My reaction was like yours but this is more to this behind the scenes and another thing the actor who played him if am not mistaken died not long after this due to his issues. Yet his character's death was one I felt more in the angel series. It's mad because that was just episode 9 for a side character!
This one was rough. The actor who played Doyle, Glenn Quinn, was struggling with his drug addiction and had to be let go. He was always suppose to die just not this soon.
It's true that Quinn had a drug problem. But interviews with Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt are that they planned to kill him off entirely. And it fact, they kept him on sooner than they intended because Quinn was as good and because focus groups responded favorably to the character. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Francis_Doyle#Writing_and_acting It makes sense for the storytelling, though, to have killed him off. There was, one, the problem that his character does not connect as naturally with Angel and Cordelia. But also, Cordelia had less reason to stay with Angel. She wants to work in entertainment and just sees this as a day job. It's not until Doyle's death that Cordelia becomes more invested in the mission--helping the helpless, etc.
@@davewolf6256 I suspect those interviews you refer to were from when Quinn was still alive (or possibly shortly after his death). In the years afterwards, Greenwalt has explained that Quinn had trouble remembering his lines (with the implication being it was due to substance abuse). They gave Quinn an ultimatum in episode 2 that he either get his act together or leave. They then adjusted the scripts to write him out. Greenwalt also explained that the previous explanation that the character was always meant to die was just a cover story to avoid revealing Quinn's personal problems.
Props to Glenn Quinn and the writers for being able to create a fan favorite character in so few episodes. The ending of this episode, from Doyle's death to the end, I consider to be one of Angel's best and iconic moments.
The nazi symbolism is just a smidge heavy-handed in this episode (the Scourge's costuming for crying out loud), but any shortcomings in the episode are totally eclipsed by Doyle And that very ending scene with Angel, Cordy and him on tape (sobs into the void)
I always wondered if the henchmen from Buffy season 3 episode 1 (Anne) are part of the Scourge? They had a nazi like appearance as well and worked those runaways to death.
They were killing off a main character. I think they wanted it to be obvious that this was going to be hard. I think they didn’t want to pull a Tasha Yar death. They wanted it to be meaningful.
Yeah the symbolism was a little heavy handed but it helped add weight to the seriousness of the scourge threat with a minimum of screen time and exposition. It was also probably cost efficient. This kind of thing happens all the time in Hollywood, where a show rents a set of costumes from a prop company due to their own budget limitations. For a classic example, take the soldier uniforms(combat armour) made for the film "Starship Troopers". They were later used in the Gary Sinise scifi film; "Imposter". The same costumes would show up again in one of the "Power Rangers" series. Either "Space" or "Lost Galaxy"(not sure which). Finally Joss Whedon himself used those costumes for Alliance soldiers on "Firefly" in multiple episodes. I think it is safe to assume that these "Nazi" costumes have been seen in multiple productions as well.
This, in my estimation, gives weight to the vision that sent Angel to Sunnydale. At a glance it's easy to just think he really went there to fight a couple of vengeance spirits and throw a sharp object from a distance to save Buffy, but that's just the surface level. His going there leads to Buffy coming to L.A., which ultimately serves to fortify Angel's convictions and purpose. That, in turn, leads to him telling Doyle about it, and Doyle understanding Angel's heroism drives Doyle to finding the will and courage to make this sacrifice. So, in a roundabout way, the vision that sends Angel into the events of Pangs isn't so much about helping Buffy, who probably could've found a way to overcome the challenges; it's about putting both Angel and Doyle on their respective paths to make them the heroes they need to be. I think that's the multifaceted purpose the Powers That Be had in mind with that particular vision. Also, the Scourge demons look a lot like some of the demons that Buffy fought in the episode 'Anne' when she was in L.A. and went through that portal to a hell dimension. And it's interesting that they think of themselves as "pure" demons, when Anya explained in Buffy season 3 that all of the demons that walk the earth are tainted and the Mayor achieving Ascension was what a pure demon looks like. So really these self-important blowhards are just looking for a reason to think they're better than others and an excuse to do violence...which kind of fits the thinly-veiled metaphor.
One of the most profound things about this episode is, you get exact _one_ chance to ever watch that scene with Doyle doing the commercial and not having it be a gut punch, knowing what follows. This episode gets me every. Damn. Time.
The behind the scenes reasons why Doyle died was sad. The actor was addicted to drugs and kept showing up to filming unprepared with his lines so the crew had no choice but to fire him. The actor died three years later of a drug overdose. I sometimes wonder if that is the reason Mark Healy wasn't on _Roseanne_ often and spoke so little.
