Why are some children of immigrants anti-immigration? | The New Statesman podcast
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- Опубліковано 21 січ 2024
- With the Conservative Party's Rwanda bill making headlines again, our team discuss why it's problematic to expect all migrant-born politicians to have the same view on immigration.
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I agree you that we shouldn't demand that second generation immigrants be any different from the overall UK population, regarding individual opinions on immigration. I think a more legitimate question is whether the Tories are intentionally giving second generation immigrants with extreme views immigration-related positions (up to Home Secretary), because they can get away with statements and behaviour that others could not.
Why shouldn't they be any different? That's like saying that someone who is mixed race shouldn't have different opinions on race than the general population (who are still 80+% white european).
If your parents were immigrants and you are anti-imiigration, that's one hell of a cognitive dissonence to deal with.
Possibly. But then also, it's entirely feasible that their views are broadly representative of people from those ethnic minority groups. For example (if I remember correctly) most Indian immigrants vote Conservative.
@@andybrice2711 only since conservative party started promoting Brexit, delivering mass immigration from India. Furthermore, Indians will always vote for Indians, regardless of political party, and you will find that Labour has much less Indian candidates standing in elections.
Of course that's the rationale, it would be beyond naive to think otherwise!
I dont think its right that you should assume all 2nd generation immigrants would hold the same views, but I do think its immoral and hypocritical if that 2nd generation shut the door in the faces of those who are just trying to do what their parents/grandparents did. Assumption of others and morality of ones position are 2 different things in my opinion.
I often think it's like the kid who was bullied at school who then becomes accepted by the bullies and becomes a worse bully to show the other bullies that he/she is really one of them.
That is not how it works. Overly simplistic take.
These people DO NOT think like how they look. Their parents are the immigrants. They are not. They are natural born in a country they view as their own. And they are making decisions to defend it.
If you were born and raised in a different country from your parents, you will understand what it is to feel much more of a connection to where you call home vs where your parents call home.
@@pjbpiano So they were never seen as "other" by anyone? Talk about over simplistic.
@@Paul-eb4jp, at some point, you might come to realise that a lot of the time, how others see you does not matter to your self image if you do not want it to matter. And many of these people are comfortable with who they are and their identity.
Those who overblow the idea that people see them as others generally struggle with their own self identity and need people outside of themselves to validate them.
@@pjbpiano Thank you Dr Freud I feel so much better now.
@@pjbpianoWhat a load of nonsense. Does your expertise come from a lived experience or some bullshit academic theory?
A diverse government is pointless if all they do is push their own class prejudice.
Wow. That is a helluva statement. England is fucked, isn’t it?
Hence why class transcends race as the main dividing line in this country
exactly... class predjudice and social barriers to working class advancement are a much bigger factor in today's UK than they are given credit for. Being harsh this could be said to be because it is much easier for middle class educated people (a minority of their own in this country) to identify and attack predjudice that they can see and understand because they know people who have experienced it? The predjudices and barriers faced by a class are not as easy to understand if youa re fomr a different class. The Left has spent 20 years fighting battles that help sub sections of the middle class but don't address the inequalities in health, housing, education and social mobility that all members of the working class face - regardless of race, religion, sexuality or gender identity.
@@CarlinConnolly Hi Though I think there is good sociological evidence for your class versus race statement I really question the other parts of your post.
The whole left wing vs right wing thing is a bit of an historical artefact. Progressive versus Neoliberal is a much better axis for our current times. Were one to have to choose a single axis.
I was born upper middle class, but have lived and at times worked as a working class person, labouring in heavy industry and the like. Yes, going hungry at times. Yes being thrown on the dole and yes, being street homeless too. Your paradigm fails to respect the richness of our lives. Thinking in class terms only has value when looking at opportunity (and the lack of it) and sometimes values and beliefs. However in Scotland this breaks down. Scotland has divisions of aspiration and opportunity, but my experience was that, perhaps because of the much better schools, most folk were very politically aware in a thinking manner.
Of course the barriers are easily appreciated, even when you are from a different class. But only if folk take time to understand. That is a rather produced and myopic statement.
As for, "The Left has spent 20 years fighting battles that help sub sections of the middle class but don't address the inequalities in health, housing, education and social mobility that all members of the working class face - regardless of race, religion, sexuality or gender identity."
Without meaning to be rude, that is utter bollocks. Who is it in the think tanks Campaigning? Who is it in the Universities laying the whole thing bare for us all to see? And, what privileged parliamentarians have campaigned on these very issues?
You seem to have a Marxist perspective. And, Marx still holds true today. However the world has become vastly more complex than he could ever have expected. Are not the tradesmen of today a new petit bourgeoisie? Are not the middle class salaried workers not the same workers being excluded from the capital their labour produces?
It's the "one of the good ones" syndrome. This comes about when certain people have spent a lifetime trying to fit in.
So you literally titled this video 'Why they do this' and you never answered! You just talk about how it's bad to judge them or expect them to have a certain political view, and it isn't about that at all. What we want to know is why they can't feel empathy for those who want to emigrate and are in the same situation that their parents once were? Again, why didn't you answer the question that was supposed to be the main topic of this whole video?
Exactly. She even said "I'm so glad you brought that up, blaa blaa blaa" before forgetting to answer the goddamn question.
She obviously answered the question, you need to pay more attention, I'll summarise it. So to put it shortly, she said that they do this because:
almost there, keep scrolling
almost
wow, are you seriously that interested in the answer?
Ok, I'll stop, here it is:you were right lmfao, they never gave the answer.
U just saved me watching this 😂
Nailed it
You're right, very useless interview
The question of "why" wasn't addressed. However more importantly, the fact that immigrant-heritage Conservative politicians are being "put forward" to advance anit-immigrant (some would say racist), policies is the more pertinent issue. It's "Blackwashing" .... the Tories are using the immigrant heritage of these politicians to immunize itself from the charge of racism. The fact that these politicians are prepared to fulfill these roles speaks to their character more than anything else.
