I actually have a theory. When the new Henry was built, they took off the old smokebox from the old engine. Henry's face and smoke box were put onto his new body and he left Crewe. It took weeks to prepare a new smokebox. They fitted the smokebox at the end of the day after a BR tank engine has been worked on all day. The workmen go home and the tank engine is sleeping next to the faceless locomotive. You'll get the next part if you've seen the Stories of Sodor. In the morning the first workman arrives and steams up the engine for his test run. When he lights the fire, he hears a yawn. He goes to the front of Henry's old body, and there's and identical face to Henry's. The tank engine wakes up and soon more astonished workmen arrive. They didn't know what to do with the new Henry. The new Henry had the same personality as the old Henry, but didn't retain the memories. The tank engine heard the workmen talking about what to do with the engine and asked if he could work for BR. He worked for BR then on.
Video idea: Ik it’s not much but I was wondering how long did 87546,98462,eagle,and Allen greedy (aka the red engine in edwards day out)stay on the railway and what did they do to get sent away? All Awdry said was that they were naughty and were sent away but I really wanna know why.
I like to think that this theory is wrong, because not only 1. Henry remembers everything before his rebuild, and 2. Rebuilds like this have been done before; but mostly because, it's honestly terrifying thinking that the first Henry was cannibalized for parts and left to rust as another Henry replaced him, with the other engines being blissfully unaware that Henry II is not the same engine they've come to love, that's some creepypasta fuel right there
Not only have rebuilds like that have been done before, there have been entire classes of locomotives that came from combining pieces from other locomotive classes. A good example of this is the GWR 3200 Class, a.k.a. the Earl Class, which consisted of Duke Class boilers being placed on Bulldog Class frames. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_3200_Class)
@@Boypogikami132 Okay, so the Dukedog was a Duke class boiler on Bulldog chassis. One thing I noticed straight away was the cab design, it needed to be changed in order to accommodate the new boiler / firebox configuration, more the focus on the windows. The Dukedog recycled the cab from the bulldog instead of the duke because that was a thing.
It's also worth noting that in the TV series version of "Percy Takes The Plunge" after being teased by Percy; Henry says to himself *"No one ever lets me forget the time I wouldn't come out of the tunnel incase the rain spoilt my paint"* showing he was annoyed by Percy's singing as he knew exactly what the song was about. The theory is very interesting but Henry does indeed have memories stretching back to before his rebuild both in the RWS and in the case of some TV series exclusive lines. Of course the TV series Henry has a much simpler visual change than the RWS version. Though that can be attributed to budget reasons for the tv series. They made him so they could readily change his look without drastic alterations.
I think that there are two henrys however we only see one as Henry 2 is a replica to commemorate his derailment with the flying kipper (and the gaurd that would have definitely been crushed in the crash) sent to a railway in Wales where he gets Welsh coal and is on a heritage site.
@@datguymillerI don't think it's possible to rebuild an engine based on a design that was chucked away by the original designer though. It's also impossible for an engine to recall memories that never occurred to them.
My guess is, the smokebox is what houses the engine's "brain" and life. I mean, there has been moments where an engine has needed a new boiler, or tubes. If that's the case, then none of them are the originals. What I'm guessing is they somehow knocked Henry 1 out, removed his smokebox from the failed body, and attached it to a new Black Five body. I mean, he was only at Crewe for a few months, so it would be enough time to do that, trial him to make sure everything is proper, get his boiler cert, and ship him back to Sodor. Also, I'd love to see you do one about BoCo, as his real life number was scrapped in the 1960s. I've seen a theory that the reason BoCo vanished from the show was because, like his real life number, met the end of his life at the cutter's torch.
@@Boypogikami132 Boco appears in the book “Thomas and his friends” which was the last book that Christopher Awdry wrote. So it not he disappeared, he just isn’t shown as much. Besides, he’s owned by the NWR. British Rail wouldn’t have any say in whether or not to scrap him.
@@MachRacer4 Yeah and even so, BR didnt even really fully acknowledge the North Western region as an actual region on their network on maps and whatnot. BR didnt like the non-standard paint liveries and all.
I personally think it’s false because of his memories and when Awdry said Henry 1 and Henry 2 he was probably saying rebuilt so heavily almost nothing was left
almost nothing was left? Wouldn't that bring up somewhat of a ship of theseus problem? Is it really the same engine with a radical rebuild instead of another engine with some old parts?
Locomotives are generally deemed scrapped on the date of the cutting of their frames, thus a near total rebuild that retains the frame should still qualify as the same locomotive \m/
The GWR 4-6-2 "The Great Bear" was rebuilt into a 4-6-0 "star class" in the early/mid 1920s though there wasnt much left of the original 4-6-2 left in the new "Star class" 4-6-0
I was looking for this comment, “the great bear” was a design that was flawed and was under powered, it was still used heavily but needed repairs and was basically rebuilt from the frame up, new cab, boiler etc. except the number plate and smoke box was reused, so it’s essentially the Henry story in real life!
That was all done by the same railway though. I believe the gwr used standard parts so it’s not that unbelievable that any of their engines were rebuilt from/based on old designs
Personally, one of the reasons I don't think this theory is true is that it doesn't make sense from a narrative standpoint. Henry being rebuilt as a new and improved engine is a much more satisfying conclusion to this character arc than him being replaced after finally proving his worth because of an accident he had no control over.
You sir killed it with all of this, and i've always believed there was only one henry, but there is a story to back up that fact, and it comes from the US railroad called Santa Fe. The Santa Fe had made around 10 new articulated steam locomotive that were 2-10-10-2! big thumpers or the 3000 classes as they are actually known for. These big boys were not good steamers, like henry, had a hard time keeping steam or even moving around yards or pulling a full 100 car. So the Santa Fe were faced with a choice, scrap them all and get the money back, OR something smarter, cut the engines in two and rebuild them into 2-10-2 Baldwin-built locomotives. At the time people said they were wasting money or even it wasn't possible, but after 2 weeks in service they had already done twice the work and performance as there old buildes, and they had got MORE locos for free and cheaper. The rebuilds surive all the way up till the end of steam, and in some of the vids of commcerials for Santa Fe in the past, you see the special 2-10-2s working hard like crazy, even pulling diseals like Henery did for spamcan. The rebuits got new numbers, none were 3000s, instead they went to 4000. So techinally like Henry 1 and Henry 2. Henry 2 is still Henry 1, but to help the workers at Crewe and others who were working on Henry, they had gotten to the point were his old shape was literally lost and he got a new one. PLus it was pretty normal for the big 4 to take old parts of good locos to make them better on new engine bodies. But here's a thought I just came up with right now, what if the flying kipper crash never happened and Henry was still sent away, you know what henry would have been turned into? A LNER V2 or A2 like gordon or an atlantic, but a Super atlantic, so pretty much he was going to get rebuilded, but after the crash, Crewe offered to help Sir topham out for a cheaper offer then the LNER, and to also get a more public apperance that the LNER cost to much to do anything while the LMS is cheaper and willing to do the same or even better, but for cheaper prices.
It is my belief that there are two Henrys, but only one character. That is to say, the rebuild was extensive enough that Henry II was a new engine, but his core and thus mind remained, whereas what was left of his pre-rebuild shape was a faceless husk that inevitably got scrapped.
