PAYDAY 2's Stealth is Outstanding
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- Half an eternity has passed, but the Payday 2 review is here. Was it worth it? No, no it wasn't.
Thanks to downgraphics for the thumbnail and @Plutonia001 and @sappyjokergaming9392 for additional clips.
0:00 Intro to Payday
3:46 Getting detected and detecting enemies
6:07 Resources
9:15 Randomization
10:52 Crowd control
13:10 Bad stuff and how to deal with it
16:47 Conclusion
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Twitter: / thekotti - Ігри
It can be extremely bad in multiplayer due to desync, but when it works it's great
That's more because it's peer-to-peer sync than client-server
But then again, what option is there for a coop based multiplayer game where it's better suited for player-hosted lobbies?
@@wedoalittletrolling723 also it means that as long as there's players, the game will always be online, they'll never have a server shutdown moment
@@Helios2737 i hope payday 3 continues to use peer-to-peer then, because server shutdown would suck if i have to play with host with shitty connection
It's also bad in multiplayer just due to how the chance of someone getting spotted or the alarm going off for whatever reason exponentially increases per player
As a loud player, I have been defending stealth design of this game for years and your original video is something that mirrors my feelings. I hope they expand this system with more options on payday 3 then replacing it with something else.
A fitting arcadey stealth for a fun arcadey game. I would love to see that pager mechanic in more games. Would fit Hitman since guards tend to call command before investigating something.
You should see Entry Point, basically combines aspects from Hitman and Payday.
Guards will radio in when investigating things like cameras, searching target (Ryan)
no being limited to killing limited amounts of guards is just horrible it needs a better pager system
Love the video! One small correction at 2:45 however: the guards do not in fact walk around randomly. They have set way points, and with trip mines in sensor mode you can maintain a nearly permanent uptime on them being marked if you place the mines accordingly. It's one of the most useful tools in stealth besides advanced ECM rushing with a four man crew.
As others have pointed out, I really hope you take a look at Hostile Takeover. It's a direction I hope they head in with Payday 3 as well and just have a checklist of objectives and let you tackle them in any order, or have it so that certain objectives make others easier as they're completed. It's a really nice change of pace instead of do A, then B, then C, then escape.
They are random in the sense that the next waypoint they go to is random.
Great video. As janky as it is, payday 2's stealth deserves more love and recognition.
One thing I'd like to mention about how detection works is that NPCs can only detect heads. This applies to both players and dead or handcuffed NPCs. If you can get a handcuffed NPC to clip its head thru a wall or if you manage to obcure a ragdoll's head, it's fully invisible to guards and civilians.
Thanks. And yeah, there is a bunch of mechanical stuff like hiding heads in walls that you can do. For example I deliberately didn't include any clips of courch jumping becuase it feels a bit like cheating.
@@TheKotti how is it cheating?
Literally not what I said.
It's ridiculously unrealistic but it's so very functional. If it wasn't for the lack of ways to pull guards away from their paths or dislodging them from the spot they stopped their path on it would be an excellent stealth game.
I appreciated payday 2 stealth since you recommended the game years ago in a similar video.
This review is a crystal clear explanation of why.
Also: the various game analysis you publish are really spot on, keep it up!
Not gonna lie, man, I really dig your edited/analysis content! I really enjoy how in-depth you get into mechanics, I would love to hear more from you!
I may only have a few hundred hours on Payday 2 but its' stealth is subpar at best.
Ruthlessly punishing, no margin for error, honestly not having that much going for it in the first place.
If you want to succeed in stealth, even on lower difficulties, you don't have much space to mess around, doesn't matter if it is loadout, movement, or dispatching enemies.
I'd say the bigger problem is that Overkill doesn't know how to design maps around stealth. Many maps in the game, with few exceptions (like hoxton revenge, framing frame, and maybe breakin feds), are designed with not many places to hide, very open areas, or areas with huge guard populations that can see you miles away, like the train heist. Overkill needs to design payday 3's maps around stealth better.
I have way less than a few hundred hours in as after solo stealthing everything I felt like I had finished the game and didn't feel the need to go on a thousand hour grind. The game definitely gives you margin for error but also expects you to fail and restart and doesn't allow you to come back from any situation like most stealth games. I may have made a mistake avoiding the word "hardcore" in the video because it felt mad to call Payday's stealth hardcore but that's what it is.
