FM 6-40 MCWP 3-16.4 Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for the Field Artillery Manual Cannon Gunnery Replace Figure 7-1, Page 7-1 with the following: STANDARD CONDITIONS WEATHER 1 AIR TEMPERATURE 100 PERCENT (59° F) 2 AIR DENSITY 100 PERCENT (1,225 gm/m3) IND 3 NO Wind POSITION 1 GUN, TARGET AND MDP AT SAME ALTITUDE 2 ACCURATE RANGE 3 NO ROTATION OF THE EARTH MATERIAL 1 STANDARD WEAPON, PROJECTILE, AND FUZE 2 PROPELLANT TEMPERATURE (70° F) 3 LEVEL TRUNNIONS AND PRECISION SETTINGS 4 FIRING TABLE MUZZLE VELOCITY 5 NO DRIFT LEGEND: gm/m3 - grams per cubic meter
@@RMS-gl6wl Some of the artillery "Computers" (mechanical) used gyrocompasses to find true north to help with the earth motion-based effects. Ask one of these flat earthers to explain the theory of operation of the 100-year-old (STILL IN USE TODAY) gyrocompass. You won't hear from them again.
Fascinating, and very nicely done. At first, I couldn't understand why there was a right hand deflection in the northern hemisphere when shooting both east and west. But when you showed how things work near the pole, I got it! The target is essentially moving out of the way after the shot is fired. (I find I often grasp ideas better when they are taken to a limit.) The diagrams went by a little fast for me, but I could pause and rewind until I got it. Thanks again!
The main thing about the northern pole is that which ever way you point the weapon, every direction is south (southern pole is the opposite: north). I also find it easier considering the extremes/limits first, and then start adding other factors :)
@@TimRobertsen, his example wasn't actually AT the north pole, just at a high latitude NEAR the north pole. Hence, you could still shoot east and west.
Bless you, thank you for your ability and willingness to pass along your understanding of the physics and mathematics involved in these realities for shooters!!
Awesome explanation. I just got my first bolt action rifle.. haven't even shot it yet and I'm.l already down the rabbit hole learning. Interesting stuff!
@@garnet4846 Your personal incredulity is "Proof" of only your willful ignorance. Perhaps graduating high school would be a good start to disproving over 2000 years of established science?
@@garnet4846 I could explain the difference in the two physics experiments you mention above, but you need at least a high school grasp of basic physics to understand it. You need to know the concepts of "mass" and "Inertia" and "Momentum". In both cases (Balloon or Bullet) the objects leave the "connection" with the earth but still have the same "momentum" as they had when moving with the earth. In some orientations of ballistics, the rotation of the earth makes no difference to the shot. Some shots it DOES make a difference. The mechanical "artillery computers" in the artillery for the US guns in Korea had Gyrocompasses that could find true north based solely on the rotation of the earth. It used this information in the firing solution. Part of my JOB of the last 30 years has been testing ring-laser, fiber-optic and hemi-spherical resonating gyroscopes before installation onto multi-Billion-dollar vehicles. For ~30 years I have been testing these "Gyros" USING EARTH ROTATION AS THE STIMULUS. But please do go ahead and lecture me about basic physics. Check back after you get to high school.
@@garnet4846 Let me ask you this: Could you Play POOL (Billiards) on a MOVING TRAIN moving in a perfectly straight line at constant velocity? Does the absolute value of the velocity ("speed") MATTER? (10MPH? 500MPH?) How about if the train is going around a very long bend that is barely perceptible to the occupants? Would that throw off your game?
Really nice explanations. I teach atmosphere/ocean dynamics and have to spend a fair amount of time on this stuff. The math is one thing (tensors!), but coming up with good, consistent physical explanations for these effects in a spherical geometry is challenging.
Agreed! I'm satisfied with my explanations except in the case of Coriolis effect, shooting E or W... it just *seems like it shouldn't be the same drift as a N or S facing shot but all directions of fire give you the same Coriolis drift at a given latitude. LMK if you think of a better way to explain this please.
For those interested, this is why we usually launch rockets to the east when we want to get them in orbit. Takes less fuel to reach orbital velocities.
- "this is why we usually launch rockets to the east when we want to get them in orbit. I actually forgot this when first starting Kerbal space and couldn't figure out how my first Gen rockets were not capable of reaching orbit. I flipped by launch direction and went the opposite direction and made it first try. Don't try retrograde orbits with marginal delta-V
@@stuartgray5877 You should have just added more boosters, for that is the Kerbal way! Delta-V is always the answer. Missed transfer window? Add more boosters and tanks!
