I do not think that is what this sentence implies at all...it is just stating that He didn’t have to even make us or come to earth to redeem us, but He did...nothing in that lyric implies that He is lonely, He doesn’t need us! He made us because He chose to and that’s what the lyric is implying 💜
To me, "You didn't WANT heaven without us" implies a choice. He COULD have, but he didn't want it. it's not that He was lonely, He simply didn't WANT it!
Good podcast. I also have some issues with that line. I love what pastor John said: "His delight in us is the overflow of His fullness, not the compensation of His emptiness"
I love that he stated that, too. Thank you so much for rewriting it here soni May write it down for myself. Also, I love your Mario profile pic... huge supporter of his work!
This great song “What a Beautiful Name” has encouraged my faith many times. I especially like the part which says that the Lord did not want heaven without us, so Jesus brought heaven down. This reminds me of another, older song I heard a while ago which stated “For where Jesus is it will be Heaven for me”. Recently, I read a message from a missionary named I. Lilias Trotter (1853-1928) who stated “The sun must come to us, for we cannot go to it. It sends forth its rays, we know not how. They are of one nature with the sun and come down to earth and bring the sun, as it were, to our doors, but with its light and warmth softened till we can bear the radiance and rejoice in it. Even so the knowledge man had of God before Christ came was like the light of the dawn. When He came to earth, He came to reveal God, as the rays that are of one nature with the sun come to make it manifest in a way we can bear to behold. Christ is 'the brightness of His Glory, and the express image of His Person'. (Hebrews 1:3)" Jesus indeed brought heaven to us, and because of His sacrifice on the cross we can be saved from our sins and have the hope of heaven as our own, as this song expresses: "my sin was great, Your love was greater, what could separate me now?" Just to end this post with Christ's own words from Matthew 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” I hope you’ll take time to prayerfully listen to this song and let the love of Christ minister to your heart, may God bless you today!
Worship leaders are teachers.......A shocker for me as a worship leader. Thank you for emphasing on the gravity of the role. And the thing about a man centered gospel is EYE OPENING. I never put that into word,, ever!! I need to meditate on that. Be blessed!
I actually feel spiritually attacked on Sundays when the worship team at my church looks more like a rock band. The lead singer has both arms full of tattoos and earrings and hits very high notes that makes it impossible for regular folks to sing along. And then there's the lights. Its Sunday worship, not a concert. Am I being judgmental? Are churches compromising more and more?
I was once blind but now I see Answering your questions: “No” and “Yes”. You are on the right track: pray, pray, and pray again for your congregation. God will hear your prayer. The church is His alone , the glory is His alone, so He won’t sit idly by and let people do as they please.
I wrote a comment above as I'm personally not comfortable with the idea that worship leaders are teachers. it's a hugely important role but I don't believe a worship leader can be held accountable for the church having correct theology. Really? If there was no teaching it would be possible to substitute worship songs for it? The first thing I always think when I hear worship lyrics that I'm unsure about is that if the teaching of a church is deficient then song lyrics can't make up for it, and vice versa. if the teaching is solid then short of some very bad lyrics the worship won't undermine that.
It never occurred to me to construe that line as God being needy. I always took it to mean that he wanted to share his abundance because he is love and is generous.
The church I'm a part of changes the lyrics to "we couldn't reach haven without you, so Jesus you brought heaven down," which is similar to your tweak. :)
I'll use this as an excuse to post the words to my all time favourite below: Praise to the Lord, The Almighty, the king of creation! O my soul, praise Him, For He is thy health and salvation! All ye who hear, Now to His temple draw near; Praise Him in glad adoration. Praise to the Lord, Who o’er all things so wondrously reigneth, Shelters thee under His wings, Jesu gently sustaineth! Hast thou not seen All that is needful hath been Granted in what He ordaineth? Praise to the Lord, Who hath fearfully, wondrously, made thee; Health hath vouchsafed And, when heedlessly falling, hath stayed thee. What need or grief Ever hath failed of relief? Wings of His mercy did shade thee. Praise to the Lord, Who doth prosper thy work and defend thee; Surely His goodness And mercy here daily attend thee. Ponder anew all the Almighty can do, If with His love He befriend thee. Praise to the Lord, Who, when tempests their warfare are waging, Who, when the elements Madly around thee are raging, Biddeth them cease, Turneth their fury to peace, Whirlwinds and waters assuaging. Praise to the Lord, Who, when darkness of sin is abounding, Who, when iniquities triumph, all virtue confounding, Sheddeth His light, Chaseth the horrors of night, Saints with His mercies surrounding. Praise to the Lord, O let all that is in me adore Him! All that hath life and breath, Come now with praises before Him. Let the Amen sound from His altar again, Gladly for aye we adore Him. _ Words: Joachim Neander, 1680. Originally penned in German as "Lobe Den Herren, Den mächtigen König der Ehren."
I've been praying for months for a resource to share with the worship team at my church, and finally it is here. Thank you! This is a great summation for what I know is going on in the church I attend.
The best thing about this podcast was to encourage us as believers to not quench the Holy Spirit. If we find something not right in what we are singing, watching, or listening to we mustn't just brush it aside, look into it and if it's a problem address it, if not then praise God. Like so many of you I liked so many lines in this song but that one always bothered me. It's OK to critically and fairly question even things produced for and by believers, it strengthens us all.
"like a rose trampled on the ground, you took the fall, and thought of me, above all..." To me that says that Christ thought of me and my need to know God's love, grace and glory above all [of my sin], above all [of my betrayal to Him]. It is man who mistreated and betrayed Him throughout all time, not just in the Bible, and I believe that is what "like a rose trampled..." pertains to... However He takes the fall anyway, He alone suffers the consequences of all mankind's sin (took the fall) and washes us clean above [it] all. And I thank God that that is the case!
I NEVER once took it in the context that Pastor John mentioned here, and was shocked to hear when he brought that up. I took "Above all" as a separate clause. That Jesus is Above all, because He went through the point of being "trampled like a rose" whereas NO ONE would or could, and yet thought of us sinners despite all those rejections. I guess it really comes down to how one sees and perceives the context. I can also see Pastor John's perspective, and why he dislikes it. In that context, "you took the fall, and thought of me above all other things" does sound questionable. But as stated above, I never took it this way with there being a pause, and then saying "Above all." It just sounded like a separate clause and a way to rephrase the title of the song, with it being attributed to Jesus being Above All.
People should check out the song on youtube. It is a wonderful and Christ glorifying song, in my opinion one of the best in the last 20 years. What a beautiful name, what a wonderful name, what a powerful name. The amount of comments of people who have been encouraged, turned to the Lord, is amazing. Muslims who have felt something so as to turn to Christ. Seems great to me.
I've always looked at it as saying he didn't want us to be lost in our sin. So he made the way, Jesus, for us to be with him. I've never felt that this song implies that the Lord is incomplete without us, but just that he loves us and wants to bring glory to his name through us. Jesus brought heaven down: as much as we can understand, we build the kingdom of God in what we do here, but it started with Christ the head. If we could not build the kingdom and have a part in the body here on earth, we wouldn't be here. Us as his children, and He as our king, is the kingdom here on earth. Jesus is the way. What a wonderful name! I hope you can worship in all you do.
The problem with many of today's 'worship songs' is that they come out of churches that do not teach sound doctrine, such as Hillsong & Bethel Church. Therefore, the composers don't know sound doctrine and will put in words or phrases that sound catchy or edgy. Personally, some of my favorite worship songs are: AMAZING GRACE, HOW GREAT THOU ART, THERE IS A FOUNTAIN FILLED WITH BLOOD, THE HAVEN OF REST, IT IS WELL WITH MY SOUL and hundreds of others. Yes, I prefer the old hymns. You just can't hardly go wrong with those.
Can those timeless hymns be sung in mass auditoriums or only in old country side churches? Do you think the meaning of the lyrics can stay the same, while changing the atmosphere of the song or worship environment? If not, why not?
i'm kind of amused how some of these songs sound kind of similar to three days grace or something. I've kind of started (jokingly) telling people three days grace is a christian band
Thank you! People tend to brush off criticisms of worship sets thinking others are critiquing the performance. No, we’re critiquing the lyrics, the theology, which should be just as important and CORRECT as the sermon.
I wasnt going to post anything because there are already too many comments. And it's not like Pastor John will read this. Let me preface my comment by saying that I absolutely have the utmost respect for Pastor John and his ministry. I listen to Desiring God podcast every day. I also listen to his message through his sermon app. I also have a few books of his. To say that I am a John Piper fan is understatement. The guy rocks! However, I object to these episodes on contemporary music. (the other one being on Reckless Love) Clearly, if a song is sacrilegious, irreverent, or just dead wrong then the song needs to go away never to be sung again. But I literally witnessed God save two people during a WORSHIP night at my local church. This song was one of the songs we sang over and over. How do I know they were saved? Upon looking at my neighbors, I put my arm around one of them and said, "do you want to invite Jesus into your heart?" The man, sobbing like a baby, said, "yes". After the worship night was over, I walked with him to the front of the church where we prayed and discussed what happened with the pastor. There was also a woman next to me that was saved. We did the same thing - prayed, asked her if she wanted to invite Jesus into her heart and she said yes. Since that day, it's been a little more than a year, those two people's lives have been radically altered for good. They are COMPLETELY different people. They attend Bible study. They attend LifeGroups. They give of their time and money. It's amazing to watch transformation. I think people read way too much into these songs. When I listen to "What a Wonderful Name", I picture a loving God, not a bored God, who created these human beings, and noticing we were adrift, sent a Savior in His Son to save us from our sin to give us hope, life, and salvation. That's what I picture in this song; nothing sacrosanct. That's my two cents.
Amen brother. Good testimony. Well said. Millions have been touched by the song "What a beautiful name", and here are people questioning one ambiguous line from a song that is otherwise fantastic. Sad. Very sad.
But this particular song "What a beautiful name" does not contain inane babble, so lumping it with other modern songs is not fair. Each song should be judged on it's individual merit. I wonder if Pastor John has even listened to it. Giving him the most questionable line of the song, and putting the most negative interpretation on it and then asking him about the song is not fair. A bit like taking a video of you at your worst moment of anger and drawing a conclusion on your spiritual maturity from that one snapshot.