I'm not sure I 100% agree with your placemenet of The Diamond and Car Shop as simple stealth heists for new players.
Sure, their layout and overall objectives are simple enough. But The Diamond also features a unique mechanic that isn't present anywhere else and Car Shop features one of the only heists in the game that has a dedicated driving sequence. Making map decently rough around the edges for new players.
They have their gimmicks, but outside of those they are some of the simpler ones and no amount of practice in other missions is going to make a difference in the gimmicks, hence why I think they may as well be done early on.
As a PAYDAY veteran with over 1000 hours on the first and second game combined, I gotta say, I love the concept of stealth, but I've grown to hate it over the years, mostly because of technical issues with the game and continuous neglect of this game mode from the side of the developers.
Stealth is almost exactly the same as it was 10 years ago and IMO it hasn't aged well, because it still massively discourages teamwork (in a CO-OP game). When you're stealthing, solo is really the only viable option, unless you have a VERY competent partner, which are harder to find by the day.
More players on the ground just equal to more chances of getting spotted and things going south. When going loud from the start, this doesn't really matter, because when your newbie friend gets downed, you can just revive him, but when your newbie friend gets spotted during stealth and triggers the alarm, there's nothing you can do about it, you cannot "un-trigger" the alarm, all that's left is restarting the heist, which kinda sucks.
In short, PAYDAY 2 is in need of a big stealth overhaul, which probably isn't coming anytime soon ;(
One thing you forgot to mention is the Pre-Planning menu and how it can affect stealth in both good and bad ways.
Good:
It offers both replay-ability and less RNG in heists because you can choose what entrance/escape/equipment/etc. is added. Plus it makes you think about what your bringing since it costs favors and most heists have a 10 favor limit.
Bad:
80% of the time there is an objectively correct thing/set-up to use for a heist, and once you learn what it is it completely negates all the positives the preplanning menu. For example: on Big Bank the only escapes worth using are Elevator or Bus, Default and Sniper escapes are worthless due to how atrociously placed they are.
I didn't consider it worth mentioning as there are about 2 heists in total in which I use any pre-planning. It's a very small part of the game in the end, and only begins to matter a bit once you've gotten familiar with the heist and already know what you're doing.
Was that a fully armored guy with a loaded RPG-7? Nah....
Great video as always Kotti! Thank you so much for providing that mission recommendation list. I have tried and failed to get into this game three separate times because I have absolutely no clue what heists I should do and have very little interest in the loud stuff.
In addition to the failure of Overkills' The Walking Dead, the CEO of Starbreeze go busted for tax evasion. Therefore Overkill as an Studio of Starbreeze got also into trouble and the money flow got interrupted. Thats the additonal reason why they trying to milk the playerbase after 2017. Also Overkill also lied before with there promise to not sell MTX with Stats, which was also broken with the introduction of the Safes (copy of CSGO crates). These skins have some small stats on it, so you can push some weapons to certain thresholds like the minimum dectetion rate of 3.
And also like you said, the most recent DLCs after the broken promise are mostly filler and are also technical much worse. Most of them had for long periods or still have memory leak problems and other bugs, that are cleary indicators that only a skeleton crew is working on these DLCs. Which only solidifes that the new DLCs are just are quick cashgrab.
Have been meaning to play this for a long time now. Stealth is a genre I love and I think your video just convinced me to push it to the top of my to play list.
Honestly, I don't blame you for not liking the new DLCs but if you like, the latest one, Hostile Takeover is probably the most fun stealth heist to date IMO, since while it does have the general objectives, you can do them in any order.
"The stealth in payday 2 is outstanding"
The akimbo "silenced" smgs in my bulletstorm loadout:
Hey, great review! I've played payday 2 for around 1.2k hours (90% of which was spent in stealth), and I completely agree that it's an underrated game for stealth. While it is a bit hard to get into (not everyone enjoys restarting a heist on getting caught), once you do that there's quite a high skill ceiling. Mastering movement and heists to do them as quickly as possible without sacrificing consistency, adapting to all the randomness you may get (like loot spawns for instance), learning techniques like sprint jumping, ecm rushing, silent sawing, body launching - the list goes on. Once you put in the time and effort to learn these and make it consistent, you get immensely rewarded for it in exp rates that you can use to speed through infamy.
