For what it’s worth this topic wasn’t inspired by, and isn’t a comment on, recent allegations against Gaiman (which I hadn’t heard about; I don’t follow news about him). My videos tend to be made much earlier than you see them.
Hi Jackson! I’ve always been curious about your opinion of this book! Thanks for your thoughts. I’ve been a big fan of yours and I actually wrote a play/epic poem in the style of the Elder Edda that I’d love your opinion on similarly to this video. Let me know if you’re interested I’d love to chat more!
Also I hope all is well with the evacuation! My cousin lives in Colorado and I was just there and it was scary how you couldn’t see the mountains! Stay safe!
Good luck with the wildfires - hope you're able to go home soon. I did wonder about the timing of this vid! But I had to google whatever is going on with Gaiman just now, because the first I heard of it was a comment video on UA-cam! Thoughts on this book: I've got it as an audiobook, read by the author - and it's a really enjoyable experience. It's very much angled towards the MCU crowd though, and he admits he's left a lot out. Edit: Now I've watched the whole thing, I've noticed you look younger and healthier than in the last videos I've watched. Good stuff! Looking after yourself, despite the cigar habit! :D
Only recently found you. Have you written translations of the eddas? I would love to buy those. Despite being about 80% of viking descent i do not speak old norse. But that history has always been very important to my family and i want the stories to pass on to future generations.
I read Gaiman's book about five years ago when I retired (HS English teacher whose claim to fame is being "related" to the Oseberg ship, found on my great-grandfather's farm in Tonsberg) and finally discovered what it is like to have time! That introduction has made me much more interested in my heritage and the sagas. Gaiman's Norse Mythology and the TV Show "Vikings" have the same relationship to the eddas: making the information more palatable to the modern consumer. But that can spark a renewed interest in the general public, perhaps leading to further study and more jobs for medievalists. On a more personal note, thank you for your videos. I thoroughly enjoy them, even if I am too busy in retirement to do the studying necessary to learn Old Norse (I learned enough Old English to translate (with a class) Beowulf: I know that if life even calms down, your videos will help me fulfill a dream. So in anticipation of future success, thank you; you have done a public service with your channel.
I've heard Gaiman say when making this book, a lot of liberties he took was because he primarily wanted to make the stories more entertaining and more digestible in general. He didnt intend for it to be an actual translation of poems, but he did want to inspire readers to go out and look for the actual translations and read them.
He says almost exactly this in the introduction of the book. I listened to the audiobook edition and thought it makes for an incredible introduction to the myths. They’re fun and clear cut, but moving from it to the actual myths is the name of the game.
I honestly don't care much for those kinds of explanations or excuses. Truth is, most people who read the book *won't* go into the *actual* sources. They will read the book, see that it's "based on the real stuff", and take it as facts at face value. Hundreds and hundreds of writers and artists have already done this stuff, and stuff written with these caveats are usually the very origin of misconceptions. Gaiman is free to write whatever he wants of course, but at least just drop the hypocritical veneer that he's doing this to educate people. He's not. He's using basically readily-written plots with no copyright claims for entertainment. Stories which have the added spice of "being based on real mythology" which only adds to their sale value. It's crass entertainment biz. That's all.
People have been taking "liberties' with these stories since ancient times. We sometimes have competing versions of stories, and much of the Norse stuff went through a Christian veneer before it ever got to us. As someone with a history degree, I appreciate authenticity. But Gaiman saying right from the start that he took liberties is fine. He tells you right off. And if people read that book and not the Intro by the author, they have no one to blame but themselves for their lack of knowledge. Sure, you can maybe quibble over the title, but his intent is made clear right two pages in. Usually, books like this should someone read them at all, get people interested and excited about these subjects and often the real history of these people. I've seen it over and over and even my own journey into history began with reading Greek myths in our elementary school reading primers. Those stories were not the "original" versions by any stretch of the imagination. I also grew up and suffered through the original "Clash of the Titans."😂 However, all those myths did was send me to the library where I'd look up Athena and other Greek gods and start to learn the realities. Then I moved on to this wonderful city named for my favorite goddess. I leaned about Athens, then Thebes, Corinth, and later Rome and Carthage and on and on. There is nothing wrong with what Gaiman had written here because he says right up front he does take liberties. If someone reads his book and misses reading that, or simply chooses to learn nothing more, that is on them, not Gaiman. He is just doing what writers have done for thousands of years. (Edited typos only, no content changed.)
I'm Swedish and I've always heard the jotuns being referred to as giants (the modern swedish word is "jätte" and is used for giants from any mythology, and as an adjective meaning huge). I used Google Gemini to search for quotes from the eddas that suggest their size. In Gylfaginning, the jotun Ymir is described as being so enormous that his body formed the mountains and his blood the seas: "From Ymir's flesh the earth was made, / And from his blood the sea so wide" In Skáldskaparmál, Thor encounters the giant Skrýmir, whose glove is so large that Thor mistakes it for a cave: "Thor went into the glove and fell asleep."
To your first point, Ymir's size has nothing to do with what his body parts became. That is too literal, a purely modern reading. Ancient peoples saw the world very differently. They knew water wasn't actual blood and clouds were actual brains. But the association between Ymir, the Personification of Chaos, and the natural world is to tell us the truth about the nature of the world the Norse lived in, one entirely hostile to human existence.
@@ScottJB All that really means is that some of them are very large, it doesn't necessarily mean this is a trait that all of them share. The way the word is often translated, it implies that they are an entire race of giants that are all very large, which is simply not the case.
@@ScottJB extrapolating the meaning of modern cognates to ancient/medieval languages doesn't always work. Just as an example - in West Slavic languages the word for a giant is 'obr' (Czech, Old Polish), 'olbrzym' (Polish) which are believed to have originated from an Old Slavic word for 'Avar' (the nation). It's clear that at some point West Slavs associated Avars with giants but it obviously doesn't mean that 1500 years ago Slavs believed that Avars actually were giants.
Yeah. I've always thought of his book as coming from the point of view of someone sitting at a campfire telling stories they learned in their youth. Some things he only half remembers, other things he embellishes. Its a lot better than what Marvel has done with Norse myth, but its still meant for entertainment, not education.
I read the book, and that's the way I took it. I was entertained. And while the book which is not a historically accurate representation of what we do have, it's probably a good simulacrum of how these stories were passed down by word of mouth. Different story tellers in different regions probably had all kinds of variations of these stories they told, with all sorts of omissions, additions, and embellishments. It was an oral religion after all, there was no written canon of books, or Norse "Bible" to speak of. At least none that we are aware of. So in a way, he did a good job capturing how these stories might have been told and passed down and at least that aspect of the book was in a way accurate.
Correction: MCU. Marvel as in Marvel Comics actually did try to follow the myths to certain and uncertain extents. Likewise, the creation of the Nine Worlds in Marvel Comics is the same as it is in the Eddas. Norse Gods are referred to as Aesir. And like the myths, the comics are rooted in supernatural and magic, whereas in the movies they cowardly just made them aliens with tech.
It's been forever since I read it, but isn't that exactly how he opens the book? By explaining these are stories he liked when he was a kid or something. It's obviously a fiction writing, not really any different than American Gods.
Not for nothing but I am actually thrilled that you worked on American Gods. It's one of my fav series of all time, I absolutely LOVED it. Mr.Wednesday is an unforgettable character.
You mentioned that the idea that the Norse "giants" were large is perhaps the result of likening them to the titans in Greek mythology. Would it be helpful to note that neither Giants nor Titans are really any larger than Vikings, Jets, Steelers, or Packers? It might provide a quick way to get students to mentally unload the term.
Furthermore there is this story of Thur and this massive giant in Snorris Edda as well as the fact that in folkstories in Germany they are ‘Riese’ (that same word).
I too have heard this claim that the Norse giants were not literally giants it was a metaphorical description of their power, similar to giants in Navajo mythology “the great fears”. But there is direct counter evidence to this in multiple texts. “Am I wrong in thinking that this little fellow is Thor” - The adventures of Thor and Loki in Jötunheim
Well, in a world where the average man is 5'10", a man who is 6'8"(like my grandfather born 1880) looks pretty gigantic. Tall stories tend to grow over time.
He's an adult. That's how he "got past" the swearing. That, and he's interested in accurate representations of history. Life during the time Deadwood occurred was extremely rough. People cursed. Adults should not shrivel up and blow away because of cursing. Also, it was a fantastic show.
I wonder how accurate "Deadwood" was at portraying 'the old west'? I'm sure some historians would punch some significant holes in its portrayal. Not me mind you, I too like Ian McShane (sp) ... ie Tai Lung!
That's exactly what happened for me! I discovered the audiobook version, and it's great to fall asleep to, but I'm glad to have learned more about the original(ish) myths and especially the cultures from Dr. Crawford's work.
Love your works Dr. Crawford, but I also love the whimsical telling of the myths by Gaiman. Thanks for taking the time to chew through the book and for your fine works, all of which I've listened to multiple times on audible.
