In the mid-1980s I trained as a sound engineer with the BBC (at the Engineering Training Centre at Wood Norton in Evesham, and Television Centre on Wood Lane, London). I love Danny’s videos and passion but I’m not going to lie, I haven’t got a clue what Danny is talking about half of the time! I worked every day with Rogers LS5/9s, LS5/8s (and their matching Quad amps), LS3/5s, ATC monitors, and the finest quality recording and broadcast sound desks and signal chains in the UK. I was also introduced to a couple of useful psychoacoustic concepts that render 90% of audiophile lore redundant: 1. Buy the speakers that YOU like the sound of. Each of us has a unique head related transfer function. We all hear things differently. The variance between us can be significant. So don’t listen to what others say - trust your ears when listening to your own favourite music. In music production and broadcast sound, we’re always aiming for a mid-point sound balance that won’t offend anyone. How you experience that will vary. 2. Your brain is not your friend when listening to those instruments which you already have a “library” of previous listenings. I have some top quality acoustic guitars. I know what they sound like when played live. Even if I listen to a recording of an acoustic guitar on a crummy system, my brain rejects the crummy sound and replaces it (in real time) with what I’m expecting to hear. So if you’re already familiar with what a great recording sounds like, your brain will automatically adjust mediocre sound without you having to do a lot of work - unless you concentrate. But why would you do that? A $500 set up today will reveal all of the flaws in recordings made before the year 2000. And then there’s the somewhat uncomfortable realisation when you’re mic-ing up a legendary rock band and preparing to capture their live performance on a Neve sound desk and 2” tape that their gear is the biggest heap of crap you’ve ever seen! Even their records can be horribly recorded, mixed and mastered. And if you’re listening on vinyl, you’re relying on a manufacturing process with often terrible QC. Very often the record libraries at Maida Vale and Ealing had to grade brand new records at low values as they were entered into the inventory! They were often terrible! The whole exercise is one of artifice. If you want to reproduce live sound in your listening room out of an array of transducers from a recording of any media, you can’t. Old recordings are full of unwanted and obvious artefacts of the recording process, and modern sound will have been compressed/expanded/equalised and processed many times before it reaches your system. Just find speakers you like, a good quality 44.1KHz Red Book standard digital source, a clean amp with plenty of power (at least 3dB headroom on your speakers RMS or Continuous power handling rating) and enjoy what it was that got the band and the original producers so excited they wanted to make a record - the passion and artistry of the musicians and composers.
He is talking about selling overpriced components that cost pence to make in China with types like hims mark ups.. U can buy replicas of these speaker 394gbp from china
What would be good is to hear your listening opinion on the speakers before you take them apart and then your thoughts after the tear down and see if they match.
@ paul lazarro . The same way you use a tape measure to see how big something is or weighing scales to check somethings weight or a light meter to check brightness . A huge dip or peak is visible on a graph so is the distortion and the the resonances and the dispersion characteristics and the time alignment of the drivers . Measurements are a useful tool . Hope this helps
There's plenty of subjective reviews of the speakers out there. GR is great as a point of reference along with other reviewers. I check with a few points of view since I can't just test everything at home. No single reviewer has everything sorted out.
Danny, I think what would add a lot of value to your speaker break-down videos would be the inclusion of actual listening impressions before and after any upgrades you have made. Seeing the measurement graphs tell me nothing about how a speaker actually sounds with music. The before and after graphs are interesting and all, but they don't tell the whole story. I know that the better crossover parts should improve the sound; however, what exactly is changing to the bass, mids, and treble while listening to a specific piece of music. Using your first rate listening room to provide your subjective before and after impressions would help the layman grasp the value of your speaker upgrade kits and enable a more educated buying decision.
UA-cam is full of subjective impressions that have more to do with one's personal setup, bias, and expectations going into a listening session than anything else. I really appreciate the on/off axis measurements before and after tweaking. That empirical information. Unless a reviewer is doing a blind review in which they are unaware of what speakers they are hearing. That would actually be useful, but is hard to pull off given that most are reviewing speakers being sent to them specifically for their review, setup by them in their own studio, and arranged and agreed to before they are ever shipped to them.
Replacement of a few parts in the woofer crossover will not change the sound by much. I bet most people won’t hear the difference. But what makes the difference are the extremely good cabinet, the 12th generation co-axial driver, and the very experienced team at Kef, that has all the professional equipment that’s needed to create one of the best selling monitors of this generation, much better than their legendary LS3/5a
That's what noticed about the vocals sound of this speaker. It's slightly veiled and muffled. Completely different from my Sonus Faber speakers which are lovely with vocals. Now I know the culprit. Thanks for sharing that information with us. Good job.
Hello from Switzerland. Thank you for your infos. I decided to buy them along with Quad Artera Play for my little room (20 m2) connected with in akustik cables and I am very happy. For sure there are other speakers and also better but I arrived at one point where I stopped further comparisons. I like how they look and how they sound. For me it's top. I listen to classics, jazz, and singer & songwriter and I enjoy it. Enjoy your music too and stay healthy.
"It’s not too bad to begin with" Wow. You can tell this guy has his own products to sell. I have these speakers, they replaced some PMCs that cost twice as much and they walk over them. They have a relatively flat frequency response, and fantastic imaging. Looking at the build, the boxes are heavily braced and filled with padding. The build quality is high, with a very nice matt paint finish. The performance is high.
You might think the performance is high if comparing them to older PMC's. If you comparing them to any of our kits though you realize real quickly that they are far from high quality. Our little X-LS Encore and X-Bravo models will eat them up in all areas.
@@dannyrichie9743 Then you are in disagreement with countless reviewers, and measurements. I have PMC twenty.21, which in my opinion are massively overrated, and they have an awful frequency response. I’ve heard the twenty5.21i too, it’s not good, just my subjective opinion, but I bet it measures poorly. To be fair your speakers do have a much better frequency response than many if not most speakers. I’m shocked at how the likes of B&W produce speakers that are all over the place. I have no idea why so many makers voice their speakers as they do, it’s weird. However, measurements of the Kef LS50 Meta contradict your assertions. And I bet you buy in your drivers, unlike Kef who design their own. I am sure your gear is very nice, I’m not saying otherwise. And probably excellent value in kit form.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ Yes, I disagree with any reviewer that thinks these are great. They are mediocre at best. The crossover parts are fair to poor. The woofer has an iron core inductors and electrolytic caps. That stuff is budget level garbage. We also do design our own drivers, and after having a lot of Kef drivers in house, I am not impressed. I hate the cone material too. It gives them a very vailed sound.
@@dannyrichie9743 what you mean by hating the cone material, the way its is dampened? Aluminum can sound very bad if dampened the wrong way, but aluminum if done right is one of the best material for cones and tweeters. Not that I like what KEF is doing, but I would choose a good aluminum woofer like the Dayton Audio Reference line over a poorly designed carbon fiber inverted dome or glass fiber cone membrane woofer any day of the year! It is true that paper have those "halftones",, but that is not in the signal, it's just the paper response. I agree with you that these KEFs are really poor. And for the price hike into the KEF Reference, I could build 10 times better speakers with 10 times better drivers in a 3 way fashion. Of course, I would go into DSP crossovers for them. Acoustic Elegance woofer comes to mind, BlieSMa 75mm textreme dome midrange comes to mind and the Satori Textreme tweeters. And this are top performers that can be had for 3k just the drivers. There is also the option of Purifi drivers, I would choose their aluminum cones because I really like how aluminum sounds over any paper cones, if the breakup is high enough so I can cross over in such a fashion that is 40-50db down at breakup point, which Purifi are.
LS50 was my gateway drug to the audiophile world. After having gone through many twists and turns with other brands and mixing and matching many different components and cables, I’ve finally landed on KEF Reference 1 (+REL S510’s) as being the speaker that checks all of the boxes for me. I’m still very fond of the LS50’s and own 3 pair including the newer Meta. Great speakers for the price as long as you find the right component match.
@@martingritsch2340 depends on what sound signature (warm vs neutral) and features you prefer but the best matches that I have found are Denon PMA-1600NE, Denon PMA-A110 (excellent), Cambridge EVO-150, and Gold Note IS-1000 (excellent). All of these have some form of tone controls which I prefer to dial in the bass and lower midrange. All of my KEF speakers including Ref 5’s require subs (preferably REL) to maximize enjoyment in my experience. I love clean, tight, musical bass down to 20hz but I know a lot of people are happy without subs. Honorable mentions for Hegel H90, H190 and Arcam SA30 and AVR30 as well. The Arcams really sing with external DACs like the PS Audio DirectStream.
@@martingritsch2340 I've not owned these or the original LS-50s ... however, by most accounts, it truly benefits from high quality high power amplification.
Interesting ... Main reasons for the "listener fatigue" are: * Too bright sound. * Room reverb. Since the speaker is measuring pretty good, the only reason for the former is other equipment characteristics or settings. As for the room, if sitting closer (really near field) helps, it is the problem that can be addressed in many ways. I own LS50 Meta since they ware released (over 18 months). And I love them for many reasons. They are in use for many hours almost every day. For me, the main trick to have great sounding system without overspending is to have a pair of decent subs. This is even more true for ppl like me having home theater and music in one package. The subs dramatically reduce the requirement for the amp. They also leave the speaker to focus on the job of fine details. I had the opportunity to evaluate this theory against few times more expensive "true audiophile" setups and it proved to be correct. Not to mention that having subs makes speakers placement easier.
