Idunn | The Ever-Young Norse Goddess
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
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music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
Further Reading
- Prose Edda - Snorri
- Poetic Edda - Lokasenna
- Practical Heathen's Guide to Asatru - Patricia M. Lafayllve (Beginners)
- Celtic Myths and Legends - Peter Berresford Ellis (The Sons of Tuirenn)
- Gods and Myths of Northern Europe - HRE Davidson
- Handbook on Norse Mythology - John Lindow
00:00 - Intro
00:37 - The Kidnapping of Idunn - The Prose Edda
05:40 - Characteristics of Idunn
06:47 - The Lokasenna - The Poetic Edda
08:32 - Eternal Youth & Death of the Gods
11:18 - The Sons of Tuirenn & Other Possible Influences
12:59 - Idunns Associations
Credit to Idunn art piece used in the video to: www.deviantart.com/ansfhd/art...
13:58 As a plant ecologist, I can confirm
I adore Idunn and clicked this video the minute I saw it, there's little information on her so thank you for the discussion!
I first read about Norse mythology while working on a farm that donated crops, so I always thought of her in a similar way: a goddess who shares subsidence with her community.
This is a really awesome observation. It's amazing how there's little perspectives on the Gods that are seen so much more up close by those who are working with agriculture and ecology in some way.
@@OceanKeltoi great videos ,please do one for punjabi jatts
@@OceanKeltoi also how ancient warriors trained for war
@@OceanKeltoi also on bronze age
If you are correct in that Idunn is associated with Curiosity, that would imply that Curiosity/Discovery/Etc was The Prize of the Gods. That fits pretty nicely with a god of knowledge and cunning in the lead position in the pantheon.
The goddess of immortality and eternal youth being paired with the god of poetry and art is, if you'll excuse the phrasing, poetic.
Yeah, as I was researching, I confess that I didn't know much about Bragi, honestly still don't because there isn't much information on him. But when seeing their interaction in the Lokasenna, and considering their match after that, I came to a similar conclusion.
Poetic or.... Pro-Eddic?
Especially if you take the point of view that Bragi wasnt originally a God but rather a mortal man who after his death became one; and if you associate the Golden Apples of Etenal Youth with the greek Ambrosia of the Gods that granted divinity, it was Idunn who gave the gift of godhood to his future husband
@@emiliobustamante2401 There's disagreements around Bragi and the concept of him as an ascended human. I'll have to make a Bragi video diving into it.
@@OceanKeltoi You mentioned praying to Idunn and another deity for health. Could you give me the name of the other one? Thank you in advance.
Loki: So, Idun, i gotta know... how you like dem apples?
If the gods truly are timeless(5th dimensional) then they'd understand that reference
@@KittyBatSeth5th dimension isn't time. Time being a dimension would imply that the 5th dimension is more special than any other dimension even though there's literally infinite dimensions. Furthermore, dimensions are very literal in what they mean, measurement of space. Time does not measure anything, nor is it measurable.
Lol I can see him doing that...
For some reason, the idea of a goddess guarding and dispensing the fruits of eternal youth reminds me of the Chinese goddess Xi Wangmu, who presided over a garden where the peaches of immortality grew.
That's a really intriguing thought, Alex. I don't know as much about the Chinese cosmology/ pantheon, but it looks like Xi Wangmu's name roughly translates as "west mother-goddess" and that she's so ancient her origins are unclear. Couple that with her role determining the lifespan of every living being and some of her titles being "golden" or "unborn & old" and I think an association with Idunn is definitely worth considering.
@@LT-gx8md While you're here you should look into Jiutian Xuannu, the Dark Lady of the Nine Heavens, goddess of war, magic, sex, and longevity. You may find aspects of relatable to Ishtar.
Honestly, I feel that eternal youth and eternal life are two different things. So with the relation of that story, I feel like that would mean that Idunn is rather a source of active life if that makes sense. Or perhaps of timelessness. After all, to live is to age. It is the breaking down of life. So Idunn kind of feels like a personification of that timelessness, that prime of life. I think seeing her as ancient is fitting given her reaction to Loki and his mocking. That calm is something that comes from both age and knowledge. And I do like the thought of science as well. It feels fitting. Someone who is eternal in the way Idunn is, feels like someone who would delve into the realms of the knowledge of existence which, in my mind, is exactly what science is.
I agree wholeheartedly
This was fascinating. Personally I don't think the Gods can die, at least not in our understanding of death. With the myths not being literal Idunn's youth giving powers could also be a great way of illustrating how people fear aging through those stories rather than showing the literal ability of the Gods to age and die.
I think youth simply empowers them, keeping them in prime eternally. To age is to wither, but gods cannot die from natural causes.
There's something particularly powerful about Idunn, To be responsible for the ''youth'' of the gods, yet to never hold it against them or use her power to increase her standing, there's something so wonderful and mysterious about her, everyone seems to have their own take on her, great video :)
I'm thinking, with her being eternal youth, as well as connected to curiousity. She might be some kind of representation of the inner child, childlike curiosity and innocence. Which might fit her being gullible enough to fall for Loki's lie.
