This was wonderful. I just purchased my first integrated tube amp out of curiosity. I have not found much clarity in describing the difference in the sound of solid state and tubes. More important to me was your explanation of old sound and new sound. Understanding the design goal of old sound and new sound amps makes building a personally pleasing system more straight forward.
Thank you for the prima Luna and “why tubes” “not reviews”. Excellent. I purchased the Buchardt S400 last year. Tried many solid state amp and I could never tell the difference. I’ve had the Prima Luna Evo 200 for about 3 weeks now and WOW! I never new the speakers could just disappear. Soundstage! Detail! Just fantastic. But I did change the EL34 Tubes to KT88 (gold lion) Thank you Thomas. Can’t wait for your Evo400 review.
These Prima Luna's have been around since at least 2008 or so. 35 watts of tube power is sufficient to drive most speakers. Forget the solid state 100 watt power requirement, for tube power doesn't compare to solid state power. Tubes rule!
I am getting stunning holographic sound with my Prima luna prologue Kt88.voices project forward into the room with extraordinary realism .bass issues can be addressed with a room corrected solid state sub.
I had the Prologue Pre/Power and the Dialogue integrated in the past. Unfortunately this was before the KT120/KT150 tubes came in the market so i didn't get to experience the PrimaLuna with those new powerful tubes. They are build like a tank and no knowledge of tubes and how to bias is necessary so they are perfect for people who are new with tubes. With a touch of hyperbole i would call them "Tubes for Dummies" lol The flexibility to change different types of tubes also helps a lot to fine tune to your taste. They are not cheap but you get what you pay for. At the time that i had them in combination with a PCM1704 dac the sound was very smooth and inviting, with good detail but still tube like sound.
Watch your power transformer go up in smoke. Those tubes require more heater current than 6CA7/EL34?KT77 types and would only yield a few more watts at best. KT120s will bias up about the same as a vintage 6550s and you'll need bigger iron for more power.
I’ve had a Yaqin for 6 or so years paired with Snell Type E/I and have been very impressed (and pleased) with the results. I upgraded the tubes to SED winged C and became even more content with the sound. The Yaqin produces a deep and wide holographic soundstage with warm musicality throughout the entire sound spectrum. It is not picky about the music you play through it and will allow you to enjoy even badly recorded music from the 1920’s and will wonderfully bring it to life once again. Currently, I am using a Sonic Frontiers SFS-40 and although it is a much more expensive and higher-end amp the sound is not “that” much better. It has a bit more clarity and bass control on the Tannoy Cheviots that I’ve paired it with but I wouldn’t say it’s in any way greatly superior, just a bit different in sound characteristics. I bought the SF as an upgrade which in some ways but not to the degree that I am convinced to get rid of the Yaqin. The Yaqin produces 50wpc which is more than enough unless you have a very large room or inefficient speakers. With the size of the transformers on the Yaqin it is more than capable of handling speakers with difficult impedance loads too. It won’t produce the taught slam of SS but it will keep you in front of your stereo longer, undistracted , and happily enjoying your music, which is the whole point of this hobby (something many audiophiles forget as it seems they merely use well recorded but boring artists like Nora Jones as an excuse to listen gear and not music). I couldn’t recommend this amp more.
Hi Thomas. I have written you before about how much I enjoy your commentary on UA-cam (hereinafter YT). Thomas I wish that you lived in the Albuquerque area for the reason that I would really enjoy forming a friendship with you. Your personality is quite warm and friendly combined with your intellect. I believe that I would really enjoy having dialogue with you about multiple topics including but not limited to music, current events, literature and more. In summary, I have formed the impression that you are, to use a bougie phrase, a GREAT GUY. Thanks Thomas.
Thanks Ronald, for the compliment yes I have made friends with a few local subscribers. I am a very easy going guy and part of my goal of making this channel was to have a virtual water cooler chat every once in a while with passionate people.
Hey Thomas! I'm a 59 year old Aussie gay guy from Australia! I was a club DJ for 40 years so I've seen the best and worst! I've been playing with electronics all my life and received my first electric shock when I was 4 years old! The 60s and 70s were the tube era at its best! Friends gave me old valve or tube sets as I grew up from radios to some beautiful valve amplifiers. Unfortunately one night while I was at work the house caught fire! The only things that survived were my Leak, Valve Point One Stereo system which was being restored at the time plus my record collection as it was stored in the garage along with all my CDs! I still get teary eyed but shit happens! I own a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier and the EL34 output valves sound excellent running into a pair of bookshelf Wharfedale speakers and the whole sound stage is stunning! I've driven other speakers with this amplifier and obviously the bass section is more prominent in bigger speakers but the Wharfedale speakers sound clean and accurate! Having auto bias on a tube amp to me is a blessing! I've deliberately altered the bias on some tube amps and the crossover distortion is obvious past say 5% either way! With NOS tubes you're gambling with your wallet! A friend of mine bought some NOS KT88s. Eight in all but they sounded weird?? After checking them in a tube tester, their emission rate was what, 40% at best! He'd blown over a grand on tubes that had been thrashed to death! The getters would've been a clue as they were brown and tired looking! The Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier I own is wonderful! The build quality alone is enough to buy one and the stock EL34 output valves sound excellent running into any speaker! I have tube rolled and the KT120s give you a bit more punch but the KT150s don't sound any better to me and even then they're too tall to fit the tube guard back in place which I like! I'm running a new, never been in a club Technics SL1200 MK2 Turntable fitted with an Ortofon cartridge and the pre-amp is an english Cambridge because I wanted the amp stock! You can turn the volume up full and all you can hear is a faint hiss but when playing vinyl, I wanted to hear if the pre-amp was adding anything which it's not. I can't get the volume level much past 10.00 o'clock on the Tuner, CD player or Turntable anyway without risking hearing damage. It's got plenty of head room! As I say, when I win Lotto things will be change but Primaluna will be a part of my setup! Cheers from down under, Andrew!
Really enjoyed this video, and agree with your thoughts. I am a happy owner of *both* a Prima Luna DialoGue One and a McIntosh MA8900. I can see pros and cons in both, so that is why I use both. Curious to learn more about the new Evolution series from Prima Luna.
Haha, your friend set you up. "Here try this Prima Luna I'm selling", "Oh, I actually really like this amp. I might buy it from you", "Wait, you like it? Eh, sorry. Not for sale any more".
put a set of production Gold Lion kt88s in my primal luna prologue 5.Extraordinary improvement in detail and bass. The amp " sings" now. tubes require a 72 hour burn in.
After research I feel like PrimaLuna is the only high end tube amp where you get what you paid for. maybe more. I never buy into brands but i love what the brand stand for and the quality of the manufacturing and the parts in their product. It's the first time i don't feel like upgrading something when i'll buy it.
Well done on review and I've got Primaluma preamp and yakin 100b Power tube amplifier and it has a sublime sound quality for low cost compared to £5k amplifier but you must use high quality tubes. Gold lion tubes
Hello, Thanks for another great 'real' perspective on gear. Also, thanks for mentioning the Freya; I've been wondering about pairing it w/my FirstWatt and I think your description of it helped out. I'll be getting it now.
Thank you very much Thomas. I have to think it over, i may go for the Schiit option in the near future, even though i agree that it is an over kill with these speakers. Thanks again and have a good week.
I've paired the Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer with the Mcintosh MC152 poweramp and they sound amazing and glorious!!! I don't know if connecting the tube buffer directly to the poweramp (without preamp) can cause any harm to the Mcintosh poweramp but they produce unbelievably impressive sound.
It should be fine without the preamp, best check with mcintosh if you are not sure. Never tried the SD-CD3 but Yaqin has been making some nice sounding gears at very affordable price.
Great video as always Thomas! I have that exact amp fitted with gold lion tubes, paired to a pair of spatial audio M4 speakers and a Rel T7 sub. Pure Bliss. The systems ability to reproduce accurate size, space and dynamics is so enjoyable! Overtones are rendered flawlessly and instruments tamber and size are spot on. As a musician it's exactly what I always wanted to hear from my system and I can't see myself changing anything other than moving up the spatial line when funds allow.
I do agree there are 2 sounds. I repair, build and engineer tube audio. There are many reasons for that sound difference. Also the Prima Luna is excellent equipment. I have modified the bias on mine so I can push the output tubes however excellent either way. Mine sounded best with a Quad of Genalex KT88 from the early 1960's. I also replaced my 12ax7 tubes with GE 5751.
I’m with you. My preference is somewhere in the between warmth and detail. That’s why I love my Jolida hybrid integrated. It strikes a very good balance for the money.
Great video Thomas. So, if you rolled tubes on the PrimaLuna, could you actually capture that "old sound" as well? That way, you could have the best of both worlds? I really want to try out PrimaLuna but that is concerning for me. Thanks
After about 11 months of research, reading reviews, watching UA-cam videos, asking friends and trying gear out in stores, I bought the Primaluna DiaLogue Premium in November 2018 and I'm very satisfied that I made the right choice for me and my needs. Oddly enough, Primaluna was the one brand that I was interested in that I could not try in person locally. I'd long decided on a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II (I was waiting to move into new house), but in the end Kevin Deal's video about Primaluna's point-to-point wiring, exotic parts and not having to retube it every 12 months convinced me that Primaluna was probably the right way to go. The Cronus Magnum II is a great amp, and powerful, but it runs the tubes too hot and they need to be replaced frequently. The build on Primaluna products is *quite good* and the power switch, the input selector and the remote feel fantastic in a tactical sense and it's as heavy as an anvil. I would say to anyone interested that watching Upscale Audio's videos are a MUST before you pull the trigger on a tube amp. He's one of the best salesmen I've ever witnessed. His spiel is perfection, what a character, but the thing is, he's genuinely excited about Primaluna gear. It would be impossible to fake that sort of articulated enthusiasm. He sure sold me, I'll say that much. If you have a larger space, you'll want the HP model. The DiaLogue Premium will go pretty loud, but hard to drive speakers need not apply. If my room was even slightly larger I'd have gone for the HP. Now on to new speakers. So far leaning towards another Kevin Deal recommendation the Tannoy Revolution 8XTF.
Yup, Kevin is an amazing and passionate salesman. I am tempted to pick up the 8XTF too as I have found one used at $1500 but a good 4 hours drive so I am hesitant. Congrats on your prima, I am still waiting to get my hands on a higher end one to try.
I know I am a little late to the game here, but I just want to point out that wattage output has almost nothing to do with bass. As long as you have enough wattage from your amplifier to drive your speakers to 6db above your normal listening level, you should be fine. The lack of bass is probably coming from several other factors, but output power is not one of them.
Hi Thomas great video. You mentioned about trying the higher end stuff in the future the future is here, Do you plan on trying the EVO 400 Amp? there are no review that I can find?