My experience is totally different than yours, I didn’t like the LS50s (original model) and having more than one sub would be a nightmare to me Everyone has different ears I guess
@@sccanj Liking is something subjective :) LS50 Meta are (objectively) great speakers for the price and can do very well on their own given appropriate room size, amp and room correction/treatment. But I totally understand why some people consider them (subjectively). A pair of subs is not a requirement. But a single decent 8-10" sub will do wonders to any setup. 2 are just marginally better. Mostly at distribution of the lows across the room.
Just watched this again. My original LS50s are in a closet and periodically I pull them out them out and listen to them. As Danny noted in the review, they have some clarity issues (at least to my ears) so I go back to my 1st "home-built" X-LS speakers.
Your comments about this speaker match my impressions. Unfortunately, there isn’t a single review out there that mentions the vocals sounding slightly veiled and laid back but that’s exactly what I’m hearing.
@@wicomms The Wireless 2 has separate amplifiers for the woofer and tweeter that are designed to get the most out of them. It also has a lot of digital signal processing, such as phase correction, that is able to enhance the sound by having the drivers work better together.
If he finds the sound fatigueing for long periods, the issue may be the upper mid hump. The easy suggestion there is to listen off axis where that hump flattens out. It will still sound a little dark due to the continuous slope to the treble, but it will reduce the fatigueing nature. Tone controls might be able to flatten the response depending on the curve of the tone control. Also, the fatigue may come from a room acoustic issue.
I sold mine for that very reason J. Listen to music for around 8 hours a day when I'm home. The KEFS got worse as the day went on. Room acoustics should not have been a problem as I have a Lyngdorf amp with Room Perfect. Purchased a pair of JBL L82 Classics and they are perfect. Less harsh, more low end due to larger drivers. The soundstage isn't as wide as the KEFs but I can take that as they aren't fatiguing at all. Maybe as I listen to old soul and reggae on vinyl a lot is the reason why the JBLs are better.
@@stephenjon3502 yeah, jbl didn't design the L-82's for soundstaging. They built them for tone, texture & dynamics. But don't think that room perfect will fix room acoustic issues. While it can help, it won't completely undo bad acoustics. Physics can't be fooled. God created physics. He is not going to suspend physics because you bought a fancy digital processor. As for me, I can't listen to digital for very long before the digital hash splits my brain in two. Going to high resolution helps but then the fine details and lack of level gradations keep it from sounding real for me. Glad to hear you found a better solution in the L-82s. I had a boss that had an original set if L-82s. Glad jbl is keeping the heritage going.
There is a 2R7 series resistor in the tweeter x over in my Metas! Both the large value electrolytic caps are in shunt on the woofer circuit so forgivable for the price. Yes I agree though, super difficult to upgrade without going to an external crossover
@@dannyrichie9743 The tweeter resistor is hidden behind the series cap. If you don't take the board out you won't see it I took mine out and traced the circuit. It is exactly as the KEF white paper says. 3rd order with a notch on the woofer, so the caps are in shunt, not series.
@@simondart1481 If only the original boards could be easily removed.... Those caps in shunt are still directly in the signal path to that woofer. What you hear passes right through them.
Great assessment as always. I would caution that manufacturer part choices are not only based on budget constraints but also driver synergy and balance. Simply replacing an R, L or C of the same value with a better part may not yield the same sonic signature and balance that was intended by the manufacturer.
The LS50 comes with port plugs. One is a donut and would help with port resonance without hurting bass response much. I had the previous gen LS50 and didn’t find it especially fatiguing.
You can find information how to tweak the KEF LS50 (no Meta) when searching for "KEF LS50 Tonfeile Pimp" and "Pimp my KEF LS50" (all in German). It provides information how to open the cabinet by removing the front baffle via 4 screws from the back (may be different on the Meta version?), a suggestion for an alternative bass driver crossover and some nice pictures showing the build and parts quality. I recently shortly listened to the LS50 Meta and was not 100% satisfied, especially cabinet vibrations where a little bit disappointing to me, maybe it is because the front baffle seems not be screwed instead of glued to the cabinet.
Sometimes, the fatigue comes from too high listening level, trying to get some more bass. I'd suggest a midbass module or a sub for a more pleasurable experience.
"A flat in-room target response is clearly not the optimal target curve for room equalization. The preferred room corrections have a target response that has a smooth downward slope with increasing frequency. This tells us that listeners prefer a certain amount of natural room gain. Removing the room gain, makes the reproduced music sound unnatural, and too thin, according to these listeners. This also makes perfect sense since the recording was likely mixed in room where the room gain was also not removed; therefore, to remove it from the consumers' listening room would destroy spectral balance of the music as intended by the artist." That’s from Sean Olive’s blog. People prefer a downward slope in room for a number of reasons. This doesn’t mean all people, of course.
Agreed ... even further, I'd mate these with a full tilt dipole bass system AND a monopole subwoofer below. Nothing like dipole bass/midbass, and the manner in which it resolves LF... just physics.
Thats why you see so many of the older version of this speaker for sale, they are to bright! They sound fantastic at first listen like many of today's speakers. They have elevated highs and mids.
Hi Ray, I am still running my original KEF 104/2 with a PS Audio Sprout. They still sound wonderful. I have been thinking of new speakers, but not sure if newer is better. What do you find better with your new setup? Thanks
My roommate had a pair of KEF top of their line speakers back in the mid80’s. Ran them with the Adcom GFA 555 and matching preamp. They sounded good, really good, but I was in a love affair with my Dahlquist at the time (would stay there until they were stolen). I was just glad we lived in a big townhouse with a floor between us when listening at the same time .
Extremely high frequencies are not able to be interpreted by the human ear but that doesn’t mean we’re unaware of them. I knew a bloke about 30 or 40 years ago who monitored emissions at factories. One place he went to had a bunch of people who were getting constant headaches. He measured a signal at about 45 kHz at _in excess of 160 dB!_ It would not surprise me at all that very high frequency sounds have an effect we are not aware of. I can only imagine what that factory noise was doing to the local dog population!
Why not just put in a smaller capacitor in the 2. order highpass filter just to lower the 2.5db peak there? It would absolutely make it sound less sharp and direct, espesially when the music is turned up. Its also hot off axis in the same area so 1-1.5db would actually make it more perfect.
@@impuls60 that's going to cause more issues than it solves... It's going to affect the crossover point, leaving a dip. And likely wont do enough to tame the response in those areas. It's not really "humped up" so much as the top end rolling off as you get further off-axis which is normal for any coaxial speaker.
That ultrasonic ringing can create audible IM distortion difference tones in the top octave. For example, a 10 KHz tone interacts with a 22 KHz resonance to produce a 12 KHz tone.
KEF speakers require 50-100 hours to break in, it’s normal for these to be ‘bright and tight’ until then. Fatiguing? Never… perhaps the wrong amp? They have invested millions in R&D, as an engineer I know anything components and speakers or anything for that matter are designed to meet a price point in the marketplace….These are very highly regarded, our customers love them.
Room treatment and speaker placement is the issue. Even with a "bright" amp, you can make the LS50M much more warm sounding by doing a bit of acoustic treatment and placing speakers more off-axis.
well that 50 -100 hours are needed to get familiarized to the new signature sound... lol 4:54 nice chinese caps, that`s what im thinking the voice area is really compromised!! i hate that speakers
@@camelazo Yeah, I can't hear any difference what comes to break in (mostly just getting used to new speaker sound). I still can't understand how someone can hate this speaker (insane build quality, good overall performance, measures well, etc.) I understand if someone hates overly bright speakers that are a pain to listen to, but these even measure well in most of the test I have seen. Pair LS50M with sub(s) and you have a solid speaker system for a small to medium size rooms. There are better speakers, for sure, but I find it hard to hate if speakers are optimally placed with good room acoustics.
Initially I enjoyed Danny dissections. Now not much. I would highly recommend instead of finding faults with every speaker and then recommending his business as the fix , he could do a real service by recommending speakers that are made well. His videos are at their core advertisements. Now very boring. Always cheesy, ferrous conductors, bad caps, etc. Same themes, different speakers, each and every time.
@@johnsmith-i5j7iThey’re building to a price point. What product is perfect, or doesn’t make compromises The only speakers that aren’t- often in ways most reviewers barely scratch the surface eg distortion at different SPLs, harmonic distortion - and IMD … are likely to cost north of $5000
I am certainly no expert but I agree with Barney from about 3 hrs ago - 5 inch 'bass' isn't gonna get it done, regardless the company. they are designed to be used with a Sub , which I would think would clean up the low mids IF the Sub and especially Xover is good. Note, I have Metas, Outlaw receiver, Def tech Sub.....Many might say that's not even 'Audiophile'.....
The cap on the tweeter is a little too big. Lower it 1-2uf and it will bring that hump at 4-6k hz down. Then, a 15 deg off axis listening position should be recommended imo.
I've compared these directly to the Totem Sky monitors, and the Totem's were the clear winner for lacking all the flaws you said come with electrolytic caps and cheaper parts, etc. They're decent for their price, but a few hundred more gets you more transparency, soundstage, and low level detail on account of the better parts in the Totems. The one thing these do better, is the complete lack of box colorations. These cabinets are inert as I've ever heard. Heard on their own though, you'd think these were pretty darn good. They're dynamically a bit restricted for a woofer of this size, on account of part of the cone area being used for the tweeter, but they still throw a good size soundstage, so they don't sound terribly small.
