TLDW #8 - Tanto Forging Practice: Railroad Spike
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- Опубліковано 24 лип 2024
- **WARNING: This is the longer process version intended for serious students of knifemaking. Watch the overview edit here: • TimeWarp #3 - Tanto Fo...
Hand forging a classical tanto style blade study from a reclaimed railroad spike and a tsuba from the spike head...a serious letter opener? The goal is to use all of the steel by moving it into place.
This project was intended as purely a forging exercise to inspire those wishing to learn hand forging of sunobe and tanto, using an available source of scrap steel in a conveniently sized and shaped billet ("forge 10 of these and call me in the morning"). However as research into the composition and characteristics of railroad spike steel it has raised some interesting points which may lead to further research into koto swords.
First a note…
Don’t mess with the railway…if you don’t already have a spike this is not the practice material for you. The goal of this project is to use a material already on hand.
A review of some points...
High Carbon?
A railroad spike will never be "high carbon steel" as the accepted definition is that there is more than .5 or .6% carbon in high carbon steel (there are "higher carbon" versions of older spikes, but the official specs say they never pass .3% carbon)
Hardness?
A railroad spike with ~.2% carbon can be hardened with a water quench to about a maximum of 50HRC, this is not hard enough for most uses as a knife, however it is at the low end of axe hardness, harder than mild steel which maxes out around 40HRC. Additionally, many old koto and earlier swords have ~.4% carbon, which can be hardened to around 60HRC but does not meet the definition of "high carbon steel"...a further note, i did a quick hitatsura (no clay) differential quench on this piece and it gained a fair amount of sori (curvature), which i did not expect from this steel...
Toughness?
For most applications it seems the best approach with a spike is to water quench and not temper at all, in order to stay at the maximum hardness for the carbon content. A spike heat treated in this way will still not quite pass the break test, meaning there is plenty of toughness at the full hardness.
Recommendations
I still do not recommend making knives from this material other than for personal use or novelty purposes. However, as a material for a spear or sword that would excel in the bronze or early iron age, or as a tool for the forge the material is far better than mild steel or wrought iron when heat treated properly.
Railroad spikes are a good source of material for those wishing to practice and improve forging of classical tanto without wasting high carbon steel...
The final blade dimensions are 10.75" (274mm) long and 1 1/8" (29mm) by just over 1/4" (7mm) at the mune machi...point to tang tip is 15".
長さ/刃長 Nagasa: 9 sun 5 rin (274mm)
元幅 Motohaba: 9 bu 5 rin (29mm)
重ね/元重 Motokasane: 2 bu 5 rin (7mm)
反り Sori: 1 bu 2 rin (3.5mm)
中心/茎 Nakago: 3 sun 5 bu (117mm)
形 Katachi: hira-zukuri, iori-mune
中心/茎 Nakago: futsu, kuri-jiri, one mekugi-ana
銘 Mei: mumei
Read more: islandblacksmith.ca/2016/07/ta...
A chart comparing carbon content and maximum possible hardness:
books.google.ca/books?id=fVIl...
3.03022 cm
= 0.1 shaku（尺）
= 1 sun（寸）
= 10 bu（分）
= 100 rin（厘）
By far , one of the most beautiful knifemaking video Ive seen --- the sound , light , the pace , camera and the knife itself ( elegant , simple ,beautiful ) --- very pleasant to watch .
I love this video, I honestly rolled one up and sat back and watched the best thing in a long while. Thanks for sharing!
Everytime i want to relax and meditate about a project i always come to this video somethong about watching this wonderful work being done is always a joy
one of the most beautiful video Ive seen on knifemaking -- inspiring , ilustrative ; thanks for sharing !
much appreciate, thanks for watching through the slow (real-time) version ^___^
This is a great video I am going to give it a go this weekend out of some half inch round stock
GREAT JOB !! This is by for the BEST video I have seen in regards to forging a tanto. I can't wait to get to my shop and try this myself. I also love your other videos. Keep up the great work.