Because the tories want to avoid accusation of racism.
Might partly be about people of Indian/Hindu heritage being somewhat anti immigrants from countries that are anti-Indian. When I was at school (a long time ago admittedly) all the obvious racial tensions were between Pakistani and Indian background pupils - and conservative Muslims do view Hinduism as idolatry which might be uncomfortable.
The Tories are historically and still a racist party and I have pointed out what you have just stated in your post. Divide the working classes and ethnicities on race and then rule them all, if those ethnic minority MPs create chaos then put the blame solely at their feet and highlight their ethnic minority back ground or in the case of Badenock, Patel, rishi, Cleverly and Braverman there colour.
Evil twisted tories but then these MPs are stupid for going along with it all for power and money. They will all in the end be used and then thrown under the bus.
Bingo
The idea someone that isn't white could be against immigration is so crazy and alien to you that you're performing mental gymnastics to try and justify something that is likely very simple: They see the mass immigration happening in this country is not a good thing.
Try looking at the world through a lens that doesn't see everything as racist and maybe you'll understand.
I ran market research at a large london based company during brexit that because of the very international nature of the business, unusually had a workforce that was probably more than 80% immigrant. During the brexit campaign there was much in the media about immigration, and we conducted customer research on attitudes. I also ran internal research and the results suprised me. Against expectations, there was much support amongst the workforce for tightening restrictions. I had expected this group to by sympathetic to the needs of immigrants, and although this is a generalisation of the research, it was not the case. My summary at the time was 'close the door behind us please'. A feeling expressed many times was that many of the individuals felt that they or their parents had worked hard to overcome racism and prejudice to integrate into British society, and that new waves of immigrants served to reopen these problems. It was not that there was not sympathy for immigrants, it was that this was unfair for them and their families. These were multilingual professionals, across a range of ages. I'm not fit to pass any judgement on this conclusion, but it is an insight that has struck me as potentially relevant in the context of this topic
That was the exact sentiment. It is a selfish one. But also it is an unfortunate calculus. I think most second and third generation of migrants of Asian and African origin were afraid that the arrival of more immigrants would pull the indigenous white population of the UK back into the bad psychology the parents of those second and third generation migrants faced. I am of African origin, though also brummie and I do not have the same anti-immigrants attitude. In fact because of my African heritage I feel that I have no say in the matter. I do not belong to the indigenous white population of the UK so I feel I should no my place in the matter. I really have no say in it. Also, because of my African heritage I felt it was immoral for me to decide how indigenous white Europeans got to move around their own continent.
Well given that a vast oversupply of supply of labour lowers wages, maintains structural unemployment and raises house prices... duh. I mean the Establishment is just straight up lying now about the economic effects and who really benefits
Crabs in a barrel mentality
@@AB-ff1cq No, it's called not being an ideologue and being able to do basic maths
This country is grossly overpopulated. It is mathematically impossible for wages to rise and to have affordable housing under these conditions. It's actually sick how you gaslight people in this way
Lack of affordable housing is a political choice, and one that no politicians have made for far too long.
We also have something like 2 million vacancies in this country - over 100,000 for the NHS alone and many more in the care sector.
So the argument that the country is full, that wages can’t rise and that there’s no affordable housing because we’re too full doesn’t really stand up to any scrutiny.
Malcom X called that "House slave syndrome " in the time of slavery house slaves were so anti-farm slaves.
My parents are from the West Indies and I was taken to Jamaica at the age of 10. I lived there for 14 years before returning to the UK. I went out with someone who was actually born there, who told me I didn't belong here and deserved to go back and live on a rock.
The level of hate and resentment was eye opening.
It was a very painful lesson, so I'm not surprised at this conversation.
Fuuny thing is, I went on to train as an accountant, whilst he remained exactly where I left him - angry and resentful.
Brits and French and other colonial countries, need to wake up on the massive resentment WE, the colonizers, created ... Ignoring it won't take us nowhere ....
Personally, I believe your parents are in fact West African who were born on the island of Jamaica. A DNA test would show they are probably 100% Nigerian, Ghanaian or Sierra Leonean. Black people do not remotely resemble a true West Indian as they are not indigenous to the Caribbean. A true Jamaican are those who resemble people who can be found in Central and South America. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against black people and often visit Africa. However, people from the African diaspora, wherever they were born in the world, are 100% African and not European, American, or West Indian.
@@jacobrivers5728 so there's no such thing as Americans or Australians or new Zealand if we go with your rhetorics and are all just Europeans. You didn't say anything particularly substantial with that low key hating diversion 🙄
@@nyakwarObat Wrong, there are indeed Americans, Australians, and New Zealanders. The true indigenous American is the brown-skinned Native Indian; the true indigenous Australian is the dark-skinned Aborigine; the true indigenous New Zealander is the brown-skinned Maori, and the true indigenous Jamaican is the brown-skinned Taino Indian. Like I said, I have nothing against black people born in Jamaica, however, they are NOT Jamaicans but West Africans.
@@jacobrivers5728 stop wasting time and energy. Say something profound that we actually don't know and why are you Europeans calling yourself American, Australian, New Zealand btw? You know that's exactly what I meant but just had to be extra 🙄
yeah this is part of the answer but also these are very rich privileged immigrants and I think they consider themselves the 'right' kind of immigrant, they dont want the wrong kind, poor ones
Which is kind-of classist. But also, kind-of pragmatically true. Skilled immigrants are generally a greater asset to the country.
I also think it's unsurprising that children of Indian Hindu parents might be supportive of more skilled immigration from India, but less enthusiastic about immigration from poorer Muslim countries.
