This game is exremely balanced. There are many logbooks from experienced players (700+ plays) and winning percentages are almost 50-50. This is definitely a game which gets better when you play it more. There is so many strategies and tactics to figure out. Extreme simplification is that the Carthage is more powerful at the beginning (and you have to understand how to exploit that) and the Rome will become stronger when the game procresses.
I agree with this. I played my first game with a friend yesterday. As Carthage I dominated the battles early (but still had some difficulty turning over many italian provinces). Rome grew in power and came to dominate in Spain, etc. Carthage won with the last two cards on the final turn. I'd say if you had a more able/experienced person playing as the Romans, it would be very tough for carthage to win.
I played this version during the Consimworld Expo this year. Love the option to play the First Punic War. Fun! I played the Valley Games reprint from the original AH version. I want to play this again here in Manila. And those miniatures need painting!
I backed Phalanx's recent kickstarter for Successors and this is an option as an add on in the pledge manager. All the other reviews I've seen for this have been quite positive so I was going to get both, now you are making me question that decision....
Like we said we played it once and this is some initial thoughts. It's VERY well received so we think there's something maybe we're missing from what is essentially a classic.
@@ThePlayersAid True, but it could also be a case of other reviewers overpraising it. I will wait for a follow up video from you guys. Though it doesn't sound like you are that keen to replay it in a hurry, so not sure if that verdict will come any time soon lol.
I didn't know there was a KS for Successors. Thanks for mentioning it here! Lost my old copy many years ago and was hoping a new updated one would come along eventually.Will definitely pick it up when it hits retail.
I backed HH as a KS, but backed out of Successors bc I just didn't think I'd ever get enough players. Still, wished I backed the KS anyway as it looks like a piece of art, like HH.
A new funding campaign is currently underway on Gamefound for a slightly revised version, but the new proposed solo mode leaves something to be desired, as you actually take turns managing both sides...
I think you guys need to try this one again, like others I think the game is fairly balanced. My first play my opponent as Carthage marched over the alps down into Rome and crushed me. In the next game I was Carthage and despite holding out longer lost. (maybe my opponent is just a better player). Contrary to your eastern front analogy, I felt there was a swing with Carthage stronger earlier, but it then swinging in Rome's favour. Have fun and keep up the great work.
Final thought: I think if you do get significantly behind, this game can, as you say be a bit of a slog. Your sort of dying a slow painful death as your opponent overpowers you and strangles the life from you. So your opinions on that are not wrong.
Can’t displace Hannibal, he just dies... but I’ve rarely played a game where Hannibal didn’t wipe out (through double envelopment) at least one Roman army (like 5+ CU’s)
I played it again last weekend. Hannibal killed so many Roman soldiers... I tried to annihilate his army to get rid of him and he was down to 1 unit, then 3, then 2, then back to 6 then 3-4. Intense fighting and the number of Roman casualties was scary. But it di keep hannibal busy until Rome got her own good general going.
Its interesting to see the perspective of new players to an AH classic, including limited historical knowledge. That's us for pretty much every game in our collection, except for those handful of games you've played the crap out of. I think the best thing this version of Hannibal has going for it is the extra event cards and extra generals, including Phillip. Getting a dedicated Hamilcar game is great too, as the previous version came out of an old AH General magazine. The negatives are the silly miniatures (get the wooden generals upgrade kit instead), the dice (it seems to complicate things and harder to calculate odds), and unusual counter mix (5s do not flip to 3s, 10s do not flip to 9s). Glad you liked the combat cards! In Washington's War it was replaced by dice and I think that is ...boring. This game is one of my few 10s, partly due to my love of the historical period. It is also a popular tournament game at WBC.
Famously Hannibal almost made it to Rome. He ran out of resources and requested reinforcements from Carthage. That request was denied. It would have been a very different history had he received those reinforcements.
