What really happened | the Legend of the Greyhound VS Tiger at St. Vith
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2022
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When looking at history, the stories and anecdotes told by those who were there are as important as any document or official report. In war time, they give a human face to the conflict; these stories can be lighthearted, comedic or heartwarming, or they can be tragic, horrifying and dark- and oftentimes a mixture of both the good and bad. But how true are these stories? By piecing together unit histories, reports from the front and eyewitness accounts, we can create a best-guess picture of what happened at what time and place. And today, we take a look at a somewhat famous World War 2 armored duel- the showdown at St Vith between a German tank and an American armored car.
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An article by Louis Mendoza
Script written by ChromeCTD
Narrated by Daniel Thizzard
Edited by Aesop
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I saw a post in Reddit about an m8 greyhound being modernized and still used till today , I'll send the link if you want
My opinion is that it's highly unlikely that it was a Tiger. Knocking out a Tiger was no small thing. It got you medals and was something to brag about. Combat reports, post battle damage assessments, war diaries, unit histories or even letters home would mention it. It would be remarked on...even in the German records. Without this supportive evidence - and I do not demean the courage of the American soldiers who stopped the Germans cold - I think it might be a tall tale....
and for those of you who agree with my approach, this is exactly the same argument I use when Canadians claim to have killed Wittman.
I think it's the canadian who killed him.
Lots of Panzer 4s were mistaken for Tigers, as the video says. When you're afraid of a Tiger, that's all you see. The two looked vaguely alike, and very alike if it was about to shoot at you. I also don't think the Greyhound shot up a Tiger, let alone Tiger II.
@@TallDude73 Agree.... although there is a case in 1944 where a Firefly stalked and killed a "pre-production turret" Tiger 2.
They claimed the kill as a Panther.
Again, heat of combat and no-one had seen the Tiger 2 at that point !
This only came to light when the intelligence guys were doing combat assessments and they found they wreck!
There is a certain analogy to the Eastern front in June 1941, when every Russian tank was mistaken as the "impenetrable" T-34. The Wehrmacht had no problems in killing T-34s, but KVs were a bit of a problem. Most probably KVs were mistaken for T-34s. Since nobody within the Wehrmacht had seen a T-34 or KV before, how would they know what exactly they faced ?
Since I gladly have no personal experience in war, I can only assume that while the shit hits the fan, the last thing you're interested in is proper identification of an enemy tank. I would think a great deal about fresh underwear.
@@TallDude73 It is most likely that the Greyound crew - like most tank crews - has never seen a Tiger. The incidents on the Western front when US armor met real Tigers can be counted on one hand.
Nevertheless, if the boys "only" took out a Panzer IV, I'd still count this as big balls.
i bet on panzer 4. then again any tank is a tiger for Americans at the time.
It was same for the Red Army. Seen photo of the destroyed Panthers with the cyric inscription "TIG".
A panzer would be penetrated by an m8
sure
It was that way among all the Allies.
Unfortunately, not every US serviceman was as pedantic about vehicle identification as us casual historians are.
A German tank all alone in that position would likely have been a reconnaissance track. I am at a loss as to what this might have been, since most of the vehicles the Germans used for this purpose were either wheeled or not much bigger that the M8 itself and very hard to mistake for a Tiger of any variety. Anyway, the story seems to have been a kind of urban belief tale which became more real with the telling.
@NoNamesPlease Perhaps it was a Panzer 2 L? They were usually used for reconnaissance, although i am not sure if they were deployed by any of the units present at St. Vith.
The tank was likely a Panzer IV with a Schurzen protected turret. The round schurzen is extremely similar to the rounded Tiger I turret, and they probably wont pay attention to the exhaust system. The Panzer IV rear has no more than 40mm of armor at a small amount of angling. Furthermore we can take into account that in order for the crew to attack a Tiger I or what appears to be one would take them a lot of courage to do so, since if they didnt manage to knock it out they would be killed almost immediately after that. Being in the conflict for too long makes your mind less clear and the tank was likely to be mistaken.
I doubt they even got one of those as they discussed they were not in the area of the car.
I'm curious why both of these vehicles (whatever they were) were out by themselves without infantry support, or other vehicles. It shows how vulnerable they were when they didn't spot the enemy.
If the incident occurred at all, I think a Pz IV was the mostly likely "Tiger tank".
In the video they pretty much make it clear that it was unlikely to be a Panzer IV.
@@lmyrski8385 In which case the story is indeed fictional.
babe wake up new tank encyclopedia video
There's actually a second similar story told about an M5 Stuart knocking out a King Tiger. It claims the M5 was situated in an elevated position and ambushed the K. Tiger from above, firing into the heavy tanks engine deck which set it afire. Unfortunately the story, as I've read, doesn't give any time, place or unit names in which to verify the claim. Does anyone else happen to know more details about this supposed incident?