It might also fit the aspect of her being what keeps the Gods young and immortal. In that the children bring with them our memory and keep us "immortal". As well as the fact that children reminds us to be childlike/young ourselves.
Might be a bit weird and all with her being married to Bragi, and shit.
I might also be projecting my own problems with my inner child.
But it's a take of many.
i saw Idunns curiosity more as childlike considering the youth connotations, but both is good
yeah like nerdy kid vibes
So by getting Idunn back and slaying Thiazi, would you say they killed two birds with one nut?
Thank you for covering another deity that truly has so many mysteries around them. I think I can agree with your reasoning and this has definitively made me question the gods' mortality. Nice job Ocean :D
The kidnapping story has similarities to the taking of Persephone.
Idunn is the apple of Bragi's eye 🍎
And I love that you are going through my list of gods and goddesses on my list to research lol
I've read that one of Loki's more enigmatic kennings was "hound of Idunn." It might refer to his tracking her down after her abduction, but a.) he took the form of a hawk for that, and b.) he knew exactly where she'd been taken anyway. But adding the context of Nehelenia, with her image carrying a basket full of apples and a loyal hound by her feet, I wonder whether there's a version of the story where it was originally her hound who chased the Jotunn when his mistress was taken, and this faithful dog freed her, the two making their own way back to Asgard with Thiazi hot on their heels. In time the story got mashed with another story of Odin, Loki and Hoenir meeting Thiazi, and the hound got replaced as the protagonist by Loki, his provocation of the giant becoming an explanation for why Thiazi took her in the first place.
Just a guess, but could "youth" in this case be less a factor of mortality and more one of growth/adaptivity/relevance (especially given the association with curiosity)? In which case she may be an interesting figure to bring into the recon/eclectic practice discussion
Especially since younger creatures tend to be, on average, more able to adapt to various situations?
@@JariDawnchild yes in part. There's two parts in that, one of what youth vs old age means and one of youth vs specifically mortality/death. Or, kind of different, individual death vs cultural death.
So on a literal individual level, a loss of youth may mean less growth or adaptability, being stuck in one's ways, less able to act in the individual's given function or role, and ultimately death as non-existence, considering here the negative aspects of old age. As applied to gods, the most applicable piece is likely more lack of change and lack of impact in their roles (imo, that can be a whole debate).
This ties to gods as connected to culture, and in this case a religion that lost its living tradition with the conversion to Christianity. This basically again loops back around to a lack of change, essentially a fossilization in a specific point in time via the records that remain. That's also where I'd begin to tie in either very strict reconstruction as picking up that fossil, plus eclectic practices/UPG/SPG/other revival notions of extrapolation from history and bringing back in that element of change.
(Very basic, but that's a kind of outline of potential discussion points, definitely not making the claim that's all what Idunn represented for sure)
Maybe "youthfullness" in the sense of a prevention of the inevitable jadedness that would come from being sentient forever?
Providing both the curiousity and adaptability that means interacting with humans?
I mean, I'm only 30, but after an hour in a zoom meeting; I'm ready to leave material existence behing forever. I imagine that sentiment scales up dramatically, if you're in everyone's meetings most of tge time.
I’ve always seen her as a goddess of rejuvenation, so related to health. I also certainly see her as logical with her ability to know when it’s worth it to argue something… this is a quality I think a lot of people lack and therefore she stands as a great reminder that it only causes us stress to engage w others who simply want a fight. She was the first of the Norse deities to come to me and I didn’t even know who she was. I thought she was freyja and was just giving me golden apples out of her basket during my meditations as a nice gesture 😂, I had only just begun my Norse polytheist journey, when I realized it was Idunn I was a little stunned because it’s so obviously her. I had no prior knowledge of there even being a goddess who carries a basket of golden apples yet there she was. She’s been a part of my practice ever since.
unanswerable questions are what I'm here for
Any story that involves Loki's shenanigans always cracks me up. Loki is a Saturday morning cartoon, change my mind.
As for the question of death among the Gods, my view is pretty much in full agreement with yours. I've always seen death for us is less of an end but more of a transition to an afterlife, and I don't see why it should be no different for a God.
20% in to the intro and Ocean already had me face palming. I am not sure if you should be celebrated for that or cast out.
My big question is if Idunn's apples are so important to the Gods, why didn't they have some kind of ... Apple watch?
Great video, I'm especially interested in exploring the possible connection between Idunn and healing, that is something I had never considered before.
Very nice dive into Idunn. She seems to me as the youth of the gods in the same way as a child. The curiosity fits well and they can get tricked into a lot of trouble. The innocence of a child can lighten the weight of experience and I've seen some to have a lot of emotional maturity.
As for her marriage to Bragi, the best muse for an artist is the imagination of a child.
I didn’t get the pun at the beginning but that second pun about death was a Hel of a recovery.
