The pre turbo throttle body and supercharger waste gate is doing the exact same job and not required. Compound setups like this should run air in to the turbo first, then through the supercharger and use a throttle body to bypass round the supercharger at the desired boost level. Then the supercharger becomes free spinning with equal boost on both sides.
If the Pre-Turbo body was an actual throttle body - Yes, Unfortunately we dont have enough outputs on the ECU to run a second DWB Body, we can however use this butterfly valve with PWM Activation through RPM. We tried it the way you describe (Turbo Feeding Charger) and we just couldn't get it to work correctly. After reading how Lancia, VW & nissan ran these systems (Charger Feeding Turbo). The whole setup became much easier to work.
Fair enough, we did it the way I described on a 2.0 G60 16v with stock supercharger and T71 massive turbo and it have zero lag and make 11 psi at full throttle just off idle and could make 25 psi by 2000rpm but still flowed 25psi at 8000rpm. If your setup is working for you then that good. Your fabrication looks amazing by the way.
Can u show us ur tool to make the bewel/lips for holding the silicone tubes. Looked rly nice. I made a diy one but I'm interested in getting a better on ein the future :) :)
I know little about super chargers and nothing about compound charging lol but on low RPM partial throttle what is it that picks up the revs if there is no conventional throttle body?
We still have a Throttle Body in its usual place. Just imagine this as a conventional Turbo Setup. Just we are force feeding the turbo boost from the supercharger to spool it quicker. Once the turbo is on full boost, the supercharger turns off via the electric clutch and stops making boost, the valve on the air filter opens to allow the turbo to draw directly from the air filter.
Things that you need to consider. The supercharger inlet is in general too small, in your case it is probably fine cause you are just going for low end power. If it becomes a problem just put a second filter on the inlet of the charger and call it a day. The wastegate on the supercharger is fine and venting it to the atmosphere is perfectly fine since you are not using a maf. I had my eaton supercharged Polo G40 setup like that, worked with no issues. Here is where you need to be careful. Simply controlling the bypass for the turbo with rpm is not going to work well. Load on the engine is what spools the turbo and not rpm so the better option is to take a boost signal after the turbo and use overall boost to determine when the bypass opens and closes and when the charger engages and disengages.
Also (and I am being cheeky here) this is a twincharged setup and not a compound setup, Compound would be if the one was feeding the other constantly and the better option there would be the turbo feeding the charger since the turbo can flow more volume of air at high rpm.
The charger is feeding the turbo at low RPM. So it is a compound setup - Just not for the full RPM Range.@@Ismaak5 This is a back-dated video from July... Im slowly catching up on the videos which will show it working in all its glory.
@@GizFab Yes I saw the video I understand how its plumbed. You are making 5 psi till the turbo spools up and then the turbo takes over bypassing the charger and makes even more boost. So the charger is there just to spool the turbo faster, it doesn't provide more volume than the turbo can flow, or there wouldn't be a need for a bypass. That is called twincharged. That is not compounding. Compounding means I have lets say a turbo that flows X amount of air volume at 1 bar and I am putting bigger turbo at its inlet that makes 2X amount of air volume at 0.5 bar and end up with 2x amount of air volume at 1.5 bar at the outlet of the first turbo making the engine both responsive and able to make big power (oversimplified for the example). Essentially for your setup the charger is bypassed as soon as it becomes a restriction for the turbo, its not providing extra volume of air for the turbo than what is can flow on its own.
I mean, We have the ability to not turn the charger off. Simple Map Switch means it can compound all the way if needed. It can be Twin Charge, It can be compound. Works either way@@Ismaak5
@@GizFab If you can rev it out and never have the need to open the bypass, then what is the point of having the turbo? Adding pressure to the same volume of air doesn't make any difference in horsepower, there isn't more air to burn more fuel. If the charger can flow enough volume that the turbo doesn't starve then what is the point of switching over? You would only make up for the parasitic loses of the charger but I don't see any other benefit. With the bypass closed the charger flows a set amount of air per revolution, even if the turbo could up the boost at it's outlet there is not more air at it's inlet, so essentially you are not getting any benefit from the turbo. In reality it can't that is not how this works, the turbo reaches an equilibrium where the pressure from the charger passes throw it with no resistance and it can't go over that. Cause then there would be pressure drop and then vacuum between the charger and the turbo thus the turbo would lose boost at it's inlet. No compounding is happening, that is why I am saying this is not a compound setup. It would be if the compressor can flow more air than the turbo which then makes the turbo redundant. I am really sorry if this is bothering you and I sound like an internet cunt, I am genuinely trying to help.
As someone with plans to compound charge a Honda K24 can you link us to the Josh Thorton person you referenced in your video? Love the content, good work!