Personally, I feel its the same engine and agree with you. The Flying Scotsman is a prime example of a rebuild. Flying Scotsman started life as an A1, was later rebuilt into an A3.
Henry One refers to the original design. Henry Two refers to the rebuild. When you rebuild a steam engine, it will be a new version. That is what Awdry meant by One and Two I believe.
I’d like to also add to the discussion with this. Skarloey and Rheneas were also rebuilt. Both were given cabs and Skarloey was given a set of trailing wheels yet nobody questions whether they’re still the same engine. Also, Edward is said to be a ‘heavily modified’ K2 and yet again, nobody questions whether he’s still Edward. Just my two cents to the discussion
Personally I think the theory is false . In the ios book when “ henry 1 and Henry 2” was stated i feel like awdry only stated henry in that way is because like you said the engine is fully rebuild to the point where there’s barely anything left of the original. And while the rebuild maybe impossible then how would henry remember all of those memories before the rebuild.
Henry II could’ve possibly been brainwashed or tricked he was the original, there were was the crew could do this, one example could be them tricking him that he has ashma, Henry II could’ve been told Henry I’s entire life & eventually been brainwashed
The debates in realism aside, thinking of the message trying to be put across to kids, it makes way more sense that it’s only one Henry narratively. If there are two Henry’s then the message being put across is that if you’re not good enough, you’ll be replaced whereas the message with one Henry, is one of overcoming obstacles.
And in some cases, that is considered a "rebuild." I think I remember hearing/reading about the LMS Royal Scots. When they were rebuilt, I think the cab and some of the frames were the only parts original to the locomotives. At that point, wouldn't one consider them entirely new engines in their own right, as opposed to "rebuilt?"
Very interesting video and brings up some interesting points to consider, especially with the Claughtons being rebuilt into Patriots. Personally I believe the Two Henry’s theory could hold some water and I have a plausible idea on how Henry is the same entity but in a different body. What I think happened was that Henry 1 was completely taken apart and melted down, essentially scrapped, but the molten metal was recast into Black 5 parts and reassembled as a Black 5. This way his consciousness was carried on from the old body into the new one, so he retains his memory and personality in a completely different body. May sound a bit morbid but that just seems the most logical and economical explanation to me. What are your guy’s thoughts?
Honestly, I've always believed in the "Rebuilt" Henry version, not only because that's what the show went with (I did watch the show growing up), but because (like you said) rebuilds like that have occurred before. Plus, the Rev. W. Audrey did base most (if not all) of his Railway Series stories on actual events. Shoot, the Earl Class (GWR 3200 Class) was made by taking the boilers from Duke Classes, and mounting them onto the frames of Bulldog Classes.
When you rebuild an engine some parts like the place where henrys where has the whistle plus some other parts were taken off those parts were scrapped while henry was waiting for his new part's
i realized how realistically a rebuild could have happened in one of the chris awdry books it says Henrys smoekbox was being cleaned out meaning it would open and is removeable his face is just the smokebox door so they made an entirely new engine but slapped henrys smokebox door/face onto the Black 5 loco and/or made the smokebox specially to fit the smokebox which is how he still remembers everything 2 henrys theory is now partially correct cause it was a new engine body with the original smokebox
I personally believe there is only one Henry. I find it impossible that new engine was given Henry’s name and knew everything that happened on Sodor before the crash with the Flying Kipper, it just doesn’t possible to me. Also, I like to think that perhaps people at Crewe removed Henry’s smokebox and fitted it to the body of a Black 5, or removed his boiler from his wheels and making look like a Black 5 boiler.
Could be that the building of a new locomotive was disguised as a rebuild for financial reasons, the financial side of the railway might not be willing to green light a new locomotive (would be seen as a big capital expense) but a rebuild would look like a cheaper option. Possibly with just the frames (cut and remachined) and smoke box reused.
@@RJSRdg well technically speaking the frames are the part that the identity of the loco is attached to for paper work reasons so as long as most of the frame is still there then technically its the same loco
what a fascinating rabbit hole i find myself down this time... didn't realize that there was this much... lore conjecture and fandom interaction around thomas the tank engine, tis a wonderful thing to learn!
Personally I think he's the same engine. As somebody else has said. Henry I and Henry II could just be classifications. In the same way LNER A1's all became A3's. I get that we dont really know what makes a engine and engine with Thomas. (Like. What can be removed for it to, well... die.) But I recon as long as basically. 'The Head' is the same then the engine is the same.
It should be. The wheels, cylinders, boiler...etc. Would all go from gnr/lner to lms. And rival companies don’t use the same parts Even his cab is different
@@Lamp_2155 And? They use the same system, steam. Likely any parts that weren't straight compatible a quick adapter could be whipped up. It's only steal, it can be changed. Though you've a point. Crewe as a point of pride might have wanted to replace most of the components with their own, which would be why he got such an extensive rebuild.
@@NirateGoel I thought that too much would be changed to be realistic If his parts are modified then he isn’t really an authentic black 5 The modified austerity that became tender engine “Douglas”, as far as I know, is practically the same but with a different fuel storage and capacity The LNER reclassified engines to new classes that underwent less than Henry did. Rebuilds like the a2/2 look similar to the other rebuilds but are still different classes because they were rebuild not built from scratch
Massive rebuilding was common practice - look up LMS 6399 Fury as an example - it was rebuilt as 6170 British Legion. Almost an entirely new engine design going from a high pressure water tube boiler to a low pressure fire tube boiler.
Henry remembers everything before his rebuild, so he can't be a replacement. I also just watched a video about the E2's and how they had flaws but if they had maybe a few things corrrected, they could have been fine and not gotten a bad reputation. Why Henery is listed as Henry one and Henry two in the World of Sodor , the way I interpret it is because Henry had undergone a massive reconstruction and change in apperance, its not unlike the way that Doctor Who regenerates and different incarnations are numbered, the first Doctor, Second Doctor etc. Whilst it's literally more nuts and bolts in Henrys case, enough of the ORIGINAL Henry, wherever an engines mind and soul resides (The Rev being a spiritual man) was retained. Henry is still Henry and his ailments have been corrected by reconstructive 'surgery'. Like James wooden brakes, the engines on the Island of Sodor have all had repairs and upgrades, I doubt many of them even match the stock configurationof when they left the Railyards they were built in. And thats to be expected especially over such an extended period of service life.
theres another rebuild that i know about. gwr 9351, which i have actually been pulled by, was actually a 51xx at one point. it shows that rebuilds like what henry went through are possible
Henry's memories were possibly reserved by having his face put onto w completely different engine as possibly preserving his mind could allow him to be transferred either only face or with the boiler being placed onto a different chassis as I agree and disagree with the theory but I think that either his face or entire boiler was put onto a different chassis making him so different but remembering everything before his rebuild
My conclusion is that Sir Topham Hatt I orchestrated the Flying Kipper Incident of 1935, as a way of committing insurance fraud. That's why he had the funds to rebuild Henry so quickly.
There were never two Henrys, there was always just only one Henry. Because the old shape Henry was never scrapped, he was just rebuilt with a new shape. So the old Henry was never replaced by the new Henry, the new Henry was the old Henry. It's just that he was just rebuilt.