Yes, it is weird, and until recently, the Cestral did not "calculate " for it. In WW1 and WW1, the men firing long-range cannons and artillery didn't realize you had to lead a sitting object
In past, firearms weren't always accurate enough to notice the minor deflection caused by these effects. These days, with precision rifles you can hold
The world record shot at 4.4 miles, the bullet was in the air for 24 seconds and the shooter did not calculate for Coriolis. He said, a difference in 1 mph wind, overrides any coriolis calculations. .
@@Wheelchair-bear Agreed. If you are just shooting and adjusting till you hit the target, there is no need to calculate in advance. I think artillery shells care a lot more because they are less affected by the wind and can shoot many miles.
Something about your statement and what he said in his own words doesn’t add up. When he said the equator is moving faster than the poles. Think about that if you take a ball and you spin that ball HTF does the larger diameter spin faster then the smaller diameters guess what the answer to that question is. I’ll give you some time to figure it out.
@@cyphersurmiseful the equator is moving at a LINEAR VELOCITY that is greater than the linear velocity near the poles The entire earth is rotating at the same ROTATIONAL rate (Angular velocity)
I tried to ask this question on Sniper's Hide but something went wrong. So I'll try again: Is the following statement true: the Coriolis effect is more related to the time of flight of the bullet than to the range of the shot itself? If I shoot subsonic bullets 250-350 meters (mostly), then given the relatively long flight time, the Coriolis effect in this case must be understood and taken into account. Although I use Kestrel and everything is automatically taken into account there, I was always interested in this nuance
It's a very good question. The effects, both vertical and horizontal are more affected by muzzle velocity than time of flight. Higher muzzle velocities cause an increase in the vertical effect; however, the reverse is true for the horizontal effect, where high velocities reduce the horizontal Coriolis drift.
Hey cool. I was asked by a friend years ago about this for target rifle shooting. That's up to 1000m. So I wrote a spreadsheet with the variables, target distance, azimuth, latitude, muzzle velocity, terminal velocity and perhaps one or two I can't remember. Was a fun exercise. I seem to have lost the spreadsheet though. :( The pseudo forces you refer to is Earth moving to goal posts after you pull the trigger. So not fair. At the end of the day, my friend shooting open sights need not be concerned. I wonder at what range with scope it does start to be worth considering though. I used to be a shooter but over 50 years ago. I did a bit of bench rest target shooting. Smallest grouping was the aim then.
I teach non-engineers Missiles and part of Missile Defense and I start students off gently with the flat earth approximation. But make it clear that it’s all a lie. In our case the variation of gravity with altitude becomes significant quickly (real not pseudoforce) in addition to all the spherical rotation stuff. But as they’re not engineers I don’t make them do the math…
If I'm shooting due east, or due west, the Coriolis effect should be zero, as the projectile isn't crossing any latitudes during it's flight. In other words, the target and the shooter are moving at the same lateral velocity (zero, when facing due east or west), so there's no lateral delta-V. Great. You covered that. But as you shoot north and south of the equator, from the equator, the projectile is now moving through latitudes where there *IS* delta-V. Shouldn't there be a Coriolis effect at those angles? At 30° Latitude, the Coriolis should be nearly zero, as you are shooting due East and due West (or an angle close to it, as you're still acounting for Eötvös), as the latitudes the projectile is passing through on the way to the target are only at a minimally different velocity than the shooter. Am I missing something?
I know; It is difficult to see how you get the same horizontal drift (Coriolis) for all directions of fire at a particular latitude. I've struggled to come up with better visualizations for how and why it works, but the merry-go-round is the best I can do. The science is clear on Coriolis being equal for all azimuth's, even if it's hard to visualize.
9:24 It's not so much that the Coriolis goes to zero, it's that the Coriolis forces are in a plane that's perpendicular to the Earth's axis wherever you are, but the earth's surface has different angles to the axis at different lattitudes. What's being called "Coriolis" and "Eötvös" forces are just the surface-parallel and surface-perpendicular components of the actual Coriolis force.
