Fluted Barrels and Boat Tail Bullets? Season 2: Episode 2
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- Опубліковано 13 лют 2022
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! In this episode, I answer your questions about fluted barrels, boat tail bullets, and more.
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Website: ronspomeroutdoors.com/
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media.com/
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
The “strength” argument for a fluted barrel is not that you increase strength by adding flutes thus removing material, rather that for a given weight a fluted barrel is stronger than a non fluted barrel. You have a “thicker” diameter barrel with flutes that weighs the same as a thinner barrel without. And then the increased surface area cooling thing.
Thanks for your insights, Drew. I knew I could count on my listeners for extra value!
But wouldn’t the flutes be creating a “path of least resistance” by having a weaker area in one area.
Personally I think that the flutes disrupt the flex because the forces are not evenly spread throughout the material.
@@user-pq4by2rq9y No it just comes down to geometry. The perpendicular to the bore flute material is more difficult to flex than if the same mass was parralel to the radical force coming from the bore.
This is why leaf springs and I beams are shaped the way they are.
@@cornpopishuntersrealdaddy4690 Specific alloys of aluminium like T6 are stronger than steel for specific characteristics of that strength like rigidity. The issues with aluminium isn't rigidity so much as friction, work hardening, low wear resistance, low mass, etc. It is an excellent conductor of heat though so adding a fluted heat dissipating aluminium shroud to a pencil barrel makes sense and was kind of done to some WW1/2 Machine guns.
The basic idea of fluting was not removing material from a larger barrel but more so adding reenforcement ribs to a smaller overall size barrel think about how big the overall barrel size is at the base of the fluting that would be the old fashion barrel size then you have the raised flutes outside of it like welding angle iron length wise down a round pipe .
Glad others have jumped in already on how the "strength" is from starting with an initially larger barrel, then fluting it to a lighter weight and with increased surface area. Thumbs up!
Your voice and the SM-7B were made for each other. Spot on audio. Great content as always. Thanks Ron
You must be a sound tech, Just. Thanks for the compliment and for listening.
I was going to say Hornady figured out the 30-30 with the LeverEvolution. Never had an issue. Good questions and great video.
The lever evolution is a powder made to get faster fps the flex tip that hornady makes gets higher B.C.
Ron is a natural for podcasts !
I listen to all of them !!
this is great hope Ron keeps them coming 👍
Enjoy all your video's Ron. Thanks for your years of service to the shooting industry.
Glad I found your podcast sir! Love your videos. The ridges in a pickup bed make it stiffer with out adding weight, not sure if it makes sense in a rifle barrel. I will leave that to smarter people than me.
I just love this channel there’s always something to be learned i literally watch episode after episode when i finish work late a night
Nice to hear, Dave. Thanks.
Hello I appreciate the detailed explanations in your videos 👍🏻
Thanks John. We'll keep trying.
Additional fluted barrel theory: Compared to a barrel of the same diameter there is no pro to a fluted barrel besides weight savings and added surface area. The real pro comes from comparing the fluted barrel to a barrel with the same diameter as the bottom of the flutes. The fluted barrel will be stiffer and heavier hopefully allowing for more consistent accuracy after the first shot. The real benefit is in load development and sighting in so, theoretically you don’t have to wait as much between shots.
So you're talking about what amounts to adding material atop the flutes rather than subtracting material by scooping flutes into the barrel. If barrel were diameter of the bottom of the flutes all the way 'round, it would be much thinner/lighter. Starging with thicker barrel and then fluting to the thin barrel diameter is then sort of a compromise. But wouldn't you get the same results by splitting the difference? Seems so long as barrel of given length and bore is X weight, stiffness and cooling would be same. Unless there is appreciable stiffness similar to corrugated steel roof slabs.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast I think you may be right on the split difference. Fluting looks cool to though! Can’t disregard that fact. I just paid good money to get my new barrel spiral fluted and the cool factor will likely be the biggest plus.
It was my understanding that a fluted barrel retrained most of the stiffness of a Bull barrel without the weight,yet was significantly stiffer than a standard barrel.
@@robertlivingston1634 I think RSO nailed it. Compared to a barrel with the same diametre as at the "bottom" of the flutes, the barrel stiffness will be the same. As Ron points out, a barrel with metal removed to create the flutes, would become hotter, far more quickly than an un-fluted barrel..
@@robertlivingston1634 That’s what was explained. You can’t make anything stiffer by just removing material. But a fluted, larger diameter Barrel will be stiffer than a sporter barrel.
Thanks again Ron, for sharing your thoughts on this and other hunting tools, adventures and gear we all use. So many different opinions on barrel length, strength, shape or other things related to a barrel. I’m all for better, lighter, more accurate tools for those who spend our hard earned money on. Good shooting and good gear to you all. 🎥💪🏽💯👍
Bring back the unglamorous savage 340, great youth rifle and you'd have a 30 30 you could play with safely loading different boat tail , and performance bullets.
I have a 222, 22 hornet and the 30/30 in the savage 340B and 340E. Love those old guns.