However, I have a couple issues with some of your points, though they're pretty minor:
- For the crowd control section, I feel like you're giving them a bit much credit - sure, if you're a new player who desperately needs money and they're playing overkill difficulty or something, yeah - babysitting hostages might be a good idea. However, in every other case, especially when you already have gotten a lot of cash from heisting, killing the hostages gives no penalty. The heist basically turns into 30 seconds of action, 6 minutes of babysitting a drill or moving the loot. Only heist that doesn't fall into this is GO Bank, as you actually need to babysit civilians, but it's made laughably easy with a loud gun such as a flamethrower or sawing the floor with a loud saw + stockholm syndrome skill.
- I also disagree with the "no skill variety" notion for stealth, even though that's a bit of a controversial take. I usually have multiple profiles (basically builds that you can switch between, I think at one point I had around 10) for stealth, as there are many things you can "specialize" in when it comes to stealth, some being more effective in certain situations than other options. You can definitely get away with having one generalist stealth build, but having more for specific situations or playstyles can definitely make it more fun. Here are some examples:
1. Hacker sniper build (the idea is to take silencer skills + maximize accuracy of your weapon + get high value target for marking guards by just aiming at them)
2. Hacker saw build (getting saw skills, berserker which increases saw damage and allows to one-tap most of the things with a saw, and getting low enough concealment so that you can actually play the game still)
3. Hacker tripwire build (getting high value target + tripwire skills which can help in heists with enclosed spaces, such as the art gallery. Prevents having "whoops" moments where you're crouch jumping into a guard that was just around the corner)
4. Yakuza build (molotovs + berserker + yakuza's speed boost for times where you just feel like being as speedy as you can, possibly for speedruns or whatever. Not a big fan myself, but a lot of people love running yakuza for stealth)
5. Crowd control build (stockholm syndrome + very loud weapon, although this can usually be integrated into a regular bread and butter build which in my case is the sniper one)
There's many, many more builds that you can do, such as crew chief spotter, bag-carrying specialist anarchist, meme builds like stealth rocket launcher for bank heist, list goes on.
However, besides these nitpicks, good video.
Thank you! I actually deliberately left out the techniques you mentioned as when I did my solo/stealth playthroughs I didn't know about them and after learning about them they felt a bit "cheap" so I still prefer the game without any major trickery.
As for the issues:
- In crowd control, I definitely like the concept more than I like the execution. But to me avoiding casualties isn't about the penalty, but much like cleaning the vault, about professional pride. It's more satisfying to be clean, and the gameplay is more compelling too.
- I really can't see those builds being meaningfully different enough. I think at around level 70 I hit the point where I have every skill I could possibly want, and a few that are so situational they might as well not be there. I can see some minor variety in swapping tools between body bags/ECMs/tripmines, but to even that doesn't make much of a difference as I don't like ECM rushing.
Another enjoyable video from you. I also liked Payday 2's stealth for the reasons you listed. Also was fun to play with a patient friend that helped pull all the loot out with me.
I have 100% in PD2 and I love the game. You nailed these points man. I really hope they manage to recreate these stealth mechanics in PD3 and them being so good wasn't just a lightning in a bottle.
As a 2k hour player who has seen... a lot of takes on PD2's stealth over the years, thank you so much! It feels like the majority of the playerbase greatly dislikes the game's stealth, which is very upsetting. A lot of the criticism typically boils down to "thing in videogame wouldn't work like that in real life!", which is just fundamentally flawed regardless of subject matter, meanwhile the gameplay implications are thrown out the window. PD2 may be built on an ancient engine with occasional jankiness, but those limitations led to the developers creating a system that, while not innovative, is certainly unique, with its own flair that can't really be found anywhere else.
Resource management and clarity are among the best of its characteristics, as you've said. "Keep it simple stupid" is rather apt here, since you know exactly where and how you can get spotted, no grey areas included, and it just... works. That simplicity is balanced out by randomisation, and having to constantly juggle objectives, resources, patrolling guards, as well as the game constantly demanding spatial/situational awareness. The skill system and the deployables (trip mines my beloved) help greatly with that, and the way they're seamlessly woven into the gameplay loop, sheesh. About "removing the stealth from the stealth game" - can you believe that some people run mods (well, one mod, really) that remove the pager mechanic altogether? The crux of the system, without which the player can just shoot everyone on the map with zero repercussions? It's mind-boggling to me.