Having watched the video Danny didn't really have anything negative to say about these? Build/frequency/spectral all seems very good/flat/clean but would he recommend them, I doubt it, you should by his DIY speakers with off the shelf drivers because it's all about the crossover😉😉
@@dannyrichie9743 apologies to you but i though I see in one of your videos that you purchased a load of drivers on a buyout which doesn't sound like custom drivers to me but if they are your own designed and spec custom drivers then ok.
@@ohmygodwhatareyoudoing4929 We did buy some drivers from AV123 when they went out of business. We made a little kit out of them and gave them away for the cost of the parts: ua-cam.com/video/5HhYRlbGyfU/v-deo.html It was a great way to bring new customers to DIY.
Did Danny ever address the customer's original complaint about the speaker causing listening fatigue ? Obviously, in this case a flat response is not what the customer wanted to hear.
The owner complaint that the speakers are fatiguing. I listened to Danny but I don't think he really addressed this 'issue'. Danny mentions that it's a little veiled and the treble is rolled-off but nothing points towards a fatiguing speaker. Did I miss something?
I've been a pedophile going on 15 years now. What you have to understand is that when it comes to audio, every little component adds to the overall sound of your stereo system.
To the owner, have you tried aiming them so their center points cross over a bit in front of the listening position? This technique is sometimes recommended for coaxial drivers to make them feel less ‘beamy’.
Why is it that speaker manufacturers reveal so little about their crossover designs? Seems like there's a golden opportunity for a confident speaker designer to go full open-kimono and show their customers every single design decision, every part, and the manufacturing process, that goes into building a particular speaker model. Along with publishing all the measurements - in anechoic and non-anechoic settings. I believe that approach would appeal to broad range of people who care about more than just great aesthetics. Also, with fewer and fewer audio shops available, it would help with making a purchase without actually hearing the product first. Many of us rely on reviews to make audio purchase decisions, and having the design decisions, measurements, and parts list - would make those reviews more valuable to a person like me, who does not have easy access to a full range audio shop. I appreciate these videos, because Danny digs into the details like no one else I've seen. And he exposes just how little information manufacturers actually reveal about their products. Sure, we all want a set of speakers that look great, but I also want to know exactly what went into it, and why. And I don't think I'm the only one.
There are only a handful of people that care about those sorts of things and even then you can find all the details online. Driver/speaker designs have been detailed with 3D models and you can find all the small details nowadays. I personally did watch two really long presentations by Kef and how they designed every part. I can understand if there are problems with other manufacturers but Kef seems to be open with everything. Also, with online stores, you can at least test the gear and return it if you don't like the sound. All of my speakers did sound way different in the store than in my listening space. It's always nice to test speakers before buying but everything sounds different depending on the room. This is why reviewers have all sorts of takes when using the same speaker.
@@audiophil5042 I agree that room acoustics make a huge diff. I have a neighbor who built a pool table room in his basement. All hard surfaces with a concrete floor. He installed an expensive audio system and 4 high-quality speakers, but the room reflections were so bad, it was painful to listen to anything above very low-volume. But I'm pretty sure those same speakers would sound great in my living room - which is full of soft surfaces. Still, I wish manufacturers would do more to reveal their speaker designs - particularly their crossover designs, which have enormous potential for coloring the sound.
@@mxbishop Well, manufacturers only care about selling higher-end gear and offer different price points. Spend more and get better quality/output. It would be a negative business decision to offer an easy way to make modifications. Most audio gear has still great ways to improve things and is semi-easy to repair compared to other modern hardware companies (Apple, Tesla, etc.) All it takes is one chip inside the gear that disables every modification. The future is not looking bright so I'm happy that consumers have now at least ways to improve speakers. We can just support the brands that are doing a good job. I avoid buying products that become e-waste because of the company's anti-repair design.
The sound of the Kef’s are a bit more depending on a good amp than some other speakers. The Meta’s are better sounding than the first generation LS50. Those were also very good, but a bit fatiguing with some not so good recorded songs. The Meta’s are great in a smaller room and a sub is necessary for the low frequencies beneath 60 Hz. But please use a good amp like Hegel, Arcam, Naim, Roksan etc. These speakers are just as I expected. Good measurements, very good cabinet, overall good crossover, excellent sound for the size, imho best in this price class. It’s a definitely a killer, this Kef is a world wide succes. But no word about the soundstage of these speakers. If you place them correctly in the room, on good stands, these speakers are sounding incredible, sound fills the room without the idea that it’s coming out of the cabinets. That’s why so many people like them so much.
I would say that the LS50M sounds good even when using a low-end amp but really shines with high-end gear. Definitely needs a sub but never sounded bad even with a cheap amp with enough power. I have been testing even with multiple $200 - $600 amps and never had a bad experience with my listening space with good room treatment. It's a solid speaker for small to medium-size rooms if you like a clean detailed sounding speaker. If it causes fatigue then the room needs some acoustic treatment. I did fix the rear port "boomy" sound issue with nice DIY 50/50 diffuser/absorber panels behind the speakers. That small change had an insane impact on the overall performance, depth, and soundstage. Definitely way better results than using port plugs.
I just got a pair. Only listened for 30-50 hours so far... Using with sub (as I do with all my speakers). Sound quality is fine, but what I like is that I can be anywhere - even laying down in the floor - and the sound stage is decent. Very useful when you do not have the perfect seating position in your room!
For the price I couldn't find a better sounding, or looking speaker than the LS50, because there isn't any. I have owned quite a few different speakers, somewhere around 50 or so. I also use to build my own speakers, and although they were quite good, with high quality parts, inert cabinets, and exotic wood veneers, I couldn't compete. Fin. Thanks KEF!?! lol
If you build your own speakers there are several better in diy. Madisound has a few scan speak kits that would probably compete with Wilson audio. I happen to have a bookshelf that would compete with the b&w 802s. Not to put you down but the kefs fall apart when you play anything by 2 cellos. Anything with warmth like cellos sounds horrid on those.
Yes there are, plenty actually. You sound like a KEF fanboy. A Dali Opticon 1 MK2 sounds better in almost every way, except bass. The Opticon 2 will give you better bass. I had the first gen LS50 for two years so I know what I am talking about
I got a pair of these and the biggest problem I had was the bass, just too much and overwhelming I had to plug the ports to get them to sound ok in my room. They’re solidly built though. I sold them though and bought the real thing, LS3/5a.
@@justinparkman3585 atc’s are awesome speakers. Very accurate and revealing however I have since sold mine and have gone the diy route. Far better performance for the money spent.
I have LS50 meta on Kef stands powered by a Bluesound Powernode 2021 so a relatively cheap system and I love the sound they make. The clarity and soundstage. I think this video starts with the premise there is something not good about them lets find out what it is. I couldn't care less that's there's a component in their that is not , in his opinion optimal. Perhaps Kef chose that component specifically for it characteristics. I am interested in what my ears tell me and not his graphs. There was no opinion on their performance relative to other speakers at that price point. No discussion about what sort of music they are best for. Just a person taking the back off and saying they are built well but eureka here is the culprit , perhaps or perhaps not. To get better sound you will have to spend more , possibly a lot more. No mention of the guy complaining what they were paired to or what music he listens to. It must be the fault of the speakers.
@@bjs7442 My word is credible. Just have a look at those crossover parts in the LS-50 and then compare it to what we offer in our kits. Our drivers sound a lot better as well. It is really not even a comparison.
@@dannyrichie9743 When I buy speakers I try them with my system. When the speaker is a kit I would need to know from someone other than yourself that I am getting excellent speakers suitable for my system. I am not doubting your word but you have a conflict of interest. I see Kefs advertising for example and want an independent expert view to help my decision.
@@bjs7442 Visit our forum at the Audio Circle to get feedback from our customers. Still, you are asking an answer to an obvious question. It is about like someone asking me, how does a Corvette (our speaker) compare to a Smart Car (cheaply produced mass marketed speaker). I own actually own one of each of them and know them quite well, but then they don't want to take my word for it because I might be biased, even though it is not even a comparison.
When he soon says something to the effect of 'I've measured the Q100 and Q150, same driver', that tells me right away that he doesn't know what he's talking about. They may look to be similar drivers, but I know that all 3 speakers have different driver builds in addition to the cabinets and crossover networks.
First review ive seen which actually addresses my disappointment with the sound of these (based on so many high praised reviews). I thought maybe I had set them up wrong or wasnt hearing them right. Definitely rolled off on the top and that muffled vocal, was the perfect description! Nailed it.
Great video! I love seeing the parts used inside of the speakers - it tells you so much about the passion of the manufacturer or if they are just using cheapest glue and cable-binders to fix the parts.
if you want to work on a awsome nugget, try get a KEF ACE 9000 center L/R. / its from the earlye 2005s, such a unique HT speaker, i had a 3 front they was awesome, very much. if i remeber correct it had. a active carbonfiber pod inside something something. big sound from a thin speaker. and used the Q series top range units. /
Would love to see a tear down of Wharfedale Linton’s since a lot of objectivists/measurement focused reviews are praising them. EDIT: I see you already did! I love this channel.