I personally am in the belief that there’s only one Henry. The reason behind this feeling is down to the fact that extensive rebuilding of locomotives has been done for example; the LNER P1’s, P2’s, SR bullied Pacifics, GWR’s Great Bear and the LMS claughtons. These locomotives looks substantially different post rebuilding. But I believe the best candidate for this and I’m surprised that I haven’t seen it in the comments yet, would be Gresley A1 later Thompson A1/1- 1470 later 4470 then 60113 ‘Great Northern’. Her rebuilding was so extensive that hardly any of the original engine was left, the original frames were replaced with A4 frames. It was only really boiler fittings, the driving wheels, parts of the cartazi (trailing wheel assembly) assembly and buffers that were carried over. Even her tender was rebuilt to a streamlined non-corridor tender. But like you I believe that everyone is allowed their own opinions on the matter. For anyone interested in the story of Great Northern I recommend railway mania’s podcast ‘Edward Thompson Hero or Villain’ it really dives into this topic and is really well done. Ross
I actually have a theory. When the new Henry was built, they took off the old smokebox from the old engine. Henry's face and smoke box were put onto his new body and he left Crewe. It took weeks to prepare a new smokebox. They fitted the smokebox at the end of the day after a BR tank engine has been worked on all day. The workmen go home and the tank engine is sleeping next to the faceless locomotive. You'll get the next part if you've seen the Stories of Sodor. In the morning the first workman arrives and steams up the engine for his test run. When he lights the fire, he hears a yawn. He goes to the front of Henry's old body, and there's and identical face to Henry's. The tank engine wakes up and soon more astonished workmen arrive. They didn't know what to do with the new Henry. The new Henry had the same personality as the old Henry, but didn't retain the memories. The tank engine heard the workmen talking about what to do with the engine and asked if he could work for BR. He worked for BR then on.
Nice video! Here’s a suggestion for a theory, did engines/rollingstock ever die in the rws. For example what happened to s.c. Ruffy? Or the spiteful brakevan did they die? Or are the faces left on the floor? Interesting theory I think Bye I’m probably gonna make a theory like this it u don’t (*T-T*)
A very interesting video and you brought up some very good points. I've never believed that there were two Henrys. I mean, how is it possible to transplant the mind from one body to another? I believe Henry 1 and Henry 2 are the same engine and was just given a new firebox and added steam pipes to the smoke box for better performance.
Like yourself, i believe Henry is one character, but his rebuild had little of the original left with most of Henry being a new engine. I think of it like how we lose all of our original cells by the time we’re 7 years old, but we’re still the same person and remember events in our lives from before we turned 7
This theory technically could be true but it's like it would apply to all engines then every time they repair or have a partner placed they're basically just a new engine think about the flying Scotsman in the real world almost none of its parts are from the original
i have just had a mad theroy, Henry is actually The Great Bear (GWR Pacific) or at least based on said engine starts out a pacific but after many issues was converted into a 4-6-0 Castle class, such a substantial rebuild its basically a new engine
I Usually Want To Say Is That They Performed Locomotive Surgery I Want To Say Is That They Torched Off His Old Smokebox, Built A New One, And Welded It On Followed By His New Steam Pipes
Technically, there are more than two Henries, but not due to the rebuild. It is due to separate continuities between the Railway Series, the classic model series, the CGI series, and the season 25 reboot.
I think an interesting possibility nobody has mentioned is that Henry gets rebuilt using just his frames, smokebox, pistons, and motion (plus whatever other compatible parts they could use, like whistle or buffers), but then the old parts were put back together with brand new components replacing the ones Henry kept to make a whole second engine. Then that engine gets scrapped in the '50s but then gets fished out again in the '90s when Thomas-mania reaches a new peak, gets rebuilt by some mainland heritage railway, and then they meet up sometime after Thomas and Victoria.
Okay this is my theory on the matter is in the main canon (railway series and model series) it's the same Henry. Like magic railroad the the theory where henry is replaced happens in another universe. One where fat hat bought a replacement for Henry and since he knows everything about Henry he forwarded this info to the new Henry so that he knows all about past Henry's life so he can replace him. Now you can go full on dark and say that brainwashed or in the building process implanted the memories of Henry 1 into Henry 2 so everyone including Henry 2 believes it's the same Henry. Since magic railroad introduced magic it's not too Farfetched to say in this universe magic was used. This way everyone keeps the main canon consistent and it's still possible for that this did happen just in another story's canon/universe.
There are examples of 'rebuilds' where both the original and rebuild existed concurrently. The Southern Railway used ten LSWR G14 and P14 4-6-0s as a basis to rebuild them as a further batch of N15 King Arthur locos. However 0449 (renumbered from 449 to make way for the new N15) ran for several months, as part of the development work for the Lord Nelson class, at the same time of its alleged rebuild as the new N15 449 was running in.
My headcanon is that original shape Henry was built based on rejected plans stolen from Sir Nigel Gresley like in the IoS book. The company that built him mainly copied the practical specifics of the design, but not the aesthetics, leaving his footplate stepped like a black five because it was cheaper, but still with wheel splashers like an A1. When he was rebuilt at Crewe, they basically built a Black 5 on top of the existing chassis (new boiler, new cab, new smokebox, new B5 pistons), cutting off the back trailing bogey to account for the shorter length of the frame. In essence, rebuilt Henry was a Black 5 but with the larger diameter wheels of a Gresley Pacific.
Personal I believe Henry 1 and Henry 2 are the same Character Because: 1: When henry was pulling the flying kipper how come he remembered he already went to crew? 2.Henry was supposed to be the same shape as Gordon (i think) And then Sir Thopam hat (idk if it was the fat director)Rebuilt him causing him to have no 1 extra wheel and alot of differences from gordon (That was my reason)
Personally, I feel like the two henry's line from the IOS book was taken a bit too literally, I think it was just supposed to mean there have been two different builds of the engine we call henry. I did actually once believe this theory when I sorta thought about it on my own, I was like "How could they rebuild the whole engine like this and he is still the same engine? Do they have to somehow transfer the face or something?" which I still sorta think about to this day.
I belive Henry was rebuild. Although it's not cannon.I accept Victor Tanzig's point of view of how engines go into an overhaul. Their boilers are filled with a chemical known as greem water. Wich puts the engine in a coma and the crew starts working on it. The green water is to ensure the engine isn't in pain.
Personally, Henry had his crash in 1935 with the Kipper, he was sent to Crewe. But, his cab, chassis, firebox & tender were scrapped, only his boiler & smokebox were left. That's why, Stanier built anLMS Stanier class 5 4-6-0 chassis with a cab, firebox & that's why heʼs the only one that had an Fowler tender & it proved to be an success. His boiler was mended and then, alongside the smokebox, was coupled with the chassis/firebox. That's why Henry in the TVS had an straight boiler. But, then again, that's just me.
It's interesting, but one thing stands out when you said "It's the same character in essence, it's just that very very little is left from the original engine, to the point where it is basically unrecognisable" - to quote Only Fools and Horses: "How the 'ell can it be the same bl**dy broom then(?)" lol - BTW, have subscribed :)
I have to agree with you that Henry in essence they are the same character,but are two different engines.I have my own headcanon being he changed emotionally a lot as well because the trauma of being completely rebuilt really affected him.