Valid criticism regarding the difficulty/information as well. The game isn't really good at teaching the player much of anything, there's a lot of trial and error involved, which is exponentially more frustrating in public lobbies. The 120 available skill points also allow you to get literally everything you need, though I'd argue that there's still some heist-by-heist specialisation involved. A jack-of-all trades, a movement speed-oriented build with Yakuza & Frenzy, Frenzy & Berserker for the extra saw damage (comes really handy on Shadow Raid), a handful of stealth perks to choose from (although Hacker is a clear winner), those would be the first that come to mind. Calling it a sad swamp is a bit harsh, for it's not all gloom and limitation.
I know, 0:29 explicitly states that you're naturally not going to be privy to every little detail, but I still feel like addressing/adding to some of the points:
- The bodies in and of themselves add a lot to the gameplay, not mentioning them would be amiss! Even the simplest choices, like whether or not to use a body bag, another limited resource. Knowing the patrol routes allows the player to know whether a body can even be found (and thus whether it needs to be bagged), shotgun kills quickly move bodies out of sight, ragdolls can be moved around with shotguns/akimbo SMGs (or anything with a high fire rate and mag capacity). There's a lot of knowledge and planning that can go into just the kills alone.
- From Normal to Mayhem, the difficulty affects the following: amount of guards and cameras, indestructible Titan cameras being introduced, more complicated maps (some sections can be opened or closed off, laser grids are introduced on some heists), and most critically of all: more complex objectives... which is typically just an increase in the amount of bags that the player has to secure. Like how Shadow Raid changes the requirement from 3 bags to 12.
- The latest DLC heists have been mainly experimenting with non-linear objective structure, such as allowing the player to take different paths and generally complete the objectives in any desired order. Each heist also has a small gimmick attached to it, mostly related to how the objectives themselves are presented/approached - presumably that's the devs experimenting and seeing what sticks, to be possibly added into PD3's heists. But that's all just speculation with nothing to back it up.
- 11:23 Nah, sorry, that's just a combination of loud weapons and crowd control-related skills. It's certainly a testament to just how well the heisting fantasy works, though, if that's how it made you feel.
Once again, great video! This game's stealth could always use some more love.
Thank you! I'm glad this resonates with veterans, I haven't done _that_ much on top of a solo/stealth/DSOD playthrough so I was worried I might be way off in many ways. But to address your points.
- I understand that there can be some variety in builds, but it doesn't feel meaningful enough to me especially since I'm not a fan of ECM rushes. The customization system really is a sad swamp when the vast majority of things you can do are completely useless for stealth or so slightly different that it's more of a heist specific specialization than a different build.
- Bodies and body bags are certainly important, but I almost never felt the need to plan my actions around hiding bodies or worry about running out of body bags. Pagers however were always a major consideration.
- Granted, I'm not an expert on difficulties since I jumped to DS very early on, but things like Titan cameras didn't feel like a big change since broken cameras getting spotted was already a factor on lower difficulties. Shadow Raid bag count is maybe the biggest one I can think of outside of the amount of guards.
- The only post- Silk Road heist I've played is Black Cat which I agree had some less rigid objectives than the Silk Road ones, but as someone deep into Hitman I still struggle to see it as non-linear. Step in the right direction for sure.
- I thought it was a factor of the weapon's threat stat, which in the case of the buzz saw is one of the highest in the game? I could be wrong though, I've not done that much crowd control as the heists, as said, aren't that great.
@@TheKotti Regarding threat - it's very understandable, since it's a super confusing stat, which isn't explained... ever, I think. But it's specifically relevant in loud - the more "threatening" a weapon is, the more likely it is that enemies will try to jump out of the way/take cover when you're shooting it. Simple as.
I have been waiting for this review since you first mentioned it. It didn't disappoint
About looking threatening. From what I know the threat stat of weapons does nothing or something minimal like some people mentions - how likely it is for enemies to advance towards your position when under fire and wheither they will try to dodge your fire.