We know Gaiman does this, though. His treatment of Beowulf for the Robert Zemeckis film was pretty loosey goosey and took great liberties with the story (and not for the better).
@@johnwhelan9663 I know, right? The whole point is that Beowulf's desire for fame go the better of him in the end. It's a universal problem. You don't need Grendel's mother seducing him to make a dragon baby (what?) and then later seducing Wiglaf to continue the cycle of problems. Human hubris will get everybody eventually, especially in a society where a famous legacy is desired above all. I will say, giving Grendel a chronic ear infection which makes his hearing the singing in Heorot give him actual, physical pain was an interesting way to make him upset with the Scyldings. The actual text has him angry because they're singing hymns, which works in the story because he's a demonic son of Cain, but it does make him a little more pathetic. Also, I appreciated how Grendel is the only one speaking Old English. But that's the only redeeming thing in the whole movie.
I started getting into Norse Mythology reading by reading this book. I had some pre-knowledge of the subject before reading it. Reading the edda right afterwards, I concluded that Gaiman's book was a modern Edda. I guess it could be a catalyst, just like Helen Guerber's work, but going directly to the Eddas is a lot better in retrospect
Hi Dr. Crawford - Your critique of the book is fair. EDITED for clarity: Neil Gaiman's book Norse Mythology is entertainment, not scholarship. Gaiman obviously is not an expert in mythology. Most people will not read the introduction and will misinterpret a fictionalized retelling of the original stories as "gospel" of the Nose religion. In the introduction, Gaiman listed some of the sources he used, discussed details of original stories that he adapted, and finally said all mistakes were his own. My favorite retellings are how Tir lost his hand, Loki becoming the mother of Sleipnir, and Thor and Loki disguised as women at the wedding banquet.
@@iamthe80s49 You misunderstood. I'm referring to the title of Gaiman's book, not the original Norse stories. As you correctly say, the Norse myths are oral tradition. I will edit my post to clarify.
NG is one of the top cultural appropriators and the issue with this is that he's doing it for financial reasons not because he cares about the various cultures he exploits for book deals. The allegations against him are enough to illustrate that he thinks he's above criticism and relies on his fandom to promote his writing regardless
When I was a kid I read "In the Days of Giants" and loved it. Later, I was taking my first course in Old Norse, and we read Snorri's version of the story about the giant building the walls of Asgardr. It was exactly as I remembered it--except for the part about Sleipnir, which had been omitted (or I didn't understand it) in the kid's book. My feeling is that this is just the greatest shaggy-dog story ever, and trying to explain or elaborate on the joke spoils it a little.
Neil clearly wrote this book for those who have watched MCU movies and wanted to find out about the original source for Marvel's Thor, so he didn't approach it with an academic mindset. Much like Danish comic Valhalla, it was just a condensed collection of stories told in a pop culture-friendly way. I kind of got the idea he wasn't pedantic about this when he kept referring to Jotnar as Frost Giants (again, Marvel's term). This book also leaves out some of the best stories from the Eddas. Like Thor's game of insults with his dad and Loki's rap battle against the gods at a dinning table. Much like any Viking metal band, it's a gateway for people who want to learn more about the Viking Age stories.
As this is the first of your videos that I've watched, I found this a very enjoyable exploration of what seem to be some common pitfalls of translation and interpretation :D Thank you!
I’ve been waiting for this for a long time! Please do a follow up when you finish the book. I really think you’ll appreciate Gaiman’s take on the mead of poets chapter.
This was the first book on Norse Mythology I read back 2016 or 17 I believe. Shortly after when looking into it further is when I found your channel. For that I appreciate it. However, it does still irk me how many unbearable neopagans from my hometown have clearly only read this book or similarly inspired books, and none of the actual sources because they think those are canon. They also constantly try to use those stories with no background or context of the era they're from to show how "oppressive" Christianity is, hence why they're unbearable.
@IFeelQuiteHungry This. Exactly. It's like saying, "this is TRUE rock n roll." There was always an evolution that came prior, and everyone thinks the contemporaries are posers.
I think it was intended to be more like a fairytale, or storybook retelling for a younger audience. There are notes at the end of the book on each story where if I recall he remarks on where he took creative liberties. I read yours and other translations before picking up Neil Gaiman's book but I took it more along that vein. Like the little mermaid in all it's retellings.
I felt Gaimans work captured the spirit of the myths while appealing to a modern audience. It isn’t supposed to be academic it’s supposed to be entertaining. A lot of people, myself included, found your page because of his work.
The Titans weren't particularly tall, either. They were just the preceding generation of gods, and were largely the parents or relatives of the Olympians. The giants were a separate race who coincidentally also fought the Olympians. I don't know if they're ever mentioned to be notably large, either.
My second book on Norse Mythology was Gaiman's, which I read in Swedish, and I enjoyed to the point that I went on to find other sources on the same topic.
A lot of people have developed an interest in Norse culture because of the Vikings show, and we know how historically accurate that is. 🙄 But they come to social media, want to learn more, and ask where to start. I send them to this book and caution them that a lot of liberties were taken and significant fictional elements were added to make the eddas easier to read. I also recommend that if they’re still interested in learning more after reading this, they should read your translations of the eddas and sagas. An easy, fun pathway into Norse mythology is more likely to be followed than one that most people will lose interest in because so much has been lost, making what’s left difficult to follow.
As I myself have told others on the Norse mythology subreddit, it’s a narrativised telling of Norse myth; as such it is not a robust source or wholly accurate, however it is fun much the same way every show or movie based on mythology is.
Thanks for this. Fortunately for me, I watched your Great Courses lecture series (which I stumbled upon in the Wondrium app - it was excellent!) before listening to the audiobook version of Gaiman's book, so I knew enough to take his interpretations with a large grain of salt.
"Norse Mythology" will always have a special place in my heart. Even though it's not accurate with a tonne of stuff. I first read it when I was about, 13 or 14 I think (4-5 years ago). And it was the book that got me interested in reading, and in Norse mythology. I've re-read it probably half a dozen times since then. And have done I dont know how much reading into actual Norse mythology, history, and just reading in general. If it weren't for this book I'd be a completely diffrent person
@@SirHarryFlashman It looks like the Latin word began to displace the Germanic one quite early. It would probably be better to leave the word *jotunn* untranslated to avoid confusion.
Your critique is valuable to me. I think the difference between you making a video about hummingbirds and what Gaiman's Norse Mythology book is that he is a writing of stories, and mythology is the stories we tell about the gods. I do think that it would be wise for the forward of the book to make very clear that this is not a scholarly work, but I think it does make sense for a storytelling to have interest in telling these stories in their own way.
Jackson, I’ve enjoyed many of your lectures on Norse mythology. I would not question your expertise. Ive also enjoyed Gaiman’s modern interpretations of these myths, while absolutely supporting your adherence to the surviving texts. My take is he is carrying on a literary tradition started by Snorri, Saxo, and other medieval scholars right up as well as Tolkien and even Marvel Comics. Is that a serve or a disservice should be questioned. Therefore considering you have connections to Gaiman, since you were an advisor on American Gods, why not you guys get together and talk about your different approaches? I would love to see and hear that dialogue.
That part about the "the Norse gods came from Germany" was the only thing I knew about the book beforehand as someone once quoted it to me to "prove" that Norse mythology and the Germanic languages originated in modern day Germany. So I definitely am skeptical to this type of work and the potential damage it causes to the popular understanding of both the Eddas and academic research of the subject.
Just bought 2 of your books in hardcover. Thank you for always being a great source of agenda free information. Much love from Texas brother keep up the awesome work. ❤
I had a fascination for Norse mythology in the late 70’s and early 80’s. When in high school I wrote a paper comparing Norse and Greek mythology to Christianity about man’s natural knowledge of God. Zeus and the All Father akin to God the Father in the Trinity. It was divinity school and I think I was credited an A. Probably for effort. Certainly wasn’t scholarship. Thanks for your candor. I think I have his book here somewhere. I recently pulled out some books on Irish and Scottish mythology. Think I will take a gander at learn more about the Edda. It’s been 40 years (+)! Thanks again.
Thank you for posting this! I have and read this book a few times. I had thought this book was a summary of a lot of Old Norse stories. I considered it pretty much canon like you said, with a small grain of salt because he isn’t an educator but a fiction writer. I appreciate clearing up some of the misconceptions that I had arrived at.
I came here via Norse Myths & Magic some years ago. From both channels I have engaged in much book buying and added the Saxon and Angles origins/culture etc upon the English nation.
Honestly, I think your criticism on the book is pretty fair, Dr. Crawford 👍🏼 And I appreciate you being humble in saying that you aren’t the target audience of the book. I for one think it’s a good starting point to learn about the Myths, but as Gaiman himself says in the introduction, going to the actual sources should always be the goal afterwards.
It was neither. And I don't think the review was meant to dissuade readers. She generally praised the book while maintaining criticisms that typify his works.