This helped me figure out steps to make a Tanto from a railroad spike I found.
Impresionante, gracias por compartir. Excelente trabajo.
You are truly an inspiration, I looked at your website and your work is fantastic. Tradition and honour and an earthy feeling of nostalgia for a time long past 😁🌸 I hope to someday match you in skill! From a young novice bladesmith 🌺
keep at it, lots of info for the careful observer on the website!
Gobble gobble. Turkey approves of your work, and I think it's awesome. I'm gonna start working on a tanto style with railroad spikes for practice. (I have a box of about 100 hahaha, so I already have the materials).
...they do make an enthusiastic cheering section! i recommend forging to a kata for best results, you can find one of the lovliest here for digital download: soulsmithing.com/product-category/kata/
info about kata: islandblacksmith.ca/2019/07/making-tanto-kata/
Your chickens seem to like when you make gardes.
turkeys
The temperature is spot on in midevil times the heat metal to a Malabar temperature
great video!! thanks jim
Très belle prestation
Can you make a video of how youy blower and forge works?
How long does it take to forge one blade of that size?
After seeing this hammer I will never walk past a piece of round solid steel ever again.
yep, all you need for bladesmithing is one or two good hammers!
This is a good video, and when I moved from minor artistic blacksmithing work to blade smithing, cheap or free railroad spikes were certainly a good way to hone your skills. However as a blade forger as well (and I have bloomery steel, and even some NBTHK tamahagane - what the japanese make real swords out of.....aquired from a smith I had commissioned a sword from), and railroad spikes are fairly mild steel....There is a fair amount of cold forging that I see here, the metal is grey and still being struck....Many good knife steels that are available as opposed to cheaper and mild steels would develop micro cracks, or full crack, if hit at that low of a temperature.....I just wanted to point that out. I also hold a metallurgical degree....I know what I am talking about when it comes to forging cold or hot steel.....So do not try that with your expensive W2 or something
have you read the description yet for the details on the carbon content issue? it is quite interesting...and you can watch my other forging videos to see how i forge (low alloy) high carbon steel...most people are surprised to see how low certain forging operations are carried out in the japanese tradition...certainly takes care and a feel for the steel, and some of the issue is discerning between serious forging vs. surface forging, planishing, and straightening...
Perfect !!!! Amazing!!!!!
When I can notice it. Ever hammer blow seems so methodical. But it's like let's make this the same way but with 50 less hammer blows mind set.
Great Video !!! Why is water used on the anvil when forging? Is it to cool the side on the anvil to make it move less than the top side that is being hit by hammer?
the resulting steam explosions blast off the firescale and keep the surface clean...
Great work. I make railway spike knives to sell and am just keeping up with demand. Never new there was so much steel in then though, lol. Very nice video.
yes, lots of steel...not much carbon... ^___^
Maybe not in the spikes here in Australia, they are not marked HC. But in the USA they have the initials HC on the head, i take that to mean high carbon?Crossed Heart Forge - islandblacksmith
yes, some are marked HC, but it does not mean "high carbon steel" in the metallurgical sense, it means a "higher carbon" version rail spike, but all the official specs i have seen say they never pass .3% carbon (the normal spikes are .12%)...
Very impressive I only have one question about the blade dimensions. How thick is the spine of the blade? I cannot seem to find it in the description. Also I live in Nanaimo and was wondering if I would be able to visit your workshop one day as I have been slowly learning the art. Keep up the amazing work
the dimension you are looking for is called kasane or motokasane to be specific...keep studying! ..it is possible sometimes with a bit of arrangements via email, though you will learn much more on the website with careful study...keep at it!
Hi! What are your thoughts on wet forging - Adding water to the anvil so the steam created when forging blows the slag off?
oop, you actually use wetforging later in the vid. i suppose i should be more patient haha
haha, yep it's great!
How can you tell when the piece gets too cold to work? Is it by color, or by how the steel moves? Both?
yes, both...also changes depending on the lighting, the type of steel, and the type of work being done...