I have already tried the EVO400 which I showed at the end of the Cayin CS55A video. I also have the Cayin CS845A video coming soon. EVO 400, good for a lot of people but not for everyone.
Thanks, I noticed I don't do detail reviews but rather what I learn from each equipment i played with. I think I need to have a check list going forward, like I did not even talk about soundstage, imaging and so forth in this video !
My favorite tubes are the Siemens EL34. They are NOS, but Mesa Engineering (a guitar amp company) tests and labels the NOS tubes as STR-450. I really liked the PrimaLuna but went with the Cary Audio SLI-80, also a point to point handwired amp that runs in triode mode and ultra linear mode. It sounds amazing through the Buchardt S400.
cosmo naut I love the Cary SLi 80 but sadly I sold it due to sounding way too solid state’ish. Good tube amp for sure but the Cayin A88T MK3 sounds way better! 😉
Thomas, I have watched enough hi end related videos that I just want to express my general gratitude for your work, detailed yet easy digestable without any mannerisms. Your philosophical musings and honest opinion without being blunt are much appreciated. I think it could be an age related thing (how old are you tho 😉). Nonetheless cheers to your excellent work and hope to see channel prosper further 🥂
I had both these integrated amplifiers. To me the Prima Luna Prologue One along with Vintage KLH model 5 sounded better than Yaqqin. I was also worried about the biasing on Yaqin. Yes , I use vintage tubes like Philips EL 34 Made in Germany. They do have a 3 dimensional imaging capability under ideal conditions.
Hi Thomas, great video and down to earth analysis. Thank you. I think that it is fun to experiment with different gear and cables to learn what they can do to the music. Until one hears something and have someone points out that this is what it is called, it is difficult to imagine what that experience is, such as your term holographic, or perhaps air or soundstage? We bought a PL Prologue Premium a few years ago, the tubes that came with it were fine, then one of them blew after a few months and I bought another set of PL tubes (2X5AR4 and 4X12AU7) with gold labels. They were less than ideal. A few days ago I bought a set of Mullard (Russian made) and the music came alive. I can hear much more details, clarity as well as really nice solid soundstage, the bass is much better than before because I can hear the notes in the double bass and bass guitar clearly. The system has never been better. I use Chord Qutest, with AudioLab monoblocks and Celestion A2. They are relatively inexpensive gear but the sound is very satisfying. Part of the fun is to swap gear with friends and try a few things to find out what one really enjoys. As you mentioned, we have different preferences afterall. Look forward to more of your reviews.
I listened to a tube rolled PrimaLuna Evo400 integrated (and the same with stock tubes) and the Line Magnetic LM805IA absolutely trashed it even with OEM tubes. Not even close. Sound stage, detail, linearity, resolution, refinement, bass punch, and that holographic magic. LM was clearly better in every category. 48 watts of true SET power! 88lbs! Try the LM845IA or LM805IA from Line Magnetic, Thomas! You’ll be glad you did!! 👍😊
Nice discussion! I prefer the old sound myself. Agree about the bass. I have a tube 50 watt x 2 on some old JBL titanium tweeter floorstanders that are 90db sensitive and I still have to push the volume to get dynamic bass. The bass drivers have 7.5 pound magnets on each, so they can put out some serious bass. Dying to roll some TUBES, but got to save the pennies first, lol!
Primaluna with a mix of Gold Lion, Tungsram, RCA, or Brimar as 12AX7 and 12AU7 can make it warmer, even more holographic and punchier in the bass at the same time, even with EL34s in the back. Of course KT120s will expand in every direction a bit more but the input tubes make all the difference in sound quality.
Primaluna is made by Sparks in China which they also make Cayin amps. Sparks also makes amps for other lesser names in tube audio. The issue with Primaluna is their so called “auto bias” electronic issue which tends to fail and cause issues. Primaluna is trying to eliminate the guess work of biasing tubes etc. IMO Cayin is way of a better option than higher priced item from Primaluna. Yaqin, Audio Space Galaxy, etc are other nice options to consider. As always, your video content is awesome to the audio community
Thanks, I am always curious about Cayin. Since like a well made product that will perform above it's price. Problem with them is whenever I come across one at a good price, they get sold really fast.
Rumours had it at one point long time ago, PL was made in the Cayin factory. Now, maybe things have changed. From memory of listening to Cayin and PL, they don't sound the same.
I have just bought the prima luna evo integrated 100 amp, about 200 hours play time so far. With my focal speakers I have to say it is the best sound I have ever heard. I wanted to ask. Are there any DAC do's or don'ts for valve amps particularly Integrated ones?
the prima luna prologue 5 is really well made. top drawer construction. definitely has the holographic sound you discuss with the kt88 tubes it came with ,great detail which i like.curious about the tubes your freinds have has best results with among current production ones.maybe kt 120?really enjoy your talks.
Thomas, you are good to listen to. I seem to remember that Prima Luna can run different tubes besides the EL-34. If you like the more "modern analytical" sound, try KT-77's. Tighter bass, more extended on top. Not as squishy.
I bought a YaYi tube integrated amp a few years ago, direct from China. (4) EL34 power tubes, same as a Marshall guitar amp! And (2) 7025 preamp tubes. Paid less than $200 SHIPPED to San Francisco and it's built like a tank with wonderful fidelity. Especially after getting a matched quad of Russian made military grade Sovtek EL34's and 7025's
Hi Thomas, There's a 3rd reference point worth keeping in the conversation: Real (or true to source). Warmth vs. detail is a false dichotomy. I know that's the continuum audiophiles often use, but it's not the whole story. How "detailed" is Real? How "warm" is Real? I'd rather get closer to the source (what was recorded in the studio) then closer to anything else. That should sound good. Keep in mind, however, in studios instruments are often close miked, so they will sound more detailed than in "real life" (while listening to a live performance at a normal distance). So, extra detail is what we often should hear, because it's on the recording.
i dont mean to be off topic but does any of you know a way to log back into an Instagram account..? I somehow forgot the password. I would appreciate any assistance you can offer me
@Isaiah Marcel thanks for your reply. I found the site on google and im waiting for the hacking stuff now. I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
@Isaiah Marcel DAMN IT REALLY WORKED! Literally hacked my ig login after roughly 40 minutes by using the site. I had to pay 15$ but for sure worth it :) Thanks so much, you really help me out :D
Hey Thomas. Do you have any experience with rotel or b&K? Any thoughts ? I’m looking at used options of those as they seem to be good value for my budget .
Wellim trying to find decent power for towers. I either need cheap ave with pre out to power amp or run all HDMI to tv then toslink out to pre to power. Accomplishing this under $600 isn't easy unless going used/ vintage
Just stumbled upon your channel. My previous amplifiers were Atma-shpere M60 monoblocks with entry level Prima Prologue preamp . With home made Dynaudio 3 way system and proper speaker placement the equipment disappeared leaving you in a realistic detailed audio experience. Atma-spheres are power hogs consuming 300 watts per chassis. Atma-speres I found to be hard on tubes. Tube availability was also getting difficult and expensive to deal with. Tried Tripath T-class which produce no heat and gave a similar "airy" presentation until pushed too hard...the sound quality fell apart rapidly. I was finally able to purchase the PrimaLuna Premium Dialogue HP power amp with Dialogue Premium preamp. This system is now driving JBL 4425 studio monitors on Kenrick style stands. I am using KT77 power tubes and they are barely working hard. The sound is effortless, detailed and puts you right into the recording venue. I have operated this system for 2 years with no noticeable wear on tubes and look forward to much more listening enjoyment. I also have an excellent source on quality tested and matched tubes when the need arises. Audio Bliss!
So another happy Prima Luna owner. Thanks for sharing, you have a very nice setup now. Do you find it less airy than the M60? I listened to the EVO400 and found it so 'clean' that it's almost solid state sounding.
When the M60's are working correctly the notes of music seem to have space between them. My amps have not performed well for years so they sit on sides of listening room. No A-B comparison could be made.For much less money I could have shipped them back to St Paul for a complete rebuild with new warranty but I chose a system with active tube monitoring and biasing. Mark Gilmore of Granite Audio stated he would never use an Atma-sphere without active bias on each power tube. I agree fully as the Atma's would blow a triode section unbalancing its performance. Too hard and expensive to live with. My God, the MA-3's with 42 power tubes per chassis would be a bitch to live with. OTL's offer an "openness" of sound that no other system can match but at a huge cost to maintain. I have not heard the new EVO iteration of PrimaLuna. I am so satisfied with the rock solid performance of the Dialogue Premium HP that I don't need more. The Dialogue was originally ordered with KT120's and the stock EL-34's. Talking with Kevin Deal he stated the EL-34 is a much more musical tube, which it is. The KT-77 is the highest rated EL-34 available and that is what I am now using. I added a Manley Labs Chinook phono stage with a VPI HR-X turntable with 12 inch carbon fiber tone arm and Kiseki Purple Heart NS cartridge. The turntable is 130 pounds on a 100 lb granite slab spiked to the floor. This is one bad ass vinyl setup which sounds OTL like, music coming out of empty space. Enjoy the Music.@@ThomasAndStereo
The Yaqin 10L benefits greatly if you up grade the coupling caps (100n 300v on your MK2) , also up grade the tubes, those stock Shuguangs are very poor, you can't buy worst tubes than those! Try replacing the 6N1P's with E88CC Tesla if you can find any, as for the power tubes the current favourite is the Gold Lion KT77 also the EH 6CA7 is note worthy. Changing the volume pot for a Alps type 27 Blue (use 50k Log) is another worth while mod. Good luck.
I remember seeing videos on modding the Yaqin and I did consider it. For the Yaqin, we actually had 2, The 10L and the then the newer one. We did try tube rolling and yes it did help with the sound big time.
Very interesting video. I also have heard solid state analytics in modern tube gear especially in Audio Research, new McIntosh tube amps, and VTL. I also have heard tube like musicality in solid state amps from manufacturers like Balanced Audio Technologies, Chord, and to some degree Electrocompaniet. Where the focus was towards conveying sweetness and warmth over unflinching accuracy and hyper detail. Recently auditioned a Simm 760a, BAT VK-255se, and BAT VK-76se. It was surprising how different the Simm and BAT solid State amps sounded from each other, and how close the Vk-255se sounded like the all tube based VK-76se.
Thanks Ridire, I am glad others are validating what I experienced so I don't look like I am pulling all this out of a hat :) I heard som BAT older tube preamp recentely, very rolled off and musical.