When they don't give that info, you need to be skeptical.
@@lmyrski8385 Yes, definitely!
Personally I believe it highly likely that a M8 knocked out a German AFV in roughly the stated circumstance, in approximately the stated area, and in proximity of the stated time and date. I doubt the actual victim was a Tiger of either variety, though whether it was a Pz. IV misidentified as a Tiger I, a Panther misidentified as a Tiger II which mutated into a Tiger I in retellings, or something else entirely is something I can only speculate on.
In the video they pretty much make it clear that it was unlikely to be a Panzer IV.
Interesting analysis, thanks! I like the Mark Felton video on this also, maybe that started the whole tale.
The Greek Sacred Squadron claimed to have forced a Tiger to surrender in Tunisia using Jeeps armed with machine guns. They came across the isolated Tiger when it had already thrown a track and used their machine guns to prevent its crew dismounting to fix the problem. Trapped in the tank in midday heat, the Germans reportedly surrendered through dehydration!
I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale!
@@lmyrski8385 So you have read their report?
What I was told it was a Maus that the Greyhound too out. =)
Cool video.
Every time I hear the Tank Encyclopedia theme song, I think of "I'm the bomb" by Electric Six.
(nsfw)
I agree with the theory that it was actually a panzer IV misidentified as Tiger. Just so many cases in East front Soviet soldiers and crews claimed they engaged Elephant
In the video they pretty much make it clear that it was unlikely to be a Panzer IV.
@hikari hikari ..with how Russians/Soviets are... those Elephants were likely late models of StuG III or IV
...or drunken tales of Siberian Mammoths being used as training targets.
My favorite is the STuG III "...and then they started to move their turret back!"
Both Pz IV and Panther with schurzen were possible. Pz IV seems more likely. The Panther is in size of the Tiger but does not resemble one. Greyhound commander would have to be insane to attack the Tiger even from the rear. Manual "Attack On Panther Pz.Kw.V and Tiger Pz. Kw. VI" clearly says FAIL pointed all over the vehicle. 82mm at 20 degrees? I don't think so.
I want to believe
Read about this in a Time-Life series World War II, specifically the book dedicated to the Battle of the Bulge. Had no reason to doubt it then (I was younger), but previously the book had a sub article in it vaunting the "power of the King Tiger", which led to later getting a story about an armored car besting the big cat. As I am fond of the heavies, this story did not sit right with me at the time, though I had no reason to doubt the tale. Glad it has been disproven; for a Tiger or King to be bested by a measly 37, that ain't right.
I do recall another action during the Bulge involving a 57mm AT vs a Tiger I. Considering a 57 is how we have Tiger 131 today, I'm more inclined to believe this event.
Wow
Anyone who has served in any combat arms unit knows that sometimes stories get.......exaggerated.
Especially as the years go by.
3 min 26 : US rapport saysKing tiger ( Koenigtiger : 68 tons / 88 mm canon ) not Tiger , but as you told anecodtes are sometimes not clear, or disformed by peoples : about this Duel, German tank was well a Koenigtiger, in spite of a sdkfz 181 Tiger tank...in Bulge battle period Koenigtiger was fully operationnal : PZ 4 / sturmgesuchtz rearview are normally well known by an experienced crew, here it's case cause without experience, you don't try to shoot him fastly from rear ( the most less armored place and all WW2 tanks ) ....thanks for sharing this M8 cheeky duel ! take care Bro : )
Highly skeptical of the accuracy of military unit histories, having served and seen the shoddy work done recording events. Also, the motivation and interests of such works are to make all commanders and their decisions look good.
Reminds me of when i went to bovington tank museum in england for the tank fest a few years ago, as a comet tank rolled onto the field the announcer said it was the pinacle of british engineering at the time and only tank to take out a tiger tank, as most people thier was tank enthusiets and knew the story of the comet that followed a tiger till it rang out of gas and was abandoned by its crew, so they put a round into the tiger wreck and claimed a kill, the roar of laughter that surged thru the crowd reached him in his tower and he angrily spat that it is a british museum if u want a diffrent account of history go to a german tank museum or watch an american movie 🤣😂🤣😂
lmao that was funny
You clearly have no clue how the British sense of humour works - he wasn't angry, that was the joke.
If it happened at all, no chance that it was a Tiger...all German tanks seen were "Tigers" at the time.
it was a panzer 1 wasn't it
@@Exospray a panzer 0
Its hilly round there.
Pzkpfv IV most likely.
At best it may have been a PzIV, at worst it's just a fairy tale. In any case who ever was in command of that M-8 must have had a death wish. It was not the role of an M-8 to take on enemy armor. Also why would any German tank been just driving around all by itself without any support. It may have been some type of German reconnaissance vehicle. I guess we'll never know for sure.