@@stevehaines213 He was the boyfriend of Becky, the oldest daughter, and eventually they got married. I think he was there for both actresses that played her.
Cordy "What do you think I am, superficial?" Alley "well..." Remember when Cordy thought Xander had turned into a Fish Monster, and she talked about all the changes she was going to make to accommodate his new living requirements. She actually uses her superficiality as a shield to protect her from getting hurt, but it isn't really her.
Even though they killed Doyle off due to Glenn Quinn's drug problem, they did it in such a way that Doyle died a hero and is a beloved character, remembered by fans with deep affection, so much so that it's hard to believe he was only in 9 episodes of the show. He remains one of my two favorite characters in this entire series to this day. RIP Doyle and RIP Glenn Quinn.
It also made it a lot harder for the show runner. David, Glen, and Christian Kane (who played Lindsey in the first episode) were all really good friends, and the producers were worried David would not be happy firing Glenn.
Even just 9 episodes of Doyle was enough for me to have a deep connection and bond with the character. I am genuinely sobbing right now (just finished the episode). I can't believe he's gone. And knowing that the actor who played the character (Glenn Quinn) also tragically died in 2002 isn't helping at all😢 he was a fantastic actor. Rest in peace. I still am gonna keep loving you sir. 🙏
Annnnnnnd I'm crying. I can't even watch clips of Doyle's death without weeping. I think it's probably the most physically agonising, gruesome death in the Buffyverse. And it happens to someone who really doesn't deserve it *wails*
"You never know your strength until you're tested" Gee, I wonder if Doyle's strength will be tested this episode... (not my joke, but too good not to tell)
I listened to a podcast (RedemptionCast) and Tim Minear guested on it (I think Season 2 episode 2) and talked about Quinn's behaviour, firing and other things (like how he himself quit in like Season1).
Different things. Joss and David Greenwalt killed Doyle as the Executive Producers of the show. Tim Minear was easily number 2 after Greenwalt (Joss was more like a... the uber Boss because he ran Buffy at the same time) and eventually he became the second day-to-day showrunner of the show (S2-3) and also an Executive Producer but at that point of the series he was just a writer-producer and he couldn't decided it (he could peach it to David and Joss but, also, he didn't). So Tim, simply, wrote the episode (also every episode had a previous break story into 4 acts led by Joss and David and they made rewrites or notes y every script). Even more: they decided to kill Doyle after this episode... 1x10 still had Doyle in it... So Doyle's killing was a very rushed decission and led to several rewrites in further episodes.
Aside from this being a Joss show, and Joss likes to kill characters the fans like, they were having problems with Glenn Quinn and his substance abuse.
Yeah, this is rough. And actually it is REAL rough, because the actor playing Doyle was having heavy drug problems. They were always supposed to kill him off but not this soon. What is really sad is that in a later season (I think it was season 3 or 4?) they were planning to bring him back, but the actor died before that could happen...
TFW you've made "demon" so morally ambiguous (ahem, 1.5/3 of main cast) that, in order to make a group instantly recognizable as baddies, you need to go with demon *Nazis*. Also, the replaying of the silly commercial tape at the end was brilliant and crushing. Everything takes on such a new meaning. Gets me every time.
I think the metaphors were there. These demons were about genocide and race purity so it fits. This episode says a lot. The nazi's represented racism, oppression, genocide - in short, real evil. It showed that all demons aren't just evil - they can be victims (like humans). But it also shows that they can rise, sacrifice, and be a hero. It showed that any of us, no matter how flawed, can be a hero. I think it was the bible that said there is no greater friend than one who lays down his life for another. Now we can look at demons (or perhaps the demons in us) in a new way. No lesser sacrifice could have made a statement this strong.
I know you're ahead of this ep now, so yes, Doyle is gone. They had plans for his character, but Glenn Quinn, the actor, couldn't get on top of his addiction problems. He was showing up late, not knowing his lines, etc. They warned him multiple times, so they really didn't have a choice. At the time, they said they did it deliberately, to mess with the audience, killing off a character who was in the credits. But they said that to protect the actor. If he'd been able to get his problems under control, he'd have massive problems getting hired with a major firing on his record. Sadly, he'd been an addict since he was a teenager in Dublin, and he never conquered it. He died of a heroine overdose a few years after he left Angel. And yes, the Scourge are portrayed as demon Nazis. Less metaphor and more blatant correlation...