Hey Keltoi, I just wanna let you know that you helped me a lot on my journey to find myself again, and for that, I'll always be grateful.
Great video! I love Idunn, she's so sweet and all of my interactions with her have been so nurturing and caring and healing. I would say that you're slightly off in calling her a scientist - she's very much the goddess of children and I find her to be curious in the way that children are, full of wonder at the world, not the sort of categorical detachment that often comes with science. She's a great goddess to call upon for unconditional love and the protection of children, imo. I hope more people are able to discover the gifts she has to offer :)
With the curiosity trait... which I feel like I relate lol... I can only imagine her sitting in that cave with the eagle accepting her situation like "This better be one good hecking apple if I'm stuck talking to a bird." and proceeding to ask the bird all sorts of questions while waiting for her inevitable saving due to her role. I can imagine the patience she shows with Loki in Lokasenna extended to the eagle and she just made the best of her situation. lol... just a weird little insert in my head.
The other thought I had was about the dogs. and the only thing I could think of is the old superstition that dogs licks can heal. And I hope somewhere in Asgard Idunn has a puppy companion to keep her company in her garden.
I have always really liked Idunn and have recently considered bringing her more into my praxis. So I'm glad I stumbled upon this today!
i think the death of gods means something different for different pantheons. But in general i think death for disembodied minds implies a loss of something, like the ability to interact in the same way with the mortal world as before death. So, when Baldr dies he becomes unable to interact with the world in the same way until certain conditions are met, like the ragnarok.
Since they are not omnipotent they sometimes need consent or invitation to enter or leave places, like the domains of hel or a ritual space.
It's possible that among the more intelligent and curious, that Idunn's trust of Loki parallels the same level of missing social cues. Or even acts as a statement to how tricky he could actually be if he's able to elude suspicion by someone who does have an understanding of things through constant observation. Then again, maybe she knew Loki was up to something and just couldn't resist the curiosity of finding out what it was. Comitting to the bit and letting him trick her to discover it recklessly.
To give my 2 cents on the idea of "What happens when the God of Death dies?":
First off, when I think of the gods, in general, I'm not thinking of a uniform kind of being. Some of them emerge from the very nature of the world. Others always were in some form, perhaps changing perhaps just changing in names. Still others did something that elevated themselves to that deific state. So when I think of a God of Death, I don't think of a being that Literally Is Death In Its Entirety, first off because not even the old pagans and other polytheists thought of any one god as the sole god of X phenomena, I think of a being that is in some way integral to the way Death expresses itself in the world, or who has made it so their nature is part of the nature of Death Itself.
Second, I do think that gods can die, and that this can mean a lot more than "cessation of existence". Many religions have cycles of death and rebirth as inherent parts to certain gods. Some religions even have stories of certain gods "moving on" such as the ancient Assyrian/Mesopotamian god El going to join with heaven and passing on earthly rulership to a son, sometimes implied to be a permanent death, other times implied to be moving on to existing on a scale even bigger than what was thought of as gods back then.
So, what happens when a goddess like Hel dies? Well, I'm not too well versed on the esoterica of Hel, so its hard to say. But what I think would be some likely outcomes are her title and duties being passed on to an heir(ess), the "space" for a new god of Death opening up and something else becoming revered as it, Hel will eventually get better and be able to fulfill her place in her world/role, or Hel becoming something so much bigger than we could ever easily hope to comprehend (in comparison to what the gods already are).
Osiris (Egyptian), Yama (Hindu), and Izanami (Japanese) all have stories that say they became death/underworld deities BY dying.
I love listening to you tell these stories. So does my son, who is 10 and curious about heathenry.
I apologize in advance for my long comment I'm excited to talk on these subjects. It is a blessing to find your channel and share in your learnings 🙏🏽
Idun is the godess of that which regenerates. For example she refreshes old things for new generations making each timeline relevant for each incarnation. Time doesn't get old with her.
"Ignore the eagle... Oh gawd, you're gone..." - ROFL... Excellent video my good sir... I'd love to hear more about Idunn... She certainly sounds like my kinda god(ess) ;) Especially the link between her, and science...
It's upg....
But Lokasenna is a tale of Loki's PAIN...
the "celebration" quite likely fits in a timeline just after the imprisonment and exile of Loki's children. Particularly that of Fenrir.(with Loki literally taking a jab at Tyr directly responding to Fenrir)
Loki isn't coy or sly... They're tormented...
Their insults are not only bound in truth Lokasenna literally meaning Loki's TRUTHTELLING... But are an act of retribution.
And one that the gods attempt to placate and even BRIBE to stop...
Even the ones who threatened them, do so half heartedly. Done so out of their own shame and betrayal...
I loved this one - great perspective and insight. Though I must admit, the entire time I was waiting for you to say "How about them apples?" Glad I didn't place a bet or anything
I like to imagine that Bragi is Odin and/or Freyrs court musician and Idunn is her companion singer; and they both take care of the Golden Apple field together
Gotta love the Ian Malcolm reference.