LS50 sounds fantastic, more then the sum of thier parts, mainly due to that "tank" of a cabinet. They have a fantastic top end and great uncoloured vocal clarity. What do you suggest as a better monitor speaker for up to £2000 for example?
There are a few you tube videos out on the Technics SB- C700. Seems impressive from what you can take from the compressed audio. Not easy to find though!
The SB-C700 is very impressive. Crazy holographic imaging of all the instruments. Snappy fast and tonally natural midrange. Sweet highs, deep bass. Everything one could want
Contradicción completa. Excelente medición, pero , se deduce mal sonidos por los capacitores de bajos?? Confío en Danny por su rigurosidad, y porque obliga a la industria a mejorar sus estándares, pero creo falta el aspecto subjetivo de la audición: como suena?
Youd be surprised. I have one of our high end kits with an external crossover. One pair of crossover's i built uses high-quality parts, the other uses some of the cheapest parts I could find on Parts-Express. On par with the quality seen in the Metas. They measure identically, but sound nothing alike.. the cheap crossovers sounds dull and congested at best. The reason we dont do listening tests is because customers often only send us a single speaker to save on shipping costs. We also don't install the upgrades to be able to do before/after testing.
I found my Kef Q100 had a dip at 105Hz, have not compared to my Q150 yet but that would be interesting. Now have Kef R3. No more dip at 105Hz so I think could be due to the crossover/ updated driver/ shadow flair but WOW, KEF R3 is a Fantastic speaker with amazing clarity, dynamics and superb bass extension. high frequencies do drop off but easily boosted. I would very highly recommend Kef R3s to anyone using nearfield (need at least 1.5 to 2metres in front of speakers to hear bass) or for any room exceeding 10 square metres.
Hello, The shunting caps in the woofer circuit being electrolytic should not affect the sound , are you saying poly caps there would make a difference ..?? Regards
KEF, like B&W and others, expect you to buy their ultra flagship models if you want the BEST crossover networks WiTHOUT CHEESE. You'd have to buy the KEF BLADE at $30,000 plus to get a high-quality crossover network that matches the quality of Danny's, GR Research/NX Series speakers!
The LS50 is remarkable, but it requires a few things: careful equipment matching, needs to be placed at least three feet away from the walls, with little to no toe in, and 24 inch stands.
Increase clarity?? In my experience, the LS50 Meta is one of if not the clearest speaker I’ve heard in 35 years. I also think it images and disappears as well in any speaker I’ve heard under $5k. I prefer the fuller sound of the Heritage Special, but the metas excel in clarity and translucence.
Are you saying that all reviewers who rave about these speakers, including Stereophile who rated them Class A and Steve Gutenberg who rate them as one of his top speakers ever, haven’t listened to enough speakers, or perhaps they don’t know what they are talking about?? I’ve owned around 20 speakers and I’ve auditioned more than a hundred, and these are the best near-field monitors I’ve heard under $5K. I agree with Stereophile and other reviewers.
I went to the hifi shop to compare the Lintons with the Metas and went home with the Lintons. I had no problem with the metas but they sounded like micro monitors.
@@cremersalex i did a blind fold test on my audiophile friend......He thought the lintons were the Harbeth 40.2's............Said they were 15% better......To his shock when he took off the blind fold!!!
@@xsamitt That's incredible! Ever since I got the Lintons, I wanted to compare them to similar sized Harbeths or Spendors, you know, to see if they really are that much better. Almost bought Harbeth HL5 Plus but the seller changed his mind.
@@cremersalex As i say ,the Lintons are the best all round speakers i have, and the best All round speaker i have ever heard................Yes one can pick apart the sound and my new 805 has strengths,like my other two........But again for all round speakers,the lintons are my fav!!
The frequency response just cuts everything above 18khz. The LS50 is much better especially with rew where you can get a razor flat response. The meta tech just redirects the high end to the back of the tweeter. This is a case where they just wanted to keep selling their most popular box and just changed up with the response curve and presented different as better even if it's not as accurate or pleasant.
Amplification and sources, not to mention cables and positioning affect the sound Get a smoother amp if it sounds bright and fatiguing...Arcam SA20 or similar....maybe some Marantz....definitely not Cyrus or modern Yamaha, or most receivers and class D, or, if your amplification is expensive then perhaps trade them for some Wharfedale Evo's or Elysians that will temper the the excesses This is what system matching is all about.
Can these also be used as centre speaker along side left and and right LS 50 Meta’s and would you recommend that or would you recommend another centre that could go well with L/R LS 50 Meta. My other option is the Dali Opticon 2 stand mount and Dali Opticon Vocal Centre. Many thanks.
I bought these as a replacment for my Q150s....i cant listen to the metas for no more than 2 hours..the Q150 i can listen to for 4 hours plus no problem..i just prefer the sound of the Qs
Shouldn't you have a hearing test to check for frequency hearing issue's first? Met loads of people who cant even hear the bleep from the card machine 😅
![VARIABLES, DATA TYPES, AND GLOBAL & LOCAL VARIABLES | ARDUINO PROGRAMMING TUTORIAL -2 | [MALAYALAM]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aAt4lwlnWCA/mqdefault.jpg)
In the mid-1980s I trained as a sound engineer with the BBC (at the Engineering Training Centre at Wood Norton in Evesham, and Television Centre on Wood Lane, London). I love Danny’s videos and passion but I’m not going to lie, I haven’t got a clue what Danny is talking about half of the time! I worked every day with Rogers LS5/9s, LS5/8s (and their matching Quad amps), LS3/5s, ATC monitors, and the finest quality recording and broadcast sound desks and signal chains in the UK.
I was also introduced to a couple of useful psychoacoustic concepts that render 90% of audiophile lore redundant:
1. Buy the speakers that YOU like the sound of. Each of us has a unique head related transfer function. We all hear things differently. The variance between us can be significant. So don’t listen to what others say - trust your ears when listening to your own favourite music. In music production and broadcast sound, we’re always aiming for a mid-point sound balance that won’t offend anyone. How you experience that will vary.
2. Your brain is not your friend when listening to those instruments which you already have a “library” of previous listenings. I have some top quality acoustic guitars. I know what they sound like when played live. Even if I listen to a recording of an acoustic guitar on a crummy system, my brain rejects the crummy sound and replaces it (in real time) with what I’m expecting to hear. So if you’re already familiar with what a great recording sounds like, your brain will automatically adjust mediocre sound without you having to do a lot of work - unless you concentrate. But why would you do that? A $500 set up today will reveal all of the flaws in recordings made before the year 2000.
And then there’s the somewhat uncomfortable realisation when you’re mic-ing up a legendary rock band and preparing to capture their live performance on a Neve sound desk and 2” tape that their gear is the biggest heap of crap you’ve ever seen! Even their records can be horribly recorded, mixed and mastered. And if you’re listening on vinyl, you’re relying on a manufacturing process with often terrible QC. Very often the record libraries at Maida Vale and Ealing had to grade brand new records at low values as they were entered into the inventory! They were often terrible!
The whole exercise is one of artifice. If you want to reproduce live sound in your listening room out of an array of transducers from a recording of any media, you can’t. Old recordings are full of unwanted and obvious artefacts of the recording process, and modern sound will have been compressed/expanded/equalised and processed many times before it reaches your system.
Just find speakers you like, a good quality 44.1KHz Red Book standard digital source, a clean amp with plenty of power (at least 3dB headroom on your speakers RMS or Continuous power handling rating) and enjoy what it was that got the band and the original producers so excited they wanted to make a record - the passion and artistry of the musicians and composers.
could you elaborate?
He is talking about selling overpriced components that cost pence to make in China with types like hims mark ups.. U can buy replicas of these speaker 394gbp from china
Very well said Mr. Robert Dowell. Totally agree and it is logical.
@@carewser 😂
Thanks for writing that! Was so insightful to read
What would be good is to hear your listening opinion on the speakers before you take them apart and then your thoughts after the tear down and see if they match.
How does one listen to a chart? LOL
@ paul lazarro . The same way you use a tape measure to see how big something is or weighing scales to check somethings weight or a light meter to check brightness . A huge dip or peak is visible on a graph so is the distortion and the the resonances and the dispersion characteristics and the time alignment of the drivers . Measurements are a useful tool . Hope this helps
he only assumes it will sound better after the mods. Steel nuts, BS
There's plenty of subjective reviews of the speakers out there. GR is great as a point of reference along with other reviewers. I check with a few points of view since I can't just test everything at home. No single reviewer has everything sorted out.
Danny, I think what would add a lot of value to your speaker break-down videos would be the inclusion of actual listening impressions before and after any upgrades you have made. Seeing the measurement graphs tell me nothing about how a speaker actually sounds with music. The before and after graphs are interesting and all, but they don't tell the whole story. I know that the better crossover parts should improve the sound; however, what exactly is changing to the bass, mids, and treble while listening to a specific piece of music. Using your first rate listening room to provide your subjective before and after impressions would help the layman grasp the value of your speaker upgrade kits and enable a more educated buying decision.
UA-cam is full of subjective impressions that have more to do with one's personal setup, bias, and expectations going into a listening session than anything else. I really appreciate the on/off axis measurements before and after tweaking. That empirical information. Unless a reviewer is doing a blind review in which they are unaware of what speakers they are hearing. That would actually be useful, but is hard to pull off given that most are reviewing speakers being sent to them specifically for their review, setup by them in their own studio, and arranged and agreed to before they are ever shipped to them.