IRL It was often the case that rebuilds were considered as coming out of operational budget as it could be considered as a heavy overhaul and therefore part of maintenance costs, rather than a new loco which would be capital investment. If a company had no or little money available for capital investment, classifying a a new loco as a rebuild means it would not have to go on the books as capital investment, even if the only things kept from the original were the tender and loco number! Usually any good parts from the original loco were reused to save money, even if it was just the wheels/smokebox/fittings/nuts and bolts etc. So there is literally a Precedent for this...
I think the only argument for the theory that has merit that I was told was that , quote " the gresley boilers weren't compatible with stanier chassis " but that only holds up if the whole boiler is needed to keep the engine alive but I believe only the smoke box door has to stay ' in tact ' for the engine to be essentially "the same as before"
That point about the rebuild, nope. The patriots are a frankenstein of standardised fowler components (most inportantly the boiler, cab and firebox) on the Claughton frames. Those clautons were scraped. And besides Henry's running board dips before the firebox. My theory. They are 2 engines but the moved the smoke box door. If the face disappeared you'd get a wierd black 5 with an ivatt smoke box door and internally, a strange mashing togever of old and new that resembles a messy kitbash.
A Gresley designed locomotive with Stanier features is possible, look at Gordon! He was rebuilt at Crewe into a two cylinder locomotive making him a Gresley/Stanier hybrid.
In addition, Gordon had a rebuild at Crewe, too. Heck, Thomas and Edward had rebuilds, too! So why should Henry be the exception? If it was an entirely different engine that replaced Henry, the engines would know.
this is the best theory video ever but I will agree with you on this since I don't believe Henry would never be replaced by another engine like him or more stronger. I still think that he was rebuilt completely from his old shape and into the Black 5 shape we see him in today for it really helped him beat the handicap of his health and since then as had a good life.
I think when Awdry stated in the IOS book about Henry 1 and Henry 2, he wasn't talking about Henry as in the character but rather the actual locomotive. I think Awdry wrote the IOS book with the intention of writing Sodor's history in real-world context instead of in RWS context. I don't think the engines in the IOS are ever referred as living beings but rather just locomotives like in the real world (I'm likely wrong in this case). In the RWS I believe Henry is still the same engine after the rebuild but in the real-world (The real Sodor in the IOS book) there were two Henry locomotives with many of Henry MK1 parts being transferred onto the MK2.
My theory Henry 1 After the flying kipper incident the the footplate and frames were scrapped but the cab,boiler,and tender was salvaged Henry 2 They rebuilt the tender,the cab,and the boiler to be the main essential things of the black five and build new frames a new running board and new wheels And that is why henry still remember things before he was rebuilt because what i think that made the engines have memories is their boiler.If the boiler was rebuilt the memories of being a different engine still remembered and not forgotten.unless the incident happened where the most damage was the smokebox then the engine have amnesia and cannot remember past memories like humans
Really I think Henry II contains about the same proportion of the original as the Royal Scots did on rebuilding - i.e. they were completely new engines, but retaining the spirit of the original. The question is how much of the frames were retained.
Youknow, I actually had an idea for a story based around the two Henry's idea. The core of the story is based on "The ship of Theseus" thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object. making a long story short, Basically it would go like this, During Henry's rebuild (of which he is still "himself" during the whole process) they slowly replace so much of him that by the end, Crew has nearly enough parts left over to rebuild the Original Henry, and what if they then DID put those parts back together again? wouldn't that still be the Original Henry? Is the rebuilt Henry the Original Henry?
I think that it's more of a "A Part of me Stayed Behind" situation where Henry's old body was scrapped but his face was spared and attached to an LMS black five, just like how in A Part of me Stayed Behind Thomas' and Gordon's faces where detached from their old bodies and attached to new bodies. Sure it's a fanfic story but it would make sense if that's what happened.
Redesigns of steam locomotives was very common in the 1900s up until like the late 1930s to early 1940s And it makes more sense for Henry to be redesigned because of well you laid out the evidence and you never had to sell me on it because I didn't know it was a thing
One reason I like the idea of Stories of Sodor having a whole "essence" thing is that it's a good explanation. The essence was transferred from Henry's body to a new Black 5 one.
Also thanks for 1.2k
Isn’t it 1.21k?
I actually have a theory. When the new Henry was built, they took off the old smokebox from the old engine. Henry's face and smoke box were put onto his new body and he left Crewe. It took weeks to prepare a new smokebox. They fitted the smokebox at the end of the day after a BR tank engine has been worked on all day. The workmen go home and the tank engine is sleeping next to the faceless locomotive. You'll get the next part if you've seen the Stories of Sodor. In the morning the first workman arrives and steams up the engine for his test run. When he lights the fire, he hears a yawn. He goes to the front of Henry's old body, and there's and identical face to Henry's. The tank engine wakes up and soon more astonished workmen arrive. They didn't know what to do with the new Henry. The new Henry had the same personality as the old Henry, but didn't retain the memories. The tank engine heard the workmen talking about what to do with the engine and asked if he could work for BR. He worked for BR then on.
Video idea: Ik it’s not much but I was wondering how long did 87546,98462,eagle,and Allen greedy (aka the red engine in edwards day out)stay on the railway and what did they do to get sent away? All Awdry said was that they were naughty and were sent away but I really wanna know why.
Oof
Still same
I like to think that this theory is wrong, because not only 1. Henry remembers everything before his rebuild, and 2. Rebuilds like this have been done before; but mostly because, it's honestly terrifying thinking that the first Henry was cannibalized for parts and left to rust as another Henry replaced him, with the other engines being blissfully unaware that Henry II is not the same engine they've come to love, that's some creepypasta fuel right there
It would be like Flying Scotsman getting scrapped and a replica replacing it
I highly doubt that dude in my opinion
Not only have rebuilds like that have been done before, there have been entire classes of locomotives that came from combining pieces from other locomotive classes.
A good example of this is the GWR 3200 Class, a.k.a. the Earl Class, which consisted of Duke Class boilers being placed on Bulldog Class frames.
(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_3200_Class)
@@WALTHERS14 yea the dukedog
Edit: wiki doesn’t work because of the parentheses being part of the link itself
@@Boypogikami132 Okay, so the Dukedog was a Duke class boiler on Bulldog chassis.
One thing I noticed straight away was the cab design, it needed to be changed in order to accommodate the new boiler / firebox configuration, more the focus on the windows.
The Dukedog recycled the cab from the bulldog instead of the duke because that was a thing.
It's also worth noting that in the TV series version of "Percy Takes The Plunge" after being teased by Percy; Henry says to himself *"No one ever lets me forget the time I wouldn't come out of the tunnel incase the rain spoilt my paint"* showing he was annoyed by Percy's singing as he knew exactly what the song was about. The theory is very interesting but Henry does indeed have memories stretching back to before his rebuild both in the RWS and in the case of some TV series exclusive lines. Of course the TV series Henry has a much simpler visual change than the RWS version. Though that can be attributed to budget reasons for the tv series. They made him so they could readily change his look without drastic alterations.
Personally, I believe it is only 1 Henry, like you. However, I LOVE how respectful you were in this video!
Thanks dude
I think that there are two henrys however we only see one as Henry 2 is a replica to commemorate his derailment with the flying kipper (and the gaurd that would have definitely been crushed in the crash) sent to a railway in Wales where he gets Welsh coal and is on a heritage site.
