Fun Fact: The idea that Happy's favorite television show is Downton Abbey was at the suggestion of Jon Favreau, who is actually a big fan of the series
Yeah… I still really enjoy Iron Man 3. Like the whole “fake America’s perception of terrorism to get away with your real agenda” twist- definitely held up well this past decade.
The first time you realize that The Mandarin is a fraud and a goofball was great for a chuckle because it was so unexpected and it subverted your expectations, but on further viewings, it kinda ruins the movie because they had nowhere interesting to go after that. That only works if you have an even more interesting villain to take his place, which Iron Man 3 doesn't. It reminded me of when they killed off Snoke in Last Jedi and it blew my mind, "They're killing off the big bad in the SECOND movie??!! I can't imagine where they're going from here!!!!" Unfortunately, it soon became clear that the writers & directors didn't either 😕
@@travistotle Yeah the Trevor reveal is funny in the moment but then the rest of the film just reverts to type and Tony faces off against yet another tech villain who has a long standing grudge against Stark over some perceived slight. The initial portrayal of the Mandarin made the film seem much more interesting as it suggested Tony would confront a villain entirely outside his normal "wheelhouse" of tech villains with a previous history with Stark.
@@mikenolan73 Also, I liked the idea of Iron Man, a scifi/fantasy hero, taking on a real/current world threat. But, nah. Let it really be the guy who breaths fire cause he got his feelings hurt because he got ghosted by a billionaire😆
@@drifter4training Because Shane Black hasnt ever had an original thought. He's best known for writing a buddy cop film in the heyday of buddy cop films.
I think it was great for Tony's character arch. I think Tony couldn't have been the mentor to peter without the growth of this movie but also... Yeah like he had more character things to resolve that would have been amazing if they introduced the real Mandarin here. And although I think Ben Kingsley was hilarious here and in the ten rings, I feel like a better ending should have been a real villain that has tony basically face himself and his past.
10 years ago, I would have 100% agreed with you. Over time, and after a few rewatches, this movie is nowhere near as bad as people say it is. It's not a masterpiece or anything, but it is a good movie. And I still contend that the problem with the Mandarin twist isn't the twist itself, but the actual scene of the reveal. The twist itself is actually brilliant, but even after this movie has grown on me, I still hate the scene, and I think if the scene wasn't so poorly handled, people wouldn't have crapped on the reveal, myself included.
I think the twist and the reveal actually work pretty well. The problem I think is that Guy Pierce just feels really bland as the actual villian. If the movie gave us a character that was actually better the Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin it would have been great but Guy Pierce just felt like a step down.
I don't even think the movie is overtly all that hated, it has quite a bit of fans. It's just one of the more divisive movies in the MCU, there are people that really love it and people that hate it. I kind of have the opposite feeling to you though about the twist: I think the twist IS the problem, but the actual scene itself is pretty funny just because you don't see it coming at all. The twist itself is the problem because they didn't have anywhere interesting to go after that. If the Mandarin gave way to an even more interesting villain, people would almost universally love the movie. Instead, Guy Pearce's character is just bland, his motivations are flimsy, and he's just not compelling.
If it weren't played for a joke, then it wouldn't have gotten on so many people's nerves. If the Mandarin guy wasn't a goofball, the scene wouldn't have felt like such a slap in the face
@@officialmonarchmusic Now you make sense, I'm not over looking a bait and switch 10 years later because "Oh now it isn't so bad". As a long time Iron Man fan finally excited to see the Mandarin who turns out is just a bait and switch to a SNL skit, it's still F'n BAD. It's like a horrible prank if you ask me. Because it ruined the experience of Iron Man and the entire build up. This movie could have been memorable but now it's easy to forget.
@@Kanoog Actually I am not a comic reader and wasn't TOO bothered by it myself, but it hurt the movie. I am just pointing out part of how it is a problem. How great of a problem it is... that's up for everyone to decide for themselves
@@LATVERIAN1 As dumb as that scene was, it really showcased Kingsley’s acting talent considering how easily he can portray two different characters in the same movie.
Killian wasn't upset he didn't get investment money from Stark, he was upset Stark just blew him off completely and made him wait on the roof like a fool completely embarrassing him and making him feel worthless.
@@Lil_Valor yeah but it's still poor character motivation. Random people who go up to billionaires and successful men with ideas they have that they should invest in usually get similar or worse responses. Tony's was just extra cruel to tell the guy to go wait for him on the roof and not realizing that this particular guy was most likely going to believe him and most likely stay up there quite awhile before getting what should have been obvious from the start. That's on Tony but to decide to dedicate yourself to killing the guy is beyond too far, it's absurd. Especially since he is a successful businessman now and Tony has been through hell since then, he has no reason to not just let it go. He is arguably better off at the start of the main story than Tony so what else does he need? It's why it's hard to buy the guy as a legitimate villain. His motivation is baseless. What kind of normal guy devotes his entire life to messing you up because you obnoxiously turned his fairly sketchy business offer(his highly informal approach during Tony's leisure time isn't exactly professional) down about a decade ago
I've never had this take on the movie. I just saw it as everyone was ready to pin blame for attacks on foreign people not knowing the real terrorist was amongst us. And Killian was a perfect foil for Tony because he showed that a) that's what Tony could've been and b) how many other weapon businesses and the military were ready to step their game up
For once, I disagree. I found that the Mandarin being a fake villain *deepens* Tony's struggles and strife. Wouldn't it be easy to have one single Big Bad Mandarin who Tony could nuke and save everyone? No, it can't be that easy. The real villain was literally created by Tony's direct arrogance and sin, sin which was still a large driving factor in the events of Iron Man 1. I think that Killian being the Mandarin, while yeah it does divert the comic story, makes Tony's story complete. He didn't start a terrorist organization, he created monsters.
@@Nick-up5wvintent vs execution are two different things. This movie has a lot of flaws and ideas that aren’t conveyed well at all, the mandarin plot twist could absolutely have been done better. However, the iron man trilogy consists of Tony having to deal with the consequences of his actions, be it from his time as an arms dealer, from the hoarding of the arc reactor or in this movie, from his sheer arrogance, all of which create the villains he later has to fight. So having killian be created as the consequence of Tony’s character is perfect for this movie, focused more on Tony stark as a person than the iron man suit.
One of the wonderful aspects of the storytelling tradition is the cultural discussion that surrounds storytelling. The story often takes on a shape after the story is told. There is no good reason to tell other people what they should and shouldn't like. And there is no reason for me to complain if someone meticulously explains why they dislike something.
I would also add that the reveal wasn’t for “just a joke” it was planned out as a Gotcha!. And All Hail the King was more than Likely planned ahead of time which shows that.
@@zaczane the director, Shane Black, said in an interview that most of the one-shot is a response to audience backlash. It wouldn't have been made if not for the backlash. So I'd say it you're just pretty wrong here
Iron Man 3 has to be the most disappointing Iron Man movie, because the Mandarin is his greatest adversary and Marvel Disney completely destroyed him in order not to anger China. The villain Mandarin is to Iron Man what Lex Luthor is to Superman.
5:19 -- _"The film actually does this alot. It likes to punctuate dramatic beats with jokes to soften the blow of a--frankly--serious and mature subject matter it deals with."_ You've perfectly described almost the entire MCU in one line. It's why I don't like it as much as I used to.
If, like me, you had no idea who the Mandarin was from the comic books, IM3's treatment of him was clever and hilarious. Not to mention that Kingsly is a living legend, and this was a great example of his talents.
Didnt read the comics and still thought it was dogsh*t. The marketing made the Mandarin seem menacing and powerful. Then we find out he's just some goofy actor and the real Mandarin is Syndrome from the Incredibles.
Tony dealing with how Avengers 1 affected him is out of place in a film where a supposed dangerous terrorist is just a drunk actor and the main villain is a vengeful nerd. Instead of finding a balance between seriousness and comedy and jokes that are actually funny the MCU writers think having a few serious moments in what are otherwise bad comedies is enough.
Unpopular opinion: I actually like the reveal that the Mandarin is an actor. The reason why is because it makes Trevor and Tony foils of one another, because while Trevor is only big and important when he is set up to be something big and important, Tony is actually someone important without the suit. It is only after Tony realizes that he is still a hero without the suit that he finds the Mandarin who turns out to be nothing without any kind of protective shell around him. Though it is disappointing to comic book fans, I think it is a necessary part of the movie that contributes to showing you the actual theme of the movie, which is more about whether or not someone is/can be important on their own.