@@andybrice2711 True but Hindus overall are much more compatible with UK and European society than Muslims. Far-right parties are rising in Europe mainly because of their anti-Islam positions. Like in France when Samuel Paty was beheaded in 2020 by an 18 year old Chechen refugee after he showed cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in a freedom of expression class. Also in Germany in 2015 on the night of New Year's Eve: In 1 night, mass sexual assaults by gangs of men numbering around 2000 occurred and the preparators were described by the victims as being of "North African/Middle Eastern" appearance. In just this 1 night, 1200 women were sexually assaulted. This was the same year in which Germany let in around 1 million refugees, nearly all of which came from Muslim countries. 130,000 asylum seekers that entered Germany are also missing by the way - no one knows where they have gone. There is also Norway who introduced classes on women's rights to refugees/migrants after in 2009, a "spate of rapes by migrant men in Norway prompted the introduction of the controversial classes for refugees." In Sweden, this is what former Sweden PM herself said: "Sweden has failed to integrate the vast numbers of immigrants it has taken in over the past two decades, leading to parallel societies and gang violence, Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson said".
The 'proper immigrant'. Look at the likes of Sunak, Patel and Braverman and weep. And they are not even immigrants. God help us.
I wonder who taught them about ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ kinds of immigrants.
It is the language that they use to describe current immigration, it is not just because they are a child of an immigrant too. Also they never talk about about people from their ethnic make up, when in fact people from India and Nigeria contributed to the massive rise in the numbers of people who have arrived in the UK in the last two years. In fact they are asking us to look at certain immigrants only, while their kin folk are never discussed.
Am British born indian I dont class india as my country .I been on holiday once to india and they hate british born but they always want our money ....
What!?? You are talking absolute nonsense!
I can't imagine Badenoch wants a whole slew of Nigerian Muslims here that's for sure.
Nigeria and India are the furtherest things removed from ethno-state although I get your point
The vast majority of legal immigrants in this country are hindu Indians, followed by Christian Nigerians - the Tories fave minorities after Jews of course. The NHS, academia etc are full of em. The lads on the boats despite the media hype are much less in number although they're definitely not 'legal'. They're from countries where Britain has risked its soldiers lives and been an occupier.
Maybe because we dont grow up thinking of us as the children of immigrants, rather we just see us as Americans, Canadians, British, etc.
Bingo! The fact many in the comments have called them second-generation immigrants is telling to say the least!
I don’t agree with the policies the Conservative party have regarding immigration, but the expectation that one should behave a certain way because of their ethnicity or background is wild.
Perhaps, a white British person couldn’t say freely what their non-white British MPs are saying, but no one would use their background to say they **should** think a certain way. It’s disgusting.
You will always be an immigrant but what ever makes you sleep better.
@@TheSereneWanderer87 agreed and the term go back to your country, so these two on the podcast are talking nonsense
On the morning of the Brexit result, a east European customer of mine was pleased with the result and told me that he voted leave.
Asked why?, his answer was that he "came to this country to get away from my family - I wanted to make sure they couldn't follow me! "
Well, he won't have worry about that. Instead, he should be worried that he would be sent back to them.
@@berniethekiwidragon4382my countrymen have entrenched un democratic culture and if I leave to Britain to live among an open society, I would not want my country men to follow me and ruin this one as well. That’s the thinking if you want to understand them.
@@FetsumBerhaneDireright...all his country men are bad and the course of his country's problem and he happens to be the only good one
@@berniethekiwidragon4382 Why would someone be sent back when they have citizenship/permanent residency?
I also was born in Poland and later voted to leave. Although my views are slightly more on the principle side since I would also want Poland to leave as well.
@@asoton957 A lot of EU residents' right to stay depended on agreements within the EU. If you have already obtained British citizenship, then you would be fine.
Badenoch's parents came to the UK to give birth to her. Then went back to Nigeria where she grew up and came here when she was 16, so almost an adult. She doesn't claim to be 1st generation immigrant, she IS a 1st generation immigrant. And that's why she should a bit more thoughtful and self-aware when talking about immigration.
It's called pulling the ladder up behind them
So if a country allows one immigrant in, logically it has to allow the whole planet in?
@@georgesdelatour Whose logic is that?
or thinking Britain is there home and it needs protecting and looking after, not destroyed.
how are they pulling the ladder, when the immigration under pattel, sunak and braveman reached hyper astronomical levels?
@@bigbarry8343 Out of incompetence not intention
Its because they are all true Brits, so what counts is class, not ethnicity. People of the Sunak, Braverman, Patel, Kwarteng families' class can still come easily now because they are generally rich and educated and can get visas to fly here. People of Indian/African heritage were often the colonial administrators, traders, medics/engineers and lawyers and so they were very conscious of their places a roles in managing and delivering the Empire's power structure. Granny Sunak could afford to FLY here - in the 1950's. They did not turn up on otherwise empty tramp steamers.. Kwarteng's Mother was a Barrister in the 1960's, his father an chief economist. Braverman is the niece of Mahen Kundasamy, a former Mauritian High commissioner to the United Kingdom. Patel is an Indian surname or title, predominantly found in the state of Gujarat, representing the community of land-owning farmers and later (with the British East India Company) businessmen, agriculturalists and merchants. Traditionally the title is a status name referring to the village chieftains during medieval times, and was later retained as successive generations stemmed out into communities of landowners. Kemi Badenoch's father was a GP and her mother, was a professor of physiology. Badenoch spent some of her childhood living in Lagos, Nigeria and in the United States, where her mother lectured. The only really notable exception is Javid whose Dad was a bus driver here, but even his family were farmers in Pakistan.. It's class, that's why they can all produce such indignation when people like them would not be allowed under their policies. They know perfectly well that nearly 700k people like them were allowed in last year. Send us you doctors, lawyers, bankers and engineers but you can keep you desperate huddled masses to yourself..