There are civilian suppression and enemy suppression mechanics but neigher relies on threat level. Civilian one comes from "Stockholm Syndrome" skill from Mastermind skill tree and the other from perk decks, "Disturbing the Peace" from Muscle and Copycat perk decks and "Showdown" from Sociopath perk deck.
Also about being detected and the meter - there is a detection risk meter in the menu that depends on your concealment stat of weapons and armour equipped. It's actually directly correlates with how detection in the heist works. I.e. if you have ~50 detection risk anytime you're getting detected the bar starts at that 50% mark. And the maximum detection risk of 75% is roughly correlates to the indicator being visibly filled to the top, giving you barely any marging of error.
Stealthing with pubs is the equivalent of shooting yourself with the strongest caliber gun you can find. It's all just a restart fest as people dont know what they are doing. Hence why I've given up and only play loud with pubs.
With friends or solo the stealth is fine.
As a Masochist I love playing with randoms.
In all seriousness though, randoms are obviously... Very random. Generally I don't mind people who don't know what to do, as long as they are cool with learning, just say outright, "I'm not used to this level, I'll follow your lead". It is maddening how many people refuse to communicate though.
I'm probably spoiled from playing Arma, where the overwhelming majority people use mics in public servers.
3:57 I hate that indicator, sometimes I don't even notice it.
I LOVE stealth in Payday, but being a coop heavy game, public lobbies are pain. Most of the time in more complex heists I have to tell the team to stay still in a corner while I run around doing the objectives. I would just play solo, but moving 15+ bags to the pickup on the other side of the map for ages by yourself is not fun.
1:32 Oooh I love being the spotter. I gotta find me a team to play this game like this with then.
Make sure someone else is hosting, the netcode issues don't matter to the spotter.
No Mercy is one of my favorites specifically because it is a loud mess with a possible stealth component. It comes from the first game where they had a stronger lean on "it will go loud eventually in the rare event you can stealth" with stealth simply being a way to get ahead faster or skip an annoying objective or two you're not fond of if you're good enough to do it. You don't really get to feel this magic often with Payday 2, but when it hits it feels really special. Builds being entirely singled out to stealth or loud due to it not being viable or optimal to make a hybrid one mostly killed this, but I have had a few occasions where I go in with a fully loud build that is crit specced (so my detection is low enough) and walked out with 90% of the heist stealthed before it goes loud since I was able to sneak that much of the heist.
Yeah, there being a mix does sound good. I think what spoils No Mercy for me is that I don't find the loud gameplay nearly as interesting. If it was more like a tactical shooter and less like Left 4 Dead I might be more on board with it.
@@TheKotti Fair enough perspective. As changes came to Payday 2 it got much faster paced and became way more of a horde shooter and there's a divide between if you like the slower playstyle closer to PD:TH or what we have now. What I forgot to mention was that you were on point by mentioning it as one of the crowd control heists. No Mercy is the best example of one even for optimal players who dome most civilians because it will instantly punish that by sounding the alarm, meaning if you really want to do it then it's probably the only case in the entire game where you have to do laps with really tense "civilian one second away from hitting the button" situations. The only other time the game came close to that was near release with pro jobs when players had less cash and failing the job would burn the contract.
THE KOTTI has finished the payday 2 video. Amazing! Keep it up!
Great vid, Kotti! Have you tried the 2D game Gunpoint?
Yeah, it's good. More of a puzzle game than anything.
As someone who's stealthed Firestarter before, don't, i wasted around 8 hours of my time, 4 of my friend's time, for literally nothing worthwile
There's a reason I put it in meme tier. Obviously not meant for stealth and completely broken, but I must say it was really damn satisfying to pull it off solo.
@@TheKotti it's certainly a dark souls esque satisfaction, finally managing to pull off something you thought impossible, it's certainly my proudest achievement in Payday 2, I may grind so i can do it in DSOD for once.
There was more broken promises like no microtransactions but due to 505Games publishing and demanding those they had to break that promise and add them though all the other safes except the 505 safes are free to open
and what comes to having to do more DLCs? well Bo Andersson really did fuck the studio up with his maniac spending like a new valhalla engine for the walking dead that wasn't even actually finished engine so they had paid close to 9 million dollars for a game engine that wasn't even finished
Thanks for clarification, I got on board after any promises were made so I wasn't able to follow things as they happened.