My neighbor had one in .30-30 and for his hunting conditions it was all he needed. I had one in .22 Hornet and it was a great rifle to carry in my farm pickup. Guy I bought it from talked me into selling it back to him. Missed the Hornet so got a Ruger and it takes care of most of my plinking needs from starlings and pigeons up to coyotes.
Hornady now has what is called "LEVERevolution Ammunition 30-30 Winchester 160 Grain". It has a soft pointed tip and has a G1 Ballistic Coefficient of 0.33.
I've used some of that ammo and it does add to the external ballistics of the 30-30 but I found if I left the ammo in my lever action very long it deformed the plastic tip and once removed the tips stayed deformed thus changing the center of pressure on the bullet and became less accurate. This is just my experience and it may differ with others.
@@russellkeeling4387 Leaving the ammunition in the tube causing tip deformation. Wow, I haven't experienced this as I store my gun empty, but that is excellent information to know. I wonder what the time frame is; hours - days- weeks. Thanks for your reply.
@@atkindable I don't store my rifle loaded. The deforming of the tip happens during a day of carrying the rifle in the field. In the warmth of the house the tips will reshape themselves but in the cold they will stay deformed until warmed.
Started making fluted barrels at McMillan/Wiseman McMillan/Bill WiseMan back in the early 1980’s. Fluted if cut right add ridigity. I would not recommend fluting thin barrels. The wall is too thin between the bottom of the grove and bottom of flute. Flutes should be thin and used on rifles that will be shot multiple times at one sitting, such as a varmint rifle. Please keep in mind they change the heat curve. Many Pro’s & Cons. Decide what is right for your application. Will be at the NRA Show in may with some barrel blanks for display that you can pick up at handle.
Here is an idea Ron ! Tell us about the affects on accuracy when shooting in the rain ! I’ve never heard that covered !
Full disclosure, I am not a barrel maker but am an engineer. The flutes could relieve internal stresses within the barrel that lead to slightly better harmonics. This may result in better accuracy. In some precision machining operations, we make relief cuts in extremely hard materials to prevent cracking. For a barrel in a production gun, it probably doesn't make enough of a differnece to matter. Looks cool though!
It would be interesting to compare barrels of identical mass and material but different barrel profile, fluted vs nonfluted, especially the range or cycle of harmonic whip as measured by groups at varying charge weights.
I'm liking the podcasts
Thanks moto.
Dear Ron
Thanks for all the useful information you share, the fluted barrel simply stronger than the same weight barrel because of the given structured profile and more importantly more resistant to the harmonic wave which is extremely important if you can have a barrel with the same weight with less harmonics. The removed material effect on getting heat faster is smaller than the effect of the additional surface helping to cooldown on the heat mater and removed material I haven’t seen any study but that is according to my experience and it might not be correct.
All the best
Saleh from Iran
Good show Ron , I wish you would review the 6x45 , a great little varmit cartridge ! Thanks !……
Best informative channel
Thank you sir.
I’ve often wondered if engineers have toyed with smooth bore, fin stabilized bullets with the main advantage being reduced friction resulting in higher muzzle velocity.
M1 abrams shoots a smooth bore fin stabilized projectile out its main gun at 5500 ft/sec !!!
This’ll make you think. My thoughts are more on size and cost. Probably take a larger diameter bullet like a .338 for it to work well. Find would have to be a certain thickness to be strong enough. And cost. More than likely These round would be very expensive and most people wouldn’t buy it and enjoy shooting it
My thanks to Silas! new subscriber , don't want to miss anything!
I like the savage M99 in 300 savage and it works good.
I used to own a vintage 1890 german target rifle The barrel had a tapered bore, progressive gain twist rifling, and was full length fluted. So much for thinking the latest thing is a recent innovation
Tried the Hornaday soft tip in my brother's 94 winchester worked great that Ole gun hit where you pointed it at
Excellent 👍
I love shooting. 30 cal 30-30 150 rnd nose in my .308 at top speed. Superb woods deer performance 👌
Rigidity and cooling for sure. Also a second kind of cool, it looks cool and I like it leave me alone haha
Fair enough!
Many thanks, Mr. Spomer, for spending the time addressing great topics and sharing facts and your opinions. I look at fluting as removing some material where it isn’t absolutely necessary so as to maintain ORIGINAL RIGIDITY. Benefits are somewhat lighter weight and somewhat quicker cooling. Whether one needs/wants those benefits imo just boils down to personal taste if even just for a particular rifle. I’m glad for the option but would I utilize it more often than not? No. I enjoyed the comparison of 6 ARC vs 6.5 Grendel. I would like to see/hear/read more on the ARC. Very interesting cartridge for the AR platform. Thanks again for all that you do. And it was good to see Covey sneak a little ways into the video!