Had their parents/grandparents not emigrated they would possibly have had the same attitudes to life in the countries of their ancestors as they have in this country. Conversely to them there are a lot of people who's ancestors arrived in this country and are grateful for being allowed to do so and like many of ingenious people hold out a welcoming hand to those who arrive on our shores.
We live in a democracy so hopefully we can explain to all those who appear to dislike immigrants that they could be wrong.
Wow lots of babble there. No one reads these huge single paragraphs.
@@adamgrimsley2900 Except the 58 who liked it.
@@clivemortimore8203 there are kindly souls.
You answered the question the panelists did not 👍🏼
Britain is not the only country grappling with immigration issues. A lot of migrants who came the right way can't stomach the fact that they had to do it right yet now it's free for all. Even the old man who helped Priti Patel's fore fathers get to Britain had to do it the right way. The migrants come today are very different. They are politicised, they feel entitled rather than grateful and are coming in large numbers continuously. Social cohesion has been broken. Most sensible migrants that came the right way didn't feel entitled and wanted to assimilate to a great extent with the British culture. I don't think they are anti immigration as being painted. They're anti, uncontrolled immigration.
NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT PAKISTAN HAS JUST EXPELLED ALL AFGHANIS. I HEAR EVEN THE ONES THAT WERE BORN AND BRED IN PAKISTAN.
Thank you - alone voice of reason here. We are worried about the HUGE NUMBERS and whether they can integrate or whether the country will fall apart. These loonies on this thread have no idea of the street level reality, they are obviously rich and middle class enough that they don't see what is happening yet...
@HDSPKSRecords-gi1ob Believe me, it is always the middle class who pushes this. I think money and profit also play a big part. The corporate world loves open door migration.
I'm from Pakistan and you're wrong about us expelling all Afghans.
@@smhamza9705Ok, not all of them, 95% of them. Happy?
I still think it’s ok to think it’s strange when someone’s family, and themselves, have benefited from a system to then be so against it. My family have benefited from getting free healthcare via the NHS and I find the idea of that being removed abhorrent. I’m not saying they can’t have a free mind about it, it’s just strange to me that this is the way the side they come down on when they have themselves benefited from it. Feel like it’s been slightly over thought here
be careful, current nhs staff is composed of workers from regions registering some of the lowest life expectancy in the world, especially for women.
But all that does is provide an argument for people who are extremely anti-immigration. It tells them they shouldn't let people in because it would be strange if all of their descendents did not want as much immigration as possible, and so on for those immigrants' descendents, etc.
As far as I'm aware my ancestry goes back as far as records begin in the UK. There is no other home for me other than the UK. What I can't wrap my head around is why all these ethnic people are telling me we can't have more ethnic people here? Rishi sunak for instance has an Indian wife why are the sunaks allowed here and not desperate Afghans? I'm not even saying we should have an open border but rishis family literally arrived here from Africa on a boat and his slogan is 'stop the boats'. He speaks about these people like they are scum but he is descended from African refugees whose family migrated to Africa from India. Crazy irony. Will his children or grandchildren eventually leave the uk and call another country there home? Will they leave on a boat?
One word: money. Well, that and the fact that desperate foreigners trying to get in are useful to frighten the natives with.
He is a Tory politician and must appeal to his voters.
Because they aren't a homogenous group. They are individuals like the rest of the majority white British & Irish citizens. It's actually 'racist' to believe all ethnic/racial minorities think & act the same as each other.
More mental gymnastics from the right to defend the vile politics pedalled by inept conservative politicians attempting to use racism to get votes
'the black community'
@@frdsg8350 BAME POC
Because... drum roll please... the children of immigrants are individuals who can think for themselves and have their own opinions.
I know. It's scandalous that they do not think according to some random label. Something should be done to stop this madness.
This could have been interesting if the two presenters gave different view points rather than just nodding and agreeing with each other. It was a very narrow discussion, getting narrower with every nod in agreement. The interviewer should have challenged some of the views, look at it from a different some perspective, dig into the subject. A wasted opportunity for listeners to get a broader view on this subject 😕
I’m surprised that this topic has not been tackled before now, because it’s been so obvious . This program could have doubled the number of senior Tories who fall into this category…..AND managed to pay for elite education, which suggests to me they had hidden wealth.
not exactly hidden if they are paying for private education!
@@CarlinConnolly It was when they received that education !!
My take is that being British is more than where you are born. It's a set of values - of fair play, decency, integrity, honesty and trying to make the world a better place. I would be amazed if this current crop of right wing Tories would understand these concepts - let alone be ashamed by failing to display them. In their case - it's all about self interest and nothing more.
I don't recognise these so called British values you list as being remotely British! A nation built on slavery, genocide, corruption, invasions, appropriation etc etc.
The whole country is suffering the effects of mass immigration, economically and culturally. If you can't see that, you are probably too rich to live in any of the areas where it is happening. But it will affect you sooner rather than later, if the figures do not go down dramatically.
You are talking about the Britain of long ago. those values no longer exist except among a few eccentrics, and least of all in the House of Commons.
It's an ethnicity too. Actually so are English, Scottish and Welsh.
You forgot to mention the British values exploiting other societies resources, colonization and making fortunes out of slavery? Take off the pink glasses.
My 4 grandparents are immigrants to the UK. I'm British-born & have no responsibility to be pro or anti immigration than a Brit who has ancestry from 1066 AD.
This.
Your position is very foolish. What drove your parents here is still chasing others here today.
@@osaadetoba4006 you think your 2nd sentence follows from the 1st but it really doesnt
@@osaadetoba4006 The duty is on everyone equally. Think about what you're saying, actually think. It's ethnic nationalism to give one person greater responsibility than another because one has ancestry that dates further. Think about your logic and look at what I said. Think.
