This really drives home that I made the right choice for myself in learning to play old time first, I love listening to bluegrass, but the relaxed and casual nature of old time feels like home.
@@TheFiddleChannel I found Bluegrass music first. Then I discovered the New Lost City boys and Norman and Nancy Blake. I tried to emulate Norman's guitar picking style when I found my own style, which was as good as I could get. Then I discovered the mandolin, with no interest in fiddle. I now have dozens of old time fiddle tunes I have played. I have tab sheets of some great old tunes I am grateful to have been exposed to
One of the biggest errors I saw in the video concerns the banjo. Clawhammer is only one among many banjo techniques used by old-time players, who, for example, often up pick with two fingers or three fingers (as in Charlie Poole and Dock Boggs as examples). Although Scruggs style grew out of old-time three-finger styles, it branches from them considerably.
I know what you mean; I feel the same way. I'm from the eastern part of Virginia, almost 100 miles from the nearest point in true Appalachia, but I still claim it as though it's my home. Overall most people don't know any better, so I go with it.
i dont mean to be so offtopic but does someone know of a trick to get back into an instagram account? I stupidly forgot the login password. I love any tips you can give me
@Karter Morgan Thanks for your reply. I got to the site on google and im in the hacking process now. Seems to take quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Brilliant documentary .. I’ve been playing Old Time banjo for 15 years and was amazed to hear that Bluegrass post-dates the atomic bomb. Great musical history lesson.. many thanks for posting.
This is great! Always a unwieldy topic, but you've managed to thoroughly cover everything from technique and playing style to broad cultural philosophy of old time and bluegrass, how they evolved apart, and how they still retain unmistakable links. I think you managed to cover most of the main points I would include, and in an interesting and historical manner. Well done!
Thanks for this, it really helped clear things up for me. Before this video I thought Dixieland was called old-time, old-time was called bluegrass, and bluegrass was called jazzgrass. This really cleared things up for me. Old-time is what I want to learn, so I'm moving forward with clawhammer banjo.
I thought bluegrass started when Earl got up with Bill Monroe after Stringbean quit in 1948. Before that Bills music was part of the early country scene with a Appalachian mountain old time flair mixed in with the blues sound he inherited from Mr. Arnold Shultz....I'm in the heart of Earl's home state, North Carolina which has loads of clawhammer and Scruggs pickers. Bluegrass, Oldtime and early country music is well respected and represented in this area and the groups for the most part get along well in the same fiddlers conventions all over different part of the country now. Some musicians play both types and maybe favor one over the other. Just have fun and enjoy the company of friends.
That’s how I feel about it. Everyone should enjoy different types whether bluegrass or old timey music. Idk why some of these people want to start a war over it…
just a slight correction, Stringbean left in 45 and that is when Earl joined along with Lester. So the birth of Bluegrass is generally agreed upon as then, 1945. The 1948 date marks when Earl and Lester left the band and soon after formed their own band playing similarly. They added the Dobro and de-emphasized the mandolin in order to distinguish their sound from Bill's.
I think it's funny the way the UK caption generator refers to Lester Flatt as Leicester Flatt. It's especially funny when you think of Jerry Douglas' band, the Earls of Leicester
This leaves out one if the crucial roots . Black String Bands were a major element , and Bill Monroe’s major influences were his Uncle,Pen , and African American guitarist Arnold Schultz
I can't say I've ever been in a strict bluegrass or old time jam. I'm played in a lot of get togethers but there weren't hard fast rules of what or how to play.
I like the Duluth Folk School's Old-Time Jam represented near the end. Terrence Smith is an inveterate Old-Timey caller and player. How did you get a picture of our scene?
Your comment makes wonder if I might be related to Tommy Jarrel (distantly). Nancy Jarrel, or Jerral married my ancestor David Herndon Kelley. That would help explain where alot of our musical abilities came from.
That was a wonderful documentary. I migrated to Old Tyme music playing clawhammer a couple of years before I tore my shoulder. You mentioned dancing briefly, but dancing was a pretty important link in Old Tyme music. My most favorite memory as a square dancer was dancing to a live caller backed up by a live bluegrass band.
It’s fun playing both styles. Old time helps with really knowing your instrument. Bluegrass allows chances to try different things and improvise, plus more singing in Bluegrass. Both complement each other in a player.
I really like the depth that this video puts into the difference between old time and bluegrass. I'd seen a video years ago called "Old Time Fildlin with Woody and Ketch" where they went into some of the history of Old Time. It was here that I started seeing a big distinction between Blue Grass and Old Time. One thing they mentioned is that Old Time was normally for gatherings and dances and the fiddler normally took the lead by starting the tune and setting the pace. When I'd watch Blue Grass bands I noticed that this was not the case and in fact a lot of the time the fiddle was in the background and playing rhythm except for when they stepped up for the solo. Even the band "The Darlings" on the Andy Griffith Show had no fiddler at all. In real life they were The Dillards and I could see a lot of the cross over mentioned here as they would play some old time songs, but they were always lacking a fiddle player while doing so.
This is a good overview, and useful for those who are new to the topic. Thank you. Of course, old-time music is a vast topic, and there are some nuances that a high-level summary is bound to gloss over or even misstate. I always want to push back against the story that old-time music represents old-world music brought to the Appalachian mountains by white immigrants and passed down in relatively pure form. That’s only partly true. Music that most knowledgeable people would label “old time” has long existed across much of the continent, played by people from many backgrounds, in a vast stew of cross-influences, such that even the tunes that did originate in Ireland, Scotland, etc., are barely recognizable as such anymore except in very isolated communities (think Cape Breton fiddling, for example). Port cities and other areas where different cultures easily mix (as opposed to remote Appalachian hollers) were particularly fertile places for old tunes to evolve and new tunes to emerge. It would be interesting to do a study of tune origins across a large sample of well-known old-time tunes. In my own repertoire, only a small fraction of tunes bear much resemblance to music of the British Isles or Western Europe. Far more of them are characterized by syncopation and blues influences that would seem to originate with enslaved people. The same is true of the songs I perform. A tiny few are of old-world origin, but most seem to have been composed over here. Carter Family songs don’t seem to have much in common with old-world music, for example. Your video does briefly nod to Black influences on the music, but I think that’s short shrift. In bringing the banjo to America, forming the first banjo/fiddle string bands, creating distinctively Black old-time tunes and songs, and teaching white people how to play, I think enslaved people and their descendants have just as much claim to old-time music as settlers from the old world and their descendants. Victor and the other record companies erased that fact in their ploy to market the music to white audiences, and the corrosive result has been an unfortunate exclusion of Black people from country music that persists to this day. Fortunately, artists like Rhiannon Giddens, Jerron Paxton, Hubby Jenkins, Jake Blount and several others are chipping away at the old myths. One last minor quibble: Although the record companies (again, in their cynical ploy) did popularize the term “old-time” music, I believe the term predates that. For example, years ago I saw an old photograph reprinted in the Old-Time Herald of a poster advertising a dance with “old-time” music. As I recall, it was dated 1910. Thanks for all you do. I really enjoy your channel and continue to learn a lot from it.
Hi Tom. Glad you found this interesting. In case you haven't seen it, I deal with the African American influence in my video "where are all the black fiddle players?" ua-cam.com/video/rCOKPNalMMo/v-deo.html
As a fiddler- guitarist etc. I have never been comfortable in a Bluegrass crowd, it all seems so egoistic. I started with Irish session, and progressed into different instruments. I'm now exploring old time, Quebecquois, and Cape Breton, as well as Scottish, New England- since I live here in Northern NH. Not really keen on bluegrass. Kinda gets boring after a while...same sound, different players. JMO.
This is great! I didn't know that Bluegrass was so young, i just assumed it was hundreds of years old. One should never assume! Thanks for your work fiddle man, if you make more of these vids i'll certainly watch them!
Naming the music 'bluegrass' was just something that occurred at a particular point in a historical continuum. As this video indicates, it actually has a long hustory.
