Why Did Eru Intervene With Númenor But Not With Melkor? Middle-earth Explained
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2023
- Eru Ilúvatar seldom intervened in the affairs of Middle-earth directly, but while he did with Númenor, he did not do so with the war against Melkor. Here are my thoughts as to why this was the case! Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts on this topic in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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The Valar intervened against Melkor in favor of the Children of Eru, but largely for the Elves. Eru intervened in Numenor for all of his children but largely to save Men from being tarnished by Sauron. The Elves were the ant farm of the Valar while Men were Eru's.
1. The Valar only intervened because Earendil asked them to. Eru intervened because he was forced to.
2. Melkor was trapped in Middle-Earth and could be contained, which was the Elves' strategy for centuries. Numenor on the other hand was an island between Middle-Earth and Valinor, putting the latter at risk.
3. Let's not forget the most important difference: Sauron tricked the Numenoreans into thinking they could get eternal life by *invading Valinor* , abusing the fact that the Valar couldn't directly intervene against them. Melkor was less of a threat on Middle-Earth than a darkening Numenor poised to land ships on Valinor itself.
@@ethanwelch3235 I like the think Eru was team petty dwarf :p
Better answer than the video
@@MarvinT0606 Silmarillion made it clear that Eru cannot be caught by surprise--it was simply necessary to bring about the series of events that brings about everything that was meant to happen afterwards. He wasn't compelled to move--he planned it from the very beginning. On the functional side of things, he was the only one who had every right to move because the Valar cannot raise a hand against the children of Iluvatar. The Valar themselves could not bring Feanor & his sons to justice no matter how proverbially bad a taste the kinslaying had left in their mouths. Indeed you're correct that Eru alone had complete jurisdiction on punitive matters concerning his children.
@@mytandasouder4485 Too bad Eru didn't make The Dwarven People full-fledged Children of Eru rather than adopting them.
In the legendarium, death is the great gift Iluvatar gave his secondborn. By attempting to cross to the immortal lands they were on the verge of throwing away that gift, and in that way Eru's sinking of Numenor was Him saving the Numenoreans from themselves.
people always forget that in fantasy the "cycle" is usually a benevolent merciful thing that happens.
So, in other words, Melkor/Morgoth's attempts to rebel against Eru's will only inadvertently enforced Eru's will. Wow.
It was all Eru's song. The Ainur - including Melkor - were just the choir he made to sing the world into existence.
You could say that a lkttle darkness is necessary in order to make you better appreciate the light.
If Eru is omniscient then he would have known that Melkor would add dissonance to the song even before it began. While the other Valar fought to overcome that dissonance, Eru himself must have intended it to be there or he wouldn't have created Melkor.
Regarding Eru's will, two questions must be answered. One, "Do causes influence His will?" Two, "Is a classification in the divine will permissible?"
One. On one hand, regarding the majesty of Eru's will, he is independent of all things, absolute, and unconditioned. Thus, the evil will coming form the evil heart doesn't enforce Eru's will as if to condition his will. Eru is transcendent over all things, and none are capable of even starting to come before him in his essence, which is the same as his will. // On the other hand, from the novel, it seems like Eru's will is conditioned, dependent, and relative to creatures such as the Numenoreans or the Valar. Thus, the Valar pray to him and he reacts by demolishing the evil rebellious Numenorians and their foundation.
Two. As far as Eru's essence, there is no classificatin/division of Eru's will. For there is only one will in Eru and it is identical to his essence. But because creatures are finite, so our comprehension is finite, and can't perfectly comprehend the infinite. Classifications are needed in the divine will = It is necessarily permissible.
So we can classify Eru's first/antecedent will and his second/consequent will. His first will is that all shall live. His second will is that all who reject him are already condemned. One will. For example, teachers first/antecedent will is to give their students 100% for their grade, and their second/consequent will is if the students don't do the work and perform to that expectation then they won't get that 100%.
"The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion - for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God; and a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred. At the moment that Arpharazôn set foot on the forbidden shore, a rift appeared: Númenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed; the armada was swallowed up; and the Blessed Realm removed for ever from the circles of the physical world. Thereafter one could sail right round the world and never find it." Letter 156
I've always taken Eru's pronouncement as imposing a limitation built into fate, so that as he sees Melkor going astray early on in creation he limits the harm that can be done. Thus he doesn't intend evil to befall his creation or his children - otherwise torturing of early elves into the orcs would have been part of his intentions, rather than being "the deed most hateful to Illuvatar" - but rather he turns it so that the long-term outcome will be to the good. The earliest of his interventions, if you will.
To understand this, you have to realize that there is a passive and active will. When something is passively willed by Eru, he is permitting it to happen, so that something else can result from it. When he actively wills something, then he actively shaping the person, object, or event to be in conformity with his will.
Something else to consider, is that certain virtues can only be enacted in the presence of evil, whether natural or moral.