Exactly, 100% correct.
As a child of immigrants i find this question ludicrous.
To think that any nation can continue to function while its infastructure lags way behind the number of immigrants coming in.
There are limits to a good thing, as with all things.
Balance
You realise that people were saying “we can’t support all these immigrants” when your parents immigrated? So why was it okay for them to come here but it’s not okay for any more immigrants to come? Honestly interested as this doesn’t make any logical sense. It sounds like one rule for your parents & another for other people.
@@charleyd80 NHS way overloaded, travel costs have skyrocketed and London has experienced a major culture shock.
Be honest with yourself.
Everything has a life cycle.
Just because there was opposition before doesn't mean it was justified.
Now it is justified opposition.
@@charleyd80 No, this perspective is very simple and lacks nuance. We can criticise the inflammatory rhetoric, but to make it about you ethnic heritage - is a problem. Times are different. I don’t agree with their policies, but let’s not play silly. Also, no child asks to be born or chooses where they live.
How many years must one live in the UK as a British non-white person before they are no longer referred to as an immigrant?
@@5ubjugator Was it really justified?? Back in the 1960's and 1970's when indigenous white English people were pushed out of New Ham, Southall, Illford, Tower Hamlets, Bradford and Brixton because of the swarm of migrants that came into Britain, like your parents, and created a housing shortage and culture shock???!!!
The NHS is overloaded because it was originally built on colonial money and only meant to serve an elite white British population. When something is freely or cheaply available then obviously hordes of people are going to try and get a piece of it. Travel costs have skyrocketed because greedy transport company bosses want to squeeze more profit out whilst keeping spending on the services to a minimum.
@@vin00ify Yes. SOMEWHAT justified. Keyword: Somewhat.
Just because too much of something can cause harm doesn't mean a small or adequate amount is not beneficial.
It is well known that ALL advanced economies (when coupled with a nihilistic philosophy) suffer the consequences of advancement - that is, people want to enjoy the fruits of their labour without the responsibility and financial burden of procreation.
Economic advancement leads to a declining birthrate which needs to be supplemented by immigration.
Japan, China and many other nations are currently suffering from the effects of such a low birthrate where the working population gets poorer and poorer due to the need to fund for the proportionately large non-working retired population.
Why are they all in the TORY party? Start there.
They crave acceptance and their accents give this craving a solid foundation.
@@geraldbutler5484 you do realise what this whole video was about just because of the their race or heritage doesnt make them obligated/bound to poltical belifes they are indviduals. To assume so is a best ignorant and at worst racist
No all. Some are in Reform UK.
Why would they join Labour?
@@markbright662 The real question is why did they join the Tories?
Did anyone hear the part where they actually answered the question at hand?? Because i sure as hell didn't.
Reminds me of a Somali saying “A Guest does not like other guests”.
Thank you for the attention-grabbing headline. Could you please discuss the question now? I strongly believe that there is a genuine problem that needs to be addressed. Some of the things these people say would make Enoch Powell proud.
Thank you. To summarise
‘Great question. Now here’s six minutes of why the question is sooooo offensive without even attempting to tackle it’.
I’ve seen better answers from Sunak at PMQs.
Reading between the lines, their integration into British society has become so successful that their identity is one of Little Englanders spewing the spirit of Enoch Powell.
As a first generation immigrant, who loves my children dearly, I can honestly say the one thing that would disappoint me most, would be if they ever supported an anti-immigrant party. It has nothing to do with “thinking they are not fully British” and everything to do with creating a sense of fair play in them. A better analogy would be looking at people who got their first degree free and then were happy to support the idea that future generations should be made to pay for their degrees. Pulling up the drawbridge is a very valid comment on the issue.
They answer the question pretty quickly. People generalise from these right wing immigrants that ALL immigrants are right wing. It's a form of cognitive bias. These are a minority of people who have joined the Tory Party and through forms of selection ended up being public figures. There are many people from immigrant backgrounds who have different political views, we just don't hear from them in public. So people assume they don't exist.
@@SetoPerrier We had a system of free student grants when less than 10% of 18 year olds went to university. Today, 50% of 18 year olds go to university, and the expansion has forced us to adopt a different funding model. During John Major’s premiership we had net immigration of around 40,000 people per year. Today it’s around 600,000 per year. Quantity has a quality all of its own.
You forget the Home Secretary - James Cleverly also has an African immigrant mother.
Good question indeed, and you both managed to go through the whole video without actually answering it. Nobody is saying that people aren't entitled to their own opinion, regardless of background. It is true that there are inherent assumptions in the drawbridge argument, and you did address those well, but that doesn't answer the original question. As an immigrant myself, I think I can answer the original question: new immigrants tend to begin in a position of weakness in society, and more immigration is actually a threat to them, potentially reducing access to jobs and other resources. It is a similar argument to why the working class are often anti-immigration: if you have to fight for what you have, the last thing you want is more competition. This explains why first generation immigrants may be anti-immigration. Their children will often inherit these opinions, as children often do, which explains how other generations can also be anti-immigration.
My dad came on a working visa in 1976 he was very comfortable in Egypt and very educated. My mother is Welsh/English. I don't have any 'grateful' feeling whatsoever that you refer to. I can't identify with the idea of being 'British'.
I feel my English blood in my veins strongly when I think of my grandparents or I see ex servicemen on memorial day. I feel it too often when I look at the sea in Kent or Brighton. I miss my English grandfather he was very funny and clever he died 2 years ago. I can identify with being Coptic and English and Mediterranean. I also feel the connection when I see the needle on the Thames of Egypt and England that spot sums me up.