Your musicology here is simply outstanding. Myself only two generations removed from those illiterate, ignorant Tennessee hillbillies, even my moronic intelligence laughed out loud at your distinction between the themes of Bluegrass and Old Time, and I can finally articulate the differences I have observed but could not previously describe - the democratic, groove-centered essence of Old Time (a bit "dirtier" as harmonica players might describe) versus the virtuosic, clean-polished, driving hard edge of Bluegrass. While I'm a hard-core fan of "God's Golden Shore" and "The Little Cabin Home on the Hill", my own interest in *learning* music gravitates more toward the "disasters, wars, trainwrecks, low living, hogs, and 'possums" genre. I will be laughing about this description until I am carried to my own grave, perhaps to be lamented in a New-Old-Time ballad. Maybe the difference is illustrated by the release date of Vernon Dalhart's version of "The Wreck of the Old 97" in 1924, almost a full generation before the premier of Bill Monroe's canonical "Bluegrass Boys" lineup in 1945. Thanks so much for your work and what you provide here.
I find the original recordings of old time music are much less accessible at a listening value than bluegrass, which is wholly much newer and well polished. A lot of my favorite musicians are hard to listen to. While people like Roscoe Holcomb, Dave Macon, Bertie Mae Dickens, and Tommy Jarrell all play with immense heart, the recordings tend not to represent the music well. As a musician I find playing it to be a rewarding and authentic experience, as well as easy to listen to. There's a new age of musicians who derive their inspiration from old time and it sounds great. It's not bluegrass, it's different and at the same time just as rooted in traditions. I'm proud to be a part of it.
Yes, you could argue that bluegrass had an unfair advantage in that the first recordings weren't until the 1940's, when recording technology was much better than when old time recording started.
I fell in love with old time fiddle about 10 years ago (primarily through Bruce Molsky, Tommy Jarrell, Rayna Gellert etc) and have been trying to learn it ever since and love trawling through collections of field recordings (slippery-hill, Library of Congress etc) to find obscure old tunes to learn. When people ask me what I play and I say 'American Old time fiddle' they pretty much 99.9% of the time say 'oh you mean Bluegrass?' 😡If anyones interested in old time fiddle I would suggest checking out a young chap called Ben Kiser here on youtube who seems to be on a mission to learn every obscure old time fiddle recording there is and does it extremely well. Also Bruce Greene (good luck finding his CDs) and Jimmy Triplett (his 'Lee Hammons Repertoire' album on bandcamp is just fantastic) are two fiddle players who still play very much in the 'old fashioned' way and are well worth checking out. Definitely 100% NOT bluegrass.
Great video and good distinctions. I would like to add though that the tradition of a some what microtonal singing or playing style can be heard in the old British psalm singing and some balled singing. Also certain syncopations have there place in some European traditions. But I’m probably preaching to the choir. Thank you for the video.
Took me a couple of hard years to learn the difference between old time and bluegrass. Now the “old time”fiddlers who play prairie dance tunes … insist THEY are “old time” and my music is “old timie” as opposed to old time…. I’m just gonna call it mountain music….
Thanks for the video ... All my dad's family and ancestors were from Appalachia (Lincoln county, TN since 1802, came from Virginia) and my mom's dad was from West Virginia.. I noticed hearing from my elders and tracing my family tree, they were playing fiddle and Appalachia music long before Bill Monroe... My one how ever old great grandfather on my daddy's side, came from Ulster (my dad told me we were scots irish), he brought with him a fiddle is what I was told ... I would of loved to hear and see how Appliacia style of music evolved over the centuries to what it came about today
I always feel slightly embarrassed about the fact that all my knowledge of country music is "second hand". It's great to hear from someone from within that culture who shares my enthusiasm and takes me seriously!
Have you ever watched the Applachia documentary? There might be a few made, but one has a very good male narrator, and it's a 2 part documentary with actual mountain recordings. Maybe you will feel at home.
this is so interesting... so basically Bluegrass is more like a cousin of Rockabilly, both being descendents of old time and other stuff. I think understanding the commercial element really clarifies the picture for me.
I think the sit up and take notice event was definitely Earl Scruggs new style of playing. When he left Monroe's band Bill Monroe immediately hired someone who learned Scruggs style of playing . So it's clear EARL SCRUGGS IS THE REAL FATHER OF BLUEGRASS.
Though the video touched strongly on this, the way I discern the difference in a jam. Old-Time jams sound very "jangly" (for lack of a better term) with very little leads, and everyone playing through and over the singer(s). Bluegrass jams will tend for the rhythm to back down to let the lead or singer come through. Well, that's what I think. Personally, if I'm looking to party, I'll find an Old-Time Jam, as opposed to Bluegrass jams, where I find more concentrated effort to meld into the music with only an occasional pull on Jim Beam.
Great video. Excellent observations. I like your channel. The "power" of Music intrigues me, and I am excited about the PROGRESS of AMERICAN Music, Music that is kept away from TV and Radio. A book I read about Bluegrass, agrees with your statement, that Bill Monroe introduced the "fast rhythm" to Music. Monroe also turned the Mandolin, from an accompaniment, to a lead instrument. Later, Doc Watson and Clarence White, turned the flat top into a lead instrument. How cool is that? According to the book, although Monroe's 1940's Music is clearly what we call "Bluegrass" today, the term "Bluegrass" did not become popular, until the early 1960's. Back in the early 1900's, fiddle was a very popular instrument (no Jukeboxes or records), with the Skillet Lickers having their own prime time radio show in Atlanta, and with the most famous fiddle contest, the Georgia Old Time Fiddle Contest (1919 to 1935), receiving HEADLINE coverage in newspapers. Soooo......what happened to fiddle music????? Why do I have to peruse UA-cam, to find great fiddle music????? My opinion, is that the biggest musical tragedy in history, is "giving violins to fifth graders", with virtually ZERO instruction. I was one, but I have recovered. Another challenge to fiddling, has been "electricity". In the early 1900's, if you wanted Music, you had to hire a Musician. Not any more. Fiddle is GONNA MAKE A REBOUND!!! Channels like this are helping. My personal goal, is to apply "Bluegrass Cleanliness" to "Old Time" fiddle tunes. I've heard it, and it sounds AWESOME. I am currently "short" of my objective. Great channel. Rock Reynolds (AKA: Roger Reynard)
I feel like there is a lot more to be said about American music that is meant to be danced to, versus music that is meant to express or impress. So many genre names have been created by the record-selling industry that I feel we sometimes can’t see the Forest for the trees, so to speak. For instance, early recorded music and rural vs. urban differences. Rural white recordings were called “hillbilly” and then “oldtime” while rural black recordings were called “race records” and then “blues.” But the music of both rural white and rural black musicians showed way more overlap and had much more in common than either did with the black or white urban-musician recordings of the time.
Not bad at all. I might disagree on a couple of minor points but the overview was clearly well informed. I believe the biggest problem with the term, "Bluegrass" is an over generalization to include in addition to Old Time / String Band, basically anything played with acoustic instruments or electric bands that might include a banjo, mandolin, dobro or fiddle. Bluegrass is a specific sound, with specific instrumentation, arrangement and vocalization. Variations and exceptions obviously occur but once those differences become more dominant it stops being Bluegrass. Bluegrass is a specific not a general term.
@@TheFiddleChannel really very minor things, African's didn't bring over any of the instruments in the middle passage, they took materials in the new world and made instruments from memory of what had been played in Africa which eventually evolved into the banjo. Dobro was introduced into the genre with Flatt and Scruggs in order to distinguish them from Monroe, but I know you can't mention everything in a 15 minute overview. I don't think there is as much commercial Country Music influence on Bluegrass as you implied. They really seem to have made a complete break decades ago. Alison Krauss hasn't had a song played on Top 40 country radio in years here in the US. I think the commercial outlet for both Old Time and Bluegrass is within the commercial engine of "Americana" these days.
Not understanding what you were trying to say. I felt he made clear that Bluegrass is for listening.... Old Time Music is rhythmic for dancing. In Bluegrass, instruments take 'breaks' (solos). In Old Time, everyone has a blast playing in unison. In Bluegrass, it's kinda like competing to show off. In Old Time, it's a joyful synergy that flows from the group as all play together!