@@Vykk_Draygo Yeah read it and it was fairly positive, the only thing being that she complains about how the characrs speak - kind of the same complaint Jackson had.
"All mistakes, conclusions jumped to, and odd opinions in this volume are mine and mine alone, and I would not wish anyone else blamed for them. I hope I've retold these stories honestly, but there was still joy and creation in the telling. That's the joy of myths. The fun comes in telling them yourself - something I warmly encourage you to do, you person reading this. Read the stories in this book, then make them your own"
This book brought me to your work. I always had an interest in the mythology, and Gaiman's stories made them fun and digestible. Fully knowing that liberties had been taken (because he had explained as much), I went searching for more information on the original source material, and subsequently found this channel, and the books you've written. Been a huge fan since.
I don't even know how this book can create any kind of discussion or controversy within Scandinavian studies. It is obvious that it is a fantasy book, or a book in which one can learn about Norse mythology in a slightly amusing, almost child-friendly way. For example, if I introduce my 15-year-old son to the eddas, I know he will lose interest in, say, Norse mythology, but this book will nevertheless whet his appetite for more serious research. I've already seen many scholars criticise this book, but I repeat that it shouldn't even be intended as something to study Norse mythology. It's like reading Terry Pratchett to learn how the universe works....
Seeing someone smoking a cigar is so... odd. I'm a young guy, seeing people smoking is already strange, but seeing this modern day American guy dressed into nu-cowboy smoking a cigar feels like this video came from an alternate universe.
Thanks for the cogent and honest review. I agree, primary sources are the best place to start research and study. And the stogie looks delish! (I prefer the Honduran maduros.)
I don't know about the version of the book you have, but I think I remember (don't have it on hand to check unfortunately) mine having a good preface where it said pretty clearly it was a retelling with liberties, not necessarily copying the source. At least that's how I've seen the book
In reference to the point at roughly the ten minute mark, about how sparse Norse mythology is, and that in the Edda's only Odin, Thor, Freyja, and Loki get much "screen time," so to speak. I wonder how much of that might be due to the fact that all this was only written down a couple of centuries after the end of the so-called Viking Age, after the people in Iceland and Scandinavia had already converted to Christianity and thus become literate. It's really a crying shame that almost everything we know about Norse mythology comes at that remove. One of the great things about Greek and Roman mythology is that the abundant stories about the gods of Olympus, and the human heroes in their stories, was that the Greeks and Romans were literate peoples during their pagan periods. They wrote about their pagan gods _during_ the period when those gods still had worshipers, and the religions built around them still had rituals and ceremonies and rites that were being actively practiced at that time. By the time the Icelanders were able to write about the Norse gods and heroes, and record these stories so that they weren't lost for all time, they were writing about something that had already passed into history. And then, of course, there are the variations on those gods and their stories, as other Germanic peoples worshiped them or told stories of them. It makes me wonder how many tales and traditions simply never got written down, and faded from human memory. I'd bet that what got written down is just the tip of the iceberg.
I found your work through Gaiman's book actually. I enjoyed that feeling of oral storytelling (helped that I first listened to it as an audiobook), but I felt confused by his explanations of the All-Father title just a chapter before mentioning Odin's own parents and siblings, or "Uncle Mimir" as you mention. Wanted some of the historical context that you conveyed and to get a more accurate picture of how the stories were originally told. Glad to have read both of your works and to hear your thoughts on Gaiman's adaptation.
I was just reading the Roger Lancelyn Green version and he says Mimir was literally Bestla's brother and Odin's uncle. So I'm not sure what the source of this is, but it's not Gaiman.
Gaimen is a storyteller not a scholar. That's not to say he is uneducated but to say he is not an educator. But you are correct his work could be looked at as cannon and not historically based fiction.
i preordered this book and if my memory is correct i got it in the same package as your Poetic Edda translation, and i was excited to read Gaiman's book as i loved American Gods, but sadly i got a misprint that only goes to page 35, before starting over at page 1... i never got around to picking up another copy, loved your book though!
I also wondered about Odin's reference in Gaiman's book, to Mimir as “Uncle”. I have seen speculation that Mimir may have been the brother of Bestla, but I think the reference was Thurastru or some other alternative systemization.
Mimir is simply a personification of memory. We still use personification in poetry today. Many other characters and giants and gods are also personifications of ideas central to that peoples’ worldview
@@robertjarrell7276I always thought of mimir as being part of Odin's sacrifice for obtaining knowledge and that knowledge being taken advantage of and his giving nature turning to vengeance. Norse Mythology really focuses on paths in life that bring pain, conflict, war, and vengeance. One does not like their ideas being stolen and a giving person can become a vengeful one.
While not a norse myth specialist by any stretch, i definitely recognized a lot of liberties taken in this story. I think the best way to define this work would be a reamagining, and i think it has the potential to help create interest in norse myth from peopke who may have had their interests peaked from media like marvel or god of war for example. I also don't think works like these ought to be hated as much because each individual will have their own level of interest. One person's interest could start at marvel and lead them all the way to this channel here and their satisfied, while another person's interest could lead them to a phd in norse language and myth.
Years ago I read Kevin Crossley-Holland’s version of Norse mythology and it was a bit of a struggle to get through it. But I did. I read Neil Gaiman’s version and I noticed a couple of inaccurate bits and I agree about the Anglicization. I suggested it as an intro to the Norse myths to a couple of people-with the caveat that there are inaccurate parts. But it was a lot more readable than the Kevin Crossley-Holland one. I agree about the modern interior monologue thing too. Mostly I think he should’ve just called it “Tales from Norse Mythology” by analogy with Andrew Lang’s “Tales from Greek Mythology”. I enjoyed the S4C adaptation of the Mabinogion - but it wasn’t the Mabinogion. That was more obvious because it was in a different medium, and they didn’t call it the Mabinogion.
Curiously I was just thinking about the problem of translating names. I think where there are familiar English names (Freya, Odin, Thor) it would be pedantic not to use them. Of course this debate will never end.
I think Gaiman was approaching the topic as a writer of speculative fiction, unfortunately modern day alt religion like to turn purely literary materials into religious texts and treat it as "authentic" tradition. I think a pot of people treated the book as source material and probably will look no further. I'd compare to Bullfinches Mythology in relation to Greek history
I always just figured that the assumption of the Jotnar being giants was because there are a couple characters in the stories that are described as giant, the ones I can think of being Ymir and Skrymir (I'm guessing the closeness in names isn't a coincidence?)
17:00 In swedish the general word for Giant is just Jätte, just as in- and from Jötun too. Not sure, isn't it already used like that it old/middle english often too? Like Eotens can be big, and Eotinde Ring for Stone Henge etc. Maybe it is from Ymir at least being big. And like, his corpse becoming the mountains and stuff, paralleling common themes in later folklore about jättar, where they are often used as explanation for how islands, boulders, cliffs and stuff came to be thown or raised where they are.
I believe Gaiman is doing a merging of childhood reading of Roger Lancelyn Green’s Myths of the Norsemen, and Snorri Sturluson. As a high school teacher of reluctant readers, what I always need is someone telling tales, myths and legends as entertaining stories, not as direct translations or analyses. You know, modern readers expect more dialogue and internal narrative and clear motives and lots of description.
A minor comment on what you mentioned about classical mythology. Not only did the Greek gods fight Titans, they also waged a war against the Giants (or in Ancient Greek Γίγαντες, which is ultimately where the English word “giant” is derived from). So it just makes more sense for old translators to have adapted this bit of Greek mythology and transposed it on their understanding of Norse myth and jǫtunn (which from my personal and not unlimited research seems to be cognate with the English “eat”).
I did feel the stories were a bit too embellished but it was a fun read overall. However i never imagined anyone would take it as canon... I guess it must be because i knew it couldn't be, since it was a book by a known fantasy author and it didn't mention anything about the original sources on the cover. I mean it's presented as an original work by a single author who is known to have written other things with these characters. I never imagined anyone could just publish a book called Norse mythology that would be canon without being legally bound to mention something like "a translation from the Edas" or something like that. But i guess that's because i have a science background, so quoting sources is sort of second nature to me and i just assumed it would be normal critical thinking to assume a book that doesn't can only be a work of fiction based on the Norse myths. Now thinking about it i realize that mist people don't do that kind of evaluation, so i see why you'd be worried people take it as canon.
Good luck with the fires, Dr. Jackson. As far as the book and an Old Norse enthusiast, I enjoyed it. But I went straight in knowing that this book was more meant for the entertainment side, so while I was going through it, it didn't irk me that he wasn't adapting them the way the the sources may show. I've consumed a lot of his work, and he twisted some nice British wit into the stories. If you were to ask me if this would be an academic source or a source for heathens trying to learn, I would definitely say no.
I was introduced to Norse and Greek mythology at an early age, my dad used to tell me and my brother bedtime stories about the old gods and heroes. Where he got it from I don't know but I do think he was trying to introduce us to a rich heritage of literature and he was a very good story teller as well.