Me too
@@TaillampStudiosWhat the my song at 3:32 I’ve been looking for months now? XD
Edit: Myuu*
@@datguymillerI don't think it's possible to rebuild an engine based on a design that was chucked away by the original designer though. It's also impossible for an engine to recall memories that never occurred to them.
My guess is, the smokebox is what houses the engine's "brain" and life. I mean, there has been moments where an engine has needed a new boiler, or tubes. If that's the case, then none of them are the originals. What I'm guessing is they somehow knocked Henry 1 out, removed his smokebox from the failed body, and attached it to a new Black Five body. I mean, he was only at Crewe for a few months, so it would be enough time to do that, trial him to make sure everything is proper, get his boiler cert, and ship him back to Sodor.
Also, I'd love to see you do one about BoCo, as his real life number was scrapped in the 1960s. I've seen a theory that the reason BoCo vanished from the show was because, like his real life number, met the end of his life at the cutter's torch.
Boco’s story is kinda sad but kinda right, since he just disappeared. So most likely he was scrapped by BR
Youre humanizing a locomotive too much. He was just extensively rebuilt like many other locomotives are during repairs. Simple
@@Boypogikami132 Boco appears in the book “Thomas and his friends” which was the last book that Christopher Awdry wrote. So it not he disappeared, he just isn’t shown as much. Besides, he’s owned by the NWR. British Rail wouldn’t have any say in whether or not to scrap him.
@@MachRacer4 Yeah and even so, BR didnt even really fully acknowledge the North Western region as an actual region on their network on maps and whatnot. BR didnt like the non-standard paint liveries and all.
@@Boypogikami132 But why here tho , we're talking about Henry not boco lol
I personally think it’s false because of his memories and when Awdry said Henry 1 and Henry 2 he was probably saying rebuilt so heavily almost nothing was left
Yup Henry I and Henry II most likely mean 1st and 2nd design.
The memories could be explained Via Henry II being brainwashed into thinking he was the original Henry
most likely the builder just said: hey see that engine? he’s being scrapped just act like him he acts like this: blahhhhhh
almost nothing was left?
Wouldn't that bring up somewhat of a ship of theseus problem? Is it really the same engine with a radical rebuild instead of another engine with some old parts?
@@tisstufffilms7006 no
A Gresley design spliced with several Stanier elements? Definitely possible.
His OG state was some way between Atlantic C1 and GER A1
That's what Gordon was like, post-1939.
@@NorthWestern1919 Yup.
there is supposed henry old model is real in the older version of railway series but then they replace it with that old dhape henry
NOOUUOO
I personally go with Henry's smokebox and face being the same from the original but the rest of the engine is a new build.
Locomotives are generally deemed scrapped on the date of the cutting of their frames, thus a near total rebuild that retains the frame should still qualify as the same locomotive \m/
Plot twist: awdry was tricking us all
You don't fucking say
Awdry, what the fricking heck are you holding back from us?
Everything
wait what if awdry ment when henry had his old shape
The GWR 4-6-2 "The Great Bear" was rebuilt into a 4-6-0 "star class" in the early/mid 1920s though there wasnt much left of the original 4-6-2 left in the new "Star class" 4-6-0
I was looking for this comment, “the great bear” was a design that was flawed and was under powered, it was still used heavily but needed repairs and was basically rebuilt from the frame up, new cab, boiler etc. except the number plate and smoke box was reused, so it’s essentially the Henry story in real life!
I thought the great bear was rebuilt into a castle but I could be wrong
That was all done by the same railway though. I believe the gwr used standard parts so it’s not that unbelievable that any of their engines were rebuilt from/based on old designs
Personally, one of the reasons I don't think this theory is true is that it doesn't make sense from a narrative standpoint. Henry being rebuilt as a new and improved engine is a much more satisfying conclusion to this character arc than him being replaced after finally proving his worth because of an accident he had no control over.
"You'll feel a different engine," - Sir Topham Hatt
Means that he'd feel as good as new
That sus
You sir killed it with all of this, and i've always believed there was only one henry, but there is a story to back up that fact, and it comes from the US railroad called Santa Fe. The Santa Fe had made around 10 new articulated steam locomotive that were 2-10-10-2! big thumpers or the 3000 classes as they are actually known for. These big boys were not good steamers, like henry, had a hard time keeping steam or even moving around yards or pulling a full 100 car. So the Santa Fe were faced with a choice, scrap them all and get the money back, OR something smarter, cut the engines in two and rebuild them into 2-10-2 Baldwin-built locomotives. At the time people said they were wasting money or even it wasn't possible, but after 2 weeks in service they had already done twice the work and performance as there old buildes, and they had got MORE locos for free and cheaper.
The rebuilds surive all the way up till the end of steam, and in some of the vids of commcerials for Santa Fe in the past, you see the special 2-10-2s working hard like crazy, even pulling diseals like Henery did for spamcan. The rebuits got new numbers, none were 3000s, instead they went to 4000. So techinally like Henry 1 and Henry 2. Henry 2 is still Henry 1, but to help the workers at Crewe and others who were working on Henry, they had gotten to the point were his old shape was literally lost and he got a new one. PLus it was pretty normal for the big 4 to take old parts of good locos to make them better on new engine bodies.
But here's a thought I just came up with right now, what if the flying kipper crash never happened and Henry was still sent away, you know what henry would have been turned into? A LNER V2 or A2 like gordon or an atlantic, but a Super atlantic, so pretty much he was going to get rebuilded, but after the crash, Crewe offered to help Sir topham out for a cheaper offer then the LNER, and to also get a more public apperance that the LNER cost to much to do anything while the LMS is cheaper and willing to do the same or even better, but for cheaper prices.
It is my belief that there are two Henrys, but only one character. That is to say, the rebuild was extensive enough that Henry II was a new engine, but his core and thus mind remained, whereas what was left of his pre-rebuild shape was a faceless husk that inevitably got scrapped.
Personally, I feel its the same engine and agree with you. The Flying Scotsman is a prime example of a rebuild.
Flying Scotsman started life as an A1, was later rebuilt into an A3.
Henry One refers to the original design. Henry Two refers to the rebuild. When you rebuild a steam engine, it will be a new version. That is what Awdry meant by One and Two I believe.
I’d like to also add to the discussion with this.
Skarloey and Rheneas were also rebuilt. Both were given cabs and Skarloey was given a set of trailing wheels yet nobody questions whether they’re still the same engine. Also, Edward is said to be a ‘heavily modified’ K2 and yet again, nobody questions whether he’s still Edward. Just my two cents to the discussion
This is a topic I could talk about forever
I personally think this theory is false, but I really appreciate how respectful you were! Great video overall, you just earned a new subscriber!
Personally I think the theory is false . In the ios book when “ henry 1 and Henry 2” was stated i feel like awdry only stated henry in that way is because like you said the engine is fully rebuild to the point where there’s barely anything left of the original. And while the rebuild maybe impossible then how would henry remember all of those memories before the rebuild.
They took the smokebox and put it on a new body
YEAH DUH
People that believe it it’s kind of dumb
@@thepolishgenerator5915 yea. But I heard an arguement that "how would you fit a LNER smokebox on a LMS boiler?"
