This one was an editing nightmare. We got carried away and talked on tangents for almost 90 minutes, and I had to cut over half an hour of it. Hope it came out reasonably smooth. I know there are a few spots where it's noticeable.
Looking forward to join Stevey's Discourse. Btw, I would like to know from Jeff, retrospective opinion on moving to an interpreted language (Discourse) form a compiled one (StackOverflow).
There's been so much hardware progression since 2008 it doesn't matter so much, HOWEVER, cloud ain't free, and if you can run on half the servers.. or a quarter the servers.. that is not small potatoes.
Hi Steve, in the next episode with Jeff Atwood, it would be great if you would go in with questions and an agenda(it would make video editing much easier for you too, which you can just add youtube-timecodes based on different questions. Also, his startup journey must be very interesting, would love to hear more stories about all the ups and downs, hiring problems, pitching, fundraisings, monetization struggles, what it is like to work with VCs, m&a negotiation, the exit, his mental shift after exit and his advice to founders. )
I know this isn't relevant and I always hate these types off off-topic comments... but I can't resist. Jeff sounds *exactly* like Kieran Culkin (Roman Roy in Succession).
@@SteveYegge I've heard ones like the lack of tree threading of comments make it very hard to follow (I've experienced this myself too. I'm sure there's a good ux-y reason to avoid tree threading, but it is not optimized for how my own brain works). Other things that are often mentioned are confusion over reply types and the use of infinite scrolling over paging
@@togakangaroo yeah, I am pretty hard all-in on "more topics, linked together web style" versus "100 headed hydra of 100 different discussions happening all at once", and some people do object to infinite scrolling.. but I think the latter is 100% inevitable.
@@coding-horror I buy that but I've also never seen people actually doing newly-spawned topics linked together web style. I think you'll agree the core need is the ability to pursue aides in conversation which are interesting in their own right. Yes, these might be better as their own topic but (in my admittedly not-very-deep) experience with discourse, i have not seen people doing that. Instead they simply interleave messages and quote heavily and aides often die out. Perhaps nudge people in the direction? Allow one level of threading slack-style but no more than 4 or 5 messages. Once you hit that limit, you can hit a single button to convert to a topic.
@@coding-horror I guess one thing that's worth pointing out is how threaded asides can lead to really solid culture-building. I've certainly been in situations where a comment I or others made in a central topic surprised or offended someone and lead to a long threaded conversation. Whether it leads to resolution or not, this contributes to setting cultural norms for the forum. When it *does* lead to resolution, it leads to relationship-building too. I have several online friends with whom the relationship started in such a manner. So it's not as easy as just saying "make it a topic" - what would the topic in a situation like that be? Not something that's easy to put into words. And often I wouldn't *want* those side conversations to be as visible as topics are. Raising things into a topic is now inviting comment globally versus simply having a conversation in public. So how to design for that? Maybe you provide a way for asides to be moved into topics but ones that do not appear in the topic list by-default and maybe don't need a title...but at that point you're effectively doing tree threading again, just with a better underlying model. Maybe chat solves this particular issue. In many situations it probably does, but now you're having that argument/debate/discussion in a context that is naturally predisposed to get more and more heated.
I don’t think people start so many Discords because of friction with other platforms; I think it’s been wildly successful because it’s literally just IRC with chat history. Same with Slack; it was wildly successful because it was literally just IRC with chat history. I’m looking forward to seeing Discourse’s chat, but if I move on from Discord, it’ll be to a platform that’s literally just IRC with chat history *and* good moderation tools. Please, somebody, build that. :P ~ The other main reason I haven’t looked closely at Discourse for my community is that the graphic design looks like enterprise software. I want a theme dropdown, like Stack Overflow’s recent April Fools joke.
@@KelseyHigham Ah, cool. I haven't really seen them as competitors at all as they're so very different, but I suppose there's a level of similarity there as far as connecting people for conversations.
Seriously, WHO is reading topics with 10k+ replies? Who? And every day, more people type more words on the internet. Forgetting is a feature, and I think, pun intended, we all kinda forgot that.
I disagree with Jeff on that bet. Tesla's AI driving algorithm is already apparently statistically better at driving than humans. Who knows how good Google's technology is. It will be a reality in Germany far earlier than in the US, due to what Mercedes is doing.
Enjoyable conversation. Loved the subtle cuts and Jeff's audio, didn't mind the missing video that much.
This one was an editing nightmare. We got carried away and talked on tangents for almost 90 minutes, and I had to cut over half an hour of it. Hope it came out reasonably smooth. I know there are a few spots where it's noticeable.
@@SteveYegge you should release both. some people don't mind listening to 3+ hs podcast. see Joe Rogan for example
@@fernandezpablo The Snyder cut?!?!
Looking forward to join Stevey's Discourse.
Btw, I would like to know from Jeff, retrospective opinion on moving to an interpreted language (Discourse) form a compiled one (StackOverflow).