A bit unrelated subject, but I'm very interested in your thoughts on "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim", It's heavily influenced by Norse Mythology and I think it would be so interesting to watch😌 And great video as usual!
I read your books before I read his. While yours are more informative and historical, his were a fun story to read. I imagined and old village elder telling one of these chapters around a campfire. It made for a fun read....
Watched the vid; never heard of you beforehand - Really enjoyed the neutral with a flair of personality way you construct your view. I doth Sub, kind Sir.
A note of the perception of norse "giants" being liken to greek titans is that the greek titans also aren't particularly tall or taller than the gods and neither are the other group that the gods fight, the actual giants. You can see this in the iconography like the altar of Pergamon as they are always represented as being the same size as gods and heroes. There is a notion in classical times that people used to be taller in the past, if I'm not misremmebering the ideal size for a hero was belive to be around 4 meters (13ft.) so maybe that's how the misconception that giants were belive to be extraordinary tall came to be.
I'm kinda curious how old the misconception between "jotun" and "giant" is, since the word "jätte" in the Swedish language litterally means "giant" and is also used as a word to emphasize something's bigness. Does it really come from a misunderstanding of the ancient norse sources, or is it more just a case of the meaning of the word changing over time when the norse beliefs were replaced with Christianity, and then the new meaning is applied to the old stories? And perhaps both the gods and the jotun were thought of as larger than life beings, perhaps not even in their physical form but just in their presence? I'm sure if someone tells you a scary story about the "Jotun" when you're little, you'll imagine them as large and imposing creatures.
I am both a fan of Gaiman's work (though I admit I haven't had a chance to read this book yet) and yours but I really view them as two totally different things. Gaiman has been a favorite author of mine for many years. But the books I've read by him are fiction and even though this book isn't marketed as fiction, I figured he would take certain liberties as a well-known fiction author to fill in gaps that are left in what is known due to not all the old Norse stories having been documented thoroughly. I think the people who will read this book will 1) know that he is a well-known fiction author and 2) for the most part not be motivated to look into old Norse stories in depth. Being marketed toward that crowd I would MUCH prefer these folks to assume that his re-telling is "fact" than for them to delve into the world of white-supremacist re-tellings of Norse mythology. This video comes across as very harsh, but I do understand why and I think you did okay at explaining why you feel that way. We all have certain things that just get under our skin and this appears to be yours! For those who do watch videos like yours, we will know that most (likely ALL) re-tellings are not going to be 100% accurate, because they weren't documented until way later and so much information was missing. And we will, from there, look into the historical texts that are available in more depth (by reading/watching your work among other things)! Thank you for all that you do and much luck with the wildfires. It is a sad thing to see the destruction and all the lives (human and not) that are affected.
You mention that there isn't much in the way of describing Jötnar as giants, but I do wonder then how you would approach the saga in which Thor and Loki stay the evening in Skrymir's glove, mistaking it for a hall?
strikes me as being rendered as a consequence of reanalysing the last vowel through the phono-orthographic structures surrounding the English STRUT vowel. Weird stuff happens with that when interfacing with other phonologies
Dr Crawford your humility and humble nature are admirable, but I don't think you give yourself enough credit if you sincerely believe yourself to be "some nobody on the internet". As someone who has been in the Norse pagan religious community for almost a decade, allow me to tell you that almost everyone I've ever spoken to hold you and your work in very high regard and you and your works are almost universally considered to be the benchmark for scholarly academic standards for those of us wanting an authentic and objective analysis of Old Norse literature as we learn more about our ancestors and their stories as a means of learning more about ourselves in the sense of where we come from and becoming more familiar with the ancient history that plays such a pivotal role in our spiritual beliefs. Dr. Crawford, you are greatly appreciated. 🖤
i'd attempted to read faulkes' translation of the prose edda in 2016 and struggled to retain any of the information so read gaiman's norse mythology in early 2017 because i knew the simplified versions would be easier to remember, immediately picked faulkes' edda back up after finishing gaiman's NM and flew through it! i think it's a good starting off point if people are struggling with the source material or if they know they only have a surface level interest in NM. i haven't reread gaiman's version since reading the eddas and sagas but have recommended it to my friends and family who wanted to know why i'm so into the mythology 😅 to be fair the criticisms you have about it would also annoy me now too lol
I would love to hear your take on the show The Last Kingdom. It is a long watch but it's a wonderful show and isn't overtly fantastical in my opinion. I think it might be a bit more digestible for you in that regard. Just a thought, either way love your videos as always Mr. Crawford. Please keep them up and i'll always return for a watch.
I enjoyed the book as entertainment. But I would rate it just above Marvel if you want to learn about the old gods. I think and I could very well be wrong that much gets lost in translation, and what translations you are taking the source from. This is why I really enjoy your books, I want to someday learn actual old Norse and read it that way.
I usually enjoy Gaiman. I tried reading this book and indeed, as you say, it's tone was uneven and the style inconsistent. That killed my ability to suspend myself in the stories. I gave up on it before I read the first 50 pages.
This book holds a special place in my heart because it has been an entry point for my kids into the Norse stories. Your criticisms are of course valid, but the way see is it is more of an evolution of modern folklore rather than an adaptation of the original eddas, not unlike how American Gods is a modernized take on some old myths.
Did you do a review or commentary of any kind regarding the 'Ragnarok' TV series? I watched it all and the ending was... disappointing at the very lleast, but it gave the impression of being laced with a lot of 'canon' mythology. It had characters that i'd not heard of before which were not conjured entirely for the show. (Like Thor's Jotun girlfriend)
Here's what Neil Gaiman's book does, and does very well. At least from my perspective. It stoked an interest in Norse Mythology in me. That led me to your channel, and your books.
Gaiman is an acquired taste and hard to read because of his many “side step” style of writing; it’s funny in the right context but I’ve never been able to appreciate it fully. Have you ever read Frans G Bengtssons book “Röde Orm”? I recognize that you’re a linguist, but you have a fair knowledge of viking myth and culture so I’d love to hear your thoughts of Bengtssons depiction. :)
17:15 You've almost certainly already thought of this, and it's possible multiple people have already brought it up in the comments, but is it possible that references to the Jotunn as 'giants' who're much bigger than the gods and their allies might have something to do with references to 'giants' in the Bible?
For what it’s worth this topic wasn’t inspired by, and isn’t a comment on, recent allegations against Gaiman (which I hadn’t heard about; I don’t follow news about him). My videos tend to be made much earlier than you see them.
Hi Jackson! I’ve always been curious about your opinion of this book! Thanks for your thoughts. I’ve been a big fan of yours and I actually wrote a play/epic poem in the style of the Elder Edda that I’d love your opinion on similarly to this video. Let me know if you’re interested I’d love to chat more!
Also I hope all is well with the evacuation! My cousin lives in Colorado and I was just there and it was scary how you couldn’t see the mountains! Stay safe!
Good luck with the wildfires - hope you're able to go home soon. I did wonder about the timing of this vid! But I had to google whatever is going on with Gaiman just now, because the first I heard of it was a comment video on UA-cam!
Thoughts on this book: I've got it as an audiobook, read by the author - and it's a really enjoyable experience. It's very much angled towards the MCU crowd though, and he admits he's left a lot out.
Edit: Now I've watched the whole thing, I've noticed you look younger and healthier than in the last videos I've watched. Good stuff! Looking after yourself, despite the cigar habit! :D
Only recently found you. Have you written translations of the eddas? I would love to buy those. Despite being about 80% of viking descent i do not speak old norse. But that history has always been very important to my family and i want the stories to pass on to future generations.
What kind of cigar is that?
I read Gaiman's book about five years ago when I retired (HS English teacher whose claim to fame is being "related" to the Oseberg ship, found on my great-grandfather's farm in Tonsberg) and finally discovered what it is like to have time! That introduction has made me much more interested in my heritage and the sagas. Gaiman's Norse Mythology and the TV Show "Vikings" have the same relationship to the eddas: making the information more palatable to the modern consumer. But that can spark a renewed interest in the general public, perhaps leading to further study and more jobs for medievalists.
On a more personal note, thank you for your videos. I thoroughly enjoy them, even if I am too busy in retirement to do the studying necessary to learn Old Norse (I learned enough Old English to translate (with a class) Beowulf: I know that if life even calms down, your videos will help me fulfill a dream. So in anticipation of future success, thank you; you have done a public service with your channel.
I've heard Gaiman say when making this book, a lot of liberties he took was because he primarily wanted to make the stories more entertaining and more digestible in general. He didnt intend for it to be an actual translation of poems, but he did want to inspire readers to go out and look for the actual translations and read them.
He says almost exactly this in the introduction of the book. I listened to the audiobook edition and thought it makes for an incredible introduction to the myths. They’re fun and clear cut, but moving from it to the actual myths is the name of the game.