True. I made this video for practical marksman, who will observe no horizontal deflection at the equator which I interchange with 'no effect'. But you are correct, there is still a Coriolis 'effect' at the equator, but there is no deflection due to the effect in that case, for the reasons you said. I've used the nomenclature 'vertical and horizontal components of Coriolis' for years. It seems the vertical component of Coriolis is more commonly known as Etovos. Regardless, I'm not as big on the names as the concepts and how they apply for practical marksman. Thank you for your comment!
What's frightening is the amount of thinking that people don't have to do anymore because they have computers. The group of people who understand the core principles of the way things work is shrinking for an end-user model of planning and thinking. Everyone knows what things do, but have no clue why or how at the root.
These things were derived in the 17th and 18th centuries. Those brains even understood why the ocean gets a bulge under a stationary high-pressure system (while increased pressure "logically" should push the water surface down). Physics is awesome 👍
Not generally relevant to rifle fire (except celebratory gunfire), but another effect (strongest at the equator, zero at the poles) is that shots traveling upward are deflected west and shots traveling downward are deflected east.
Yes, gravity IS A FORCE. Unless you are an astrophysicist. Gravity 100% meets the definition of the word "force". Don't let a bunch of theoretical physicists confuse us.
The 6.5 is basically a 1 MOA rifle unless you spend a boat load of money trying to make it something it was never intended to be. At 1500 yards the energy loss leaves far less than ethical energy and the inherent accuracy is somewhere in a circle with a diameter of 150 inches… that’s 12.5 feet… making it useless from a reliability standpoint.
@@R3DP1LL808 - "If the Coriolis effect was real with respect to a rotating Earth, no airplane in the world could land on a north-south runway near the equator." The effect is so small it makes no difference to an aircraft. Do try to keep up with the grownups.
Pseudo forces lol AKA you, like everyone that tries to explain this, have zero real understanding of whats going on, but you know how to do some calculations that make your long range shots more accurate.
"A fictitious force is a force that appears to act on a mass whose motion is described using a non-inertial frame of reference, such as a linearly accelerating or rotating reference frame. Fictitious forces are invoked to maintain the validity and thus use of Newton's second law of motion, in frames of reference which are not inertial." At my university we call them inertial forces, but the principle remains the same. It is basic classical mechanics.
Here's an example from Harvard Universities Natural Sciences Department with a cool video demonstrating the merry-go-round example I mentioned. sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/coriolis-force Pseudo force just means it arises from the error between the frame of reference used in the ballistic model (square Cartesian) and the actual rotating spherical system we occupy. These effects appear as 'pseudo' forces because there's no where they'd come from in a flat/square reference frame, but they are there.
Interesting, isn't it! As space-time now appears to be emergent rather than fundamental... who knows how much of our physical understanding of forces, energy and momentum will change! If Stephen Wolfram is right about computational irreducibility, and us being computationally bounded observers... we just might be stuck with pseudo-representations of our entire universe.
All your math uses right angles , there are no right angles when dealing with lat and long , because the earth is a "ball" corealis is not factored when sniping . Worlds best sniper says so on Shawn Ryan's podcast . If the spin of the earth was considered in long range shots one would have to know the exact lat and longs plus direction , pseudo forces sounds more like pseudo science.
Snipers don't take it into account because at 45 deg north latitude it would only move a .338 Lapua magnum bullet about 60 - 70mm to the right at a range of 1000m on a north or south shot.
@@parapelegicBUD Hmmm...... Thats odd. Because the Hornaday online 4DOF Ballistic Calculator has a box that you can check for "Earth based Effects" and a whole paragraph about how they account for earth rotation effects. I guess Hornaday doesn't know anything about ballistics. The Korean war artillery "computers" incorporated gyrocompass data AND Coriolis forces into the firing solution. Tell us all how gyrocompasses work. Any ADULTS that entertain that the earth is flat, are "special needs".
Your full of crap, go to any sniper forum! We never compensate for earth rotation! I also have an email from the world record holder for the longest shot of 4.4 miles claiming no compensation for rotation.you ever been in combat, we don't sit around with a calculator figuring corolis. Even if your right the earth is spinning at 1500 feet per second, you could Cath anything moving left to right that fast
- "Your full of crap, go to any sniper forum! We never compensate for earth rotation! " Hmmm...... Thats odd. Because the Hornaday online 4DOF Ballistic Calculator has a box that you can check for "Earth based Effects" and a whole paragraph about how they account for earth rotation effects. I guess Hornaday doesn't know anything about ballistics. The Korean war artillery "computers" incorporated gyrocompass data AND Coriolis forces into the firing solution. Tell us all how gyrocompasses work. Any ADULTS that entertain that the earth is flat, are "special needs".
brian - "Or run away like a coward. Your choice." I guess you made your choice. You make an idiotic statement, then when corrected you run away like a coward. Are you TWELVE?