Henry II could’ve possibly been brainwashed or tricked he was the original, there were was the crew could do this, one example could be them tricking him that he has ashma, Henry II could’ve been told Henry I’s entire life & eventually been brainwashed
The debates in realism aside, thinking of the message trying to be put across to kids, it makes way more sense that it’s only one Henry narratively. If there are two Henry’s then the message being put across is that if you’re not good enough, you’ll be replaced whereas the message with one Henry, is one of overcoming obstacles.
The new intro looks great!
I always imagined that they were different engines but they just took the smokebox door (i.e. the face) and put it on the new body.
Same.
And in some cases, that is considered a "rebuild."
I think I remember hearing/reading about the LMS Royal Scots. When they were rebuilt, I think the cab and some of the frames were the only parts original to the locomotives. At that point, wouldn't one consider them entirely new engines in their own right, as opposed to "rebuilt?"
Basically a head transplant.
Is Henry the Engine of Theseus?
If every part of him is replaced, is he still Henry?
Yep! You can replace the face!
Who is the engine of Theseus?
@@howzzat56 It's a reference to the Ship of Theseus paradox.
Very interesting video and brings up some interesting points to consider, especially with the Claughtons being rebuilt into Patriots.
Personally I believe the Two Henry’s theory could hold some water and I have a plausible idea on how Henry is the same entity but in a different body.
What I think happened was that Henry 1 was completely taken apart and melted down, essentially scrapped, but the molten metal was recast into Black 5 parts and reassembled as a Black 5. This way his consciousness was carried on from the old body into the new one, so he retains his memory and personality in a completely different body.
May sound a bit morbid but that just seems the most logical and economical explanation to me. What are your guy’s thoughts?
I don't even know which story in the Henry trilogy is more popular - Henry's special coal, or the flying kipper
The flying kipper
@@DanReis3740 Thanks
@@DanReis3740 idk, i always liked Henry's special coal
@@ThirdRhombus978 k
Honestly, I've always believed in the "Rebuilt" Henry version, not only because that's what the show went with (I did watch the show growing up), but because (like you said) rebuilds like that have occurred before.
Plus, the Rev. W. Audrey did base most (if not all) of his Railway Series stories on actual events.
Shoot, the Earl Class (GWR 3200 Class) was made by taking the boilers from Duke Classes, and mounting them onto the frames of Bulldog Classes.
When you rebuild an engine some parts like the place where henrys where has the whistle plus some other parts were taken off those parts were scrapped while henry was waiting for his new part's
i realized how realistically a rebuild could have happened
in one of the chris awdry books it says Henrys smoekbox was being cleaned out
meaning it would open and is removeable
his face is just the smokebox door
so they made an entirely new engine but slapped henrys smokebox door/face onto the Black 5 loco
and/or made the smokebox specially to fit the smokebox
which is how he still remembers everything
2 henrys theory is now partially correct cause it was a new engine body with the original smokebox
I personally believe there is only one Henry. I find it impossible that new engine was given Henry’s name and knew everything that happened on Sodor before the crash with the Flying Kipper, it just doesn’t possible to me. Also, I like to think that perhaps people at Crewe removed Henry’s smokebox and fitted it to the body of a Black 5, or removed his boiler from his wheels and making look like a Black 5 boiler.
Could be that the building of a new locomotive was disguised as a rebuild for financial reasons, the financial side of the railway might not be willing to green light a new locomotive (would be seen as a big capital expense) but a rebuild would look like a cheaper option. Possibly with just the frames (cut and remachined) and smoke box reused.
That's pretty much what happened to one of the Vale of Rheidol locos!
@@RJSRdg well technically speaking the frames are the part that the identity of the loco is attached to for paper work reasons so as long as most of the frame is still there then technically its the same loco
what a fascinating rabbit hole i find myself down this time... didn't realize that there was this much... lore conjecture and fandom interaction around thomas the tank engine, tis a wonderful thing to learn!
I personally never believed in the "two Henry's" theory. I always thought it was the same character!
I personally love this fan theory as wel! So many people have made their own interpretation on it!
I think The safest Bet is Henry's Smokebox door was moved over to a Black Five due to how badly damaged his old body was.
lmao i vividly remember you dm'ing me about this when i was gonna make that psycho-horror. good stuff man, great background noise while i work :)
Personally I think he's the same engine. As somebody else has said. Henry I and Henry II could just be classifications. In the same way LNER A1's all became A3's. I get that we dont really know what makes a engine and engine with Thomas. (Like. What can be removed for it to, well... die.) But I recon as long as basically. 'The Head' is the same then the engine is the same.
Was i the only one who thought that rebuilding A C1/A1 hybrid into a Black 5 was impossible?
It should be. The wheels, cylinders, boiler...etc. Would all go from gnr/lner to lms. And rival companies don’t use the same parts
Even his cab is different
Only his whistle remains the same 👀 !
@@Lamp_2155 And? They use the same system, steam. Likely any parts that weren't straight compatible a quick adapter could be whipped up. It's only steal, it can be changed.
Though you've a point. Crewe as a point of pride might have wanted to replace most of the components with their own, which would be why he got such an extensive rebuild.
@@NirateGoel I thought that too much would be changed to be realistic
If his parts are modified then he isn’t really an authentic black 5
The modified austerity that became tender engine “Douglas”, as far as I know, is practically the same but with a different fuel storage and capacity
The LNER reclassified engines to new classes that underwent less than Henry did. Rebuilds like the a2/2 look similar to the other rebuilds but are still different classes because they were rebuild not built from scratch
Massive rebuilding was common practice - look up LMS 6399 Fury as an example - it was rebuilt as 6170 British Legion. Almost an entirely new engine design going from a high pressure water tube boiler to a low pressure fire tube boiler.
Henry remembers everything before his rebuild, so he can't be a replacement. I also just watched a video about the E2's and how they had flaws but if they had maybe a few things corrrected, they could have been fine and not gotten a bad reputation. Why Henery is listed as Henry one and Henry two in the World of Sodor , the way I interpret it is because Henry had undergone a massive reconstruction and change in apperance, its not unlike the way that Doctor Who regenerates and different incarnations are numbered, the first Doctor, Second Doctor etc. Whilst it's literally more nuts and bolts in Henrys case, enough of the ORIGINAL Henry, wherever an engines mind and soul resides (The Rev being a spiritual man) was retained. Henry is still Henry and his ailments have been corrected by reconstructive 'surgery'. Like James wooden brakes, the engines on the Island of Sodor have all had repairs and upgrades, I doubt many of them even match the stock configurationof when they left the Railyards they were built in. And thats to be expected especially over such an extended period of service life.
theres another rebuild that i know about. gwr 9351, which i have actually been pulled by, was actually a 51xx at one point. it shows that rebuilds like what henry went through are possible
6:23 there’s also the Reading T-1 4-8-4s, which were rebuilds of 2-8-0 consolidations.
First believed being left to die in a tunnel by non fans, then believed to be cloned by fans. Poor Henry can't catch a break from theories
Perhaps do a theory on why Thomas is so loosely based upon the E2 tank engine
I don't know, now. I think Henry MK I and Henry MK II only have the boiler, smokebox, and front bogies in common; everything else was replaced/rebuilt
Not even the boiler - the boiler was Henry 1's biggest fault.