I loved your video, really nice and thorough. I have one question, Why out of a railroad spike? I have heard that they don't make nice blades. Is it because they are cheap and it's for practice? Is it meant to be a decoration or a letter opener? Please explain.
yes! using spikes as practice for forging is a way to learn for those studying classical tanto...right amount of material if you have the
resource...there's quite a bit of info on those very topics in the description, or here: islandblacksmith.ca/2016/07/tanto-forging-practice-railroad-spike/
Wow, that was impressively quick. Is there a certain place to "look for" railroad spikes? I say "look for" because it is illegal to look for them.
yep, don't mess with the railway...best source would be the scrap yard with the rr contracts, or ask a crew for a couple...bottom line is if you don't already have a spike this is not the practice material for you ^___^
Yeah, I guess so. I was thinking about getting in to knife making. Do you have any videos/books you would reccomend.
i have a list, but they are entirely focused on traditional japanese swordsmithing: islandblacksmith.ca/product-category/books-apparel-gear/books-resources/
Is there enough carbon in railroad spike steel to create nice cutting edge?
passable perhaps (like a soft-ish axes edge), but not a nice edge that will hold well...more details in the description...
i have two questions for you: how can i find out, if the knife i'm forging has the right dinensions, even though i don't own one? and: do you know any european wood to replace the expensive magnolia for saya making?
the best way to learn to forge tanto is to work to kata based on antiques, you can make your own: islandblacksmith.ca/2014/04/aizu-shintogo-kunimitsu-tanto-kata/
or get some pre-cut from Pierre Nadau: soulsmithing.com/product-category/kata/
there are some additional geometry details in this series: islandblacksmith.ca/tag/tanto-geometry/
the wood should be very stable, non-acidic, low-resin, resistant to moisture, medium hardness for shock resistance, and closed grained...
wow man wow
How did young Japanese smiths practice their skills? Or did they not have to practice, seeing as how they were usually from a family of smiths, and their introduction into the world of smithing was an early affair? Is it possible that they were constantly absorbing the correct method and their skills grew as they took on more difficult tasks in the family shop?
Great video!
Nathan
i think your last hypothesis is closest...the traditional model of apprenticeship in Japan is that the teacher does not teach, instead the student is responsible to observe and glean information while doing assigned work at an appropriate level...here is an article with links to more information on traditional apprenticeship: islandblacksmith.ca/2015/05/on-swordsmith-apprenticeship/
Crossed Heart Forge - islandblacksmith Thanks for the info.
how many hours did this take from start to finish do you think?
as i recall it was about 3h or so...add more filing/polishing if it were to become a finished blade and it would get much longer in a hurry...
nice!
I see you doing a lot of cold hammering, is this because you are using a rr spike? As i understand things, harder steels will chip if you do hammer work while cold.
i suppose that would depend on your definition of "cold" and of "hammering"...when the colour is gone it is still around 1000F or more depending how bright the day is, whereas the brittle blue stage of steel (even mild low carbon steel) is around 600F (this is why you should hammer a rivet hot or cold but not in the middle where the brittle zone is)...hammering to deform needs to be hotter than hammering to bend, smooth, planish, or straighten, this is why closer to the end of each heat and of the entire process the forging temperature gets lower...working too hot is not good for high carbon steel either, but in time you will develop a feel for how much heat or hammering the work can endure at each stage...
Crossed Heart Forge - islandblacksmith ty for the reply, i am an aspiring bladesmith, im headed out to a SOFA quadstate meet here soon with some savings to get started in earnest soon, im really trying to up my knowledge in metallurgy, so i am very thankful for your reply, after rewatching it appears you are straightening the blade while it is "colder"?... Anyway you have got my appreciative sub ty!
yes, deformation (squishing) needs lots of heat to prevent fracturing but straightening can be done at a much lower heat, even cold to a certain extent...keep it really simple and go for it, time is very short!