@@carolmccollum9341 Clogging both free style and in formal groups are an important part of Bluegrass so I wouldn't say Bluegrass is exclusively a listening music. And String Band music as it is performed today seems to be very much a listening activity as well as dancing.
I don't care for labels, and I like to go to jams that don't really care one way or the other. Jams where it's just music, everybody plays, and we have a great time. To me that's growth and community. Liberal, conservative, old time, bluegrass, newgrass, greengrass, snow on the lawn, who cares? Sing a song, play a lick, improvise, sing harmony, whatever you do just play.
Another distinction between old-time and bluegrass is that, historically, old-time musicians have been far less doctrinaire about instrumentation, welcoming everything from accordions and pump organs to drums, cellos, pianos, zithers and more. Whatever was available. Why not a bandura?
Much the same progression took place in jazz: the dance-oriented Hot Jazz (or Jass) of the Twenties and Swing of the Thirties, giving way to the more performance-oriented Be-Bop. Same year, even - 1945.
I believe Kenny Baker was more influential to Bill Monroe's success than Chubby Wise. It baffles me that you would show him on stage but not mention him once.
Well done. I love Old Time. I like listening to a few BG tunes/songs but quickly tire of them. Playing OT in a jam I get lost like in a mantra. The melody is everything. I find BG to be like jazz where I struggle to find the melody and here a constant run of scales. Just one mandolin hackers opinion 🙂
Hi Mike, I read your comments with interest. Bluegrass like jazz has a language all of its own, and you converse within that language. It's coming up with variations in correct style when it's your tune to solo that's the key. (no pun intended). Have a listen closely (slowed down) to Bill Monroe's way of tackling a fiddle tune, then to (for example) Jimmy Gaudreau. Totally different approaches, but all part of the style. Have a listen to Bobby Osborne, Sam Bush, Herschel Sizemore, John Duffey , Mike Compton, Adam Steffey and more - I think you'll find plenty of interest there, these are the masters. As you listen, bear in mind that Bluegrass has evolved over the years, even Bill Monroe's mandolin style evolved as time went by. At British jam sessions, I've heard people turn up who think that they know what bluegrass is about. Irrespective of their chosen instrument, they hammer away relentlessly, don't play in correct style, don't know how to accompany a singer or soloist (play backup, as the Americans say), don't listen to other players at the session. and in general give listeners a bad impression of bluegrass because they haven't studied or made any attempt to learn how the music should be played.
@@gam1471 Thanks for your comments GAM. I'm not "dissing" BG and I think you know that. No doubt BG requires much greater musicianship than OT, or at least the way 95% the musicians play both styles. For me it's getting lost in the melody. Lost in the simplicity. BG is far from "simple". Like jazz I find it to be the music for master musicians and a format to express that mastery. OTOH OT "Americanized" the more complex fiddle tunes from the Scotland, England, and Ireland and in the NE/Canada add the French. The melodies became much more simple/basic. I think of OT as music made by the "non-musicians". Of course there are great skilled musicians playing OT with lots of notes and nuance. BTW I had the opportunity to attend a very small venue in Crockett, Texas in deep East Texas where Robin and Linda Williams played and backed up by Jimmy Gaudreau. I doubt there were more than 75 people in the audience and we sat within spitting distance from them. I watch/listened to Jimmy very carefully. I bought a CD from him after the performance. I told him how I appreciated his playing and I was impressed by how much he didn't play. Every note was important but no notes played that didn't need to be. His absence of notes was brilliant.! He was a great backup to Robin and Linda but didn't distract from their performance, just enhanced it. Robin and Linda were regulars on Garrison Keillor's radio show. I was born in New Orleans and had the opportunity to literally sit at spitting distance in Preservation Hall in the French Quarter from some of the great Dixieland band players long since passed away. My Mom loved the music and we went there often. I thought Gaudreau was from South Louisiana but he's from Washington D.C. He said when the British threw the French out of Canada a number of the French went to the D.C area as well as South Louisiana.
@@mikemcmanus116 Thanks for your most enjoyable reply, Mike. When I was young (1950s), I listened to fiddle dance music a lot on the radio. I wanted a fiddle, but it didn't happen. I didn't enjoy school music lessons, they were totally classical based. I took up the guitar and mandolin during the 1960s folk boom - but I wish there'd been a fiddler who could have got me started when I was young! I know exactly where you're coming from regarding old-time - the combination of the fiddle and a good clawhammer banjoist is pure magic.
@@TheFiddleChannel Much appreciated. Thank you for the effort and value you put into your videos. It's great to learn songs, theory and some history at all time.
Another major distinction between "modern" Old Time and "modern" Bluegrass are the Jam sessions. Old Time tends to be "inclusive", Bluegrass tends to be exclusive.
I challenge everyone to listen to Clawhammer Banjo and remain a bluegrass (Scruggs Style) fan. Listen to Clifton Hicks, Lucas Pool, Riley Bagly, Meredith Moon, Billy String playing Reuben's Train.
Lol... I challenge anyone to listen to Noam Pikelny, Takumi Kodera, Tony Trischka, Alan Munde, or the like and still think clawhammer is better. It's not as musically diverse, as technical, as delicate, or as well suited to showcasing the banjo's melodic tuning capabilities.
@@baileystutzman6096 You gotta be kidding! I've been playing for 50 years. By your list, it's obvious you haven't listened and you certainly don't play. Technical? clawhammer plays both the lead and melody. Diverse? Scruggs style is predominately a USA invention. Clawhammer is world wide. Delicate?hahaha delicate as a sledgehammer! Listen to Lucas Pool, you can't do that with picks. Tuning capabilities? Oh Please- that was just ignorant. Same tunings are used!-- Scruggs was all flash, just to get on the Opry. Read the history!
@@baileystutzman6096 hmmm. different styles for different objectives... Bluegrass has me sittin' in my seat. Old time gives me 'dancy feet'. The goal/focus of each style is different. I can like both. We don't have to chose one as 'better' & exclude the other!! Ok... ie: spaghetti versus tacos.... or.... vanilla versus chocolate.... color blue or color purple.... car versus truck... Florida or California.... soooo many choices. We all have things in life that resonate with us, either like a magnet, or a repellant.... Isn't diversity great??!! I love tofu. It's ok if you don't!! Life is short. Music is MAGIC. Whatever genre speaks to you/fires you up/lifts you up/energizes you/makes you happy.... GO FOR IT. Enjoy what love... and SHARE THAT!!
The passionate intensity of singing in bluegrass is a key difference. I've always loved those harmonies on top of a powerful lead voice, particularly on the slow numbers and gospel material. Listen to Bill Monroe, the Stanley Brothers, The Osborne Brothers, The Country Gentlemen, The Seldom Scene, Jimmy Martin, Red Allen - without the singing, bluegrass isn't bluegrass.
@@TheFiddleChannel I'd say yes - however, I'm English, so I now refer to a higher authority! The following quote is from page 56 of 'Can't You Hear Me Calling' - the life of Bill Monroe, Father of Bluegrass by Richard D. Smith (2000, Da Capo Press) who says: 'Monroe's music also got a boost from the higher keys in which he pitched many vocals. His decision to sing, for example, in keys like Bb and B - instead of the C or A favoured by most country vocalists of the day - had originally been an expedient to better suit his range. It had the unexpected benefit of putting the keening - and compelling - high element into Monroe's high, lonesome sound.'
Trying to define old time is difficult... akin to trying to catch a greased pig... when you are done you are covered with mud and pig shit and you still haven't caught the damn pig... you really should credit John Hartford with pioneering new grass... that is who Sam Bush got it from... and Sam readily admits it... and a lot more credit needs to be given to the African influence in old time...old time: West Africa meets the Celtic world in Appalachia and magic happens... Mike Seeger once said... and I paraphrase here.... bluegrass is where you use the tune to show off your talent, old time is where you use your talent to show off the tunr
So the difference isn't in how you play the G chord? Lol... in the other leading search result video, the guy says that's the difference. Bluegrass mutes the 3rd of the g chord & old time plays it normal. It understood what he was saying but imho the title should've been a little different
Well in my opinion the bluegrass of today doesn't sound like bluegrass. It's so fancied up it doesn't sound like the bluegrass of the originals like Bill Monroe. I'm like some of the old timers when it comes to that. The style of bluegrass today has lost the beauty and often you can't even tell what tune they are playing. No old timey is the traditional music that was played way before Bill Monroe. It is the purest. I knew bluegrass was not a new thing. Any musician should know it began with Bill. As far as bluegrass itself the younger musicians now play something that I'd call newgrass not bluegrass. I don't care for it.