Henry's memories were possibly reserved by having his face put onto w completely different engine as possibly preserving his mind could allow him to be transferred either only face or with the boiler being placed onto a different chassis as I agree and disagree with the theory but I think that either his face or entire boiler was put onto a different chassis making him so different but remembering everything before his rebuild
Henry is basically the ship of theseus in railway form
My conclusion is that Sir Topham Hatt I orchestrated the Flying Kipper Incident of 1935, as a way of committing insurance fraud. That's why he had the funds to rebuild Henry so quickly.
That’s pretty clever thinking.
Oooh I love that
Yes but he did it to help Henry right? He did it for a good cause. Sir topham hatt the first was amazing lol
There were never two Henrys, there was always just only one Henry. Because the old shape Henry was never scrapped, he was just rebuilt with a new shape. So the old Henry was never replaced by the new Henry, the new Henry was the old Henry. It's just that he was just rebuilt.
I personally am in the belief that there’s only one Henry.
The reason behind this feeling is down to the fact that extensive rebuilding of locomotives has been done for example; the LNER P1’s, P2’s, SR bullied Pacifics, GWR’s Great Bear and the LMS claughtons. These locomotives looks substantially different post rebuilding.
But I believe the best candidate for this and I’m surprised that I haven’t seen it in the comments yet, would be Gresley A1 later Thompson A1/1- 1470 later 4470 then 60113 ‘Great Northern’.
Her rebuilding was so extensive that hardly any of the original engine was left, the original frames were replaced with A4 frames. It was only really boiler fittings, the driving wheels, parts of the cartazi (trailing wheel assembly) assembly and buffers that were carried over.
Even her tender was rebuilt to a streamlined non-corridor tender.
But like you I believe that everyone is allowed their own opinions on the matter.
For anyone interested in the story of Great Northern I recommend railway mania’s podcast ‘Edward Thompson Hero or Villain’ it really dives into this topic and is really well done.
Ross
I actually have a theory. When the new Henry was built, they took off the old smokebox from the old engine. Henry's face and smoke box were put onto his new body and he left Crewe. It took weeks to prepare a new smokebox. They fitted the smokebox at the end of the day after a BR tank engine has been worked on all day. The workmen go home and the tank engine is sleeping next to the faceless locomotive. You'll get the next part if you've seen the Stories of Sodor. In the morning the first workman arrives and steams up the engine for his test run. When he lights the fire, he hears a yawn. He goes to the front of Henry's old body, and there's and identical face to Henry's. The tank engine wakes up and soon more astonished workmen arrive. They didn't know what to do with the new Henry. The new Henry had the same personality as the old Henry, but didn't retain the memories. The tank engine heard the workmen talking about what to do with the engine and asked if he could work for BR. He worked for BR then on.
I agree it’s just taking a smoke box door from 1 locomotives and putting it on another locamotive
Nice video! Here’s a suggestion for a theory, did engines/rollingstock ever die in the rws. For example what happened to s.c. Ruffy? Or the spiteful brakevan did they die? Or are the faces left on the floor? Interesting theory I think
Bye I’m probably gonna make a theory like this it u don’t (*T-T*)
I’ll put that on the list
I think when they die: their faces disintegrated into dust like the Avengers.
@@steamzilla95 oooo yeah like in the RPGs
This is exactly the kind of thing that worried me
A very interesting video and you brought up some very good points.
I've never believed that there were two Henrys. I mean, how is it possible to transplant the mind from one body to another? I believe Henry 1 and Henry 2 are the same engine and was just given a new firebox and added steam pipes to the smoke box for better performance.
I agree Dom but maybe we should ask Cactus190706 if memory transplant is possible since he did it to Henry in his own channel
Fun Fact: Henry cant be a Black 5, as he has a dome, making him a BR Built one after 1936.
Like yourself, i believe Henry is one character, but his rebuild had little of the original left with most of Henry being a new engine.
I think of it like how we lose all of our original cells by the time we’re 7 years old, but we’re still the same person and remember events in our lives from before we turned 7
This theory technically could be true but it's like it would apply to all engines then every time they repair or have a partner placed they're basically just a new engine think about the flying Scotsman in the real world almost none of its parts are from the original
But it wasn’t a replica, it’s still the original despite no original parts
@@Boypogikami132 that's not what I said but okay
i have just had a mad theroy, Henry is actually The Great Bear (GWR Pacific) or at least based on said engine starts out a pacific but after many issues was converted into a 4-6-0 Castle class, such a substantial rebuild its basically a new engine
I Usually Want To Say Is That They Performed Locomotive Surgery
I Want To Say Is That They Torched Off His Old Smokebox, Built A New One, And Welded It On Followed By His New Steam Pipes
Technically, there are more than two Henries, but not due to the rebuild. It is due to separate continuities between the Railway Series, the classic model series, the CGI series, and the season 25 reboot.
Henry MK1: THERE ONLY
CAN BE ONE
Are you going to talk about the engines that owned the six tenders from tenders for Henry.
One of them could have been....old henrys- I'm jk I think there is only 1 Henry lol
the way i see it its the same case with the mid sodor layout how its the same layout, or in this case engine, just at different points in time
I think an interesting possibility nobody has mentioned is that Henry gets rebuilt using just his frames, smokebox, pistons, and motion (plus whatever other compatible parts they could use, like whistle or buffers), but then the old parts were put back together with brand new components replacing the ones Henry kept to make a whole second engine. Then that engine gets scrapped in the '50s but then gets fished out again in the '90s when Thomas-mania reaches a new peak, gets rebuilt by some mainland heritage railway, and then they meet up sometime after Thomas and Victoria.
Okay this is my theory on the matter is in the main canon (railway series and model series) it's the same Henry.
Like magic railroad the the theory where henry is replaced happens in another universe. One where fat hat bought a replacement for Henry and since he knows everything about Henry he forwarded this info to the new Henry so that he knows all about past Henry's life so he can replace him.
Now you can go full on dark and say that brainwashed or in the building process implanted the memories of Henry 1 into Henry 2 so everyone including Henry 2 believes it's the same Henry. Since magic railroad introduced magic it's not too Farfetched to say in this universe magic was used.
This way everyone keeps the main canon consistent and it's still possible for that this did happen just in another story's canon/universe.
There are examples of 'rebuilds' where both the original and rebuild existed concurrently. The Southern Railway used ten LSWR G14 and P14 4-6-0s as a basis to rebuild them as a further batch of N15 King Arthur locos.
However 0449 (renumbered from 449 to make way for the new N15) ran for several months, as part of the development work for the Lord Nelson class, at the same time of its alleged rebuild as the new N15 449 was running in.
My headcanon is that original shape Henry was built based on rejected plans stolen from Sir Nigel Gresley like in the IoS book. The company that built him mainly copied the practical specifics of the design, but not the aesthetics, leaving his footplate stepped like a black five because it was cheaper, but still with wheel splashers like an A1. When he was rebuilt at Crewe, they basically built a Black 5 on top of the existing chassis (new boiler, new cab, new smokebox, new B5 pistons), cutting off the back trailing bogey to account for the shorter length of the frame. In essence, rebuilt Henry was a Black 5 but with the larger diameter wheels of a Gresley Pacific.
Personal I believe Henry 1 and Henry 2 are the same Character Because:
1: When henry was pulling the flying kipper how come he remembered he already went to crew?