Nicely done. You have a way of discussing audio. Chubby sound, interesting way to describe sound characteristic. You speak of tubes lack of power. Where are you (obviously talking separates) using solid state power amps and tube preamps? Considering price to performance ratio, anyone interested in discovering tubes Yaquin isn't a bad place to start. Thanks Thomas
Hi Thomas, I don’t think you should have to compromise by choosing between a “vintage” and “modern” sound. You can have both musicality and resolution. I've found that quite often, the brightness and leanness people object to is the result of noise. If you’re looking for ways to lower the noise floor on good tube electronics, I can offer a few suggestions: 1) If it has a cheap power cord inlet, switch it out with a Furutech NCF inlet. 2) if you have cheap RCA jacks, switch them out with Cardas jacks. 3) Experiment with Bybee iQSEs. 4) Use a good audiophile fuse. I like the Synergistic Blue Fuse. 5) Contact Stuart Jones, president of Chapman Audio Systems. He’s created these little capsules that go inside components that significantly reduce noise. 6) The component platform also makes a difference in high-end audio. I like using individual Sistrum platforms for each component to avoid the vibration from one component affecting the others. 7) Mapleshade Brass Tube Halos can also have a significant effect in reducing noise. Of course, a good audiophile-grade wall outlet, power conditioner, and power cable will also lower the noise floor. Regarding digital front-ends, I recently tried the Furutech Flux-50 in my CD player and was really impressed by how much it reduced noise.
Thanks for the suggestion. One of my friend want to give fuses a try and I wonder how much difference it makes. I never heard of Bybee iQSE, will check out. The rest like power and rca, we have tried those. Thanks again.
@@ThomasAndStereo The Blue Fuse is one of those small but significant improvements. You’ll hear a little darker background and more “meat on the bones”. Given that stock fuses have a wider tolerance band, order one amp rating higher than your manual specifies. Con: 300 hours break-in can be a bit of a roller coaster ride with some ups and downs. The price is obscenely high given what I'm guessing manufacturing cost is, even when taking into account R&D and the cost of doing business. www.synergisticresearch.com/fuses/blue/ With the Bybee iQSE and QSE the sound becomes more organic and you hear more of that magical holographic imaging around the instruments. I have two iQSE attached below my Cary 300SEI, near the rear jacks and below the power supply, two inside my Cary 303/300 CD Player, and two QSEs taped on my fuse box. bybeetech.com/products/#treatment-for-rooms-power-and-components I haven’t tried Stuarts capsules yet. He’s a very honest and knowledgeable audiophile. He told me that I’ll have to experiment to determine the optimum number. They reduce the noise floor but too many of them can make the system sound dead. Stuart is also a Bybee distributor. chapmanaudiosystems.com/Contact/index.html Three more very nice noise reduction devices I forgot to mention are the Furutech destat III, the IsoTek Full System Enhancer CD, and the High Fidelity MC-0.5 Magnetic Wave Guide (which made a very noticeable improvement even though I already own an Audience power conditioner). www.furutech.com/2016/02/12/12469/ www.isoteksystems.com/product/essentials/full-system-enhancer/ www.highfidelitycables.com/products/conditioner/mc05/
@@ThomasAndStereo You're welcome. Besides using the IsoTek disc weekly to remove static charge throughout my system, it's also an excellent cable and component break-in disc. I ran the break-in track on repeat for around 20 hours when I bought my amp and the improvement was very significant. And it's inexpensive, around $30 (unlike the $150 Luminist System Enhancer CD from Purist Audio Design). :-(
A certain amount of the sound is conditioned by partnering equipment. Cables. My amp was too warm. Fuzzy and a lot of hash Change fonfo stage cabling etc this can significantly increase detail etc maybe because of noise reduction
I have always dismissed cables as snake oil. I still mostly think many cable products are just hype. However, I recently changed my speaker cables (25m distance from amp to speakers) from 16AWG to 12AWG and I couldn't believe the difference. I am not sure if it's just louder or if the sound is "warmer"... but if it is just "louder" I certainly prefer that 1dB of loudness, which somehow sounded "warmer" and more "expansive" to me.... I spent about 2hrs plugging and replugging the two sets of cables to make sure it was just my imagination.
Thanks for the very good video on the PrimaLuna One Thomas. A quick confirmation question for you. I will be plugging my OPPO BDP-95 Blu-ray Player/Streamer, that has a Sabre 32 DAC built in, to my tube amp. The OPPO with my Totem Tribe Speakers is all I need for this system to be good-to-go. Is that correct? Thanks Thomas, David Stein
Yes, that is all you need. Are you buying a used Prima Luna One? Prima Luna, I prefer their older models. I understand you chose it for the service, however, you speakers are Totem Tribe, I don't know if you need a lot of current for those kind of speakers to bring out the bass. As you know those speakers have very small woofer and if you cannot bring out the bass, the speakers will sound thin. EL34 is known more for voice than dynamics.
@@ThomasAndStereo I bought the PrimaLuna ProLogue 2. My Totem Tribe speakers are pretty efficient. The used tube amp I purchased comes with a 3 year parts & labor warranty. The tubes come with a 6 month warranty. New Chinese Tube amps come with only a 1 year warranty. I bought my tube unit from Upscale Audio in California As you probably know I w, they are a PrimaLuna dealer. Thomas, you made several points here. I am a bit confused. Are you thinking that the amp I bought might not be a good match for my speakers? On another 🎵 (pun intended), I am looking down the road to get more of, what you call,that "old tube sound". I will probably have to buy different tubes to get some of that flavor out of the sound of my stereo system. (Any suggestions?)
Agreed. that's why I have a vacuum tube pre amplification and FM (1960's Pilot) and solid state power amplification. Tube warmth with air and bass punch. I used NOS rectifier and 12ax7 preamp and tuner tubes. I've tried new Sovteks and found the performance and quality a let down.
Great video Thomas ! Very interesting product. Have you tried different speaker with the PL? I am trying to understand how to select speakers with tube amps. I was told that higher speaker impedance is usually desired and should be the main criteria over speaker sensitivity, technically speaking. Should it really be a concern ?
I did try with all kind of speakers even those that are close to $10k. I would say it sounds great for the top end and mid range. Bass, is just ok. I understand the speaker impedance issue but I don't have a lot of knowledge with it. One thing I learned in the audio world is 1+1 does not always equal to 2 and you don't know until you plug it in. There have been some surprised along my journey.
Nothing meh about Primalunas stuff, best deal in HiFi! Stock tubes are perfectly good, don't believe the hype. If you want ss sound (newer sound) get the PL gear, they are all in push pull config. You want chubby warm, go s.e.t.
But, is bass comparable considering the low power of SET integrated amps? I'm a low volume listener (< 80 dB) with average efficiency speakers. Decware? Thanks! (Have PL Prologue 2 currently).
The newer Prima Luna are supposedly improved. Fuller sound tubes seem to be slower and don't get the musicalness as accurately as thinner sounding tubes with great quickness. Tone is important with tubes too, especially if your speakers have great tonal qualities. Good power conditioning can get the grit out of the sound and make the tone (color, warmth) smoother and sound better.
Hello Thomas, I am Kartono Ali from Indonesia. Just bought a nos Primaluna Prologue One yesterday. May I know what are the tube brand/type that you are currently using with your Primaluna P1.
Well done. How about a video exploring the Musical Paradise MP-402? I can find nothing online about this integrated but for under $1K, with 75 WPC, it sure looks promising. It would be nice to hear impressions of the sound from the FU25/1625 tubes.
Hello Thomas, interesting when you mention old tube amps vs. new amps. Point-to-point wiring was how tube amps were wired many years ago - long before printed circuit boards. This is why us guitarists prefer vintage tube amps from 60s, 70s (especially Fender amps). There are point-to-point hand wired and are more chimney, organic sounding (for lack of better word). As you know printed circuits board is more modern and most amps use them now. So the fact that the PrimaLuna is point-to-point would indicate that it's using older technique - don't you agree? Hope you had a good time at Montreal Audio Fest. We are waiting for your new room tour.
Thanks! This year, I just filmed a few rooms I thought was interesting so it's not going to be a long 3 part video. Regarding point to point, I am now very curious. My friend actually have the marantz 7 that is mentioned in upscale audio video and I am thinking asking him to bring over to try. Although the Prima Luna uses the 'older technique', it does not sound like the vintage gear at all.
Hey Thomas could you ask your vintage friend for how long could you use tubes? Those tubes are vintage and tubes supposed to degraded in sound quality with time so how do you know when to change it? Thank you in advance!
Tubes life span depends on the type of tubes you use. Some will last for 3000 hours while others 10k hours. When you play with NOS like us, we have tube testers as shown in the video to measure the strength of the tubes before we use it.
The best tube integrated amp I ever heard was the LEBEN CS-600 the problem is getting one is very hard and the wait list is long and my dealer only had 1 display model. The thing is AMAZING with the best volumn knob I ever felt ever. The prima luna's I heard were kind of not to my taste though and slightly cheaper sounding even though they had premium pricing. You really need super efficient speakers for them in opinion. The all japanese made Leben blew it out of the water BUT sometimes with this stuff you just can't get it. I will tell you the Leben makes bass and it was able to make a pair of inefficient and harder to drive Harbeth 30.1's its bitch. It is rated at 32 watts but more like double that I think...The Hyodo-san who makes these things is one of the top tube guys in Japan.
@@ThomasAndStereo They are a small company he only has like 5-6 employees and they make 1 amp a day. The guy came from Luxman and was like running product development there for 20 years or something. So he knows his stuff.
@@ThomasAndStereo "old gears" like the original Marantz they have the tonal richness that us "tone whores" lust after. After watching your video, it reminded me why I'm not using my 7 & 8b after their original tubes are done, it took forever to search and a lot of money to find the same sound again. Still not the same. One day I will, I must succeed ...... TY
If you’re into tube pre’s and amp, check out Transcendent Sound products. Years ago I had one of their OTL amps and it was indeed holographic... The best tube amp I’ve ever owned. Ultimately I decided to sacrifice the magic sound of tubes for the convenience of SS.
Hi Thomas, I have the PL HP Integrated Amp with the KT150 power tubes pushing my Kanta 2's and let me tell you it gives my system Bass for days with plenty of slam given the music you play. I am more than satisfied. I also tried the SQ with a SS Yamaha Adventage AVR and the PL blew it away. I just ordered a Lumin T2 DAC and I can't wait to try it with my PL. Will update later.
Yeah, you are talking about the Kanta, 50w ss is plenty. You have KT150 too, the better newer tubes. It's funny you talk about Lumin, they are well known in asia and I am supposed to review one of those dac in my future video.
Hello Thomas, What is your opinion on PrimaLuna Evo 400 and 300 Tube integrated amplifier? Is the 400 worth the extra $1K over the 300? Which is better Solid State or Tubes in your view? Thanks.
My friend had the EVO 400 and I wish it had a bit more tubish sound. However, that is just me listening for an hour so not really conclusive. You would have to ask someone with more experience with it.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and experience again Thomas...much appreciated! For clarification of your old vs. new equipment, which one has that tube sparkle...my guess is the old? Also what cables did you use for your trial of the PriamLuna? Copper or Silver?