The artillery "computers" (they were mechanical) in the Korean war were equipped with Gyrocompasses to find true north and feed that data into the artillery computers. Care to tell us the theory of operation of the gyrocompass?
@@jamesmann3158 Most people do not own the equipment necessary to prove, or disprove the assertion made in this video, myself included. Of the few that do, most do not posses the skill to achieve what you are asking. Bullet spin drift and wind accounts for whatever shift people are ascribing to the corriolis effect. If you aren’t shooting substantially past 1,000 yards, with no wind, and a highly efficient round that has enough velocity to get to the distance where it might matter, you’ll never adjust for it.
The Coriolis effect is zero at the equator and planes interact with the air for lift anyway. It's the Eötvös effect that is greater at the equator and that would only slightly lengthen or shorten the landing rollout if landing or taking off from an east-west runway. It would be like an average plane like a Boeing 777 having one extra (or one less) passenger onboard.
The Coriolis or Eötvös effects are so minimal that for airplanes they do NOT even have to account for it. short term turbulence creates more of an error than either of those two.
To think that back in the day you had to learn this, no portable calculators to work it out, but only when your shooting very long distances, like say 1,000 yards + out to over 2,500 meters. Like the longest kill shot to date by Canadian army sniper in Afghanistan. 👍👍🦘🦘
There's so much that comes into the calculations bullet weight velocity, which without knowing the velocity, its best guess IMHO, so like i mentioned just think of knowing the math's of the calculation based on all the data of the projectile, velocity barrel twist rate, lands and groves of the barrel, barrel length ,what its made out of, as resistance plays a part as well, then not having the velocity of the projectile, unless the manufacture has those data points, then and maybe then you can make a correction on the scope at long distances shorter distance will not atter and i wonder if the scopes these days will have the correction built into it for ELD shooting. like say anything over 1,000 yards upto 5 mile shooting targets like on u tube uploads with 406 cheytac and .338 and .50 cal weapon systems. Now thats insane distances really, plus your never ever ever going to shoot at those distance's ,they do it to prove it can be done. 👍👍👌👌🦘🦘
I’d like to see a discussion like this for artillery and/or naval gunnery.
FM 6-40 MCWP 3-16.4
Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for the Field Artillery Manual Cannon Gunnery
Replace Figure 7-1, Page 7-1 with the following:
STANDARD CONDITIONS
WEATHER
1 AIR TEMPERATURE 100 PERCENT (59° F)
2 AIR DENSITY 100 PERCENT (1,225 gm/m3) IND
3 NO Wind
POSITION
1 GUN, TARGET AND MDP AT SAME ALTITUDE
2 ACCURATE RANGE
3 NO ROTATION OF THE EARTH
MATERIAL
1 STANDARD WEAPON, PROJECTILE, AND FUZE
2 PROPELLANT TEMPERATURE (70° F)
3 LEVEL TRUNNIONS AND PRECISION SETTINGS
4 FIRING TABLE MUZZLE VELOCITY
5 NO DRIFT
LEGEND: gm/m3 - grams per cubic meter
@@RMS-gl6wl Some of the artillery "Computers" (mechanical) used gyrocompasses to find true north to help with the earth motion-based effects.
Ask one of these flat earthers to explain the theory of operation of the 100-year-old (STILL IN USE TODAY) gyrocompass. You won't hear from them again.
Fascinating, and very nicely done. At first, I couldn't understand why there was a right hand deflection in the northern hemisphere when shooting both east and west. But when you showed how things work near the pole, I got it! The target is essentially moving out of the way after the shot is fired. (I find I often grasp ideas better when they are taken to a limit.)
The diagrams went by a little fast for me, but I could pause and rewind until I got it.
Thanks again!
Check out gyroscopic precession. Anything that spins is effected to varying degrees.
The main thing about the northern pole is that which ever way you point the weapon, every direction is south (southern pole is the opposite: north). I also find it easier considering the extremes/limits first, and then start adding other factors :)
@@TimRobertsen, his example wasn't actually AT the north pole, just at a high latitude NEAR the north pole. Hence, you could still shoot east and west.
Your point of impact simulation is fantastic. A really useful teaching tool.