Courage, for example can only be enacted in the face of some threating natural evil.
Mercy, in turn, can only be shown when one is offended by some moral evil committed by one you have authority over.
In short, if we accept the premises that Eru is all knowing, all powerful and all good, then we must conclude that Arda, when considered in its entirety, is the best that it could have possibly been. Because, for a being who is being itself, and thus perfect, could not have chosen (without doing violence to his own being) to create anything less than the best version of a thing that could be made.
Now Orc and Balrog must breed. As Thingol and Malina did. So that evil might have a half breed of itself lol They could have their own cut Beren and Luthian story ,:)
I think Eru intervened with Numenor because the Numenorians were his second born children. They became a threat to the west. By Ar Pharazon sailing to Aman they were basically claiming lordship of Arda. Eru and the Valar could not tolerate that. He had to punish them by taking Numenor away from them. With regards to Melkor/Morgoth Eru gave the Ainur free reign and will within Arda. They did spring from his elemental thoughts so it was complicated.They had lordship of Arda so they had to sort the events of the world out themselves. However I do think Eru in subtle ways, beyond our knowledge, probably did stir some force in favor of the Valar to finally expell Morgoth from Arda.
the valar were forbidden from hurting the humans and elves. Eru intervened to save his valar, or thats what I think I read in the silmarillion
I recently read at an Open Mic the very beginning of the Ainulindale to that very same line by Eru Iluvatar.. that concept in general kind of solves philosophically the idea of evil. It is necessary, like you say, like Light needs Darkness.. but it is all apart of the greater will of The One, Unbegotten, before and apart of the All.
I personally think that its because Morgoth was an enemy they could ralley against. THE Enemy. However Sauron through his manipulation had turned friends into foes and because of this Saurons evil was something which could attack the free peoples in ways that Morgoth never tried (outside of maybe the kinslaying but that was mostly Faenor on his own and it wasn't as drastic as Numenor either).
So i personally think that this is the reason why Eru did not need to interfere against Morgoth while he did for Sauron.
Don't forget an elf dueled Morgoth in combat 1 vs 1. He lost but wounded a Valar. Eru knew Middle Earth could defeat Morgoth. And Numenor was a gift. They took it back when men broke the rules.
Sauron was way, WAY less _powerful_ than Morgoth, but in many ways he was much more dangerous. Sauron was too smart, patient, and focused to eat himself alive like Morgoth did, which made him more of a threat because he was perfectly willing to win via ways closer to soft power/ diplomacy conditions than Morgoth EVER was.
"There are other forces at work, besides that of evil...."
Tough question for anyone to answer. But any parent knows when your children disobey they need to be set right. And this has themes of the Old Testament written all over it. I think that Morgoth was the evil that the children needed to conquer and defeat in order to grow stronger. But when they allow that same evil into their hearts and minds, well that changes things. There's a reason the faithful were spared after all.
I agree. Bouncing between the music and ages, I feel there are several instances of Erü's interventions in the subtlest of ways. Recently I was reflecting on Merry and Pippin's capture and ultimate escape from the Urk Hai and Orcs- a land as large as Rohan, this specific band of Orc/Urk's, the specific location along Fangorn's borders, the timing of each meeting and their purpose in the entire scheme of the War of the Ring...
I believe Gandalf makes specific reference in his telling of his ability to intervene in the time while Frodo had the ring on after his encounter with Boromir. 'From that high place I was able to...' 'Take it off now you Fool!' ... That's reminiscent of tales of encounters with speaking with Angels or Saints or even God themself
That's a good point!
This is a great comment! It’s a perspective that I never thought about. Thanks for sharing this!
Spot on!!
Well said mate!
I would agree except for the fact that hopefully, when your children disobey you don't set their bedroom on fire
Yet another thoroughly enjoyable video, great visuals, great narrative, great content. Thank you.
Very interesting video. Funny enough I was discussing this earlier today with my brother!
The inconsistency seems to be that the Valar allowed the elves to choose risking withering in Middle Earth while a similar choice was not allowed for men in the Undying Lands. Being warned is acceptable to a free person while being banned yields rebellion.
"Illegals in my yard, illegals in my yard''
Only thing is men can't become immortal by going to Valinor/Undying Lands. I think they said it would actually make them die faster if they went there.
Good video! Answered a question I wondered about for a while
Iluvatar DID intervene directly in the War of the Jewels: creating the Choice of Luthien. This is the "thing greater and more beautiful" created out of Morgoth's evil. Not only does the Choice directly ensure Morgoth's defeat but also Sauron's.