Kevin Hardy I think it would really help if Piper did a little research before making his comments. This article from one of the authors gives an explanation hillsong.com/collected/blog/2017/05/scriptural-inspiration-behind-the-lyrics-of-what-a-beautiful-name/
@@ryanpmcp Pastor John is a Calvinist. As such, they’re extremely bible literal (black and white letter). Anything that doesn’t comply with the exact words isn’t okay with him. Notice that he doesn’t provide any context to the scripture. His logic is extremely not nuanced. He doesn’t go into counter arguments or anything. I wish Calvinist can separate art and theology, and recognize that they don’t always have to comply with scripture black and white for it to touch someone. They also need to realize most millennials, which these new songs normally catered to, don’t really want to go sings songs that say they’re worthless garbage.
Jesus came to preach Gospel to set us free to deliver us from sin.To forgive us of sin.To bring about grace and mercy.To teach us about Repentanc.To teach us to forgive.To teach us that his kingdom was not of this world.To teach us that you cant be saved unless you are born again from above.
It's often difficult to understand text without context. It's for this reason why people have so much difficulty communicating by text message versus picking up a phone and talking to someone in person. People can usually exchange for clarity when talking on the phone. I'm saying this to build on the idea that arguments, such as "what does the author mean?" or "how should we interpret this song?", can often times be avoided if a worship leader performs the role of "leading" the congregation in worship. Ineffective worship leaders just sing the song, but capable worship leaders identify when songs sometimes need explanation. This does not mean there's anything wrong with a particular song. Ministers of music do not break down a song or drop to a downbeat and talk over songs just because that's what you see in concerts, they are helping guide the understanding of the congregation so it can gain the most spiritual edification from reciting the lyrics of worship songs.
I understand what Pastor John is saying if this line stood on its own. But it doesn’t. The next line expands on it and continues the thought by saying “my sin was great, your love was greater. What can separate us now?” In context, we couldn’t have heaven because of our sin. But Jesus didn’t leave us in that state but “brought heaven down”. In context it has nothing to do with God being lonely and is not implied in the song. When sung in context to the rest of the song, there shouldn’t be an issue with it. He didn’t leave us all destined to an eternity apart from Him (you didn’t want heaven without us) but while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (so Jesus, you brought heaven down). It’s good news. It’s the Gospel.
I understand perfectly what you're saying Bro.David. But wanted to highlight one particular statement that Pr.John mentioned as alluding to humanistic philosophy. God's love for us is the overflow of HIS fulness and not a compensation of HIS loneliness... Think that's the potential danger of those lyrics...
David Best - question, is there any scripture that you can give me where it indicates that Jesus brought heaven down to earth without going into the future that hasn’t happened yet?
Luke 17:20-21 King James Version (KJV) 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Matthew 4:17 English Standard Version (ESV) 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”[a] Footnotes: Matthew 4:17 Or the kingdom of heaven has come near So yes, Jesus did in fact bring heaven down to earth when he came for his earthly ministry. So it is two fold; the kingdom of heaven is present in us now so we can show heaven to others, and it will be spread across the whole earth in the future.
Just listened to the podcast and I tend to agree with you. 'You didn't want heaven without us' - God didn't want to leave us in hell. 'So Jesus, you brought heaven down' - Jesus himself came down to die for us so we can be with him in heaven. Probably more accurate if song says the Father brought Jesus down as it was the Father who sent Jesus. I don't see how the song implies that God is incomplete or lonely. Maybe someone could enlighten me.
We’ll be singing this song at my church in Spanish. The lyric is translated to, ‘You traded heaven to save me (us). You came and recused me (us).’ “Dejaste el cielo por salvarme, me viniste a rescatar”
I always took the line in “What a beautiful name” to mean he loved us so much he didn’t want to be without us so he created us and the garden of Eden. Then the next line says “our sin was great, your love was greater” which of course is the fall. Also in “Above All” the entire song states above what. It talks about all the wonders and treasures and wealth of the world and yet he died for us specifically. He died for ME. Everyone can say that same thing. It doesn’t mean he died for just me. It means he had each and every one of us specifically in mind. I think you can find some fault in almost any song if you twist it the right way.
I have had an issue with the lyrics from a Elevation Worship song for time as well. It says in the song “You have never failed me yet”, the word “yet” in the song, implies that it might happen, but God’s word says he will never fail us.
You didn't want heaven without us... so Jesus, you brought heaven down. Where in any of God's word does it mean that if humanity can't be in heaven, Jesus will not remain in heaven or want to remain on earth forever with sin, death and sinful man?
Praise God Pastor John and yes the entire team!! This is an 18 year old from India. Okay I was listening towards the end of the podcast, and yes it took to my notice, about the lyrics of the song 'Above All'. "Like a rose, trampled on the ground, You took the fall and thought of me, Above all" I just thought of asking you whether, can it be that above all refers to, God considering us above all the 'powers' that Satan said He would be given,(the time in the wilderness, when God was so much man and equally God!),above all the pain(be it physical,emotional..) he endured,the shame,the accusations, above the rejection from His own(Above all the things mentioned in the earlier verses of the song)... ??Above all these,(Unlike like,'above' His glory which is never the case nor is it that one of us is more important to Him than the others He saved, so that we can think that,above the rest of the humanity he thought of me) His desire(love) that the creations should join their Creator drove Him through it all that, so that we'll receive the right to His Kingdom!!! And yes this is truly because he amazingly delights in us and not that he can't live without us or something... Please do consider this and do correct this young mind, that's open to corrections of any sort... Much love, respect and prayers-Amy
The understanding that at the cross he was crucified and shed his Blood for forgiveness of our sins and entered in the Holy of Holies with his own Blood one time for all not to be repeated again with his own blood.
The world has been in the church for a very very very long time. Satan infected the church through the world when the early church lost its way and became religious and the roman empire turned it into something it should never have been.
The whole disconcerting thing about this type of music is that as a musician, it's not complex. My brain can shut off because it isn't being challenged. Enter sketchy lyrics. Hymns are great because the lyrics can be sound theology, and the music is engaging, not mere chanted mantra. Christians should never be mentally checked out during worship. Myself included. And when we do, we fail to worship God as He deserves, and we make ourselves oblivious to heresy in song lyrics. I'll be more vigilant from now on.
Daniel Fourie Jesus > anything in this world “Don’t love the world or the things of the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 Jn.2:15
The reason most (not all) Calvinists question this song is because of a low regard for Hillsong church in general which clouds their opinion of this particular song. They scroll through the lyrics to purposely find anyting questionable in order to write it off. But in this case, the song is great. Praise the Lord Jesus for a beautiful song about our Savior. So many people have been positively affected by this song, myself included.
I am not against Pastor John's comment but I think the first thing we should ask is, "What's in the heart of the composer?" or "What is the purpose of him/her writing the song?" second thing is the full context of the song, let us not be partial about it. I believe that every song written (Christian song) has a meaning and has scriptural inspiration. My advice to all the Worship Leader in the Church is to check the background (composer, meaning, etc.) of every song they will sing, if there is any doubt / question you have you can ask your Leaders or Pastors. Thank you.
Mattaniah Glorious great point! And if you watch the story about this song you’ll see that the writers were spending a lot of time in Colossians in particular. They aren’t just writing random words. I don’t love that line in what a beautiful name, but I think it’s a poetic choice that aims to capture that God desires to share the glory and joy He has in himself, with us His fallen creation, at great cost. There is plenty of good Resurrection themed content in this song too. I think people are missing the greater stuff in this song by focusing on one line that took some poetic license. That being said, I do appreciate some of Pastor Johns guiding principles for sure and his reminder that worship leaders are teachers.
Jesus was sent down not because there was a void in heaven, but because the earth was void of a Savior, man needed a Savior to bear the weight of sin, the wrath of God was let out on Jesus, and that is what the Old Testament prophets prophesied, they prophesied a Savior coming to be ripped apart and tortured, for yet puny disgusting humans.
There are so many "modern" worship songs that are questionable. Franky, I miss the classic gospel hymns from the distant past. Those songs had some DEPTH. Take for example any song asking for God's fire. That immediately reminds me of THIS passage... Matthew 25:41 ESV - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. I'l take the _Living Water_ instead, thanks. John 7:38-39 ESV - Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive...
Wow, never thougt of the lyric that way. Now this feels like a reason why I messed up so badly singing it, perhaps was consumed with pride and too much enjoyment in the musical aspects without thinking deeply enough of spiritual meaning...
When preaching / singing the truths of God, there is no room for "artistic interpretation". We must look solely at what His Holy Word says. Preach the text. The truth is, as laid out in scripture, God is perfect and complete in Himself and lacks nothing. Does he care for us and desire that we are in heaven with Him? Of course. Does he NEED us there to the point that he doesn't want heaven without us? Absolutely not. For our church, we chose not to sing the song on the basis of this one line alone. There are simply too many other great songs to choose from.
Pastor, I guess that's what you understand but as I sing that part of the verse, I am reminded of 2 Peter 3:9 and John 3:16. Nothing about God's misery or loneliness or deficiency was mentioned. But it's true that it could be dangerous to the interpretation of others. However, when it is sung, I believe it should be explained. Or else better not have it at all.
Hi janelle, I think the point is that the Bible doesn’t mention God’s misery or loneliness or deficiency but the lyrics in the song “can” be interpreted that way. Near the end of the podcast Piper says that God does things not because he lacks anything but because it’s an overflow of his love and delight for the world and “not a compensation for it”. There are more reasons to my stance such as the meaning of “so” being used differently in the song and in John 3:16 along with other points mentioned by Piper in choosing lyrically strong songs so that the congregation is not misled in any way. In my mind I think “why feed the church a can of tuna when you have access to fresh fish”. Apologies if that analogy is hard to understand but if you have the best to give, why give them the second best or third best and so on.