We are lucky enough to live in the time of the greatest fiddle player ever in Michael Cleveland. Maybe one of the greatest flat pickers of all time in Billy Strings. I'd also like to take issue with your definition of Hillbilly. I come from a long line of Hillbillies and we don't consider ourselves the morons! Then or now. A higher education is no guarantee or proof of higher intelligence. 3:08 It also bears mentioning Chet Atkins stifled fiddle playing in Nashville until Mark O'Conner came along.
The general public are generally not aware of it . But there is a broad, not quite mainstream trend of rootsy, and eclectic faux rootsy stuff called Americana
ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I'm 76. Started playing violin at 7. I'm 76. Good grief... almost 70 yrs.. !! Started with scales, etudes, classical music, concertos. I was so enthralled with how I could express emotion thru my violin. Played in orchestra all thru school yrs. Got married 1964. Put my violin in the closet for a few yrs. 1988, 'discovered' fiddling music & my fiddle became my friend again. Especially drawn to Irish fiddling & old time tunes. Ended up learning lots of Irish tunes & playing for Ceili dancers & at sessions. Also played old timey at Contra Dances. 1988, Also joined OTFC Dist 7, basically old time contest fiddle music group. There sooo many different genres of music. The focus of OTFC (Old Time Fiddle Club) group is to help fiddlers learn contest tunes & to give them a format in which to practice those tunes at mtgs, so they'll have more confidence at contests. This type of old time fiddling is focused on contests tunes & prep for those. Fiddler typically has backup of guitar & base... maybe another instrument... but for this, the fiddler is in the spotlight. AND.... there are different types of contests with different criteria. There's just plain 'Old Timey'... and then there's the Texas Swing fiddle contests. Well, folks...whatever music 'floats your boat'.... ENJOY... and please be sure to share the magic of music. We need it.
Your conclusions are false and possibly the result of research draw almost exclusively from urban academia with virtually no firsthand or practical experience or perhaps exclusively from the modern internet references. My ancestors were playing "Bluegrass" before the close of the 19th century and perhaps before that with many tunes clearly evolved from ancient melodies with origins in ancient Britain and more likely Scotland and Ireland. Any Bluegrass musician who spends any time in the British Isles will very quickly recognize most Irish folk tunes or Scottish melodies as very familiar and in short order will be able to accompany flawlessly with any stringed band. I propose that many early immigrants from the British Isles brought with them their folk tunes and while the words were lost the melody survived with new lyrics written to form Bluegrass or Old time songs. As for the banjos origins I would ask; "Exactly which African stringed instrument provides the basis for the banjo?" It seems to me there are very few stringed instruments with African origins and those few that do exist most likely have Arabic origins. Meanwhile Medieval and ancient Europe is replete with stringed instruments of every type and variation and their evolution can be easily traced. I highly recommend you spend some time in the field and with the people that actually sing and play bluegrass music.
@moominpic That's 1 fine example compared with hundreds of examples throughout Erupoe. Clearly early Irish/Sotch immigrants attempted to recreate such instruments as the Irish Bozouki or other of the same. Most slaves came from the West coast of Africa. Show me an example of a string instrument native to these cultures and you will have my interest. Stop forfeiting my culture and ancestry.
The "ancestor of the banjo" was a stick in a gourd with 1 string. It's a bit of a reach to say it's an ancestor of the banjo rather than the spark of an idea for the banjo.
This really drives home that I made the right choice for myself in learning to play old time first, I love listening to bluegrass, but the relaxed and casual nature of old time feels like home.
To the outsider they both sound the same, but when you get to the heart of it they're so different, and in so many ways!
@@TheFiddleChannel I found Bluegrass music first. Then I discovered the New Lost City boys and Norman and Nancy Blake. I tried to emulate Norman's guitar picking style when I found my own style, which was as good as I could get. Then I discovered the mandolin, with no interest in fiddle. I now have dozens of old time fiddle tunes I have played. I have tab sheets of some great old tunes I am grateful to have been exposed to
Isn't it interesting that old time music and some places feel like coming home to places we've never been with tunes we've never heard.
Guy with funny accent has many questionable facts about our our country and our people.
One of the biggest errors I saw in the video concerns the banjo. Clawhammer is only one among many banjo techniques used by old-time players, who, for example, often up pick with two fingers or three fingers (as in Charlie Poole and Dock Boggs as examples). Although Scruggs style grew out of old-time three-finger styles, it branches from them considerably.
It's really warms my heart to hear people outside of Appalachia appreciate bluegrass
I am french and I fell in love with it , I've been plaing and performing here in france for a few years :)
I know what you mean; I feel the same way. I'm from the eastern part of Virginia, almost 100 miles from the nearest point in true Appalachia, but I still claim it as though it's my home. Overall most people don't know any better, so I go with it.
You can find bluegrass most anywhere in the world. even in places/countries so flat that you can see a hare run for a fortnight.
Bluegrass is the less regional and more widely accepted genre, but its derived from Old Time music which finds many of its roots in Appalachia.
We have a Bluegrass Festival yearly in Mid Michigan.😊
I really miss the old style Bluegrass when the musicians still had the underlying dance rhythms in their playing.
That's right..
You know it Danny. Love your playing!
i dont mean to be so offtopic but does someone know of a trick to get back into an instagram account?
I stupidly forgot the login password. I love any tips you can give me
@Karter Morgan Thanks for your reply. I got to the site on google and im in the hacking process now.
Seems to take quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
I discovered your music from your comment. I like it. It's just a personal thing but I don't watch videos that disable comments.
Adore your channel, now I gonna cry. Old times are literally the part of my soul
Great work, one of the very best documentaries that I have ever seen! Please do another pal.👍
Many thanks Gregory. Plenty more in the pipeline!
Brilliant documentary .. I’ve been playing Old Time banjo for 15 years and was amazed to hear that Bluegrass post-dates the atomic bomb. Great musical history lesson.. many thanks for posting.
Thanks David!
Super documentary! I’ve been listing to old time and bluegrass going back to mid 60’s. It’s America’s great contribution.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed this!
My buddy who plays old time sent me here for an explanation. Very well done!
Thanks Rick!
This is great! Always a unwieldy topic, but you've managed to thoroughly cover everything from technique and playing style to broad cultural philosophy of old time and bluegrass, how they evolved apart, and how they still retain unmistakable links. I think you managed to cover most of the main points I would include, and in an interesting and historical manner. Well done!
Many thanks Scrachman!
Thanks for this, it really helped clear things up for me. Before this video I thought Dixieland was called old-time, old-time was called bluegrass, and bluegrass was called jazzgrass. This really cleared things up for me. Old-time is what I want to learn, so I'm moving forward with clawhammer banjo.
Glad you found this useful!
I thought bluegrass started when Earl got up with Bill Monroe after Stringbean quit in 1948. Before that Bills music was part of the early country scene with a Appalachian mountain old time flair mixed in with the blues sound he inherited from Mr. Arnold Shultz....I'm in the heart of Earl's home state, North Carolina which has loads of clawhammer and Scruggs pickers. Bluegrass, Oldtime and early country music is well respected and represented in this area and the groups for the most part get along well in the same fiddlers conventions all over different part of the country now. Some musicians play both types and maybe favor one over the other. Just have fun and enjoy the company of friends.
That’s how I feel about it. Everyone should enjoy different types whether bluegrass or old timey music. Idk why some of these people want to start a war over it…
just a slight correction, Stringbean left in 45 and that is when Earl joined along with Lester. So the birth of Bluegrass is generally agreed upon as then, 1945. The 1948 date marks when Earl and Lester left the band and soon after formed their own band playing similarly. They added the Dobro and de-emphasized the mandolin in order to distinguish their sound from Bill's.