Replacement of a few parts in the woofer crossover will not change the sound by much. I bet most people won’t hear the difference. But what makes the difference are the extremely good cabinet, the 12th generation co-axial driver, and the very experienced team at Kef, that has all the professional equipment that’s needed to create one of the best selling monitors of this generation, much better than their legendary LS3/5a
Great suggestion 👌
ok boomer
Amen!
That's what noticed about the vocals sound of this speaker. It's slightly veiled and muffled. Completely different from my Sonus Faber speakers which are lovely with vocals. Now I know the culprit. Thanks for sharing that information with us. Good job.
Hello from Switzerland. Thank you for your infos. I decided to buy them along with Quad Artera Play for my little room (20 m2) connected with in akustik cables and I am very happy. For sure there are other speakers and also better but I arrived at one point where I stopped further comparisons. I like how they look and how they sound. For me it's top. I listen to classics, jazz, and singer & songwriter and I enjoy it. Enjoy your music too and stay healthy.
"It’s not too bad to begin with" Wow. You can tell this guy has his own products to sell. I have these speakers, they replaced some PMCs that cost twice as much and they walk over them. They have a relatively flat frequency response, and fantastic imaging. Looking at the build, the boxes are heavily braced and filled with padding. The build quality is high, with a very nice matt paint finish. The performance is high.
You might think the performance is high if comparing them to older PMC's. If you comparing them to any of our kits though you realize real quickly that they are far from high quality. Our little X-LS Encore and X-Bravo models will eat them up in all areas.
@@dannyrichie9743 Then you are in disagreement with countless reviewers, and measurements. I have PMC twenty.21, which in my opinion are massively overrated, and they have an awful frequency response. I’ve heard the twenty5.21i too, it’s not good, just my subjective opinion, but I bet it measures poorly. To be fair your speakers do have a much better frequency response than many if not most speakers. I’m shocked at how the likes of B&W produce speakers that are all over the place. I have no idea why so many makers voice their speakers as they do, it’s weird. However, measurements of the Kef LS50 Meta contradict your assertions. And I bet you buy in your drivers, unlike Kef who design their own. I am sure your gear is very nice, I’m not saying otherwise. And probably excellent value in kit form.
@@StillAliveAndKicking_ Yes, I disagree with any reviewer that thinks these are great. They are mediocre at best. The crossover parts are fair to poor. The woofer has an iron core inductors and electrolytic caps. That stuff is budget level garbage.
We also do design our own drivers, and after having a lot of Kef drivers in house, I am not impressed. I hate the cone material too. It gives them a very vailed sound.
@@dannyrichie9743 what you mean by hating the cone material, the way its is dampened? Aluminum can sound very bad if dampened the wrong way, but aluminum if done right is one of the best material for cones and tweeters. Not that I like what KEF is doing, but I would choose a good aluminum woofer like the Dayton Audio Reference line over a poorly designed carbon fiber inverted dome or glass fiber cone membrane woofer any day of the year!
It is true that paper have those "halftones",, but that is not in the signal, it's just the paper response.
I agree with you that these KEFs are really poor. And for the price hike into the KEF Reference, I could build 10 times better speakers with 10 times better drivers in a 3 way fashion. Of course, I would go into DSP crossovers for them. Acoustic Elegance woofer comes to mind, BlieSMa 75mm textreme dome midrange comes to mind and the Satori Textreme tweeters. And this are top performers that can be had for 3k just the drivers. There is also the option of Purifi drivers, I would choose their aluminum cones because I really like how aluminum sounds over any paper cones, if the breakup is high enough so I can cross over in such a fashion that is 40-50db down at breakup point, which Purifi are.
Oh please, you're just a paid marketer
LS50 was my gateway drug to the audiophile world. After having gone through many twists and turns with other brands and mixing and matching many different components and cables, I’ve finally landed on KEF Reference 1 (+REL S510’s) as being the speaker that checks all of the boxes for me. I’m still very fond of the LS50’s and own 3 pair including the newer Meta. Great speakers for the price as long as you find the right component match.
Which amplifier would you recommend? Thanks
@@martingritsch2340 depends on what sound signature (warm vs neutral) and features you prefer but the best matches that I have found are Denon PMA-1600NE, Denon PMA-A110 (excellent), Cambridge EVO-150, and Gold Note IS-1000 (excellent). All of these have some form of tone controls which I prefer to dial in the bass and lower midrange. All of my KEF speakers including Ref 5’s require subs (preferably REL) to maximize enjoyment in my experience. I love clean, tight, musical bass down to 20hz but I know a lot of people are happy without subs. Honorable mentions for Hegel H90, H190 and Arcam SA30 and AVR30 as well. The Arcams really sing with external DACs like the PS Audio DirectStream.
@@martingritsch2340
I've not owned these or the original LS-50s ... however, by most accounts, it truly benefits from high quality high power amplification.
@@CaptainCrunch823 Many thanks for your competent and detailed answer.
I like the LS50 meta very much, but I also have no comparison.
@@FOH3663 Many thanks for your answer.
I have 7 of these -- a 5.1 and 2.1 -- love them!
I really have gotten hooked on watching these "Speaker Upgrade" videos by Danny. So much so, that I can't wait to see him release some new ones..
Interesting ... Main reasons for the "listener fatigue" are:
* Too bright sound.
* Room reverb.
Since the speaker is measuring pretty good, the only reason for the former is other equipment characteristics or settings. As for the room, if sitting closer (really near field) helps, it is the problem that can be addressed in many ways.
I own LS50 Meta since they ware released (over 18 months). And I love them for many reasons. They are in use for many hours almost every day.
For me, the main trick to have great sounding system without overspending is to have a pair of decent subs. This is even more true for ppl like me having home theater and music in one package. The subs dramatically reduce the requirement for the amp. They also leave the speaker to focus on the job of fine details. I had the opportunity to evaluate this theory against few times more expensive "true audiophile" setups and it proved to be correct. Not to mention that having subs makes speakers placement easier.
My experience is totally different than yours, I didn’t like the LS50s (original model) and having more than one sub would be a nightmare to me
Everyone has different ears I guess
Bright isn’t the only problem, any bump in the 3 to 5 Khz region makes a speaker sound really annoying
@@sccanj
Liking is something subjective :)
LS50 Meta are (objectively) great speakers for the price and can do very well on their own given appropriate room size, amp and room correction/treatment.
But I totally understand why some people consider them (subjectively).
A pair of subs is not a requirement. But a single decent 8-10" sub will do wonders to any setup. 2 are just marginally better. Mostly at distribution of the lows across the room.
Just watched this again. My original LS50s are in a closet and periodically I pull them out them out and listen to them. As Danny noted in the review, they have some clarity issues (at least to my ears) so I go back to my 1st "home-built" X-LS speakers.
Your comments about this speaker match my impressions. Unfortunately, there isn’t a single review out there that mentions the vocals sounding slightly veiled and laid back but that’s exactly what I’m hearing.
I went straight for the LS50 Wireless II, thanks to a nice open box deal from Crutchfield. I am thrilled with it!
Hi Cavey, I heard the Ls 50 and then I heard the wireless 2..I was blown away. How come their own amplification is better?
@@wicomms The Wireless 2 has separate amplifiers for the woofer and tweeter that are designed to get the most out of them. It also has a lot of digital signal processing, such as phase correction, that is able to enhance the sound by having the drivers work better together.
@@CaveyMoth thanks
7:04 Also if you put more big inductors in, the box will have less internal volume that will affect the bass.
The binding posts... of course, it's the binding posts!
If he finds the sound fatigueing for long periods, the issue may be the upper mid hump. The easy suggestion there is to listen off axis where that hump flattens out. It will still sound a little dark due to the continuous slope to the treble, but it will reduce the fatigueing nature. Tone controls might be able to flatten the response depending on the curve of the tone control. Also, the fatigue may come from a room acoustic issue.
I sold mine for that very reason J. Listen to music for around 8 hours a day when I'm home. The KEFS got worse as the day went on. Room acoustics should not have been a problem as I have a Lyngdorf amp with Room Perfect. Purchased a pair of JBL L82 Classics and they are perfect. Less harsh, more low end due to larger drivers. The soundstage isn't as wide as the KEFs but I can take that as they aren't fatiguing at all. Maybe as I listen to old soul and reggae on vinyl a lot is the reason why the JBLs are better.
@@stephenjon3502 yeah, jbl didn't design the L-82's for soundstaging. They built them for tone, texture & dynamics. But don't think that room perfect will fix room acoustic issues. While it can help, it won't completely undo bad acoustics. Physics can't be fooled. God created physics. He is not going to suspend physics because you bought a fancy digital processor. As for me, I can't listen to digital for very long before the digital hash splits my brain in two. Going to high resolution helps but then the fine details and lack of level gradations keep it from sounding real for me. Glad to hear you found a better solution in the L-82s. I had a boss that had an original set if L-82s. Glad jbl is keeping the heritage going.
@@jked7463 "God created physics" is by definition against the laws of physics.
Or from an amplifier.
@@Technical_Audio depending on the amp, or more likely amp/speaker interaction.