I think if there is a war then if we are able to help someone fair enough. I'm a teacher now and speak 6 languages. I identify as English and Egyptian as it is what I am. My dad was a successful property man who died recently and he worked hard. He voted conservative and I think I would say he had old fashioned values based on his upbringing and religion that is why, like his dad not due to his ethnicity. It meant work hard, support family, marriage and buy a house, obey the law.
"I see ex servicemen on memorial day." - that'll be the servicemen and women of the British Army then, not the English one.
@@emjackson2289They can be both.
Hard working and followed the rules is very rarely true.
They’re not anti immigration, they’re anti illegal immigration. Things have to be managed in an orderly way to enable integration.
Pay attention to detail…
Yes, they are clearly taking aim at asylum seekers. Those attempting to escape war. And then they use the label “illegal immigrant” as if coming here because your family sees an economic opportunity is more noble than escaping a war zone
I think trying to reduce it to _Pro-Immigration_ vs _Anti-Immigration_ is too simplistic. You also have to look at people's ethnic, religious, cultural, and class differences to make sense of their views. I think it's unsurprising that children of successful Indian parents may support more skilled immigration from India, but oppose low-skilled mass immigration from Muslim countries. Sunak even wrote a report once, arguing that Indian immigrants bring the most benefit to Britain.
from my observations, they bring most benefit to India and to whoever is getting the cut, Infosys being one.
However I wouldn't expect an Indian of any income bracket of social background who has made a life in the UK or descendant from an immigrant family would turn around and make the statements: "Multiculturalism ha failed"
You must see the manipulation and tactics in these sentiments?! How can Multiculturalism have failed if you have reached the upper echelons of politics in this country? Who is Braverman talking about?
@@dugebuwembo I think Braverman would argue _"I succeeded in this country because I integrated and embraced British culture."_
Which she would put in contrast with a policy of "Multiculturalism" where the government enables people to live in separate communities with different cultures.
And I wouldn't entirely agree that people should be expected to assimilate into a culture. I think diversity and pluralism is healthy. But I do also think people should share a set of core values. And be encouraged to mix.
@@dugebuwembo She is talking about the millions of migrants living in a parallel society in the UK. There has been almost no integration from Pakistani muslims. Look at the huge cultural problems in London with knife and violent crime amongst the recent Somali and Nigerian immigrants, and check the employment rate for muslim males, let alone muslim women.
Categorical failure.
@@andybrice2711 Agree! Balance is always healthy: keep the unique culture of your origin that belongs to you, is part of your identity, and enriches your new homeland, but share core values and understanding of the society you live in now. If you just separate on purpose and are hostile to the group that surrounds you and has taken you in, that creates easy hate and conflicts. And it's all basic, natural human tribalism we all are wired with.
That in fact, partly fueled antisemitism in the XX century Europe back in the 20s' and 30s', and was a root of the Holocaust. Yes, there were Jews who assimilated into local societies in particular European countries but at the same time, the Jews in Eastern Europe were demonstratively keeping their way of living and traditions separate from the culture of the country they chose to live in, and were also often arrogant, looking at the local gentile population with prejudice and contempt as well, not to mention that if you read the Torah, there are many openly awful, aggressive views on gentiles -'goys' in there, and most of Jews were religious back then, all of which also didn't help matters in the 30s when all kinds of nationalisms raised their ugly heads.
While you can never justify the Holocaust, it isn't about justifying, it is simply about understanding the process of how a crime as enormous and evil as genocide can be enabled and done; how sometimes genuine concerns and feelings of one group can be twisted, and thus help the process of manipulation and brainwashing of the ordinary citizens by political agitators with their own, destructive agenda. And as a result, these ordinary citizens later participate and make genocide possible. It is a simple mechanism: if one group starts to isolate itself completely and be hostile and arrogant towards the other group of people, and they both share a country/territory, the other group will respond with the same, because it is all primal tribalism, which we learned, to survive as species, during the process of Evolution.
Then some horrible, evil populists with a hunger for power will always appear on both sides and only fuel the process of hatred further, and that is how stupid misunderstanding, plus the lack of will to have an understanding of different ways of life, snowballs into a crime of genocide. And that is exactly what happened with the Holocaust: for centuries the gentile populations in Europe lived with Jews, but both of these groups - not one, both - often refused to understand each other's different values, and religion, and isolated themselves from one another. This basic lack of empathy, goodwill, and education was the root of all the evil, the Holocaust.
But the modern media and Academia often skip that part of the analysis of the Holocaust because Jews hijacked the victimhood completely and they don't want to look critically at themselves too. And people who want to talk about that - that nothing is black and white in this world, and everything has a complex background, are immediately called antisemites the moment they dare to criticize Jews. This is ridiculous, and quite frankly a form of wide and easy censorship, which deliberately suppresses the deeper discussion. It is also happening now in regards to the Palestine-Israel conflict, what an irony: the dehumanization of the Palestinians by Israelis/Zionists, and most of the mainstream Western media, plus labeling anyone who criticizes decades of Israeli anti-Palestinian criminal politics, an 'anti-semite'. So once again, now humanity does war crimes and acts primitively because of tribalism. We just don't learn from history at all, and this fact is terrifying and depressing.
Will we ever be free of, and capable of acting purely out of altruism and love, beyond the catastrophic divisions based on tribalism? This is the most important question of our time!
This always baffled me. If I held the opinions of Braverman my grandfather would rise again to tell me how disappointed he was in me.
exactly. why would i be against something that my parents did only 20/30 years ago? be against the reason i was born and raised here?
But, Brsvermsn is right, it is idiocy to have s free for all, they entered legally
@@niniwatches So if someone is the child of rape, its in the best interests of that child to support rape because otherwise they'd never have been born? Do you see the flaw in your logic?