I'll start by stating my view of worship which may or may not be flawed (just so y'all understand where i am coming from) MY VIEW...worship is primarily for God. Its one of those instances where we"minister" to him (2 chron 29:11ESV) and yes we as the church are also ministered to(encouraged, edified etc) in the process but mainly, worship from my understanding is mainly abt God (he knows exactly what the authors are trying to communicate) we on the other hand are prone to reading into things and misunderstanding. So what has helped me with texts I wasn't clear on has been trying to find the authors intent or the inspiration behind the song thru interviews and the like. If that still doesn't set your mind at ease,then just don't sing the song. I wld have to disagree with pastor John's assertion that this song is one of those songs which is "man centered" and that is an opinion I made after listening to the song and the story and intent behind it. Of course songwriters too can miss the mark in writing worship music, I however do not think that was the case here.
I mostly listen to Shane and Shane Psalms album I and II ... Because it's biblical... lol and even that scares me cause of the New Age Kundalini channeling that Hill Song and Jesus Culture have been accused of using... 😢
Praise Be To YAH and His SON what's the scripture reference for a Kundalini spirit? That's not me justifying any churches behaviour, I'm merely outlining a concern I have with those who say they are all about reading God's word faithfully, yet believe conspiracy theories about 'Kundalini' spirits without any biblical mention and second thought. Should we be impulsive in disregarding what could be a great work of God?
@@streplay the kundalini spirit is the false spirit that people try to attribute as God, but is actually a demon. It's name might not be mentioned in Scripture, but if it doesn't lead the person to produce the Fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22), then it's most certainly NOT from God!
@@streplay Could you please talk about where in the Bible is the kundalini spirit? My Sister is into this and it makes no Biblical sense. I don't recall Jesus and His disciples doing this.
I find that quite a bit of Christian music today is not that good theologically. It might sound good and be catchy, but the words are either not biblical or they just aren't very enriching and life giving or the words are just slightly off, but that line can make people stumble. Music is tricky. It has a huge power to influence us in deep ways. It can affect us in so many ways, for good or for bad. We have to be careful with music because of it's great power. Our words by themselves can be very powerful, but add music behind them and they can do a lot. Worship leaders should be very careful with what music they have the church singing. One thing that kind of bugs me about some churches, including mine (not to attack any churches), is that some songs say something like "we lift our hands..." and nobody is raising they're hands. It's not that the line is bad, but why are we singing that when nobody is raising their hands (except this one guy at my church and my mom). I personally don't raise my hands in church, but sometimes I have done it singing alone. Also, even if half of the church raises their hands, I would feel strange about it because a lot of people aren't doing what they're singing. I usually just don't sing those parts or change it to "lift my voice" or something similar. Anyways, that's just my thoughts. I am glad to hear that this worship leader is looking closely at the songs his church sings.
David William A. You’ve made some good points, however with this song in particular I think if you watched the story behind this song you’d see how clearly the writers rely on scripture for content. Colossians is one book that comes to mind.
I interpreted the lyrics "thought of us above all" to mean that Jesus put our salvation "above" his sacrifice of leaving heaven to suffer and die in our place. Contemporary music is like reading a modern Christian fiction book (maybe Veggie Tales). The old hymns and the Psalter are like reading Pilgrim's Progress.
I've always found this line of this song interesting. It got the same initial knee jerk reaction from me as it has given so many others, BUT consider this... God determined from eternity past those who would be saved by His precious Son Jesus Christ. It was His good pleasure to do so. He was also fully capable of accomplishing this work. So which is a truer statement... God wanted us (the elect) to be in heaven where He has created a place for us, and did this through His omnipotence, sovereignty and omniscience in eternity past, OR, He didn't want heaven without those whom He predestined?? In my mind there is more to question in the following lyric, "So, Jesus, You brought heaven down." Now there's a subjective (although not harmful) line with poetic freedom taken. In short, the lyric mostly in question here ("You didn't want heaven without us...") does not seem to assault the aseity of God, but instead affirms what every Calvinist believes, however, it does so with a negative statement. Perhaps we lack imagination sometimes?
God didn't/doesn't determine who will be saved, that is up to us through faith. He did/does have foreknowledge of those who will be saved. It is not His will any be lost but that all come to repentance which contradicts Him picking and choosing ppl to save.
@@johnanthony9225 thank you for that. I'm a new Christian and hadn't quite grasped that point; I was feeling happy God picked me and wishing I knew if he had picked some of my still-atheist friends. But after reflecting on your comment it seems that our choice to believe, repent, and obey is the key to accepting the salvation God wants us to have. This foreknowledge vs predetermination issue is a hard one!
Jennifer Thomas Exactly. He beckons us to come. Rev 22:17. He doesn’t predestine anyone to heaven or hell but bids all of us to come take from His hand freely.
Bear Hug I'm not pastor John, but for modern music with both sound theology and musical excellence, check out Sovereign Grace Music, Stuart Townend, and the Getty's.
Bear Hug I am also not pastor John :)), but Ascend The Hill is one of my favorites, as is Rivers and Robot, Gungor, and All Sons and Daughters. They all do Christ centered, beautiful, contemporary music.
Thank you Pastor John! "You died for me the ultimate sacrifice, for me whom you had never seen" . This verse is from "Jesus Saves". This is not biblical.
What about Bible passages that make people question or raise some flag? Should we stop quoting scriptures that make people uncomfortable because they don’t like it or might not understand it at first? People can easily misinterpret scripture. But we don’t stop using scriptures that may be read the wrong way. In fact a lot of times we do have to explain them. So “If anyone even questions it it shouldn’t be sung” seems like and logic. If someone in the congregation doesn’t get it, then it should be explained to them. It’s simple. We’d do the same for any other passage misunderstood at first glance
I dont understand the contaversy over this line. It makes sense to me as a summary of the redemptive story of the Bible. Jesus bringing is a poetic reference to Rev 21. God not want heaven without us is poetic reference to God's plan to redeem a people for himself which culminated at the cross. The ideas about God being lonely or being dependent on us are heresies in Christianity today, but I dont think this particular lyric is heretical.
God freely chose to create. He also freely chose to save. He was under no obligation to do either. Psalm 8 is interesting. David is most concerned with the glory of God. Yet, as he describes God's glory he does so by referencing God's creation. David marvels over the fact that though man is so small and insignificant, God is mindful of him (Ps. 8:4-5). We also know that God created man in his own image. My point is that too often, we overreact in our fear that we might rob God of His glory by highlighting His special relationship with man. Why did God choose to save? He chose to save because He loved the world (John 3:16). How then can anyone assert that God doesn't want His people in heaven? God doesn't need us, yet He wants us. I believe that is a healthy tension that is Biblical.
Pastor John.. I guess the song "Above All" categorically states that you are above all wisdom, wealth, kingdoms, powers, all creations on Earth... Is my understanding correct... Pls clarify... Thanks.
Jesus had to teach that it took his death to forgive our sins and that he was the way the truth the life the resurrection.That he had to go back to the Father are the Spirit would not come the Holy Spirit.
My idea is that Even lukewarm Christians can write good lyrics, it just depends I mean, how do I say this, going to church does NOT make you a Christian, you need to be conflicted by God, and read to bible and understand it, and question things better And yeah, sure God is good but lukewarms don't ever know or say why. You should watch more Francis Chan to know more about lukewarm Christian, love what he says
Learn to separate song and scripture. Those two don’t always have to go hand in hand necessarily, and then when one fails, people draw an huge inference that the entire church of which the writer belongs to, or that the writer’s identity is then proved false, because their song isn’t black and white in line w. Scripture, as it takes into account a multitude of non-scripture, theology analyzes to write a song.
This is what happens when people write songs to sign a music label and not to worship God. Olden days most of the songs came out of inspiration by the Holy Spirit... And they were in tandem with the theology.. sadly today it is all about swaying the crowd and signing new music label and for the purpose of "worship tour". Not for the congregational singing...
Is there even any scripture in the Bible that indicates (without looking to the future) that Jesus has brought heaven down to earth. Wouldn’t the earth be perfected if heaven were here? Jesus didn’t even end sin here on earth while he was here... the lyric just doesn’t hold water if you ask me.
I know the songwriter personally who penned the line you referenced. He is a humble, Christ follower who would never, I'm sure, disparage the ministry of a Christian brother the way you have. So sad.
@@janineholley7980 Truth matters to God. Your words matter. There is a difference between "disparaging" a ministry and correcting false statements about God in somebody's lyrics. Be offended and saddened all you want. Truth matters to God.
I don't know if you guys at Desirig God read the comment section, but how does one, like John Piper, have this stance on worship but still speak on a pulpit and a stage where these songs have been sung? Such as Passion Conference. Just wondering, as a pastor myself I would like to know how far we go to manage such things.
Max Park I'm sure that Pastor Piper would rarely turn down an opportunity to preach the truth to a group of probably mostly unregenerate Christians. I think it is wise for him to preach at such churches, they NEED THE REAL GOSPEL. I'm sure in those instances he is there to spread the gospel not to criticize their music even if it or their other teachings are heretical.
In the podast episode that deals w/Bethel Music's "Reckless Love", he says that he considers such lyrics as "poetic license". He also says that if a person isn't comfortable with singing such lines & doesn't want to, then don't!