There is a 2R7 series resistor in the tweeter x over in my Metas! Both the large value electrolytic caps are in shunt on the woofer circuit so forgivable for the price. Yes I agree though, super difficult to upgrade without going to an external crossover
This one had no resistor on the tweeter circuit. Those electrolytic caps are in the direct signal path and do degrade the signal to the woofer.
@@dannyrichie9743 The tweeter resistor is hidden behind the series cap. If you don't take the board out you won't see it
I took mine out and traced the circuit. It is exactly as the KEF white paper says. 3rd order with a notch on the woofer, so the caps are in shunt, not series.
@@simondart1481 If only the original boards could be easily removed.... Those caps in shunt are still directly in the signal path to that woofer. What you hear passes right through them.
Great assessment as always. I would caution that manufacturer part choices are not only based on budget constraints but also driver synergy and balance. Simply replacing an R, L or C of the same value with a better part may not yield the same sonic signature and balance that was intended by the manufacturer.
Well said. It's a great speaker, I listen to these at a cafe every morning..
Exactly.
Anders Ertzeid from Hegel uses those with a H590 in his personal system so they must be doing something right 😅
The LS50 comes with port plugs. One is a donut and would help with port resonance without hurting bass response much.
I had the previous gen LS50 and didn’t find it especially fatiguing.
If anything you would expect some low frequency extension from plugging the port. You might lose some SPL, of course.
You can find information how to tweak the KEF LS50 (no Meta) when searching for "KEF LS50 Tonfeile Pimp" and "Pimp my KEF LS50" (all in German). It provides information how to open the cabinet by removing the front baffle via 4 screws from the back (may be different on the Meta version?), a suggestion for an alternative bass driver crossover and some nice pictures showing the build and parts quality. I recently shortly listened to the LS50 Meta and was not 100% satisfied, especially cabinet vibrations where a little bit disappointing to me, maybe it is because the front baffle seems not be screwed instead of glued to the cabinet.
I am grateful for these videos especially when you show and describe the inner workings.
Sometimes, the fatigue comes from too high listening level, trying to get some more bass. I'd suggest a midbass module or a sub for a more pleasurable experience.
"A flat in-room target response is clearly not the optimal target curve for room equalization. The preferred room corrections have a target response that has a smooth downward slope with increasing frequency. This tells us that listeners prefer a certain amount of natural room gain. Removing the room gain, makes the reproduced music sound unnatural, and too thin, according to these listeners. This also makes perfect sense since the recording was likely mixed in room where the room gain was also not removed; therefore, to remove it from the consumers' listening room would destroy spectral balance of the music as intended by the artist."
That’s from Sean Olive’s blog.
People prefer a downward slope in room for a number of reasons. This doesn’t mean all people, of course.
Agreed ... even further, I'd mate these with a full tilt dipole bass system AND a monopole subwoofer below.
Nothing like dipole bass/midbass, and the manner in which it resolves LF... just physics.
I would be really-really curios about KEF R3 model. It would be super interesting to watch your analysis. Thanks!
MF M6si or above will match really well with these. You really need good strong clean power for these speakers to shine.
Thats why you see so many of the older version of this speaker for sale, they are to bright! They sound fantastic at first listen like many of today's speakers. They have elevated highs and mids.
The whole front baffle is on 4 bolts that go trough back so you can take it off!
Nope. Not with the LS50 Meta anymore.
Pair them with subs....give the mid driver a bit less to do and these sound great.
I had a pair of Kef 104/2 for over 30 years...Replaced by Watkins Gen 4 and a JL Audio e112 Sub.SOUNDS REAL GOOD
Hi Ray, I am still running my original KEF 104/2 with a PS Audio Sprout. They still sound wonderful. I have been thinking of new speakers, but not sure if newer is better. What do you find better with your new setup? Thanks
My roommate had a pair of KEF top of their line speakers back in the mid80’s. Ran them with the Adcom GFA 555 and matching preamp. They sounded good, really good, but I was in a love affair with my Dahlquist at the time (would stay there until they were stolen). I was just glad we lived in a big townhouse with a floor between us when listening at the same time .
Thank you Danny for what you do! Hello from East Texas.
crossover in a separate enclosure, I say why not?
Extremely high frequencies are not able to be interpreted by the human ear but that doesn’t mean we’re unaware of them. I knew a bloke about 30 or 40 years ago who monitored emissions at factories. One place he went to had a bunch of people who were getting constant headaches. He measured a signal at about 45 kHz at _in excess of 160 dB!_
It would not surprise me at all that very high frequency sounds have an effect we are not aware of. I can only imagine what that factory noise was doing to the local dog population!
The peak around 4-6k could perhaps make it a little fatiguing?
That’s what I was thinking
It's on par with everything below 1K, so not likely. Most brightness/fatigue comes from 1-3Khz range and the Metas are dipped 1-2dB in those ranges.
Why not just put in a smaller capacitor in the 2. order highpass filter just to lower the 2.5db peak there? It would absolutely make it sound less sharp and direct, espesially when the music is turned up. Its also hot off axis in the same area so 1-1.5db would actually make it more perfect.
@@impuls60 that's going to cause more issues than it solves... It's going to affect the crossover point, leaving a dip. And likely wont do enough to tame the response in those areas. It's not really "humped up" so much as the top end rolling off as you get further off-axis which is normal for any coaxial speaker.
That ultrasonic ringing can create audible IM distortion difference tones in the top octave. For example, a 10 KHz tone interacts with a 22 KHz resonance to produce a 12 KHz tone.
KEF speakers require 50-100 hours to break in, it’s normal for these to be ‘bright and tight’ until then. Fatiguing? Never… perhaps the wrong amp? They have invested millions in R&D, as an engineer I know anything components and speakers or anything for that matter are designed to meet a price point in the marketplace….These are very highly regarded, our customers love them.
Room treatment and speaker placement is the issue. Even with a "bright" amp, you can make the LS50M much more warm sounding by doing a bit of acoustic treatment and placing speakers more off-axis.
well that 50 -100 hours are needed to get familiarized to the new signature sound... lol 4:54 nice chinese caps, that`s what im thinking the voice area is really compromised!! i hate that speakers
@@camelazo Yeah, I can't hear any difference what comes to break in (mostly just getting used to new speaker sound). I still can't understand how someone can hate this speaker (insane build quality, good overall performance, measures well, etc.) I understand if someone hates overly bright speakers that are a pain to listen to, but these even measure well in most of the test I have seen.
Pair LS50M with sub(s) and you have a solid speaker system for a small to medium size rooms. There are better speakers, for sure, but I find it hard to hate if speakers are optimally placed with good room acoustics.
Millions in R&D ... but did you see that filter!?!?!?
Initially I enjoyed Danny dissections. Now not much. I would highly recommend instead of finding faults with every speaker and then recommending his business as the fix , he could do a real service by recommending speakers that are made well. His videos are at their core advertisements. Now very boring. Always cheesy, ferrous conductors, bad caps, etc. Same themes, different speakers, each and every time.
Well that means they're cheapening out in parts
Agreed
So true.
@@johnsmith-i5j7iThey’re building to a price point. What product is perfect, or doesn’t make compromises
The only speakers that aren’t- often in ways most reviewers barely scratch the surface eg distortion at different SPLs, harmonic distortion - and IMD … are likely to cost north of $5000
I am certainly no expert but I agree with Barney from about 3 hrs ago - 5 inch 'bass' isn't gonna get it done, regardless the company. they are designed to be used with a Sub , which I would think would clean up the low mids IF the Sub and especially Xover is good. Note, I have Metas, Outlaw receiver, Def tech Sub.....Many might say that's not even 'Audiophile'.....
The Outlaw is a wonderful receiver !
The cap on the tweeter is a little too big. Lower it 1-2uf and it will bring that hump at 4-6k hz down. Then, a 15 deg off axis listening position should be recommended imo.
Very faint praise for an outstanding little speaker.
It is not really that outstanding. You are never going to get to outstanding with budget level parts. It is mediocre at best.
Thank you for an honest detailed review!
I'm more than pleased with building the gr-research av3's fronts and center with a gr-research servo sub...yet to build some rears
All speakers suck unless you buy parts from GR
I love your sarcasm.
Especially the tube connectors
@@giriprasadkotte9876 😄 Tu-be or not Tu-be, that is the question
Yeah, that's the sales pitch anyway.
I've compared these directly to the Totem Sky monitors, and the Totem's were the clear winner for lacking all the flaws you said come with electrolytic caps and cheaper parts, etc. They're decent for their price, but a few hundred more gets you more transparency, soundstage, and low level detail on account of the better parts in the Totems. The one thing these do better, is the complete lack of box colorations. These cabinets are inert as I've ever heard. Heard on their own though, you'd think these were pretty darn good. They're dynamically a bit restricted for a woofer of this size, on account of part of the cone area being used for the tweeter, but they still throw a good size soundstage, so they don't sound terribly small.
Nice speakers but I had to get rid of them as they were really fatiguing. My music's on most of the day and these were a big no no.
Danny, can you do a vid featuring what you consider to be the biggest leaps in speaker technology in the past 25 yrs ?
Having watched the video Danny didn't really have anything negative to say about these? Build/frequency/spectral all seems very good/flat/clean but would he recommend them, I doubt it, you should by his DIY speakers with off the shelf drivers because it's all about the crossover😉😉
Sorry, but we don't offer any "off the shelf drivers". All of our drivers are our own.