7:02 no. The elves were certainly capable of defeating Ar-Pharazon assuming the Valar could deal with Sauron. The reason Eru's intervention was necessary was because this situation was partially the Valar's fault. Sauron was only taking advantage of the Valar's unintentional cruelty: Tolkien explicitly says that hiding Valinor was a big mistake and cruel on the part of the Valar. The Valar treated the sight of Valinor as a privilege that could be taken away, but it wasn't supposed to be. This action only reinforced the idea that seeing or being in Valinor was some kind of privilege (it's not, it's a consolation prize for elves), which led the Numenoreans further into evil. Removing Valinor from the world was as much a punishment for the Valar's cruelty as the sinking of Numenor was a punishment for Ar-Pharazon's hubris.
It sounds like you are trying to suggest that Eru had to UNDO what his Valar did, but the whole video is about how even evil itself was a part of Eru’s plan and so too was Numenor’s rise and fall. The title of this video could be: “Melkor, Sauron and Numenor were not a bug-they were a feature.”
Yeah the Valar even though basically God fked up alot. One thing... Hiding the trees of light in Valinor while the rest of the world was dark. If Melkor didn't kill the two trees were the Valar going to leave all of middle earth in darkness? They also didn't seem seem as excited to see the second born. I see no reason why Humans couldn't visit Valinor. They said it themselves. It is not the land of Valinor but the inhabitants that are immortal. Humans could visit there and just die quicker. As seen when Frodo and Bilbo got the invite.
How was hiding Valinor a cruel mistake? Aren't mortals not supposed to go to Valinor? And humans go to the Halls of Mandos when they die!
@@abcjuniormilton keyword 'when they die' a living mortal there will be stuck, still aging in a land that is unchanging. Valinor is an ageless land for an ageless people. Middle Earth is a transitional land (it changes, grows, decays, and sprouts anew) for a transitional people.
@@davidlewis5312 people still die in valinor it's just mortal men thrive in an everchanging world where their life in valinor would feel like being a mayfly living among turtles because everything else is unchanging around them.
Men were refused because they wouldn't actually be happy there. This is also the reason why only aging heroes were invited who were already retiring for their last days anyway.
But if you were to born in valinor you'd be robbed of a dynamic everchanging life as a man.
YAY! A NEW VID!
i literally just watched the video on the Numeneroan’s history, and after hearing Eru intervened there AND with Gollum tripping, i wondered, “why not just do that with Morgoth…?” Thanks for covering literally every aspect of Arda, loving getting into this mythos with the help of your channel!
Great question, I've always wanted to explore this in depth
Great topic. 💪🏽
Man, that was a Good Question and a Great Answer Mellon...
Eru Ilúvatar had Planned it all, because he Knows All!!!
Thanks, Mellon for this Fan Suggestion, Until Húrin's ECH...Marion Baggins Out!!!
If I remember correctly, it’s because the Valar literally asked him to. They momentarily relinquished their power as “stewards” of Arda and called upon its one true “King”. They never did that in the First Age. They were always able to handle things on their own. And as for why that changed in the Second Age… well, my best guess is that it’s because of how badly Sauron screwed things up in Númenor, to a point where the Valar literally felt unfit to pass judgement on the enormity of Ar-Pharazon’s hubris. The only one who went beyond him in his God-defying madness is *Morgoth himself.* The difference between the two being, of course, that Melkor was a Vala, so the Valar dealt with him, while Pharazon was a Child of Eru, so Eru dealt with him.
Also I want to them you because your words are the end give me strength.... I'm going thru the hardest time in my life and I don't want to endure it anymore but I have no choice... Then you for giving me inspiration to endure it
I literally asked myself this just the other day. I'm so glad I have an answer!
Very good video ! thanks a lot
Nice one!
one of your best videos in yours!
Well done good sir. Hard questions all around. We may never know for sure.
Brother this was amazing. I don’t know if you realize it, but what you’ve described is precisely how many would describe the Sovereign God of Christianity and the problem of evil in our own world. He is a God who does all of His will, and though He gives His sentient creatures the freedom of will, yet even their most deviant actions and intentions are bent to His will for even greater purposes and glory. This was a wonderful parallel analogy, and one that I’m sure Tolkien intended.
Yoystan, That quote from the time of the Song, before the creation of Arda, certainly was used by Tolkien to foreshadow all the marring that Morgoth would cause and how it ultimately was taken into account by Eru. This merely mirrors Tolkien's Catholic faith that all creatures of God are given free will, which cannot be taken away without making them into mere automatons. This then means that there was no "necessary balance" of good and evil that Tolkien was providing. Rather that Eru foresaw all the machinations of Morgoth from eternity and providentially gave his Valar and his children the means to overcome them and bring about a world more wonderful than any had imagined possible. But you are correct: There was no other way for the Valar to deal with the invasion from Numenor than to call on Eru in that instance. The outcome proves that they could not do so under any other circumstances without catastrophic consequences. Namarie.
Thank you for your comment! Your exact reply against the dualistic point of view (both good and evil were necessary for creation) screamed in my mind while listening to Yoystan. ❤
In fact it's impressive how Yoystan posts so much content and rarely (if he ever) mentions Tolkien's Catholic faith and phylosophy, even though it is crystal clear that the motiffs and themes are everywhere in Tolkien's works
@@pedrobolsi8366 I think Yoystan is doing very well. Not everyone sees all ends, as Gandalf would say. It takes a long time and many readings to find the depth of our great Professor. Namarie.