2.Henry was supposed to be the same shape as Gordon (i think) And then Sir Thopam hat (idk if it was the fat director)Rebuilt him causing him to have no 1 extra wheel and alot of differences from gordon
(That was my reason)
Personally, I feel like the two henry's line from the IOS book was taken a bit too literally, I think it was just supposed to mean there have been two different builds of the engine we call henry. I did actually once believe this theory when I sorta thought about it on my own, I was like "How could they rebuild the whole engine like this and he is still the same engine? Do they have to somehow transfer the face or something?" which I still sorta think about to this day.
I belive Henry was rebuild.
Although it's not cannon.I accept Victor Tanzig's point of view of how engines go into an overhaul.
Their boilers are filled with a chemical known as greem water.
Wich puts the engine in a coma and the crew starts working on it.
The green water is to ensure the engine isn't in pain.
3:37 whats the music
Are you still looking for it
Personally, Henry had his crash in 1935 with the Kipper, he was sent to Crewe. But, his cab, chassis, firebox & tender were scrapped, only his boiler & smokebox were left. That's why, Stanier built anLMS Stanier class 5 4-6-0 chassis with a cab, firebox & that's why heʼs the only one that had an Fowler tender & it proved to be an success. His boiler was mended and then, alongside the smokebox, was coupled with the chassis/firebox. That's why Henry in the TVS had an straight boiler. But, then again, that's just me.
It's interesting, but one thing stands out when you said "It's the same character in essence, it's just that very very little is left from the original engine, to the point where it is basically unrecognisable" - to quote Only Fools and Horses: "How the 'ell can it be the same bl**dy broom then(?)" lol - BTW, have subscribed :)
I personally think there is only one Henry but, I like how interesting you made the part about there being two Henry’s
What about godred after his accident on the culdee fell railway
Godfred basically was used for spare parts until he wasn't pretty much nothing after that.
I have to agree with you that Henry in essence they are the same character,but are two different engines.I have my own headcanon being he changed emotionally a lot as well because the trauma of being completely rebuilt really affected him.
1:28 name of music please
Why is it when they show a scrapped train in the tv show the face is always gone? Like what happens to it?
IRL It was often the case that rebuilds were considered as coming out of operational budget as it could be considered as a heavy overhaul and therefore part of maintenance costs, rather than a new loco which would be capital investment. If a company had no or little money available for capital investment, classifying a a new loco as a rebuild means it would not have to go on the books as capital investment, even if the only things kept from the original were the tender and loco number! Usually any good parts from the original loco were reused to save money, even if it was just the wheels/smokebox/fittings/nuts and bolts etc. So there is literally a Precedent for this...
Case in point, The LNWR's "Improved Precedent Class"
@@bskorupk Hence my last sentence in my previous comment! :)
I think the only argument for the theory that has merit that I was told was that , quote " the gresley boilers weren't compatible with stanier chassis " but that only holds up if the whole boiler is needed to keep the engine alive but I believe only the smoke box door has to stay ' in tact ' for the engine to be essentially "the same as before"
Remember, something similar to conversion/rebuilts of a whole class did happen for shuntters (forgot which one)
That point about the rebuild, nope. The patriots are a frankenstein of standardised fowler components (most inportantly the boiler, cab and firebox) on the Claughton frames. Those clautons were scraped.
And besides Henry's running board dips before the firebox.
My theory. They are 2 engines but the moved the smoke box door. If the face disappeared you'd get a wierd black 5 with an ivatt smoke box door and internally, a strange mashing togever of old and new that resembles a messy kitbash.
6:08 What if they just swapped brains and faces??? 🤔🤔
What I think it means by henry 1 and henry 2 is that since henry has a long story, it had to be spread out into 2 parts.
Sir topham hatt : - Won't that be nice? Henry: - Yes, sir...... he said doubtfully.
A Gresley designed locomotive with Stanier features is possible, look at Gordon! He was rebuilt at Crewe into a two cylinder locomotive making him a Gresley/Stanier hybrid.
Henry 1 and Henry 2 are just one character.
In addition, Gordon had a rebuild at Crewe, too. Heck, Thomas and Edward had rebuilds, too! So why should Henry be the exception? If it was an entirely different engine that replaced Henry, the engines would know.
Simply put! All they had to do is switch Henry's firebox door to a new body.
this is the best theory video ever but I will agree with you on this since I don't believe Henry would never be replaced by another engine like him or more stronger. I still think that he was rebuilt completely from his old shape and into the Black 5 shape we see him in today for it really helped him beat the handicap of his health and since then as had a good life.
I think when Awdry stated in the IOS book about Henry 1 and Henry 2, he wasn't talking about Henry as in the character but rather the actual locomotive. I think Awdry wrote the IOS book with the intention of writing Sodor's history in real-world context instead of in RWS context. I don't think the engines in the IOS are ever referred as living beings but rather just locomotives like in the real world (I'm likely wrong in this case). In the RWS I believe Henry is still the same engine after the rebuild but in the real-world (The real Sodor in the IOS book) there were two Henry locomotives with many of Henry MK1 parts being transferred onto the MK2.
My theory
Henry 1
After the flying kipper incident the the footplate and frames were scrapped but the cab,boiler,and tender was salvaged
Henry 2
They rebuilt the tender,the cab,and the boiler to be the main essential things of the black five and build new frames a new running board and new wheels
And that is why henry still remember things before he was rebuilt because what i think that made the engines have memories is their boiler.If the boiler was rebuilt the memories of being a different engine still remembered and not forgotten.unless the incident happened where the most damage was the smokebox then the engine have amnesia and cannot remember past memories like humans
Well after Henry had a accident with the Flying Kipper at night the Fat Controller sent Henry to Crewe Works & rebuilt Henry in a New Shape.
I think they might’ve took it off Henry’s face via the smoke box door and put it on a black five well, that’s what I think anyways.
i heard when the voices where played both henrys wend to crew so henrys original name is bohamus. so i think henry did get replaced
Really I think Henry II contains about the same proportion of the original as the Royal Scots did on rebuilding - i.e. they were completely new engines, but retaining the spirit of the original. The question is how much of the frames were retained.
Youknow, I actually had an idea for a story based around the two Henry's idea. The core of the story is based on "The ship of Theseus" thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object.
making a long story short, Basically it would go like this, During Henry's rebuild (of which he is still "himself" during the whole process) they slowly replace so much of him that by the end, Crew has nearly enough parts left over to rebuild the Original Henry, and what if they then DID put those parts back together again? wouldn't that still be the Original Henry? Is the rebuilt Henry the Original Henry?
I think that it's more of a "A Part of me Stayed Behind" situation where Henry's old body was scrapped but his face was spared and attached to an LMS black five, just like how in A Part of me Stayed Behind Thomas' and Gordon's faces where detached from their old bodies and attached to new bodies. Sure it's a fanfic story but it would make sense if that's what happened.
Redesigns of steam locomotives was very common in the 1900s up until like the late 1930s to early 1940s
And it makes more sense for Henry to be redesigned because of well you laid out the evidence and you never had to sell me on it because I didn't know it was a thing
One reason I like the idea of Stories of Sodor having a whole "essence" thing is that it's a good explanation. The essence was transferred from Henry's body to a new Black 5 one.