Yeah, I felt Covey sneaking in there and decided to ignore her in the hopes her head wouldn't appear. Oh well, adds visual interest, eh? So you're saying flutes shave weight without compromising initial rigidity. That sounds reasonable. As for the 6mm ARC, I covered it a bit in recent video: ua-cam.com/video/XYVgzrGwmJc/v-deo.html. Also an older blog on it from the perspective of a traditional bolt-action rifle shooter/hunter at www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/hornady-6mm-arc-joins-race-to-the-bottom.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast thank you for sharing the links. That’ll be my entertainment while I enjoy Italian tonight!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast where'd you get that buck knick-knack that sits on your desk
Good job. Always enjoy a chance to get the benefit of your years of wisdom. I wonder if you could do a video of all the calibers that would be sufficient for deer inside say 300 yds? Like a "it doesn't make any difference inside 300." Just put everything on the table in front of you and say pick your poison. Hunt the one you love the most because the deer....
Thompson Contender owners have been loading spire point boatail .308 bullets for a long time with excellent performace. I love my 30/30 Contender but wish it had the muzzle brake like my 45/70 Contender...the 30/30 actually has more felt recoil than the 45/70.
How am I just finding this...subscribed!
Thanks Mountain view
Fluted Barrels: if you take a heavy profile barrel, flute it to make it almost as light weight as a pencil barrel, sure the fluted barrel is stronger because is maintains a wider diameter. Fluting cools faster, also preserving rigidity.
Hello Ron. Love your videos. I just watched your season 2 Episode 2 Podcast: Fluted Barrels and Boat Tail Bullets, in which one of your questions came in on the 300 PRC and it let you back to your video comparing the PRC to the 300 Win Mag. To which I loved that one too as I prefer the Win Mag over the over hyped PRC. I just want to touch on the 300 Win Mag a little more. As you clearly know, the chamber variances between the PRC and Win Mag are somewhat different, But with that being said, and this is my own personal preference, the 300 Win Mag standard chamber can indeed handle the long bullets such as the Hornady 225 ELDM simply (as you stated) by seating them out longer. Both mine and my son’s rifles, both Savages are shooting them at a COAL of 3.660” or 2.880” CBTO length. With a .015” leade to the lands… And as you know, I’m sure, by doing this you also increase the Win Mag powder capacity. (To a degree) My son’s rifle prefers Retumbo powder and mine prefers H1000. Both loads net much better than “standard velocities” @ over 2900 fps with the aforementioned ELDM bullets. My rifle however has a 1:12 twist barrel. Not sure why, but it surely does. LOL yet with the increased velocity it does indeed stabilize the heavy bullets enough to net a 3.5” 5-shot group at 400 yds. As I stated, this is my preference for how we use our 300 Win Mags and it’s no problem hunting with them as there is plenty of room for a single round under the closed bolt and another in the tube when necessary…
NOTE: The loads are very safe in our rifles and net several reloads on the same brass and easy functioning of the rifles…
Please feel free to share this if the conversation arises again and I’m certain it will at some point. Because as shooters, no debate is safe…
Best of luck and keep up the great work…
Doug
Helena, Montana
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Doug, and best of luck to you and your son.
I hate to sound like an old fuddy-duddy but I think round nose and flat point bullets are just fine for tube magazine rifles. I’m not opposed to Flex Tips or anything else that can increase advantage. ~12 years ago I had that Flex Tip bug in 30 and 35 cal. I found that they aren’t truly necessary. For me anyway. For the type of hunting I use a lever action for I was still using it inside 200yrds(my self imposed limit…with flat points[125 to MAYBE 150 with revolver caliber levers]). So now I’m back to Hornady 150 RNs in 30-30. I express again I have no aversion to innovation. But sometimes I think we get carried away with minute stretching of things. I know that I’m considerably better off if knowing I may run into a 300 yard shot that I’ll be taking the 270 or 30-06. Btw a downside to all this FlexTip flocking is Hornady’s discontinuance in some cases of the fine RNs and FNs that “weren’t selling”. I found that the originals are better performers on tougher game inside their design envelope
You don't fuddy duddy to me, Robert. Use what works for you. I agree that instead of stretching a 30-30 lever-action to behave like a bolt-action 308 Win., use it within its limitations and enjoy the hunt.
In regards to the 6mm ARC vs 6.5mm Grendel, they're going to be very similar in performance just the Grendel will have better energy closer and somewhere between 250y and 300y the ARC will take the lead energy wise. Whether it's enough of a difference of energy to be noticeable is probably down to shot placement
Great subject. Fluted barrels are a form-over-function aspect. No appreciable performance is gained with having a fluted barrel, they just look good (to a lot of people). There are a ton of discussions about it on the internet
I had someone claim my round barrel was inferior on a Thompson stainless Greyhawk vs the hex barrel on the steel Hawken . You can't shoot it fast enough to make any difference. Stainless does take far more heat than steel also. 😎
A little wisdom. If you are heating up the barrel on a hunting rifle, then you are doing something wrong! Or really right. If you want a more rigid barrel then go with 16 inch. The longer, the more wobbly.