@@dinghysupreme2972 There is so much complex nuance to immigration. Objectively, it is British land but Britain is not and has not been an objective presence in foreign relations. I think there is a cataclysmic shock to see Britain immigrants laboring tirelessly for benefit of a racist and bigoted empire to a bigger scale of natural migration, welfare/humanitarian migration, and enjoyment(isn’t it funny how well British superiority propaganda worked a little too well, and now people of other nations(especially immigrants) are being chastised for believing it like we had a choice. Britain already pillaged for global colonies and occupy many lands till today. Other than the understandable self-preservationist fear of the country being less ”White British,“ I don’t see why the attack is on just the symptom alone or act of immigration, and not on the collective understanding of the causing these countries the Brits severely affected to move. Why would you use an inherently immoral act to draw similarities to immigration?
@@oluomau.7489 First of all, the issue with immigration has nothing to do with the country being less "White British".
Its about the fact that adding half a million people to the population each year is not sustainable to the infrastructure of the country.
Health care, social care, housing, wages, taxes, are all being negatively influenced at a staggering rate. The data does not support the notion that vast amounts of immigration is beneficial, and this is becoming apparent across many countries.
Hence why people like you use racial and social justice arguments like Empire and colonial revenge as justification, because you can not argue on the grounds that immigration is currently benefiting the country using statistical and economic data.
So you must resort to "Yea well you're racist and mean."
Secondly, I made the comparison because regardless of the reasons for immigration, both are having a detrimental effect.
one is inherently immoral, but you seem to be under the belief that the other is only inherently moral, despite its consequences.
They perform the function of being able to say the quiet part out loud and get away with it. They know that the people they're trying to appeal to (racists) will think ''If Priti/Suella/Kemi et al don't want the ethnics here, they must be _really_ bad.''
I agree entirely! Anyone who calls for any reduction in immigration must be a racist.
Recently we’ve achieved 1.3 million in just 2 years and it’s not like the world’s ended. It’s all fine. The UK could easily attain net 2 million immigrants annually. This idea of ‘not enough room’ is a racist trope. More people is good for business and keeps the cogs of the economy running smoothly.
or more likely - how can it be racist if they are saying it?
@@CarlinConnolly I think what Labour and left wing press are saying now is that if you’re in favour of unprecedentedly high rates of immigration, such as we have seen under the last 13 years of Tory government, then you are racist. I can’t see the logic of that argument, but I think logic left town a loooong time ago.
Sure, if Britons could speak plainly about race, immigration and crime without fear of persecution they wouldn't have an immigration problem.
@@rwatertree This sort of comment is usually code for not wanting brown-skinned people to move here. But if you'd like to prove me wrong then, I'm all ears.
I have mixed feelings about this discussion. First, I am not sure what “being British” actually is, (even though I can trace my family origins as being British back to at least the 17th century) and in any event, what it is has changed, and continues to change, all the time; though some extremists think Britishness is about colour and ethnicity. What I personally find offensive about Braverman, Sunak, and co., is not that they have different views to me; it is that whilst they point out that their families came here legally, they forget to mention why they came here. Ethnic persecution and/or the desire to better themselves were the reasons that came here and I therefore expect them to at least empathise with people who are now facing persecution and/or poverty in their own countries rather than talk about them in much the same way that the Nazi’s talked about Jewish and Roma people. This country is in dire need of workers and tax revenue and it would surely be better to allow immigrants to work, pay their taxes and work towards being citizens.
dire need or workers? that's what automation is for.
Why do we continually reduce this subject to infantile level? There is an enormous difference between LEGAL immigration and ILLEGAL immigration. I am an immigrant, but a LEGAL one. I followed the process and gained LEGAL residence and then citizenship. I worked from the day I arrived, started businesses and created over 200 new jobs, have paid almost £1 million in tax for each year I have in the UK. I, like other LEGAL immigrants, am infuriated by illegal immigrants because it throws people like me, or nurses, engineers, carers etc. who wish to gain residence to the back of the queue. It also encourages ‘migrants’ to place small children into flimsy boats to cross the channel FROM FRANCE which is not a war torn hell hole. People who arrive in boats with children should be arrested and charged with child neglect/cruelty then and there!
the only difference is that the legal ones found a willing sponsor for a job @ 80% of grossly underestimated "prevailing" industry wages. Lets not pretend that the "legal" ones possess some rare skills non existant in the domestic population.
They're not just 'Indians' etc. They are from particular parts of particular societies and have moved here under different circumstances. Both Sunak's names are associated with high caste, I think. It's worth remembering that Burke argued - pretty crudely paraphrased - that the caste system should be left intact as it would be a useful social formation for keeping control of the country. So did Sunak's forebears act as the allies or 'sergeants' of the imperial class? We should be told?
Ultimately, it's all about class, innit!! All of these 'brown' Tories are from privilege, and have ultimately benefited from this. Compare the likes of Sunak to Jess Phiilips. A Tory is a Tory, whatever their colour. They ultimately believe in hierarchy.
4:00 You are wrong to suggest she got other nationalities,( I am not a fan of criminals)she lost her right to apply for another citizenship the only citizenship she got is British
You hit the nail on the head tomthumb.
Buddhists vs muslims in srilanka and Myanmar Jews vs muslims in isreal Christains vs muslims in Europe Africa and Middle East,Hindus vs muslims in India Yajidis vs muslims in Iraq
@@drg598 109 countries?
As someone of immigrant descent I dont think it is at all denigrating that people from immigrant backgrounds should be grateful for the opportunities they have been given and should also support giving that right to others. Because we should be grateful! UK is an amazing country and our forebearers were given a great opportunity to come here and make a life in peace. I dont think it is at all right that we shut others out who are just trying to do the same. Its hypocritical.
But that leads logically to infinite immigration. Because your parents were accepted, everyone on the planet must also be accepted.
@@georgesdelatour Perhaps but then the answer to that is don't be a hypocrite to begin with.