You think you know pain and tragedy because Jenny Calendar died? Buffy and Angel will show you pain and tragedy. You can't count on ANY character being safe.
Rest in Peace, Glenn Quinn. Doyle was written out of the show because Glenn was struggling with drug addiction. Sadly, he later on died from an overdose :(
And of course Doyle's going to save the day, get the girl, and live happily ever - no, wait, this is a Whedon show, and stuff is real, and no one is safe.
Roseanne Barr's sitcom was huge, so it's surprising no one mentions that Joss Whedon wrote for it and that Glenn Quinn acted in it. Doesn't anyone remember his awesome performance as Becky's husband Mark?
I bet that people on Patreon already mentioned it but the actor Glenn Quinn had substance abuse issues and to my recollection he lead to leave the show for that issue and that’s why they killed his character. Doyle’s death was dramatic at least and not just a weird goodbye thanks moment. Sadly, Glenn Quinn passed away in 2002 to a drug overdose.
RIP Glen Quinn, we lost a good one. "Is that it? Am I done?" ............................................................ damn you, Joss Whedon. (Also, yes the Scourge are basically demon Nazis).
For me the nazi symbolisn was always too on the noise and there were just certain things about the world building and the scourge that dont make sense but the ending saves it for me. Like I adore Doyle and it still guts me what happened to the character and the actor. RIP Glenn Quinn
It's a good song but I would probably use "Face Everything And Rise" to that punching bag scene like a training montage. The lyrics kinda suit the tone with Angel's determination to keep fighting: "I will face everything and rise/ Never gonna quit until I die/ Angels keep falling from the skies/ I'll take these broken wings and learn to fly" 👍
Very true. It reminds me of how recently there was a mass grave of Indigenous children discovered at a former residential school in British Columbia, Canada. So much genocide has gone unrecognised by history, and still is to this day.
Doyle's death and the aftermath is great, but the rest of the episode feels off. I think this was meant to be Doyle's long running plot but it got condensed down into one episode
Whedon wanted "Jessie" from the pilot of Buffy to be in the opening credits just to establish ta no one was safe. In the end they didnt have the resources at the time.
If I remember right, and you surely know by now, the reset Buffy timeline was a one off. The writers needed to deal with the implications of the Oracles being able to do that, and there was no better way to illustrate their unwillingness, if not inability, to fix all of Team Angel's problems, regardless of how costly and permanent they can be. I feel like the excuse they gave was pretty flimsy, but I'm willing to overlook it since that was such a good crossover episode with Sarah Michelle Gellar. Buffy doesn't just show up to fight the monster of the week, she shows up to inflict horrible pain on us all.
I think when people talk about Angel not using metaphor like Buffy does, they're referring to the show's looser use of metaphor. On Buffy, every character represents a different part of the titular character and their plots usually relate metaphorically to whatever Buffy is currently going through. Angel's characters don't relate to Angel the same way, but the show still makes heavy use of metaphor, albeit in a different, looser way.
The stomping run of the scourge has always reminded me of the marching cybermen in Doctor Who. I don't know if it was an homage but the sound was certainly used for a similar effect.
"Why am I kind of into him in that uniform?" Because Hugo Boss designed a good looking uniform, regardless of how terrible the people he designed it for were.
No one does tragedy like joss whedon 😭 like Ik he had to be let go but that ending killed me more than it should’ve cuz I was just getting attached to his character
Joss Whedon wanted to include Eric Balfour (Jesse, Xander's friend) in the titles of the first episode of Buffy, but he couldn't afford the union rates to do that. By the time of Angel, he had a bigger budget and the plan to include a character as a season regular and then kill them off to convince the viewer that anyone can die became possible. They intended to kill off Doyle at the end of the season, but had to fire him because of his heroin addiction, so this was rather earlier than planned. It definitely raises the stakes every time someone other than Angel (or Buffy) is in danger, though - you know they can die.
The Oracles wouldn't have reset time again, it'd be too simple to do that and they would always do that if they could. Glenn Quinn also died shortly after this so even if they had plans to bring him back they had to change it. The change did help to evolve Cordelia because the valley girl persona ran dry by this time. The death of Glenn Quinn would be addressed in The Connors Season 1 (he played Mark in Roseanne) The Nazi comparison is very obvious.
Metaphors are actually almost if not as big for Angel as it is for Buffy. The show's first scene is a very noticeable one. Every episode mainly has a theme or 2 in the first season until they get better at writing the characters and story.