There's been so much hardware progression since 2008 it doesn't matter so much, HOWEVER, cloud ain't free, and if you can run on half the servers.. or a quarter the servers.. that is not small potatoes.
Hi Steve, in the next episode with Jeff Atwood, it would be great if you would go in with questions and an agenda(it would make video editing much easier for you too, which you can just add youtube-timecodes based on different questions. Also, his startup journey must be very interesting, would love to hear more stories about all the ups and downs, hiring problems, pitching, fundraisings, monetization struggles, what it is like to work with VCs, m&a negotiation, the exit, his mental shift after exit and his advice to founders. )
I like that idea, thanks.
You are more than welcome, Steve! I really enjoy your epic rants and tech talks , would help any way I can to just have more them😂!
I'm changing my vote from last week. I would join a Stevey Discourse.
Same!!!
Love your Talks! Please continue 🙂
Quick question about Grab; are you concerned about the recent departures?
Not at all, but I am concerned that they are still spending so much money. I hope they fix it soon.
❤
There are already self driving vehicles driving around in San Francisco which is a top 10 US city... What am I missing?
I know this isn't relevant and I always hate these types off off-topic comments... but I can't resist. Jeff sounds *exactly* like Kieran Culkin (Roman Roy in Succession).
19:58 The first 3dfx Voodoo had 4 MB of memory, not 512 MB.
ah yes! Thank you. Lots of good info on early 3dfx in newsgroup chatter by the way, search for Gary Tarolli's posts. He was a founder.
Comment for the Engagement AI.
I always dug Discourse. It's not perfect but its much better than the alternatives and does not deserve a lot of the hate I've heard directed at it.
What are some of the complaints?
@@SteveYegge I've heard ones like the lack of tree threading of comments make it very hard to follow (I've experienced this myself too. I'm sure there's a good ux-y reason to avoid tree threading, but it is not optimized for how my own brain works). Other things that are often mentioned are confusion over reply types and the use of infinite scrolling over paging
@@togakangaroo yeah, I am pretty hard all-in on "more topics, linked together web style" versus "100 headed hydra of 100 different discussions happening all at once", and some people do object to infinite scrolling.. but I think the latter is 100% inevitable.
@@coding-horror I buy that but I've also never seen people actually doing newly-spawned topics linked together web style. I think you'll agree the core need is the ability to pursue aides in conversation which are interesting in their own right. Yes, these might be better as their own topic but (in my admittedly not-very-deep) experience with discourse, i have not seen people doing that. Instead they simply interleave messages and quote heavily and aides often die out.
Perhaps nudge people in the direction? Allow one level of threading slack-style but no more than 4 or 5 messages. Once you hit that limit, you can hit a single button to convert to a topic.
@@coding-horror I guess one thing that's worth pointing out is how threaded asides can lead to really solid culture-building. I've certainly been in situations where a comment I or others made in a central topic surprised or offended someone and lead to a long threaded conversation. Whether it leads to resolution or not, this contributes to setting cultural norms for the forum. When it *does* lead to resolution, it leads to relationship-building too. I have several online friends with whom the relationship started in such a manner.
So it's not as easy as just saying "make it a topic" - what would the topic in a situation like that be? Not something that's easy to put into words. And often I wouldn't *want* those side conversations to be as visible as topics are. Raising things into a topic is now inviting comment globally versus simply having a conversation in public.
So how to design for that? Maybe you provide a way for asides to be moved into topics but ones that do not appear in the topic list by-default and maybe don't need a title...but at that point you're effectively doing tree threading again, just with a better underlying model. Maybe chat solves this particular issue. In many situations it probably does, but now you're having that argument/debate/discussion in a context that is naturally predisposed to get more and more heated.
Joking but only 80% joking. Let's do an old school bb system you have to telnet into
I don’t think people start so many Discords because of friction with other platforms; I think it’s been wildly successful because it’s literally just IRC with chat history.
Same with Slack; it was wildly successful because it was literally just IRC with chat history.
I’m looking forward to seeing Discourse’s chat, but if I move on from Discord, it’ll be to a platform that’s literally just IRC with chat history *and* good moderation tools. Please, somebody, build that. :P
~
The other main reason I haven’t looked closely at Discourse for my community is that the graphic design looks like enterprise software. I want a theme dropdown, like Stack Overflow’s recent April Fools joke.
Discourse, not Discord
I’m comparing Discourse to its competitor, Discord
@@KelseyHigham Ah, cool. I haven't really seen them as competitors at all as they're so very different, but I suppose there's a level of similarity there as far as connecting people for conversations.
@@togakangaroo We are adding real time chat to Discourse because we need it; "topics" with 10k+ replies are symptoms and chat is the medication.
Seriously, WHO is reading topics with 10k+ replies? Who? And every day, more people type more words on the internet. Forgetting is a feature, and I think, pun intended, we all kinda forgot that.
I disagree with Jeff on that bet. Tesla's AI driving algorithm is already apparently statistically better at driving than humans. Who knows how good Google's technology is.
It will be a reality in Germany far earlier than in the US, due to what Mercedes is doing.