LOL I just posted something explaing the same....RR spikes are good for practice but that amount of cold forging can only be done on mild steels, qualitry blade steels will develop micro cracks or crack completely if hit that low of temperature...I have metallurgy degree, and I am also a knife maker...your commment is spot on~!
@@islandblacksmith Yeah, but if you forge say W2, or 1095, hitachi white, etc....under 1500....you are sort of asking for trouble...You get the 2000-1500 range to form them throw it back in for a minute or two to heat up....I posted above and I aploud you for putting up good videos for aspiring smiths....RR spikes were something I used for practice, initially old school blacksmith artistry or hooks, joinery etc....to hone my skills, and for those purposes they are great...However for a blade I also used for practice, and to make blades to use to practice my free hand grinding, but they are basically mild steel......I am only pointing that out for the aspiring smiths, as if they go sink 25$ into a nice piece of blade steel thining they can make a knife and end up cracking it all to hell because they were hitting it cold.......well, just saying
Love the finished piece and instruction! When you forged your bevels, it didn’t look like you angled your blade at all- most videos I’ve watched say to angle your blade to forge bevels. Is this a different technique- you have me extremely curious, as this is where I struggle massively.
no i don't really think about "lifting" the blade, though there is a tiny element of it the proper angle is quite small (and too much would be worse than none)...remember the anvil is "hitting" the back side of the steel with almost as much force as the hammer on the front...
Okay, thank you. Gonna keep practicing!
it is also important to note that is for hizukuri (single bevel) as most tanto are...for shinogi-zukuri (as most katana are) you would have to lift enough to form the shinogi-ji separate from the bevel and centered...
love your work! once question / request, is there anyway you could edit the anvil ring out a little from the audio? i don't know if you wear hearing protection but it does get hard to listen to aha but then again i could always mute the video i guess! either way, love the content and the fact you skate!
yep, you'll just have to turn off the audio or wear your own hearing protection, just part of the experience!
ahaha love the idea of wearing hearing protection whilst watching youtube videos!
yes! do it! (^___^)
+Crossed Heart Forge - islandblacksmith I have to say I enjoy hearing the sounds. Volume control is a great option.
Did i miss somthing? HC means a high carbon version but normal spikes are higher in carbon than those marked HC? I apologise in advance for my ignorance or misunderstanding. Thankyou also for your quick replies, your tutorials and those of Chandler Dickerson are among the best.
Sorry in my last reply i got Chandlers name wrong. Of course you would have noticed, it's actually Dickinson, cheers.
not sure where you got that idea, yes, some are marked HC, but it does not mean "high carbon steel" in the metallurgical sense, it means a "higher carbon" version rail spike, but all the official specs i have seen say they never pass .3% carbon (the normal spikes are .1%-.2%)...
should a handle be wider than a blade at the base
A question since it seems to be impossible to find proper sources , traditionally speaking did tantos have a secondary bevel/edge or is the blade continuous towards the edge , or does it even matter as long as its the general shape?
japanese swords are continuous with a couple of specific exceptions...check out islandblacksmith.ca/tag/tanto-geometry/
and www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/information.html
@@islandblacksmith Oh wow , thanks a lot i didnt even know about this , cheers!
How heavy is the first hammer that you use?
the very first one, for the cut? i think it says 8lbs. on the head...the next to finish the cut might be about 3lbs., the first forging stage maybe 5 or 6lbs...but i never weighed any of them...between 4-5 and 2-3 is a good general pair for most people...
I thought they were turkeys in the background lol 😆😆😆😆
indeed!
what are the dimensions of the blade you made
lots of info in the description...
What weight hammers do you use? I just picked up my first dog head hammer, at 8lbs, forged by Shaun Cunningham of Front Step Forge.
ah, i saw him working on that one...are you using it as a mukozuchi sledge or just super heavy tanren hammer? most smiths use two sizes of hand hammer for most bladesmithing, a larger one for rough work, 1.5kg-2kg (~3.5lbs-4.5lbs), and a smaller one for finishing, 1.2kg-1.4kg (~2.5lbs-3lbs)...