I think you're onto something here. There's something about Tony and Steve Rogers and their relationship that threads all of these movies into a single thematic arc. When Steve questioned who Tony was without his suit, and he answered, "Billionaire genius playboy philanthropist," I think Tony was well aware how hollow those things were to him. They were all expressions of his grandiosity, not his true self. The whole plot structure of The Avengers stripped away who each character thought they were, to find the hero beneath. Cap thought he was a soldier, until he had to defy orders. Tony thought the impenetrable suit meant he didn't have to risk anything to be a superhero. But if it costs nothing to be a hero, is it really heroism? You can't always cut the wire. Sometimes you have to lay down on it so others will survive. I don't think death was truly real for Tony until The Avengers. Even as a prisoner in Iron Man, I think he always assumed he'd be able to think his way out of the problem. It wasn't until his only solution was self-sacrifice that he truly faced death. And that rattled him. He finally understood what Cap faced in every battle, that he'd never truly faced before, the undeniable certainty of death. And as we know, that revelation is what he was coping with in IM3. So that's why his episode without the suit was so important. For the first time in his life, Tony was the underdog. With all his grandiosity stripped away, we can finally see who Tony the man is. And that's why, I think, it was relevant for the Mandarin to be revealed as nothing but a facade. The grandiosity without the man is just an empty suit, a fiction. It's even what Extremis was about. Aldrich Killian had transformed himself into an Iron Man suit, becoming the perverse reflection of what Tony had wished to be, an invulnerable super-being that can do anything and risk nothing. He shows Tony that vulnerability isn't a flaw, it's the thing defines heroism. A life without risks and vulnerability is the life of a coward. Tony's arc was always about taking on the responsibility of living in the world, rather than standing outside and above it. Part of that was going without the armor his wealth and genius gave him. It's, like, a metaphor or something. Anyway, thanks for this comment. I was never the biggest fan of IM3, but you gave me a knew insight into it.
@@natereath4966 Yeah, I think way too much about this kind of thing. It drives my friends a little nuts, so I come here and dump it on you people. But I'm just glad to find fellow geeks who also get way too into it.
@@rottensquid kinda the same with me, I want to talk about this stuff with people but there really isn't a conversation where this would come up. and it just seems weird to go up to someone and be like "Iron man 3 is actually a pretty good movie and here's why." You just can't do that without sounding like you're reading the title of a watchmojo video.
@@natereath4966 It's true. I used to be able to have these convos with my professional nerd friends at comics shows, but covid put the kobash on that for while. And anyway, you'd be surprised how pros can be as biased and reactionary as anyone. We try to be objective, but sooner or later, it's always "here's how I would have done it." And that's the worst reason not to like something you didn't make.
I feel that Iron Man 3 was a huge missed opportunity. They should have done a bit on "The Demon in a Bottle" storyline and have his PTSD drive him to being a full blown alcoholic as he deals with the trauma. Disney would never show one their heroes be addicted to any drugs because they're heroes. But I'd argue that's exactly why it SHOULD be shown. To show, these people are human, that they're not even perfect (just like us), and to show the terrible price that addiction can take on you, friends and family. A real teachable moment was lost. Robert Downey Jr. had his own battles with addiction, so he is a great person to portray it. It allows for wonderful real acting moments. And like most of us, we see Tony Stark's biggest enemy isn't the Mandarin, but himself. If he becomes an addict it robs him of his ability to effectively use the suit, it strips away his genius, destroys his confidence, and you see a pathetic man in need of help. It's a more memorable, and better villain than old hot hands. The only villain to defeat Tony is Tony. Sure, you can have the a big bad to defeat at the end (it is a Marvel movie after all) but the real villain would ne the one he already defeated. We didn't need a scifi bullshit techno virus killing him, we didn't need hot hands McGee, and we didn't need a British fake terrorist. We needed something real. We needed something that took everything away from him, without him realizing it. We needed... the demon in a bottle.
I personally really loved the movie because it was the first IM movie that really focused on Tony as a character/human being instead of Iron Man taking the limelight. It really built 'his' character. That being said, I can totally understand the flaws and the subverted big reveal that pissed off the comic book fans even if I personally don't mind it
I'm a "comic fan" and can support what they were ATTEMPTING to do. That said they got cold feet and chickened out. Instead of addressing a compelling and adult topic they through in corny Marvel humor and pretended the actual topic was no longer important by having a goofy and non-satisfying 3rd act. A "comic fan" can appreciate the set up, but it has to deliver on the execution; which, ultimately, it failed to capitalize on.
Ironman 3 is just above Thor:The Dark World... at second bottom. And the problem is not the Mandarin... the problem is the "giant cgi army" of empty Ironman suits all over the place doing battle with zero stakes. Not to mention how fragile they were all made to seem.
Oh god yes. The final battle is terrible, and the suits are made to look like they're made of tinfoil instead of steel. The Mandarin twist is the best part of the entire film.
I agree with how twist affects the third act in general but I absolutely adore the twist itself. Mandarin in his original comic depiction is a terribly aged villain with serious racist prejudices. The white American play-for-the-cameras guy being the actual villain with an agenda only ages better as the years go by. And Tony's internal conflicts and emotional struggle still hold up in my opinion, especially considering Tony's entire arc in MCU. And Ben Kingsley is just so good as Trevor. Great video as always though, love to see different takes!
But that’s the thing, they pulled off the character without the racist prejudices before they turned him into a punchline. If that were the case where they felt he is too much of a stereotype, then they shouldn’t have used his character at all.
I believe the Ten Rings is the problem. The Ten Rings terrorist organization was established in the first Iron Man movie. And I bet you that any comics fans wanted actual Ten Rings with mystical powers, and a villain that uses them. When they used the name Mandarin without any of that, it signaled wasted narrative potential. At least in that sense All Hail The King and Shang-Chi did good on it. And to a degree the Avengers tie-in comic by using the Ten Rings as the excuse for War Machine not appearing in the Avengers movie.
Mandarin is Iron Man's nemesis in the comics. Also I don't think he has a big spotlight. Instead of having Ghost as the main villain in Iron Man VR, why not use The Mandarin.
The twist would've worked 10 times better if Killian wasn't so underwhelming as a villain. Nothing against the actor but Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin was CHILLING. Like Heath Ledger's Joker good! And they bait and switch this terrifying presence that invokes the fear of terrorism for a business man with dragon tattoos
I remember playing Marvel Ultimate Alliance, and discovering the Mandarin villain - and all his power and lore. The 10 rings of power, the giant mech Ultimo, and being Stark's no.1 villain - described as having imprisoned him so many times that he started to forward his mail there. So when he was announced as the villain for IM3 - I was really hyped. I wanted to see Iron Man face off against his greatest personal threat, with powers he couldn't understand, and the personal conflicts such a villain would create, especially if they let him live on afterwards. The first half of the film, as you stated, really added into it. He was intimidating- the idea of him coming for Tony's home, just because he could, was powerful. But the twist takes that all away, as if making fun of the fans of that villain. Not only that, but takes away the momentum for the rest of the film AND undermines the cool scenes from the beginning. There are some great ideas in the film, but I can't bring myself to even rewatch it. Had the potential to be the best Iron Man, but easily my worst. Even with Shang chi; Mandarin was okay, a downgrade from his comic roots, but well portrayed otherwise. But it didn't matter because his archnemesis was dead, and they killed him off at the end anyway...
I agree with this 💯; Killian would’ve made a much more surprising mini boss to get in Stark’s way, leaving “The Mandarin” to escape, perhaps even for a future movie?
I should probably rewatch Ironman 3. I was 14 last time I really sat down to watch it, now I’m 19 and I’ve gone through so much in that time span lol. I think I’ll be able to appreciate the introspectiveness, fun action, and stellar performances more.
I agree with this video, and Id also add that Tony’s character arc in this feels incomplete. We see him as a man without a suit who suffers from PTSD/anxiety after nearly dying. He’s drawn into a repressive, solitary shell and continues building his suits so that he can feel like he has control over his life. The movie doesnt really have him grow for this. The “turning point” for him is when the little boy tells him to just build something. So he does. And then he somehow overcomes his anxiety and PTSD and infiltrates the facility, and then still ends up calling and using all of his suits anyways. There’s no development, and his arc ends where it started. The problem the movie posits is that Tony Stark realizes that even his fancy suits dont make him invincible, and he feels traumatized and anxious in the aftermath of Avengers. And the solution it gives for his character is to just… build more stuff.
Great video! I think they should have had it as the Mandarin as the main villain but Aldrich Killian as a character who was turned to use his science for evil by the mandarin after being scorned by Tony, but then gets redeemed
I read this movie as a critique of the American military industrial complex of manufactured threat to fight unjustified war for profits. The Mandarin persona and cooping of the Ten Ring is used as a way to generate public sentiment for military actions. Sure the conflict ended up as a personal beef, but it still doesn't take away from this interpretation.
I mostly agree. However, the issue is that with this movie (and many other MCU movies, particularly the Iron Man ones) they dance around the complex implications of the themes and dont see them through to a compelling point. They vaguely gesture towards something interesting and valid, but then comfortably evade having to make a statement or change any perspectives on those themes. Take for example Iron Man 1, where Tony decides to stop manufacturing arms and stop war profiteering. When he attempts to do so, his business partner effectively shuts him out of the business and attempts to kill him. The movie sets up for this commentary on how the military industrial complex is such a depressingly integral function of sustaining capitalism, and how endless war is needed to sustain this. Tony is literally earning money off of people’s deaths. Yet the movie then reduces these ideas down to two men in armor fighting each other. Tony never reflects on arms manufacturing and the ethics of the military industrial complex- his concern with the situation is as superficial as “the bad guys are using my weapons” without wondering why they are bad guys or how weapons production might exacerbate war as a whole.