Well, usually, when I refer to sparkle in a speaker, it's the newer speakers. Tube, old sound would be about warmth. New tube will be more about precision. Usually I use either transparent super or siltech cables, Yter speaker cable, I don't remember because I swap around a lot to fine tune the sound.
Great video, thanks! Last month got Primaluna Prologue Premium preamp (nice discount since new series is out), and Nord Hypex NC500 power (400w, class D), connected to Focal 1028be and Chord 2Qute DAC. Things I noticed: very musical, full bodied sound, great imaging, vocals are gorgeous, holographic, even tho less depth, stage spreads from little bit from front of the speaker to about 1m behind, not more. SS amps before had more depth. Bass is great, very controlled and deep. But, compared to previous SS integrated, much less details, and Focal can produce lots of it! Still not sure if thats preamp (more likely) or power amp, but will try to play with tubes. Would be great to hear more from your friend, who has really lot of tube experience ...
Thanks, Very nice setup. The more speakers I play with, I think 1028 BE is probably something I would want to get again and settle with it. I now have the the 1027s and it has everything I want in a speaker. I had the 1028 BE before and it's definitely more refined. Strange that there is less depth. I never heard the premium preamp from Prima so no idea. For tubes, there is a user NosTubes58 in the comment section and he is an expert. Perhaps message him in this comment section and he will reply to you? Perhaps one day I will make a video on tubes in more detail but I have very limited knowledge.
@@ThomasAndStereo thanks for reply. It was a long process to get Focal sound right, and as you already said in one of your previous video, Focal likes power (and more musical/warmer front end! Not Naim as they like to present it at hifi shows and stores!). At least those older models, looks like new Kanta is not that demanding. Primaluna is usually recommended component at their price point at that the reason I bought it without previous audition, Stereophile is using Prologue preamp as a reference in its price range. Now into (expensive) tube-rolling hell to get back those details:( Will check out NosTubes58 comments, thanks!
As usual, a very enjoyable and informative 15 mins. Furthermore, that Nora Jones CD didn't go unnoticed! I would be interested in your opinion of Croft valve amps and preamps. Point-to-point soldering also and superbly priced, British made Hifi by Glenn Croft. Of course I am biases as I own one!
Only on one of their tube monoblocs. It was just ok but they were listed I think at $4k so I felt it was too expensive for the sound I was getting. However, it's not a fair evaluation because I used those tube amps on an efficient pair of speakers. If I used them on my Zu today, it might be a different story.
Hi Thomas thank you for another insightful review. You seem to be reviewing the amps I am keen in. Am now comparing Prima Luna Evo 100 or Schiit Freya + as a preamp to my power amp XTZ A 2 300 . I have never used tubes and am now keen in venturing into. Which do you think is a better match with the XTZ. Appreciate your advice pl.
The LS50 are not easy to drive. I am using it with the ATOLL 30 with 30watt and it distorts and a bit louder than normal volume. The Primaluna has a bit more watt but i am not sure it will drive the LS50 efficiently.
Hi Thomas! I need your advice on my dilemma. I'm torn between yamaha as1100 and primaluna dialogue premium integrated amp. I currently have klipsch forte I as my speakers. What should I pick between the two?
Myself being an owner of Heritage Klipsch speakers, an A-S1100 and Cayin tube amp, I suggest you definitely go with a tube amp (a quiet one such as Primaluna or Cayin). While the 1100 is a great amp, those horns do benefit from some taming which a good tube amp will provide. I don't care for my Heresys when powered by my 1100, but they sound as good as can be with the Cayin.
Hey Tom you have attention on two products you've reviewed fairly recently. The Buchardt S400 speakers and the Primaluna amp. The Buchardts are only rate at 88 how dynamic were they driven with the Primaluna amp ?
It's been a few months already so I don't remember. The only thing I remember is that the only thing that drastically changed was the bass compared to a high power amp. Sorry.
No it will not be. I am very familiar with the VT200 and it's a great amp. My friend has it and i lived with it for a while. The VT200 has more the old sound but it is holographic while the primaluna is not as tuby sounding as the vt200.
I always feel if there any better way to bi-amp , with 1 tube amp connect to mid to high frequency while solid states connect to low frequency. Since tube amp give much holographic experience while solid state give wrap up bass. But my concern is what are the factor need to take note of when pairing both amps? What are the measures taken for the pre-amp? The most important the synergy of the character of both power amps? I agree with you on the musicality vs analactical sounding of every equipment. Thumbs up.
That is precisely what I am trying to do with my system, but most of these dang tube integrated amps DON'T have a bloody Pre-Out to run another amp for the low-end. That is currently what I am doing with SS amps two Dual-Mono preamps/amps for the two tall high-end dipole line-arrays and a Crown 2502 400/side amp to run the two 15" open dipole woofers. I would frigg'n LOVE to find a nice integrated tube amp with the damn Pre-Out. The primaluna Evo 100 actually DOES have one but, I wish the Willsenton R-8 had one, I would probably snag it! But, sadly like most, it doesn't have one : (
I highly suggest you listen to PrimaLuna EVO 400 pre amp and power amps in a mono setup. Use the balanced interconnection. This is what I have along with an EAT E Glo S phono preamp or the Schiit Grungnir Multibit. I'm the guy with the Turnberry GR speakers and REL S/5 subs. The imagining and base you talk about is in this setup. The key to subs is to limit the presence of them. I do not want to hear my subs until I turn them off. They are only to complete what the speakers cannot do. Too many people set subs to high and they have a presence. Not my advice.
Hi Thomas; very insightful presentation. What about hybrid integrated amplifiers (tube input stages)? I am looking at amplifiers that will drive magnepan loudspeakers such as Vincent audio or Rogue audio. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Hi Thomas, there's no way you've tried these with a Mcintosh MA252 by any chance? I found Primaluna Prologue One for about 2000 euro, the Mcintosh is around 3500 in Europe. Both is a lot of money so I'm thinking whether I should just go for the famous Mcintosh - which doesn't necessarily mean it would outperform the Primaluna, but there's the itch - what if
I never heard the MA252 so I can't really comment. I have the PAthos logos and kevin from upscale audio compared it to the MA252 and said the Pathos is better. Now, if I were to guess, the MA252 will have better control of bass given it's a hybrid. The Prima will be more holographic. Your choice of speaker is very important for this decision. I personally prefer more power and control of bass.
Yup, I even tested other $7k , $12k integrated tube amps with the same conclusion. Those are KT150 too. They are good but when compared to SS equivalent class, they do fall behind when it comes to bass.
@@ThomasAndStereo I had big VTL tube power amp and various pre amps, quite good sound overall , but too soft in the bass , poor compared to my ss , and the music seemed slightly slow , shame as it was soooo expensive in my country. The newer ones today are quite different aparently,
I notice you emphasize a lot on holographic imaging, are you familiar with the "OHM" brand of speakers? Im curious as to where they stand in regards to holographic imaging.
One of the issue with those kind of speaker is that it's imaging is not as define as a traditional good setup. Omni directional speaker has it's strength but comes with it's draw back. That is me also listening to Omni speakers that are $60k+
Thomas, have you ever thought of bi-amping to improve that (for you only marginal) weakness in the bass? I use two Belles 350 A Refetence amps which does not only increase bass impact but also overall clarity. What works with solid state should work for tube amps as well.
Oh, that I don't know but if you look at the comment section in this video, there is a tube guru NOStube58 , respond to his comment and see if he answered you.
I'm new to tube amplifiers. I really enjoy your reviews. You have a way of explaining that is down to earth and understandable. Thank you
This was wonderful. I just purchased my first integrated tube amp out of curiosity. I have not found much clarity in describing the difference in the sound of solid state and tubes. More important to me was your explanation of old sound and new sound. Understanding the design goal of old sound and new sound amps makes building a personally pleasing system more straight forward.
I made a video on why tubes. Check it out.
Thank you for the prima Luna and “why tubes” “not reviews”. Excellent. I purchased the Buchardt S400 last year. Tried many solid state amp and I could never tell the difference. I’ve had the Prima Luna Evo 200 for about 3 weeks now and WOW! I never new the speakers could just disappear. Soundstage! Detail! Just fantastic. But I did change the EL34 Tubes to KT88 (gold lion) Thank you Thomas. Can’t wait for your Evo400 review.
Thanks! My friend sold his EVO 400 so sadly I will not be reviewing it.
These Prima Luna's have been around since at least 2008 or so. 35 watts of tube power is sufficient to drive most speakers. Forget the solid state 100 watt power requirement, for tube power doesn't compare to solid state power. Tubes rule!
I am getting stunning holographic sound with my Prima luna prologue Kt88.voices project forward into the room with extraordinary realism .bass issues can be addressed with a room corrected solid state sub.
Great video! You can tailor the Primaluna sound any way you want with the right tubes.
I had the Prologue Pre/Power and the Dialogue integrated in the past. Unfortunately this was before the KT120/KT150 tubes came in the market so i didn't get to experience the PrimaLuna with those new powerful tubes. They are build like a tank and no knowledge of tubes and how to bias is necessary so they are perfect for people who are new with tubes. With a touch of hyperbole i would call them "Tubes for Dummies" lol The flexibility to change different types of tubes also helps a lot to fine tune to your taste. They are not cheap but you get what you pay for. At the time that i had them in combination with a PCM1704 dac the sound was very smooth and inviting, with good detail but still tube like sound.
Watch your power transformer go up in smoke. Those tubes require more heater current than 6CA7/EL34?KT77 types and would only yield a few more watts at best. KT120s will bias up about the same as a vintage 6550s and you'll need bigger iron for more power.
I’ve had a Yaqin for 6 or so years paired with Snell Type E/I and have been very impressed (and pleased) with the results. I upgraded the tubes to SED winged C and became even more content with the sound. The Yaqin produces a deep and wide holographic soundstage with warm musicality throughout the entire sound spectrum. It is not picky about the music you play through it and will allow you to enjoy even badly recorded music from the 1920’s and will wonderfully bring it to life once again.
Currently, I am using a Sonic Frontiers SFS-40 and although it is a much more expensive and higher-end amp the sound is not “that” much better. It has a bit more clarity and bass control on the Tannoy Cheviots that I’ve paired it with but I wouldn’t say it’s in any way greatly superior, just a bit different in sound characteristics. I bought the SF as an upgrade which in some ways but not to the degree that I am convinced to get rid of the Yaqin.