@@gandalfolorin-kl3pj well said. Agreed 👍
I love this video bro!! One of my favorite because it is based from one of my favorite lines from the Silmarillion
The Valar were forbidden to act directly against the Children of Ilúvatar by Eru Ilúvatar. Just as the Valar did not stop the Noldor from leaving Valinor, the Valar did not stop the Númenoreans. By the rules laid upon them, they had to turn the matter over to Eru Ilúvatar. Melkor was another matter. They did have the ability to act against him. If memory serves, somewhere in HoME or one of Tolkien's letters, he wrote that at one point, he chastised the Valar for being so slow to act against Melkor.
That is a very interesting idea I had not considered. Originally I believed that it was because that Men, not being of the world in the same way as the Valar or Maiar or Eldar, had the power to overthrow the Valar. That they were a genuine threat. Though they would not have succeeded in their quest for immortality.
I love to hear these stories, and to the exclusion of much else.
One question that I have about Melkor is that if he was always destined to do evil, to be a challenge for the people of arda to overcome, why was he not always evil. Mellor was mentioned to have wanted to create his own life forms and searched for the flame imperishable. It is mentioned that the ainur are made from Iru's thoughts. I theorize that Melkor was created by Iru's thoughts about creating life, and that being unable to create his own life drove him to despair and evil.
I think that this would explain why Melkor was the most powerful if the ainur. It resolves how Iru could be good and have created evil. He must of created Melkor and know that evil would then be created by melkor. He allowed that because he wanted to test the people of arda.
I like your theory, one note though - Melkor is not destined to do evil. He is capable of doing evil, as Eru has imagined evil, which is a subtle difference
I like this theory. Melkor had a pure beginning, but by his own choice he rebelled.
Three forces are needed to the existance of any world (real or imaginary)
Force of creation
Force of preservation
Force of destruction
I think it's effed up to let so much ruin occur as a "test". It's like, dude you're all powerful, why can't you make a better plan than this?
I would really like to see an episode about the 9 Ships that escaped the Akallabêth and the foundation of the new kingdoms in Middle Earth. I'd like answers to how many travelled on the nine ships and the size of the Numenorean population already living in Middle Earth and were faithful.
The scumbags of Umbar can rot a little longer 😂😂😂😊
This question honestly never occurred to me, nor did I infer that there was any strict prohibition against the Valar fighting the Children of Iluvatar. But if the latter point is true, then it explains everything very neatly.
This made me think about early actions. What if Aule didn't create the dwarves until Eru told him too or never let them exist? Either question would make a good video. I wonder more of dwarves awakening with Men.
Without the Dwarves, the Dagor Bragallach would have been an overwhelming victory for Morgoth, perhaps preventing Fingolfin from going to challenge him directly. With the renewed threat and the leadership of their high king, maybe the Noldor would have kept a better resistance.
Also the Girdle of Meloan would not have been taken away because the Nauglimir wouldn't have been made, leading to Thingol surviving. He would have tried to remain out of the conflict, but perhaps would have eventually been persuaded to rejoin the fight.
@Jared Mueller I know. The possibilities are endless and the storylines change in a major way. Fun to speculate.
4:54 Hard disagree on this. Given Tolkien’s own background, he would not have written Eru to have needed anything from Melkor. I think it would be more accurate to say that Tolkien envisioned that Eru’s plans were so perfect that they could make good from anything, whether the components themselves were themselves good.
The Valar didn't allow themselves to hurt the Children of Eru (in this case, Men). The human attack on Valinor wasn't something the Valar would obliterate. So Eru had to do a "Fine, I'll do it myself" and wipe out the invasion force, as well as Numenor itself (and Sauron, the true culprit).
For Elves and Men are the Children of Iluvatar; and since they
understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music,
none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the
Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their
masters; and if ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have
endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this
turned to good, howsoever good the intent.
And
But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the
world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said,
‘These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to
the glory of my work.’
Here we have the reason Iluvatar intervened in Numenor. Like you said, the Valar never interfered. The Valar knew not the full depths of the Theme which brought forth the Children. That's why they let Feanor do what he did, even though they could have prevented the Kinslaying at Alqualonde. You posit that the Valar were forbidden against direct action is part of it, but the Valar knew if they tried to stop Ar-Pharazon directly, worse would have happened. So they called upon the Creator. And Iluvatar too did as little as he could, for the Forsaken are trapped until the Dagor Dagorath, at which point they would ultimately (my headcanon) fight for Iluvatar and Tar-Calion would be redeemed. For Redemption is a HUGE part of Tolkien's writings, being the good Catholic he was.
Thanks
I've always heard Eru's words toward Melkor in the voice of a child saying "I meant for you to do that."