I honestly don't care much for those kinds of explanations or excuses. Truth is, most people who read the book *won't* go into the *actual* sources. They will read the book, see that it's "based on the real stuff", and take it as facts at face value. Hundreds and hundreds of writers and artists have already done this stuff, and stuff written with these caveats are usually the very origin of misconceptions.
Gaiman is free to write whatever he wants of course, but at least just drop the hypocritical veneer that he's doing this to educate people. He's not. He's using basically readily-written plots with no copyright claims for entertainment. Stories which have the added spice of "being based on real mythology" which only adds to their sale value. It's crass entertainment biz. That's all.
I honestly think much could be resolved by having a different title for the book.
@@jackjohnson2309 Hi, could you tell if the book has something of a sources section for the matter? To guide people towards the actual texts.
People have been taking "liberties' with these stories since ancient times. We sometimes have competing versions of stories, and much of the Norse stuff went through a Christian veneer before it ever got to us. As someone with a history degree, I appreciate authenticity. But Gaiman saying right from the start that he took liberties is fine. He tells you right off. And if people read that book and not the Intro by the author, they have no one to blame but themselves for their lack of knowledge. Sure, you can maybe quibble over the title, but his intent is made clear right two pages in.
Usually, books like this should someone read them at all, get people interested and excited about these subjects and often the real history of these people. I've seen it over and over and even my own journey into history began with reading Greek myths in our elementary school reading primers. Those stories were not the "original" versions by any stretch of the imagination. I also grew up and suffered through the original "Clash of the Titans."😂 However, all those myths did was send me to the library where I'd look up Athena and other Greek gods and start to learn the realities. Then I moved on to this wonderful city named for my favorite goddess. I leaned about Athens, then Thebes, Corinth, and later Rome and Carthage and on and on.
There is nothing wrong with what Gaiman had written here because he says right up front he does take liberties. If someone reads his book and misses reading that, or simply chooses to learn nothing more, that is on them, not Gaiman. He is just doing what writers have done for thousands of years. (Edited typos only, no content changed.)
I'm Swedish and I've always heard the jotuns being referred to as giants (the modern swedish word is "jätte" and is used for giants from any mythology, and as an adjective meaning huge). I used Google Gemini to search for quotes from the eddas that suggest their size.
In Gylfaginning, the jotun Ymir is described as being so enormous that his body formed the mountains and his blood the seas:
"From Ymir's flesh the earth was made, / And from his blood the sea so wide"
In Skáldskaparmál, Thor encounters the giant Skrýmir, whose glove is so large that Thor mistakes it for a cave:
"Thor went into the glove and fell asleep."
To your first point, Ymir's size has nothing to do with what his body parts became. That is too literal, a purely modern reading. Ancient peoples saw the world very differently. They knew water wasn't actual blood and clouds were actual brains. But the association between Ymir, the Personification of Chaos, and the natural world is to tell us the truth about the nature of the world the Norse lived in, one entirely hostile to human existence.
@@ScottJB All that really means is that some of them are very large, it doesn't necessarily mean this is a trait that all of them share. The way the word is often translated, it implies that they are an entire race of giants that are all very large, which is simply not the case.
Don't trust a plagiarism machine for its information. Ai lies and lies confidently.
@@ScottJB extrapolating the meaning of modern cognates to ancient/medieval languages doesn't always work.
Just as an example - in West Slavic languages the word for a giant is 'obr' (Czech, Old Polish), 'olbrzym' (Polish) which are believed to have originated from an Old Slavic word for 'Avar' (the nation). It's clear that at some point West Slavs associated Avars with giants but it obviously doesn't mean that 1500 years ago Slavs believed that Avars actually were giants.
Yeah.
I've always thought of his book as coming from the point of view of someone sitting at a campfire telling stories they learned in their youth. Some things he only half remembers, other things he embellishes.
Its a lot better than what Marvel has done with Norse myth, but its still meant for entertainment, not education.
I read the book, and that's the way I took it. I was entertained. And while the book which is not a historically accurate representation of what we do have, it's probably a good simulacrum of how these stories were passed down by word of mouth. Different story tellers in different regions probably had all kinds of variations of these stories they told, with all sorts of omissions, additions, and embellishments. It was an oral religion after all, there was no written canon of books, or Norse "Bible" to speak of. At least none that we are aware of. So in a way, he did a good job capturing how these stories might have been told and passed down and at least that aspect of the book was in a way accurate.
I feel you underestimate the intent towards norse mythology and european culture
The is only one source for truth about history...
THE BLOOD MEMORY
Correction: MCU. Marvel as in Marvel Comics actually did try to follow the myths to certain and uncertain extents. Likewise, the creation of the Nine Worlds in Marvel Comics is the same as it is in the Eddas. Norse Gods are referred to as Aesir. And like the myths, the comics are rooted in supernatural and magic, whereas in the movies they cowardly just made them aliens with tech.
It's been forever since I read it, but isn't that exactly how he opens the book? By explaining these are stories he liked when he was a kid or something. It's obviously a fiction writing, not really any different than American Gods.
I listened to the audio book, which is narrated by Gaiman himself and that's definitely the vibe I got.
Not for nothing but I am actually thrilled that you worked on American Gods. It's one of my fav series of all time, I absolutely LOVED it. Mr.Wednesday is an unforgettable character.
You mentioned that the idea that the Norse "giants" were large is perhaps the result of likening them to the titans in Greek mythology. Would it be helpful to note that neither Giants nor Titans are really any larger than Vikings, Jets, Steelers, or Packers? It might provide a quick way to get students to mentally unload the term.
I really don’t agree with this. Another word for jötunn is in fact ‘risi’, a giant.
Furthermore there is this story of Thur and this massive giant in Snorris Edda as well as the fact that in folkstories in Germany they are ‘Riese’ (that same word).
I too have heard this claim that the Norse giants were not literally giants it was a metaphorical description of their power, similar to giants in Navajo mythology “the great fears”. But there is direct counter evidence to this in multiple texts. “Am I wrong in thinking that this little fellow is Thor” - The adventures of Thor and Loki in Jötunheim
Well, in a world where the average man is 5'10", a man who is 6'8"(like my grandfather born 1880) looks pretty gigantic. Tall stories tend to grow over time.
@@PhantomGenius Calling someone a "little man" is an old way to insult him and has almost never had anything to do with height.
3:00 -- " ... and of course, I'm a Deadwood fan."
Sound judgement.
Honestly, sort of surprised he could get past the swearing.
He's an adult. That's how he "got past" the swearing. That, and he's interested in accurate representations of history. Life during the time Deadwood occurred was extremely rough. People cursed. Adults should not shrivel up and blow away because of cursing.
Also, it was a fantastic show.
@@bethstaley467 He’s had issues with adult content like that in the past.
I wonder how accurate "Deadwood" was at portraying 'the old west'? I'm sure some historians would punch some significant holes in its portrayal. Not me mind you, I too like Ian McShane (sp) ... ie Tai Lung!
Gaiman’s book Norse Mythology was my starting point of going down this rabbit hole
I've been waiting for this video for six years, Dr.
Gaiman's book led me Prose Edda and your books and your channel. I am happy for it!
That's exactly what happened for me! I discovered the audiobook version, and it's great to fall asleep to, but I'm glad to have learned more about the original(ish) myths and especially the cultures from Dr. Crawford's work.
Love your works Dr. Crawford, but I also love the whimsical telling of the myths by Gaiman. Thanks for taking the time to chew through the book and for your fine works, all of which I've listened to multiple times on audible.
We know Gaiman does this, though. His treatment of Beowulf for the Robert Zemeckis film was pretty loosey goosey and took great liberties with the story (and not for the better).
He did similar things in his short story "Bay Wolf". I disliked the movie and the story. The original "Beowulf" is pretty awesome, though.
@@johnwhelan9663 I know, right? The whole point is that Beowulf's desire for fame go the better of him in the end. It's a universal problem. You don't need Grendel's mother seducing him to make a dragon baby (what?) and then later seducing Wiglaf to continue the cycle of problems. Human hubris will get everybody eventually, especially in a society where a famous legacy is desired above all.
I will say, giving Grendel a chronic ear infection which makes his hearing the singing in Heorot give him actual, physical pain was an interesting way to make him upset with the Scyldings. The actual text has him angry because they're singing hymns, which works in the story because he's a demonic son of Cain, but it does make him a little more pathetic. Also, I appreciated how Grendel is the only one speaking Old English. But that's the only redeeming thing in the whole movie.
I've been living your Great Courses videos, and for what it's worth, all of your books are on my list. 👍
I started getting into Norse Mythology reading by reading this book. I had some pre-knowledge of the subject before reading it. Reading the edda right afterwards, I concluded that Gaiman's book was a modern Edda.