I don't know if half demons have souls in the Buffyverse, but Doyle had better be whatever passes for heaven in it. In episode 1 Doyle referenced his own need for atonement. In this episode we both saw what he needed to atone for and saw the completion of his atonement. And, yes, I figure the Nazi metaphor was deliberate.
very sad episode to bring in the month but... happy pride! haha hope everyone has a fun and safe pride month :D
Happy Priiiiideee!
An auspicious month for reactions....
Ooown, thank you for that. I miss the parades though
Very sad to report, I offered the 68th "like" for Pride and not 69. Really bad news for my OCD. :(
My reaction was like yours but this is more to this behind the scenes and another thing the actor who played him if am not mistaken died not long after this due to his issues. Yet his character's death was one I felt more in the angel series. It's mad because that was just episode 9 for a side character!
"Is that it...am I done?"
Not the last heartbreaking line.
Our rats are low.
@@BD_RMNCE
Rates!
@@zemoxian It says rats.
R.I.P Glenn Quinn (Doyle) who passed in 2002 he was an amazing actor and is missed.
Yes he was amazing and I am sad he passed
The nazi demons weren't subtext. That was text.
*BOLDED TEXT*
“I fear the subtext here is rapidly becoming… text”
One small detail you can notice is that for a lot of the episode, Angel has his hair combed like he's in a WWII film.
"I know writers who use subtext, and they're all cowards."
This one was rough. The actor who played Doyle, Glenn Quinn, was struggling with his drug addiction and had to be let go. He was always suppose to die just not this soon.
He struggled with Heroin for years and sadly passed away in 2002 from an overdose
he was meant to come back as a big bad irrc
It's true that Quinn had a drug problem. But interviews with Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt are that they planned to kill him off entirely. And it fact, they kept him on sooner than they intended because Quinn was as good and because focus groups responded favorably to the character.
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Francis_Doyle#Writing_and_acting
It makes sense for the storytelling, though, to have killed him off. There was, one, the problem that his character does not connect as naturally with Angel and Cordelia. But also, Cordelia had less reason to stay with Angel. She wants to work in entertainment and just sees this as a day job. It's not until Doyle's death that Cordelia becomes more invested in the mission--helping the helpless, etc.
He was actually let go according to Joss because of his character not meshing as well as they wanted. But I’m sure his addiction was a factor as well
@@davewolf6256 I suspect those interviews you refer to were from when Quinn was still alive (or possibly shortly after his death).
In the years afterwards, Greenwalt has explained that Quinn had trouble remembering his lines (with the implication being it was due to substance abuse). They gave Quinn an ultimatum in episode 2 that he either get his act together or leave. They then adjusted the scripts to write him out.
Greenwalt also explained that the previous explanation that the character was always meant to die was just a cover story to avoid revealing Quinn's personal problems.
"Is it actually going to be about the commercial" No, but also yes.
"Is that it? Am I done?"
😭
Every. Damn. Time. Every time.
Props to Glenn Quinn and the writers for being able to create a fan favorite character in so few episodes. The ending of this episode, from Doyle's death to the end, I consider to be one of Angel's best and iconic moments.
Yes, Glenn Quinn was amazing. It is so devastating that he had drug problems, he could have been one of the greatest TV stars.
I’ll periodically re-realize that he was in only 9 episodes and then think “no way, what” and then go check and yep, only 9 episodes.
Really a remarkable performance by Quinn given that this episode is basically his firing.
The nazi symbolism is just a smidge heavy-handed in this episode (the Scourge's costuming for crying out loud), but any shortcomings in the episode are totally eclipsed by Doyle
And that very ending scene with Angel, Cordy and him on tape (sobs into the void)
I always wondered if the henchmen from Buffy season 3 episode 1 (Anne) are part of the Scourge? They had a nazi like appearance as well and worked those runaways to death.
The Scourge's costuming isn't any more "heavy-handed" than the Imperial uniforms in Star Wars, really.
@@antonbrakhage490
Space Nazis, demon Nazis, Nazi Nazis, they’re just bad. If you think you see Nazis, you probably found the baddies.
They were killing off a main character. I think they wanted it to be obvious that this was going to be hard. I think they didn’t want to pull a Tasha Yar death. They wanted it to be meaningful.