Also Melkor never made any attempts to attack Valinor (apart from stealing the silmaril early on). He would have probably tried so at some point and if he succeeded in completely conquering Beleriand and sailing against Valinor himself, who knows, maybe Eru would have stopped him aswell. Seems kinda like Middle earth was Ardas Battle Royal PVP Rumble region while Valinor was more sacred, so attacking it kinda crossed the line.
I think Melkor never attempted to attack Valinor because he knew it was futile. 1 lone Valar with a few fallen Mayar is not enough to overthrow Valinor especially when facing Turkas & Orome whom compared to the rest of Valar had battle experience (dint forget Valinor still has way more faithful mayar than Melkor). The result of the battle of Utumno when Melkor was first captured upon the discovery of the Elves is a foreshadow of how it would've ended if he invaded Valinor. Even with the combined powers of the Dark forces of Balariant, and the children and adopted children of Eru, they would've never overthrown the sacred lands of Valinor. Remember Valars and Mayars are immortal, even though the Balrogs are as well just like Saruman, they can't re-incarnate against the will of Manhwe. That's why fallen Balrogs were never seen again. But faithful mayar such as Gandalf was reincarnated. It's a losing battle no matter how u look at it
I 110% agree with your logic with not intervening with Melkor, it is exactly what came to my mind when I first read the title for this video, but I must disagree a bit with why he did intervene against the men of Numenor as I believe the two are related or two sides of the same coin so to speak. I think it is simply just as they were in defiance of his design. While all that Melkor did was "by Eru's design", Men going to Valinor/the Undying lands was expressly against the rules and design of Eru. Valinor was for the Ainor and the first born and men were given "the gift of death" and "where the went was know only to Eru". There had been evil and corrupt Men before like those who were swayed by Melkor to betray the Noldor and were in turn betrayed by Melkor in the 1st age and the "Men of the East" who were in league with Sauron in the 3rd age. But because the Numenorians in essence defied the law, design, or will of Eru the were "making war on Eru" as well as the Ainor and this could not be permitted. He alone could have permitted the Ainor to defend themselves and Valinor, but Eru , I believe, then acted as only he should not only to punish the Numenorians but to spare the Ainor of having the "blood of Men" on there hands.
So, it seems that Eru knew of Melkor's faults, and decided that things should play out, knowing that, ultimately, the world would eventually be remade once Melkor was finally defeated. By allowing the people of Middle Earth to face Melkor's, and later Sauron's, evil, with the assitance of the Istari, it allowed them to elevate themselves to become better parts of Eru's chorus when the world was remade.
Something that people always seem to forget is that Eönwë came to Númenor and “taught” them, now to me this has always been huge because Eönwës only description is “whos might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda” what else did he have to teach other than skill in battle, when the Númenoreans landed in Valinor the elves literally abandoned Tirion their great city and fled? The elves also needed their help against Sauron and when Ar-Pharazon actually challenged him he surrendered himself, SAURON surrendered himself to MEN!? Because the truth is they were just too skilled in battle and they would be extremely difficult to overcome by force. I know to the Valar especially Tulkas it would have been a walk in the park but still why make battle if a lot of elves would have to die in the process, I feel like them calling upon Eru was them apologizing for their mistake of giving men the gifts of long life, health, wisdom, skill in battle and also wanting to spare some elves from having to go to Mandos for a bit. So Eru granted their prayer and removed their mistake.
It's something I wished Eru Iluvatar did more often in relationship to his created ones and preserving more of them from physical harm on such a massive scale such as the hundrede of thousands of righteous elves who were murdered in many of those events in the First Age. In the Bible Yahuah and Yahusha Elohim always made certain to establish conditions and rules where Satan is restrained and not allowed to harm human beings physically directly without his consent even though he is allowed to decieve and work through evil spirits and willing servants who serve underneath his authority to lead people atray and into his designs by indirect methods.
Currently in Mordor (US east coast)
"where sin abounded so did grace."
Much has already said in the comments, but I think it is important to emphasize the difference of Men and Valar (and even elves). The fall of Melkor is one thing, but the fall of Eru's second children would be more dangerous in a cosmic sense.
yet another exceedingly interesting topic. Hope you're not planning on casting a wider net ;?
When something is thoroughly infected, sometimes the only solution to save the patient is to remove the appendage. I think this was why Eru destroyed not just the invading army, but Numenor itself. Not doing the latter would have spread the anti Valar resentment across the world, particularly after the loss of husband's son and brothers when the fleet was destroyed. It would have been an immense win for Sauron.
With regards Manwe: I belive that he would not, could not, bring himself to kill the children of Eru - just by his very nature. This left him in an impossible position, so he laid down his kingship of Arda, effectively passing the problem to his lord and father, Eru.
Title for this might have been, “Melkor, Sauron and Numenor were not a bug-they were a feature.”