Thank you for the video. It's very helpful in understanding both styles!
I think it's funny the way the UK caption generator refers to Lester Flatt as Leicester Flatt. It's especially funny when you think of Jerry Douglas' band, the Earls of Leicester
That is good
wow, this a wonderful lesson, thanks Cris!
Canadian bluegrass guitar player here. This video is excellent. Thanks.
Thanks David!
This leaves out one if the crucial roots . Black String Bands were a major element , and Bill Monroe’s major influences were his Uncle,Pen , and African American guitarist Arnold Schultz
He did mention the Black influence.
Mentioning is not tge same as grasping the significance
great video! Who's playing the version of solidarity forever under the fiddlin john carson section?
Glad you enjoyed this! All the music on here is my own playing, mostly from the audio of my book "Exploring Country and bluegrass fiddle"
I can't say I've ever been in a strict bluegrass or old time jam. I'm played in a lot of get togethers but there weren't hard fast rules of what or how to play.
A pretty neat and thorough analysis, quite clarifying and eye-opening! Thanks and greetings!
Thanks Manuel. I find it a fascinating subject!
I like the Duluth Folk School's Old-Time Jam represented near the end. Terrence Smith is an inveterate Old-Timey caller and player. How did you get a picture of our scene?
Hi Jeff. I get all the pictures simply by trawling Google Images. Hope you don't mind!
No problem. If you're ever over this way, join us.
Tiny Moore played 5-string electric violin,w/Bob Wills band;& even made a record w/Jethro Burns’ jazz violin. Great combo.
Loved this video, very well done, and especially loved seeing a bunch of my buddies (and the top of my head) at the Jig and Reel.
Thanks Dianne!
Love the mention of Tommy Jarrell ...one of my favourite old-timey musicians.
Your comment makes wonder if I might be related to Tommy Jarrel (distantly). Nancy Jarrel, or Jerral married my ancestor David Herndon Kelley.
That would help explain where alot of our musical abilities came from.
An excellent, informative summary. Nicely produced with some good footage. Well done Chris. ;-)
Thanks John!
That was a wonderful documentary. I migrated to Old Tyme music playing clawhammer a couple of years before I tore my shoulder. You mentioned dancing briefly, but dancing was a pretty important link in Old Tyme music. My most favorite memory as a square dancer was dancing to a live caller backed up by a live bluegrass band.
It’s fun playing both styles. Old time helps with really knowing your instrument. Bluegrass allows chances to try different things and improvise, plus more singing in Bluegrass. Both complement each other in a player.
Good answer!
I really like the depth that this video puts into the difference between old time and bluegrass. I'd seen a video years ago called "Old Time Fildlin with Woody and Ketch" where they went into some of the history of Old Time. It was here that I started seeing a big distinction between Blue Grass and Old Time. One thing they mentioned is that Old Time was normally for gatherings and dances and the fiddler normally took the lead by starting the tune and setting the pace. When I'd watch Blue Grass bands I noticed that this was not the case and in fact a lot of the time the fiddle was in the background and playing rhythm except for when they stepped up for the solo. Even the band "The Darlings" on the Andy Griffith Show had no fiddler at all. In real life they were The Dillards and I could see a lot of the cross over mentioned here as they would play some old time songs, but they were always lacking a fiddle player while doing so.
Glad you enjoyed this. It's a fascinating topic!
Great description. WHile I really like bluegrass, Old Time is much more my thing, and much more like music sessions in the UK and Ireland.
This is a good overview, and useful for those who are new to the topic. Thank you. Of course, old-time music is a vast topic, and there are some nuances that a high-level summary is bound to gloss over or even misstate. I always want to push back against the story that old-time music represents old-world music brought to the Appalachian mountains by white immigrants and passed down in relatively pure form. That’s only partly true.
Music that most knowledgeable people would label “old time” has long existed across much of the continent, played by people from many backgrounds, in a vast stew of cross-influences, such that even the tunes that did originate in Ireland, Scotland, etc., are barely recognizable as such anymore except in very isolated communities (think Cape Breton fiddling, for example). Port cities and other areas where different cultures easily mix (as opposed to remote Appalachian hollers) were particularly fertile places for old tunes to evolve and new tunes to emerge.
It would be interesting to do a study of tune origins across a large sample of well-known old-time tunes. In my own repertoire, only a small fraction of tunes bear much resemblance to music of the British Isles or Western Europe. Far more of them are characterized by syncopation and blues influences that would seem to originate with enslaved people. The same is true of the songs I perform. A tiny few are of old-world origin, but most seem to have been composed over here. Carter Family songs don’t seem to have much in common with old-world music, for example.
Your video does briefly nod to Black influences on the music, but I think that’s short shrift. In bringing the banjo to America, forming the first banjo/fiddle string bands, creating distinctively Black old-time tunes and songs, and teaching white people how to play, I think enslaved people and their descendants have just as much claim to old-time music as settlers from the old world and their descendants. Victor and the other record companies erased that fact in their ploy to market the music to white audiences, and the corrosive result has been an unfortunate exclusion of Black people from country music that persists to this day. Fortunately, artists like Rhiannon Giddens, Jerron Paxton, Hubby Jenkins, Jake Blount and several others are chipping away at the old myths.
One last minor quibble: Although the record companies (again, in their cynical ploy) did popularize the term “old-time” music, I believe the term predates that. For example, years ago I saw an old photograph reprinted in the Old-Time Herald of a poster advertising a dance with “old-time” music. As I recall, it was dated 1910.
Thanks for all you do. I really enjoy your channel and continue to learn a lot from it.
Hi Tom. Glad you found this interesting. In case you haven't seen it, I deal with the African American influence in my video "where are all the black fiddle players?" ua-cam.com/video/rCOKPNalMMo/v-deo.html
Really interesting Chris. Makes me want to investigate old time styles more, I'm currently off down a clawhammer youtube rabbit hole!.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks, Chris! This video is very informative.
great synopsis, thank you
As a fiddler- guitarist etc. I have never been comfortable in a Bluegrass crowd, it all seems so egoistic. I started with Irish session, and progressed into different instruments. I'm now exploring old time, Quebecquois, and Cape Breton, as well as Scottish, New England- since I live here in Northern NH.
Not really keen on bluegrass. Kinda gets boring after a while...same sound, different players. JMO.
Banjo picking , singing , everybody plays solos and this fast . Most time singing is brillant and clear . And and . .
This is great! I didn't know that Bluegrass was so young, i just assumed it was hundreds of years old. One should never assume! Thanks for your work fiddle man, if you make more of these vids i'll certainly watch them!
Thanks Guitarman- there's plenty more on the way!
Naming the music 'bluegrass' was just something that occurred at a particular point in a historical continuum. As this video indicates, it actually has a long hustory.
BG is almost the same age as be-bop! Actually, about a decade younger than rock'n'roll.
One of the ID marks between "Old Time" and "Bluegrass" is that the fiddle usually leads in "Old Time", while "Bluegrass" is led with the banjo.
Your musicology here is simply outstanding. Myself only two generations removed from those illiterate, ignorant Tennessee hillbillies, even my moronic intelligence laughed out loud at your distinction between the themes of Bluegrass and Old Time, and I can finally articulate the differences I have observed but could not previously describe - the democratic, groove-centered essence of Old Time (a bit "dirtier" as harmonica players might describe) versus the virtuosic, clean-polished, driving hard edge of Bluegrass. While I'm a hard-core fan of "God's Golden Shore" and "The Little Cabin Home on the Hill", my own interest in *learning* music gravitates more toward the "disasters, wars, trainwrecks, low living, hogs, and 'possums" genre. I will be laughing about this description until I am carried to my own grave, perhaps to be lamented in a New-Old-Time ballad.
Maybe the difference is illustrated by the release date of Vernon Dalhart's version of "The Wreck of the Old 97" in 1924, almost a full generation before the premier of Bill Monroe's canonical "Bluegrass Boys" lineup in 1945.