I guess it could be a catalyst, just like Helen Guerber's work, but going directly to the Eddas is a lot better in retrospect
Hi Dr. Crawford - Your critique of the book is fair. EDITED for clarity: Neil Gaiman's book Norse Mythology is entertainment, not scholarship. Gaiman obviously is not an expert in mythology. Most people will not read the introduction and will misinterpret a fictionalized retelling of the original stories as "gospel" of the Nose religion. In the introduction, Gaiman listed some of the sources he used, discussed details of original stories that he adapted, and finally said all mistakes were his own.
My favorite retellings are how Tir lost his hand, Loki becoming the mother of Sleipnir, and Thor and Loki disguised as women at the wedding banquet.
Sorry but to call Norse mythology entertainment is reductive. They are the oral tradition of a culture.
@@iamthe80s49 You misunderstood. I'm referring to the title of Gaiman's book, not the original Norse stories. As you correctly say, the Norse myths are oral tradition. I will edit my post to clarify.
NG is one of the top cultural appropriators and the issue with this is that he's doing it for financial reasons not because he cares about the various cultures he exploits for book deals. The allegations against him are enough to illustrate that he thinks he's above criticism and relies on his fandom to promote his writing regardless
classic Jackson Crawford, "So... here's the thing *Takes drag on cigar*..." love it
17:00 not that the Titans are larger than the Olympians in Greek Mythology either...
There’s also the mostly lost Gigantomachy, which is actually about the Gods facing Giants.
I have the audiobook. I enjoy it for what it is and he makes the stories pop without being overly dramatic. He's a good storyteller.
I would argue he is a poor storyteller with a good imagination and an excellent writing style.
When I was a kid I read "In the Days of Giants" and loved it. Later, I was taking my first course in Old Norse, and we read Snorri's version of the story about the giant building the walls of Asgardr. It was exactly as I remembered it--except for the part about Sleipnir, which had been omitted (or I didn't understand it) in the kid's book. My feeling is that this is just the greatest shaggy-dog story ever, and trying to explain or elaborate on the joke spoils it a little.
Neil clearly wrote this book for those who have watched MCU movies and wanted to find out about the original source for Marvel's Thor, so he didn't approach it with an academic mindset. Much like Danish comic Valhalla, it was just a condensed collection of stories told in a pop culture-friendly way. I kind of got the idea he wasn't pedantic about this when he kept referring to Jotnar as Frost Giants (again, Marvel's term). This book also leaves out some of the best stories from the Eddas. Like Thor's game of insults with his dad and Loki's rap battle against the gods at a dinning table. Much like any Viking metal band, it's a gateway for people who want to learn more about the Viking Age stories.
I like your hats.
As this is the first of your videos that I've watched, I found this a very enjoyable exploration of what seem to be some common pitfalls of translation and interpretation :D Thank you!
I’ve been waiting for this for a long time! Please do a follow up when you finish the book. I really think you’ll appreciate Gaiman’s take on the mead of poets chapter.
This was the first book on Norse Mythology I read back 2016 or 17 I believe. Shortly after when looking into it further is when I found your channel. For that I appreciate it. However, it does still irk me how many unbearable neopagans from my hometown have clearly only read this book or similarly inspired books, and none of the actual sources because they think those are canon. They also constantly try to use those stories with no background or context of the era they're from to show how "oppressive" Christianity is, hence why they're unbearable.
@IFeelQuiteHungry This. Exactly. It's like saying, "this is TRUE rock n roll." There was always an evolution that came prior, and everyone thinks the contemporaries are posers.
i am in love with the phrase "unbearable neopagans" ! hahaha. i'm going to mutter that under my breath when people cut me off in traffic.
I think it was intended to be more like a fairytale, or storybook retelling for a younger audience. There are notes at the end of the book on each story where if I recall he remarks on where he took creative liberties. I read yours and other translations before picking up Neil Gaiman's book but I took it more along that vein. Like the little mermaid in all it's retellings.
I hope you're able to return home soon and those firefighters stay safe out there!
I felt Gaimans work captured the spirit of the myths while appealing to a modern audience. It isn’t supposed to be academic it’s supposed to be entertaining. A lot of people, myself included, found your page because of his work.
The Titans weren't particularly tall, either. They were just the preceding generation of gods, and were largely the parents or relatives of the Olympians. The giants were a separate race who coincidentally also fought the Olympians. I don't know if they're ever mentioned to be notably large, either.
My second book on Norse Mythology was Gaiman's, which I read in Swedish, and I enjoyed to the point that I went on to find other sources on the same topic.
A lot of people have developed an interest in Norse culture because of the Vikings show, and we know how historically accurate that is. 🙄 But they come to social media, want to learn more, and ask where to start. I send them to this book and caution them that a lot of liberties were taken and significant fictional elements were added to make the eddas easier to read. I also recommend that if they’re still interested in learning more after reading this, they should read your translations of the eddas and sagas. An easy, fun pathway into Norse mythology is more likely to be followed than one that most people will lose interest in because so much has been lost, making what’s left difficult to follow.
As I myself have told others on the Norse mythology subreddit, it’s a narrativised telling of Norse myth; as such it is not a robust source or wholly accurate, however it is fun much the same way every show or movie based on mythology is.
Couldn’t be better timing! Just bought the book and was looking for good reviews. Nun better than the main man himself. Thanks dr Crawford!!
Thanks for this. Fortunately for me, I watched your Great Courses lecture series (which I stumbled upon in the Wondrium app - it was excellent!) before listening to the audiobook version of Gaiman's book, so I knew enough to take his interpretations with a large grain of salt.
Oooo, I should try to find that! I had the Wondrium app at one point, but didn't dig into it.
perhaps a jötunn size piece of salt? lol
"Norse Mythology" will always have a special place in my heart. Even though it's not accurate with a tonne of stuff.
I first read it when I was about, 13 or 14 I think (4-5 years ago). And it was the book that got me interested in reading, and in Norse mythology. I've re-read it probably half a dozen times since then. And have done I dont know how much reading into actual Norse mythology, history, and just reading in general.
If it weren't for this book I'd be a completely diffrent person
Some Anglo-Saxon texts use the word 'gigant' (giant) as a synonym for 'eoten'. That's possibly why 'jǫtunn' is translated as giant in modern English.
Could you cite your sources ?
@@lagoth3294 Beowulf.
The sword that Beowulf picks up in the lair of Grendel's mother is described as 'gīganta geweorc' (giants' handiwork).
In Danish and Swedish they are called giants
The Swedish word 'jättar' (giants) aren't that far from 'jotunn' (pardon the limitations of my phone's keyboard)
@@SirHarryFlashman
It looks like the Latin word began to displace the Germanic one quite early.
It would probably be better to leave the word *jotunn* untranslated to avoid confusion.
Your critique is valuable to me. I think the difference between you making a video about hummingbirds and what Gaiman's Norse Mythology book is that he is a writing of stories, and mythology is the stories we tell about the gods. I do think that it would be wise for the forward of the book to make very clear that this is not a scholarly work, but I think it does make sense for a storytelling to have interest in telling these stories in their own way.
Jackson, I’ve enjoyed many of your lectures on Norse mythology. I would not question your expertise. Ive also enjoyed Gaiman’s modern interpretations of these myths, while absolutely supporting your adherence to the surviving texts. My take is he is carrying on a literary tradition started by Snorri, Saxo, and other medieval scholars right up as well as Tolkien and even Marvel Comics. Is that a serve or a disservice should be questioned. Therefore considering you have connections to Gaiman, since you were an advisor on American Gods, why not you guys get together and talk about your different approaches? I would love to see and hear that dialogue.
That part about the "the Norse gods came from Germany" was the only thing I knew about the book beforehand as someone once quoted it to me to "prove" that Norse mythology and the Germanic languages originated in modern day Germany. So I definitely am skeptical to this type of work and the potential damage it causes to the popular understanding of both the Eddas and academic research of the subject.
The Norse and Germanic Dieties are the same (albeit interpreted slightly differently) and they can be traced to proto-indo european sources
Just bought 2 of your books in hardcover. Thank you for always being a great source of agenda free information. Much love from Texas brother keep up the awesome work. ❤
I had a fascination for Norse mythology in the late 70’s and early 80’s. When in high school I wrote a paper comparing Norse and Greek mythology to Christianity about man’s natural knowledge of God. Zeus and the All Father akin to God the Father in the Trinity. It was divinity school and I think I was credited an A. Probably for effort. Certainly wasn’t scholarship.
Thanks for your candor. I think I have his book here somewhere. I recently pulled out some books on Irish and Scottish mythology. Think I will take a gander at learn more about the Edda. It’s been 40 years (+)!
Thanks again.
Thank you for posting this! I have and read this book a few times. I had thought this book was a summary of a lot of Old Norse stories.
I considered it pretty much canon like you said, with a small grain of salt because he isn’t an educator but a fiction writer.
I appreciate clearing up some of the misconceptions that I had arrived at.
I came here via Norse Myths & Magic some years ago. From both channels I have engaged in much book buying and added the Saxon and Angles origins/culture etc upon the English nation.