Yeah the symbolism was a little heavy handed but it helped add weight to the seriousness of the scourge threat with a minimum of screen time and exposition. It was also probably cost efficient. This kind of thing happens all the time in Hollywood, where a show rents a set of costumes from a prop company due to their own budget limitations. For a classic example, take the soldier uniforms(combat armour) made for the film "Starship Troopers". They were later used in the Gary Sinise scifi film; "Imposter". The same costumes would show up again in one of the "Power Rangers" series. Either "Space" or "Lost Galaxy"(not sure which). Finally Joss Whedon himself used those costumes for Alliance soldiers on "Firefly" in multiple episodes. I think it is safe to assume that these "Nazi" costumes have been seen in multiple productions as well.
"Did Doyle actually die?!"
WELCOME TO WHEDON TOWN
The Nazi imagery wasn't intended to be subtle in this episode, it was meant to be VERY obvious
"he keeps getting roasted." Damn, what a choice of words! Unintentional foreshadowing for the the win.
This one breaks my heart even more so because of how tragic Glenn Quinn’s life was. I’ve loved him ever since I saw him on Roseanne.
This, in my estimation, gives weight to the vision that sent Angel to Sunnydale. At a glance it's easy to just think he really went there to fight a couple of vengeance spirits and throw a sharp object from a distance to save Buffy, but that's just the surface level. His going there leads to Buffy coming to L.A., which ultimately serves to fortify Angel's convictions and purpose. That, in turn, leads to him telling Doyle about it, and Doyle understanding Angel's heroism drives Doyle to finding the will and courage to make this sacrifice. So, in a roundabout way, the vision that sends Angel into the events of Pangs isn't so much about helping Buffy, who probably could've found a way to overcome the challenges; it's about putting both Angel and Doyle on their respective paths to make them the heroes they need to be. I think that's the multifaceted purpose the Powers That Be had in mind with that particular vision.
Also, the Scourge demons look a lot like some of the demons that Buffy fought in the episode 'Anne' when she was in L.A. and went through that portal to a hell dimension. And it's interesting that they think of themselves as "pure" demons, when Anya explained in Buffy season 3 that all of the demons that walk the earth are tainted and the Mayor achieving Ascension was what a pure demon looks like. So really these self-important blowhards are just looking for a reason to think they're better than others and an excuse to do violence...which kind of fits the thinly-veiled metaphor.
Wow! That never ocurred to me but it makes so much sense 😮
Well yes they aren’t pure demon, but I don’t think they are half human which is what they wanted to eliminate
One of the most profound things about this episode is, you get exact _one_ chance to ever watch that scene with Doyle doing the commercial and not having it be a gut punch, knowing what follows. This episode gets me every. Damn. Time.
The behind the scenes reasons why Doyle died was sad. The actor was addicted to drugs and kept showing up to filming unprepared with his lines so the crew had no choice but to fire him. The actor died three years later of a drug overdose. I sometimes wonder if that is the reason Mark Healy wasn't on _Roseanne_ often and spoke so little.
Wait he appeared on Roseanne ?
@@lonerEmpath American accent and everything. He was the boyfriend of the younger daughter.
@@stevehaines213 oh wow thanks I had no idea
That's a good point about Rosanne, I never thought of that before.
@@stevehaines213 He was the boyfriend of Becky, the oldest daughter, and eventually they got married. I think he was there for both actresses that played her.
Cordy "What do you think I am, superficial?" Alley "well..."
Remember when Cordy thought Xander had turned into a Fish Monster, and she talked about all the changes she was going to make to accommodate his new living requirements. She actually uses her superficiality as a shield to protect her from getting hurt, but it isn't really her.
Even though they killed Doyle off due to Glenn Quinn's drug problem, they did it in such a way that Doyle died a hero and is a beloved character, remembered by fans with deep affection, so much so that it's hard to believe he was only in 9 episodes of the show. He remains one of my two favorite characters in this entire series to this day. RIP Doyle and RIP Glenn Quinn.
David and Glenn Quinn were really close friends, which makes it even sadder that he had to be written out :(
It also made it a lot harder for the show runner. David, Glen, and Christian Kane (who played Lindsey in the first episode) were all really good friends, and the producers were worried David would not be happy firing Glenn.
"I.. I..I I don't like this show" - We feel you Alley. Last episode was cruel, now back to back cruelness.
Even just 9 episodes of Doyle was enough for me to have a deep connection and bond with the character. I am genuinely sobbing right now (just finished the episode). I can't believe he's gone. And knowing that the actor who played the character (Glenn Quinn) also tragically died in 2002 isn't helping at all😢 he was a fantastic actor. Rest in peace. I still am gonna keep loving you sir. 🙏
Annnnnnnd I'm crying. I can't even watch clips of Doyle's death without weeping. I think it's probably the most physically agonising, gruesome death in the Buffyverse. And it happens to someone who really doesn't deserve it *wails*
Spoilers, but Ally just assuming that Doyle can’t be dead or must be resurrected is kinda heartbreaking.