Thanks so much for your work and what you provide here.
Many thanks Sam! Sometimes it's maybe easier to see things from a distance (ie across the Atlantic) than it is close up!
What an awesome music history lesson!
Thanks Jane!
I find the original recordings of old time music are much less accessible at a listening value than bluegrass, which is wholly much newer and well polished. A lot of my favorite musicians are hard to listen to. While people like Roscoe Holcomb, Dave Macon, Bertie Mae Dickens, and Tommy Jarrell all play with immense heart, the recordings tend not to represent the music well. As a musician I find playing it to be a rewarding and authentic experience, as well as easy to listen to. There's a new age of musicians who derive their inspiration from old time and it sounds great. It's not bluegrass, it's different and at the same time just as rooted in traditions. I'm proud to be a part of it.
Yes, you could argue that bluegrass had an unfair advantage in that the first recordings weren't until the 1940's, when recording technology was much better than when old time recording started.
I fell in love with old time fiddle about 10 years ago (primarily through Bruce Molsky, Tommy Jarrell, Rayna Gellert etc) and have been trying to learn it ever since and love trawling through collections of field recordings (slippery-hill, Library of Congress etc) to find obscure old tunes to learn. When people ask me what I play and I say 'American Old time fiddle' they pretty much 99.9% of the time say 'oh you mean Bluegrass?' 😡If anyones interested in old time fiddle I would suggest checking out a young chap called Ben Kiser here on youtube who seems to be on a mission to learn every obscure old time fiddle recording there is and does it extremely well. Also Bruce Greene (good luck finding his CDs) and Jimmy Triplett (his 'Lee Hammons Repertoire' album on bandcamp is just fantastic) are two fiddle players who still play very much in the 'old fashioned' way and are well worth checking out. Definitely 100% NOT bluegrass.
Great video and good distinctions. I would like to add though that the tradition of a some what microtonal singing or playing style can be heard in the old British psalm singing and some balled singing.
Also certain syncopations have there place in some European traditions. But I’m probably preaching to the choir.
Thank you for the video.
Thanks Joshua!
Thank you,
Your great player as well.
Merry Christmas
Josh
Nice documentary. Very interesting. However, the queen of bluegrass is Rhonda Vincent not Alison krauss.
Took me a couple of hard years to learn the difference between old time and bluegrass. Now the “old time”fiddlers who play prairie dance tunes … insist THEY are “old time” and my music is “old timie” as opposed to old time…. I’m just gonna call it mountain music….
🤣
Give me old time any day
Very informative. Thank you
Thanks for the video ... All my dad's family and ancestors were from Appalachia (Lincoln county, TN since 1802, came from Virginia) and my mom's dad was from West Virginia..
I noticed hearing from my elders and tracing my family tree, they were playing fiddle and Appalachia music long before Bill Monroe... My one how ever old great grandfather on my daddy's side, came from Ulster (my dad told me we were scots irish), he brought with him a fiddle is what I was told ... I would of loved to hear and see how Appliacia style of music evolved over the centuries to what it came about today
I always feel slightly embarrassed about the fact that all my knowledge of country music is "second hand". It's great to hear from someone from within that culture who shares my enthusiasm and takes me seriously!
Have you ever watched the Applachia documentary? There might be a few made, but one has a very good male narrator, and it's a 2 part documentary with actual mountain recordings.
Maybe you will feel at home.
this is so interesting... so basically Bluegrass is more like a cousin of Rockabilly, both being descendents of old time and other stuff. I think understanding the commercial element really clarifies the picture for me.
Hi William, glad it makes sense!
I think the sit up and take notice event was definitely Earl Scruggs new style of playing. When he left Monroe's band Bill Monroe immediately hired someone who learned Scruggs style of playing . So it's clear EARL SCRUGGS IS THE REAL FATHER OF BLUEGRASS.
Could ya make a video defining jug band music, cajun music, and Appalachian music. And how they differ from bluegrass and old timey music.
Fascinating idea!
Though the video touched strongly on this, the way I discern the difference in a jam. Old-Time jams sound very "jangly" (for lack of a better term) with very little leads, and everyone playing through and over the singer(s). Bluegrass jams will tend for the rhythm to back down to let the lead or singer come through. Well, that's what I think. Personally, if I'm looking to party, I'll find an Old-Time Jam, as opposed to Bluegrass jams, where I find more concentrated effort to meld into the music with only an occasional pull on Jim Beam.
Thanks Chris. From an old Zumzeaux fan.
You're welcome. Always good to hear from someone who remembers Zumzeaux!
Great video. Excellent observations. I like your channel.
The "power" of Music intrigues me, and I am excited about the PROGRESS of AMERICAN Music, Music that is kept away from TV and Radio.
A book I read about Bluegrass, agrees with your statement, that Bill Monroe introduced the "fast rhythm" to Music. Monroe also turned the Mandolin, from an accompaniment, to a lead instrument.
Later, Doc Watson and Clarence White, turned the flat top into a lead instrument. How cool is that?
According to the book, although Monroe's 1940's Music is clearly what we call "Bluegrass" today, the term "Bluegrass" did not become popular, until the early 1960's.
Back in the early 1900's, fiddle was a very popular instrument (no Jukeboxes or records), with the Skillet Lickers having their own prime time radio show in Atlanta, and with the most famous fiddle contest, the Georgia Old Time Fiddle Contest (1919 to 1935), receiving HEADLINE coverage in newspapers.
Soooo......what happened to fiddle music????? Why do I have to peruse UA-cam, to find great fiddle music?????
My opinion, is that the biggest musical tragedy in history, is "giving violins to fifth graders", with virtually ZERO instruction. I was one, but I have recovered.
Another challenge to fiddling, has been "electricity". In the early 1900's, if you wanted Music, you had to hire a Musician. Not any more.
Fiddle is GONNA MAKE A REBOUND!!! Channels like this are helping.
My personal goal, is to apply "Bluegrass Cleanliness" to "Old Time" fiddle tunes. I've heard it, and it sounds AWESOME. I am currently "short" of my objective.
Great channel.
Rock Reynolds
(AKA: Roger Reynard)
Hi Rock. Glad you found this interesting. And good luck with your personal goal!
Very good.
This is really good, and very watchable!
Many thanks!!
Thanks Nick, much appreciated!
@14:57 5 string violin? Didn't even know they existed!
Yes, they've been around for a while now!
I feel like there is a lot more to be said about American music that is meant to be danced to, versus music that is meant to express or impress. So many genre names have been created by the record-selling industry that I feel we sometimes can’t see the Forest for the trees, so to speak. For instance, early recorded music and rural vs. urban differences. Rural white recordings were called “hillbilly” and then “oldtime” while rural black recordings were called “race records” and then “blues.” But the music of both rural white and rural black musicians showed way more overlap and had much more in common than either did with the black or white urban-musician recordings of the time.
All good points! I address the black and white situation in my video "where are all the black fiddle players?"
Thanks! I really enjoyed your explanations!
Thanks Russ, glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for mentioning the horseflies
Brilliant video sir👍
Many thanks!
Not bad at all. I might disagree on a couple of minor points but the overview was clearly well informed. I believe the biggest problem with the term, "Bluegrass" is an over generalization to include in addition to Old Time / String Band, basically anything played with acoustic instruments or electric bands that might include a banjo, mandolin, dobro or fiddle. Bluegrass is a specific sound, with specific instrumentation, arrangement and vocalization. Variations and exceptions obviously occur but once those differences become more dominant it stops being Bluegrass. Bluegrass is a specific not a general term.
Thanks Elliot. What would you disagree with?
@@TheFiddleChannel really very minor things, African's didn't bring over any of the instruments in the middle passage, they took materials in the new world and made instruments from memory of what had been played in Africa which eventually evolved into the banjo. Dobro was introduced into the genre with Flatt and Scruggs in order to distinguish them from Monroe, but I know you can't mention everything in a 15 minute overview. I don't think there is as much commercial Country Music influence on Bluegrass as you implied. They really seem to have made a complete break decades ago. Alison Krauss hasn't had a song played on Top 40 country radio in years here in the US. I think the commercial outlet for both Old Time and Bluegrass is within the commercial engine of "Americana" these days.