Honestly, I think your criticism on the book is pretty fair, Dr. Crawford 👍🏼 And I appreciate you being humble in saying that you aren’t the target audience of the book. I for one think it’s a good starting point to learn about the Myths, but as Gaiman himself says in the introduction, going to the actual sources should always be the goal afterwards.
I recommend people also read Ursula Le Guin's review of the book if they're for some reason still considering reading it after watching this video
I love Le Guin
If it is some cocky put down then no
If it's a cocky put down then hell yeah I will
It was neither. And I don't think the review was meant to dissuade readers. She generally praised the book while maintaining criticisms that typify his works.
@@Vykk_Draygo Yeah read it and it was fairly positive, the only thing being that she complains about how the characrs speak - kind of the same complaint Jackson had.
"All mistakes, conclusions jumped to, and odd opinions in this volume are mine and mine alone, and I would not wish anyone else blamed for them. I hope I've retold these stories honestly, but there was still joy and creation in the telling.
That's the joy of myths. The fun comes in telling them yourself - something I warmly encourage you to do, you person reading this. Read the stories in this book, then make them your own"
This book brought me to your work.
I always had an interest in the mythology, and Gaiman's stories made them fun and digestible. Fully knowing that liberties had been taken (because he had explained as much), I went searching for more information on the original source material, and subsequently found this channel, and the books you've written. Been a huge fan since.
Niel Gaiman responded to an acquaintance of mine on Twitter, calling him a "sad little man" or something like that 😅
I don't even know how this book can create any kind of discussion or controversy within Scandinavian studies. It is obvious that it is a fantasy book, or a book in which one can learn about Norse mythology in a slightly amusing, almost child-friendly way. For example, if I introduce my 15-year-old son to the eddas, I know he will lose interest in, say, Norse mythology, but this book will nevertheless whet his appetite for more serious research. I've already seen many scholars criticise this book, but I repeat that it shouldn't even be intended as something to study Norse mythology. It's like reading Terry Pratchett to learn how the universe works....
1000% Agree.
Dr Crawford, youre too nice.
Seeing someone smoking a cigar is so... odd. I'm a young guy, seeing people smoking is already strange, but seeing this modern day American guy dressed into nu-cowboy smoking a cigar feels like this video came from an alternate universe.
Thanks for the cogent and honest review. I agree, primary sources are the best place to start research and study. And the stogie looks delish! (I prefer the Honduran maduros.)
I don't know about the version of the book you have, but I think I remember (don't have it on hand to check unfortunately) mine having a good preface where it said pretty clearly it was a retelling with liberties, not necessarily copying the source. At least that's how I've seen the book
In reference to the point at roughly the ten minute mark, about how sparse Norse mythology is, and that in the Edda's only Odin, Thor, Freyja, and Loki get much "screen time," so to speak. I wonder how much of that might be due to the fact that all this was only written down a couple of centuries after the end of the so-called Viking Age, after the people in Iceland and Scandinavia had already converted to Christianity and thus become literate. It's really a crying shame that almost everything we know about Norse mythology comes at that remove. One of the great things about Greek and Roman mythology is that the abundant stories about the gods of Olympus, and the human heroes in their stories, was that the Greeks and Romans were literate peoples during their pagan periods. They wrote about their pagan gods _during_ the period when those gods still had worshipers, and the religions built around them still had rituals and ceremonies and rites that were being actively practiced at that time. By the time the Icelanders were able to write about the Norse gods and heroes, and record these stories so that they weren't lost for all time, they were writing about something that had already passed into history. And then, of course, there are the variations on those gods and their stories, as other Germanic peoples worshiped them or told stories of them. It makes me wonder how many tales and traditions simply never got written down, and faded from human memory. I'd bet that what got written down is just the tip of the iceberg.
I found your work through Gaiman's book actually. I enjoyed that feeling of oral storytelling (helped that I first listened to it as an audiobook), but I felt confused by his explanations of the All-Father title just a chapter before mentioning Odin's own parents and siblings, or "Uncle Mimir" as you mention. Wanted some of the historical context that you conveyed and to get a more accurate picture of how the stories were originally told. Glad to have read both of your works and to hear your thoughts on Gaiman's adaptation.
Uncle can be used to refer to a middle aged stranger
I was just reading the Roger Lancelyn Green version and he says Mimir was literally Bestla's brother and Odin's uncle. So I'm not sure what the source of this is, but it's not Gaiman.
I never got past the front cover illustration, actually. That image might not be the fault of Gaiman, though.
@@acaciabaker5935 So stunning, so brave, nobody has ever used that irrelevant and baseless slogan before. In a Western country no less.
@@acaciabaker5935 So the publisher chose that slogan for a cover? That's even worse. Unless I'm still missing something.
@@acaciabaker5935 You must define "western country" differently from the rest of the world.
@@acaciabaker5935 She's Icelandic and is therefore western. Idk why you're lying
Gaimen is a storyteller not a scholar. That's not to say he is uneducated but to say he is not an educator. But you are correct his work could be looked at as cannon and not historically based fiction.
I love how you compared the circumstances required to have kids to a Rube Goldberg machine lol
i preordered this book and if my memory is correct i got it in the same package as your Poetic Edda translation, and i was excited to read Gaiman's book as i loved American Gods, but sadly i got a misprint that only goes to page 35, before starting over at page 1... i never got around to picking up another copy, loved your book though!
I also wondered about Odin's reference in Gaiman's book, to Mimir as “Uncle”. I have seen speculation that Mimir may have been the brother of Bestla, but I think the reference was Thurastru or some other alternative systemization.
Mimir is simply a personification of memory. We still use personification in poetry today. Many other characters and giants and gods are also personifications of ideas central to that peoples’ worldview
@@robertjarrell7276I always thought of mimir as being part of Odin's sacrifice for obtaining knowledge and that knowledge being taken advantage of and his giving nature turning to vengeance.
Norse Mythology really focuses on paths in life that bring pain, conflict, war, and vengeance.
One does not like their ideas being stolen and a giving person can become a vengeful one.
While not a norse myth specialist by any stretch, i definitely recognized a lot of liberties taken in this story. I think the best way to define this work would be a reamagining, and i think it has the potential to help create interest in norse myth from peopke who may have had their interests peaked from media like marvel or god of war for example. I also don't think works like these ought to be hated as much because each individual will have their own level of interest. One person's interest could start at marvel and lead them all the way to this channel here and their satisfied, while another person's interest could lead them to a phd in norse language and myth.
Years ago I read Kevin Crossley-Holland’s version of Norse mythology and it was a bit of a struggle to get through it. But I did.
I read Neil Gaiman’s version and I noticed a couple of inaccurate bits and I agree about the Anglicization. I suggested it as an intro to the Norse myths to a couple of people-with the caveat that there are inaccurate parts. But it was a lot more readable than the Kevin Crossley-Holland one.
I agree about the modern interior monologue thing too.
Mostly I think he should’ve just called it “Tales from Norse Mythology” by analogy with Andrew Lang’s “Tales from Greek Mythology”.
I enjoyed the S4C adaptation of the Mabinogion - but it wasn’t the Mabinogion. That was more obvious because it was in a different medium, and they didn’t call it the Mabinogion.
Curiously I was just thinking about the problem of translating names.
I think where there are familiar English names (Freya, Odin, Thor) it would be pedantic not to use them.
Of course this debate will never end.
I think Gaiman was approaching the topic as a writer of speculative fiction, unfortunately modern day alt religion like to turn purely literary materials into religious texts and treat it as "authentic" tradition. I think a pot of people treated the book as source material and probably will look no further.
I'd compare to Bullfinches Mythology in relation to Greek history
Sound level is great on this vid.
I always just figured that the assumption of the Jotnar being giants was because there are a couple characters in the stories that are described as giant, the ones I can think of being Ymir and Skrymir (I'm guessing the closeness in names isn't a coincidence?)
17:00 In swedish the general word for Giant is just Jätte, just as in- and from Jötun too. Not sure, isn't it already used like that it old/middle english often too? Like Eotens can be big, and Eotinde Ring for Stone Henge etc. Maybe it is from Ymir at least being big. And like, his corpse becoming the mountains and stuff, paralleling common themes in later folklore about jättar, where they are often used as explanation for how islands, boulders, cliffs and stuff came to be thown or raised where they are.
I believe Gaiman is doing a merging of childhood reading of Roger Lancelyn Green’s Myths of the Norsemen, and Snorri Sturluson.
As a high school teacher of reluctant readers, what I always need is someone telling tales, myths and legends as entertaining stories, not as direct translations or analyses. You know, modern readers expect more dialogue and internal narrative and clear motives and lots of description.
Assuming what "modern readers" want makes you a less than great teacher
@@bumbozambumbazebulon6738 I guess so!
@@bumbozambumbazebulon6738 Popular media contradicts your attempt at trolling. Therefore, that makes you a less than great troll.