As for the lack of support, I should remind you that even today, the Russians are driving tanks alone; in urban warfare, no less. It does happen.
In the video they pretty much make it clear that it was unlikely to be a Panzer IV. Tall tales can travel around the world while the truth is still looking for its shoes.
Man of war games were so good
Men... stupid autocorrect
This game was War thunder tho
I think they destroyed nothing and were hoping to get pulled out of the line or receive some other reward. Or, perhaps it was just a tale told by a soldier that spread like a disease through the ranks, and like fishing tales, the fish grew larger and larger.
the greyhound killes 4 MouseTanks with just 1 shoot
I doubt the story is true but, could a shot to the tigers turret ricochet/send fragments of the failed penetration down onto the engine deck?
My take on the story was that they were not shooting into the back of the turret but into the back of the engine compartment which then started the fire that spread pretty quickly.
Pity. It was such a good story.
I'll take "Things that didn't happen for $1000, Alex"
Is it possible that it's a panther? Considering that they have a similar shape to kingtiger
It was a leichtraktor 😎
I think it was a tiger 2 because many had poor welds on them and shots could penetrate where they shouldn’t have
Even if you are right about the welds (and that's a very big if) it's still impossible for the German vehicle to have been a Tiger II because there were no Tiger IIs anywhere near St Vith at the right time.
@@mattbowden4996 this isn’t a very big if at all, this is late 1944 Germany, the industrial capability is not the greatest in the world
@@kayt9627 It's irrelevant. There were no Tiger IIs at St Vith
I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale!
Is that Half life 2's music playing in the background??
Germany in ww2 is like
We had 99 tanks before the battle 98 had their crews knocked out, so we still have 99 operational tanks.
Probably a Kubelwagen misidentified by US troops.
wehraboo
What about a panzer four converted as a panther command vehicle
It was a story that was good for morail, the Americans were shocked by the battle, and the king tiger was an impressive tank, but if a little M8 gray hound could knock one out it must not be that tough . Get what I'm saying
I find the original story highly unlikely, both german and american reports give the impression that it certainly was not a tiger that got knocked out, if anything got knocked out at all, the 37mm would factually not be able to penetrate the back of a Tiger I, a Tiger II even less likely and even if it did the velocity and force of the Impact would be too low and shrapnells and spalling not big enough not do enough damage to destroy it via a engine fire.
my theory is that they shot at a Panzer IV that was there without infantry cover and all alone for some reason and its engine and fuel tanks were hit, it burned out shortly after and either they did not recognise the vehicle, or just exaggerated their story to make it sound more exciting, i dont think it is unlikely any soldier could mistake a tank and certainly veteran soldiers of WW2 exaggerate their stories all the time, not necessarily willingly, but your brain does those weird things when remembering traumatic events and getting old does not help that, even official reports do exaggerate or diminish things pretty often, so i doubt we ever can have a 100% clear answer to the question of what happened.
"Luckily, the tiger has not spotted the m8"
Yep, typical german player in war thunder
maybe a grey hound did knock out a tiger 2 it just had a modifyed gun
There is that other famous myth of P-47 pilots killing Tigers with .50cal gunfire which reflected from a hard road surface and penetrated the Tigers' underside.
I know, and some people actually fall for it! Lol!
@@lmyrski8385 "Murica"
Heard it was a king tiger painted pink
With sparkles ! thats why it was so easy to see
The penetration data is for 500m, and at 23m the crew could have shot the same spot with all 3 shots, maybe it went through on the second and third shots?
How could they mistaken a Stug or a Panzerkampfwagen IV as a Tiger?
Let's face it, someone made it all up. Rumors can travel around the world while the truth is still looking for its shoes.
Photos of panzers weren't common to US troops. Describing the boxy shape may lead to misidentification. Tanks are scary when you're in an armored car, and if the armored boogeyman is the Tiger, every tank you run into starts looking like one.
Why would a Tiger be all alone ? Recce ? Well No chance there. A Tiger wouldn't be used for that as we saw there was only 14 Tiger I's in the whole battle and I doubt they would have ever gone ahead of their support to check out a village alone. I call full BS on this story and well It wasn't a Stug nobody is that dumb that they'd miss the fact it has no turret. If it was anything at all it was a Panzer IV and even then I am skeptical.
Separated from its unit by any reason (including destroyed or bogged down) and trying to reattach or join other forces it is possible. Which type - may be another matter entirely. But - you can never be sure if build quality was always consistent and up to spec, and whether consecutive hits had an effect considering the cold.
May more likely to be BS, but that requires some assumptions.
It should be noted that a Panzer Regiment had a Tank based Recon Platoon as part of their Regimental HQ Company. The Platoon per the org charts was typically a Panzer IV one. the Panzer Battalions also had one but differed depending on the battalion. However Tiger Battalions do not seem to have this, but used a infantry based one instead.
Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story😅
I think the Grayhound took out a Panther, not a Tiger II. They look similar enough and how easily it went up in flames, being the Panther has thin rear armor.
He mentioned the armor known to be in the area, Panthers weren't there.
Less impression
If a greyhoud killed a Tiger that would've been in ever propaganda and news reel. "Even the smallest gun can kill the mighty cat!" or something.
I think that it was a tiger stay mad german engineering nerds.
message was approved by grayhound gang
American GI opens mouth without lying challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
Is this nonfiction?
Most likely the crew ran into an abandoned tank who the Germans themself had destroyed and made up a story. Good for morale and maybe fishing for some medals.
Who knows, but 37 mm penetration is far greater @ 20 meters than the chart's 500 meters and if the second and third shots could be close enough to penetrate the armor damaged from earlier shots.
Penetration for the 37mm M51 round at point blank range was officially 81mm of vertical RHA. It's technically possible (just really, really unlikely) that a 37mm could defeat the rear armour of a Tiger, but a Tiger II is still realistically impossible at any range.
@@mattbowden4996 How close do you think the second or third shot have to be to the earlier shots to get penetration?
@@mattbowden4996 How many 100s of yards was point blank for the 37mm? Admittedly as Wiki says "the gun was useless you have gun crews with the guts to stand and shoot from 100 yards" How many shots would have to hit in close proximity to be tunneled for further penetration. If one was nuts enough to take on Tiger and fired until it started burning, I would have fired until I was touching. Remember Tiger crews were warned to keep T-34 far away and out of their death zone.
@@thetombaxter So I was using the phrase "point blank" in the informal sense of "at the muzzle" rather than the formal one of the longest range at which you'll hit the target with the sights set at zero. The point was that the 37mm using conventional ammo should not be able to defeat the armour of a Tiger II at any range.
@@mattbowden4996 So at 1mm distance and 81mm penetration per shot 37mm would never penetrate the back armor of a Tiger no matter how many shots fired at the same spot. Learn something new every day,.
So, I view this from three perspectives. Allow me to explain, Tank Encyclopedia. . .
Perspective #1: Historian
-As a historian, I have to look at this and realize that with the facts that are on hand, and the conflicting reports that came from the field, it may be that it was most likely not a Tiger, and definitely likely that it was not a Sturmgeschütz III Ausführung G. And most certainly not a Tiger II! Now, could it have been a Panzer IV? It is unclear at this point and probably will always be unclear. There are just not enough reports, facts, and/or evidence to assert the most accurate conclusion. But as there was a thing that spread among US soldiers called “Tigerphobia”, which basically made many a US soldier think ANY German tank was a Tiger. Who knows!
Perspective 2: Believer
-Even though I am a historian, I do like a good David vs Goliath story. This is similar to the old “faith vs reason” debate that has been in society for the vast majority of the history of modern Western Civilization. From the facts that are on hand, I do think it could’ve been possible that on December 18th, 1944 near St. Vith, an M8 Greyhound could’ve taken on and knocked out a Tiger I tank. Is it the most likely? No. But is it still interesting enough that I want to believe? Yes.
Perspective 3: The Fog
-Throughout time, there have been stories that have come out of conflicts. Some just too incredible to believe. Similar to the famous duel of the King Tiger and the T26E4 Super PERSHING in Dessau, Germany in April of 1945, or say, the Angels of Mons or the terrifying Hellhounds of World War I, this story of an M8 Greyhound taking on a Tiger I and knocking it out is one of those stories that came out of none other than the Fog of War. Many may think that stories either have to be real or imaginary. But here is the reality that we have to accept: The Fog of War has always been there. Maybe that’s just what this Tiger tank was. . . . A phantom. . . . A being from a tear in the space-time continuum. It was there, but it wasn’t from this reality or universe. As science advances, maybe these stories will find more truth to them. But always remember. . . . . . The Fog of War always hides something that we will probably never figure out.
Those are my three perspectives.
The penetration given for the 37mm seems a bit generous.
The M8 was a sort of Ford scam (look it up, an interesting story of procurement against good sense and egalitarian practice) and needed support from any source-even lies. I suspect it was a Ford publicity story attributed to troops at the front; perhaps paid for.
The Tiger's rear armour was not angled.
What Tiger tank are you looking at? They’re all angled.
@@SilverShamrockNovelties Ok the rear is angled at about 5 degrees - not the 35 the video stated. The turret and the sides are not angled at all.
@@32shumble 82mm at 9º or 10º
I know a M37 knock out a panther during the battle of the bulge.
Really? When and where? What units? Tall tales can travel around the world while the truth is still looking for its shoes.
I think if it weren't for us filthy colonials you'd be speaking German.
All i know is that i made the right choice unsubscribing from Mark Feltons channel xD