Not understanding what you were trying to say. I felt he made clear that Bluegrass is for listening.... Old Time Music is rhythmic for dancing. In Bluegrass, instruments take 'breaks' (solos). In Old Time, everyone has a blast playing in unison. In Bluegrass, it's kinda like competing to show off. In Old Time, it's a joyful synergy that flows from the group as all play together!
@@carolmccollum9341 Clogging both free style and in formal groups are an important part of Bluegrass so I wouldn't say Bluegrass is exclusively a listening music. And String Band music as it is performed today seems to be very much a listening activity as well as dancing.
I don't care for labels, and I like to go to jams that don't really care one way or the other. Jams where it's just music, everybody plays, and we have a great time. To me that's growth and community. Liberal, conservative, old time, bluegrass, newgrass, greengrass, snow on the lawn, who cares? Sing a song, play a lick, improvise, sing harmony, whatever you do just play.
Good attitude!
Music is magic. Music is healing. Getting together with others to create the magic is so awesome!!
Why does a bandura appear in a sample photo of old time music?
Another distinction between old-time and bluegrass is that, historically, old-time musicians have been far less doctrinaire about instrumentation, welcoming everything from accordions and pump organs to drums, cellos, pianos, zithers and more. Whatever was available. Why not a bandura?
Probably some East European immigrants found their way into the Appalachians.
Thanks for this....
Much the same progression took place in jazz: the dance-oriented Hot Jazz (or Jass) of the Twenties and Swing of the Thirties, giving way to the more performance-oriented Be-Bop. Same year, even - 1945.
I believe Kenny Baker was more influential to Bill Monroe's success than Chubby Wise. It baffles me that you would show him on stage but not mention him once.
Great stuff!!! This was really interesting!
Thanks Michael!
Excellent clarification.
Thanks Denis!
Well done. I love Old Time. I like listening to a few BG tunes/songs but quickly tire of them. Playing OT in a jam I get lost like in a mantra. The melody is everything. I find BG to be like jazz where I struggle to find the melody and here a constant run of scales. Just one mandolin hackers opinion 🙂
Hi Mike, I read your comments with interest. Bluegrass like jazz has a language all of its own, and you converse within that language. It's coming up with variations in correct style when it's your tune to solo that's the key. (no pun intended).
Have a listen closely (slowed down) to Bill Monroe's way of tackling a fiddle tune, then to (for example) Jimmy Gaudreau. Totally different approaches, but all part of the style. Have a listen to Bobby Osborne, Sam Bush, Herschel Sizemore, John Duffey , Mike Compton, Adam Steffey and more - I think you'll find plenty of interest there, these are the masters. As you listen, bear in mind that Bluegrass has evolved over the years, even Bill Monroe's mandolin style evolved as time went by.
At British jam sessions, I've heard people turn up who think that they know what bluegrass is about. Irrespective of their chosen instrument, they hammer away relentlessly, don't play in correct style, don't know how to accompany a singer or soloist (play backup, as the Americans say), don't listen to other players at the session. and in general give listeners a bad impression of bluegrass because they haven't studied or made any attempt to learn how the music should be played.
@@gam1471 Thanks for your comments GAM. I'm not "dissing" BG and I think you know that. No doubt BG requires much greater musicianship than OT, or at least the way 95% the musicians play both styles. For me it's getting lost in the melody. Lost in the simplicity. BG is far from "simple". Like jazz I find it to be the music for master musicians and a format to express that mastery. OTOH OT "Americanized" the more complex fiddle tunes from the Scotland, England, and Ireland and in the NE/Canada add the French. The melodies became much more simple/basic. I think of OT as music made by the "non-musicians". Of course there are great skilled musicians playing OT with lots of notes and nuance. BTW I had the opportunity to attend a very small venue in Crockett, Texas in deep East Texas where Robin and Linda Williams played and backed up by Jimmy Gaudreau. I doubt there were more than 75 people in the audience and we sat within spitting distance from them. I watch/listened to Jimmy very carefully. I bought a CD from him after the performance. I told him how I appreciated his playing and I was impressed by how much he didn't play. Every note was important but no notes played that didn't need to be. His absence of notes was brilliant.! He was a great backup to Robin and Linda but didn't distract from their performance, just enhanced it. Robin and Linda were regulars on Garrison Keillor's radio show. I was born in New Orleans and had the opportunity to literally sit at spitting distance in Preservation Hall in the French Quarter from some of the great Dixieland band players long since passed away. My Mom loved the music and we went there often. I thought Gaudreau was from South Louisiana but he's from Washington D.C. He said when the British threw the French out of Canada a number of the French went to the D.C area as well as South Louisiana.
@@mikemcmanus116 Thanks for your most enjoyable reply, Mike. When I was young (1950s), I listened to fiddle dance music a lot on the radio. I wanted a fiddle, but it didn't happen. I didn't enjoy school music lessons, they were totally classical based. I took up the guitar and mandolin during the 1960s folk boom - but I wish there'd been a fiddler who could have got me started when I was young! I know exactly where you're coming from regarding old-time - the combination of the fiddle and a good clawhammer banjoist is pure magic.
And the first settlers also included those from Wales too, perhaps even from as early as the 12th century...Madog ab Owain Gwynedd :-)
Sorry, everyone forgets Wales!
@@TheFiddleChannel It's OK Chris.....it's still a very informative video, thanks.
Welsh Ancestry right here...'Dafydd'> David> Davis
@@rbdavisphoto Apparently Thomas Jefferson was a Welsh speaker too
What’s the name of the tune that starts at about 3:00 ?? I love it!!
That's "Pass around the Bottle", based on "John Brown's Body"
@@TheFiddleChannel thank you 😊
Very well done!
Many thanks!
Very interesting, thank you!
You're welcome, Alain!
@@TheFiddleChannel I've just sent you an e-mail about it!
Might I ask what is the first and the last piece used in this video?
Hi Shizu. The opening piece is Cluck Old Hen. The closing number is Clinch Mountain Backstep, from my album Off the Wall.
@@TheFiddleChannel Much appreciated. Thank you for the effort and value you put into your videos. It's great to learn songs, theory and some history at all time.
Another major distinction between "modern" Old Time and "modern" Bluegrass are the Jam sessions.
Old Time tends to be "inclusive", Bluegrass tends to be exclusive.
Could you please answer, of what? As to both of your comments, inclusive and exclusive.
@@patriciajrs46 My experience with "jams":
Old Time.. Welcomes all.
Bluegrass, shuns those "not up to speed".
@@jeffhildreth9244 Okay. Thank you.
Very good video! America is a melting pot, fusing all it's musical history together. Well done
Excellent!
Thanks Mark!
I challenge everyone to listen to Clawhammer Banjo and remain a bluegrass (Scruggs Style) fan. Listen to Clifton Hicks, Lucas Pool, Riley Bagly, Meredith Moon, Billy String playing Reuben's Train.
Lol... I challenge anyone to listen to Noam Pikelny, Takumi Kodera, Tony Trischka, Alan Munde, or the like and still think clawhammer is better. It's not as musically diverse, as technical, as delicate, or as well suited to showcasing the banjo's melodic tuning capabilities.
@@baileystutzman6096 You gotta be kidding! I've been playing for 50 years. By your list, it's obvious you haven't listened and you certainly don't play. Technical? clawhammer plays both the lead and melody. Diverse? Scruggs style is predominately a USA invention. Clawhammer is world wide. Delicate?hahaha delicate as a sledgehammer! Listen to Lucas Pool, you can't do that with picks. Tuning capabilities? Oh Please- that was just ignorant. Same tunings are used!-- Scruggs was all flash, just to get on the Opry. Read the history!