I always felt the casting of Ben Kingsley as "the Mandarin" was metatextual foreshadowing. Everything we saw of the Mandarin was a mishmash of different cultures, made to capitalize on post 9/11 fears, both in-universe and out. The biggest clue something was up was the fact that a character whose name is a synonym for Chinese was played by an English actor.
This is honestly my biggest problem with the MCU. Too many times when I want to care about the story or characters, Marvel stops everything to remind me that this is all a joke. If Marvel doesn’t care, then why should I care?
Iron Man 3 is awesome...Its a wildly misunderstood movie that deals with real themes like the military industrial complex and Americas false/created perceptions of international terrorism...one of the better Marvel movies in my opinion.
This movie in short felt like it was trying to pull a knock off attempt at watchmen. Being “hyper aware” of American history and having an “actually competent” villain without putting in any effort to finish those plot points or characters
You put into words the feelings I had about the movie. It did have great things but that reveal and last part really made it a bad movie in my eyes since the first time after watching it.
As bold as it sounds, I’d argue Iron Man Armored Adventures provided an excellent adaptation of the mandarin that differed greatly from the source material. Armored Adventures Gene Kahn was vastly different, a kid from a long line of great khans, focusing on the legacy of the ten rings and living up to the mantra of the mandarin. He outfoxed the heroes on several occasions, and him gathering the ten rings was an excellent looming threat building up more and more as he grew stronger and stronger. Yet even as he became more and more evil, he still had his moments of honor and humanity like keeping his end of the bargain with teleporting Tony and Howard out of that dimension and being hesitant to fight Pepper when she faced off against him. Changes to the source material are fine, you just have to make sure they enhance the story and don’t blatantly disrespect the character your adapting
The Mandarin's build up didn't amount to nothing because of that scene. Everything that we thought the Mandarin was doing, and everything he believed was actually just Aldrich Killian's actions and beliefs. Effectively the scene reveals that Trevor was just the face of the Mandarin and the actual Mandarin was Killian. Honestly I think the reveal was supposed to show that a terrorist isn't always the arab-looking guy with the beard, but it could be the white guy with all the money.
IM3 didn't bother me because I didn't know much about the Mandarin, so I enjoyed the twist. But I do understand those fans who were bothered by it. I'm a fan of Batman, so I'd be angry too if they pulled the same twist with Joker.
I mean, I'm all for variations. Heath Ledger's Joker is strikingly different than anything we've seen in comics, but that was his greatest strength, that he rebuilt the character from the ground up, rather than copying something already formed. But yeah, the way the Mandarin was built here was a tragic mistake that undercut the whole film, and the character. I get what they were going for. Had Ben Kingsley's Mandarin been what he seemed, he would have been a one-dimensional villain, a reductionist take on Osama Bin Laden, without enough insight into the world that creates a figure like Bin Laden. But turning a real-world villain like that into a comic book supervillain opens up a huge can of worms, the biggest, fattest one being bigotry against anyone remotely Muslim. Maybe a movie could have handled that with sensitivity, but not this movie. So I totally understand the choice of making this Mandarin a staged character designed around American fear and prejudice. But the choice of turning him into Trevor Slattery was the slap in the face, undercutting all he tension of the film so far with a cheap joke. And replacing Ben Kingsley's impressive supervillain with Guy Pierce's routine one took the wind from the movie's sails. Aldrich Killian, nerdy underdog turned handsome monster, is about as rote as you can get. And we get no insight into his actual character. He's just the answer to the mystery, the jack of clubs when we were expecting the king of hearts. His reveal didn't feel meaningful, just the needless elaboration of a mediocre story that we thought was going somewhere more interesting.
I hated "HATED" this film. I specifically went to the theaters to see Ben Kingsley portray Iron Man's greatest foe. Watching Kingsley, in the trailers, I was totally hyped. Things were going okay, until this scene. WTF??? Not only did I feel betrayed, as a fan & movie-goer, but they totally f**ked up one of Marvel's great super-villains. What a waste of time, money, and life.
Personally, I don't think the Mandarin reveal makes everything "not matter," instead it serves to show that we never truly know who's pulling the strings, thereby adding to the whole discussion on American politics. Everyone *thinks* the Mandarin is Trevor Slattery, but he's really Killian, who's actually using the title of Wenwu. It's not an abandonment of that theme, but rather another perspective on it.
So the problem you pointed out is essentially the issue faced by Thor as well? Interjecting comedy everytime there's a serious scene or everytime they're on the cusp of something too deep/heavy.
Shane Black + RDJ = Most of RDJ's best performances. Always love that combo. Despite some weak elements, it was all about Tony's overall character arc. And it was beautiful. I'm also a bit of a Guy Ritchie fan too and I liked his "Nutty Professor" or "Catwoman" type transformation. But yeah, it did all get rather silly towards the end. But the Iron Man suits were thoroughly enjoyable. All the Iron Man movies have major flaws, purely because they concentrate a lot on Stark's personal journey. Which thankfully ended amazingly well. So, yeah, we can bitch about the whole first few phases of these Marvel movies lacking certain ingredients. But ultimately? By the end of End Game, most supporters were delighted with the end of the arcs with the likes of Iron Man, Captain America and Thanos. You don't get that often with major franchises. Where most fans are satisfied with the big conclusion. Where it wasn't deemed too cheesy, not epic enough or lacking depth or clarity with most of the characters. I find it really hard to knock that journey as a whole. We may never see a success like it again in our lifetimes. For at Marvel, for me, the writing has taken a real nosedive of late. Nowhere near the character work it had before. I have a lot of faith in James Gunn as a creator. I don't have so much faith in the Warner Bros producer structure that like to intervene and re-edit movies on a whim days before release. Like some mental Vince McMahon.
I remember being in a catatonic rage when the reveal scene was playing in the theater. Also this was where Marvel started doing that constant deflating tension maneuver they've become known for. It was annoying then and it only became less tolerable as time went on.
The idea of an undermining twist might have been a fun idea to play around with in Iron Man 2. However, undercutting the Mandarin, the themes of war and weaponry and terrorism, and the serious dramatic tension that had been building was an awful idea. People like saving the big stakes for the final film of the trilogy (see Ragnarok, Civil War, No Way Home, Infinity War/Endgame, etc…).
Nah, "I am the Mandarin! " makes sense to me. Kilian had that whole "anonymity makes me invincible" speech and then finally his ego takes over and he's vulnerable and whups bye
I still remember Jon Faveau saying that he wanted to save The Mandarin for the 3rd film much like how the OG Star Wars trilogy saved The Emperor for the third movie. God..imagine if he was that level of badass. And no, Wenwu did not redeem the character. Just because he was an interesting character it does not mean he was a remotely good Mandarin.
I’m one of those guys who liked the Mandarin twist. I grew up reading vintage comics and thought the Mandarin was kinda lame, so to me that reveal was real funny. Yet, I still think the movie isn’t good. I just hated the way Extremis was treated with all those lame guys spitting fire from their mouth looking all silly… as if I was watching Green Lantern, of Fantastic Four, or some other mediocre superhero movie. Splinter Cell / James Bond Tony Stark scenes were cool though, and I really liked his misadventures in a small town with that little boy - so much Spielberg vibes.
As I recall, the bit at the end with Pepper Potts suddenly wiping the floor with the bad guys was pretty damned funny, and ragingly woke to the point of being cartoonishly exaggerated.
To say that the mandarin scenes in the first half doesn’t matter is being disingenuous. The whole point is he is a false icon for the people to look for while Kilian does his stuff behind the scenes.
I have to disagree with this assessment. Not in terms of experience, but in terms of what the film is communicating. The film is clearly pointing out that these conflicts seen as far away and frictional between differing cultures, are actually the product of internal conflicts suggesting that such conflict is a manufactured motivation to fuel personal rivalries. Consequently, this implies Tony's biggest sins are of his own direct involvement, as opposed to the backlash from structural friction between conflicted cultures. As a result, the reveal that the mandarin is little more that a smoke-show, with it's resulting disappointment, indicates to the viewer that Tony's problem to solve was never terrorism, but fighting those who would fuel terrorism for their own ends. A much more measured response to the conflict, than to simply beat a figure head of terror to become a stereotypical white-saviour trope. This is to say that the film tells us not to focus our ire at foreign terrorists; we don't even know if they exist, but we do know locally there are people who would exploit others to get what they want, even if all they want is to settle a petty grudge from years past.
I hate the twist but mostly because how good they did at selling The Mandarin. He looked like a real threat. Once they played it off as a joke. Nothing was threatening for the rest of the movie. It deflated the movie which is a shame because Tony character story line is really good.
I like the twist. I think it drives home the point that we need to look past the foreign boogyman and closer to our own shores when searching for our real enemies. I think they were going to make Rebecca Hall's character as the real villain, before someone decided that no one buys girl toys, but Guy Pearce becoming the true villain because of Tony's hubris and attitude is solid storytelling.
Sounds to me like the real problem was that Ben Kingsley was a little too good as the setup for the joke, and the punchline was therefore a huge letdown.