IIRC after WW1 the US Army discovered the 150 gr 30/06 bullets didn’t travel as far as expected. The expectation being that fired from machine guns would be effective out past 2000 yds. The solution being a heavier boat tail bullet to increase effective range
Yes, Robt., they went to a 170-gr. boat tail spire point, didn't they.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast …. I’ve read that in the past. In WW2 the army went back to 150 grain. Supposedly the M1 Garand operated more reliably.
Savage made lever action and bolt action 30-30s. Spitzers boat tails are fine in them. A friend also has a model 54 Winchester bolt action in 30-30. So there are some options to improve 30-30 performance.
Good point, most of us forget about the bolt action 30-30s....you could probably hot rod those a great deal more depending on how well the action is designed.
Advantage of a fluted barrel is best understood when comparing it to a non-fluted barrel of the same weight. The fluted barrel will have a strength advantage, because to maintain the same weight, the fluted barrel will have a greater outer diameter. The fluted barrel will also heat up at the same rate as the non-fluted barrel, because they have the same mass, however, the fluted barrel will dissipate heat faster because it has more surface area in contact with the air. Disadvantage of a fluted barrel is that when you remove material from an already formed barrel, you may cause more heat related point of impact shift. A round barrel will heat up more uniformly and cause less point of impact shift when the barrel gets hot.
The 300 PRC design in the chambers is a good move to tighten it up to just barely over .308. I ordered a rifle last year in 300prc mainly for hunting. Didn’t have a 30 cal magnum yet so I decided to go with the newer technology vs the older win mag. But the factory test target shot .223” 3 shot group with factory Hornady Precision Hunter 212 eldx rounds. Something to look at and consider there.
Better factory accuracy seems to be the legacy of rifles and ammo in recent years.. That and faster twists to stabilize longer, higher B.C. bullets.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast I agree. With most companies now guaranteeing at least 1 moa or even better accuracy. And with the quality of ammo now they have really shrunk the window for what a hand loader can improve upon.
flex tip or flat point,30 30 has small powder charge or room for powder, stick to flat base, no gain with boat tails.
Anybody heard of a fuller on a sword? It lightens&strengthens the blade.Same difference.
maybe if the barrel starts off oversized, then is fluted, possibly get the cooling benefit, but that would add a little weight. heavy guns don't bother me to carry, its holding them up for off hand shots that gets me sometimes.
The world record for 200-yard benchrest for several years back in the 1970s that believe was Russell Hope who had a barrel made in 3030 out of a 30 caliber light machine gun barrel and how to mounted onto a bolt-action. And it held the record for quite some time. I believe that he was using the 168 grain Speer hollow point boat tail.
I think if your brass is concentric the expansion of the brass before there is enough pressure to move the bullet will center the bullet with the bore. Maybe?
So a higher velocity rifle say 22/250 2506 220swift 204 7rum etc
A heavier fluted barrel would give you some advantage for repeat fire shooting due to added cooling from greater surface area. Hence creating less barrel wear?
I think you might find that a fluted barrel has a larger outside diameter than a standard barrel, but weights slightly less. It might be stronger in this sense.
Thanks Ron, On fluted barrels. I haven't seen any top f-class shooters using fluted barrels. I guess some do, but the top shooters I've seen don't. I'm sure they would if there was an advantage to it..
I personally believe they flute barrels just for looks but they say it gives all these other benefits just so they can sell them for more money
It doesn't really makes sense for target shooters to use fluted barrels, because the primary purpose of fluting is weight savings so it's more for hunters than target shooters (so you'll probably never see it in competition except for amateurs using their hunting rifle).
For target shooting the heavier the barrel the better, as the weight helps absorb recoil. This is also why you never see carbon fibre barrels in high end of ELDR, even when Proof remains one of the more popular barrel providers.
Every fluted barrel I've ever owned was much heavier than any tapered barrel I've owned. The barrel must maintain a certain thickness to handle pressures from inside so fluted barrels have to be thicker where the ridges are between each flute causing more weight. As to cooling there is more surface area in contact with atmosphere but the greater mass of the barrel may negate it.
I wouldn't say that strength is the correct term but instead, depending on flute pattern you could potentially stiffen the barrel
Thicker barrel or heavier barrel when fluted is a trade off for weight. Is a thicker or heavier more accurate? I’ve seen rifles with flutes everywhere including the bolt.
I'm convinced the flutes in my Barrett M82A1 improve reliability, not necessarily performance. The reason is the barrel is part of the reciprocating mass so having slightly less of it on a very thick 29" barrel certainly will help with cycling. Other than that, it looks darn cool.
My Savage in .375 Ruger benefits by weight reduction as well. The flutes take a good chunk of the weight off the furthest end of the barrel where that weight matters most but leaves all the mass at the rear 1/3. And it also looks darn cool.