Thank you, I'm glad you found it helpful!
Bless you, thank you for your ability and willingness to pass along your understanding of the physics and mathematics involved in these realities for shooters!!
Awesome explanation. I just got my first bolt action rifle.. haven't even shot it yet and I'm.l already down the rabbit hole learning. Interesting stuff!
Can't wait to see some flerfers show up. Ought to be entertaining.
Nice presentation.
Lol, earth spins under a bullet but not a hot air balloon.
@@garnet4846 Your personal incredulity is "Proof" of only your willful ignorance.
Perhaps graduating high school would be a good start to disproving over 2000 years of established science?
@@stuartgray5877 can you address the actual comment made? Or do you just parrot the same bs everywhere?
@@garnet4846 I could explain the difference in the two physics experiments you mention above, but you need at least a high school grasp of basic physics to understand it.
You need to know the concepts of "mass" and "Inertia" and "Momentum".
In both cases (Balloon or Bullet) the objects leave the "connection" with the earth but still have the same "momentum" as they had when moving with the earth. In some orientations of ballistics, the rotation of the earth makes no difference to the shot. Some shots it DOES make a difference.
The mechanical "artillery computers" in the artillery for the US guns in Korea had Gyrocompasses that could find true north based solely on the rotation of the earth. It used this information in the firing solution.
Part of my JOB of the last 30 years has been testing ring-laser, fiber-optic and hemi-spherical resonating gyroscopes before installation onto multi-Billion-dollar vehicles.
For ~30 years I have been testing these "Gyros" USING EARTH ROTATION AS THE STIMULUS.
But please do go ahead and lecture me about basic physics.
Check back after you get to high school.
@@garnet4846 Let me ask you this: Could you Play POOL (Billiards) on a MOVING TRAIN moving in a perfectly straight line at constant velocity? Does the absolute value of the velocity ("speed") MATTER? (10MPH? 500MPH?)
How about if the train is going around a very long bend that is barely perceptible to the occupants? Would that throw off your game?
thanks for the video, I got started long range shooting after reading your book. Happy to see videos.
This really helped these concepts gel in my head, thank you Bryan!
keep them coming and i will keep pressing like button.
I love these videos!!! Thank you!!
Well done Bryan. Using a spinning board would have been useful using a marble to show deflections.
Really nice explanations. I teach atmosphere/ocean dynamics and have to spend a fair amount of time on this stuff. The math is one thing (tensors!), but coming up with good, consistent physical explanations for these effects in a spherical geometry is challenging.
Agreed! I'm satisfied with my explanations except in the case of Coriolis effect, shooting E or W... it just *seems like it shouldn't be the same drift as a N or S facing shot but all directions of fire give you the same Coriolis drift at a given latitude. LMK if you think of a better way to explain this please.
For those interested, this is why we usually launch rockets to the east when we want to get them in orbit. Takes less fuel to reach orbital velocities.
You mean the rockets that go in the ocean?
- "this is why we usually launch rockets to the east when we want to get them in orbit.
I actually forgot this when first starting Kerbal space and couldn't figure out how my first Gen rockets were not capable of reaching orbit.
I flipped by launch direction and went the opposite direction and made it first try.
Don't try retrograde orbits with marginal delta-V
@@stuartgray5877 the guy talking about graduating high school plays video games. Lol.
@@stuartgray5877 the only thing going to space is your imagination.
@@stuartgray5877 You should have just added more boosters, for that is the Kerbal way! Delta-V is always the answer. Missed transfer window? Add more boosters and tanks!
Weird how people were making longrange shots before they knew about "Coriolis effect". And doing so in every direction from their position.
Yes, it is weird, and until recently, the Cestral did not "calculate " for it. In WW1 and WW1, the men firing long-range cannons and artillery didn't realize you had to lead a sitting object
In past, firearms weren't always accurate enough to notice the minor deflection caused by these effects.
These days, with precision rifles you can hold
@BryanLitzBallistics And you have to shoot BEYOND 1200 yards to even notice the effects. Even with NO WIND, the shooter is not likely to notice.
The world record shot at 4.4 miles, the bullet was in the air for 24 seconds and the shooter did not calculate for Coriolis. He said, a difference in 1 mph wind, overrides any coriolis calculations.
.
@@Wheelchair-bear Agreed. If you are just shooting and adjusting till you hit the target, there is no need to calculate in advance.