@@baileystutzman6096 hmmm. different styles for different objectives... Bluegrass has me sittin' in my seat. Old time gives me 'dancy feet'. The goal/focus of each style is different. I can like both. We don't have to chose one as 'better' & exclude the other!! Ok... ie: spaghetti versus tacos.... or.... vanilla versus chocolate.... color blue or color purple.... car versus truck... Florida or California.... soooo many choices. We all have things in life that resonate with us, either like a magnet, or a repellant.... Isn't diversity great??!! I love tofu. It's ok if you don't!! Life is short. Music is MAGIC. Whatever genre speaks to you/fires you up/lifts you up/energizes you/makes you happy.... GO FOR IT. Enjoy what love... and SHARE THAT!!
was that a picture of a bandura?
The passionate intensity of singing in bluegrass is a key difference. I've always loved those harmonies on top of a powerful lead voice, particularly on the slow numbers and gospel material. Listen to Bill Monroe, the Stanley Brothers, The Osborne Brothers, The Country Gentlemen, The Seldom Scene, Jimmy Martin, Red Allen - without the singing, bluegrass isn't bluegrass.
Yes, I agree. Is that all down to the influence of Bill Monroe do you think?
@@TheFiddleChannel I'd say yes - however, I'm English, so I now refer to a higher authority! The following quote is from page 56 of 'Can't You Hear Me Calling' - the life of Bill Monroe, Father of Bluegrass by Richard D. Smith (2000, Da Capo Press) who says: 'Monroe's music also got a boost from the higher keys in which he pitched many vocals. His decision to sing, for example, in keys like Bb and B - instead of the C or A favoured by most country vocalists of the day - had originally been an expedient to better suit his range. It had the unexpected benefit of putting the keening - and compelling - high element into Monroe's high, lonesome sound.'
Great piece.
Thanks Jimmy!
Hillary Clinton called us something else lol. I'm happy to say my Appalachian family's did both types of music from the beginning and still do today.
That's great!
Trying to define old time is difficult... akin to trying to catch a greased pig... when you are done you are covered with mud and pig shit and you still haven't caught the damn pig... you really should credit John Hartford with pioneering new grass... that is who Sam Bush got it from... and Sam readily admits it... and a lot more credit needs to be given to the African influence in old time...old time: West Africa meets the Celtic world in Appalachia and magic happens... Mike Seeger once said... and I paraphrase here.... bluegrass is where you use the tune to show off your talent, old time is where you use your talent to show off the tunr
I love the Mike Seeger quote. Spot on!
The very best old time fiddlin was done by Clayton Mcmichen on the 1927 cut of Sally Goodwin.
He was well ahead of his time!
Have a listen to Eck Robertson's 1922 recording of Sally Goodin. The first, and I don't think it's ever been surpassed.
I recognise you from the Hoedown!!
Yee hah!
So the difference isn't in how you play the G chord? Lol... in the other leading search result video, the guy says that's the difference. Bluegrass mutes the 3rd of the g chord & old time plays it normal. It understood what he was saying but imho the title should've been a little different
🤣Ah, that G chord. Funny how we obsess about our own instruments!
music descended from Celtic music is always Celtic.
Tremendous summary. Vibrato on fiddle in old-time is pretty .uch unheard of and / or verboten.
Interesting that you say forbidden. I had never heard that said about it.
Quick version: If Old Time were Black Sabbath then Bluegrass would be the Big Four of Thrash.
Well in my opinion the bluegrass of today doesn't sound like bluegrass. It's so fancied up it doesn't sound like the bluegrass of the originals like Bill Monroe. I'm like some of the old timers when it comes to that. The style of bluegrass today has lost the beauty and often you can't even tell what tune they are playing. No old timey is the traditional music that was played way before Bill Monroe. It is the purest. I knew bluegrass was not a new thing. Any musician should know it began with Bill. As far as bluegrass itself the younger musicians now play something that I'd call newgrass not bluegrass. I don't care for it.
We are lucky enough to live in the time of the greatest fiddle player ever in Michael Cleveland. Maybe one of the greatest flat pickers of all time in Billy Strings. I'd also like to take issue with your definition of Hillbilly. I come from a long line of Hillbillies and we don't consider ourselves the morons! Then or now. A higher education is no guarantee or proof of higher intelligence. 3:08 It also bears mentioning Chet Atkins stifled fiddle playing in Nashville until Mark O'Conner came along.
The general public in the US doesn’t know the term Old Time .
Hi Samba. So if the general public are aware of this music, what would they call it?
By the way, you're right about the Black string bands. I did a separate video on that topic; ua-cam.com/video/rCOKPNalMMo/v-deo.html
The general public are generally not aware of it . But there is a broad, not quite mainstream trend of rootsy, and eclectic faux rootsy stuff called Americana
ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I'm 76. Started playing violin at 7. I'm 76. Good grief... almost 70 yrs.. !! Started with scales, etudes, classical music, concertos. I was so enthralled with how I could express emotion thru my violin. Played in orchestra all thru school yrs. Got married 1964. Put my violin in the closet for a few yrs. 1988, 'discovered' fiddling music & my fiddle became my friend again. Especially drawn to Irish fiddling & old time tunes. Ended up learning lots of Irish tunes & playing for Ceili dancers & at sessions. Also played old timey at Contra Dances. 1988, Also joined OTFC Dist 7, basically old time contest fiddle music group. There sooo many different genres of music. The focus of OTFC (Old Time Fiddle Club) group is to help fiddlers learn contest tunes & to give them a format in which to practice those tunes at mtgs, so they'll have more confidence at contests. This type of old time fiddling is focused on contests tunes & prep for those. Fiddler typically has backup of guitar & base... maybe another instrument... but for this, the fiddler is in the spotlight. AND.... there are different types of contests with different criteria. There's just plain 'Old Timey'... and then there's the Texas Swing fiddle contests. Well, folks...whatever music 'floats your boat'.... ENJOY... and please be sure to share the magic of music. We need it.
Your conclusions are false and possibly the result of research draw almost exclusively from urban academia with virtually no firsthand or practical experience or perhaps exclusively from the modern internet references. My ancestors were playing "Bluegrass" before the close of the 19th century and perhaps before that with many tunes clearly evolved from ancient melodies with origins in ancient Britain and more likely Scotland and Ireland. Any Bluegrass musician who spends any time in the British Isles will very quickly recognize most Irish folk tunes or Scottish melodies as very familiar and in short order will be able to accompany flawlessly with any stringed band. I propose that many early immigrants from the British Isles brought with them their folk tunes and while the words were lost the melody survived with new lyrics written to form Bluegrass or Old time songs. As for the banjos origins I would ask; "Exactly which African stringed instrument provides the basis for the banjo?" It seems to me there are very few stringed instruments with African origins and those few that do exist most likely have Arabic origins. Meanwhile Medieval and ancient Europe is replete with stringed instruments of every type and variation and their evolution can be easily traced. I highly recommend you spend some time in the field and with the people that actually sing and play bluegrass music.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kora_(instrument)
@moominpic That's 1 fine example compared with hundreds of examples throughout Erupoe. Clearly early Irish/Sotch immigrants attempted to recreate such instruments as the Irish Bozouki or other of the same. Most slaves came from the West coast of Africa. Show me an example of a string instrument native to these cultures and you will have my interest. Stop forfeiting my culture and ancestry.
OT musicians think BG musicians are a bunch of showoffs. BG musicians think OT musicians are snobs. They're both right.
Good answer!
I call it all Appalachian or mountain music.
The "ancestor of the banjo" was a stick in a gourd with 1 string. It's a bit of a reach to say it's an ancestor of the banjo rather than the spark of an idea for the banjo.
The akonting has three strings, including a short drone string. It is played and sounds very much like clawhammer banjo.
@@tomsmart1970 okay so how does that make the one string stick vegetable the ancestor of the banjo
sorry ol' son, but alison is not the queen of bluegrass. rhonda vincent is, & has been labeled that for a while.
Tried listening to Bluegrass Junction on satellite radio lately. Most of todays bluegrass, if you can call it that, ain’t worth listening to.
Its much simpler: Old time is living room and front porch music, and BG is stage music. If you plug in and amp you’re playing BG.
🤣
Unless you’re at the mic to play for a contra dance!😊
This video has a bias toward bluegrass
A perceptive comment!