Consider the possibility that Melkor was always loyal to Eru's plans. Melkor's nature, sharing in the gifts of all his siblings, among the Valor was to add variety, change to what others had wrought. Eru himself proclaimed that whatever Melkor did originated within his music including evil. Perhaps at the end of days Melkor will finally be revealed for his service to Eru's plans and redeemed. If true it's quite the sacrifice to become everyone's nightmare for ages as a necessary component to finishing Eru's creation.
The Valar's and Melkor's actions had already been preordained; their life on Arda was them experiencing/living the song they had already composed. The only creatures with real freewill were those created by Anu and for them their choices could alter everything. This was the risk Anu had to take to ensure there was real beauty - being good only has meaning if it is a choice and victory only has meaning if you could lose (although I struggle with the fact that there is a final triumphant score at the end of the symphony implying that Anu was in control throughout!!!)
I mean he is basically lucifer and the original lucifer story follows that same outline so probably. Hes just the scapegoat
For her himself hath imagined.... It hits me everytime I hear the audio version of the book.... Along with the creation of rain and the element of water
I would draw parallel here with some themes from Christianity.
Oversimplified, I think evil did not stand chance against united forces of good from all of Eru's children. Whether they oppose and fight the evil or join it is up to them. And even all the way up to third age, when Sauron tries to exploit weaknesses from the world of Men (fear of death, desire for power, struggles between kingdoms), but we see Men overcome those weaknesses and make them strengths. That is when Men truly defeat Sauron.
After all, that is how I see battle between good and evil.
I've asked myself this question more than once, and your explanation makes a lot of sense. But I've also long thought that the Valar overreacted to the invasion from Numenor. Why not just surrender, without fighting, and wait for the Numenoreans to die of old age anyway? If they were worried about the Elves living in Valinor, heck, why not let the Elves occupy Numenor while the Numenoreans were in their backyard? I mean, the Teleri were expert sailors, right?
From my reading of Tolkien, Melkor’s corrupting of captured Elves into Orcs was ‘more hateful to Iluvatar’ than anything the Numenoreans ever did, including the attempt to invade Valinor. Yet Iluvatar permitted the former, and prevented the latter.
Perhaps it wasn't an intervention at all, so much as a pre-destined event set up by Eru in the beginning, timed to occur just when Eru knew all along it would be needed. Although, I suppose for a being as timeless and eternal as Eru, that would be a distinction without a difference.
They had the gift of eru, something literally greater than even the valar or maiar could ever imagine (save maybe Gandalf)
Men got this when they died welcomed into Erus own shores.
So I can understand why eru did that ahah
Your vid on green hags is not in the playlist
I’m putting together the Rivendell Lego set to these videos 🧝♂️
Eru intervened because the Valar asked him too. The Valar were not threatened by Morgoth during the War of the Jewels and most were content to sit in Valinor and let the Elves and Men fall, so they never asked for help.
"O happy fault that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer!"
I'm curious if Tolkien didn't potentially live as one of the characters in his books. If so, which one do you think he would be.
raises the Q, invites the Q: (see maverickphilosopher typepad "On the Correct Use of 'Begging the Question'") Re: Eru permission of evil, not willed or necessary: Eru ie omnibenevolence and omnipotence cannot will evil nor does it need an absence of good to achieve its ends. Eru cannot will evil simply so it is a mistake to use 'necessary' as if he was dependent on it. See thomism wordpress 'Mysterium Iniquitatis' .. remembe Iluvitar was incomprehensibly sad in the third and last theme in the Ainulindale.
True, Eru had restricted the Valar so he had to intervene himself. Excellent video.
Yea but Melkor was also an Ainu and he was destroying the children of eru left and right. Doesnt make sense.
👍👍👍
This leads me to a question. Why is it when the Elves commit violence against one another its seen as a kin slaying by the Valar, but not when men got to war with other men?
One could argue that Eru had acted subtly without the need for grand displays of divine power
It must be said the the destruction of Numenor was necessary because they willingly submitted to evil whereas Melkor was more a force of nature meant to test the free peoples
Here's a question
Can Goblins, Orcs, Uruks and even Trolls potentially be used to do good?
Would you like to make a video on the topic? Would Eru Ilúvatar ever incarnate and come to Arda, as is the case in Christian theology? Thank you.
Do we know anything about that continent to the far south?
Probably because the Valar asked/ceded their powers. The Valar didn't want to fight Eru's children and they showing up for a fight forced them to defer up the chain. They didn't do that with Melkor because they thought they could handle it/didn't think they needed to handle it.
This is one of those questions that really means "why didn't eru just disallow melkor to even be in the first place" and the answer is "BC that's not fun to write about"
Well rationalized. You'd make a good theologian.
Eru was the father of all. The ban of man on the deathless land was put forth by Eru [via Manwe ] . When a parent says if you do a thing that is forbidden then you shall be punished. That parent Must do that thing when the child misbehaves . To not do so is to not be a parent .
imagine if Amazon had installed only one staffer to lead a forum discussing Tolkien lore and how we, the fans like to see our beloved franchise be handled and shown to us.