I wonder if a scenario could be created so that if Carthage controlled certain parts of the board by a point in the game, could an injection of reinforcements be added to "simulate" history?
1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but historically it was a tight fight, with Hannibal kicking Romans at Cannae so hard, they we almost got Carthaginian Empire instead of Roman in history books. 2. I wonder if there are cards that show how Carthage herself messed up Hannibal's plans with poor support. 3. And what about Hamilcar? Hanni's Dad was a big deal after all. 4. How about the user friendliness of the components? Do you think there is a need for a bigger map? 5. There is also upgraded edition due next year, I suggest to contact Phalanx for advanced copy ;)
1 You are right 2 It is hard to support overseas and tehre are politcal cards where the political leaders limit what militries can do while active 3 That is the Fist Punic War included (in and around Sicily) 4 Not really. There are holding boxes for armies
Dont give up on this game! The scenario and playbook are new adds to this edition of the game and while not done poorly, the playbook can be confusing and/or unhelpful and there's a bunch of scenarios that seem to just be tossed in for the hell of it. While the board and game components upgrade is nice, the original game amazing. Carthage is way stronger than they may first appear. In order to sail properly, you should focus on using certain strategy cards to flip Carales in Cors. - Sard. and/or Lilybaeum and Agrigentum in Sicily as they provide an additional -1 modifier. Add that -1 to Mago's Special Ability and always sail from New Carthage and Carthage and you're guaranteed to make it on anything other than a 6 and will never sink and that's before any of the three cards which will give an additional -1. It is typically infeasible to sail anywhere in mainland Italy proper (reflecting history) aside from Croton and Tarentum perhaps. Also, think about sending Mago and only one CU as an annoyance force and make Rome respond to you. If you sail with 1 or less CU you get another -1 modifier.
As someone else also said, you're not playing the battles correctly. If you like them now, lol, just wait til you do it right. It gives Hannibal an increased advantage which seems to be what you were hoping for. Also the only places you reallly want to siege are Syracuse (as Rome, after Carthage plays the card) and Carthage or Rome as those will win you the game. Other walled cities are not worth the squeeze typically.
Keep playing it guy's. Games I've played have been very balanced & gone down right to the last turn, often very last card! I think the game definitely suffers from analysis paralysis & favours the Roman's to a degree, but a good player playing as Carthage is scary!
I missed grabbing this game from Avalon Hill way way back in the day, and always regretted missing it because We The People was a blast. Then I kept missing the reprints. Finally this version came out, and low and behold, I grabbed a copy from a Cool Stuff "ding and dent" deal, and scored a super deal a few months ago. After all that, still haven't gotten this one to the table! Lol! I've read and seen mixed reviews myself. Phalanx makes some great games component wise, but someone commented once that "they'd rather have a great game with mediocre to poor components than a mediocre to poor game with great components". I'd have to agree with that. Hoping this isn't a mediocre to poor game with great components.(?)
Robert Moffitt it’s an amazing game... BUT! It’s very swingy, so you can’t take it too seriously (game can turn on a dime) and brutal things will happen due to luck. That being said, it’s VERY fun and it is definitely deserving of multiple playings because there is strategy despite the luck factor. Also, never end the game early because it’s never really in the bag (mostly). Also with this deluxe edition, you should NOT include the extra cards because it impacts the reshuffle rate for the deck which is actually timed pretty precisely to happen at certain points in the game.