For me, the bigger issue was that this kind of wrapped up a good bit of Tony’s story, but they had to kinda walk a lot of it back so that he could continue in other movies, and get a later wrap up in Endgame (albeit a better and more final wrap up) Between this and the fact that Slattery-Mandarin didn’t matter, the movie rings sort of hollow in the long run
I'm afraid I don't really agree with this, I didn't love 3 but I have never read a comic book so I have nothing invested and it was fine. The reveal made me laugh. Ironman 2 on the other hand was absolutely dreadful.
I disagree, wholeheartedly. I probably might have thought likewise at the time, but I was wrong then, as this video is now. The reveal makes the film. The fact that The Big Bad Final Boss is just disappointing old Killian is the point. This might be the only MCU film Scorcese would feel isn’t your standard theme park ride ending in a blue sky beam. I didn’t like it at the time, but it will probably stand out in the long run as one of the better MCU films, precisely for all the reasons being objected to here.
I really enjoyed the movie, but saw it super late from when it came out. As I was watching it, I was thinking to myself why everyone hated it. Then the reveal happened, and it upset me. Not because I didn't like the movie, but because of all the build up. You hit it right on the head.
The villain was a complete joke, The Mandarin is supposed to be Iron Man’s joker, his green goblin, but they treated it as a complete joke, and the humor was just terrible which would be a major issue going forward
I just watched a portion of Iron Man 3 again last night and I still think it's high on the list of best MCU movies, especially one of the best for handling the comedown from a recent Avengers movie. The PTSD Tony had from New York, the variety of suits, him forming a bond with Harley, and other character performances make it a good movie, and I enjoyed the twist with the Mandarin being invented as propagand, although I could do without Killian calling himself the true Mandarin and leaving it as a myth. I'd critique that there is a whole lot going on and it really makes it into a comic book-level of action, and one thing that would be divisive is that the villain here is one that Tony created, which became a trope for too many more movies (Mysterio, Ultron, etc.) but this was one of the earlier times it happened (and chronologically the first time because of the flashback), so that's not a big issue.
It would have been better if Aldrich was successful in getting funding from stark industries. Then, the whole "creating demons" thing would've been reinforced. Pepper's approval of AIM funding, then retribution via the final blow is earned. Aldrich also could've been the next in line of iron man tech villains that have been enabled by stark industries itself. Stane, Vanko, Killian, Ultron, and even Misterio could have all had a common thread amongst them. All used stark-tech to pursue their agendas. That thread would make the 'fake out' that it was Aldrich the whole time, less of a detriment to the film because, as the audience, we would have been conditioned a bit to know by then that stark industries is a fertile resource for villainy.
Yes! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 the Mandarin was supposed to a mental villain who exposed Stark’s hypocrisy of his contributions to the war effort. The fact that the movie made it look like the Mandarin was recruiting wounded soldiers was scary. I was beyond angry when I realized that more than half of the movie didn’t matter. Ben Kingsley’s Mandarin villain could have been iconic 🔥
The Mandarin actually was recruiting wounded soldiers and actually does expose Stark’s hypocrisy. Your problem here is that the Mandarin was played by Guy Pearce and wasn't some Fu Manchu kind of character. The entirety of the movie matters.
@@Carabas72 You’re right, he was actually recruiting. But I have no problem if it was Guy Pearce or someone else playing the mandarin. I dont want a fu Manchu caricature cuz that’s gross. my problem is the emotional whiplash that the villain was not who he was and the stakes didn’t matter. The villain was once again another tech villain ugh! I was hoping to see a villain who Iron Man couldn’t just easily punch his way through. Initially the movie looked promising like a battle of ideas, then it turned out to be another smash em cash em Disney movie.
@@bnkumar8836 The Mandarin is a tech villain. His rings haven't been magic in ages. Also, Killian was not a villain Tony could just punch. That's not how it went in the movie. The Mandarin in the comics on the other hand, very punchable, usually. I am not really getting what you wanted out of this that wasn't in the movie. A movie that does not have any kind of plot twist? good luck with that.
Couldn't agree more with this assessment. Turning Ben Kingsley into essentially a comedic, drunk punchline was borderline offensive. I was TOTALLY buying into him as this dark, terrifying antagonist who was almost an existential-level threat. To dump the build-up the way they did and replace him with Aldrich "Gimme Money" Killian was inexcusably poor script writing and a waste of true cinematic talent. That switcheroo and re-frame made Iron Man 3 - in my mind - the worst of any Marvel movie with Iron Man in it. I can't even bring myself to watch it anymore.
I agree that the fake Mandarin was kinda lame, but it gave some weird dynamicy to the film, because in the first one terrorists are the bad guys, but Obadiah was the Villain. So if theMandarin was real, it would just be the first movie a bit different.
I got you. Iron Man 3 and it's portrayal of the mental anguish of an anxiety/panic attack (difficult things, but they look similar) was very accurate and was nice to have in such a major movie. It's my favorite Iron Man movie for it.
5:52 is the BEST part of this vid! That's the point I've been trying to make about the MCU as a whole, that while something can still be funny and well executed, it kills the potential for what the project should have been. I think of this with Better Call Saul becoming too dry and dramatic for its own good. it may be well executed, but it breaks a promise and character arc and warps it into something it certainly was never meant to be
On the one hand, a well-built opponent is sacrificed for a joke. Which is a fairly typical move for Shane Black, who likes to turn upside down the conventions and stereotypes he uses. But on the other hand, the fact that Mandarian turns out to be a fake is a commentary on the commercialization and joyful celebration of war we see in the film. War Machine turns into a colorful symbol, and Tony Stark has to shed his armor and deal with adversity on his own, without flashy gadgets. Comic book nostalgia and naiveté are torn away like a veil, and their place is taken by (pseudo) realism. Which doesn't change the fact that the ending is weak. But this is something Marvel has problems with in almost every movie :(
Loved this video, these were exactly my problems with Iron Man 3 and why I personally don't enjoy it. And I didn't even follow the comics. Yes I get the point of the twist, but I just don't think they pulled it off. If the true villain was more interesting I probably could have been sold on it, but he wasn't to me, which made it just disappointing.
Fun Fact: The idea that Happy's favorite television show is Downton Abbey was at the suggestion of Jon Favreau, who is actually a big fan of the series
I also appreciate it cause I’m also a Downton Abbey fan
Jon Favreau should've suggested to the director on how to make a good Iron Man movie, would much rather prefer that.
Yeah… I still really enjoy Iron Man 3. Like the whole “fake America’s perception of terrorism to get away with your real agenda” twist- definitely held up well this past decade.
Maybe in a serious film. Not one messing with fans.
It could have been really good if it had been executed well... which it was not.
i somehow agree with all these comments
Ok well this ain't a fucking Michael Moore movie bruh
But what about the actual terrorism that is out there? Not just the fake perception of it
Now that the Mandarin was a real character in the MCU, it’s disappointing that Tony never had to fight him
Maybe we'll see it in what if
Yet we never saw it.
The real Mandarin in Shang Chi sucked. Kingsley's Mandarin would have been a way better villain if real
@@thehahvokexperience he was great adaptation without racism from comics
shame he never fought Tony
The second trailer where it seemed the villain would actually be intimidating and unhinged was by far the best part of the film.
Same with age of ultron lol
The first time you realize that The Mandarin is a fraud and a goofball was great for a chuckle because it was so unexpected and it subverted your expectations, but on further viewings, it kinda ruins the movie because they had nowhere interesting to go after that. That only works if you have an even more interesting villain to take his place, which Iron Man 3 doesn't.
It reminded me of when they killed off Snoke in Last Jedi and it blew my mind, "They're killing off the big bad in the SECOND movie??!! I can't imagine where they're going from here!!!!" Unfortunately, it soon became clear that the writers & directors didn't either 😕
@@travistotle Yeah the Trevor reveal is funny in the moment but then the rest of the film just reverts to type and Tony faces off against yet another tech villain who has a long standing grudge against Stark over some perceived slight. The initial portrayal of the Mandarin made the film seem much more interesting as it suggested Tony would confront a villain entirely outside his normal "wheelhouse" of tech villains with a previous history with Stark.
@@travistotle based
@@mikenolan73 Also, I liked the idea of Iron Man, a scifi/fantasy hero, taking on a real/current world threat. But, nah. Let it really be the guy who breaths fire cause he got his feelings hurt because he got ghosted by a billionaire😆
it's the plot from incredibles lol. kid gets rejected and is obsessed with revenge against a superhero that denied him.
The main difference is Incrediboy worked and he worked well, this bait and switch for Iron Man is just god aweful hahah.
And also kinda plots from dark knight rises and lethal weapon..
Also exact same plot for Mysterio in Spiderman Far from home, even did the big unveil 🙄
@@drifter4training Because Shane Black hasnt ever had an original thought. He's best known for writing a buddy cop film in the heyday of buddy cop films.
@@anon4854 He didn't write 'a' buddy cop movie, he wrote 'the' buddy cop movie
The CG in the early Marvel movies is awesome
It’s really weird and almost disappointing that the fx have only gotten worse over time, but the budget and box office steadily increases...