Some of us had that hope until the day Glenn died.
This episode always gets me, one of the best eps of the whole series.
RIP Glenn Quinn
I remember we all chuckled over the 1st "is that it, am I done".
That was the last time for me, that phrase still hurts after all this time
😭
Huh my first thought was. Yes, Well done/ Extra crispy
@@jamesgreenshade6065 ... why
Reminds me of "I am a leaf on the wind...watch how I soar".
He had a thing where the first time is for laughs and the second time is for sobs.
@@razycrandomgirl There seems to be some not so nice comments on this video
"Is that it, am I done" is still one of the hardest hitting last lines from a show
"You never know your strength until you're tested"
Gee, I wonder if Doyle's strength will be tested this episode...
(not my joke, but too good not to tell)
A lot of people blame Joss for killing off Doyle, but Tim Minear signed his posts to fan sites with "I killed Doyle, and I do it again!" for years.
I listened to a podcast (RedemptionCast) and Tim Minear guested on it (I think Season 2 episode 2) and talked about Quinn's behaviour, firing and other things (like how he himself quit in like Season1).
Different things. Joss and David Greenwalt killed Doyle as the Executive Producers of the show. Tim Minear was easily number 2 after Greenwalt (Joss was more like a... the uber Boss because he ran Buffy at the same time) and eventually he became the second day-to-day showrunner of the show (S2-3) and also an Executive Producer but at that point of the series he was just a writer-producer and he couldn't decided it (he could peach it to David and Joss but, also, he didn't). So Tim, simply, wrote the episode (also every episode had a previous break story into 4 acts led by Joss and David and they made rewrites or notes y every script).
Even more: they decided to kill Doyle after this episode... 1x10 still had Doyle in it... So Doyle's killing was a very rushed decission and led to several rewrites in further episodes.
Aside from this being a Joss show, and Joss likes to kill characters the fans like, they were having problems with Glenn Quinn and his substance abuse.
Yeah that was another factor to consider, it's sad because it showed he did his best even for only 9 episodes.
I hadn’t realized you were here already; Doyle had such an impact, it’s hard to remember he was only here such a short time.
"Suffocation... No breathing..." such fitting words to describe Angel.
Alley: This poor dude he gets *roasted* every single episode
Me: This poor girl she has no idea.
Angel's punch bag moment is... rather more attractive than I remembered *ahem* 😳
It was never lost on 15yo me what a snack David Boreanez was. WHEW!
If the episode's title is "Hero," it's probably going to hurt.
I remember the Stargate episodes Heroes part & 2 so I tend to agree.
Not gonna lie. Had been waiting for this one knowing what was coming.
There are quite a few episodes I feel this way about.
"Let's talk about Doyle and Cordelia for a hot second."
HOT SECOND...
I see what you did there.
oh- OH NO
cordelia and doyle are THE MOST underrated ship in the buffyverse
change my mind.
Doyle is Cordy’s true love and that’s that.
YES!
@@sarahxo2317 YES!!!
Makes me sad that Alley never seemed to really go for it. It was very believable for me.
@@sarahxo2317 i’m personally more of a fan of cordy and a certain someone else
Yeah, this is rough. And actually it is REAL rough, because the actor playing Doyle was having heavy drug problems. They were always supposed to kill him off but not this soon. What is really sad is that in a later season (I think it was season 3 or 4?) they were planning to bring him back, but the actor died before that could happen...
Oh man, I forgot how in denial Alley was at the end of this episode. This one always hurts :(
Alley "is that a metaphor for..." Yes. Yes it is, and it's not even remotely subtle.
This episode sold Angel to me. Suddenly it wasn't just another monster of the week show with low stakes, but deep personal drama...
All these years later, and the loss of Doyle still makes me, um, sweat from my eyes.
TFW you've made "demon" so morally ambiguous (ahem, 1.5/3 of main cast) that, in order to make a group instantly recognizable as baddies, you need to go with demon *Nazis*.
Also, the replaying of the silly commercial tape at the end was brilliant and crushing. Everything takes on such a new meaning. Gets me every time.
You: I think Angel is going to go back to the Oracles and bring Doyle back.
Those of us who have seen it and are trying not to spoil it: Um....
“Title sequences don’t mean shit.”
You’re not wrong.