Sorry for my terminology not being all there right now, I just got off an especially busy day of work. Im using the 8lb sledge for tanren, as most of my stock is 4"x1/2" leaf spring from something massive and I find my 4lb sledge doesnt cut it. For my more delicate work, I have a 2lb italian rounding hammer, but I am working on a 3lb doghead hammer from 1045. I have my 8lb hung on a 24" handle, so it is small enough for one hand use, but big enough to be swung like a mukozuchi sledge. I have some various hammers of different sizes and shapes for different work too, but i want to get some doghead hammers made for my bladesmith work.
ah, ok...not tanren, which is the folding and refining, but everything after that...louie mills uses an 8lb one hand hammer for tanren, it will get you in shape: ua-cam.com/video/eSfurMT0TY0/v-deo.html
Crossed Heart Forge - islandblacksmith like I said, terminology isn't all there haha. Yeah, it's definitely a beast to swing one handed. It definitely helps move stock though.
yep, and the impact goes deeper with a heavier hammer, there is a max size billet you can handle with a certain hammer weight no matter how hard you hit...
where did you learn your skills
i am still learning, it is a long journey! my first tutoring was at the age of 14 under a career smith in amish country, i have worked with a couple of smiths along the way and done lots of practice work on my own since then, more recently the internet has become a way to research traditional tools and techniques, observe details and methods, etc...
Those turkey background noise makes me to believe this smithing shop is not in Japan -
Like the narrow forge hammer, more concentrated point load per pound
Sick revert bro
(^____^)
Why you reverse the tip ? Find it unusual.
that is the way it is always done...preserves the grain flow for layered steel and the core for kobuse construction...and it just works!
Is the railroad spike hardenable steel?
you will find a fascinating and detailed discussion of that topic in the description...
Railroad spikes are a medium grade steel.. approx a 1045
would be great if they were but they are not...plenty of info in the description and link to the website re official specs on the 2 types of spike steel...spoiler alert: they max out at .3% and most are .15%...so the hardest you could get them with a quench and no temper is about 40-55hrc...
Great video I enjoyed it a lot but could not understand what language you were speaking bsouded like Turkish
yep! ^__^
What is that block for at the end of the video?
not sure what you mean about the end, but around the 20:00 mark there is a wooden straightening block on the anvil, to prevent marring the already forged peak in the spine when correcting the bend...
@@islandblacksmith Yeah thats what i meant. Nice to see an answer even though its an old video!
Your work has inspired me to be more "traditional" when making knifes. My powertools are beginning to gather dust :-)
...the technology hasn't changed ^___^ ...keep at it!
These japanese hammers looks like having more control ... excuse me my bad english ,I learned your language by reading and watching movies
yes, it depends on the balance, but they do work well for thin steel (like blades)
🙋. WoW 😁 I too learn english, 😁 . También lo hago aprendo de un poco así, pero no habló ni sé Nada 🙋‼‼✔ Saludos 🌹
Dogs head hammers are very heavy forward facing...I have a 3lb and a 5.5 lb, althoug I rarely use the 5.5 now...I prefer my bladesmithing hammer from Brent Bailey for most forming, but for beveling work, which is where a dog head hammer comes in great, they work!!!!! However in my opinion you need various hammers from rounding, to flats, to dog head, etc....depending on the project you are working on
@@fanton777doy9 UA-cam is great to learn Spanish , English and French . Probably most of the translations are in English . But reading books is very important
@@islandblacksmith I've never seen a hammer like that in any shop in Brazil . I mean , that with one head longer than the other . Looks like I would have to forge it .
形お真似しても、心が無ければ、只のナイフだね！
I have a deaf.. blind cat who sounds Exactly like that Turkey gobbling when he scratches his ear by kicking with his back foot..