Thanks for weighting in, Brendan. I'm not sure how less weight in the recoiling Barrett barrel helps with cycling. I thought it was just to reduce weight and accelerate cooling. I would imagine Barrett engineers factored barrel weight against spring tension, bolt mass, etc. to fine tune action timing for reliable performance, but maybe I'm missing something. Perhaps you can provide additional details to straighten me out. As for your fluted Savage, how do you perceive less weight nearer the muzzle as mattering most? Total carry weight remains regardless where you remove an ounce or two, but lightening the muzzle, in my experience, increases muzzle movement, making it more difficult to "hang" on target. This theory is why most competitive shotgunners like/want a slightly muzzle heavy gun, and I've found it helps with rifles, too, but maybe I'm missing something. Interested in your discoveries. Thanks Brendan, and enjoy your shooting!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast What a well thought out reply. I hadn't considered that simply changing spring tension could help with increased barrel mass, though I imagine from an engineering perspective you're closer to being on target than my theory.
As for my Savage, it already has a very thick barrel, being of .375 caliber and is naturally muzzle heavy. I personally appreciate a couple ounces less way out front in this case. I'd appreciate it even more if that mass were put back into the butt of the stock to help balance things out a little.
@@jumboMIDGET You might consider adding a bit of lead fishing sinkers to your butt or even in the barrel channel to balance weight.
I never had any feeding issues or accuracy issues with my first Centerfire rifle which was a belted Magnum 7 mil mag in a 1979 Ruger Model 77. After sighting it in with 9 rounds I fired a 20 round group into a hole that was .049" Center to Center spread
That's incredible precision, both from you, the rifle, and the ammo. I've never shot that well in my life. Congrats.
My thoughts on a fluted barrel...because of less material, would not there be more barrel "whip"? I would think that there would be alot of flex of the barrel and perhaps affect accuracy. Thank you for the video, very informative.
My research has uncovered opposite opinions on fluting from barrel manufacturers, but the majority contend it can/does stiffen barrels IF final weight is equal. In other words, you start with a wider diameter barrel, flute it to equal the weight of an unfluted barrel of the same length/caliber, and the fluted one would be more rigid. Some barrel makers say fluting introduces stress into the steel, others say just the opposite. Crazy, huh?
Fluting causes stress points that will matter if the shooting habit is great heat, cooling, and heating. This is a common problem in heat treating tool steel. In this case, it is good to know what alloy of steel was used to make the barrel. The radius of the top of the flute should be anything but sharp.
I think that the angles of the fluted surface can make the barrel more rigid, there by changing the flex of the barrel when fired.
A fluted barrel would only be stronger if they increased the diameter by keeping the weight about the same as a smaller diameter solid barrel. Kind of like an engineered I beam. The strength would come from the increase in diameter that could be achieved by fluting as to not increase weight. But I am not sure if they are increasing the diameter or not when they flute.
Depending on the specific fluting there must be a way to change barrel harmonics to increase consistency. I don’t think anyone has yet but MAYBE.
Browning-Winchester did this back in 01 November 1993, with their BOSS (Ballistic Optimizing Shooting System), and the Ruger Mini 14 with the barrel harmonic dampener back in 2007 on their Target Models
Heat transfer surface area. Also other things like surface area and load dissipation.
Done properly the flutted barrel is stronger per the same Weight while cooling said barrel faster and heating up at about the same rate as before. Internal surface area remains the same. And heat transfer rates are the same. Only difference is soak capacity which we generally don't like to heat soak barrels to the max anyways. They can get red hot with some rounds. And we've seen that in military service.
However a barrel has to be constructed this way from the get go. Adding it to an existing barrel likely will make the barrel weaker. Might be different for a hex barrel but unlikely.
Done properly you can also control balance of the barrel to help balance a gun better. Plus control stiffness of the barrel and other stuff. They can also end up slightly heavier then the standard barrel options but much stronger and all the other benefits, and for equivalent characteristics you'd need a heavy barrel set up that ends up alot more then a standard or fluted barrel. Heavy barrel would be strong but none of the other characteristics.
Spiral fluting by ER Shaw does increase strength and stiffness. It works like ribbing rolled into sheet metal to strengthen it. Not true of all fluting. Shaw has a patent on it.
Good to know. I've long been impressed with Shaw barrels.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast check the 8.6 BLK
12" barrel, 1in3 twist. Barnes 210 grain subsonic.
If you use a bolt action 30-30 you can use pointed bullets. The 30-30 case is thin so loading much higher pressures isn't recommended. I was never able to gain much unless I went to much lighter bullets.
Same as any material, the grooves are like a flat piece of construction metal. A flat piece you can bend it back and forth easily. But, if you press a groove into it. It is rigid now and will not flex. Or you can take it and bend up both sides to form a 3 sided square "U". It will not flex then. Angle metal only has one side bent for an L. So a fluted barrel wasn't meant to be stronger. But to flex less keeping the bullet on a straighter path until it exits. Pluss cooling, Surface Area.
Great content. Curious to see how far you take this. Any plans on having guests?
Thanks Bluto. Yes, guests coming soon.
Ron how about the 360 Buck Hammer? Lever action Single shot pump bolt action . Being a rimmed casing will it have problems working in a Bolt action due to the case length ,?