Nechole777 that’s a terribly judgemental accusation. I think there is good evidence that the writers of these songs do spend time with God and the scriptures. It’s one thing to think that it wasn’t the best lyric, it’s another to say that the person doesn’t have a strong relationship with God. Can you say that everything you’ve ever said or done was perfect? Of course not, but does that mean I should say you don’t spend time with God?
but doesnt He want to show his glory because he loves us? im confused about that, because i remember listening to pastor John say God is not ego maniac he is after his own Glory because its the most loving thing to do
Yes and no. He shows his glory by loving us, by dying while we were yet sinners. It is quite literally impossible to examine God this way because He is the measure of love. That is why the Bible can say "God is love" because he is the bar, he is the standard. We cannot say ____ is the most loving thing God can do because whatever he does is automatically the most loving and just thing. God's couldn't be a ego maniac because he really is as great as he is, he is worthy of everything. His infinite glory is revealed in us and by his transforming work in the believer and his love and glory is shown even in his casting the wicked along with Satan and all his followers into hell. He is not earning glory, he is already infinitely glorified, his glory is simply being revealed.
agree but still so God isnt doing anything actively He is Just being? i can get that, but doesnt he have a goal or is Just God being God and everything we have to say about it is just deemly viewed human trying to understand what he is seeing Or is God actively wanting to Show his Glory, not adding to it but rather to show it, there are two question that come behind it: 1) Why? 2) to who? Why is more important but there is also the possibility that God is just being God and Glory automatically is following Him, but its not like He is looking to show his Glory
For the most part an answer to the question would be mere speculation. However there are actually a few verses to start with Ephesians 1:5, 1:9, 1:17-19 these are just a couple highlight verses but honestly the entire chapter and book shows it is God's will for us to be reconciled with him grow in the knowledge of him. Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. The who is us and probably all creation including the angels and heavenly beings and perhaps even Satan and his followers. As for why, that is a most profound question, but in my opinion it all goes back to "God is love" it simply is in his nature, he has many other attributes for I would define glory as: someone’s or something’s apparent (by observation or knowledge) merit or worth based on their qualities/traits and/or accomplishments/abilities and to a further degree when speaking of God the unveiling of His excellence and preeminence Clearly from scripture God wants and does everything so he is glorified(of shown to be glorious) and his love is part that for his glory is shown in who he is and all he does.
Thanks! i guess there is still quite a bit of mystery in my mind about the deep truths of God but thats pretty normal, may God bless you, and thank you for taking the time to write down the bible verses!
So the verse in question is "You didn't want heaven without us , so Jesus You brought heaven down." So how I see it is: He didn't want heaven without us. John 14:2-3 --> In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, so that where I am you may be also. So He wants us be with Him in Heaven. & When Jesus came down to earth he brought down heaven. Meaning he brought the Word, & His sacrifice so that we can enter heaven. Why complicate things, if this song isn't biblical (FACE SLAP), and you think that if you sing it you are worshipping satan, then ..........................
Have to disagree with Pastor John on this particular song. Not only do I think that's not the interpretation that was intended, it's feels like a bit of a stretch to interpret it that way. At least that's what it looks like to me. I think it's a magnificent song praising the power of Jesus's name.
Am I the only one who thinks "Holy Spirit" by Francesca Batistelli implies that the Spirit can leave believers? That's a very dangerous and unbiblical message for Christians, particularly new ones.
The Full Story with James Tulp I feel like it's meant to be more about surrendering yourself before God and letting Him move you. But I can see how someone who maybe has little knowledge of christian theology could be confused.
Wow! These guys Inc Pastor John sound very convincing re the argument for when worship lyrics miss the mark, but seriously, on the other hand, rightly or wrongly, I can't help thinking, with all due respect, isn't this just petty? Knit picking at what I personally feel, ( & millions of others) at a beautiful, Holy Spirit led, anointed, trust from the heart of a born again Christian worship song; just because of 1 or 2 lines in it might come across suspect theologically? Just because it says "You didn't want heaven without us", I don't see why people have to interpret it as saying God would have been sad without us. How I look at it is it was God's intention/ plan to come down & save his chosen ones. However, I'm sure there are probably worship songs, new & old that miss the mark, but I do question whether people have gone a bit too far analysing, so therefore end up becoming legalistic.
Katie Dorey on point bro, the critics being too petty. If they truly did study the entire ministry of Jesus Christ. He did brought Heaven down. I mean like what was that that happened on the Mountain of Transfiguration? Where the Glory of God Cloud showed up and the Father spoke from the cloud saying This is My Beloved Son, hear Him. What was raising a dead Lazarus who was dead for a few days? What was turning water into the best wine at a wedding in Cana? What was Jesus performing a miracle in front of those religious Pharisee Critics where Jesus told the man with a withered hand, to stretch it out and it became normal? What was that when Jesus Christ multiplied food, bread and fish to feed 5,000 people. Plus with leftovers. And many other great works. If that wasn't Heaven, then these critics have a serious misunderstanding of Heaven. Here's a hint to help critics understand, there is No Food Shortages, No Sickness, No death etc, in Heaven. Duh! Critics trying to look like them 5 virgins without oil? Or trying to be like the Pharisees who don't really care about the real issues, the people's problems/issues, or the believers. The believers who are literally praising the Lord with this song. (Actual good fruit) Oh yeah, them Pharisees critics in bible criticize when the people and children were holding up palm leaves saying Hosanna in the Highest. Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord. Petty surface level Critics are nothing new under the shining Sun. They have the rewards of criticizing.
I hear your point, but then would ask where the focus is. Who are we worshiping? If it's not about us and it is about Him, then we need to listen to what He has shared with us and who He says that He is and carefully work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Words matter. Specifically, His Word matters of the utmost priority. If we change just a little bit, the next generation will change just a little bit...and on it goes. The Enemy of our Soul is deceptive. It is not about the heart of a person, or our feelings, it is about the Word of God, which does not change. Personally, I feel that the current trend in Worship is very me-centric, shallow and empty of foundational doctrine. It's overly simplistic and repetitive...shall I repeat that for effect? lol Either way, it's good that these conversations are out there - many have cautions about current lyrics, but don't have a forum to share...and/or be heard. God bless you as we continue to pursue Him!
The Bible says to "study to show ourselves approved, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Paul told others to reference what he said to Old Testament scriptures. Then we are told to try the spirits. So if we are told to study the Word of God, flesh out every meaning, then test peoples spirits against what the Spirit of God is saying, wouldn't it just make sense to analyse what those who preach, teach and sing to us are saying? We are each responsible for our own faith, no holy man dicates to us anymore, each person has to take it on for themselves, and it's not wrong to disagree with a pastor, a teaching, a book or a song. Matters of doctrine are hardly petty. Everyone wants to throw around the term "legalistic". It's not legalistic to call out heresies. Legalistic, in a religious sense, is term pertaining to the Old Testament laws, to use it correctly, you have to present a case that the questioning is based on a dispute with some church law. Discussing things of doctrinal significance is hardly legalistic, it is in fact, the basis of the New Testament. Jesus came and corrected poor doctrine. And it seems Pastor John was very diplomatic. If it bothers you, then don't sing it, but if your conscious is clear, than be free. As the Bible says, Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. You eat, I don't, I don't despise you, but I love you in Christ, and He will work out the difference. May His Spirit guide you always.
I'm not sure it's right to apply the scripture about teachers being judged more harshly to worship leaders. I don't think they are teachers and I can't imagine that singing someone else's song to a congregation would be viewed by God as comparable to expressing your own views. Perhaps you could apply this to worship song writers but even then I don't think worship lyrics are quite comparable to teaching because of the poetic licence involved. A teacher wouldn't feel the need to describe Jesus as a rose trampled on the ground but a lyricist might use that kind of image. I'm not sure you can compare the two and how they will be judged.
Has the poster ever tried to write an album worth of theologically perfect songs? It's practically impossible. Maybe we should just sing "it is well with my soul" non stop, forever.
You Need to Seek and Know Jesus For YOURSELF! And stop listening to the Clowns in church and on UA-cam regurgitate Opinions based on Opinions of Others!
"You could have had heaven without us, but Jesus You brought heaven down."
Perfect.
Agreed! so important to understand what we are singing, as John says it totally gets absorbed into us.
I do not think that is what this sentence implies at all...it is just stating that He didn’t have to even make us or come to earth to redeem us, but He did...nothing in that lyric implies that He is lonely, He doesn’t need us! He made us because He chose to and that’s what the lyric is implying 💜
Great edit.
Fyi, changing lyrics without the author’s permission misrepresents their work, and breaks copyright (meaning it’s illegal to do so).
To me, "You didn't WANT heaven without us" implies a choice. He COULD have, but he didn't want it. it's not that He was lonely, He simply didn't WANT it!
My family and I left a evangelical church after 10 years and now attend a Lutheran Brethren church. It has been a great change for us;)
A college ministry I was a part of changed it to “you could have had heaven without us, but Jesus you brought heaven down” and I really liked that
In spanish we changed the lyrics a bit while translating, now we sing "you left heaven to save us, you came to rescue us" in Spanish ;)
SMART.
Good podcast. I also have some issues with that line. I love what pastor John said: "His delight in us is the overflow of His fullness, not the compensation of His emptiness"
I love that he stated that, too. Thank you so much for rewriting it here soni May write it down for myself. Also, I love your Mario profile pic... huge supporter of his work!
This great song “What a Beautiful Name” has encouraged my faith many times. I especially like the part which says that the Lord did not want heaven without us, so Jesus brought heaven down. This reminds me of another, older song I heard a while ago which stated “For where Jesus is it will be Heaven for me”. Recently, I read a message from a missionary named I. Lilias Trotter (1853-1928) who stated “The sun must come to us, for we cannot go to it. It sends forth its rays, we know not how. They are of one nature with the sun and come down to earth and bring the sun, as it were, to our doors, but with its light and warmth softened till we can bear the radiance and rejoice in it. Even so the knowledge man had of God before Christ came was like the light of the dawn. When He came to earth, He came to reveal God, as the rays that are of one nature with the sun come to make it manifest in a way we can bear to behold. Christ is 'the brightness of His Glory, and the express image of His Person'. (Hebrews 1:3)" Jesus indeed brought heaven to us, and because of His sacrifice on the cross we can be saved from our sins and have the hope of heaven as our own, as this song expresses: "my sin was great, Your love was greater, what could separate me now?" Just to end this post with Christ's own words from Matthew 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” I hope you’ll take time to prayerfully listen to this song and let the love of Christ minister to your heart, may God bless you today!
Worship leaders are teachers.......A shocker for me as a worship leader.
Thank you for emphasing on the gravity of the role.
And the thing about a man centered gospel is EYE OPENING. I never put that into word,, ever!! I need to meditate on that. Be blessed!
I actually feel spiritually attacked on Sundays when the worship team at my church looks more like a rock band. The lead singer has both arms full of tattoos and earrings and hits very high notes that makes it impossible for regular folks to sing along. And then there's the lights. Its Sunday worship, not a concert. Am I being judgmental? Are churches compromising more and more?