It seems that she may not be the source of life for the gods but their youthfulness, that they may undergo some horrific sped up aging process without her, even if that doesn't necessarily end in their death. The connection to youthfulness may explain the kind of curiosity and naivete expressed in how she interacts with Loki.
I always enjoy your content.
The discussion on what idunn is, and the side topic of the death of the gods was very interesting.
Been watching now for a little bit... rapidly becoming one of my best/favorite sources for discussion. Thanks Ocean!
Goodness gracious Ocean, you're such a great storyteller! Thank you for another amazing video!!
Ahahahaha "All Hel would break loose" gold brother.. very beautiful video. Thank you.
I bet that Idunn brews a mean cider of poetry that Bragi loves.
Persephone comes to mind too.
Like energy nothing really dies, it may change shape or form but it never discipates
I have noticed how much scientific knowledge re ravens is present in Norse myth. Like ravens having uniquely wide vision. Only recently has our science “discovered” this fact. So I started looking for other instances of the same. So, I applied this perspective to Idun’s food associations…
I'm play this on my headphone whilst I be at work today.
Idunn know about you guys but I sure could go for an apple! Great video as always, thanks Ocean man!
To start with the apples and healing, to me this resonates a bit.
To my thinking, if Eir is on the frontline, doing the stitching, the bandaging, the immediate life-saving surgeries and nurse-work of say a hospital, then Idunn is like a yearly checkup of sorts.
On one hand there is the immediate exteriour work of saving lives from discernable emergencies, then there is the chronic interiour that is one's general health and things like prescriptions and medications. The apples in that sense represent that aspect of healing, of dealing with what you got in a way that will allow you to live your life. You could perhaps extend that to mental health, and I think that mental health is very important so this may be something that I do, as well and think of Idunn as the councilor, the one you can talk to and have help with problems you're having that may not be immediately visible.
As for gods dying, I think this can indeed happen. The gods are to me, stories first and foremost. They are characters in stories that ultimately originate in the minds of people, of the ones telling their stories and expanding upon them.
When the stories are no longer told, no longer read, no longer remembered, then they who are imprinted within have died. But death in this sense is not permanent, they can be revived, as we are doing right now by speaking of them.
In this sense, the stories we tell, the youtube videos some may make, are the apples that give these spirits their youth, their life.
And these apples can't be separated from Idunn in the way that my belongings can, for I am mortal. I am, as of yet, not a story but a person in a way that, to me, the gods are not. One can not take King Arthur's sword except to give it back to the lady of the lake (if at least my memory of that is correct). The only way otherwise would be to write your own story, and even then it must take root. We can plant seeds, but we have no idea if the roots will actually take hold. And if they do? Then that is growth, that is living.
The apples and the spirit guarding them are part and parcel of the same thing, their story.
So to me, whether one or the other is the ultimate source of the gods youth is moot.
Someone mentioned before in the comments that to them, the apples giving youth could be interpreted as relevance, an ability to change and grow.
This really works well with me, with what I've said above. If the stories and ideas we tell of the gods are the apples, then our modern interpretation of what these stories mean to us, and thus the way we reform and reconstruct them, are in a way a visible restoration of these gods. A shaking off of cobwebs, getting rid of the dust that no longer makes sense. They are changing and growing just as we are, a reciprocal growth.
I very much agree with your view on Idunn/Eir
It's my opinion that like Ocean said, the gods don't really "die". They'll just be sent to Hel when they get killed. But arguably that might as well be the equivalent of death in a god's eyes since they'll be trapped in one place forever (or arguably until Ragnorok) and cut off from the rest of the the universe unless they're given permission from Hel to interact with it.
I love this channel Haha I'm studying Mesopotamian and Greek Mythology. Your channel is my source of Norse myth for now.
You're helping me research for a book I plan to write. So thanks man.
As much as I'm not into Syncretism. Idunn's responsibilities do remind me of the Queen Mother of the West from the Chinese Pantheon's role in having their roles of immortality/eternal youth for the gods of their respective heavens. Though the difference of couse being the Queen Mother of the West is responsible for peaches instead of apples.
Also Idunn's reaction is what we defintely should aspire from when dealing with Loki/trolls "just ignore them cause reaction is what they want."
I may be loyal to Father Fenrir and Queen Hel, but that doesn't mean loyalty to Lord Loki, maybe.
One more thing. Never apologize for unanswerable questions. To continue to understand our being and the truth of things we must strive to be questioned with things we don't understand yet. So that eventually, we can learn more no matter how long it takes. Knowledge is power but knowledge in of itself is a reward. Understanding is truly a gift. We must always question what we know to understand knowledge and know for the sake of knowing.
As Lord Thoth taught me.