@@TheKotti Payday 2 has been a wild ride and soon 10 years old in August
How did you manage to put that movie scene in your ytbe video? 12:05
Hi. How much time do you think the writing and the editing took?
Writing? 4 years. Recording/editing? 2 weeks.
Hi Kotti, its been a long time. Good to see an upload. 😊
Good video Kotti!
What about Invisible Inc for the Spy-Heist inspired stealth game? It tas the randomness that prevents you from knowing what's up next or if you can be greedy. The way guards hunt for you when they're alerted creat great cat and mouse games.
Invisible Inc is very good for sure, though I've only done 2 playthroughs of it. I'm not big into roguelikes and felt like I got the most out of it, the length of a complete playthrough compared to a single Payday mission is just too much for me to replay it much.
as a payday 2 fan with over 1.3k hours invested, stealth sucks in this game
I used to play Payday 2 a lot and enjoyed purely stealth missions even more than loud missions. My issue is that if you actually want to complete a mission, you have to play it safe and some stealth missions are just RNG hell, requiring repeated attempts until RNGesus wants you to win. As long as you only care about playing for fun or to challenge yourself, all the janky stuff is easy to digest. But at some point it becomes very boring, especially when you repeat the same mission over 5 times and you get absolutely nothing. I can't bring myself to return to Payday 2. For Payday 3 I hope they make stealth a much more interesting and less janky option, there's almost no reason to play in a stealthy way in multiplayer since it's too much risk for little reward. I say keep the best parts and overhaul everything else.
One thing i will give the newer DLC heists is they've been experimenting with more freedom in objective order; rather than a linear "do this, then this, then this" which can be a bit nonsensical at times it's "do this and this in either order or do this approach instead"; Hostile Takeover is the most obvious example of this, but also stuff like Black Cat and Midland Ranch. Though, I suppose compared to stuff like Shadow Raid and Murky Station where it's "here's a box full of loot, figuire out how to get to all of it" it's still a bit limited.
Out of those, I've only played Black Cat. It did have more logical freedom than say Breakfast in Tijuana which I think has some of the dumbest sequences, but I didn't really get the feeling that it had much freedom. It felt more like the devs NOT setting up triggers than deliberately designing it to be open ended. Step in the right direction in any case.
Ive played the stealth for like 1500 hours, and it isn't that great compared to most stealth games, but a lot of players go way overboard and whine that it's trash
Especially the newest maps where stealth is optional are very poorly designed also, my main issue is that some maps are much easier in MP because you can hide more bodies
The new DLC are so optional and mediocre that it really isn't that bad
I have always been a massive fan of heist games and it’s a shame that there aren’t more of them, especially with a stealth focus. I’ve been crossing my fingers that IO Interactive will eventually make an entrance into the subgenre adding social and traditional stealth elements (especially with the idea of having multiple characters that have to interact at once) for an Oceans 11 type experience. I like the concept of payday 2 and the aspects of trying to plan the perfect job, but it really is more of a shooter with possible stealth elements rather than the other way around
The best thing about this game is the stealth, rather than the horde shooter it becomes. It’s a much more intricate GTA Online heist, not many games feature the design of being a thief like this one.
I pretty much used to play solo only because of this, unless you have a team of players who are willing to cooperate.
You should try version 1.0 . PD2 had so many uptades that honestly to version of the game could pass has diferent games.
Modern stealth is just better in every aspect, but made the old maps obsolete like you very well pointed.
the old stealth had his cool things, you should try it, you are going to experience the crowd control since otherwise you end in red by killing civs
I've played my share of pd2, and stealth has become more forgiving throughout the years. I sometimes play the really old versions of the game (2013-14), and it was designed around you either knowing exactly what you are doing or you have at least a teammate. Though honestly, I prefer Watch_Dogs 2 stealth a bit more because you can stealth really aggressively while doing everything solo.
and you don't get instant police response the moment you alert everyone (unless a civ calls 911 or a cop patrol saw you beforehand) and instead it's the faction that guards that restricted area and they need to call reinforcements to actually send people, even then hiding a bit makes them neutral again?
tho you still will be swarmed with enforcers in MRAPs if you do ;)
@wedoalittletrolling723 i usually cancel the reinforcements in Watch_Dogs 2 by stunning the guard calling the reinforcements through cams or with the mass distraction IF it's available, and I assume that it will be ready when I'll need it.