I think artillery shells care a lot more because they are less affected by the wind and can shoot many miles.
The merry go round was an excellent analogy and easily understood by a knucklehead like me 😀😀😀😀
Since the gravitational pull of the moon can effect oceans, I suspect it can effect bullet trajectory.
Technically it does, but it is negligible
And since there is 2 high tides and 2 low tides a day, there must be another force we can't see that we must take into calculation.
In other words. you CANNOT be a flat earther and shoot long range at the same time.
I'm a centristbon the "flat/spherical earth argument." I believe it's flat on top and hemispherical on the bottom. :^)
😂
Something about your statement and what he said in his own words doesn’t add up. When he said the equator is moving faster than the poles. Think about that if you take a ball and you spin that ball HTF does the larger diameter spin faster then the smaller diameters guess what the answer to that question is. I’ll give you some time to figure it out.
@@cyphersurmiseful the equator is moving at a LINEAR VELOCITY that is greater than the linear velocity near the poles
The entire earth is rotating at the same ROTATIONAL rate (Angular velocity)
Incredible that we have such unintelligible people in 2024
I tried to ask this question on Sniper's Hide but something went wrong. So I'll try again:
Is the following statement true: the Coriolis effect is more related to the time of flight of the bullet than to the range of the shot itself?
If I shoot subsonic bullets 250-350 meters (mostly), then given the relatively long flight time, the Coriolis effect in this case must be understood and taken into account.
Although I use Kestrel and everything is automatically taken into account there, I was always interested in this nuance
It's a very good question. The effects, both vertical and horizontal are more affected by muzzle velocity than time of flight.
Higher muzzle velocities cause an increase in the vertical effect; however, the reverse is true for the horizontal effect, where high velocities reduce the horizontal Coriolis drift.
Good Q thanks to both of you for asking him, and for answering.
Greetings from south Texas! Latitude 27 degrees. Great explanation very useful. All the best
Hey cool. I was asked by a friend years ago about this for target rifle shooting. That's up to 1000m. So I wrote a spreadsheet with the variables, target distance, azimuth, latitude, muzzle velocity, terminal velocity and perhaps one or two I can't remember. Was a fun exercise. I seem to have lost the spreadsheet though. :(
The pseudo forces you refer to is Earth moving to goal posts after you pull the trigger. So not fair.
At the end of the day, my friend shooting open sights need not be concerned. I wonder at what range with scope it does start to be worth considering though. I used to be a shooter but over 50 years ago. I did a bit of bench rest target shooting. Smallest grouping was the aim then.
so good , thank you for the priceless knowledge
I teach non-engineers Missiles and part of Missile Defense and I start students off gently with the flat earth approximation. But make it clear that it’s all a lie. In our case the variation of gravity with altitude becomes significant quickly (real not pseudoforce) in addition to all the spherical rotation stuff. But as they’re not engineers I don’t make them do the math…
Thank you so much. I want to learn all I can.
Bryan thats like a Christmas gift to all of us!
If I'm shooting due east, or due west, the Coriolis effect should be zero, as the projectile isn't crossing any latitudes during it's flight. In other words, the target and the shooter are moving at the same lateral velocity (zero, when facing due east or west), so there's no lateral delta-V. Great. You covered that. But as you shoot north and south of the equator, from the equator, the projectile is now moving through latitudes where there *IS* delta-V. Shouldn't there be a Coriolis effect at those angles?
At 30° Latitude, the Coriolis should be nearly zero, as you are shooting due East and due West (or an angle close to it, as you're still acounting for Eötvös), as the latitudes the projectile is passing through on the way to the target are only at a minimally different velocity than the shooter.
Am I missing something?
I know; It is difficult to see how you get the same horizontal drift (Coriolis) for all directions of fire at a particular latitude. I've struggled to come up with better visualizations for how and why it works, but the merry-go-round is the best I can do. The science is clear on Coriolis being equal for all azimuth's, even if it's hard to visualize.
@BryanLitzBallistics Is there a centrifugal component to the Coriolis, instead of JUST the delta-V of the merry-go-round flat example?
9:24 It's not so much that the Coriolis goes to zero, it's that the Coriolis forces are in a plane that's perpendicular to the Earth's axis wherever you are, but the earth's surface has different angles to the axis at different lattitudes.
What's being called "Coriolis" and "Eötvös" forces are just the surface-parallel and surface-perpendicular components of the actual Coriolis force.
True.
