the 2 I'd pick the Pro 500.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi Marc, how about ECM Classika with PID and Profitec 400? They cost exactly the same. I've been debating between the two.
@@sciencescience9102 Hi there! If you'll be doing milk drinks regularly I'd go with the Pro 400 as you cannot brew and steam simultaneously on the Classika. If mostly espresso go with the Classika. Both are PID machines but the 400 has the 3 preset temps and the Classika can set any brew temp you like. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you so much for the reply!
Great video! So good that I got one from you guys with the flow control. I checked the flow rate per valve turn and after 1 full turn the flow rate stays exactly the same in every other turn. I repeated the test in triplicates per turn and I get the exact same results. Is there anything that you can recommend me to do?
Hi Richard, Thanks the question and your patronage! Here's a link to an article which has a graphs showing flow rates for vibration pump and rotary pump machines. Your Pro 400 has a vibration pump: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
As seen on the graph, on vibration pump machines once you are past 1 full turn flow rate increases from about 6.2g/s to 8g/s out to 1.75 turns. Then jumps to ~10g/s when moving from 1.75 to 2 full turns. The flow in g/s may vary by a gram per second or so depending on machine. One thing you can check is making sure when the flow control is fully closed you are getting no flow. if you get flow with the valve fully closed you may need to adjust calibration. Here's a video showing how to do that - it's very easy to do: ua-cam.com/video/Bxh1ik-orFA/v-deo.html
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the quick response Marc . I definitely have to calibrate, with the valve fully closed there is water coming out and with the valve at 1/4 turn I’m getting ~5.2 g/s and from 1 turn all the way to 2 valve turns I get 7.3 g/s (respectively per every 1/4 turn). Basically I have the same flow rate at 1 valve turn and 2 valve turns.
Hi, I'm loon to purchase my first and most likely onlh espresso machine. I think te best value to quality ratio is the profitec pro 300... But I love the look of the 400 a lot more. Could someone do a comparison of the two or a small list. I still think the pro 300 is better value... Thoughts?
Hi t, We do have this video covering the Pro 300: ua-cam.com/video/tQXm25pMXds/v-deo.html
Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison of the machines with current pricing: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NTk5ODc5NDgxMSw2ODI2NTQ3ODcxNzk4
Of note: The Pro 400 is currently priced lower - even for the version with flow control of the group!
Marc
It’s the portafilter aluminum or stainless?
Hi Dan, Definitely not aluminum! Appears to be stainless or chrome plated brass. I've reached out to Profitec for confirmation.
Marc
Sounds like Profitec's answer to Lelit's MaraX.
yeah exactly. The feature set of the 400 and MaraX are probably the perfect combo for most people. I like the idea of 3 temp settings, again for most people. Most folks won't ever adjust the brew pressure screw. A little bit of tinkering but nothing crazy. $100 more for the Mara, pro 400 arguably is more attractive looking.
Hey BF, Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Marc
It is, but it doesn't have the MaraX secret sauce - the second temperature probe in the brew loop.
@@davidfuller581 how does that read relative to temp at the puck?
@@JusBThankful it reads at the thermosiphon return, so effectively it measures group head temperature.
I’m torn between the Pro 400 and the Pro 500!
Hi Andre, Tough decision! Pro 500 has more precision in control of brew temp and a higher price.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage appreciate the reply Marc! One things for sure, I’ll be buying from you guys!
@@drewksidetour My pleasure - appreciate your patronage! If you have more questions use a new comment as opposed to replying in a thread. I do my best to answer new comments within 1 business day. Often takes awhile to reply to those in threads.
Marc
Who lets this 80s radio guy do UA-cam vids?
Profitec Pro 400 with flow control or Rancilio Silvia Pro X? So hard to decide 😂😂
Hi Naqib, Tough decisions! Flow control opens up very useful brewing techniques. Super useful if you're likely to use relatively fresh from roast specialty coffees. You give up a little without the degree by degree precision of brew temps on the Pro X but in most cases flow control is more impactful.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you for the reply!
I’m sorry but the color of the knobs is not ok. Plain black please.
what dose it teste like????????????????????
COnsidering this upgrade from my breville duo temp pro that i have had for years now
Hi JN, Think you'll appreciate the machine quality build of the Pro 400 vs the appliance grade Breville!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage haha! That's exactly what it feels like. Upgrading to a beast machine vs an appliance
Are pastels the new thing in espresso now?
I think we should bring back avacodo and burnt orange to go with 70's inflation and gas prices.
and shag carpets!
Marc
Hey Marc, is a plain black disc included, or perhaps it is basic black under the colored disc?
Bruh, make a drink.
Sure Ron
Thank you again for yet another amazing review. I would have a little question: I have at home the coffee grinder KitchenAid Artisan mod KITCHENAID-IKCG0702ER. Do you think this would be good enough to obtain a good coffee with a prosumer coffee machine? thanks a lot! Luc
Hi Luc, You can use that grinder but results are likely to be subpar and inconsistent. It does not have the precise grind size control needed and probably inconsistent grind particle size which cause under and over-extraction in the same shot.
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you! Upgrade on its way then :)
Hey Marc, how do you assess the recovery time between shots? Does the thermosyphon restrictor make it too slow? Thanks!
Hi PU, Thanks for the question. The Pro 400 recovery is on par with other HX boiler machines. It's not so much the flow restrictor affecting recovery as the heating time of new cooler water coming into the HX section of the boiler. Try to pull multiple rapid fire back to back shots on most any HX machine and brew temp will creep lower the more and faster you do them. People often ask about recovery time in relation to commercial use. Be advised that's not what this machine is intended for. It's a domestic/home use machine. It should recover sufficiently by the time you've prepped for next drink in home use.
Marc