A minor comment on what you mentioned about classical mythology. Not only did the Greek gods fight Titans, they also waged a war against the Giants (or in Ancient Greek Γίγαντες, which is ultimately where the English word “giant” is derived from). So it just makes more sense for old translators to have adapted this bit of Greek mythology and transposed it on their understanding of Norse myth and jǫtunn (which from my personal and not unlimited research seems to be cognate with the English “eat”).
I did feel the stories were a bit too embellished but it was a fun read overall. However i never imagined anyone would take it as canon... I guess it must be because i knew it couldn't be, since it was a book by a known fantasy author and it didn't mention anything about the original sources on the cover. I mean it's presented as an original work by a single author who is known to have written other things with these characters. I never imagined anyone could just publish a book called Norse mythology that would be canon without being legally bound to mention something like "a translation from the Edas" or something like that. But i guess that's because i have a science background, so quoting sources is sort of second nature to me and i just assumed it would be normal critical thinking to assume a book that doesn't can only be a work of fiction based on the Norse myths. Now thinking about it i realize that mist people don't do that kind of evaluation, so i see why you'd be worried people take it as canon.
Good luck with the fires, Dr. Jackson. As far as the book and an Old Norse enthusiast, I enjoyed it. But I went straight in knowing that this book was more meant for the entertainment side, so while I was going through it, it didn't irk me that he wasn't adapting them the way the the sources may show. I've consumed a lot of his work, and he twisted some nice British wit into the stories. If you were to ask me if this would be an academic source or a source for heathens trying to learn, I would definitely say no.
I was introduced to Norse and Greek mythology at an early age, my dad used to tell me and my brother bedtime stories about the old gods and heroes. Where he got it from I don't know but I do think he was trying to introduce us to a rich heritage of literature and he was a very good story teller as well.
A bit unrelated subject, but I'm very interested in your thoughts on "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim", It's heavily influenced by Norse Mythology and I think it would be so interesting to watch😌
And great video as usual!
Great video keep up the good work
I thoroughly enjoy both of you and your work. Please carry on.
“Uncle Mimir.”
This needs to become a meme.
Would love to hear the rest of your opinion on it. I had recently started reading this book as well.
I like how the embossed letters on the book cover cast shadows in the afternoon sun! So that's something.
I read your books before I read his. While yours are more informative and historical, his were a fun story to read. I imagined and old village elder telling one of these chapters around a campfire. It made for a fun read....
Watched the vid; never heard of you beforehand - Really enjoyed the neutral with a flair of personality way you construct your view. I doth Sub, kind Sir.
I would be interested in your review of the Norse pieces of Bullfinch.
A note of the perception of norse "giants" being liken to greek titans is that the greek titans also aren't particularly tall or taller than the gods and neither are the other group that the gods fight, the actual giants. You can see this in the iconography like the altar of Pergamon as they are always represented as being the same size as gods and heroes. There is a notion in classical times that people used to be taller in the past, if I'm not misremmebering the ideal size for a hero was belive to be around 4 meters (13ft.) so maybe that's how the misconception that giants were belive to be extraordinary tall came to be.
First season of American Gods was great.
Yeah, that season taught me a lot about my white privilege.
@@iamthe80s49 Lol
I'm kinda curious how old the misconception between "jotun" and "giant" is, since the word "jätte" in the Swedish language litterally means "giant" and is also used as a word to emphasize something's bigness. Does it really come from a misunderstanding of the ancient norse sources, or is it more just a case of the meaning of the word changing over time when the norse beliefs were replaced with Christianity, and then the new meaning is applied to the old stories? And perhaps both the gods and the jotun were thought of as larger than life beings, perhaps not even in their physical form but just in their presence? I'm sure if someone tells you a scary story about the "Jotun" when you're little, you'll imagine them as large and imposing creatures.
I am both a fan of Gaiman's work (though I admit I haven't had a chance to read this book yet) and yours but I really view them as two totally different things. Gaiman has been a favorite author of mine for many years. But the books I've read by him are fiction and even though this book isn't marketed as fiction, I figured he would take certain liberties as a well-known fiction author to fill in gaps that are left in what is known due to not all the old Norse stories having been documented thoroughly. I think the people who will read this book will 1) know that he is a well-known fiction author and 2) for the most part not be motivated to look into old Norse stories in depth. Being marketed toward that crowd I would MUCH prefer these folks to assume that his re-telling is "fact" than for them to delve into the world of white-supremacist re-tellings of Norse mythology.
This video comes across as very harsh, but I do understand why and I think you did okay at explaining why you feel that way. We all have certain things that just get under our skin and this appears to be yours!
For those who do watch videos like yours, we will know that most (likely ALL) re-tellings are not going to be 100% accurate, because they weren't documented until way later and so much information was missing. And we will, from there, look into the historical texts that are available in more depth (by reading/watching your work among other things)!
Thank you for all that you do and much luck with the wildfires. It is a sad thing to see the destruction and all the lives (human and not) that are affected.
You mention that there isn't much in the way of describing Jötnar as giants, but I do wonder then how you would approach the saga in which Thor and Loki stay the evening in Skrymir's glove, mistaking it for a hall?
Skrymir is described as a "risi", not "jotun". A risi is a creature that is described as being of enormous size, unlike a jotun.
@@ACruelPicture Which translation and which poem are you referring to, because I cannot find anywhere that "risi" is attributed to Skrymir.
The whole story is about deception and illusion.
Skrymyr could be a hobbit for all we know.
He's also probably an avatar of Loki.
strikes me as being rendered as a consequence of reanalysing the last vowel through the phono-orthographic structures surrounding the English STRUT vowel. Weird stuff happens with that when interfacing with other phonologies
Dr Crawford your humility and humble nature are admirable, but I don't think you give yourself enough credit if you sincerely believe yourself to be "some nobody on the internet". As someone who has been in the Norse pagan religious community for almost a decade, allow me to tell you that almost everyone I've ever spoken to hold you and your work in very high regard and you and your works are almost universally considered to be the benchmark for scholarly academic standards for those of us wanting an authentic and objective analysis of Old Norse literature as we learn more about our ancestors and their stories as a means of learning more about ourselves in the sense of where we come from and becoming more familiar with the ancient history that plays such a pivotal role in our spiritual beliefs. Dr. Crawford, you are greatly appreciated. 🖤
i'd attempted to read faulkes' translation of the prose edda in 2016 and struggled to retain any of the information so read gaiman's norse mythology in early 2017 because i knew the simplified versions would be easier to remember, immediately picked faulkes' edda back up after finishing gaiman's NM and flew through it! i think it's a good starting off point if people are struggling with the source material or if they know they only have a surface level interest in NM. i haven't reread gaiman's version since reading the eddas and sagas but have recommended it to my friends and family who wanted to know why i'm so into the mythology 😅 to be fair the criticisms you have about it would also annoy me now too lol
Thank you for the insight, it was very useful. Enjoy your summer as best you can, given the circumstances
I would love to hear your take on the show The Last Kingdom. It is a long watch but it's a wonderful show and isn't overtly fantastical in my opinion. I think it might be a bit more digestible for you in that regard. Just a thought, either way love your videos as always Mr. Crawford. Please keep them up and i'll always return for a watch.
I enjoyed the book as entertainment. But I would rate it just above Marvel if you want to learn about the old gods. I think and I could very well be wrong that much gets lost in translation, and what translations you are taking the source from. This is why I really enjoy your books, I want to someday learn actual old Norse and read it that way.
The jotunar like the titanes interact with the gods, sometimes peacefully and sometimes as antagonists.
I usually enjoy Gaiman. I tried reading this book and indeed, as you say, it's tone was uneven and the style inconsistent. That killed my ability to suspend myself in the stories. I gave up on it before I read the first 50 pages.
This book holds a special place in my heart because it has been an entry point for my kids into the Norse stories. Your criticisms are of course valid, but the way see is it is more of an evolution of modern folklore rather than an adaptation of the original eddas, not unlike how American Gods is a modernized take on some old myths.
Did you do a review or commentary of any kind regarding the 'Ragnarok' TV series? I watched it all and the ending was... disappointing at the very lleast, but it gave the impression of being laced with a lot of 'canon' mythology. It had characters that i'd not heard of before which were not conjured entirely for the show. (Like Thor's Jotun girlfriend)
Here's what Neil Gaiman's book does, and does very well. At least from my perspective. It stoked an interest in Norse Mythology in me. That led me to your channel, and your books.
Gaiman is an acquired taste and hard to read because of his many “side step” style of writing; it’s funny in the right context but I’ve never been able to appreciate it fully.
Have you ever read Frans G Bengtssons book “Röde Orm”? I recognize that you’re a linguist, but you have a fair knowledge of viking myth and culture so I’d love to hear your thoughts of Bengtssons depiction. :)
..really appreciate
Your work
Many thanks..
17:15 You've almost certainly already thought of this, and it's possible multiple people have already brought it up in the comments, but is it possible that references to the Jotunn as 'giants' who're much bigger than the gods and their allies might have something to do with references to 'giants' in the Bible?