The SAUER FIELDSHOOT is a model 100 variant not 1000. It's set up more for long range - tactical use with Adjustable cheek piece and other things that make it for suitable for those purposes.
What's the possibility of retrofitting a Remington feed tube onto a Winchester lever action or even a Marlin lever action 30-30 that keeps the point of the bullet from actually touching the primer of the previous round? Remington did make fluted tubular magazines that offset Spire point bullets from the previous primer.
I'm not sure, but seems a good question worth trying. I don't see why a spiraled magazine tube couldn't be adapted to an M94 or 336. Anyone tried it?
Great segment.. But because you asked, the 6mm ARC bullet velocities are a couple hundred fps faster than the 6.5 grendel. Faster with better bc keeps the 6 ARC bullet velocities above 2,200 fps out to 300 yards while the grendel, like the .223, drops below 2,200 fps at around 200 yards. Below 2,200 fps is where these small caliber bullets begin to loose their hydrostatic shock effect on live tissue. For these small calibers, hydrostatic shock is a critical component for quick kills on game.
Thanks for the additional info, Richard.
Sauer Field shoot from what I've seen in some video reviews is extremely precise,accurate bench rifle, I believe the great precision and accuracy is mostly due to the fact that the barrel is permanently heat sealed to the action. I sure would hate to toss its beautiful stock after barrel loses accuracy . But not aware of what Sauer and Sohns rwccomendation is to do when Field shoot is shot out.?
Troy, IJ'm pretty sure they heat the front receiver ring to remove and replace the barrel. What this does to the finish I do not know.
Ever heard of a tuning fork? Each one is a certain size and produces a corresponding sound. The same harmonics that work for smooth barrels isn't the same after removing metal from the barrel. How much is needed or the type of fluting for a certain barrel is right up there with VooDoo magic ✨✨ or 2 cycle pipe building!!🤣😂🤔🤪😜
Theoretically, flutes increase the surface area of a rifle barrel. Heat dissipation is enhanced. As far as strengthening a barrel, the geometry says it should, but a bend test of one in the same barrels fluted & unfluted would verify. Harmonic vibrations would be another consideration that could have a bearing on accuracy. Now cosmetics is a whole different story. I do not know of any consistent one hole groups from fluted bbls. Unfluted , yep!
So what about a 150gr or 160gr boat tail polymer tip bullets it the 30-30 would the polymer tip hold up to the jarring in the tube magazine
Triple, polymer tips were invented to minimize tip damage while recoil battering in vertical stack magazines. In Tubular magazines I suspect a sharp polymer tip would dent or possibly detonate the primer of the round atop it, which is why factory ammo for tubular magazine rifles/cartridges like 30-30 Win. are not built with sharp-tipped bullets.
So Hornady has a polymer tipped bullets designed for the 30-30 and 307 Winchester I could be wrong but I believe it’s called the ftx-bullet?
My understanding of fluted barrels is you shed weight, it cools faster, and you don't lose any of the rigidity you have with a nonfluted barrel... I own rifles with fluted barrels it does seem to cool faster, it's definitely lighter, but I've never been able to confirm rigidity and outside of owning a good high speed camera to be able to see how much barrel whip you have compared to a nonfluted barrel I don't know how to check that... Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
The barrel whip that you would want to reduce is at the instant that the bullet leaves the muzzle. At that point it can’t even be seen. The barrel whip visible on a high speed camera is inconsequential. So the added mass of a bull barrel or the engineered stiffness of a fluted barrel has a dampening effect on the harmonics curve compared to a regular barrel.
Daniel ... if you take a barrel and then flute it, it will absolutely lose rigidity and increase harmonics. When you say "shed weight, or "don't lose any rigidity," you are looking at it the wrong way. The design of a proper fluted barrel is not the after thought of a barrel that already exists. The initial parameter of a fluted barrel is the same required rigidity and harmonic dampening as the round barrel except with improved heat dissipation in a design that moves the mass/weight of the round cross section design to increase accuracy over multiple frequent shots. You could think of it as taking a round cross section barrel and removing X amount of material in select areas from it, to a point where it won't explode on you. Then you add back that material to where you didn't remove it. You INCREASE its radius in those areas. You do not have to add back as much as you removed to achieve the original spec. In every case, the effective diameter will INCREASE. So if you took a string and wrapped it around the new design, the string would be longer than it was wrapped around the round barrel. Its strength increases exponentially as the radius increases where you add diameter so you can reduce the diameter in other areas. You can make it radially thinner in more cross section area than the cross sectional area where you have to make it thicker to achieve the same specs.
So in that aspect, you can't take a round barrel and shed weight and improve or maintain rigidity. You are building an entirely different barrel. You have to start from a larger blank and then make a Fluted barrel by design. By design, you start with a larger diameter blank and then subtract from that until it would be lighter than a smaller diameter barrel. More often, the barrels weigh the same with increased performance because of recoil considerations and balance. For a combat or target competition gun, it is all about the cooling to have sustained accuracy. For hunting, Ron pretty much sums up my opinion.