As for the end of all things ... I do believe all things have an end. It's a tragic thing, but a suffering I endure, seeing both of my father figures dying in Ragnarok. So, as sad and tragic things are, I do think everything has an end. But when you brought the death of Hel up ... I don't know. Does she get replaced? I don't know. It's difficult and ... painful to understand and think about. But at the same time, truth isn't always pleasant or easy to take.
Great video as always! I would really like a video on your perspective of how the gods shouldn't be able to die.
Never heard of her o my Gods there are sooo many😊
In a video game called Shin Megami Tensei V, a series where one recruits figures from various mythologies from various races and factions to confront various supernatural threats, one of the beings to make its debut in the series is Idunn; however, her design seems to also take inspiration form Little Red Riding Hood. Considering the inciting incident in the kidnapping of Idunn was how a goddess associated with youth tasked to bring a form of sustenance to an aging relative only to be lured away by a trickster due to her own curisioty, I wondered if Little Red Riding Hood may have possible connections to Idunn.
Hello Ocean! I have been a recent and large fan of your channely, binge watching all your videos. I must thank you because I am someone on a pit of a eccentric polythestic path (thanks for the right words) and oringally had interaction with Christ, as well as entities from many pantheon in my own anecdotal experiences (still trying to poking holes in my logic to make sure I'm not looney) I apologize for the essay but I'm going somewhere. I have recently been guided to learn more about part of my heritage the Norse. And your channel has allowed me to do this quickly and pleasantly. This video, in my opinion, is very revealing, the story of Idunn, revealing that the God's do infact have the potential not only fail but die. That they are much more like is then we know. I also personally believe that this is pure evidence that Idunn represents the lineage of "God's and Goddess" or as I prefer, alien beings we still struggle to comprehend (some of which being interdimensional) having a long lineage long before our history attempted to record these story's, these stories all being a combination of truth and allegory. Also showing that perhaps the pantheons ruled over their substrates and their land, and perhaps there is an order or turns being taken in which pantheon had an extended reach of influence over the world. Which would mean Yähwĕ, Yeshua and the saints would be the current ones in charge.
Dammit Loki... give the bell back
Great video! I knew very little about her. I do think it makes sense that the gods don't truly die, but without the sense of youthfulness, inquisitivness, and exploration eternal life goes from timeless wonder to quite dull and even morbid to the soul and personal growth. I don't know many myths or tales when a human was given immortality that did not tire of existence. Maybe it has more to do with that, a sense of grounding in eternal youth in the universe and life is viewed, keeping life with living and engaging in, rather than staving off physical death.
Very thought provoking! Love your content! 🖤
The story of the sons of Tuirenn and Lugh assigning impossible tasks to them really caught my attention. Doesn't that seem similar to the 12 tasks of Hercules from Greek mythology?
and he too was tasked with stealing some apples
It has a very similar feel. I note a book that contains the legend in the description if you want to chase it down for yourself.
Thank you that i always learn something new from you..Greetings from Germany ❤🙋♀️
Idunno how this is going to go but I am youthfully looking forward to this video.
If apples might be a metaphor for knowledge, then I wonder if Idunn might be a keeper *Explicitly.* Like a librarian that doesn't read. Not that she can't, or doesn't have an interest, but that she isn't known for it. Isn't a bookworm. (Apple-worm?) How then, might her character be interpreted if seen through this lens? Might she be the keeper of immortality because she can keep the oral tradition of the knowledge of immortality? That she knows things, but is a trusted keeper of secrets? A confidant? I'm not sure, I'm just riffing on the wonderful episode. Thanks, Ocean for some stories of Idunn.
I wish I got off work in time to catch these live.
When I read that story I was frustrated because it looked like heavy outside influence, I know as you already covered the influence of other religions was heavy but too often I felt "yep, here's a splash of christian or greek wash"... especially with the apple that can grant immortality/healing of all wounds.
But I like your extraction of meaning from Idunn, and I think the gods can die but it takes a lot to kill one.
Bragi and Idunn...
A poet and a scientist.
Interesting couple
I think it may have been Loki’s master plan all along. To use the gods to destroy his enemy after his own defeat.
You know what the say. An apple a day keeps immortality away.... Also doctors... And apparently heart disease too
I think Idunn being a goddess of discovery/science makes sense. Also, she doesn't seem to hold a grudge to Loki, which makes me think she believes/knows Loki is necessary balancing force in Asgard, and thus she tolerates his shannigans, even when they inconvenience her.
I feel like her gift of imortality, her curiosity and general personality...is simply that of a child's disposition.
You said that she is possibly "older than even Oðin himself". What comes before wisdom? Childhood. And one who is ever young may grow old, but doesn't necessarily have to grow *up*. And youth is a matter of disposition, in a way. 🤷🏻 Ymmv tho
On a somewhat more serious note: I believe it is of note that she is married to a poet-god, making the gods' longevity in some way tied to them being spoken about but also, perhaps, to inspiration itself. As it is my personal belief that deities do not necessarily stop influencing the world when their worship stops (or start when it starts, for that matter), through inspiration and stories we tell they continue being intertwined with the human consciousness with different names and faces.