Instead of the electronically actuated cutout. You could have run something that is more based on a boost reference, a boost pressure actuated flap if you would get my point. Simple cheap, it always respond when you have enough boost and when you dont, flap closed ready for supercharger to build the boost for you.
I think that will only work in a compound fashion at the crossover point only! as soon as the turbo starts to spool it will create negative pressure a the turbo inlet thus sucking on the roots blower your bypass will adjust to try and keep 5psi until the turbo is building the ~18 psi that your supercharger is pulleyed to. so you would only be compounding greater than 5psi and less than 18psi. Either way the boost threshold & Lag will be lower. Only just started watching your content and loving it :)
You don't need to bleed air from supercharger circuit that way from my experience. I use a 3" throttle body from a Nissan 350 Z that can be setup with its own bleed screw. To be honest after testing I found the best position for throttle was indeed fully closed. My system is almost identical to yours - but I run a huge crank pulley gearing up the m62 with clutch. Even then the m62 can only produce 7psi before turbo starts to spool sucking more air than supercharger can flow. Naturally bypass throttle valve comes into effect at that point.
Onya Giz, this is awesome
Thanks Guys. My offer still stands... Ever find your way this side of the pond. Come drive it (y)
Making the fab look easy ! What a great looking little set up 👍
It is easy! Dont let your dreams be dreams.
The fabrication skills and overall magic it takes to do this is mind boggling.
Years of practice!
Fantastic. Came from the Billet purge caps, re-found you due to the K swapped Micra. Subbed for this. 👍👍👌👌
Awesome, thank you!
is it running yet?
Yes and also, No.
i see you opted for the super high quality safety squints at 18:16
Sponsored by Safety Squints.
wouldn't the air rushing in after the valve opens try and rush down the output of the charger?
No, because when the valve opens, the chamber becomes ambient pressure.
@@GizFab ah of course
Could you disengage the supercharger clutch when the boost you want is achieved and use a vacuum diverter valve?
An option yes, but with the ECU Controlled valve we can change the opening point easier (y)
The pre turbo throttle body and supercharger waste gate is doing the exact same job and not required. Compound setups like this should run air in to the turbo first, then through the supercharger and use a throttle body to bypass round the supercharger at the desired boost level. Then the supercharger becomes free spinning with equal boost on both sides.
If the Pre-Turbo body was an actual throttle body - Yes, Unfortunately we dont have enough outputs on the ECU to run a second DWB Body, we can however use this butterfly valve with PWM Activation through RPM.
We tried it the way you describe (Turbo Feeding Charger) and we just couldn't get it to work correctly. After reading how Lancia, VW & nissan ran these systems (Charger Feeding Turbo). The whole setup became much easier to work.
Fair enough, we did it the way I described on a 2.0 G60 16v with stock supercharger and T71 massive turbo and it have zero lag and make 11 psi at full throttle just off idle and could make 25 psi by 2000rpm but still flowed 25psi at 8000rpm. If your setup is working for you then that good. Your fabrication looks amazing by the way.
Can u show us ur tool to make the bewel/lips for holding the silicone tubes. Looked rly nice. I made a diy one but I'm interested in getting a better on ein the future :) :)
Its a Dog-Fab bead roller. Pricey, but THE best. I had many of the cheaper crank handle ones and they dont has 2 weeks.
He's an air bender 😆
Looks similar to VW "Twincharger" layout, very nice.
How you've managed to packaged it all in is wizardry.
The very same as the VW Twin Charge layout
I know little about super chargers and nothing about compound charging lol but on low RPM partial throttle what is it that picks up the revs if there is no conventional throttle body?
We still have a Throttle Body in its usual place. Just imagine this as a conventional Turbo Setup. Just we are force feeding the turbo boost from the supercharger to spool it quicker. Once the turbo is on full boost, the supercharger turns off via the electric clutch and stops making boost, the valve on the air filter opens to allow the turbo to draw directly from the air filter.
What would prevent the air post supercharger from going through the throttle body backwards?
The supercharger won’t be moving any air as it will be turned off at the cross over.
Things that you need to consider. The supercharger inlet is in general too small, in your case it is probably fine cause you are just going for low end power. If it becomes a problem just put a second filter on the inlet of the charger and call it a day. The wastegate on the supercharger is fine and venting it to the atmosphere is perfectly fine since you are not using a maf. I had my eaton supercharged Polo G40 setup like that, worked with no issues. Here is where you need to be careful. Simply controlling the bypass for the turbo with rpm is not going to work well. Load on the engine is what spools the turbo and not rpm so the better option is to take a boost signal after the turbo and use overall boost to determine when the bypass opens and closes and when the charger engages and disengages.