@@dannyrichie9743 apologies to you but i though I see in one of your videos that you purchased a load of drivers on a buyout which doesn't sound like custom drivers to me but if they are your own designed and spec custom drivers then ok.
@@ohmygodwhatareyoudoing4929 We did buy some drivers from AV123 when they went out of business. We made a little kit out of them and gave them away for the cost of the parts: ua-cam.com/video/5HhYRlbGyfU/v-deo.html It was a great way to bring new customers to DIY.
Did Danny ever address the customer's original complaint about the speaker causing listening fatigue ? Obviously, in this case a flat response is not what the customer wanted to hear.
The owner complaint that the speakers are fatiguing. I listened to Danny but I don't think he really addressed this 'issue'. Danny mentions that it's a little veiled and the treble is rolled-off but nothing points towards a fatiguing speaker. Did I miss something?
Danny great video! I'm wondering how you made the 3D plot(the waterfall spectral plot)!
We use a Clio measuring system.
Man, audiophiles really do over-think stuff.
It's like saying, overpaid or overjoyed.
Sure, maybe, but we prefer it to the alternative.
Man. Einstein sure did some over-think back in the day….
You can’t over think quality. Also when you feel others might be overthinking, pause and wonder if maybe it’s actually you that is under-thinking.
I've been a pedophile going on 15 years now. What you have to understand is that when it comes to audio, every little component adds to the overall sound of your stereo system.
@@CoomerGremlinDGGfan ayo?
A few years ago i heard the original LS50; not bad at all, but the mids sounded to nasal, like they're glued to the speaker.
To the owner, have you tried aiming them so their center points cross over a bit in front of the listening position? This technique is sometimes recommended for coaxial drivers to make them feel less ‘beamy’.
you are the best and most honest.
Wondering how these KEFs compare to the NX Studios.
They don't even compare to our X-LS Encores. The NX-Studios are way out of their league.
Why is it that speaker manufacturers reveal so little about their crossover designs? Seems like there's a golden opportunity for a confident speaker designer to go full open-kimono and show their customers every single design decision, every part, and the manufacturing process, that goes into building a particular speaker model. Along with publishing all the measurements - in anechoic and non-anechoic settings. I believe that approach would appeal to broad range of people who care about more than just great aesthetics. Also, with fewer and fewer audio shops available, it would help with making a purchase without actually hearing the product first. Many of us rely on reviews to make audio purchase decisions, and having the design decisions, measurements, and parts list - would make those reviews more valuable to a person like me, who does not have easy access to a full range audio shop. I appreciate these videos, because Danny digs into the details like no one else I've seen. And he exposes just how little information manufacturers actually reveal about their products. Sure, we all want a set of speakers that look great, but I also want to know exactly what went into it, and why. And I don't think I'm the only one.
There are only a handful of people that care about those sorts of things and even then you can find all the details online. Driver/speaker designs have been detailed with 3D models and you can find all the small details nowadays. I personally did watch two really long presentations by Kef and how they designed every part. I can understand if there are problems with other manufacturers but Kef seems to be open with everything.
Also, with online stores, you can at least test the gear and return it if you don't like the sound. All of my speakers did sound way different in the store than in my listening space. It's always nice to test speakers before buying but everything sounds different depending on the room. This is why reviewers have all sorts of takes when using the same speaker.
@@audiophil5042 I agree that room acoustics make a huge diff. I have a neighbor who built a pool table room in his basement. All hard surfaces with a concrete floor. He installed an expensive audio system and 4 high-quality speakers, but the room reflections were so bad, it was painful to listen to anything above very low-volume. But I'm pretty sure those same speakers would sound great in my living room - which is full of soft surfaces. Still, I wish manufacturers would do more to reveal their speaker designs - particularly their crossover designs, which have enormous potential for coloring the sound.
@@mxbishop Well, manufacturers only care about selling higher-end gear and offer different price points. Spend more and get better quality/output. It would be a negative business decision to offer an easy way to make modifications. Most audio gear has still great ways to improve things and is semi-easy to repair compared to other modern hardware companies (Apple, Tesla, etc.)
All it takes is one chip inside the gear that disables every modification. The future is not looking bright so I'm happy that consumers have now at least ways to improve speakers. We can just support the brands that are doing a good job. I avoid buying products that become e-waste because of the company's anti-repair design.
The sound of the Kef’s are a bit more depending on a good amp than some other speakers. The Meta’s are better sounding than the first generation LS50. Those were also very good, but a bit fatiguing with some not so good recorded songs. The Meta’s are great in a smaller room and a sub is necessary for the low frequencies beneath 60 Hz. But please use a good amp like Hegel, Arcam, Naim, Roksan etc. These speakers are just as I expected. Good measurements, very good cabinet, overall good crossover, excellent sound for the size, imho best in this price class. It’s a definitely a killer, this Kef is a world wide succes. But no word about the soundstage of these speakers. If you place them correctly in the room, on good stands, these speakers are sounding incredible, sound fills the room without the idea that it’s coming out of the cabinets. That’s why so many people like them so much.
Really?
Try Flamenco sketches by Coltrane and Davis, maybe you discover what the Meta’s are capable off.
I would say that the LS50M sounds good even when using a low-end amp but really shines with high-end gear. Definitely needs a sub but never sounded bad even with a cheap amp with enough power. I have been testing even with multiple $200 - $600 amps and never had a bad experience with my listening space with good room treatment. It's a solid speaker for small to medium-size rooms if you like a clean detailed sounding speaker. If it causes fatigue then the room needs some acoustic treatment.
I did fix the rear port "boomy" sound issue with nice DIY 50/50 diffuser/absorber panels behind the speakers. That small change had an insane impact on the overall performance, depth, and soundstage. Definitely way better results than using port plugs.
I just got a pair. Only listened for 30-50 hours so far... Using with sub (as I do with all my speakers). Sound quality is fine, but what I like is that I can be anywhere - even laying down in the floor - and the sound stage is decent. Very useful when you do not have the perfect seating position in your room!
"upgrade the binding posts to increase the clarity" !
Sometimes significantly. Many of those cheap binging posts are Brass with Steel terminals and Steel nuts on them.
For the price I couldn't find a better sounding, or looking speaker than the LS50, because there isn't any. I have owned quite a few different speakers, somewhere around 50 or so. I also use to build my own speakers, and although they were quite good, with high quality parts, inert cabinets, and exotic wood veneers, I couldn't compete. Fin. Thanks KEF!?! lol
Every kit we offer is well above them across the board.
If you build your own speakers there are several better in diy. Madisound has a few scan speak kits that would probably compete with Wilson audio. I happen to have a bookshelf that would compete with the b&w 802s. Not to put you down but the kefs fall apart when you play anything by 2 cellos. Anything with warmth like cellos sounds horrid on those.
What others did you try
Yes there are, plenty actually. You sound like a KEF fanboy. A Dali Opticon 1 MK2 sounds better in almost every way, except bass. The Opticon 2 will give you better bass. I had the first gen LS50 for two years so I know what I am talking about
I got a pair of these and the biggest problem I had was the bass, just too much and overwhelming I had to plug the ports to get them to sound ok in my room. They’re solidly built though. I sold them though and bought the real thing, LS3/5a.
You'll need to add a good sub (or two!) to those little boxes if you want real base.
Don't blame you I had the originals one of most overrated speaker iv ever heard now got Pair of Atc a real speaker
@@willbrink enough bass for me without sub, I’m not into bass so long as the tone and I can actually follow bass lines without being swamped in bass.
@@justinparkman3585 atc’s are awesome speakers. Very accurate and revealing however I have since sold mine and have gone the diy route. Far better performance for the money spent.
I have both, but the Meta’s are better sounding in every aspect.
I have LS50 meta on Kef stands powered by a Bluesound Powernode 2021 so a relatively cheap system and I love the sound they make. The clarity and soundstage. I think this video starts with the premise there is something not good about them lets find out what it is. I couldn't care less that's there's a component in their that is not , in his opinion optimal. Perhaps Kef chose that component specifically for it characteristics. I am interested in what my ears tell me and not his graphs. There was no opinion on their performance relative to other speakers at that price point. No discussion about what sort of music they are best for. Just a person taking the back off and saying they are built well but eureka here is the culprit , perhaps or perhaps not. To get better sound you will have to spend more , possibly a lot more. No mention of the guy complaining what they were paired to or what music he listens to. It must be the fault of the speakers.
If you'd like a comparison, every DIY kit that we offer eats them up across the board, and for a lot less money.
@@dannyrichie9743 You are bound to say that but thats not a credible comparison. Where is the independent assessment.
@@bjs7442 My word is credible. Just have a look at those crossover parts in the LS-50 and then compare it to what we offer in our kits. Our drivers sound a lot better as well. It is really not even a comparison.
@@dannyrichie9743 When I buy speakers I try them with my system. When the speaker is a kit I would need to know from someone other than yourself that I am getting excellent speakers suitable for my system. I am not doubting your word but you have a conflict of interest. I see Kefs advertising for example and want an independent expert view to help my decision.
@@bjs7442 Visit our forum at the Audio Circle to get feedback from our customers.
Still, you are asking an answer to an obvious question.
It is about like someone asking me, how does a Corvette (our speaker) compare to a Smart Car (cheaply produced mass marketed speaker). I own actually own one of each of them and know them quite well, but then they don't want to take my word for it because I might be biased, even though it is not even a comparison.