I was once blind but now I see Answering your questions: “No” and “Yes”. You are on the right track: pray, pray, and pray again for your congregation. God will hear your prayer. The church is His alone , the glory is His alone, so He won’t sit idly by and let people do as they please.
I wrote a comment above as I'm personally not comfortable with the idea that worship leaders are teachers. it's a hugely important role but I don't believe a worship leader can be held accountable for the church having correct theology. Really? If there was no teaching it would be possible to substitute worship songs for it? The first thing I always think when I hear worship lyrics that I'm unsure about is that if the teaching of a church is deficient then song lyrics can't make up for it, and vice versa. if the teaching is solid then short of some very bad lyrics the worship won't undermine that.
Steven Hulbert I’m not sure I agree with Piper on that either
It never occurred to me to construe that line as God being needy. I always took it to mean that he wanted to share his abundance because he is love and is generous.
My southern Baptist church changed the lyrics to “we couldn’t have heaven without you, so Jesus you brought heaven down”
The church I'm a part of changes the lyrics to "we couldn't reach haven without you, so Jesus you brought heaven down," which is similar to your tweak. :)
I'll use this as an excuse to post the words to my all time favourite below:
Praise to the Lord,
The Almighty, the king of creation!
O my soul, praise Him,
For He is thy health and salvation!
All ye who hear,
Now to His temple draw near;
Praise Him in glad adoration.
Praise to the Lord,
Who o’er all things so wondrously reigneth,
Shelters thee under His wings,
Jesu gently sustaineth!
Hast thou not seen
All that is needful hath been
Granted in what He ordaineth?
Praise to the Lord,
Who hath fearfully, wondrously, made thee;
Health hath vouchsafed
And, when heedlessly falling, hath stayed thee.
What need or grief
Ever hath failed of relief?
Wings of His mercy did shade thee.
Praise to the Lord,
Who doth prosper thy work and defend thee;
Surely His goodness
And mercy here daily attend thee.
Ponder anew
all the Almighty can do,
If with His love He befriend thee.
Praise to the Lord,
Who, when tempests their warfare are waging,
Who, when the elements
Madly around thee are raging,
Biddeth them cease,
Turneth their fury to peace,
Whirlwinds and waters assuaging.
Praise to the Lord,
Who, when darkness of sin is abounding,
Who, when iniquities triumph,
all virtue confounding,
Sheddeth His light,
Chaseth the horrors of night,
Saints with His mercies surrounding.
Praise to the Lord,
O let all that is in me adore Him!
All that hath life and breath,
Come now with praises before Him.
Let the Amen sound from His altar again,
Gladly for aye we adore Him.
_
Words: Joachim Neander, 1680. Originally penned in German as "Lobe Den Herren, Den mächtigen König der Ehren."
I've been praying for months for a resource to share with the worship team at my church, and finally it is here. Thank you! This is a great summation for what I know is going on in the church I attend.
may we take the praise and worship of you Lord as seriously as we should
All are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God.
He DIDN’T want Heaven without us. That’s why He chose us.
Yes!
While we were yet sinners Christ was Crucified for us Christ died for us.
The best thing about this podcast was to encourage us as believers to not quench the Holy Spirit. If we find something not right in what we are singing, watching, or listening to we mustn't just brush it aside, look into it and if it's a problem address it, if not then praise God. Like so many of you I liked so many lines in this song but that one always bothered me. It's OK to critically and fairly question even things produced for and by believers, it strengthens us all.
"like a rose trampled on the ground, you took the fall, and thought of me, above all..."
To me that says that Christ thought of me and my need to know God's love, grace and glory above all [of my sin], above all [of my betrayal to Him]. It is man who mistreated and betrayed Him throughout all time, not just in the Bible, and I believe that is what "like a rose trampled..." pertains to... However He takes the fall anyway, He alone suffers the consequences of all mankind's sin (took the fall) and washes us clean above [it] all. And I thank God that that is the case!
I NEVER once took it in the context that Pastor John mentioned here, and was shocked to hear when he brought that up.
I took "Above all" as a separate clause. That Jesus is Above all, because He went through the point of being "trampled like a rose" whereas NO ONE would or could, and yet thought of us sinners despite all those rejections.
I guess it really comes down to how one sees and perceives the context. I can also see Pastor John's perspective, and why he dislikes it. In that context, "you took the fall, and thought of me above all other things" does sound questionable. But as stated above, I never took it this way with there being a pause, and then saying "Above all." It just sounded like a separate clause and a way to rephrase the title of the song, with it being attributed to Jesus being Above All.
People should check out the song on youtube. It is a wonderful and Christ glorifying song, in my opinion one of the best in the last 20 years. What a beautiful name, what a wonderful name, what a powerful name. The amount of comments of people who have been encouraged, turned to the Lord, is amazing. Muslims who have felt something so as to turn to Christ. Seems great to me.
I sing songs to the Lord Jesus Christ to God.
I've always looked at it as saying he didn't want us to be lost in our sin. So he made the way, Jesus, for us to be with him. I've never felt that this song implies that the Lord is incomplete without us, but just that he loves us and wants to bring glory to his name through us. Jesus brought heaven down: as much as we can understand, we build the kingdom of God in what we do here, but it started with Christ the head. If we could not build the kingdom and have a part in the body here on earth, we wouldn't be here. Us as his children, and He as our king, is the kingdom here on earth. Jesus is the way. What a wonderful name! I hope you can worship in all you do.
The problem with many of today's 'worship songs' is that they come out of churches that do not teach sound doctrine, such as Hillsong & Bethel Church. Therefore, the composers don't know sound doctrine and will put in words or phrases that sound catchy or edgy.
Personally, some of my favorite worship songs are: AMAZING GRACE, HOW GREAT THOU ART, THERE IS A FOUNTAIN FILLED WITH BLOOD, THE HAVEN OF REST, IT IS WELL WITH MY SOUL and hundreds of others. Yes, I prefer the old hymns. You just can't hardly go wrong with those.
Can those timeless hymns be sung in mass auditoriums or only in old country side churches? Do you think the meaning of the lyrics can stay the same, while changing the atmosphere of the song or worship environment? If not, why not?
i'm kind of amused how some of these songs sound kind of similar to three days grace or something. I've kind of started (jokingly) telling people three days grace is a christian band
Thank you! People tend to brush off criticisms of worship sets thinking others are critiquing the performance. No, we’re critiquing the lyrics, the theology, which should be just as important and CORRECT as the sermon.
Pastor John is such a good instructor in how he approaches questions.
I wasnt going to post anything because there are already too many comments. And it's not like Pastor John will read this. Let me preface my comment by saying that I absolutely have the utmost respect for Pastor John and his ministry. I listen to Desiring God podcast every day. I also listen to his message through his sermon app. I also have a few books of his. To say that I am a John Piper fan is understatement. The guy rocks! However, I object to these episodes on contemporary music. (the other one being on Reckless Love) Clearly, if a song is sacrilegious, irreverent, or just dead wrong then the song needs to go away never to be sung again. But I literally witnessed God save two people during a WORSHIP night at my local church. This song was one of the songs we sang over and over. How do I know they were saved? Upon looking at my neighbors, I put my arm around one of them and said, "do you want to invite Jesus into your heart?" The man, sobbing like a baby, said, "yes". After the worship night was over, I walked with him to the front of the church where we prayed and discussed what happened with the pastor. There was also a woman next to me that was saved. We did the same thing - prayed, asked her if she wanted to invite Jesus into her heart and she said yes. Since that day, it's been a little more than a year, those two people's lives have been radically altered for good. They are COMPLETELY different people. They attend Bible study. They attend LifeGroups. They give of their time and money. It's amazing to watch transformation. I think people read way too much into these songs. When I listen to "What a Wonderful Name", I picture a loving God, not a bored God, who created these human beings, and noticing we were adrift, sent a Savior in His Son to save us from our sin to give us hope, life, and salvation. That's what I picture in this song; nothing sacrosanct. That's my two cents.
Amen brother. Good testimony. Well said. Millions have been touched by the song "What a beautiful name", and here are people questioning one ambiguous line from a song that is otherwise fantastic. Sad. Very sad.
I appreciate this so much. I'm so tired of the inane babble that makes up many of today's modern "worship" songs.
Collin Layman. Agreed....so much about us and instead of the Lord. There is probably 10 times more me and I in some modern songs than Him
But this particular song "What a beautiful name" does not contain inane babble, so lumping it with other modern songs is not fair. Each song should be judged on it's individual merit. I wonder if Pastor John has even listened to it. Giving him the most questionable line of the song, and putting the most negative interpretation on it and then asking him about the song is not fair. A bit like taking a video of you at your worst moment of anger and drawing a conclusion on your spiritual maturity from that one snapshot.
Why aren’t some able to develop the mental discipline to separate art (song) and literal scripture?
God isnt codependent, He is independent & yet He still loves us.
Perhaps the why is what we are glorying in?
Just last week i heard this song at church and was struggling through the exact same lines. This podcast was much needed. Thank you.
Kevin Hardy I think it would really help if Piper did a little research before making his comments. This article from one of the authors gives an explanation
hillsong.com/collected/blog/2017/05/scriptural-inspiration-behind-the-lyrics-of-what-a-beautiful-name/
@@ryanpmcp Pastor John is a Calvinist. As such, they’re extremely bible literal (black and white letter). Anything that doesn’t comply with the exact words isn’t okay with him. Notice that he doesn’t provide any context to the scripture. His logic is extremely not nuanced. He doesn’t go into counter arguments or anything. I wish Calvinist can separate art and theology, and recognize that they don’t always have to comply with scripture black and white for it to touch someone. They also need to realize most millennials, which these new songs normally catered to, don’t really want to go sings songs that say they’re worthless garbage.
Jesus came to preach Gospel to set us free to deliver us from sin.To forgive us of sin.To bring about grace and mercy.To teach us about Repentanc.To teach us to forgive.To teach us that his kingdom was not of this world.To teach us that you cant be saved unless you are born again from above.