As a 1000 hours player of pd2 I can say that it's stealth heists are well planned and fun to play, but as you get better in the game you can really take advantage of how bad guard are programmed.
Have you made analysis, gameplay, reviews on the King/Queen of stealth games? Thief 1 and 2.
Crowd control is a great idea and needs to be worked on! Sadly most mechanica get streamlined too much and get used often in a generic, bad way Like the camouflage from MGS3, most games have this mechanic but mote basic and not like changing up your outfit or terrain. Like in Sniper Elite or other games where you have a radar and shows you the circle that you can get spotted from, like camouflage from MGS4.
As much as I like Thief (especially 2), I don't think there's anything I could say that a thousand other people haven't said already.
@@TheKotti Fair enough, l understand. It is a shame that games don't get the juicy concept of making the sound design from Thief. Literally, a second pair of eyes are your ears in it. However, l can understand that it all depends on the developer's main goal. It is that, most games feel generic, not trying anything new and just playing it "safe".
Perhaps the best way is to make a game ourselves, not a AAA or high class one but something that can combine good concepts into a great experience.
l have so much fun playing Metal Gear 2 solid snake, for a 8 bit game, it is an excellent stealth game in all aspects.
Alpha Protocol, oh boy, that game is just too tasty for this world to be fed on again.
Now that l think of stealth; games do need that tension of having limited resources and somewhat limited freedom in dealing with guards within context and reason. Example is the limited knockout or kills in Payday 2 which works great according to the map context.
You want stealth play the stealing painting mission
the stealth sucks ass becouse it encourages you to play by yourself on a coop game
I think this video could have benefited from a description of how a typical non-crowd control mission might play out.
I didn't consider it important to what I was going for beyond what was said at 1:00, but you may have a point.
Once you learn sprint+jump+crouch it both ruins and enhances stealth. It ruins it bc you realize you dont actually have to be sneaky, but it enhances it because it lets you do some REALLY dumb shit, especially if you run yakuza and lowering your health to near death.
I LOVE THE FUCKING KOTTI!!!!!!!!!!
U did not talked about music
I find it funny that you didn't even list Transport: Train on the list of stealth heists as it is probably one of the worst Payday 2 stealth maps (Especially on higher difficulties)
My mistake, somehow I forgot it! It would belong in the second or third column, I don't recall it being that difficult but it makes up for it in tediousness.
@@TheKotti It only gets really tedious on Mayhem+ where you have to get ALL 23 bags, with 11 guards on the map
I've only ever played most missions on DS, so makes sense.
i personally think Minecraft stealth is objectively amazing
this is a great video but why is election day and nightclub anywhere above simple enough at 13:47
A small factor is how enjoyable and/or functional I found them. I wouldn't want to subject new players to Election Day when they're starting out.
@@TheKotti I found Election day to be a grat starting mission to get used to a map and understand stealth mechanics. It's pretty simple to understand how it works too, compared to a lot of the later missions.
My perspective may be somewhat warped as I've almost exclusively played on Death Sentence, but I thought it was kinda rough with having to look for the crowbar every time and deal with guards potentially noticing the hacks. Plus it's a 2 day heist which sucks if you're new to the game and can't finish it in one sitting.
While being an interesting take on the stealth aspect of the game, I am confused by the fact you called the easier bank heists with crowd control "the hard ones". Bank heists are something veteran players do for breakfast and a good place to figute out stealth for a new player. Sending noobs to Shadow Raid right after the tutorial truly is a Death Sentence in my opinion.
I didn't call them the hard ones, I had crowd control as its own tier because they are too different to be directly compared to normal heists. You can't learn the normal stealth mechanics in them because they work completely differently.
@@TheKotti I disagree with the fact that you can't learn the stealth mechanics in them. As a new player you are put in a relatively small map, with little to no guards and a camera room up-close (or with cameras you need to take out). You learn how to dominate guards and civilians, how to answer pagers, take and move hostages, use bodybags and other consumables. You practice loot moving. Whilst I agree that GO Bank is hard for noobs, because of limited resources, constant civvie respawn and the fact that there is too much for the newcomer to look after, the usual bank heists with smaller jewelry stores (that you did not mention) are go-to levels for novices.