The amount of expertise in here would have been so much valuable for the production, but i guess they knew better... better even than J.R.R. Tolkien himself, in their mind...
Let us take a moment to remember that in these instances Melkor cowered in fear at the approaching army of the lesser gods while Sauron stood defiant, laughing in the face of GOD.
Even in fiction you can't escape the problem of evil!
so basically, Eru already knew that Melkor would eventually lose, and while he fought, he'd bring in the necessary elements of the world, such as bitter cold, scorching deserts, plagues, rot, decay, corruption, pride, etc. Hence, it was almost like a stage play. Free will however is non-negotiable, which was why the Valar were not allowed to change the free will of the Children, even when that would be to turn them away from evil. Only Eru could destroy them, for if the Valar tried to, they'd go down the bloody path Melkor did
The Valar could've send the Elves against Numenor, but i seem to remember they were all, Valar and Elves mortified by the prospect of their human friends having turned to evil and could not bring themselves to fight them, even if they could.
It is the universe, order and chaos, one in the same.
Everything Melkor did was part of the music already written (I see Melkor as the manifestation of Iluvatar's own destructive side and his acts were needed and planned - Tolkien's way of explaining why his God allowed such bad things to happen) but men being of freewill could change everything and intervention was needed here; reluctantly but necessary. Iluvatar realized he had to give men real choice or else his world would be free of real beauty; without risk there is no true victory and without the ability to be bad being good isn't a virtue or a choice but instead it is just predetermined. That's why Tom Bombadill had no power to undo the ring; the very notion of corruption was beyond him in the same way it is beyond a deer or a flower.
According to the closed captions, "the Valar were not allowed to take up arms against the children of Louis Vuitton."
I guess Illuvatar really loved his handbags?
According to the third theme, Melkor was an instrument of Eru. This is clearly stated in the Music of the Ainur chapter of The Silmarillion. Therefore, Eru never interferes with Melkor. Númenor is basically among the Children of Ilúvatar, and no one except Eru can interfere with them. The Ainur have no authority in this.
I heard theories that Eru help to destroy the One Ring, by losing Gollum balance and fall into the molten lava.
Eru's behavior and comments would seem to indicate Melkor is doing the job he was meant to do. Likewise with everyone else with the exception of interventions.
I think Eru dealt with Numenor in that the Numenoreans were going to attack Valinor and the Valar were not allowed to hurt the Elves or Men so Eru came to the valars rescue essentially.
But Melkor was hurting elves and men for hundreds of years. How does that make sense?
@@mtrunkello Melkor was evil and he went against Manwe so he was doing evil. The valar were forbidden from hurting humans and elves so when the numenoreans went to attack valinor eru intervened as the Valar in being obedient to Eru would not harm Erus creations, (or at least thats what I came to understand when I read the silmarillion. Melkor is technically not even considered to be Valar anymore and he was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.
I am surprised I am the only one mentioning that the Valar were forbidden from hurting Erus creations. The valar were thier guides/gods/protectors. There are only two Valar/Mair who actually transgressed from Manwes rule and then there was the one water Mair who rebelled a but when he was tempted by Melkor but he repented and returned to his loyalty to the Valar in Aman.
Does that explain things to you?
@@planes3333 yes but then Eru is responsible for the deaths of millions. The reason why the numenorians are attacking valinor is because sauron corrupted them. Sauron is there because of Melkor. Every evil that is in middle earth is because of Eru wouldnt clean up his mess which is Melkor. He intervined when the dwarfs were created because he wanted the elves to be born first but didnt intervine when melkor corrupted them and created the orks and other monsters. Ever since every death that happened is on the hands of Eru.
@@mtrunkello I disagree. I feel every death is on Melkor. Melkor is the one who rebelled and decided to weave in different music into the auindale. Eru did not do that. Eru gave free will and choice to his beings. Sauron as well began good, without evil but he was corrupted and seduced by melkor and why. Pride. Melkor and Sauron wanted to rule and create life.
You seem to know your legendarium, I have come to a different conclusion though.
lastly Eru gave most control if not almost all of it to the Valar and they were doing their best to make right all of Melkors corruption.
you are correct though Eru was responsible for sacking Numenor and the millions of lives he destroyed were his choice. However everything created and that had life came from him, he was before all else and he made time and life itself. Everything was his to begin with, he allowed the corruption of the first music but if he didnt we would not have a lotr story. Much like our world today IMHO the evil we see is a contrast to the good. With joy comes weeping and we have choice .........