Like Paul said not one is righteous but thank God we have forgiveness of our sins.
It's often difficult to understand text without context. It's for this reason why people have so much difficulty communicating by text message versus picking up a phone and talking to someone in person. People can usually exchange for clarity when talking on the phone. I'm saying this to build on the idea that arguments, such as "what does the author mean?" or "how should we interpret this song?", can often times be avoided if a worship leader performs the role of "leading" the congregation in worship. Ineffective worship leaders just sing the song, but capable worship leaders identify when songs sometimes need explanation. This does not mean there's anything wrong with a particular song. Ministers of music do not break down a song or drop to a downbeat and talk over songs just because that's what you see in concerts, they are helping guide the understanding of the congregation so it can gain the most spiritual edification from reciting the lyrics of worship songs.
I understand what Pastor John is saying if this line stood on its own. But it doesn’t. The next line expands on it and continues the thought by saying “my sin was great, your love was greater. What can separate us now?” In context, we couldn’t have heaven because of our sin. But Jesus didn’t leave us in that state but “brought heaven down”. In context it has nothing to do with God being lonely and is not implied in the song. When sung in context to the rest of the song, there shouldn’t be an issue with it. He didn’t leave us all destined to an eternity apart from Him (you didn’t want heaven without us) but while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (so Jesus, you brought heaven down). It’s good news. It’s the Gospel.
I understand perfectly what you're saying Bro.David. But wanted to highlight one particular statement that Pr.John mentioned as alluding to humanistic philosophy. God's love for us is the overflow of HIS fulness and not a compensation of HIS loneliness... Think that's the potential danger of those lyrics...
David Best - question, is there any scripture that you can give me where it indicates that Jesus brought heaven down to earth without going into the future that hasn’t happened yet?
Luke 17:20-21 King James Version (KJV)
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Matthew 4:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”[a]
Footnotes:
Matthew 4:17 Or the kingdom of heaven has come near
So yes, Jesus did in fact bring heaven down to earth when he came for his earthly ministry. So it is two fold; the kingdom of heaven is present in us now so we can show heaven to others, and it will be spread across the whole earth in the future.
Just listened to the podcast and I tend to agree with you. 'You didn't want heaven without us' - God didn't want to leave us in hell. 'So Jesus, you brought heaven down' - Jesus himself came down to die for us so we can be with him in heaven. Probably more accurate if song says the Father brought Jesus down as it was the Father who sent Jesus.
I don't see how the song implies that God is incomplete or lonely. Maybe someone could enlighten me.
@@thomcombes4689Jesus is Heaven.....and He came down for us ...peace
Thank you so much.
We’ll be singing this song at my church in Spanish. The lyric is translated to, ‘You traded heaven to save me (us). You came and recused me (us).’
“Dejaste el cielo por salvarme, me viniste a rescatar”
To dejar is to leave, not trade.
@@melaniejoy311well yeah true traded is intercambiar in Spanish
Yes. Our God is self sufficient.
I always took the line in “What a beautiful name” to mean he loved us so much he didn’t want to be without us so he created us and the garden of Eden. Then the next line says “our sin was great, your love was greater” which of course is the fall. Also in “Above All” the entire song states above what. It talks about all the wonders and treasures and wealth of the world and yet he died for us specifically. He died for ME. Everyone can say that same thing. It doesn’t mean he died for just me. It means he had each and every one of us specifically in mind.
I think you can find some fault in almost any song if you twist it the right way.
Absolutely brother. What a beautiful name is a great song.
I have had an issue with the lyrics from a Elevation Worship song for time as well. It says in the song “You have never failed me yet”, the word “yet” in the song, implies that it might happen, but God’s word says he will never fail us.
The Holy Spirit the from above born from above not by the will of our Blood are our flesh but by the will of God.Born from above.
amen and amen! Thank you so much!
You didn't want heaven without us... so Jesus, you brought heaven down.
Where in any of God's word does it mean that if humanity can't be in heaven, Jesus will not remain in heaven or want to remain on earth forever with sin, death and sinful man?
Praise God Pastor John and yes the entire team!! This is an 18 year old from India. Okay I was listening towards the end of the podcast, and yes it took to my notice, about the lyrics of the song 'Above All'.
"Like a rose, trampled on the ground, You took the fall and thought of me, Above all"
I just thought of asking you whether, can it be that above all refers to, God considering us above all the 'powers' that Satan said He would be given,(the time in the wilderness, when God was so much man and equally God!),above all the pain(be it physical,emotional..) he endured,the shame,the accusations, above the rejection from His own(Above all the things mentioned in the earlier verses of the song)... ??Above all these,(Unlike like,'above' His glory which is never the case nor is it that one of us is more important to Him than the others He saved, so that we can think that,above the rest of the humanity he thought of me) His desire(love) that the creations should join their Creator drove Him through it all that, so that we'll receive the right to His Kingdom!!! And yes this is truly because he amazingly delights in us and not that he can't live without us or something...
Please do consider this and do correct this young mind, that's open to corrections of any sort...
Much love, respect and prayers-Amy
The understanding that at the cross he was crucified and shed his Blood for forgiveness of our sins and entered in the Holy of Holies with his own Blood one time for all not to be repeated again with his own blood.
It is so obvious to older folks ( me) regarding lyrics. The world has entered the church.
The world has been in the church for a very very very long time. Satan infected the church through the world when the early church lost its way and became religious and the roman empire turned it into something it should never have been.
Then help us - please gently speak up! :)
The whole disconcerting thing about this type of music is that as a musician, it's not complex. My brain can shut off because it isn't being challenged. Enter sketchy lyrics. Hymns are great because the lyrics can be sound theology, and the music is engaging, not mere chanted mantra. Christians should never be mentally checked out during worship. Myself included. And when we do, we fail to worship God as He deserves, and we make ourselves oblivious to heresy in song lyrics. I'll be more vigilant from now on.
@@elliotthill7008 exactly. Or worse still, you sing it with a weak theology and believe something untrue about the character and nature of God.
Relient K > worship songs
Daniel Fourie
Jesus > anything in this world
“Don’t love the world or the things of the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 Jn.2:15
Rich Mullins... Switchfoot.... OLD newsboys..
I didn't catch that one, but I did catch "Evolving in pursuit of what you said" in 100 Billion X
"evolving" just means changing. Jesus changes us with his word.
@@TheShiningEnergy Bethel was talking about all creatures. Animals and humans evolving. The theory of evolution contradicts the bible.
@@GamingBeast727 ok, first of all, that song is by Hillsong, and second of all, "evolution" is not the same as "The theory of evolution"
The reason most (not all) Calvinists question this song is because of a low regard for Hillsong church in general which clouds their opinion of this particular song. They scroll through the lyrics to purposely find anyting questionable in order to write it off. But in this case, the song is great. Praise the Lord Jesus for a beautiful song about our Savior. So many people have been positively affected by this song, myself included.
I am not against Pastor John's comment but I think the first thing we should ask is, "What's in the heart of the composer?" or "What is the purpose of him/her writing the song?" second thing is the full context of the song, let us not be partial about it. I believe that every song written (Christian song) has a meaning and has scriptural inspiration. My advice to all the Worship Leader in the Church is to check the background (composer, meaning, etc.) of every song they will sing, if there is any doubt / question you have you can ask your Leaders or Pastors. Thank you.
Mattaniah Glorious great point! And if you watch the story about this song you’ll see that the writers were spending a lot of time in Colossians in particular. They aren’t just writing random words. I don’t love that line in what a beautiful name, but I think it’s a poetic choice that aims to capture that God desires to share the glory and joy He has in himself, with us His fallen creation, at great cost. There is plenty of good Resurrection themed content in this song too. I think people are missing the greater stuff in this song by focusing on one line that took some poetic license.
That being said, I do appreciate some of Pastor Johns guiding principles for sure and his reminder that worship leaders are teachers.
Jesus was sent down not because there was a void in heaven, but because the earth was void of a Savior, man needed a Savior to bear the weight of sin, the wrath of God was let out on Jesus, and that is what the Old Testament prophets prophesied, they prophesied a Savior coming to be ripped apart and tortured, for yet puny disgusting humans.
The same power of Blood is the same power.
That's why your past sins are forgiven and you must confess your present sins to be forgiven.
What makes a saint only the blood of Jesus Christ.
I don't really have a problem with the part "you didn't want Heaven w/out us" so much as "you brought Heaven down"
Nothing created by humans is perfect.... obviously some lyrics will miss the point or be misunderstood. Why? Because we are all FLAWED.
This took both the death and Resurrection of Jesus. Christ.
There are so many "modern" worship songs that are questionable. Franky, I miss the classic gospel hymns from the distant past. Those songs had some DEPTH.
Take for example any song asking for God's fire. That immediately reminds me of THIS passage...
Matthew 25:41 ESV - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
I'l take the _Living Water_ instead, thanks.
John 7:38-39 ESV - Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive...
The main purpose that God sent the Spirit down for Mother Mary to conceive The Christ child Jesus the Messiah was to bring about Salvation.
Wow, never thougt of the lyric that way. Now this feels like a reason why I messed up so badly singing it, perhaps was consumed with pride and too much enjoyment in the musical aspects without thinking deeply enough of spiritual meaning...
struggled w/ the same line!
When preaching / singing the truths of God, there is no room for "artistic interpretation". We must look solely at what His Holy Word says. Preach the text. The truth is, as laid out in scripture, God is perfect and complete in Himself and lacks nothing. Does he care for us and desire that we are in heaven with Him? Of course. Does he NEED us there to the point that he doesn't want heaven without us? Absolutely not. For our church, we chose not to sing the song on the basis of this one line alone. There are simply too many other great songs to choose from.
Pastor, I guess that's what you understand but as I sing that part of the verse, I am reminded of 2 Peter 3:9 and John 3:16. Nothing about God's misery or loneliness or deficiency was mentioned.
But it's true that it could be dangerous to the interpretation of others. However, when it is sung, I believe it should be explained. Or else better not have it at all.
Janelle Reloj good point.