ummm carthage is very strong in this game, I am surprised you lost rome will perhaps gain the upper hand eventually but in tournaments rome and carhage win approximately equally and in my exp vs new players carthage almost always wins
You want comments about the game? Be careful what you wish for cuz here it comes! :) 1. One tiny thing you missed in the combat is that initiative can swing from side to side. If you have the initiative, you play the battle card and your opponent has to follow the suit. So if you lose the initiative, you have to stop playing Left Flank, Left Flank, Left Flank and this time, follow your opp's lead. After every battle card, you have to roll against your general's tactical rating and with Hannibal (tactical rating of 4) you have to roll a 5 or 6 to lose initiative. But guess what? I kept rolling 5s and 6s and Hannibal ended up losing a big battle to a mediocre Roman general. Also, you didn't mention that the double envelopment tactic is high risk high reward. If your opponent is able to match your double envelopment card, you automatically lose intiative but if you win the battle from double envelopment, you can potentially massacre the entire army. Also, winning the battle via probe makes for a weak victory as far as losses on your opponent is concerned. Yes, the battle system is great but a bit time consuming. The game 1989 uses a similar mechanic too. 2. I played the Valley Games version of this game and I appreciated the graphics in this game more because it's much easier here to keep track of who controls what province, etc. In the old version, it was difficult to tell the provinces apart in italy especially. In this version, there's that track which makes it real easy. I also didn't play with the miniatures in this game because yes, i couldn't read the numbers. And unpainted, the miniatures are unattractive. Also one thing you could do is instead of putting the CUs on the board next to the miniature, just put them off board with the card that corresponds to the general 3. When I played the game before this version came out, I LOVED it. I thought it had a lot of flavor and the political aspects were really appealing to me. I love my wargames with a lot of politics mixed in. What made me fall in love with the game is the provincial control and how battles affect that control. Reminds me a lot of Sword of Rome. 4. The flip side of the map is actually for the First Punic War scenario. In that game, the naval aspect is more articulated. I havent' played that game yet. 5. There is a great how to play video by Heavy Cardboard on how to play both First and Second Punic War scenarios This is it....for now. I would love to come out to Indianapolis to play this game with you guys. What I find is that this game is fun, is fairly simple, but can run looonngggg......very tiring
I have all the Avalon Hill Card Driven games got them as they came out. This is in my view the best, it takes a couple of plays to see that the fact you share tbe same deck of cards results i dinamic game flow. You do not have the I can not play this until he plays the De Gaul card effect in some of the latter games. I have always played with the Second Edition rule that alows the Carthaginians to p,ay on if Hannable dies. The Cartbaginian can win if he cand get to Italy and remove romes Italian support. The random Roman leaders makes no two vames the same. Its a classic the cleanest and the best. The fantastic four player Sucessers runs it very close flew.
Fred Manzo over at Boardgaming Way has some good articles on this game: theboardgamingway.com/seizing-the-strategic-initiative-in-hannibal-rome-vs-carthage-a-boardgaming-way-analysis/ Since you guys are going to WBC, i recall there being an annual tournament,. Those players should offer some insights into the game. I agree its not Contemporary, and its not a game to game. Its recreating tight scenario with cards. I would think that actually converting the game to a Sekigahra style block game would be great idea, But of course there would not be Seki with out Hannibal. :) Here is a great write up about the cards on BGG boardgamegeek.com/thread/939976/hrvc-hannibal-rome-vs-cards from the General: Hannibal is a heavyweight champion, but he cannot lead the fight with his jaw all the time * Avoid battle unless you must fight. Have flanking generals intercept Romans before they start battles with Hannibal Hover near friendly Tribes , Open up secondary threats on Roman possessions in Sicily. These are all important methods of lessening the number of opportuni¬ ties that Rome gets to nail Hannibal Take a page from history: Hannibal did not command every battle in southern Italy in which Carthage fought.
Yes - no air power during the Punic wars. They may have had a few helicopters for the elephants, but that's about it!
Im getting this with the new Successors Kickstarter coming out this October! Can't wait!
This game is exremely balanced. There are many logbooks from experienced players (700+ plays) and winning percentages are almost 50-50. This is definitely a game which gets better when you play it more. There is so many strategies and tactics to figure out. Extreme simplification is that the Carthage is more powerful at the beginning (and you have to understand how to exploit that) and the Rome will become stronger when the game procresses.