Back when you'd swear if you were on set you'd be able to reach over and touch the Iron Man costumes because they looked so real.
@@quietman208 box office increases are a thing of the past if they keep in this direction, Riri, America, etc.
@@zachryder3150 Some of them were I think
I’m so sick of obvious arena sized green screens. It makes the acting suffer too.
I think it was great for Tony's character arch. I think Tony couldn't have been the mentor to peter without the growth of this movie but also... Yeah like he had more character things to resolve that would have been amazing if they introduced the real Mandarin here. And although I think Ben Kingsley was hilarious here and in the ten rings, I feel like a better ending should have been a real villain that has tony basically face himself and his past.
10 years ago, I would have 100% agreed with you. Over time, and after a few rewatches, this movie is nowhere near as bad as people say it is. It's not a masterpiece or anything, but it is a good movie. And I still contend that the problem with the Mandarin twist isn't the twist itself, but the actual scene of the reveal. The twist itself is actually brilliant, but even after this movie has grown on me, I still hate the scene, and I think if the scene wasn't so poorly handled, people wouldn't have crapped on the reveal, myself included.
I think the twist and the reveal actually work pretty well. The problem I think is that Guy Pierce just feels really bland as the actual villian. If the movie gave us a character that was actually better the Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin it would have been great but Guy Pierce just felt like a step down.
I don't even think the movie is overtly all that hated, it has quite a bit of fans. It's just one of the more divisive movies in the MCU, there are people that really love it and people that hate it. I kind of have the opposite feeling to you though about the twist: I think the twist IS the problem, but the actual scene itself is pretty funny just because you don't see it coming at all. The twist itself is the problem because they didn't have anywhere interesting to go after that. If the Mandarin gave way to an even more interesting villain, people would almost universally love the movie. Instead, Guy Pearce's character is just bland, his motivations are flimsy, and he's just not compelling.
If it weren't played for a joke, then it wouldn't have gotten on so many people's nerves. If the Mandarin guy wasn't a goofball, the scene wouldn't have felt like such a slap in the face
@@officialmonarchmusic Now you make sense, I'm not over looking a bait and switch 10 years later because "Oh now it isn't so bad". As a long time Iron Man fan finally excited to see the Mandarin who turns out is just a bait and switch to a SNL skit, it's still F'n BAD. It's like a horrible prank if you ask me. Because it ruined the experience of Iron Man and the entire build up. This movie could have been memorable but now it's easy to forget.
@@Kanoog Actually I am not a comic reader and wasn't TOO bothered by it myself, but it hurt the movie. I am just pointing out part of how it is a problem. How great of a problem it is... that's up for everyone to decide for themselves
Ben Kingsley was simply incredible in this movie.
He was until this STUPID scene spoiled it.
@@LATVERIAN1 As dumb as that scene was, it really showcased Kingsley’s acting talent considering how easily he can portray two different characters in the same movie.
Killian wasn't upset he didn't get investment money from Stark, he was upset Stark just blew him off completely and made him wait on the roof like a fool completely embarrassing him and making him feel worthless.
So.....? He should have gotten over that by now
It's not really that big a deal
@@chideraalexanderdex547 what may not be deemed as a big deal to you could mean everything to another person
Bruh he never took the official appointment with Tony Stark, he just met him at the party. Lol
@@Lil_Valor yeah but it's still poor character motivation. Random people who go up to billionaires and successful men with ideas they have that they should invest in usually get similar or worse responses. Tony's was just extra cruel to tell the guy to go wait for him on the roof and not realizing that this particular guy was most likely going to believe him and most likely stay up there quite awhile before getting what should have been obvious from the start. That's on Tony but to decide to dedicate yourself to killing the guy is beyond too far, it's absurd. Especially since he is a successful businessman now and Tony has been through hell since then, he has no reason to not just let it go. He is arguably better off at the start of the main story than Tony so what else does he need? It's why it's hard to buy the guy as a legitimate villain. His motivation is baseless. What kind of normal guy devotes his entire life to messing you up because you obnoxiously turned his fairly sketchy business offer(his highly informal approach during Tony's leisure time isn't exactly professional) down about a decade ago
@@shripadreddy4852 exactly
I've never had this take on the movie. I just saw it as everyone was ready to pin blame for attacks on foreign people not knowing the real terrorist was amongst us. And Killian was a perfect foil for Tony because he showed that a) that's what Tony could've been and b) how many other weapon businesses and the military were ready to step their game up
For once, I disagree. I found that the Mandarin being a fake villain *deepens* Tony's struggles and strife. Wouldn't it be easy to have one single Big Bad Mandarin who Tony could nuke and save everyone?
No, it can't be that easy. The real villain was literally created by Tony's direct arrogance and sin, sin which was still a large driving factor in the events of Iron Man 1.
I think that Killian being the Mandarin, while yeah it does divert the comic story, makes Tony's story complete. He didn't start a terrorist organization, he created monsters.
That's what they were going for. However that's NOT what was delivered.
@@Nick-up5wvintent vs execution are two different things.
This movie has a lot of flaws and ideas that aren’t conveyed well at all, the mandarin plot twist could absolutely have been done better.
However, the iron man trilogy consists of Tony having to deal with the consequences of his actions, be it from his time as an arms dealer, from the hoarding of the arc reactor or in this movie, from his sheer arrogance, all of which create the villains he later has to fight.
So having killian be created as the consequence of Tony’s character is perfect for this movie, focused more on Tony stark as a person than the iron man suit.
This is excellent work. I love that you wrapped it up in support of the people who loved this film despite its flaws.
One of the wonderful aspects of the storytelling tradition is the cultural discussion that surrounds storytelling. The story often takes on a shape after the story is told.
There is no good reason to tell other people what they should and shouldn't like.
And there is no reason for me to complain if someone meticulously explains why they dislike something.
I still love *normal* man 3. It drove home it's not the suit it's the man.
Iron Man 3 was amazing, it perfectly showed Tony was Iron man not just the suit. And that reveal was for the best seeing what happened with Shang Chi
Amazingly boring.
I would also add that the reveal wasn’t for “just a joke” it was planned out as a Gotcha!. And All Hail the King was more than Likely planned ahead of time which shows that.
@@zaczane the director, Shane Black, said in an interview that most of the one-shot is a response to audience backlash. It wouldn't have been made if not for the backlash. So I'd say it you're just pretty wrong here
@@ryanhatesgirls oh okay well I never saw that interview. And if so that’s sad because it worked so well either way.
It was mid when I first saw it in theaters. But as the years go by, I consider it as an underrated MCU gem.
Iron Man 3 has to be the most disappointing Iron Man movie, because the Mandarin is his greatest adversary and Marvel Disney completely destroyed him in order not to anger China. The villain Mandarin is to Iron Man what Lex Luthor is to Superman.
5:19 -- _"The film actually does this alot. It likes to punctuate dramatic beats with jokes to soften the blow of a--frankly--serious and mature subject matter it deals with."_
You've perfectly described almost the entire MCU in one line.
It's why I don't like it as much as I used to.
If, like me, you had no idea who the Mandarin was from the comic books, IM3's treatment of him was clever and hilarious. Not to mention that Kingsly is a living legend, and this was a great example of his talents.
@legostuds680 it was great in isolation and disconnected from the film
Didnt read the comics and still thought it was dogsh*t. The marketing made the Mandarin seem menacing and powerful. Then we find out he's just some goofy actor and the real Mandarin is Syndrome from the Incredibles.
@@anon4854 lol yeah, cuz its a plot twist
@@idontknow5038 Well plot twists exist to subvert the viewers expectations. And it sure subverted my expectations of an interesting villain.
@@anon4854 it probably could have been written better yeah but since i wasnt there for a mandarin movie i was okay with it
Absolutely love Iron Man 3. Total fun rompfest with a heart and appeal to subversion. Love it
Tony dealing with how Avengers 1 affected him is out of place in a film where a supposed dangerous terrorist is just a drunk actor and the main villain is a vengeful nerd. Instead of finding a balance between seriousness and comedy and jokes that are actually funny the MCU writers think having a few serious moments in what are otherwise bad comedies is enough.
Unpopular opinion: I actually like the reveal that the Mandarin is an actor. The reason why is because it makes Trevor and Tony foils of one another, because while Trevor is only big and important when he is set up to be something big and important, Tony is actually someone important without the suit. It is only after Tony realizes that he is still a hero without the suit that he finds the Mandarin who turns out to be nothing without any kind of protective shell around him. Though it is disappointing to comic book fans, I think it is a necessary part of the movie that contributes to showing you the actual theme of the movie, which is more about whether or not someone is/can be important on their own.
I think you're onto something here.
There's something about Tony and Steve Rogers and their relationship that threads all of these movies into a single thematic arc. When Steve questioned who Tony was without his suit, and he answered, "Billionaire genius playboy philanthropist," I think Tony was well aware how hollow those things were to him. They were all expressions of his grandiosity, not his true self.
The whole plot structure of The Avengers stripped away who each character thought they were, to find the hero beneath. Cap thought he was a soldier, until he had to defy orders. Tony thought the impenetrable suit meant he didn't have to risk anything to be a superhero. But if it costs nothing to be a hero, is it really heroism? You can't always cut the wire. Sometimes you have to lay down on it so others will survive.