Hi janelle, I think the point is that the Bible doesn’t mention God’s misery or loneliness or deficiency but the lyrics in the song “can” be interpreted that way. Near the end of the podcast Piper says that God does things not because he lacks anything but because it’s an overflow of his love and delight for the world and “not a compensation for it”. There are more reasons to my stance such as the meaning of “so” being used differently in the song and in John 3:16 along with other points mentioned by Piper in choosing lyrically strong songs so that the congregation is not misled in any way. In my mind I think “why feed the church a can of tuna when you have access to fresh fish”. Apologies if that analogy is hard to understand but if you have the best to give, why give them the second best or third best and so on.
I'll start by stating my view of worship which may or may not be flawed (just so y'all understand where i am coming from) MY VIEW...worship is primarily for God. Its one of those instances where we"minister" to him (2 chron 29:11ESV) and yes we as the church are also ministered to(encouraged, edified etc) in the process but mainly, worship from my understanding is mainly abt God (he knows exactly what the authors are trying to communicate) we on the other hand are prone to reading into things and misunderstanding. So what has helped me with texts I wasn't clear on has been trying to find the authors intent or the inspiration behind the song thru interviews and the like. If that still doesn't set your mind at ease,then just don't sing the song. I wld have to disagree with pastor John's assertion that this song is one of those songs which is "man centered" and that is an opinion I made after listening to the song and the story and intent behind it. Of course songwriters too can miss the mark in writing worship music, I however do not think that was the case here.
I mostly listen to Shane and Shane Psalms album I and II ... Because it's biblical... lol and even that scares me cause of the New Age Kundalini channeling that Hill Song and Jesus Culture have been accused of using... 😢
Praise Be To YAH and His SON
what's the scripture reference for a Kundalini spirit? That's not me justifying any churches behaviour, I'm merely outlining a concern I have with those who say they are all about reading God's word faithfully, yet believe conspiracy theories about 'Kundalini' spirits without any biblical mention and second thought. Should we be impulsive in disregarding what could be a great work of God?
@@streplay the kundalini spirit is the false spirit that people try to attribute as God, but is actually a demon. It's name might not be mentioned in Scripture, but if it doesn't lead the person to produce the Fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22), then it's most certainly NOT from God!
@@streplay Could you please talk about where in the Bible is the kundalini spirit? My Sister is into this and it makes no Biblical sense. I don't recall Jesus and His disciples doing this.
Washed in the Blood only makes righteousness.Forgiven of sins.
I find that quite a bit of Christian music today is not that good theologically. It might sound good and be catchy, but the words are either not biblical or they just aren't very enriching and life giving or the words are just slightly off, but that line can make people stumble. Music is tricky. It has a huge power to influence us in deep ways. It can affect us in so many ways, for good or for bad. We have to be careful with music because of it's great power. Our words by themselves can be very powerful, but add music behind them and they can do a lot. Worship leaders should be very careful with what music they have the church singing. One thing that kind of bugs me about some churches, including mine (not to attack any churches), is that some songs say something like "we lift our hands..." and nobody is raising they're hands. It's not that the line is bad, but why are we singing that when nobody is raising their hands (except this one guy at my church and my mom). I personally don't raise my hands in church, but sometimes I have done it singing alone. Also, even if half of the church raises their hands, I would feel strange about it because a lot of people aren't doing what they're singing. I usually just don't sing those parts or change it to "lift my voice" or something similar. Anyways, that's just my thoughts. I am glad to hear that this worship leader is looking closely at the songs his church sings.
David William A. You’ve made some good points, however with this song in particular I think if you watched the story behind this song you’d see how clearly the writers rely on scripture for content. Colossians is one book that comes to mind.
This was helpful.
I interpreted the lyrics "thought of us above all" to mean that Jesus put our salvation "above" his sacrifice of leaving heaven to suffer and die in our place. Contemporary music is like reading a modern Christian fiction book (maybe Veggie Tales). The old hymns and the Psalter are like reading Pilgrim's Progress.
The many non Christian's are everywhere.
I've always found this line of this song interesting. It got the same initial knee jerk reaction from me as it has given so many others, BUT consider this... God determined from eternity past those who would be saved by His precious Son Jesus Christ. It was His good pleasure to do so. He was also fully capable of accomplishing this work. So which is a truer statement... God wanted us (the elect) to be in heaven where He has created a place for us, and did this through His omnipotence, sovereignty and omniscience in eternity past, OR, He didn't want heaven without those whom He predestined?? In my mind there is more to question in the following lyric, "So, Jesus, You brought heaven down." Now there's a subjective (although not harmful) line with poetic freedom taken. In short, the lyric mostly in question here ("You didn't want heaven without us...") does not seem to assault the aseity of God, but instead affirms what every Calvinist believes, however, it does so with a negative statement. Perhaps we lack imagination sometimes?
God didn't/doesn't determine who will be saved, that is up to us through faith. He did/does have foreknowledge of those who will be saved. It is not His will any be lost but that all come to repentance which contradicts Him picking and choosing ppl to save.
@@johnanthony9225 thank you for that. I'm a new Christian and hadn't quite grasped that point; I was feeling happy God picked me and wishing I knew if he had picked some of my still-atheist friends. But after reflecting on your comment it seems that our choice to believe, repent, and obey is the key to accepting the salvation God wants us to have. This foreknowledge vs predetermination issue is a hard one!
Jennifer Thomas Exactly. He beckons us to come. Rev 22:17. He doesn’t predestine anyone to heaven or hell but bids all of us to come take from His hand freely.
Hi pastor John, would you be able to recommend some worship songs? What are some of your favourite worship songs?
Bear Hug I'm not pastor John, but for modern music with both sound theology and musical excellence, check out Sovereign Grace Music, Stuart Townend, and the Getty's.
Bear Hug I am also not pastor John :)), but Ascend The Hill is one of my favorites, as is Rivers and Robot, Gungor, and All Sons and Daughters. They all do Christ centered, beautiful, contemporary music.
Shane and Shane
Love all of those & would love to hear more of their music sung congregationally!
A mighty fortress is our God.
Rock of ages hymn (norton hall band).
Thank you Pastor John! "You died for me the ultimate sacrifice, for me whom you had never seen" . This verse is from "Jesus Saves". This is not biblical.
What about Bible passages that make people question or raise some flag? Should we stop quoting scriptures that make people uncomfortable because they don’t like it or might not understand it at first? People can easily misinterpret scripture. But we don’t stop using scriptures that may be read the wrong way. In fact a lot of times we do have to explain them. So “If anyone even questions it it shouldn’t be sung” seems like and logic. If someone in the congregation doesn’t get it, then it should be explained to them. It’s simple. We’d do the same for any other passage misunderstood at first glance
Amen!
I dont understand the contaversy over this line. It makes sense to me as a summary of the redemptive story of the Bible. Jesus bringing is a poetic reference to Rev 21. God not want heaven without us is poetic reference to God's plan to redeem a people for himself which culminated at the cross. The ideas about God being lonely or being dependent on us are heresies in Christianity today, but I dont think this particular lyric is heretical.
That's what I thought too🤔
I thought it was poetic about Rev 21 and redemptive love of Christ 🤷🏻♀️
God freely chose to create. He also freely chose to save. He was under no obligation to do either. Psalm 8 is interesting. David is most concerned with the glory of God. Yet, as he describes God's glory he does so by referencing God's creation. David marvels over the fact that though man is so small and insignificant, God is mindful of him (Ps. 8:4-5). We also know that God created man in his own image. My point is that too often, we overreact in our fear that we might rob God of His glory by highlighting His special relationship with man. Why did God choose to save? He chose to save because He loved the world (John 3:16). How then can anyone assert that God doesn't want His people in heaven? God doesn't need us, yet He wants us. I believe that is a healthy tension that is Biblical.
And the main purpose for him to go back to heaven was to bring the Holy Spirit.
Pastor John.. I guess the song "Above All" categorically states that you are above all wisdom, wealth, kingdoms, powers, all creations on Earth... Is my understanding correct... Pls clarify... Thanks.
Jesus had to teach that it took his death to forgive our sins and that he was the way the truth the life the resurrection.That he had to go back to the Father are the Spirit would not come the Holy Spirit.
This also that he forgave sins while on earth as in heaven.
My idea is that
Even lukewarm Christians can write good lyrics, it just depends
I mean, how do I say this, going to church does NOT make you a Christian, you need to be conflicted by God, and read to bible and understand it, and question things better
And yeah, sure God is good but lukewarms don't ever know or say why.
You should watch more Francis Chan to know more about lukewarm Christian, love what he says
Learn to separate song and scripture. Those two don’t always have to go hand in hand necessarily, and then when one fails, people draw an huge inference that the entire church of which the writer belongs to, or that the writer’s identity is then proved false, because their song isn’t black and white in line w. Scripture, as it takes into account a multitude of non-scripture, theology analyzes to write a song.
good
I thought I was the only one
in particular i think some of Jason Upton's lyrics are questionable
This is what happens when people write songs to sign a music label and not to worship God. Olden days most of the songs came out of inspiration by the Holy Spirit... And they were in tandem with the theology.. sadly today it is all about swaying the crowd and signing new music label and for the purpose of "worship tour". Not for the congregational singing...
*Some good contemporary songs*
Different by Micah Tyler
Though you slay me by Shane and Shane
Clear the stage by Jimmy Needham
this would is not haven--- and we still do not live like we will in his haven.
Is there even any scripture in the Bible that indicates (without looking to the future) that Jesus has brought heaven down to earth. Wouldn’t the earth be perfected if heaven were here? Jesus didn’t even end sin here on earth while he was here... the lyric just doesn’t hold water if you ask me.
I know the songwriter personally who penned the line you referenced. He is a humble, Christ follower who would never, I'm sure, disparage the ministry of a Christian brother the way you have. So sad.
Let's not exaggerate what was said into something it wasn't. Remember a humble person can handle criticism without getting offended.
James Evers The author did not respond. I did. I am not offended, I am saddened.
He didn't disparage anyone's ministry. He just commented on a lyric.
@@stevenhulbert6973 He commented disparagingly. I love John Piper, and his ministry, but in this case he has got it wrong. It's a great song.