The Yaqin produces 50wpc which is more than enough unless you have a very large room or inefficient speakers. With the size of the transformers on the Yaqin it is more than capable of handling speakers with difficult impedance loads too. It won’t produce the taught slam of SS but it will keep you in front of your stereo longer, undistracted , and happily enjoying your music, which is the whole point of this hobby (something many audiophiles forget as it seems they merely use well recorded but boring artists like Nora Jones as an excuse to listen gear and not music).
I couldn’t recommend this amp more.
Nice, check out my Cayin CS55A review too.
Hi Thomas. I have written you before about how much I enjoy your commentary on UA-cam (hereinafter YT). Thomas I wish that you lived in the Albuquerque area for the reason that I would really enjoy forming a friendship with you. Your personality is quite warm and friendly combined with your intellect. I believe that I would really enjoy having dialogue with you about multiple topics including but not limited to music, current events, literature and more. In summary, I have formed the impression that you are, to use a bougie phrase, a GREAT GUY. Thanks Thomas.
Thanks Ronald, for the compliment yes I have made friends with a few local subscribers. I am a very easy going guy and part of my goal of making this channel was to have a virtual water cooler chat every once in a while with passionate people.
Hey Thomas! I'm a 59 year old Aussie gay guy from Australia! I was a club DJ for 40 years so I've seen the best and worst! I've been playing with electronics all my life and received my first electric shock when I was 4 years old! The 60s and 70s were the tube era at its best! Friends gave me old valve or tube sets as I grew up from radios to some beautiful valve amplifiers. Unfortunately one night while I was at work the house caught fire! The only things that survived were my Leak, Valve Point One Stereo system which was being restored at the time plus my record collection as it was stored in the garage along with all my CDs! I still get teary eyed but shit happens! I own a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier and the EL34 output valves sound excellent running into a pair of bookshelf Wharfedale speakers and the whole sound stage is stunning! I've driven other speakers with this amplifier and obviously the bass section is more prominent in bigger speakers but the Wharfedale speakers sound clean and accurate! Having auto bias on a tube amp to me is a blessing! I've deliberately altered the bias on some tube amps and the crossover distortion is obvious past say 5% either way! With NOS tubes you're gambling with your wallet! A friend of mine bought some NOS KT88s. Eight in all but they sounded weird?? After checking them in a tube tester, their emission rate was what, 40% at best! He'd blown over a grand on tubes that had been thrashed to death! The getters would've been a clue as they were brown and tired looking! The Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier I own is wonderful! The build quality alone is enough to buy one and the stock EL34 output valves sound excellent running into any speaker! I have tube rolled and the KT120s give you a bit more punch but the KT150s don't sound any better to me and even then they're too tall to fit the tube guard back in place which I like! I'm running a new, never been in a club Technics SL1200 MK2 Turntable fitted with an Ortofon cartridge and the pre-amp is an english Cambridge because I wanted the amp stock! You can turn the volume up full and all you can hear is a faint hiss but when playing vinyl, I wanted to hear if the pre-amp was adding anything which it's not. I can't get the volume level much past 10.00 o'clock on the Tuner, CD player or Turntable anyway without risking hearing damage. It's got plenty of head room! As I say, when I win Lotto things will be change but Primaluna will be a part of my setup! Cheers from down under, Andrew!
Really enjoyed this video, and agree with your thoughts. I am a happy owner of *both* a Prima Luna DialoGue One and a McIntosh MA8900. I can see pros and cons in both, so that is why I use both. Curious to learn more about the new Evolution series from Prima Luna.
You have 2 of my dream amps!
Haha, your friend set you up. "Here try this Prima Luna I'm selling", "Oh, I actually really like this amp. I might buy it from you", "Wait, you like it? Eh, sorry. Not for sale any more".
Your loving it convinced him not to sell? He's a joker...
@@zenden6564 Nah, he is a good guy.
When your ex gets a new partner . . . 😉😜
put a set of production Gold Lion kt88s in my primal luna prologue 5.Extraordinary improvement in detail and bass. The amp " sings" now. tubes require a 72 hour burn in.
I did the same thing! Yes! The Prima Luna seemed to bloom with the Gold Lions. Imaging and bass both improved.
After research I feel like PrimaLuna is the only high end tube amp where you get what you paid for. maybe more.
I never buy into brands but i love what the brand stand for and the quality of the manufacturing and the parts in their product.
It's the first time i don't feel like upgrading something when i'll buy it.
Well done on review and I've got Primaluma preamp and yakin 100b Power tube amplifier and it has a sublime sound quality for low cost compared to £5k amplifier but you must use high quality tubes. Gold lion tubes
Brilliant analysis on 'old' vs 'new' tube sound.
Hello, Thanks for another great 'real' perspective on gear. Also, thanks for mentioning the Freya; I've been wondering about pairing it w/my FirstWatt and I think your description of it helped out. I'll be getting it now.
Thank you very much Thomas. I have to think it over, i may go for the Schiit option in the near future, even though i agree that it is an over kill with these speakers. Thanks again and have a good week.
I've paired the Yaqin SD-CD3 tube buffer with the Mcintosh MC152 poweramp and they sound amazing and glorious!!! I don't know if connecting the tube buffer directly to the poweramp (without preamp) can cause any harm to the Mcintosh poweramp but they produce unbelievably impressive sound.
It should be fine without the preamp, best check with mcintosh if you are not sure. Never tried the SD-CD3 but Yaqin has been making some nice sounding gears at very affordable price.
Great video as always Thomas!
I have that exact amp fitted with gold lion tubes, paired to a pair of spatial audio M4 speakers and a Rel T7 sub. Pure Bliss. The systems ability to reproduce accurate size, space and dynamics is so enjoyable! Overtones are rendered flawlessly and instruments tamber and size are spot on. As a musician it's exactly what I always wanted to hear from my system and I can't see myself changing anything other than moving up the spatial line when funds allow.
Oh, very nice, thanks for sharing.
I do agree there are 2 sounds. I repair, build and engineer tube audio. There are many reasons for that sound difference. Also the Prima Luna is excellent equipment. I have modified the bias on mine so I can push the output tubes however excellent either way. Mine sounded best with a Quad of Genalex KT88 from the early 1960's. I also replaced my 12ax7 tubes with GE 5751.
I have owned my MC-13S for 5 years now. I performed the preamplifier modification, takes the MC-13S performance from good to amazing!
I’m with you. My preference is somewhere in the between warmth and detail. That’s why I love my Jolida hybrid integrated. It strikes a very good balance for the money.
Great video Thomas.
So, if you rolled tubes on the PrimaLuna, could you actually capture that "old sound" as well?
That way, you could have the best of both worlds?
I really want to try out PrimaLuna but that is concerning for me.
Thanks
After about 11 months of research, reading reviews, watching UA-cam videos, asking friends and trying gear out in stores, I bought the Primaluna DiaLogue Premium in November 2018 and I'm very satisfied that I made the right choice for me and my needs. Oddly enough, Primaluna was the one brand that I was interested in that I could not try in person locally. I'd long decided on a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II (I was waiting to move into new house), but in the end Kevin Deal's video about Primaluna's point-to-point wiring, exotic parts and not having to retube it every 12 months convinced me that Primaluna was probably the right way to go. The Cronus Magnum II is a great amp, and powerful, but it runs the tubes too hot and they need to be replaced frequently. The build on Primaluna products is *quite good* and the power switch, the input selector and the remote feel fantastic in a tactical sense and it's as heavy as an anvil.
I would say to anyone interested that watching Upscale Audio's videos are a MUST before you pull the trigger on a tube amp. He's one of the best salesmen I've ever witnessed. His spiel is perfection, what a character, but the thing is, he's genuinely excited about Primaluna gear. It would be impossible to fake that sort of articulated enthusiasm. He sure sold me, I'll say that much.
If you have a larger space, you'll want the HP model. The DiaLogue Premium will go pretty loud, but hard to drive speakers need not apply. If my room was even slightly larger I'd have gone for the HP.
Now on to new speakers. So far leaning towards another Kevin Deal recommendation the Tannoy Revolution 8XTF.
Congrats, my friend have the Kanta also, VERY good speakers and require not much to drive them. Even 50watt was enough if you don't drive them loud.
Yup, Kevin is an amazing and passionate salesman. I am tempted to pick up the 8XTF too as I have found one used at $1500 but a good 4 hours drive so I am hesitant. Congrats on your prima, I am still waiting to get my hands on a higher end one to try.
Richard, did you get the Tannoys? Kevin talked me into getting the Tannoy Stirlings and they are great.
I know I am a little late to the game here, but I just want to point out that wattage output has almost nothing to do with bass. As long as you have enough wattage from your amplifier to drive your speakers to 6db above your normal listening level, you should be fine. The lack of bass is probably coming from several other factors, but output power is not one of them.
Hi Thomas great video. You mentioned about trying the higher end stuff in the future the future is here, Do you plan on trying the EVO 400 Amp? there are no review that I can find?
I have already tried the EVO400 which I showed at the end of the Cayin CS55A video. I also have the Cayin CS845A video coming soon. EVO 400, good for a lot of people but not for everyone.
Great work on the video as usual! Very interesting, thank you much for all the work that you put into this.
Thanks, I noticed I don't do detail reviews but rather what I learn from each equipment i played with. I think I need to have a check list going forward, like I did not even talk about soundstage, imaging and so forth in this video !
Hi-Fi Haven x
My favorite tubes are the Siemens EL34. They are NOS, but Mesa Engineering (a guitar amp company) tests and labels the NOS tubes as STR-450. I really liked the PrimaLuna but went with the Cary Audio SLI-80, also a point to point handwired amp that runs in triode mode and ultra linear mode. It sounds amazing through the Buchardt S400.
cosmo naut I love the Cary SLi 80 but sadly I sold it due to sounding way too solid state’ish. Good tube amp for sure but the Cayin A88T MK3 sounds way better! 😉
Thomas, I have watched enough hi end related videos that I just want to express my general gratitude for your work, detailed yet easy digestable without any mannerisms. Your philosophical musings and honest opinion without being blunt are much appreciated. I think it could be an age related thing (how old are you tho 😉). Nonetheless cheers to your excellent work and hope to see channel prosper further 🥂
Thanks for the encouragement.
I had both these integrated amplifiers. To me the Prima Luna Prologue One along with Vintage KLH model 5 sounded better than Yaqqin. I was also worried about the biasing on Yaqin. Yes , I use vintage tubes like Philips EL 34 Made in Germany. They do have a 3 dimensional imaging capability under ideal conditions.
Hi Thomas, great video and down to earth analysis. Thank you.