I made this video for practical marksman, who will observe no horizontal deflection at the equator which I interchange with 'no effect'. But you are correct, there is still a Coriolis 'effect' at the equator, but there is no deflection due to the effect in that case, for the reasons you said.
I've used the nomenclature 'vertical and horizontal components of Coriolis' for years. It seems the vertical component of Coriolis is more commonly known as Etovos. Regardless, I'm not as big on the names as the concepts and how they apply for practical marksman.
Thank you for your comment!
I can't imagine how they programmed this math in the 50s to steer an ICBM
Smart people with slide rulers.
What's frightening is the amount of thinking that people don't have to do anymore because they have computers. The group of people who understand the core principles of the way things work is shrinking for an end-user model of planning and thinking. Everyone knows what things do, but have no clue why or how at the root.
These things were derived in the 17th and 18th centuries. Those brains even understood why the ocean gets a bulge under a stationary high-pressure system (while increased pressure "logically" should push the water surface down). Physics is awesome 👍
@@SFUndertaker Id BET that they don't even make actual Engineers learn calculus any longer.
As an engineering student, we are absolutely being taught calculus… a whole heck of a lot of it too.
Not generally relevant to rifle fire (except celebratory gunfire), but another effect (strongest at the equator, zero at the poles) is that shots traveling upward are deflected west and shots traveling downward are deflected east.
Thank you.
can you please explain this to all the flatearthers in the back please????
You cannot "show" science and physics to those morons. They EAT the textbooks.
Technically gravity ain't a force either. Shooting guns and physics, this is awesome
Yes, gravity IS A FORCE. Unless you are an astrophysicist.
Gravity 100% meets the definition of the word "force".
Don't let a bunch of theoretical physicists confuse us.
and this is why I time my shots to when the earth is not rotating
The flat earthers are choking on their dinner !!!! LOL !!!
But what if the earth is flat? :)
Booo lol
And if your mother had a wheel she would be a wheelbarrow.
Instructions unclear ; bullet went all the way around and almost hit me. 😮 😂🤣🤣🤣
The 6.5 is basically a 1 MOA rifle unless you spend a boat load of money trying to make it something it was never intended to be. At 1500 yards the energy loss leaves far less than ethical energy and the inherent accuracy is somewhere in a circle with a diameter of 150 inches… that’s 12.5 feet… making it useless from a reliability standpoint.
I'll use this video when I need something to counter the Flat Earthers.
What? Top goes dark last on the west face of a mountain.
If the Coriolis effect was real with respect to a rotating Earth, no airplane in the world could land on a north-south runway near the equator.
@@R3DP1LL808What? No, they absolutely can, and do
@@R3DP1LL808 - "If the Coriolis effect was real with respect to a rotating Earth, no airplane in the world could land on a north-south runway near the equator."
The effect is so small it makes no difference to an aircraft.
Do try to keep up with the grownups.
sounds fine but some is not quite right
Pseudo forces lol AKA you, like everyone that tries to explain this, have zero real understanding of whats going on, but you know how to do some calculations that make your long range shots more accurate.
"A fictitious force is a force that appears to act on a mass whose motion is described using a non-inertial frame of reference, such as a linearly accelerating or rotating reference frame. Fictitious forces are invoked to maintain the validity and thus use of Newton's second law of motion, in frames of reference which are not inertial."
At my university we call them inertial forces, but the principle remains the same. It is basic classical mechanics.
Here's an example from Harvard Universities Natural Sciences Department with a cool video demonstrating the merry-go-round example I mentioned.
sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/coriolis-force
Pseudo force just means it arises from the error between the frame of reference used in the ballistic model (square Cartesian) and the actual rotating spherical system we occupy. These effects appear as 'pseudo' forces because there's no where they'd come from in a flat/square reference frame, but they are there.
0:50 Actually, once you get into General Relativity, gravity itself turns out to be a pseudo-force.
Interesting, isn't it!
As space-time now appears to be emergent rather than fundamental... who knows how much of our physical understanding of forces, energy and momentum will change! If Stephen Wolfram is right about computational irreducibility, and us being computationally bounded observers... we just might be stuck with pseudo-representations of our entire universe.
😂
All your math uses right angles , there are no right angles when dealing with lat and long , because the earth is a "ball" corealis is not factored when sniping . Worlds best sniper says so on Shawn Ryan's podcast . If the spin of the earth was considered in long range shots one would have to know the exact lat and longs plus direction , pseudo forces sounds more like pseudo science.