Every Internet user needs a figure of Idunn on their desk. Perhaps that shall provide some reason to the discourse.
I know little re Viking beliefs. But when I heard this story I wondered if Idun was assoc w apples, walnuts-both good food in the winter and assoc w longevity. Since Idun has the feel of very ancient times, maybe she has knowledge re formation of a planet in perfect balance for seasonal nutritional needs and literally is the key to that precious knowledge.
On a related note, this seems more in line with her being a healer's deity, not an immortality deity, or a curiosity deity.
Hi Ocean, do you ever plan on addressing Loki's gender fluidity? There is a Norwegian series "Ragnarok" where Loki is explicitly gender fluid and the main series Loki also suggests it. It would be a good topic.
I've mentioned it in two videos so far when bringing up something relevant to that:
The Mjolnir video here references a story where we see Loki's gender fluidity taking place: ua-cam.com/video/ck49KRxWZtQ/v-deo.html
And in this video where I discuss Njordr and the possibilities of him as a transmasculine deity: ua-cam.com/video/6qDNTs3XG9o/v-deo.html
I've seen a goddess pop up once or twice along the Danube, she seems strangely similar to Persephone, but has apples in her lap. The name on locations associsted with her is Erecura (or something similar) and I wonder if, even if they aren't direct cognates, this goddess is a reconciliation of some Germanic Romans trying to form a syncretic practice.
Given that cthonic goddesses in Greece are often associated with rebirth and new life... it just makes me want to do further research.
It is amazing how each ancient pantheon had at least one female deity which was tricked and kidnapped by a male one for some nefarious reason... And in many of them, this type of divine machismo seemed to be just business as usual. Apart from that, the apples of youth that keep the gods immortal somewhat resemble the apple that poor Eve was tricked into picking from the tree of knowledge in paradise, in a sense that both these apples carry a gift of such power, they are coveted as essential by the Norse gods, while the biblical one found them so unsuitable for humans to have, we are believed by many to be paying for that mistake ever since. 🙄 Apples often carry such deep and mystical symbolism in various ancient religious systems, I think a video about the fruit and other divine nourishment in the ancient world and their symbolism would be very interesting.
Btw, I find your videos both very informative and highly entertaining, and watching them always gives me great joy. The fact that you do not pretend to have all the answers and leave many aspects open for us to think about rather than selling your views as the only truth is very refreshing. I don't come to passively consume but to learn and be left with ideas and thoughts to pursue further. Keep going! 🔥
So funny you did a video on Idunn. Not sure if you have ever watched or heard of the show, "The Almighty Johnsons". It's about the Norse gods/goddesses being reincarnated into humans.. Half way through the first season they have a few episodes about Idunn and Bragi .
It's amazing what you come across when you've been sitting around with a broke leg for over 2 months 😂😂
Another great video, entertaining and informative as always.
I love the concept the gods could die. That their long lives are only bestowed upon them. Even Hel was only given the task to rule Helheim, but the realm of the dead was there before the Queen arrived. This is what truly connected me to this belief. I came from a catholic background that wanted its followers to try to achieve “perfection” but it never rang true with me. Why would I want to be the same as a god. Finding the Aesir was like finding choice. I don’t have to follow Odin. I don’t have to agree with what he does. When I was younger I used to be impressed with his trickery in his failed attempt to get what wanted. Then I followed Thor because why wouldn’t I follow a more honest and fair god. Now that I am I am in my 40s I follow my goddess. Frejya. I love her and love that I communicate with her more closely than I ever had with a male god. I have had dreams of her yelling at me for not following my faith to the fullest. She left and said if I wanted her back I will have to ask her to come back. These moments have empowered me more than just following a faith and memorizing what to say along with everyone else in a room. This is my belief and I look forward to seeing my goddess in Hel with me when I die. Great post Ocean, I’m looking forward to your next one.
I'm getting Persephone/demeter vibes. Like there's supposed to be a story about the seasons associated with her. And then she just disappears from the story after Loki steals her back, it feels like we're missing a chunk between the fire trap and the daughter showing up. As it is the story is just a really long way of explaining why there's those two stars in the sky, and to not be foolish like Loki.
It's not that the gods grow old and die without her. It's like Thor needing special gloves to use mjolnir. Without her the gods lose access to the power of their *own* youths, which weakens them severely, which makes them hide in Asgard, which brings on Ragnarok faster.
Also, I'll take your curiosity and science aspects and present you with the concept of youthful curiosity. And naivete. And I always read it more as Pride anyway, like how could there be better apples than mine? So it's either she's too naive to know better than to just wander off alone with Loki, or she's prideful and Loki knew just how to push her buttons, and her composure and behavior during that last party makes me lean toward the latter personality style.
Idunno what I expected from that opening pun...
Nice reverse psychology right at the end there. Good thing I rang the bell back when i could. 😂
Nobody.