@@sneakinguponit You could use a laser and prism and see the change in color ... it not as complicated as you'd think. A load transducer to a speaker and you could hear it at the same time if you slow the playback the same as you slow back the high speed camera. Recorded it on an oscilloscope ... there are several ways ... none of then cheap :o) Most would just use a computer model though ... and then test it empirically to justify the theory. It's actually been settled by both agreeing with each other.
Dimpled barrels work best BTW. They have the most destructive interference of harmonics and localize the heat to where the design is most efficient to transfer the heat to the environment. The higher the delta in temp the better the transfer rate. A dome is structurally superior for distributing stress to the strongest part of the barrel (no constant angles). It's a win win win situation because dimpling is also highly uniform cross-sectional. I don't know your understanding of physics but each dimple acts sort of like a speaker and sends out NRG like a speaker, essentially ... if that helps yall understanding.
You might be interested in this article ... it's about a 15 minute read. www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm ... it's about Optimal barrel time (OBT) and modeling harmonics.
@@ejrupp9555 That’s a interesting article. I’m not sure I haven’t read it before as I’ve researched about barrel harmonics and load development. It is very interesting in the suggestion that harmonics disrupt the burn rate and change barrel time rather than affecting muzzle position. What was really interesting was QuickLoads purported ability to predict accurate loads based on barrel time. It seems the author makes some claims that go unsubstantiated but it was probably just over my head.
I think any reasonable/practical measures that can be taken to disrupt barrel harmonics are worth the effort. Just depends on the intent/use of the firearm. A simple muzzle device can have a positive effect as well as pillar bedding, free floating the barrel, etc. I haven’t looked into dimpled barrels but if the cost is comparable or better than a fluted or bull barrel then it certainly worth looking at.
@@sneakinguponit If you are ok with the weight ... a bull barrel is probably the best bang for the buck. Improvements from there are noticed only at the fridge ... where ones ability and environmental conditions are the largest error input and the standard of deviation of the improvement is lost within that error ... just my opinion. The best is not always cost appropriate or needed for the desired outcome. Kind'a like the saying ... do you really need a Ferrari in a school zone. But sometimes it's just for looks ya know.
A question about an old cartridge/caliber and the rifles made for the .25-20?
What's the question, Tony? The round was released around 1895 in the M92 Winchester lever action, later chambered in many other levers, pumps, and even some bolt-actions. It is a weak round putting out well under 1,000 f-p muzzle energy, flat nosed 60-gr. bullets starting about 2,200 fps and losing velocity quickly due to low B.C. It's reportedly hard on meat inside of 50 yards (small game,) yet too weak for good use on deer. I think it is used to good effect in Cowboy Action Shooting. The short bolt/lever throw of the M92 rifle makes this an appealing plinker.
I feel the 308 popularity has picked up speed over the 30/06 because with this current ammo situation that doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. The shelves are abound with cheap .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 ammo. All other rifle calibers when you can find them are only expensive ammo.
I have found it to be the opposite in my particular location. I have found the 30-06 ammo to be more available and 308 not so much. Regardless both are great cartridges and will likely continue to be around for a long time....
Fluting puts more surface molecules under tension resulting in greater rigidity. Mechanical engineering 101 also helps dissipate heat
the heavy barrel of most muzzleloaders seems to give accuracy and dont get hot easily...
My 336 30 30 will group 3 inches at 200 yards with Hornady 160 grain FTX
I can't think of any good reason for a fluted barrel. I have a couple and the idea that you can shave weight is what I always heard. My rifles however are fluted because the barrel is heavier to begin with and shaving some weight without weakening the barrel might be the answer. If the barrels were both of a standard form they would be thinner and weight less even without the flutes.
Fllutting cools the barrel at different rates..
The 30-30 can hold 2 rounds in the tube safely and that’s all you’d need
You can have a shorter barrel with supressor when choosing 308w.
The benefit is that it is lighter, and it is stiffer than a thin Barrel. It is at least going to be stiffer than a barrel which diameter is the lowest point of the flutes. But it will be no stronger that a barrel that is that thin.
I saw a man one time with a 338 Lapua Magnum with a fluted barrel decide that he was going to fire five rounds out of that bolt action in relatively short order. Needless to say it didn't make it past round number 4.
There is an advantage to putting flutes in a barrel. Tends to make the barrel stiffer and changes its harmonics period that can have quite an effect on accuracy, and it allows you to put a barrel that acts heavier than one that you may have already had on the firearm. And you can shave a whole lot more than just a few ounces off of it.
Thanks for your contributions to the discussion, Hawk.
A 2 inch diameter round bar will bend before a 2 inch diameter round bar having a 5/8 hole bored though its length. fluting should do the same thing.
Ron your producer hosed you! Asking you to do a cartridge comparison without ballistic charts? I had to check them myself but when I did, the ARC is flatter and carried more energy out to 300 yards with the compared loads.