Once upon a time, I thought Doyle would be coming back too. It's been 22 years ... I'm beginning to think maybe he's not coming back.
ALLEY! The roasting = unintentional foreshadowing line. How dare you! 😳😭😅
yeah sad I know but on another note I really appreaciate the quote of the day by the ´´glittery oracle´´ xD
Turns out Giles isn't the only man ever.
I think the metaphors were there. These demons were about genocide and race purity so it fits.
This episode says a lot. The nazi's represented racism, oppression, genocide - in short, real evil. It showed that all demons aren't just evil - they can be victims (like humans). But it also shows that they can rise, sacrifice, and be a hero. It showed that any of us, no matter how flawed, can be a hero. I think it was the bible that said there is no greater friend than one who lays down his life for another. Now we can look at demons (or perhaps the demons in us) in a new way. No lesser sacrifice could have made a statement this strong.
Not just into him in that uniform, Alley - into him vamped-out in that uniform! 😅 Giiiiiiiiiiiiiirl
I know you're ahead of this ep now, so yes, Doyle is gone. They had plans for his character, but Glenn Quinn, the actor, couldn't get on top of his addiction problems. He was showing up late, not knowing his lines, etc. They warned him multiple times, so they really didn't have a choice.
At the time, they said they did it deliberately, to mess with the audience, killing off a character who was in the credits. But they said that to protect the actor. If he'd been able to get his problems under control, he'd have massive problems getting hired with a major firing on his record. Sadly, he'd been an addict since he was a teenager in Dublin, and he never conquered it. He died of a heroine overdose a few years after he left Angel.
And yes, the Scourge are portrayed as demon Nazis. Less metaphor and more blatant correlation...
You think you know pain and tragedy because Jenny Calendar died? Buffy and Angel will show you pain and tragedy. You can't count on ANY character being safe.
Rest in Peace, Glenn Quinn. Doyle was written out of the show because Glenn was struggling with drug addiction. Sadly, he later on died from an overdose :(
And of course Doyle's going to save the day, get the girl, and live happily ever - no, wait, this is a Whedon show, and stuff is real, and no one is safe.
Ooh, so Alley missed the blink-and-you'll-miss-it sparkles going from Doyle's mouth to Cordy's when they kissed!
.
Our rats are low :(
The Angel post breakup scene had me LAUGHING
Roseanne Barr's sitcom was huge, so it's surprising no one mentions that Joss Whedon wrote for it and that Glenn Quinn acted in it. Doesn't anyone remember his awesome performance as Becky's husband Mark?
I bet that people on Patreon already mentioned it but the actor Glenn Quinn had substance abuse issues and to my recollection he lead to leave the show for that issue and that’s why they killed his character. Doyle’s death was dramatic at least and not just a weird goodbye thanks moment. Sadly, Glenn Quinn passed away in 2002 to a drug overdose.
RIP Glen Quinn, we lost a good one.
"Is that it? Am I done?" ............................................................ damn you, Joss Whedon.
(Also, yes the Scourge are basically demon Nazis).
For me the nazi symbolisn was always too on the noise and there were just certain things about the world building and the scourge that dont make sense but the ending saves it for me. Like I adore Doyle and it still guts me what happened to the character and the actor. RIP Glenn Quinn
OMG that's so weird I just played that Papa Roach song moments ago before it came on screen! Good choice!
@@ItsMeBarnaby it's iconic, joffrey. take a seat
@@ItsMeBarnaby rude! I have a wide varied taste in music. Papa Roach is nostalgic for me!
It's a good song but I would probably use "Face Everything And Rise" to that punching bag scene like a training montage. The lyrics kinda suit the tone with Angel's determination to keep fighting: "I will face everything and rise/ Never gonna quit until I die/ Angels keep falling from the skies/ I'll take these broken wings and learn to fly" 👍
15:48 "That was like a thing that happened.." That's a thing that still happens all too often.
Very true. It reminds me of how recently there was a mass grave of Indigenous children discovered at a former residential school in British Columbia, Canada. So much genocide has gone unrecognised by history, and still is to this day.
Yes, the Scourge were totally Nazis
No, the end never gets easier to watch :(
Angel Investigations could really use a demon hunter on their team. Perhaps one that is a bit roguish.
Someone incredibly brave and a master of the fighting arts.
Doyle's death and the aftermath is great, but the rest of the episode feels off. I think this was meant to be Doyle's long running plot but it got condensed down into one episode
We all fear the Tim Reaper. You might as well brace yourself any time you see Tim Minear in the writing credits.