Loki seeing a big stick, "ahhh a great weapon"
On the subject of Norse Gods dying, as in they stop existing in this plain of reality, I think it’s interesting that Jotun clearly do: Thiazi's death is a (for a lack of a better term) a plot point in following story about mountain Jotun Skadi's quest for revenge. But when Baldr dies, "he" goes to Hel but there’s also a body left behind to make a funeral with. Do is what is in Hel just his soul? With his other brother Hodr, who is also explicitly stated to have died? Do the souls of Jotun go to Hel when they die too?
Also, another interesting point is that Gods are at least born, to give one example, Thor is the son of Odin, does that mean that Thor did not exist before being born, and before his own father was born? - irony of ironies, preexistence of the human soul is an important philosophical concept in Christian theology
Idun's apples kinda sounds like Edin's apples strange how so many things in different religions resonate and how when with an open mind look into all of them they like explains so much and gives us a full picture but when only following one religion blindly they are just stories until you put them together and see the similarities and connect the dots
Everything dies and nothing dies. Depends on what you mean by "dying" for any given being/context. You can even make a scientific analogy with this (possibly honoring Idunn): What are we that makes up this life and what is it that survives/decomposes after the cessation of vital organistic functions?
Honestly, when I first read the myths I interpreted Idunn's willingness to go with Loki as being more a case of naïvete and childlike curiosity? Which would fit with her as a goddess of youth and youthfulness. In keeping her own youth and maintaining that of the gods' she might retain some of that youthful innocence - but the young can also be sharp and cuttingly aware at times. I suppose it depends when Loki dragging everyone fits against him getting her kidnapped, given that at least in Snorri's telling, there seems to be some kind of a chronology for some of the myths. Then again, he might have added that to try to make them seem more like mere mortals living in a time frame rather than genuine divinities, in which case your analysis would be a better fit.
Placing the emphasis of Iðunn on the u sounds off. The emphasis (stress?) is on the I. Same with Lokasenna, emphasis is on the first syllable, in this case the o (just like in the name Loki).
I probably get a bit too nitpicky with languages sometimes. 😆
Anyway, the concept of death and how it applies to gods is definitely interesting. The Baldr myth describes a god dying, but also describes his situation after death. Similarly the Ragnarok myth talks about several gods dying, but also of a dead god coming back to life.
In essence I'd say that, yes, gods can die, but dying isn't an end, it's merely a change in your state of being. In a manner I guess this is the same as how most faiths and mythologies treat human (and animal) death: the animating spark that is YOU is gone from this world, but it's not gone from existance.
I did have something vaguely intelligent to comment but you distracted me with that reference at the end lol.
Golding Apple are easy to make, but are you willing to wait. Often picked before they are ripe placed in an environment where they can mature for a few months.usually wrapped In tightly bound cloth.The skin turns from green to golden. Hidden from sunlight. Most people use newspapers these days with the Apples placed in wicker baskets. they make for fantastic eating and preserves. I wonder if this is what idunn did? I wonder the chemistry involved? Especially love the bit where Thor is reminded to have a bite or too as he often neglects too. Kidnapping and treachery don’t surprise me neither. Because what in all the halls of Asgard were they to do without idunn? The gods would age as the tale goes and and under the cracks mortal men show. Idunn helped the aesir and Vanir alike. without her, time would have meant a darker side to existence. because if a god can loose immortality then no one is above death. Not even Odin. Glad that they got the lady with the Apples back. Making for a wonderful tale. Prehaps even one of the finest tales in the sagas. Another occasion Loki in fact helped out, if I recall correctly. if by a mishap. Great stuff! if gods can die the then there is a tale post ragnarok that implies what happens in the hall bauldr builds. If hel was to die the we all would return to nothing.Much like a flash in the pan. Here then not. Some people refer to dying twice. Once from life the other from memory. Maybe this is what would happen?
Nahalennia sounds a bit like Helen of Troy who after some time was canonised into a goddesses in her own right. I’m just wondering the connection. All because of the indo - European route of the words. Helen means light, nahelennia in Latin must mean something similar. Could even be referred to a special kind of light. We know now day light can be split into wavelengths. I wonder if this is another hidden secret? There’s always a bit of truth those old tales it is just a question of what truth’s there actually presents. Idunn can also mean light, or the eternal light depending upon linguistic in use. So perhaps it has something to do with the power of light itself? Or even the nature of it? I won’t go as mad as saying “subatomic particles”,but you get an idea of where this is going! We all age due to senesces. Had idunn found a way to halt senesces? To be a god in many of a tale, you had to be a force of nature. idunn was on such force. Without her no life would grow, no springs would flow. the gods would wither away. So without the light from idunns apple’s strange thing would happen. I imagine there something that in the Apples once prepped which reacted with sunlight stopping senesces. I know plenty a tale of gods dying. Like the god who was killed with his drinking mug after being swatted over the head. bauldr after hodr kill him with a spear of mistletoe, due to Loki’s antics with Freya. Rarely do they of old age though. So I’d wager idunn was the life blood of the gods? without her, they wither, age and die! as she knew all the secrets, many would forget in war, lust, and battles over the feasting tables. It curious what hides in these old tales and how it has a reflection even today. on the way each and everyone of us act a behaves. So skol to all who seek the truth and a everlasting light.