Also (and I am being cheeky here) this is a twincharged setup and not a compound setup, Compound would be if the one was feeding the other constantly and the better option there would be the turbo feeding the charger since the turbo can flow more volume of air at high rpm.
The charger is feeding the turbo at low RPM. So it is a compound setup - Just not for the full RPM Range.@@Ismaak5 This is a back-dated video from July... Im slowly catching up on the videos which will show it working in all its glory.
@@GizFab Yes I saw the video I understand how its plumbed. You are making 5 psi till the turbo spools up and then the turbo takes over bypassing the charger and makes even more boost. So the charger is there just to spool the turbo faster, it doesn't provide more volume than the turbo can flow, or there wouldn't be a need for a bypass. That is called twincharged. That is not compounding. Compounding means I have lets say a turbo that flows X amount of air volume at 1 bar and I am putting bigger turbo at its inlet that makes 2X amount of air volume at 0.5 bar and end up with 2x amount of air volume at 1.5 bar at the outlet of the first turbo making the engine both responsive and able to make big power (oversimplified for the example). Essentially for your setup the charger is bypassed as soon as it becomes a restriction for the turbo, its not providing extra volume of air for the turbo than what is can flow on its own.
I mean, We have the ability to not turn the charger off. Simple Map Switch means it can compound all the way if needed. It can be Twin Charge, It can be compound. Works either way@@Ismaak5
@@GizFab If you can rev it out and never have the need to open the bypass, then what is the point of having the turbo? Adding pressure to the same volume of air doesn't make any difference in horsepower, there isn't more air to burn more fuel. If the charger can flow enough volume that the turbo doesn't starve then what is the point of switching over? You would only make up for the parasitic loses of the charger but I don't see any other benefit. With the bypass closed the charger flows a set amount of air per revolution, even if the turbo could up the boost at it's outlet there is not more air at it's inlet, so essentially you are not getting any benefit from the turbo. In reality it can't that is not how this works, the turbo reaches an equilibrium where the pressure from the charger passes throw it with no resistance and it can't go over that. Cause then there would be pressure drop and then vacuum between the charger and the turbo thus the turbo would lose boost at it's inlet. No compounding is happening, that is why I am saying this is not a compound setup. It would be if the compressor can flow more air than the turbo which then makes the turbo redundant. I am really sorry if this is bothering you and I sound like an internet cunt, I am genuinely trying to help.
As someone with plans to compound charge a Honda K24 can you link us to the Josh Thorton person you referenced in your video? Love the content, good work!
www.youtube.com/@HCRWorks
Joshs build was Rotrex, No turbo. but required a wastegate to bring the boost down for Class.
Instead of the electronically actuated cutout. You could have run something that is more based on a boost reference, a boost pressure actuated flap if you would get my point. Simple cheap, it always respond when you have enough boost and when you dont, flap closed ready for supercharger to build the boost for you.
Its activated by boost reference via the Haltech.
I think that will only work in a compound fashion at the crossover point only! as soon as the turbo starts to spool it will create negative pressure a the turbo inlet thus sucking on the roots blower your bypass will adjust to try and keep 5psi until the turbo is building the ~18 psi that your supercharger is pulleyed to. so you would only be compounding greater than 5psi and less than 18psi. Either way the boost threshold & Lag will be lower. Only just started watching your content and loving it :)
Bingo. And if the ECU allowed, we would run a 2nd controller to control the wastegate on the charger outlet. Its not perfect. But it works
You don't need to bleed air from supercharger circuit that way from my experience. I use a 3" throttle body from a Nissan 350 Z that can be setup with its own bleed screw. To be honest after testing I found the best position for throttle was indeed fully closed. My system is almost identical to yours - but I run a huge crank pulley gearing up the m62 with clutch. Even then the m62 can only produce 7psi before turbo starts to spool sucking more air than supercharger can flow. Naturally bypass throttle valve comes into effect at that point.
Just another point I forgot to mention. You'll need to bleed air from supercharger at engine idle - the wastgate wouldn't work .
@@mikebrockpug207 Thats simple. A Bov after the turbo.
Don't need to bleed it, As it will be turned off via the Electric Clutch
There was a Micra built with a similar system on the earlier Micra
march super turbo
What I understand with my poor english😢🇨🇵 is that you adpat the k10 "super turbo" prep' on K11??
Is that right?😎👍🇨🇵🇨🇵
Similar concept yes, But bigger turbo, bigger supercharger
2023 update😊😊😊
What car is that supercharger off?
Merc SLK
That's some fabrication there 👍
Really nice work but looking at all that pipework and lack of space I'm glad I only do naturally aspirated.
Turbo is much more simple to do. I just like doing the hard stuff to be different.
18:17 #safetysquint
#safetysquints plenty in stock
What supercharger are you using ?
M62