Whedon wanted "Jessie" from the pilot of Buffy to be in the opening credits just to establish ta no one was safe. In the end they didnt have the resources at the time.
i thought the way Glenn left was fitting he was fighting with Angel for his redemption and he found it and died a hero.
Welcome to Angel! First man down...
“Is that it? ...am I done?”
“No.”
If I remember right, and you surely know by now, the reset Buffy timeline was a one off. The writers needed to deal with the implications of the Oracles being able to do that, and there was no better way to illustrate their unwillingness, if not inability, to fix all of Team Angel's problems, regardless of how costly and permanent they can be. I feel like the excuse they gave was pretty flimsy, but I'm willing to overlook it since that was such a good crossover episode with Sarah Michelle Gellar. Buffy doesn't just show up to fight the monster of the week, she shows up to inflict horrible pain on us all.
You have already met the big bads, you met them in episode 1.
This is such a sad and surprising episode that no one saw coming! So heartbreaking EVERYTIME I watch poor Doyle die...Jos is Sadistic lol
I think when people talk about Angel not using metaphor like Buffy does, they're referring to the show's looser use of metaphor. On Buffy, every character represents a different part of the titular character and their plots usually relate metaphorically to whatever Buffy is currently going through. Angel's characters don't relate to Angel the same way, but the show still makes heavy use of metaphor, albeit in a different, looser way.
RIP Glenn Quinn.
Oh thank god! I was worried I was gonna miss the Hush reaction before work!
Then I realized it was Hero instead :’(
It's gonna be ok....next episode will make you smile and you will begin the best journey in all of television
This is an episode that always makes me cry. I couldn't believe it when I saw it live
I'm glad this came up my life didn't have enough misery.
All these years later, this one still hurts like hell.
Glenn Quinn, Doyle(also Mark from Roseanne), was let go from the show due to his drug problems. He died in 2002 of a heroine overdose :(
The stomping run of the scourge has always reminded me of the marching cybermen in Doctor Who. I don't know if it was an homage but the sound was certainly used for a similar effect.
Cybermen didn't march like that in classic Who (which was the only Who at the time of filming of this episode of Angel).
I loved Doyle and was so sad to see him leave the show.
These comments are so bad tonight, I never saw so many rude or mean ones as well as so many spoilers.
"Why am I kind of into him in that uniform?" Because Hugo Boss designed a good looking uniform, regardless of how terrible the people he designed it for were.
SPOILERS
How fitting that we’ll get to watch her react to hush during pride month lol
"This capture card was like $200."
Oh, so a bit less than a textbook.
No one does tragedy like joss whedon 😭 like Ik he had to be let go but that ending killed me more than it should’ve cuz I was just getting attached to his character
He had to leave because he'd become a serious addict.
Joss Whedon wanted to include Eric Balfour (Jesse, Xander's friend) in the titles of the first episode of Buffy, but he couldn't afford the union rates to do that. By the time of Angel, he had a bigger budget and the plan to include a character as a season regular and then kill them off to convince the viewer that anyone can die became possible.
They intended to kill off Doyle at the end of the season, but had to fire him because of his heroin addiction, so this was rather earlier than planned.
It definitely raises the stakes every time someone other than Angel (or Buffy) is in danger, though - you know they can die.
Heh stakes
Oh? You are warming up to Doyle... oh no. 💔
The Oracles wouldn't have reset time again, it'd be too simple to do that and they would always do that if they could. Glenn Quinn also died shortly after this so even if they had plans to bring him back they had to change it. The change did help to evolve Cordelia because the valley girl persona ran dry by this time. The death of Glenn Quinn would be addressed in The Connors Season 1 (he played Mark in Roseanne)
The Nazi comparison is very obvious.
You:"He keeps getting roasted" Me: ouch
I liked the memes! Very funny. The demons look like the dudes from Slipknot! 🤣
Metaphors are actually almost if not as big for Angel as it is for Buffy. The show's first scene is a very noticeable one. Every episode mainly has a theme or 2 in the first season until they get better at writing the characters and story.
I don't know if half demons have souls in the Buffyverse, but Doyle had better be whatever passes for heaven in it.
In episode 1 Doyle referenced his own need for atonement. In this episode we both saw what he needed to atone for and saw the completion of his atonement.
And, yes, I figure the Nazi metaphor was deliberate.
I’m excited for the next episode! My favorite character in all of buffy verse comes back in
no one is safe Alley :)
Everyone brings in Nazi parallels. Everyone