I forget where I heard that point about Idunn herself being the catalyst for the Gods' renewal, but it made the point that the Jotuns want HER, not her apples. The apples mean nothing unless given by her hands. It might have been either Krasskova's book or Aswynn's book. Hmm. I tend to think the tale of Ragnarok yet to happen makes it clear that Gods can die, but the version I heard was from Kevin Crossley-Holland's book of the Norse myths, and it does acknowledge that most versions of the myth discussing Ragnarok are monotheist-influenced, with the warm and fuzzy story of the apocalyptic and catastrophic destruction of the entirety of the cosmos.
In my personal thinking is that the gods only die a true death is when they die in prophecy, and idunn and her apples keep the gods young, fit and powerful while the gods can age they can’t die from it, age just means weakness.
It's refreshing hearing someone propose 'curiosity' as her motivating factor rather than 'jealousy' which seems to be the only take I hear. Curiosity I think makes way more sense.
Wait how is jealousy proposed? I didnt come across that take. That seems like it would be a leap to me.
@@OceanKeltoi in the version I read as a kid (I could not tell you what version that was) she was presented as jealous that someone else could possibly have apples like hers. Blinded by that jealousy she didn't think to second guess Loki. So jealous in the 'only I can have the youth apples sense', potentially worried about her power being threatened by a rival.
@@aalin5701 That's interesting. The Prose Edda does not seem to ascribe motivation to Idunn. At lest not directly. My supposing curiosity has to do with how Loki poses the question. Reading jealousy into that isn't something I would agree with.
@@OceanKeltoi good because the jealous woman trope is frankly tired and dull. Where as curiosity adds something
I always wondered if the apples had any link to the mead of poetry. They could both be symbols of the elixir of life just like ambrosia in greek mythology.
If each god represents an idea, then at some point there'd be an immortality deity. Although ideas can't die, unless they're forgotten, nobody needs to know that.
Personally I see her association with youth to be tied with that which makes life worth-living. In my mind she is tied with forgetting and yet not truly forgetting, an ignorance which for ever-lasting beings would be the source of their youth, associated with maintaining the drive and wonder of youth which is present in curiosity as well. She is hope made incarnate which is why despite her wise nature she is convinced by Loki's off-chance. She is what keeps the Gods true to who they want to remain or become despite the growth of knowledge and the passage of time, which is why she is represented as helping in knowing when to pick a fight. That is my understanding of Idunn. I would reach out to her in a moment where I can't recognize myself anymore or when I feel pulled in whichever direction or again face disillusionment or apathy or pretty much anything that is unwelcome and was at any point uncharacteristic. She who keeps the Gods centered within their truest selves and not slaves of their past, that's why she is the life-force of the Gods, in my mind at least. Let me rephrase her incarnation, she isn't the only source of hope after all. In a single word she is innocence, and her presence keeps the Gods from losing theirs. Wouldn't you say a loss of innocence is a loss of youth, especially for an Immortal? I wouldn't define her as the Ever-Young Goddess of Immortality but the Ever-Young Goddess of Innocence. Try it on for size, maybe it can resonate with you too.
Well ancient Swedish state the gods will live forever. It was the Icelandic myths that state many gods die during Ragnorak.
But Iduun as the goddess of youth could also be a relation to her other associations. She also was a cupbearer like Hebe from Greek Myth but also a goddess of spring. Spring is the season of new beginning and renewal. So it could be seen that her apples of youth were the power of spring from the Aesir and Vanir gods.
Many myths state the gods needed to consume something to stay young or perform purification rituals to cleanse themselves of their old age.
YES
"Ignore the eagle...oh God you're gone" it really isn't hard imagining that that is exactly how that event went down.
Brilliant re: the consequences. Baldr doesn't actually die, he just changes location. What does this mean for all the gods who die at Ragnarok?
My personal hypothesis is that it's not that the Gods can truly die. It's that Idunn is the Goddess of that immortal quality of the Gods. A Goddess of what the Greeks would called Zoe (the immortal generative force of life) as opposed to Bios (dying life or individual mortal lives). Quite interestingly, in Greece there are also golden apples and they have similar connotations
maybe they never die but can grow old and weak and vulnerable she could be a source of rejuvenation giving them their vigor back. imagine being forever living and forever ageing it would suck by giving the gods their youth back she would insuror that the Aesir continue to function as for why she is the goddess of youth perhaps her unbiased youthful curiosity makes it so she never becomes world weary and thus never tiring of life she never ages, and perhaps like how Odin gives his eye for wisdom she must be permanently a little naive to retain this unbiased curiosity, this romance of always seeing every thing in a new way, like its the first time would complement a god of poetry well i should think ...