I think that it is fun to experiment with different gear and cables to learn what they can do to the music. Until one hears something and have someone points out that this is what it is called, it is difficult to imagine what that experience is, such as your term holographic, or perhaps air or soundstage? We bought a PL Prologue Premium a few years ago, the tubes that came with it were fine, then one of them blew after a few months and I bought another set of PL tubes (2X5AR4 and 4X12AU7) with gold labels. They were less than ideal. A few days ago I bought a set of Mullard (Russian made) and the music came alive. I can hear much more details, clarity as well as really nice solid soundstage, the bass is much better than before because I can hear the notes in the double bass and bass guitar clearly. The system has never been better. I use Chord Qutest, with AudioLab monoblocks and Celestion A2. They are relatively inexpensive gear but the sound is very satisfying. Part of the fun is to swap gear with friends and try a few things to find out what one really enjoys. As you mentioned, we have different preferences afterall. Look forward to more of your reviews.
I listened to a tube rolled PrimaLuna Evo400 integrated (and the same with stock tubes) and the Line Magnetic LM805IA absolutely trashed it even with OEM tubes. Not even close. Sound stage, detail, linearity, resolution, refinement, bass punch, and that holographic magic. LM was clearly better in every category. 48 watts of true SET power! 88lbs!
Try the LM845IA or LM805IA from Line Magnetic, Thomas! You’ll be glad you did!! 👍😊
Yeah, I heard the EVO 400 too as my friend has one. One day I will try Line Magnetic.
@@ThomasAndStereo Line Magnetic is legitimately good. Not “for the money”, but in an absolute sense.
I second this.
Thomas have you reviewed the Willsenton R8? Im trying to decide on the Muzishare X7 or the R8.
Not yet but soon. I would not know how it compares to the X7 as I never heard that one before.
Ok thanks
Nice discussion! I prefer the old sound myself. Agree about the bass. I have a tube 50 watt x 2 on some old JBL titanium tweeter floorstanders that are 90db sensitive and I still have to push the volume to get dynamic bass. The bass drivers have 7.5 pound magnets on each, so they can put out some serious bass. Dying to roll some TUBES, but got to save the pennies first, lol!
Primaluna with a mix of Gold Lion, Tungsram, RCA, or Brimar as 12AX7 and 12AU7 can make it warmer, even more holographic and punchier in the bass at the same time, even with EL34s in the back. Of course KT120s will expand in every direction a bit more but the input tubes make all the difference in sound quality.
Can you expand on that? What tubes up front might give the best results for what type of sound? Thank you.
Nice video ! And always value in your content. I kept the good advice on the best Tube suited for them.
Primaluna is made by Sparks in China which they also make Cayin amps. Sparks also makes amps for other lesser names in tube audio. The issue with Primaluna is their so called “auto bias” electronic issue which tends to fail and cause issues. Primaluna is trying to eliminate the guess work of biasing tubes etc. IMO Cayin is way of a better option than higher priced item from Primaluna. Yaqin, Audio Space Galaxy, etc are other nice options to consider. As always, your video content is awesome to the audio community
Thanks, I am always curious about Cayin. Since like a well made product that will perform above it's price. Problem with them is whenever I come across one at a good price, they get sold really fast.
Hello, what do you think about the similarity of the Prima Luna and the Cayin, is it possible that both brands share something of their genesis?
Rumours had it at one point long time ago, PL was made in the Cayin factory. Now, maybe things have changed. From memory of listening to Cayin and PL, they don't sound the same.
I have just bought the prima luna evo integrated 100 amp, about 200 hours play time so far. With my focal speakers I have to say it is the best sound I have ever heard.
I wanted to ask.
Are there any DAC do's or don'ts for valve amps particularly Integrated ones?
You described the bass elogently thomas its more about the depth of the bass rather than bang and slam .keep them rolling thomas
Bel Canto 300s? Do you like?? I’ve been looking at the i5 and other stuff. I really need to find a place to listen to the line..
Wow what colour LED do they have, that glow creates colourfuysound stage right, especially after dark
always enjoy your talks Tom.
the prima luna prologue 5 is really well made. top drawer construction. definitely has the holographic sound you discuss with the kt88 tubes it came with ,great detail which i like.curious about the tubes your freinds have has best results with among current production ones.maybe kt 120?really enjoy your talks.
Thanks, it was an older model and it might be with EL34. Have to ask him again.
Thomas, you understand the emotions and listen ability of music and HiFi gear...
Thomas, you are good to listen to.
I seem to remember that Prima Luna can run different tubes besides the EL-34. If you like the more "modern analytical" sound, try KT-77's. Tighter bass, more extended on top. Not as squishy.
Yeah, I think it's the upper model that can do that. I forgot but my friend did mention to me too.
I bought a YaYi tube integrated amp a few years ago, direct from China. (4) EL34 power tubes, same as a Marshall guitar amp! And (2) 7025 preamp tubes. Paid less than $200 SHIPPED to San Francisco and it's built like a tank with wonderful fidelity. Especially after getting a matched quad of Russian made military grade Sovtek EL34's and 7025's
Interesting, did not know about this brand. You got a good deal then if it sounds great.
Great video as always Thomas!
Hi Thomas, There's a 3rd reference point worth keeping in the conversation: Real (or true to source). Warmth vs. detail is a false dichotomy. I know that's the continuum audiophiles often use, but it's not the whole story. How "detailed" is Real? How "warm" is Real? I'd rather get closer to the source (what was recorded in the studio) then closer to anything else. That should sound good. Keep in mind, however, in studios instruments are often close miked, so they will sound more detailed than in "real life" (while listening to a live performance at a normal distance). So, extra detail is what we often should hear, because it's on the recording.
i dont mean to be off topic but does any of you know a way to log back into an Instagram account..?
I somehow forgot the password. I would appreciate any assistance you can offer me
@Musa Johnathan instablaster :)
@Isaiah Marcel thanks for your reply. I found the site on google and im waiting for the hacking stuff now.
I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
@Isaiah Marcel DAMN IT REALLY WORKED! Literally hacked my ig login after roughly 40 minutes by using the site.
I had to pay 15$ but for sure worth it :)
Thanks so much, you really help me out :D
@Musa Johnathan glad I could help :D
I had the exact model. Great gear and works well with my Rogers LS35A. Nice video Thomas!
Thank you Thomas very interesting as that is the Prima Luna I have
Hey Thomas. Do you have any experience with rotel or b&K? Any thoughts ? I’m looking at used options of those as they seem to be good value for my budget .
i had the rotel 1080 before and i think 986, they were just ok.
Wellim trying to find decent power for towers. I either need cheap ave with pre out to power amp or run all HDMI to tv then toslink out to pre to power. Accomplishing this under $600 isn't easy unless going used/ vintage
Just stumbled upon your channel. My previous amplifiers were Atma-shpere M60 monoblocks with entry level Prima Prologue preamp . With home made Dynaudio 3 way system and proper speaker placement the equipment disappeared leaving you in a realistic detailed audio experience. Atma-spheres are power hogs consuming 300 watts per chassis. Atma-speres I found to be hard on tubes. Tube availability was also getting difficult and expensive to deal with. Tried Tripath T-class which produce no heat and gave a similar "airy" presentation until pushed too hard...the sound quality fell apart rapidly. I was finally able to purchase the PrimaLuna Premium Dialogue HP power amp with Dialogue Premium preamp. This system is now driving JBL 4425 studio monitors on Kenrick style stands. I am using KT77 power tubes and they are barely working hard. The sound is effortless, detailed and puts you right into the recording venue. I have operated this system for 2 years with no noticeable wear on tubes and look forward to much more listening enjoyment. I also have an excellent source on quality tested and matched tubes when the need arises. Audio Bliss!
So another happy Prima Luna owner. Thanks for sharing, you have a very nice setup now. Do you find it less airy than the M60? I listened to the EVO400 and found it so 'clean' that it's almost solid state sounding.
When the M60's are working correctly the notes of music seem to have space between them. My amps have not performed well for years so they sit on sides of listening room. No A-B comparison could be made.For much less money I could have shipped them back to St Paul for a complete rebuild with new warranty but I chose a system with active tube monitoring and biasing. Mark Gilmore of Granite Audio stated he would never use an Atma-sphere without active bias on each power tube. I agree fully as the Atma's would blow a triode section unbalancing its performance. Too hard and expensive to live with. My God, the MA-3's with 42 power tubes per chassis would be a bitch to live with. OTL's offer an "openness" of sound that no other system can match but at a huge cost to maintain.
I have not heard the new EVO iteration of PrimaLuna. I am so satisfied with the rock solid performance of the Dialogue Premium HP that I don't need more.
The Dialogue was originally ordered with KT120's and the stock EL-34's. Talking with Kevin Deal he stated the EL-34 is a much more musical tube, which it is. The KT-77 is the highest rated EL-34 available and that is what I am now using.
I added a Manley Labs Chinook phono stage with a VPI HR-X turntable with 12 inch carbon fiber tone arm and Kiseki Purple Heart NS cartridge. The turntable is 130 pounds on a 100 lb granite slab spiked to the floor. This is one bad ass vinyl setup which sounds OTL like, music coming out of empty space.
Enjoy the Music.@@ThomasAndStereo
The Yaqin 10L benefits greatly if you up grade the coupling caps (100n 300v on your MK2) , also up grade the tubes, those stock Shuguangs are very poor, you can't buy worst tubes than those! Try replacing the 6N1P's with E88CC Tesla if you can find any, as for the power tubes the current favourite is the Gold Lion KT77 also the EH 6CA7 is note worthy.
Changing the volume pot for a Alps type 27 Blue (use 50k Log) is another worth while mod. Good luck.
I remember seeing videos on modding the Yaqin and I did consider it. For the Yaqin, we actually had 2, The 10L and the then the newer one. We did try tube rolling and yes it did help with the sound big time.
Very interesting video. I also have heard solid state analytics in modern tube gear especially in Audio Research, new McIntosh tube amps, and VTL. I also have heard tube like musicality in solid state amps from manufacturers like Balanced Audio Technologies, Chord, and to some degree Electrocompaniet. Where the focus was towards conveying sweetness and warmth over unflinching accuracy and hyper detail. Recently auditioned a Simm 760a, BAT VK-255se, and BAT VK-76se. It was surprising how different the Simm and BAT solid State amps sounded from each other, and how close the Vk-255se sounded like the all tube based VK-76se.
Thanks Ridire, I am glad others are validating what I experienced so I don't look like I am pulling all this out of a hat :) I heard som BAT older tube preamp recentely, very rolled off and musical.
@@ThomasAndStereo Tube like musicality from SS gear. Now that's a video topic Thomas!