I don't think death was truly real for Tony until The Avengers. Even as a prisoner in Iron Man, I think he always assumed he'd be able to think his way out of the problem. It wasn't until his only solution was self-sacrifice that he truly faced death. And that rattled him. He finally understood what Cap faced in every battle, that he'd never truly faced before, the undeniable certainty of death. And as we know, that revelation is what he was coping with in IM3.
So that's why his episode without the suit was so important. For the first time in his life, Tony was the underdog. With all his grandiosity stripped away, we can finally see who Tony the man is. And that's why, I think, it was relevant for the Mandarin to be revealed as nothing but a facade. The grandiosity without the man is just an empty suit, a fiction.
It's even what Extremis was about. Aldrich Killian had transformed himself into an Iron Man suit, becoming the perverse reflection of what Tony had wished to be, an invulnerable super-being that can do anything and risk nothing. He shows Tony that vulnerability isn't a flaw, it's the thing defines heroism. A life without risks and vulnerability is the life of a coward.
Tony's arc was always about taking on the responsibility of living in the world, rather than standing outside and above it. Part of that was going without the armor his wealth and genius gave him. It's, like, a metaphor or something.
Anyway, thanks for this comment. I was never the biggest fan of IM3, but you gave me a knew insight into it.
@@rottensquid wow.....
You said that much better than me.
@@natereath4966 Yeah, I think way too much about this kind of thing. It drives my friends a little nuts, so I come here and dump it on you people. But I'm just glad to find fellow geeks who also get way too into it.
@@rottensquid kinda the same with me, I want to talk about this stuff with people but there really isn't a conversation where this would come up. and it just seems weird to go up to someone and be like "Iron man 3 is actually a pretty good movie and here's why." You just can't do that without sounding like you're reading the title of a watchmojo video.
@@natereath4966 It's true. I used to be able to have these convos with my professional nerd friends at comics shows, but covid put the kobash on that for while. And anyway, you'd be surprised how pros can be as biased and reactionary as anyone. We try to be objective, but sooner or later, it's always "here's how I would have done it." And that's the worst reason not to like something you didn't make.
I feel that Iron Man 3 was a huge missed opportunity. They should have done a bit on "The Demon in a Bottle" storyline and have his PTSD drive him to being a full blown alcoholic as he deals with the trauma. Disney would never show one their heroes be addicted to any drugs because they're heroes. But I'd argue that's exactly why it SHOULD be shown. To show, these people are human, that they're not even perfect (just like us), and to show the terrible price that addiction can take on you, friends and family. A real teachable moment was lost.
Robert Downey Jr. had his own battles with addiction, so he is a great person to portray it. It allows for wonderful real acting moments. And like most of us, we see Tony Stark's biggest enemy isn't the Mandarin, but himself. If he becomes an addict it robs him of his ability to effectively use the suit, it strips away his genius, destroys his confidence, and you see a pathetic man in need of help. It's a more memorable, and better villain than old hot hands. The only villain to defeat Tony is Tony. Sure, you can have the a big bad to defeat at the end (it is a Marvel movie after all) but the real villain would ne the one he already defeated.
We didn't need a scifi bullshit techno virus killing him, we didn't need hot hands McGee, and we didn't need a British fake terrorist. We needed something real. We needed something that took everything away from him, without him realizing it. We needed... the demon in a bottle.
Disney would have never allowed that 😒 but it would of been great to see in live action.
Iron Man 3 was the first time I realized the MCU wasn't infallible and the first big letdown of the franchise.
I personally really loved the movie because it was the first IM movie that really focused on Tony as a character/human being instead of Iron Man taking the limelight. It really built 'his' character. That being said, I can totally understand the flaws and the subverted big reveal that pissed off the comic book fans even if I personally don't mind it
I'm a "comic fan" and can support what they were ATTEMPTING to do. That said they got cold feet and chickened out. Instead of addressing a compelling and adult topic they through in corny Marvel humor and pretended the actual topic was no longer important by having a goofy and non-satisfying 3rd act. A "comic fan" can appreciate the set up, but it has to deliver on the execution; which, ultimately, it failed to capitalize on.
Ironman 3 is just above Thor:The Dark World... at second bottom. And the problem is not the Mandarin... the problem is the "giant cgi army" of empty Ironman suits all over the place doing battle with zero stakes. Not to mention how fragile they were all made to seem.
Oh god yes.
The final battle is terrible, and the suits are made to look like they're made of tinfoil instead of steel.
The Mandarin twist is the best part of the entire film.
I agree with how twist affects the third act in general but I absolutely adore the twist itself. Mandarin in his original comic depiction is a terribly aged villain with serious racist prejudices. The white American play-for-the-cameras guy being the actual villain with an agenda only ages better as the years go by. And Tony's internal conflicts and emotional struggle still hold up in my opinion, especially considering Tony's entire arc in MCU. And Ben Kingsley is just so good as Trevor.
Great video as always though, love to see different takes!
But that’s the thing, they pulled off the character without the racist prejudices before they turned him into a punchline. If that were the case where they felt he is too much of a stereotype, then they shouldn’t have used his character at all.
I believe the Ten Rings is the problem. The Ten Rings terrorist organization was established in the first Iron Man movie. And I bet you that any comics fans wanted actual Ten Rings with mystical powers, and a villain that uses them. When they used the name Mandarin without any of that, it signaled wasted narrative potential. At least in that sense All Hail The King and Shang-Chi did good on it. And to a degree the Avengers tie-in comic by using the Ten Rings as the excuse for War Machine not appearing in the Avengers movie.
Mandarin is Iron Man's nemesis in the comics. Also I don't think he has a big spotlight. Instead of having Ghost as the main villain in Iron Man VR, why not use The Mandarin.
The twist would've worked 10 times better if Killian wasn't so underwhelming as a villain. Nothing against the actor but Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin was CHILLING. Like Heath Ledger's Joker good! And they bait and switch this terrifying presence that invokes the fear of terrorism for a business man with dragon tattoos
I remember playing Marvel Ultimate Alliance, and discovering the Mandarin villain - and all his power and lore. The 10 rings of power, the giant mech Ultimo, and being Stark's no.1 villain - described as having imprisoned him so many times that he started to forward his mail there.
So when he was announced as the villain for IM3 - I was really hyped. I wanted to see Iron Man face off against his greatest personal threat, with powers he couldn't understand, and the personal conflicts such a villain would create, especially if they let him live on afterwards.
The first half of the film, as you stated, really added into it. He was intimidating- the idea of him coming for Tony's home, just because he could, was powerful.
But the twist takes that all away, as if making fun of the fans of that villain. Not only that, but takes away the momentum for the rest of the film AND undermines the cool scenes from the beginning.
There are some great ideas in the film, but I can't bring myself to even rewatch it. Had the potential to be the best Iron Man, but easily my worst.
Even with Shang chi; Mandarin was okay, a downgrade from his comic roots, but well portrayed otherwise. But it didn't matter because his archnemesis was dead, and they killed him off at the end anyway...
I agree with this 💯; Killian would’ve made a much more surprising mini boss to get in Stark’s way, leaving “The Mandarin” to escape, perhaps even for a future movie?
Love Iron Man 3. Will always be an underrated gem imo.
Amen.
Agree, my favorite of the trilogy.
💯
I should probably rewatch Ironman 3. I was 14 last time I really sat down to watch it, now I’m 19 and I’ve gone through so much in that time span lol. I think I’ll be able to appreciate the introspectiveness, fun action, and stellar performances more.
love watching your videos. keep up the good work, guys!! 👍
I agree with this video, and Id also add that Tony’s character arc in this feels incomplete. We see him as a man without a suit who suffers from PTSD/anxiety after nearly dying. He’s drawn into a repressive, solitary shell and continues building his suits so that he can feel like he has control over his life. The movie doesnt really have him grow for this. The “turning point” for him is when the little boy tells him to just build something. So he does. And then he somehow overcomes his anxiety and PTSD and infiltrates the facility, and then still ends up calling and using all of his suits anyways. There’s no development, and his arc ends where it started. The problem the movie posits is that Tony Stark realizes that even his fancy suits dont make him invincible, and he feels traumatized and anxious in the aftermath of Avengers. And the solution it gives for his character is to just… build more stuff.
Great video! I think they should have had it as the Mandarin as the main villain but Aldrich Killian as a character who was turned to use his science for evil by the mandarin after being scorned by Tony, but then gets redeemed
I read this movie as a critique of the American military industrial complex of manufactured threat to fight unjustified war for profits. The Mandarin persona and cooping of the Ten Ring is used as a way to generate public sentiment for military actions. Sure the conflict ended up as a personal beef, but it still doesn't take away from this interpretation.
I mostly agree. However, the issue is that with this movie (and many other MCU movies, particularly the Iron Man ones) they dance around the complex implications of the themes and dont see them through to a compelling point. They vaguely gesture towards something interesting and valid, but then comfortably evade having to make a statement or change any perspectives on those themes.