Snipers don't take it into account because at 45 deg north latitude it would only move a .338 Lapua magnum bullet about 60 - 70mm to the right at a range of 1000m on a north or south shot.
@@mirandahotspring4019not provable
Still a fact.
@@mirandahotspring4019 are u vax damaged?
@@parapelegicBUD Hmmm...... Thats odd.
Because the Hornaday online 4DOF Ballistic Calculator has a box that you can check for "Earth based Effects" and a whole paragraph about how they account for earth rotation effects.
I guess Hornaday doesn't know anything about ballistics.
The Korean war artillery "computers" incorporated gyrocompass data AND Coriolis forces into the firing solution.
Tell us all how gyrocompasses work.
Any ADULTS that entertain that the earth is flat, are "special needs".
Your full of crap, go to any sniper forum! We never compensate for earth rotation! I also have an email from the world record holder for the longest shot of 4.4 miles claiming no compensation for rotation.you ever been in combat, we don't sit around with a calculator figuring corolis. Even if your right the earth is spinning at 1500 feet per second, you could Cath anything moving left to right that fast
- "Your full of crap, go to any sniper forum! We never compensate for earth rotation! "
Hmmm...... Thats odd.
Because the Hornaday online 4DOF Ballistic Calculator has a box that you can check for "Earth based Effects" and a whole paragraph about how they account for earth rotation effects.
I guess Hornaday doesn't know anything about ballistics.
The Korean war artillery "computers" incorporated gyrocompass data AND Coriolis forces into the firing solution.
Tell us all how gyrocompasses work.
Any ADULTS that entertain that the earth is flat, are "special needs".
I would love to see you catch (Cath?) a brick moving at 1500fps.
- "Tell us all how gyrocompasses work."
Or run away like a coward. Your choice.
brian - "Or run away like a coward. Your choice."
I guess you made your choice. You make an idiotic statement, then when corrected you run away like a coward.
Are you TWELVE?
No. Just no.
Yes actually.
Please elaborate. Or better yet, go get your rifle and prove your position. Post the video and link it here so we can all learn something new.
The artillery "computers" (they were mechanical) in the Korean war were equipped with Gyrocompasses to find true north and feed that data into the artillery computers.
Care to tell us the theory of operation of the gyrocompass?
@@jamesmann3158 Most people do not own the equipment necessary to prove, or disprove the assertion made in this video, myself included.
Of the few that do, most do not posses the skill to achieve what you are asking. Bullet spin drift and wind accounts for whatever shift people are ascribing to the corriolis effect.
If you aren’t shooting substantially past 1,000 yards, with no wind, and a highly efficient round that has enough velocity to get to the distance where it might matter, you’ll never adjust for it.
If the Coriolis effect was real with respect to a rotating Earth, no airplane in the world could land on a north-south runway near the equator.
The Coriolis effect is zero at the equator and planes interact with the air for lift anyway. It's the Eötvös effect that is greater at the equator and that would only slightly lengthen or shorten the landing rollout if landing or taking off from an east-west runway. It would be like an average plane like a Boeing 777 having one extra (or one less) passenger onboard.
The Coriolis or Eötvös effects are so minimal that for airplanes they do NOT even have to account for it. short term turbulence creates more of an error than either of those two.
You can't grasp what you just watched. Adorable.
To think that back in the day you had to learn this, no portable calculators to work it out, but only when your shooting very long distances, like say 1,000 yards + out to over 2,500 meters. Like the longest kill shot to date by Canadian army sniper in Afghanistan. 👍👍🦘🦘
There's so much that comes into the calculations bullet weight velocity, which without knowing the velocity, its best guess IMHO, so like i mentioned just think of knowing the math's of the calculation based on all the data of the projectile, velocity barrel twist rate, lands and groves of the barrel, barrel length ,what its made out of, as resistance plays a part as well, then not having the velocity of the projectile, unless the manufacture has those data points, then and maybe then you can make a correction on the scope at long distances shorter distance will not atter and i wonder if the scopes these days will have the correction built into it for ELD shooting. like say anything over 1,000 yards upto 5 mile shooting targets like on u tube uploads with 406 cheytac and .338 and .50 cal weapon systems.
Now thats insane distances really, plus your never ever ever going to shoot at those distance's ,they do it to prove it can be done. 👍👍👌👌🦘🦘