Exactly
interesting! ...but does he make a noise when no one is around to hear it? ^___^
@@islandblacksmith yes.. hes deaf and has no way of gauging how loud he is.. I can hear him yelping when I'm outside nowhere near him..
Is that a wooden hammer you are using?
Or is it brass or a brass alloy of some sort? It doesn't make a metallic sound when it hits the metal or the anvil is the reason I ask.
just regular steel hammers, but hot steel doesn't make a metallic sound, it feels more like hitting a piece of wood...as it cools down near the end you can begin to hear it harden again...
🌐. 🌹❗❗❗ 🔨⚒🔄🔛💪 WoW ‼ 🍀An artist... Thanks 👏✔ saludos...
Old video, new video?
new...haha, but does it matter? not much changes in my shop, just me! ^___^
Crossed Heart Forge - islandblacksmith :) nice job, no problem.
Ah i see. it was just that in one of your replies you wrote .12%, i guess you meant .1% or .2%. thanks.
no, i meant .12% in the original, less than half of .3%....steel carbon content (even high carbon steel) is almost always less than one percent. (also, if you would reply to the previous comments all of these would be together to help other folks follow along too)
عمل رائع لمازا لا تصنع سيف طويل
Am I the only one who heard a turkey at 1:45
i doubt it! ^____^
I wanna ride lumi :D
01:29 lol
Island Blacksmith you should make a tanto blade out of a file. I know its easy but you would be surprised by it turns out if you leave some of the teeth on the file. I should know because I might be the only one that can make one of the best looking ones compared to what I've seen on youtube. I wish to see one from you soon.
files make great knives if heat treated properly...you can see some examples in the tools for satoyama project on my website...
Can’t help but feel you would have more consistent hammer strikes if you took your gloves off.. 🤣🤣 super joking!!!
thanks for the marathon! i actually prefer it too, but these days it is sometimes so far between i gotta prevent blisters ^___^
That sure is soft steel.
certainly when it is hot! ..you will find a discussion of the carbon content and recommended use in the description...
既に刀鍛冶の業と眼を備えていますね。
鉄を無用に延ばしてしまわない槌使いも見事だと思います。
刃の美しさを最大限に表現するためには、研ぎ方に尚一段の研究をなさってはと思いますが。そこが残念。
これほどの業を持っていて、何故「刀」に拘るのかが不思議です。
この業で洋式のナイフを打てば、大成功は容易いでしょうに。
your right arm is probably huge and left arm not so much ^.^
it might seem so at first thought, but actually the left arm is doing quite a bit of work even during the forging stages, maintaining pressure on the tongs, fighting against the hammer blows, and running the fuigo for air whilst heating...not to mention filing and polishing which are a pretty even match...
but I bet you could do some Japanese crucible steel from them that adds the carbon you need.
yes, oroshigane would work...but they are pretty high in manganese so the hamon would not be very detailed...
Crossed Heart Forge - islandblacksmith I see, maybe some way to tweak that property into the steel. Ive been wanting to experiment for some things myself. My goal is to be off-grid and be able to make my own tools and furniture simple living with a few modern comforts, So I am experimenting with the crucible steel stuff. I want to be able to take scrap and do my own ingots and do what ever. Love your work man
most modern steel has quite a bit of manganese that makes it deep hardening (this is not desirable for traditional hamon), so oroshigane is usually done with wrought iron as a low alloy sources...starting with anything high manganese translates to a lot of time and effort for steel characteristics much like a leaf spring you could find on a modern car...keep up the long journey towards excellence!
what is it ？
old style inukagi or tetsudo spike...many people use them for forging practice in north america... ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/犬釘
You need to make it more of tutorial more than a visual of what to do and you need to cut back on the editing
It is, this video like he said is for serious folks. Serious folks know how to look and take in from observation, This is a skill level video and one of the best I have ever seen
seeing you work the steel so cold was beyond cringey, it was honestly painful to watch most of this
glad to bring you a new perspective from a different metal working tradition, sorry it was a difficult experience ^__^