Take for example Iron Man 1, where Tony decides to stop manufacturing arms and stop war profiteering. When he attempts to do so, his business partner effectively shuts him out of the business and attempts to kill him. The movie sets up for this commentary on how the military industrial complex is such a depressingly integral function of sustaining capitalism, and how endless war is needed to sustain this. Tony is literally earning money off of people’s deaths. Yet the movie then reduces these ideas down to two men in armor fighting each other. Tony never reflects on arms manufacturing and the ethics of the military industrial complex- his concern with the situation is as superficial as “the bad guys are using my weapons” without wondering why they are bad guys or how weapons production might exacerbate war as a whole.
I always felt the casting of Ben Kingsley as "the Mandarin" was metatextual foreshadowing. Everything we saw of the Mandarin was a mishmash of different cultures, made to capitalize on post 9/11 fears, both in-universe and out. The biggest clue something was up was the fact that a character whose name is a synonym for Chinese was played by an English actor.
This is honestly my biggest problem with the MCU. Too many times when I want to care about the story or characters, Marvel stops everything to remind me that this is all a joke.
If Marvel doesn’t care, then why should I care?
Iron Man 3 is awesome...Its a wildly misunderstood movie that deals with real themes like the military industrial complex and Americas false/created perceptions of international terrorism...one of the better Marvel movies in my opinion.
It's theme was good. The execution not so much.
Iron Man 3 was bad? yes. But waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than anything marvel disney's been producing lately
This movie in short felt like it was trying to pull a knock off attempt at watchmen. Being “hyper aware” of American history and having an “actually competent” villain without putting in any effort to finish those plot points or characters
You put into words the feelings I had about the movie. It did have great things but that reveal and last part really made it a bad movie in my eyes since the first time after watching it.
I feel like this could have worked if Aldrich Killian was made more menacing
Iron Man 3 was awful. They used the same “lol I’m not actually in the armor” gag like 4 different times
As bold as it sounds, I’d argue Iron Man Armored Adventures provided an excellent adaptation of the mandarin that differed greatly from the source material.
Armored Adventures Gene Kahn was vastly different, a kid from a long line of great khans, focusing on the legacy of the ten rings and living up to the mantra of the mandarin.
He outfoxed the heroes on several occasions, and him gathering the ten rings was an excellent looming threat building up more and more as he grew stronger and stronger. Yet even as he became more and more evil, he still had his moments of honor and humanity like keeping his end of the bargain with teleporting Tony and Howard out of that dimension and being hesitant to fight Pepper when she faced off against him.
Changes to the source material are fine, you just have to make sure they enhance the story and don’t blatantly disrespect the character your adapting
The Mandarin's build up didn't amount to nothing because of that scene. Everything that we thought the Mandarin was doing, and everything he believed was actually just Aldrich Killian's actions and beliefs. Effectively the scene reveals that Trevor was just the face of the Mandarin and the actual Mandarin was Killian. Honestly I think the reveal was supposed to show that a terrorist isn't always the arab-looking guy with the beard, but it could be the white guy with all the money.
I hate that movie. Nobody can convince me IM2 is worse than IM3. Just pisses me off thinking about it.
IM3 didn't bother me because I didn't know much about the Mandarin, so I enjoyed the twist. But I do understand those fans who were bothered by it. I'm a fan of Batman, so I'd be angry too if they pulled the same twist with Joker.
I mean, I'm all for variations. Heath Ledger's Joker is strikingly different than anything we've seen in comics, but that was his greatest strength, that he rebuilt the character from the ground up, rather than copying something already formed. But yeah, the way the Mandarin was built here was a tragic mistake that undercut the whole film, and the character. I get what they were going for. Had Ben Kingsley's Mandarin been what he seemed, he would have been a one-dimensional villain, a reductionist take on Osama Bin Laden, without enough insight into the world that creates a figure like Bin Laden. But turning a real-world villain like that into a comic book supervillain opens up a huge can of worms, the biggest, fattest one being bigotry against anyone remotely Muslim. Maybe a movie could have handled that with sensitivity, but not this movie. So I totally understand the choice of making this Mandarin a staged character designed around American fear and prejudice.
But the choice of turning him into Trevor Slattery was the slap in the face, undercutting all he tension of the film so far with a cheap joke. And replacing Ben Kingsley's impressive supervillain with Guy Pierce's routine one took the wind from the movie's sails. Aldrich Killian, nerdy underdog turned handsome monster, is about as rote as you can get. And we get no insight into his actual character. He's just the answer to the mystery, the jack of clubs when we were expecting the king of hearts. His reveal didn't feel meaningful, just the needless elaboration of a mediocre story that we thought was going somewhere more interesting.
The main problem with Iron Man 3 is Shane Black. He only know how to do Lethal Weapon formula.
I hated "HATED" this film. I specifically went to the theaters to see Ben Kingsley portray Iron Man's greatest foe. Watching Kingsley, in the trailers,
I was totally hyped. Things were going okay, until this scene. WTF??? Not only did I feel betrayed, as a fan & movie-goer, but they totally f**ked up
one of Marvel's great super-villains. What a waste of time, money, and life.
Personally, I don't think the Mandarin reveal makes everything "not matter," instead it serves to show that we never truly know who's pulling the strings, thereby adding to the whole discussion on American politics. Everyone *thinks* the Mandarin is Trevor Slattery, but he's really Killian, who's actually using the title of Wenwu. It's not an abandonment of that theme, but rather another perspective on it.
So the problem you pointed out is essentially the issue faced by Thor as well? Interjecting comedy everytime there's a serious scene or everytime they're on the cusp of something too deep/heavy.
Shane Black + RDJ = Most of RDJ's best performances. Always love that combo. Despite some weak elements, it was all about Tony's overall character arc. And it was beautiful.
I'm also a bit of a Guy Ritchie fan too and I liked his "Nutty Professor" or "Catwoman" type transformation.
But yeah, it did all get rather silly towards the end. But the Iron Man suits were thoroughly enjoyable.
All the Iron Man movies have major flaws, purely because they concentrate a lot on Stark's personal journey. Which thankfully ended amazingly well.
So, yeah, we can bitch about the whole first few phases of these Marvel movies lacking certain ingredients. But ultimately? By the end of End Game, most supporters were delighted with the end of the arcs with the likes of Iron Man, Captain America and Thanos.
You don't get that often with major franchises. Where most fans are satisfied with the big conclusion. Where it wasn't deemed too cheesy, not epic enough or lacking depth or clarity with most of the characters.
I find it really hard to knock that journey as a whole.
We may never see a success like it again in our lifetimes.
For at Marvel, for me, the writing has taken a real nosedive of late. Nowhere near the character work it had before.
I have a lot of faith in James Gunn as a creator. I don't have so much faith in the Warner Bros producer structure that like to intervene and re-edit movies on a whim days before release. Like some mental Vince McMahon.
I demand an episode of Marvel’s What If...? where Tony Stark faces Xu Wenwu (the Real Mandarin).
Maybe a weird thing to say but I find your voice so very comforting and soothing
I remember being in a catatonic rage when the reveal scene was playing in the theater.
Also this was where Marvel started doing that constant deflating tension maneuver they've become known for. It was annoying then and it only became less tolerable as time went on.
The idea of an undermining twist might have been a fun idea to play around with in Iron Man 2. However, undercutting the Mandarin, the themes of war and weaponry and terrorism, and the serious dramatic tension that had been building was an awful idea. People like saving the big stakes for the final film of the trilogy (see Ragnarok, Civil War, No Way Home, Infinity War/Endgame, etc…).
I love this movie and it deserves more credit than what people give it for
BS!
Thor 2 and Iron man 3 are on the bottom of my list
I've grown to love Iron Man 3 over time
The love for Iron Man 3 is SHOCKING. Like i think that this is easily the worst MCU film.
agreed next to black widow
Nah, "I am the Mandarin! " makes sense to me. Kilian had that whole "anonymity makes me invincible" speech and then finally his ego takes over and he's vulnerable and whups bye
It was all about misinformation and scare tactics.
I still remember Jon Faveau saying that he wanted to save The Mandarin for the 3rd film much like how the OG Star Wars trilogy saved The Emperor for the third movie. God..imagine if he was that level of badass. And no, Wenwu did not redeem the character. Just because he was an interesting character it does not mean he was a remotely good Mandarin.
I’m one of those guys who liked the Mandarin twist. I grew up reading vintage comics and thought the Mandarin was kinda lame, so to me that reveal was real funny. Yet, I still think the movie isn’t good. I just hated the way Extremis was treated with all those lame guys spitting fire from their mouth looking all silly… as if I was watching Green Lantern, of Fantastic Four, or some other mediocre superhero movie. Splinter Cell / James Bond Tony Stark scenes were cool though, and I really liked his misadventures in a small town with that little boy - so much Spielberg vibes.
As I recall, the bit at the end with Pepper Potts suddenly wiping the floor with the bad guys was pretty damned funny, and ragingly woke to the point of being cartoonishly exaggerated.
To say that the mandarin scenes in the first half doesn’t matter is being disingenuous. The whole point is he is a false icon for the people to look for while Kilian does his stuff behind the scenes.