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been a pleasure chatting with you, my name is Darren and I am from canada
I have read all Tolkien I think, CS lewis and doestoyesky and the silmarillions content is my favorite. My goal is to do a word for word animated trilogy of the silmarillion, I know its a pipe dream but if I had a million dollars I would do it
peace
@@planes3333 nice chatting with you too. Hope that animated triology would come one day :)
And yes i understand that if you have free will, ultimately it will come down to your decision. The reason i say Eru is responsible because he was the one who created Melkor and he didnt create him equal to his other creations. If he were created equal, the elves would have made short work of him. But even Fingolfin couldnt defeat him in their duel and he wasnt even close. So even if man and elves choose that they do not want anything from melkor and his evil ways, they couldnt get rid of him, he was just too powerful from the start. Eru let that overpowered evil run amock his children knowing they couldnt handle it by themselves because he was an Ainu and they were just elves and man. And then there were countless Maia with Melkor as well who are also not on the same level. Thats my biggest problem with Eru. Ofc this is just fiction so it doesnt have to be taken so seriously but if i think about all of the innocent and all of the people who were murdered by melkor and his armies i cannot justify saying that this evil was needed to form and strenghten the children of illuvatar. For example the elves before coming to arda were already virtuous and even now they think of those times as their golden age. What good came from thousands of years of war except suffering?
Men were always destined to inhabit Middle Earth, not Númenór. I suspect some event was always destined to take place resulting in Númenór failing and its inhabitants returning to Middle Earth.
Because Men were Eru Illuvatar's chosen children, and the Elves were more like the pets of the Valar.
Eru intervenes because he was asked to. The Valar had no authority over the children and did not want to war with Men, so when Man invaded Valinor, they called upon a higher authority to intervene.
Simple answer: The Valar called upon Eru for help with Númenor and their fleet, they never did for Morgoth
Did he ever interven when the ainur were concerned?
Apostasy was more disrespectful. Worshipping a lesser being instead of the supreme being. Like our world...
Melkor is Eru's direct offspring. Melkor was his prince in the first family. Even though he quarreled with his siblings and their offspring, it was his right to an extent. Numenorians were like children from a second marriage. Divine/royal blood, but far less granted powers and inheritance. For them to provoke and take away from the first family, that meant daddy had to lay down the law.
By killing millions?
Why did Eru allow evil or punish harshly if he's good?
= ''Hulk Hogan is nice, but in the ring he will mess you up''
I think the Valar knew their place. They did not want to fight the oncoming ships, nor have the Elves on Valinor fight the hosts of Numenor. Men are implied to be he favored children of Eru, and while the Valar do rule Arda, they know that men are beyond their jurisdiction. Even Mandos knew not the fate of Men beyond death, because they are not under his influence as the Elves are. So Eru had to intervene on behalf of the Valar.
Elves are the favourite, men are only there as side project for eru. Why do you think elves lives longer, beautiful, immune to disease, wiser, and favourite of the valars? The valar aided the elves but never helped men for the war of the ring? Numenoreans were blessed with long life because they helped the elves on the 2nd age. The valar rewarded the men the island of Numenor because they died fighting for the elves... im telling you... the elves are the favourite....
Change my mind...
@@aidtry182 nah, its implied somewhat that men get a fast pass to the timeless halls.
this is why death is a gift.
ainur & elves are stated to have their lives bound unto the end of Arda, so when its destroyed the elves are lost.
they are stuck in line while men walks right pass them to the front.
The Númenoreans Were Not Just Men, They Were The Edain, The Elf-Friends. Those Men Who Strove With The Eldar Against Morgoth In The Great Battles Of Beleriand. Not Only Were They Greatly Skilled In Battle They Had Become Hardly Indistinguishable In Likeness Or Powers From The Eldar. The Númenoreans Had Grown So Powerful By The Time Of Their Downfall, That The Blessed Realm Literally Wouldn’t Be Able To Beat Them. The Valar Like Melkor Had Extinguished Their Powers And Wills And The Eldar With The Lost Of So Many Noldor And Teleri Diminished Them Greatly. Eru Had To Intervene They Needed Him To. That’s Why He Removed Aman Completely From Arda Into The Realm Of Hidden Things So That Men Wouldn’t Find Aman Ever. If He Would’ve Just Made New Lands And Seas And Kept Aman In Arda, Man Would Just Find It Again
Sorry i am going to have to strongly disagree in the sence that Eru needed Melkor to act against him in order for his plan to play out. Or the philosophical point that tolkien would take that good needs evil to exist.
I would argue a more acurate interpretation would be that all melkors actions were imitations copies or a twisting of what was good, ie evil. That being rooted from Eru the good and from melkors twisting the evil. And Eru is telling him that no matter what you do i can take that and still turn it to my purposes for good. This going back to the biblical philicophical point that God can take any thing ment for evil and turn it around for good. Yet God is not the source for evil. The same being that Eru is not the source for evil because that would make him just as bad as Melkor. I dont think tolkien would view Eru in that light.
Because he loves sharing the gift of death with humans, and Melkor was doing a pretty good job sharing death too, so why stop him?