Nicely done. You have a way of discussing audio. Chubby sound, interesting way to describe sound characteristic. You speak of tubes lack of power. Where are you (obviously talking separates) using solid state power amps and tube preamps? Considering price to performance ratio, anyone interested in discovering tubes Yaquin isn't a bad place to start. Thanks Thomas
Hi Thomas, I don’t think you should have to compromise by choosing between a “vintage” and “modern” sound. You can have both musicality and resolution. I've found that quite often, the brightness and leanness people object to is the result of noise. If you’re looking for ways to lower the noise floor on good tube electronics, I can offer a few suggestions: 1) If it has a cheap power cord inlet, switch it out with a Furutech NCF inlet. 2) if you have cheap RCA jacks, switch them out with Cardas jacks. 3) Experiment with Bybee iQSEs. 4) Use a good audiophile fuse. I like the Synergistic Blue Fuse. 5) Contact Stuart Jones, president of Chapman Audio Systems. He’s created these little capsules that go inside components that significantly reduce noise. 6) The component platform also makes a difference in high-end audio. I like using individual Sistrum platforms for each component to avoid the vibration from one component affecting the others. 7) Mapleshade Brass Tube Halos can also have a significant effect in reducing noise. Of course, a good audiophile-grade wall outlet, power conditioner, and power cable will also lower the noise floor. Regarding digital front-ends, I recently tried the Furutech Flux-50 in my CD player and was really impressed by how much it reduced noise.
Thanks for the suggestion. One of my friend want to give fuses a try and I wonder how much difference it makes. I never heard of Bybee iQSE, will check out. The rest like power and rca, we have tried those. Thanks again.
@@ThomasAndStereo The Blue Fuse is one of those small but significant improvements. You’ll hear a little darker background and more “meat on the bones”. Given that stock fuses have a wider tolerance band, order one amp rating higher than your manual specifies. Con: 300 hours break-in can be a bit of a roller coaster ride with some ups and downs. The price is obscenely high given what I'm guessing manufacturing cost is, even when taking into account R&D and the cost of doing business. www.synergisticresearch.com/fuses/blue/
With the Bybee iQSE and QSE the sound becomes more organic and you hear more of that magical holographic imaging around the instruments. I have two iQSE attached below my Cary 300SEI, near the rear jacks and below the power supply, two inside my Cary 303/300 CD Player, and two QSEs taped on my fuse box. bybeetech.com/products/#treatment-for-rooms-power-and-components
I haven’t tried Stuarts capsules yet. He’s a very honest and knowledgeable audiophile. He told me that I’ll have to experiment to determine the optimum number. They reduce the noise floor but too many of them can make the system sound dead. Stuart is also a Bybee distributor. chapmanaudiosystems.com/Contact/index.html
Three more very nice noise reduction devices I forgot to mention are the Furutech destat III, the IsoTek Full System Enhancer CD, and the High Fidelity MC-0.5 Magnetic Wave Guide (which made a very noticeable improvement even though I already own an Audience power conditioner).
www.furutech.com/2016/02/12/12469/
www.isoteksystems.com/product/essentials/full-system-enhancer/
www.highfidelitycables.com/products/conditioner/mc05/
THanks for taking the time to write such a long reply. Appreciate it. I will use this as reference when I am ready to try those.
@@ThomasAndStereo You're welcome. Besides using the IsoTek disc weekly to remove static charge throughout my system, it's also an excellent cable and component break-in disc. I ran the break-in track on repeat for around 20 hours when I bought my amp and the improvement was very significant. And it's inexpensive, around $30 (unlike the $150 Luminist System Enhancer CD from Purist Audio Design). :-(
A certain amount of the sound is conditioned by partnering equipment. Cables. My amp was too warm. Fuzzy and a lot of hash Change fonfo stage cabling etc this can significantly increase detail etc maybe because of noise reduction
I have always dismissed cables as snake oil. I still mostly think many cable products are just hype. However, I recently changed my speaker cables (25m distance from amp to speakers) from 16AWG to 12AWG and I couldn't believe the difference. I am not sure if it's just louder or if the sound is "warmer"... but if it is just "louder" I certainly prefer that 1dB of loudness, which somehow sounded "warmer" and more "expansive" to me.... I spent about 2hrs plugging and replugging the two sets of cables to make sure it was just my imagination.
Thanks for the very good video on the PrimaLuna One Thomas.
A quick confirmation question for you.
I will be plugging my OPPO BDP-95 Blu-ray Player/Streamer, that has a Sabre 32 DAC built in, to my tube amp.
The OPPO with my Totem Tribe Speakers is all I need for this system to be good-to-go.
Is that correct?
Thanks Thomas,
David Stein
Yes, that is all you need. Are you buying a used Prima Luna One? Prima Luna, I prefer their older models. I understand you chose it for the service, however, you speakers are Totem Tribe, I don't know if you need a lot of current for those kind of speakers to bring out the bass. As you know those speakers have very small woofer and if you cannot bring out the bass, the speakers will sound thin. EL34 is known more for voice than dynamics.
@@ThomasAndStereo
I bought the PrimaLuna ProLogue 2.
My Totem Tribe speakers are pretty efficient.
The used tube amp I purchased comes with a 3 year parts & labor warranty. The tubes come with a 6 month warranty.
New Chinese Tube amps come with only a 1 year warranty.
I bought my tube unit from Upscale Audio in California
As you probably know I w, they are a PrimaLuna dealer.
Thomas, you made several points here. I am a bit confused. Are you thinking that the amp I bought might not be a good match for my speakers?
On another 🎵 (pun intended), I am looking down the road to get more of, what you call,that "old tube sound".
I will probably have to buy different tubes to get some of that flavor out of the sound of my stereo system.
(Any suggestions?)
Agreed. that's why I have a vacuum tube pre amplification and FM (1960's Pilot) and solid state power amplification. Tube warmth with air and bass punch. I used NOS rectifier and 12ax7 preamp and tuner tubes. I've tried new Sovteks and found the performance and quality a let down.
sovteks are rather thin. tung sol is much better. I have a ST-70 amp, there is no way I would rather listen to a SS amp again.
Great video Thomas !
Very interesting product. Have you tried different speaker with the PL?
I am trying to understand how to select speakers with tube amps. I was told that higher speaker impedance is usually desired and should be the main criteria over speaker sensitivity, technically speaking. Should it really be a concern ?
I did try with all kind of speakers even those that are close to $10k. I would say it sounds great for the top end and mid range. Bass, is just ok. I understand the speaker impedance issue but I don't have a lot of knowledge with it. One thing I learned in the audio world is 1+1 does not always equal to 2 and you don't know until you plug it in. There have been some surprised along my journey.
Nothing meh about Primalunas stuff, best deal in HiFi! Stock tubes are perfectly good, don't believe the hype. If you want ss sound (newer sound) get the PL gear, they are all in push pull config. You want chubby warm, go s.e.t.
Hi Thomas your a pleasure to listen to..
But, is bass comparable considering the low power of SET integrated amps? I'm a low volume listener (< 80 dB) with average efficiency speakers. Decware? Thanks! (Have PL Prologue 2 currently).
The newer Prima Luna are supposedly improved. Fuller sound tubes seem to be slower and don't get the musicalness as accurately as thinner sounding tubes with great quickness. Tone is important with tubes too, especially if your speakers have great tonal qualities. Good power conditioning can get the grit out of the sound and make the tone (color, warmth) smoother and sound better.
I just need to get my hands on one to try. Thanks for the comment.
@@ThomasAndStereo PLEASE do Thomas! Evo 100 Integrated (with the precious Pre-Out that I desperately need to biamp :D)
Thank You for your comments 🙏
Hoping to hear about the Freya. Also, any tube upgrade recommendations for the Freya would be very appreciated!
I run a set of the BBC LS3/5’s clones with a 50 watt Rotel power amp. The bass sounds are amazing.
Great video Thomas!!!! Very interesting!!!
Hello Thomas,
I am Kartono Ali from Indonesia.
Just bought a nos Primaluna Prologue One yesterday.
May I know what are the tube brand/type that you are currently using with your Primaluna P1.
Well done. How about a video exploring the Musical Paradise MP-402? I can find nothing online about this integrated but for under $1K, with 75 WPC, it sure looks promising. It would be nice to hear impressions of the sound from the FU25/1625 tubes.
The output is 50W, which is powerful, but the bass gets distorted when Iturn up the volume. I wonder why? ?
Hello Thomas, interesting when you mention old tube amps vs. new amps. Point-to-point wiring was how tube amps were wired many years ago - long before printed circuit boards. This is why us guitarists prefer vintage tube amps from 60s, 70s (especially Fender amps). There are point-to-point hand wired and are more chimney, organic sounding (for lack of better word). As you know printed circuits board is more modern and most amps use them now. So the fact that the PrimaLuna is point-to-point would indicate that it's using older technique - don't you agree?
Hope you had a good time at Montreal Audio Fest. We are waiting for your new room tour.
Thanks! This year, I just filmed a few rooms I thought was interesting so it's not going to be a long 3 part video. Regarding point to point, I am now very curious. My friend actually have the marantz 7 that is mentioned in upscale audio video and I am thinking asking him to bring over to try. Although the Prima Luna uses the 'older technique', it does not sound like the vintage gear at all.
Hey Thomas could you ask your vintage friend for how long could you use tubes? Those tubes are vintage and tubes supposed to degraded in sound quality with time so how do you know when to change it?
Thank you in advance!
Tubes life span depends on the type of tubes you use. Some will last for 3000 hours while others 10k hours. When you play with NOS like us, we have tube testers as shown in the video to measure the strength of the tubes before we use it.
Thank you for your reply!
very good info on new vs old sound. I love my Marantz 2230.
Yes, those gears have a certain musicality that I find missing in some more modern gear.
The best tube integrated amp I ever heard was the LEBEN
CS-600 the problem is getting one is very hard and the wait list is long and my dealer only had 1 display model. The thing is AMAZING with the best volumn knob I ever felt ever. The prima luna's I heard were kind of not to my taste though and slightly cheaper sounding even though they had premium pricing. You really need super efficient speakers for them in opinion. The all japanese made Leben blew it out of the water BUT sometimes with this stuff you just can't get it. I will tell you the Leben makes bass and it was able to make a pair of inefficient and harder to drive Harbeth 30.1's its bitch. It is rated at 32 watts but more like double that I think...The Hyodo-san who makes these things is one of the top tube guys in Japan.
I see, I don't know much about Leben but it is now on my radar. If it can drive a harbeth 85db speaker well, then it's something I really like to try.
@@ThomasAndStereo They are a small company he only has like 5-6 employees and they make 1 amp a day. The guy came from Luxman and was like running product development there for 20 years or something. So he knows his stuff.
Good video, great topic! That's why a lot of people are going round and round searching for that elusive perfect balance 😊
Thanks. Yeah, both side has it's own strength and I guess everyone is trying to find that gear that has best of both worlds.
@@ThomasAndStereo "old gears" like the original Marantz they have the tonal richness that us "tone whores" lust after. After watching your video, it reminded me why I'm not using my 7 & 8b after their original tubes are done, it took forever to search and a lot of money to find the same sound again. Still not the same. One day I will, I must succeed ...... TY
Yeah, I should ask my friend to bring over his Marantz 7 to see what the big fuss is about.