@@janineholley7980 Truth matters to God. Your words matter. There is a difference between "disparaging" a ministry and correcting false statements about God in somebody's lyrics. Be offended and saddened all you want. Truth matters to God.
as usual, Piper finds something to critique....why don't we open the hymnal and start there...The First Noel for instance....geez.
I don't know if you guys at Desirig God read the comment section, but how does one, like John Piper, have this stance on worship but still speak on a pulpit and a stage where these songs have been sung? Such as Passion Conference. Just wondering, as a pastor myself I would like to know how far we go to manage such things.
Max Park I'm sure that Pastor Piper would rarely turn down an opportunity to preach the truth to a group of probably mostly unregenerate Christians. I think it is wise for him to preach at such churches, they NEED THE REAL GOSPEL. I'm sure in those instances he is there to spread the gospel not to criticize their music even if it or their other teachings are heretical.
In the podast episode that deals w/Bethel Music's "Reckless Love", he says that he considers such lyrics as "poetic license". He also says that if a person isn't comfortable with singing such lines & doesn't want to, then don't!
In one place he corrected the Above all songs which was sung before his sermon... You can see that in one of the UA-cam videos
The problem is these songs are catchy. You can tell when song writers, producers and singers do not spend quality time with God.
Nechole777 oooooo preach
Nechole777 that’s a terribly judgemental accusation. I think there is good evidence that the writers of these songs do spend time with God and the scriptures. It’s one thing to think that it wasn’t the best lyric, it’s another to say that the person doesn’t have a strong relationship with God. Can you say that everything you’ve ever said or done was perfect? Of course not, but does that mean I should say you don’t spend time with God?
In this case though I think the song "What a beautiful name" is one of the best worship songs in the last 20 years.
but doesnt He want to show his glory because he loves us? im confused about that, because i remember listening to pastor John say God is not ego maniac he is after his own Glory because its the most loving thing to do
Yes and no. He shows his glory by loving us, by dying while we were yet sinners. It is quite literally impossible to examine God this way because He is the measure of love. That is why the Bible can say "God is love" because he is the bar, he is the standard. We cannot say ____ is the most loving thing God can do because whatever he does is automatically the most loving and just thing. God's couldn't be a ego maniac because he really is as great as he is, he is worthy of everything. His infinite glory is revealed in us and by his transforming work in the believer and his love and glory is shown even in his casting the wicked along with Satan and all his followers into hell. He is not earning glory, he is already infinitely glorified, his glory is simply being revealed.
agree
but still so God isnt doing anything actively He is Just being?
i can get that, but doesnt he have a goal or is Just God being God and everything we have to say about it is just deemly viewed human trying to understand what he is seeing
Or is God actively wanting to Show his Glory, not adding to it but rather to show it,
there are two question that come behind it: 1) Why? 2) to who?
Why is more important
but there is also the possibility that God is just being God and Glory automatically is following Him, but its not like He is looking to show his Glory
For the most part an answer to the question would be mere speculation. However there are actually a few verses to start with
Ephesians 1:5, 1:9, 1:17-19 these are just a couple highlight verses but honestly the entire chapter and book shows it is God's will for us to be reconciled with him grow in the knowledge of him.
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
The who is us and probably all creation including the angels and heavenly beings and perhaps even Satan and his followers.
As for why, that is a most profound question, but in my opinion it all goes back to "God is love" it simply is in his nature, he has many other attributes for I would define glory as:
someone’s or something’s apparent (by observation or knowledge) merit or worth based on their qualities/traits and/or accomplishments/abilities and to a further degree when speaking of God the unveiling of His excellence and preeminence
Clearly from scripture God wants and does everything so he is glorified(of shown to be glorious) and his love is part that for his glory is shown in who he is and all he does.
Thanks! i guess there is still quite a bit of mystery in my mind about the deep truths of God
but thats pretty normal, may God bless you, and thank you for taking the time to write down the bible verses!
Could "above all" be taking the place of a name of God? Like "you took the fall and thought of me, Father?"
So the verse in question is "You didn't want heaven without us , so Jesus You brought heaven down."
So how I see it is:
He didn't want heaven without us. John 14:2-3 --> In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, so that where I am you may be also.
So He wants us be with Him in Heaven.
&
When Jesus came down to earth he brought down heaven. Meaning he brought the Word, & His sacrifice so that we can enter heaven.
Why complicate things, if this song isn't biblical (FACE SLAP), and you think that if you sing it you are worshipping satan, then ..........................
Have to disagree with Pastor John on this particular song. Not only do I think that's not the interpretation that was intended, it's feels like a bit of a stretch to interpret it that way. At least that's what it looks like to me. I think it's a magnificent song praising the power of Jesus's name.
Am I the only one who thinks "Holy Spirit" by Francesca Batistelli implies that the Spirit can leave believers? That's a very dangerous and unbiblical message for Christians, particularly new ones.
The Full Story with James Tulp I feel like it's meant to be more about surrendering yourself before God and letting Him move you. But I can see how someone who maybe has little knowledge of christian theology could be confused.
The Full Story with James Tulp the holy spirit can leave believers. Do you read the Bible? You can lose your salvation.
Jessica Rosas Scripture
How is His leaving us dangerous and unbiblical, bro?
@@JessVarano2 do you because that’s completely wrong
That lyric seems to contradict the aseity of God in my mind.
Wow! These guys Inc Pastor John sound very convincing re the argument for when worship lyrics miss the mark, but seriously, on the other hand, rightly or wrongly, I can't help thinking, with all due respect, isn't this just petty? Knit picking at what I personally feel, ( & millions of others) at a beautiful, Holy Spirit led, anointed, trust from the heart of a born again Christian worship song; just because of 1 or 2 lines in it might come across suspect theologically? Just because it says "You didn't want heaven without us", I don't see why people have to interpret it as saying God would have been sad without us. How I look at it is it was God's intention/ plan to come down & save his chosen ones. However, I'm sure there are probably worship songs, new & old that miss the mark, but I do question whether people have gone a bit too far analysing, so therefore end up becoming legalistic.
Katie Dorey on point bro, the critics being too petty. If they truly did study the entire ministry of Jesus Christ. He did brought Heaven down.
I mean like what was that that happened on the Mountain of Transfiguration? Where the Glory of God Cloud showed up and the Father spoke from the cloud saying This is My Beloved Son, hear Him.
What was raising a dead Lazarus who was dead for a few days?
What was turning water into the best wine at a wedding in Cana?
What was Jesus performing a miracle in front of those religious Pharisee Critics where Jesus told the man with a withered hand, to stretch it out and it became normal?
What was that when Jesus Christ multiplied food, bread and fish to feed 5,000 people. Plus with leftovers.
And many other great works.
If that wasn't Heaven, then these critics have a serious misunderstanding of Heaven.
Here's a hint to help critics understand, there is No Food Shortages, No Sickness, No death etc, in Heaven.
Duh!
Critics trying to look like them 5 virgins without oil?
Or trying to be like the Pharisees who don't really care about the real issues, the people's problems/issues, or the believers. The believers who are literally praising the Lord with this song. (Actual good fruit)
Oh yeah, them Pharisees critics in bible criticize when the people and children were holding up palm leaves saying Hosanna in the Highest. Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.
Petty surface level Critics are nothing new under the shining Sun. They have the rewards of criticizing.
I hear your point, but then would ask where the focus is. Who are we worshiping? If it's not about us and it is about Him, then we need to listen to what He has shared with us and who He says that He is and carefully work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Words matter. Specifically, His Word matters of the utmost priority. If we change just a little bit, the next generation will change just a little bit...and on it goes. The Enemy of our Soul is deceptive. It is not about the heart of a person, or our feelings, it is about the Word of God, which does not change. Personally, I feel that the current trend in Worship is very me-centric, shallow and empty of foundational doctrine. It's overly simplistic and repetitive...shall I repeat that for effect? lol Either way, it's good that these conversations are out there - many have cautions about current lyrics, but don't have a forum to share...and/or be heard. God bless you as we continue to pursue Him!
The Bible says to "study to show ourselves approved, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Paul told others to reference what he said to Old Testament scriptures. Then we are told to try the spirits. So if we are told to study the Word of God, flesh out every meaning, then test peoples spirits against what the Spirit of God is saying, wouldn't it just make sense to analyse what those who preach, teach and sing to us are saying? We are each responsible for our own faith, no holy man dicates to us anymore, each person has to take it on for themselves, and it's not wrong to disagree with a pastor, a teaching, a book or a song. Matters of doctrine are hardly petty. Everyone wants to throw around the term "legalistic". It's not legalistic to call out heresies. Legalistic, in a religious sense, is term pertaining to the Old Testament laws, to use it correctly, you have to present a case that the questioning is based on a dispute with some church law. Discussing things of doctrinal significance is hardly legalistic, it is in fact, the basis of the New Testament. Jesus came and corrected poor doctrine. And it seems Pastor John was very diplomatic. If it bothers you, then don't sing it, but if your conscious is clear, than be free. As the Bible says, Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. You eat, I don't, I don't despise you, but I love you in Christ, and He will work out the difference. May His Spirit guide you always.
I'm not sure it's right to apply the scripture about teachers being judged more harshly to worship leaders. I don't think they are teachers and I can't imagine that singing someone else's song to a congregation would be viewed by God as comparable to expressing your own views. Perhaps you could apply this to worship song writers but even then I don't think worship lyrics are quite comparable to teaching because of the poetic licence involved. A teacher wouldn't feel the need to describe Jesus as a rose trampled on the ground but a lyricist might use that kind of image. I'm not sure you can compare the two and how they will be judged.
Has the poster ever tried to write an album worth of theologically perfect songs? It's practically impossible. Maybe we should just sing "it is well with my soul" non stop, forever.
There is an entire book of songs in the Bible. The book of Psalms. Sing the Bible!!
Eh, no, it's not even close to impossible.
You Need to Seek and Know Jesus For YOURSELF! And stop listening to the Clowns in church and on UA-cam regurgitate Opinions based on Opinions of Others!