Most of those things are either self-evident and/or covered by the tutorial. If you're playing solo without any knowledge or skills and don't plan on murdering everyone, I think the bank heist is way harder than Shadow Raid which on Normal only requires 3 bags anyway.
@@TheKotti oh... people play stealth on other difficulties than Death Sentence... didn't think about that, actually. When I started it was a common information that if you plan a stealth approach only, you go for DS, as in stealth it doesnt get much more harder and you get 15x multiplier to money and xp reward.
I have played too much of payday 2 it hurts me
what are you up to these days?
Do Roblox’s entry point stealth
watch some marcmb videos and you might wanna do a follow up
that blacklist comparison killed me, no way you compared that 😭😭
i used to play payday 2 for a while, but their disgusting DLC model made me stop playing
i wouldn't call it outstanding. but it's fun (despite the poor and janky mechanics)
go bank isnt difficult
when requiring one working brain cell makes stealth advanced
when you solo it's kinda advanced tbh
@@ectotrix7399 flamethrower and stockholm syndrome "advanced" stealth
Everything except randomization and pagers is just arcade bullshit. No realism. Arcade sneaking?! Why not make realism when everything allows for it... I play stealth hugely for realism aspect too.
It's an arcade-y game... Not every game has to be 100% serious. And I say that with my most played game on steam being a serious mil-sim tactical shooter.
@@simpsondr12 hiding behind a tree to sneak in front of a guard?! This is attempting to be serious, but being pathetically dumb.
@@IrrationalDelusion It's not attempting to be serious...
but stealth irl is extremely hard
Mandatory stealth in a co-op game? What a great idea! (Said nobody ever) 😂😂😂
What does this even mean? You can play everything in this game solo and all levels can be completed loud as well if I remember correctly.
@TJGM There is a level where if you are spotted, it's an instant game over. Don't remember which one, because it's been years since I stopped playing this game. Also, if I am playing a stealth game, I prefer a polished experience with checkpoints and quicksaves, not a multplayer level that I need to solo or restart from the beginning if I fail. Ever since Codename 47, this feels awfully outdated.
@@DENIS_Biomech That is the point with this game if you get caught you lose. The game would be extremely boring if you had checkpoints.
@@DENIS_Biomech I don't think you even understand the game. It doesn't have any sort of story you have to follow, you play whatever heists you want, yeah there's a couple with stealth that will fail you a little bit after being spotted (though sometimes you can quickly finish), but the majority of heists are either stealth optional, or loud from the beginning. Absolutely nothing is forcing you to play heists you don't want to.
@@simpsondr12 payday is not a stealth game, it just stealth was added as an after tought
the franchise is known as a coop shooter where you mow down waves of SWAT
If it was a actual stealth game, loud wouldn't exist and it would be bit more linear
No, it's not
Yes, it is. People like you are the reason stealth might be ruined in Payday 3. Because it's not "realistic".
Wrong.
There is no thrill to stealth in a buggy mess of a game like Payday. You constantly fall victim to unoptimised for stealth map design, bad teammates, desync and some of the worst AI seen in co-op games. I have some points to list down
Civvies are annoying and ruin stealth
- They spot you behind them; I swear they have eyes on the back of their head
- When they spot you, they just stand there and alert everyone around them, causing nasty chain reactions (worst offender is Big Bank)
- Moving them is pain because of horrible pathfinding
- Frankly, just kill everyone. It’s an actual strategy. You make more money in the heist than you lose to cleaner costs; and killing all civvies removes the crowd control portion of the heist.
Small point about cops: they have the dumbest walk patterns I’ve ever seen. They walk backwards, they turn around multiple times in ten seconds because they have dementia and forgot that they already checked that place an instant ago.
The gameplay is repetitive and not at all engaging
- Some heists (especially old ones) are just one-dimensional waiting simulators
- You only ever use one kind of build and two perk decks
- If you make a mistake, that’s game over; you must restart. Sometimes, you have to restart up to FIFTY TIMES to get the heist right; more with trite teammates. Who on earth would want to play the boring way that many times?
Needless to say, TheKotti, this video portrays an opinion that I could never hold a positive opinion towards. I would even go as far as to say that I don’t respect it because of how wrong it is. But you seem like a nice guy. I hope your next videos are more informative and closer to truth. Keep up the good work.