I wondered about that right after I said it, Wesley, but knew at least one of my listeners would straighten things out. Thanks for being that guy! I should have know that a narrower, higher B.C. bullet from a case with nearly identical powder capacity would shoot flatter and retain more energy downrange with similar weight bullets.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast that’s what I was thinking in my head but I had to check. They were pretty close. It wasn’t fair for you to have to go in with no data! Tell your producer to give you some charts with your questions next time if he’s putting you in the hot seat! We all love your ballistic chart vids!
Removing material from a barrel can improve strength and rigidity. Just think of the isometric removal of metal form the interior of a ULA rocket skin?
Zand, I've gotta confess I'm not too familiar with the removal of metal from ULA rocket skin!
Random question I got a 270 Browning A-bolt. Got a box of sako 156 gr hammerhead. They will stabilize fine right. 22 inch barrel. Not sure the twist rate
Would love to know twist rate. I think I heard Browning was building some 1:9 or 1:8 twist 270 Win barrels. I don't know length of the Hammerhead 156-gr. but it might be short enough to stabilize in 1:10, too.
Figure out which exact model you have. "A bolt stalker composite" AB3 stalker composite, ab3 hunter
A bolt medallion. Then Google your rifles specs in the search bar and browning website will be in the results and you'll find what twist it has there. If you tell me the model I'll tell you the twist rate within 5-10 mins
@@VG-913 it's a A- bolt 3 composite stalker "22 barrel
@@liambeatty3080 it's it's 1:10 twist never know tho might Like them
Great gun tho. When you find a good loading you'll be impressed. I have an original A bolt stalker composite with the BOSS thing shoots just about every weight bullet into 1/2" or better 5 shot groups. I just picked up an AB3 Hunter in 30-06. Saturday.
Hey Ron! What do you think about a savage high country vs a Tikka t3X veil?
Both are strong, dependable, usually impressivley accurate shooters, but the Tikka weighs 1.5 pounds less. I'd choose that for ease of carry/use. But I do not consider its 6.5 pounds as all that light for mountain hunting.
Have both and they both shoot really goog with a load they like. But I wouldn't want to carry the Savage very far at this point in life.
hello Tim.
Fluting doesn’t improve stiffness it maintains stiffness while reduces weight
If you want a high performance lever action get one with a stack magazine chambered in 308
Are you planning on being on the stitcher podcast app?
Perhaps a fluted barrel reduces barrel harmonics.
It does change them the stiffer (and engineering and physics wise it is) barrel has smeller vibrations
A fluted barrel is stronger than a cylindrical barrel of the same cross sectional area ie the same weight. Yes the fluting removes material and thus reduces strength but you need to compare the fluted barrel to a cylindrical barrel of the same weight... So in summary fluted barrels have a higher strength to weight ratio... plus more surface area for cooling. The real downside of fluted barrels is the high cost.
Ok by now I'm going to be perceived as being a pest. I actually have some experience with 30-30 Winchester and pointed soft point bullets. Now just to remind you that I love to se out my bullets out to within. 020 of my lands. There is no boltaction available that allows the magazine space to allow for these lengths. That being said I did my testing on a NEF handi rifle single shot. So I came up with a load again with vhitivori N540 and 150gr nosler partition. I got to a average velocity 2504 fps and stopped. Not because I seen pressure signs, but did get concerned that I would never see pressure signs and accuracy was amaculate. 5 shot groups clover leafed. A couple of points here
1. This loads has not been the best hunting combo as at distances over 150 bullet preferences was poor 9n game, though successful on pronghorn, whitetail, and a mule deer. Nothing to write home about.
2. I really wanted to load this with either nosler ballistic tips, serra game king boattail, or something similar. I could not with my load style, as the throated out boattail did not have enough support in the case neck. Could have seated the bullet deeper, however this have defeated the purpose of utilizing the freebore to add case capacity.
I have considered Ackley improving this rifle, other than it would be fun and interesting it's hard to justify based needs.
Steven, I understand how you enjoy experimenting with your cartridges and handloads, even though you realize there are much easier ways to gain performance without the limitations you're encountering. Many folks would say "What's the point? Just rechamber to 308 Win or something!" But I get it. You're having fun. More power to you! Enjoy.
The reason the military went to the 308 is because with the more modern I am are powders and powders that were becoming available in the late 1950s and early 1960s. There was no discernible difference in the 2900 feet-per-second that the same bullet comes out of a 308 as the 2,900 ft per second that it comes out of a thirty-ought-six and I've seen several cartridges in 308 that shoot that round at 2900 feet per second. The other problem is is that the vast majority of 30 ought 6 cartridges were shooting at about 2750 to 2800 which is exactly where the 308 shoots
I believe the main reason they went to the 308 was weight savings, Hawk. The fact that they switched to the 5.56x45mm in 1964 showed further shrinking. Once they established parameters for downrange performance (impact velocity and ability to penetrate helmet, plus remaining super sonic, I've read) all they needed was minimal cartridge/bullet to meet that. The 308 was significantly smaller than the 30-06, the 5.56 significantly smaller than the 308.
All my rifles are way too old for fluted barrels. Think my newest high powered rifle is a 1958.