If you’re into tube pre’s and amp, check out Transcendent Sound products. Years ago I had one of their OTL amps and it was indeed holographic... The best tube amp I’ve ever owned. Ultimately I decided to sacrifice the magic sound of tubes for the convenience of SS.
Hi Thomas, I have the PL HP Integrated Amp with the KT150 power tubes pushing my Kanta 2's and let me tell you it gives my system Bass for days with plenty of slam given the music you play. I am more than satisfied. I also tried the SQ with a SS Yamaha Adventage AVR and the PL blew it away. I just ordered a Lumin T2 DAC and I can't wait to try it with my PL. Will update later.
Yeah, you are talking about the Kanta, 50w ss is plenty. You have KT150 too, the better newer tubes. It's funny you talk about Lumin, they are well known in asia and I am supposed to review one of those dac in my future video.
@@ThomasAndStereo Ok cool, I will let you know my impressions of the Lumin T2 DAC when I put it together. 😊
Hello Thomas, What is your opinion on PrimaLuna Evo 400 and 300 Tube integrated amplifier? Is the 400 worth the extra $1K over the 300? Which is better Solid State or Tubes in your view? Thanks.
My friend had the EVO 400 and I wish it had a bit more tubish sound. However, that is just me listening for an hour so not really conclusive. You would have to ask someone with more experience with it.
@@ThomasAndStereo Thanks
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint and experience again Thomas...much appreciated!
For clarification of your old vs. new equipment, which one has that tube sparkle...my guess is the old?
Also what cables did you use for your trial of the PriamLuna? Copper or Silver?
Well, usually, when I refer to sparkle in a speaker, it's the newer speakers. Tube, old sound would be about warmth. New tube will be more about precision. Usually I use either transparent super or siltech cables, Yter speaker cable, I don't remember because I swap around a lot to fine tune the sound.
Great video, thanks!
Last month got Primaluna Prologue Premium preamp (nice discount since new series is out), and Nord Hypex NC500 power (400w, class D), connected to Focal 1028be and Chord 2Qute DAC.
Things I noticed: very musical, full bodied sound, great imaging, vocals are gorgeous, holographic, even tho less depth, stage spreads from little bit from front of the speaker to about 1m behind, not more. SS amps before had more depth. Bass is great, very controlled and deep.
But, compared to previous SS integrated, much less details, and Focal can produce lots of it! Still not sure if thats preamp (more likely) or power amp, but will try to play with tubes.
Would be great to hear more from your friend, who has really lot of tube experience ...
Thanks, Very nice setup. The more speakers I play with, I think 1028 BE is probably something I would want to get again and settle with it. I now have the the 1027s and it has everything I want in a speaker. I had the 1028 BE before and it's definitely more refined. Strange that there is less depth. I never heard the premium preamp from Prima so no idea. For tubes, there is a user NosTubes58 in the comment section and he is an expert. Perhaps message him in this comment section and he will reply to you? Perhaps one day I will make a video on tubes in more detail but I have very limited knowledge.
@@ThomasAndStereo thanks for reply. It was a long process to get Focal sound right, and as you already said in one of your previous video, Focal likes power (and more musical/warmer front end! Not Naim as they like to present it at hifi shows and stores!). At least those older models, looks like new Kanta is not that demanding.
Primaluna is usually recommended component at their price point at that the reason I bought it without previous audition, Stereophile is using Prologue preamp as a reference in its price range.
Now into (expensive) tube-rolling hell to get back those details:(
Will check out NosTubes58 comments, thanks!
Can you ask your friend if a 6SN7 can be replaced with a 6N23P. on a Freya+ ?
Very cool subject thanks!!
As usual, a very enjoyable and informative 15 mins. Furthermore, that Nora Jones CD didn't go unnoticed!
I would be interested in your opinion of Croft valve amps and preamps. Point-to-point soldering also and superbly priced, British made Hifi by Glenn Croft. Of course I am biases as I own one!
Thanks! I never heard Croft but am curious now. There are so many good gear out there that I wished I have deeper pockets.
Line Magnetic..some of their models shd give you both tight bass and holographic tube sound
Hi Thomas, do you have any experience with Ming Da tube electronics? I ran across their website and would like to know your thoughts on the sound.
Only on one of their tube monoblocs. It was just ok but they were listed I think at $4k so I felt it was too expensive for the sound I was getting. However, it's not a fair evaluation because I used those tube amps on an efficient pair of speakers. If I used them on my Zu today, it might be a different story.
Basically, Thom, you need to try the newest Prologue or Dialog Primalunas, you have actually hinted about. I think you may be satisfied with them.
Hi Thomas thank you for another insightful review. You seem to be reviewing the amps I am keen in. Am now comparing Prima Luna Evo 100 or Schiit Freya + as a preamp to my power amp XTZ A 2 300 . I have never used tubes and am now keen in venturing into. Which do you think is a better match with the XTZ. Appreciate your advice pl.
I have never tried the EVO 100 so I would not know. Sorry.
Noted with tks Thomas
Great video Thomas, I was contemplating between the Cayin and Primaluna path. Any opinion on the Primaluna and the KEF LS50 passives ?
The LS50 are not easy to drive. I am using it with the ATOLL 30 with 30watt and it distorts and a bit louder than normal volume. The Primaluna has a bit more watt but i am not sure it will drive the LS50 efficiently.
Hi Thomas! I need your advice on my dilemma. I'm torn between yamaha as1100 and primaluna dialogue premium integrated amp. I currently have klipsch forte I as my speakers. What should I pick between the two?
Myself being an owner of Heritage Klipsch speakers, an A-S1100 and Cayin tube amp, I suggest you definitely go with a tube amp (a quiet one such as Primaluna or Cayin). While the 1100 is a great amp, those horns do benefit from some taming which a good tube amp will provide. I don't care for my Heresys when powered by my 1100, but they sound as good as can be with the Cayin.
Hi Mark, sorry, I never heard the AS1100 so I have no idea how it would sound with the forte.
Hey Tom you have attention on two products you've reviewed fairly recently. The Buchardt S400 speakers and the Primaluna amp. The Buchardts are only rate at 88 how dynamic were they driven with the Primaluna amp ?
It's been a few months already so I don't remember. The only thing I remember is that the only thing that drastically changed was the bass compared to a high power amp. Sorry.
So the bass was better with the Primaluna and how much power was it also what tubes were they ?
@@mariosupa4027 yes. Those were 45 watt I think. GE tubes made in canada.
I'm using an Audio Research VT 200 rated at 200 watts with the S400 so you think the Primaluna will be better ?
No it will not be. I am very familiar with the VT200 and it's a great amp. My friend has it and i lived with it for a while. The VT200 has more the old sound but it is holographic while the primaluna is not as tuby sounding as the vt200.
I always feel if there any better way to bi-amp , with 1 tube amp connect to mid to high frequency while solid states connect to low frequency. Since tube amp give much holographic experience while solid state give wrap up bass. But my concern is what are the factor need to take note of when pairing both amps? What are the measures taken for the pre-amp? The most important the synergy of the character of both power amps?
I agree with you on the musicality vs analactical sounding of every equipment. Thumbs up.
That is precisely what I am trying to do with my system, but most of these dang tube integrated amps DON'T have a bloody Pre-Out to run another amp for the low-end. That is currently what I am doing with SS amps two Dual-Mono preamps/amps for the two tall high-end dipole line-arrays and a Crown 2502 400/side amp to run the two 15" open dipole woofers. I would frigg'n LOVE to find a nice integrated tube amp with the damn Pre-Out. The primaluna Evo 100 actually DOES have one but, I wish the Willsenton R-8 had one, I would probably snag it! But, sadly like most, it doesn't have one : (
I highly suggest you listen to PrimaLuna EVO 400 pre amp and power amps in a mono setup. Use the balanced interconnection. This is what I have along with an EAT E Glo S phono preamp or the Schiit Grungnir Multibit. I'm the guy with the Turnberry GR speakers and REL S/5 subs. The imagining and base you talk about is in this setup. The key to subs is to limit the presence of them. I do not want to hear my subs until I turn them off. They are only to complete what the speakers cannot do. Too many people set subs to high and they have a presence. Not my advice.
Hi Thomas; very insightful presentation.
What about hybrid integrated amplifiers (tube input stages)? I am looking at amplifiers that will drive magnepan loudspeakers such as Vincent audio or Rogue audio. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
I have the Pathos Logos and it's very good. Too bad I have quality issues with my both unit. But for sound, amazing.
Hi Thomas, there's no way you've tried these with a Mcintosh MA252 by any chance? I found Primaluna Prologue One for about 2000 euro, the Mcintosh is around 3500 in Europe. Both is a lot of money so I'm thinking whether I should just go for the famous Mcintosh - which doesn't necessarily mean it would outperform the Primaluna, but there's the itch - what if
I never heard the MA252 so I can't really comment. I have the PAthos logos and kevin from upscale audio compared it to the MA252 and said the Pathos is better. Now, if I were to guess, the MA252 will have better control of bass given it's a hybrid. The Prima will be more holographic. Your choice of speaker is very important for this decision. I personally prefer more power and control of bass.
Thomas did you try the PrimaLuna with Dynaudio S5.4?
No I did not, I doubt it can drive it with authority.
You are right about the bass with tubes. less controlled even with my Prima Luna 5 kt88s
Yup, I even tested other $7k , $12k integrated tube amps with the same conclusion. Those are KT150 too. They are good but when compared to SS equivalent class, they do fall behind when it comes to bass.
@@ThomasAndStereo I had big VTL tube power amp and various pre amps, quite good sound overall , but too soft in the bass , poor compared to my ss , and the music seemed slightly slow , shame as it was soooo expensive in my country. The newer ones today are quite different aparently,
I notice you emphasize a lot on holographic imaging, are you familiar with the "OHM" brand of speakers? Im curious as to where they stand in regards to holographic imaging.
One of the issue with those kind of speaker is that it's imaging is not as define as a traditional good setup. Omni directional speaker has it's strength but comes with it's draw back. That is me also listening to Omni speakers that are $60k+
Another excellent breakdown👌💥💥
Thanks Dion!
Thomas, have you ever thought of bi-amping to improve that (for you only marginal) weakness in the bass? I use two Belles 350 A Refetence amps which does not only increase bass impact but also overall clarity. What works with solid state should work for tube amps as well.
Sure, only thing is the amp must have a gain control.
Great reviews both interesting tubes on both musical and tight or neutral sounds tunes. What’s best tubes for jazz and vocals.
Oh, that I don't know but if you look at the comment section in this video, there is a tube guru NOStube58 , respond to his comment and see if he answered you.
Thomas & Stereo thanks