I have to disagree with this assessment.
Not in terms of experience, but in terms of what the film is communicating.
The film is clearly pointing out that these conflicts seen as far away and frictional between differing cultures, are actually the product of internal conflicts suggesting that such conflict is a manufactured motivation to fuel personal rivalries. Consequently, this implies Tony's biggest sins are of his own direct involvement, as opposed to the backlash from structural friction between conflicted cultures. As a result, the reveal that the mandarin is little more that a smoke-show, with it's resulting disappointment, indicates to the viewer that Tony's problem to solve was never terrorism, but fighting those who would fuel terrorism for their own ends. A much more measured response to the conflict, than to simply beat a figure head of terror to become a stereotypical white-saviour trope.
This is to say that the film tells us not to focus our ire at foreign terrorists; we don't even know if they exist, but we do know locally there are people who would exploit others to get what they want, even if all they want is to settle a petty grudge from years past.
I hate the twist but mostly because how good they did at selling The Mandarin. He looked like a real threat. Once they played it off as a joke. Nothing was threatening for the rest of the movie. It deflated the movie which is a shame because Tony character story line is really good.
I hated this movie when it came out, years later I watched it again to give it another shot and.........I still hated it.
I like the twist. I think it drives home the point that we need to look past the foreign boogyman and closer to our own shores when searching for our real enemies. I think they were going to make Rebecca Hall's character as the real villain, before someone decided that no one buys girl toys, but Guy Pearce becoming the true villain because of Tony's hubris and attitude is solid storytelling.
Nah, the twist was awesome and absolutely hilarious. Iron Man 3 works on its own. Even as a Shane Black movie
Great video.
I remember when I saw it in the theater and when he said “I’m an actor” I literally said “wait what?” no joke that was my reaction to this scene!
Yayyy a new video! Love your format
It also doesn't help the suits were downgraded to Tin Man armour. Spent half the film being either useless or misused
Sounds to me like the real problem was that Ben Kingsley was a little too good as the setup for the joke, and the punchline was therefore a huge letdown.
Iron man 3 is one of my fav mcu movies, i don't know what I'm doing by watching this video..... oh well
This is the movie that made me drop the MCU to never come back, and I don't regret it.
"Finally"! Someone here who sees this film for the crapfest it was. I really thought I was alone here for a while.
For me, the bigger issue was that this kind of wrapped up a good bit of Tony’s story, but they had to kinda walk a lot of it back so that he could continue in other movies, and get a later wrap up in Endgame (albeit a better and more final wrap up)
Between this and the fact that Slattery-Mandarin didn’t matter, the movie rings sort of hollow in the long run
I'm afraid I don't really agree with this, I didn't love 3 but I have never read a comic book so I have nothing invested and it was fine. The reveal made me laugh. Ironman 2 on the other hand was absolutely dreadful.
I disagree, wholeheartedly. I probably might have thought likewise at the time, but I was wrong then, as this video is now. The reveal makes the film. The fact that The Big Bad Final Boss is just disappointing old Killian is the point. This might be the only MCU film Scorcese would feel isn’t your standard theme park ride ending in a blue sky beam. I didn’t like it at the time, but it will probably stand out in the long run as one of the better MCU films, precisely for all the reasons being objected to here.
I really enjoyed the movie, but saw it super late from when it came out. As I was watching it, I was thinking to myself why everyone hated it. Then the reveal happened, and it upset me. Not because I didn't like the movie, but because of all the build up. You hit it right on the head.
The villain was a complete joke, The Mandarin is supposed to be Iron Man’s joker, his green goblin, but they treated it as a complete joke, and the humor was just terrible which would be a major issue going forward
I just watched a portion of Iron Man 3 again last night and I still think it's high on the list of best MCU movies, especially one of the best for handling the comedown from a recent Avengers movie. The PTSD Tony had from New York, the variety of suits, him forming a bond with Harley, and other character performances make it a good movie, and I enjoyed the twist with the Mandarin being invented as propagand, although I could do without Killian calling himself the true Mandarin and leaving it as a myth. I'd critique that there is a whole lot going on and it really makes it into a comic book-level of action, and one thing that would be divisive is that the villain here is one that Tony created, which became a trope for too many more movies (Mysterio, Ultron, etc.) but this was one of the earlier times it happened (and chronologically the first time because of the flashback), so that's not a big issue.
It would have been better if Aldrich was successful in getting funding from stark industries. Then, the whole "creating demons" thing would've been reinforced. Pepper's approval of AIM funding, then retribution via the final blow is earned. Aldrich also could've been the next in line of iron man tech villains that have been enabled by stark industries itself. Stane, Vanko, Killian, Ultron, and even Misterio could have all had a common thread amongst them. All used stark-tech to pursue their agendas. That thread would make the 'fake out' that it was Aldrich the whole time, less of a detriment to the film because, as the audience, we would have been conditioned a bit to know by then that stark industries is a fertile resource for villainy.
Yes! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 the Mandarin was supposed to a mental villain who exposed Stark’s hypocrisy of his contributions to the war effort. The fact that the movie made it look like the Mandarin was recruiting wounded soldiers was scary. I was beyond angry when I realized that more than half of the movie didn’t matter. Ben Kingsley’s Mandarin villain could have been iconic 🔥
Well, there was still in fact a villain recruiting wounded soldiers...
The Mandarin actually was recruiting wounded soldiers and actually does expose Stark’s hypocrisy. Your problem here is that the Mandarin was played by Guy Pearce and wasn't some Fu Manchu kind of character. The entirety of the movie matters.
@@Carabas72 You’re right, he was actually recruiting. But I have no problem if it was Guy Pearce or someone else playing the mandarin. I dont want a fu Manchu caricature cuz that’s gross. my problem is the emotional whiplash that the villain was not who he was and the stakes didn’t matter. The villain was once again another tech villain ugh! I was hoping to see a villain who Iron Man couldn’t just easily punch his way through. Initially the movie looked promising like a battle of ideas, then it turned out to be another smash em cash em Disney movie.
@@getschwifty5537 yep you’re right that was a typo. Good catch! 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
@@bnkumar8836
The Mandarin is a tech villain. His rings haven't been magic in ages.
Also, Killian was not a villain Tony could just punch. That's not how it went in the movie. The Mandarin in the comics on the other hand, very punchable, usually.
I am not really getting what you wanted out of this that wasn't in the movie. A movie that does not have any kind of plot twist? good luck with that.
Couldn't agree more with this assessment. Turning Ben Kingsley into essentially a comedic, drunk punchline was borderline offensive. I was TOTALLY buying into him as this dark, terrifying antagonist who was almost an existential-level threat. To dump the build-up the way they did and replace him with Aldrich "Gimme Money" Killian was inexcusably poor script writing and a waste of true cinematic talent.
That switcheroo and re-frame made Iron Man 3 - in my mind - the worst of any Marvel movie with Iron Man in it. I can't even bring myself to watch it anymore.
I agree that the fake Mandarin was kinda lame, but it gave some weird dynamicy to the film, because in the first one terrorists are the bad guys, but Obadiah was the Villain. So if theMandarin was real, it would just be the first movie a bit different.
I never had a problem with it until people started picking apart to reveal to me that I did have a problem with it.
Iron Man 3 is one of the best Marvel movies, but that’s just me.
Literally, just you
I got you. Iron Man 3 and it's portrayal of the mental anguish of an anxiety/panic attack (difficult things, but they look similar) was very accurate and was nice to have in such a major movie. It's my favorite Iron Man movie for it.
Actually a lot of people including myself
@@ryanhatesgirls It is really good.
@@trentc7329 good at being dull
Wasn’t the best marvel movie but I liked it a lot from what I remember.
5:52 is the BEST part of this vid! That's the point I've been trying to make about the MCU as a whole, that while something can still be funny and well executed, it kills the potential for what the project should have been. I think of this with Better Call Saul becoming too dry and dramatic for its own good. it may be well executed, but it breaks a promise and character arc and warps it into something it certainly was never meant to be
On the one hand, a well-built opponent is sacrificed for a joke. Which is a fairly typical move for Shane Black, who likes to turn upside down the conventions and stereotypes he uses.
But on the other hand, the fact that Mandarian turns out to be a fake is a commentary on the commercialization and joyful celebration of war we see in the film. War Machine turns into a colorful symbol, and Tony Stark has to shed his armor and deal with adversity on his own, without flashy gadgets.
Comic book nostalgia and naiveté are torn away like a veil, and their place is taken by (pseudo) realism.
Which doesn't change the fact that the ending is weak. But this is something Marvel has problems with in almost every movie :(
Loved this video, these were exactly my problems with Iron Man 3 and why I personally don't enjoy it. And I didn't even follow the comics. Yes I get the point of the twist, but I just don't think they pulled it off. If the true villain was more interesting I probably could have been sold on it, but he wasn't to me, which made it just disappointing.
Whatever happened to Paltrow's powers?
Wanted to walk out after what they did to the mandarin…. Could have used the mandarin as precursor to strange and magic…such a missed opportunity
This is why I hate the MCU
They turn everything into a joke
tf you talking about Iron Man 3 is goated