When he soon says something to the effect of 'I've measured the Q100 and Q150, same driver', that tells me right away that he doesn't know what he's talking about. They may look to be similar drivers, but I know that all 3 speakers have different driver builds in addition to the cabinets and crossover networks.
Nothing significantly different about them.
Would you like to look at a set of Heritage Specials? They are good enough to make me want Confidence 20.
Sir kindly share crosover values i am very thankful
First review ive seen which actually addresses my disappointment with the sound of these (based on so many high praised reviews). I thought maybe I had set them up wrong or wasnt hearing them right. Definitely rolled off on the top and that muffled vocal, was the perfect description! Nailed it.
They are very transparent, you are probably hearing your amplifier properly for the first time
I wish someone make a test and a video about Elac BS-312 and maybe compare them to the Kef LS50
Maybe the customer is over driving their amps and listening to the speaker too loud ? Or has a preamp that is not neutral ?
Great video! I love seeing the parts used inside of the speakers - it tells you so much about the passion of the manufacturer or if they are just using cheapest glue and cable-binders to fix the parts.
Lol here's another amateur that thinks he knows something
Please do a video on the Elac Uni-Fi 2.0’s.
if you want to work on a awsome nugget, try get a KEF ACE 9000 center L/R. / its from the earlye 2005s, such a unique HT speaker, i had a 3 front they was awesome, very much.
if i remeber correct it had. a active carbonfiber pod inside something something. big sound from a thin speaker. and used the Q series top range units.
/
Gr research could you cast your eye over the castle Harlech s1's and the castle Howard s3's,,, from the uk
Would love to see a tear down of Wharfedale Linton’s since a lot of objectivists/measurement focused reviews are praising them. EDIT: I see you already did! I love this channel.
get a cheap endoscope to investigate the ports....
LS50 sounds fantastic, more then the sum of thier parts, mainly due to that "tank" of a cabinet. They have a fantastic top end and great uncoloured vocal clarity. What do you suggest as a better monitor speaker for up to £2000 for example?
Just about ever DIY kit we offer and for less than half of that price.
Check out the Technics SB-C700. Even Stereophile compared it favorably.
There are a few you tube videos out on the Technics SB- C700. Seems impressive from what you can take from the compressed audio. Not easy to find though!
The SB-C700 is very impressive. Crazy holographic imaging of all the instruments. Snappy fast and tonally natural midrange. Sweet highs, deep bass. Everything one could want
@@DigitalPhilosophers Good video comparison to the Elac Vela. The Vela's are beautiful, but i felt more restrained to the expressive Technics 👍
@@steventsimtsos4029 You say it. The SB-C700 sound expressive 🤩
I've heard they are a bright speaker. Would that be correct?
Contradicción completa. Excelente medición, pero , se deduce mal sonidos por los capacitores de bajos?? Confío en Danny por su rigurosidad, y porque obliga a la industria a mejorar sus estándares, pero creo falta el aspecto subjetivo de la audición: como suena?
To me to port noise gets noticeable after around 85 db. That resonance can be solved by pluging it and using a subwoofer.
Youd be surprised. I have one of our high end kits with an external crossover. One pair of crossover's i built uses high-quality parts, the other uses some of the cheapest parts I could find on Parts-Express. On par with the quality seen in the Metas. They measure identically, but sound nothing alike.. the cheap crossovers sounds dull and congested at best.
The reason we dont do listening tests is because customers often only send us a single speaker to save on shipping costs.
We also don't install the upgrades to be able to do before/after testing.
I found my Kef Q100 had a dip at 105Hz, have not compared to my Q150 yet but that would be interesting. Now have Kef R3. No more dip at 105Hz so I think could be due to the crossover/ updated driver/ shadow flair but WOW, KEF R3 is a Fantastic speaker with amazing clarity, dynamics and superb bass extension. high frequencies do drop off but easily boosted. I would very highly recommend Kef R3s to anyone using nearfield (need at least 1.5 to 2metres in front of speakers to hear bass) or for any room exceeding 10 square metres.
This is probably one of your best videos. Good job Danny.
Exrernal crossover is beautiful !!
The blue looks a bit darker in the promo pics
and so LS50 is "this" and is "that" , the comments go. To and fro, Comments go. And...... Zack seems to notice the blue color tone 😁 interesting 🙃
Hello,
The shunting caps in the woofer circuit being electrolytic should not affect the sound , are you saying poly caps there would make a difference ..??
Regards
Great review man! Could you do a review of the new/old re-issue Rogers Speakers? Thanks, ~peace
I am not a reviewer, but if you send one in then I will take a look at it.
KEF, like B&W and others, expect you to buy their ultra flagship models if you want the BEST crossover networks WiTHOUT CHEESE. You'd have to buy the KEF BLADE at $30,000 plus to get a high-quality crossover network that matches the quality of Danny's, GR Research/NX Series speakers!
The LS50 is remarkable, but it requires a few things: careful equipment matching, needs to be placed at least three feet away from the walls, with little to no toe in, and 24 inch stands.
Ear level
@@The0nionKnight I much prefer the 24 inch stands. Plenty of clarity and the imaging is the right height. I’m also only 5’6”.
Increase clarity?? In my experience, the LS50 Meta is one of if not the clearest speaker I’ve heard in 35 years. I also think it images and disappears as well in any speaker I’ve heard under $5k. I prefer the fuller sound of the Heritage Special, but the metas excel in clarity and translucence.
You need to hear other speakers.
Are you saying that all reviewers who rave about these speakers, including Stereophile who rated them Class A and Steve Gutenberg who rate them as one of his top speakers ever, haven’t listened to enough speakers, or perhaps they don’t know what they are talking about?? I’ve owned around 20 speakers and I’ve auditioned more than a hundred, and these are the best near-field monitors I’ve heard under $5K. I agree with Stereophile and other reviewers.
I went to the hifi shop to compare the Lintons with the Metas and went home with the Lintons. I had no problem with the metas but they sounded like micro monitors.
I have the lintons ,also the harbeth 40.2 anniversairy,PSB T3,and THE NEW 805 B&W and The lintons are incredible and stand up to all I have!!.....
@@xsamitt Really? Wow!
@@cremersalex i did a blind fold test on my audiophile friend......He thought the lintons were the Harbeth 40.2's............Said they were 15% better......To his shock when he took off the blind fold!!!
@@xsamitt That's incredible! Ever since I got the Lintons, I wanted to compare them to similar sized Harbeths or Spendors, you know, to see if they really are that much better. Almost bought Harbeth HL5 Plus but the seller changed his mind.
@@cremersalex As i say ,the Lintons are the best all round speakers i have, and the best All round speaker i have ever heard................Yes one can pick apart the sound and my new 805 has strengths,like my other two........But again for all round speakers,the lintons are my fav!!
It is amazing that you the only reviewer that does not agree with everyone else. Who is right, your ears or the other 20 guys ears?
I am not a reviewer. They were sent to me to see if we could get them to sound better.
The frequency response just cuts everything above 18khz. The LS50 is much better especially with rew where you can get a razor flat response. The meta tech just redirects the high end to the back of the tweeter. This is a case where they just wanted to keep selling their most popular box and just changed up with the response curve and presented different as better even if it's not as accurate or pleasant.
Please do Audio Note speakers
Send one in.
Hi, how are you doing? Thanks for your videos. I like to know about B&W 707 how is that speaker 🔊
Send one in and I'll let you know.
We want you to go through kef r series! 😁
Amplification and sources, not to mention cables and positioning affect the sound
Get a smoother amp if it sounds bright and fatiguing...Arcam SA20 or similar....maybe some Marantz....definitely not Cyrus or modern Yamaha, or most receivers and class D, or, if your amplification is expensive then perhaps trade them for some Wharfedale Evo's or Elysians that will temper the the excesses
This is what system matching is all about.
That is will not help the fact that the signal at the crossover is being washed out by budget level parts.
Q350 please, im sure you can modify it Sir. Nice video
Can these also be used as centre speaker along side left and and right LS 50 Meta’s and would you recommend that or would you recommend another centre that could go well with L/R LS 50 Meta. My other option is the Dali Opticon 2 stand mount and Dali Opticon Vocal Centre. Many thanks.
I wouldn't recommend any of their speakers.
I see your Colorado Rockies shirt👍 Are you in Colorado??
Sorry, that is a GR Research T-Shirt.
Nice review. Would love to know what you do recommend other than kits which i dont have the patience for
We do offer some of them fully assembled.
I bought these as a replacment for my Q150s....i cant listen to the metas for no more than 2 hours..the Q150 i can listen to for 4 hours plus no problem..i just prefer the sound of the Qs
Might be good for casual listening!! I think all other reviewers would disagree.
Part of KEF’s reference line.
Why does first graph start at 200 Hz? What happens from 20 - 200 Hz on the stock product?
Measuring lower requires the mic to be further away.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you for replying.
PLEASE do the R300 - great speaker, but lacks some coherence and openness - a bit vailed - like the potential of the drivers is not unleashed…
Shouldn't you have a hearing test to check for frequency hearing issue's first? Met loads of people who cant even hear the bleep from the card machine 😅
I can still hear to 18.5 kHz. Not bad for age 57.
Hi wondering if you ever made an upgrade kit for the tannoys 215 you were working on years ago