I agree with this. I played my first game with a friend yesterday. As Carthage I dominated the battles early (but still had some difficulty turning over many italian provinces). Rome grew in power and came to dominate in Spain, etc. Carthage won with the last two cards on the final turn. I'd say if you had a more able/experienced person playing as the Romans, it would be very tough for carthage to win.
It was the Roman Republic gents. Love your videos.
I played this version during the Consimworld Expo this year. Love the option to play the First Punic War. Fun! I played the Valley Games reprint from the original AH version. I want to play this again here in Manila. And those miniatures need painting!
I backed Phalanx's recent kickstarter for Successors and this is an option as an add on in the pledge manager. All the other reviews I've seen for this have been quite positive so I was going to get both, now you are making me question that decision....
Like we said we played it once and this is some initial thoughts. It's VERY well received so we think there's something maybe we're missing from what is essentially a classic.
@@ThePlayersAid True, but it could also be a case of other reviewers overpraising it. I will wait for a follow up video from you guys. Though it doesn't sound like you are that keen to replay it in a hurry, so not sure if that verdict will come any time soon lol.
I didn't know there was a KS for Successors. Thanks for mentioning it here!
Lost my old copy many years ago and was hoping a new updated one would come along eventually.Will definitely pick it up when it hits retail.
I backed HH as a KS, but backed out of Successors bc I just didn't think I'd ever get enough players. Still, wished I backed the KS anyway as it looks like a piece of art, like HH.
A new funding campaign is currently underway on Gamefound for a slightly revised version, but the new proposed solo mode leaves something to be desired, as you actually take turns managing both sides...
I haven't tried this or Washington's War. Looking forward to your other videos on this game.
I think you guys need to try this one again, like others I think the game is fairly balanced. My first play my opponent as Carthage marched over the alps down into Rome and crushed me. In the next game I was Carthage and despite holding out longer lost. (maybe my opponent is just a better player).
Contrary to your eastern front analogy, I felt there was a swing with Carthage stronger earlier, but it then swinging in Rome's favour.
Have fun and keep up the great work.
Also a tip: you can put your unit forces on the general cards, so you don't have to stack the general ontop of a stack and have him fall over.
Final thought: I think if you do get significantly behind, this game can, as you say be a bit of a slog. Your sort of dying a slow painful death as your opponent overpowers you and strangles the life from you.
So your opinions on that are not wrong.
Can’t displace Hannibal, he just dies... but I’ve rarely played a game where Hannibal didn’t wipe out (through double envelopment) at least one Roman army (like 5+ CU’s)
I played it again last weekend. Hannibal killed so many Roman soldiers... I tried to annihilate his army to get rid of him and he was down to 1 unit, then 3, then 2, then back to 6 then 3-4. Intense fighting and the number of Roman casualties was scary. But it di keep hannibal busy until Rome got her own good general going.
thank you i picked up a copy for 30.00 used. i am going to try it.
This is a great game hands down and one of the best war games out there, with Carthage I have only had a win by the slightest margin
Its interesting to see the perspective of new players to an AH classic, including limited historical knowledge. That's us for pretty much every game in our collection, except for those handful of games you've played the crap out of. I think the best thing this version of Hannibal has going for it is the extra event cards and extra generals, including Phillip. Getting a dedicated Hamilcar game is great too, as the previous version came out of an old AH General magazine. The negatives are the silly miniatures (get the wooden generals upgrade kit instead), the dice (it seems to complicate things and harder to calculate odds), and unusual counter mix (5s do not flip to 3s, 10s do not flip to 9s). Glad you liked the combat cards! In Washington's War it was replaced by dice and I think that is ...boring. This game is one of my few 10s, partly due to my love of the historical period. It is also a popular tournament game at WBC.
Famously Hannibal almost made it to Rome. He ran out of resources and requested reinforcements from Carthage. That request was denied. It would have been a very different history had he received those reinforcements.
I wonder if a scenario could be created so that if Carthage controlled certain parts of the board by a point in the game, could an injection of reinforcements be added to "simulate" history?
1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but historically it was a tight fight, with Hannibal kicking Romans at Cannae so hard, they we almost got Carthaginian Empire instead of Roman in history books.
2. I wonder if there are cards that show how Carthage herself messed up Hannibal's plans with poor support.
3. And what about Hamilcar? Hanni's Dad was a big deal after all.
4. How about the user friendliness of the components? Do you think there is a need for a bigger map?
5. There is also upgraded edition due next year, I suggest to contact Phalanx for advanced copy ;)
1 You are right
2 It is hard to support overseas and tehre are politcal cards where the political leaders limit what militries can do while active
3 That is the Fist Punic War included (in and around Sicily)
4 Not really. There are holding boxes for armies
Dont give up on this game! The scenario and playbook are new adds to this edition of the game and while not done poorly, the playbook can be confusing and/or unhelpful and there's a bunch of scenarios that seem to just be tossed in for the hell of it. While the board and game components upgrade is nice, the original game amazing. Carthage is way stronger than they may first appear. In order to sail properly, you should focus on using certain strategy cards to flip Carales in Cors. - Sard. and/or Lilybaeum and Agrigentum in Sicily as they provide an additional -1 modifier. Add that -1 to Mago's Special Ability and always sail from New Carthage and Carthage and you're guaranteed to make it on anything other than a 6 and will never sink and that's before any of the three cards which will give an additional -1. It is typically infeasible to sail anywhere in mainland Italy proper (reflecting history) aside from Croton and Tarentum perhaps. Also, think about sending Mago and only one CU as an annoyance force and make Rome respond to you. If you sail with 1 or less CU you get another -1 modifier.
As someone else also said, you're not playing the battles correctly. If you like them now, lol, just wait til you do it right. It gives Hannibal an increased advantage which seems to be what you were hoping for. Also the only places you reallly want to siege are Syracuse (as Rome, after Carthage plays the card) and Carthage or Rome as those will win you the game. Other walled cities are not worth the squeeze typically.
Keep playing it guy's.
Games I've played have been very balanced & gone down right to the last turn, often very last card!
I think the game definitely suffers from analysis paralysis & favours the Roman's to a degree, but a good player playing as Carthage is scary!
So what happened?
No review about this game? :P
I missed grabbing this game from Avalon Hill way way back in the day, and always regretted missing it because We The People was a blast. Then I kept missing the reprints. Finally this version came out, and low and behold, I grabbed a copy from a Cool Stuff "ding and dent" deal, and scored a super deal a few months ago. After all that, still haven't gotten this one to the table! Lol! I've read and seen mixed reviews myself. Phalanx makes some great games component wise, but someone commented once that "they'd rather have a great game with mediocre to poor components than a mediocre to poor game with great components". I'd have to agree with that. Hoping this isn't a mediocre to poor game with great components.(?)
Robert Moffitt it’s an amazing game... BUT! It’s very swingy, so you can’t take it too seriously (game can turn on a dime) and brutal things will happen due to luck. That being said, it’s VERY fun and it is definitely deserving of multiple playings because there is strategy despite the luck factor. Also, never end the game early because it’s never really in the bag (mostly). Also with this deluxe edition, you should NOT include the extra cards because it impacts the reshuffle rate for the deck which is actually timed pretty precisely to happen at certain points in the game.
Fortunately, you can play without the minis
ummm carthage is very strong in this game, I am surprised you lost
rome will perhaps gain the upper hand eventually but in tournaments rome and carhage win approximately equally and in my exp vs new players carthage almost always wins
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FIRST!!!
I almost picked this game up at GenCon this year...
Almost.
This game is a Masterpiece.
You want comments about the game? Be careful what you wish for cuz here it comes! :)
1. One tiny thing you missed in the combat is that initiative can swing from side to side. If you have the initiative, you play the battle card and your opponent has to follow the suit. So if you lose the initiative, you have to stop playing Left Flank, Left Flank, Left Flank and this time, follow your opp's lead. After every battle card, you have to roll against your general's tactical rating and with Hannibal (tactical rating of 4) you have to roll a 5 or 6 to lose initiative. But guess what? I kept rolling 5s and 6s and Hannibal ended up losing a big battle to a mediocre Roman general. Also, you didn't mention that the double envelopment tactic is high risk high reward. If your opponent is able to match your double envelopment card, you automatically lose intiative but if you win the battle from double envelopment, you can potentially massacre the entire army. Also, winning the battle via probe makes for a weak victory as far as losses on your opponent is concerned. Yes, the battle system is great but a bit time consuming. The game 1989 uses a similar mechanic too.
2. I played the Valley Games version of this game and I appreciated the graphics in this game more because it's much easier here to keep track of who controls what province, etc. In the old version, it was difficult to tell the provinces apart in italy especially. In this version, there's that track which makes it real easy. I also didn't play with the miniatures in this game because yes, i couldn't read the numbers. And unpainted, the miniatures are unattractive. Also one thing you could do is instead of putting the CUs on the board next to the miniature, just put them off board with the card that corresponds to the general
3. When I played the game before this version came out, I LOVED it. I thought it had a lot of flavor and the political aspects were really appealing to me. I love my wargames with a lot of politics mixed in. What made me fall in love with the game is the provincial control and how battles affect that control. Reminds me a lot of Sword of Rome.
4. The flip side of the map is actually for the First Punic War scenario. In that game, the naval aspect is more articulated. I havent' played that game yet.
5. There is a great how to play video by Heavy Cardboard on how to play both First and Second Punic War scenarios
This is it....for now. I would love to come out to Indianapolis to play this game with you guys. What I find is that this game is fun, is fairly simple, but can run looonngggg......very tiring
@Dianikes the Spartan My mistake ... it was by Harsh Rules.
ua-cam.com/video/ed8WC3HAI8g/v-deo.html
You tell em , John!
I have all the Avalon Hill Card Driven games got them as they came out. This is in my view the best, it takes a couple of plays to see that the fact you share tbe same deck of cards results i dinamic game flow. You do not have the I can not play this until he plays the De Gaul card effect in some of the latter games. I have always played with the Second Edition rule that alows the Carthaginians to p,ay on if Hannable dies. The Cartbaginian can win if he cand get to Italy and remove romes Italian support. The random Roman leaders makes no two vames the same. Its a classic the cleanest and the best. The fantastic four player Sucessers runs it very close
flew.
Fred Manzo over at Boardgaming Way has some good articles on this game:
theboardgamingway.com/seizing-the-strategic-initiative-in-hannibal-rome-vs-carthage-a-boardgaming-way-analysis/
Since you guys are going to WBC, i recall there being an annual tournament,. Those players should offer some insights into the game. I agree its not Contemporary, and its not a game to game. Its recreating tight scenario with cards. I would think that actually converting the game to a Sekigahra style block game would be great idea, But of course there would not be Seki with out Hannibal. :)
Here is a great write up about the cards on BGG
boardgamegeek.com/thread/939976/hrvc-hannibal-rome-vs-cards
from the General:
Hannibal is a heavyweight champion, but he cannot lead the fight with his jaw all the time * Avoid battle unless you must fight. Have flanking generals intercept Romans before they start battles with Hannibal Hover near friendly Tribes , Open up secondary threats on Roman possessions in Sicily. These are all important methods of lessening the number of opportuni¬ ties that Rome gets to nail Hannibal Take a page from history: Hannibal did not command every battle in southern Italy in which Carthage fought.
I played Carthaginians and kicked butt so I can't agree that Carthage has a more difficult task
You tell em, John!
@@NoEnemiesHere Yeah....somebody gotta straighten these two out. :)