I find it hard to imagine that, having been born into immigrant families, the experience of your forebears wouldn’t be etched into your psyche. I would have thought that that would have given a unique insight into their lives, and compassion for others in their situation. That isn’t a political view, it’s a lived experience. To then turn on people suffering as your forebears did, suggests callousness and political opportunism.
The issue is not immigrants as a whole, but mainly illegal immigrants and especially Muslim immigrants. Meloni in Italy, Geert Wilders in Netherlands, Marine le pen in France, Afd in Germany, Pis in Poland, Tories in UK, Sweden democrats in Sweden, etc... all of these "far-right" leaders are rising in popularity/have been elected primarily due to their anti-Islam positions. Meloni said herself, in a recent interview you can find on UA-cam from the Economic times, that "Islamic culture is not compatible with European values" and I would agree with that.
I'm not sure why you would expect that to be etched into people's psyches. A lot of people are really not that interested in their heritage. And even if someone does feel a strong connection to their ancestors, that wouldn't necessarily give them a deep empathy for all cultures. It might even put them at odds with some others.
And what experience is this? If they've been so hard done by why did they stay? It's all BS what you lot go on about
@@OnlineEnglish-wl5rpmay be because they had nothing to return to? Or it was even worse where they came from?
@@andybrice2711we are not talking about ancestors if they are a second generation, are we? It’s quite hard to ignore the experience of your mum and dad.
Because they don't give a XXX about anyone else
Cause they don't want their annoying relatives to come over 😂
It is just simple. If they were not anti immigrant, they would not have been admitted to the conservative party. It is reciprocal power arrangement. They are allowed to say things that others would not have felt comfortable saying. Everyone is allowed to have their views but the hatred and dehumanisation of poor, minority regardless of race.
I lived in a community where Ugandan Asians settled. We were white and my father was professional. However the rest of the community was mostly immigrants from the Carribbean or Ireland. The Ugandan community made huge efforts to invite our family to events such as weddings but were completely disparaging about the other locals on race and social status.
Im from South Africa, and i know what you mean. We also had a well-known racist called Mahatma Ghandi in our continent for a while....thankfully, he went back to India.
Unfortunately, such attitudes like that cause dark and toxic ethnic relations, as many of those sharing those thoughts witnessed in the county they fled! The irony…
Me things this has an issue
Ugandan Asians of Gujarati background! Very atypical I'm afraid.
How was Ghandi racist, considering MLK admired him?
IMO they think that they now "own" the country, feel entitled and don't want people from their own communities who they consider to be inferior to get the benefits.
Don't forget Zahawi, Kwarteng, Javid and many, many more.
Why do they all become Mean and nasty Tories? Are they pleading for acceptance.
@@geraldbutler5484 Why would we expect otherwise? Many countries around the world are more conservative than the UK. So it's inevitable that a considerable number of immigrants will become Conservatives.
I don't think that's quite right. I think they're more likely to support immigration from their own communities. But may well oppose immigration from other communities.
When are people getting the idea that the Tories are anti-immigration from? The Tories have presided over the period of the highest immigration in British history. They might have got into a bit of a flap over illegal immigration, but in terms of actual policy, they are the most pro-immigration government in British history.
I’m really worried that the racist Stameright Labour Party will start cutting immigration once they get power.
@@Dav1d_I I suppose they need someone to manicure their gardens or cook their dinner. Plus every good boy needs a nanny.
They know which side their bread is buttered 😂😂
It's a good perspective on the question. I guess one possibility is that people like Priti Patel and Kemi Badenoch find they can rise to prominence more easily in this respect, because they're anti-immigration even if it's not representative. In that case, their public views are obviously what they actually think and consistent with the principle of being free to hold any political views. Another possibility is that their parents or the first generation Brits (I think of people who migrated as 0 generation Brits and their children as first generation), frequently overcompensate in order to prove their patriotism or allegiance to the UK.
Many immigrants fled their home countries from either war, ethnic strife or persecution to come to Britain because it was ethnically and religiously homogenous and politically stable, which decreased the likelihood of the kind of ethnic and religious strife they escaped from. The last thing they want is Britain turning into the kind of country they fled from because it means they'll have to flee it again. This mentality basically underpinned the entirety of Priti Patel's career as a Home Secretary, likely due to her parents experiences as South Asians in Uganda.
This is a stupid argument. Most people are concerned about the numbers & quality of immigration, not actual immigration per se
Missing the word “illegal”
Illigal immigrants are a fiction of Tory rascists. There is no such thing under international law.
Illegal immigration is very different than legal immigration
Because our parents did not walk through the door expecting a giant handout. Some of came to the UK for education…not expecting to shake down our former British masters
Interesting... I am of Northern English stock and now married into an Indian 2nd generation family. Older Indian family members do feel they came and followed the rules, put up with a lot of predudice and worked bloody hard to establish a life here. Ther'e generally happy for other people to do the same but resent freeloading, whether by immigrants or by others.
Every couple in ads is now mixed race, they are pushing it as the new norm
I'd look at where we find these ministers. It's not like the tory cabinet is over stocked with brains, character or consistency.
My question for next week...Why can't MPs see the hypocrisy of speaking in opposition of the holocaust, but voting to disapply the human rights laws that were created in response to it?
Im a second generation British leeds born bengali i myself is against unregulated immigration that is detrimental to our growing population
As we struggle to give basic support like housing healthcare School enrolment ect.
Lot of them come here on so called student visas then stop paying tuition as its expensive as you only pay for the first year or so in advance then quit and stay illegally or claim bogus asylum.
Ive got several in my immediate close relatives who have come over in the last 15 years. Recent one just two months ago.
When my dad came here in the early 50s, they were invited as unskilled Labour to work the factories.
But dad is listed as a weaver when i was born in the 70s.
Hi Anoosh, I'm afraid I couldn't disagree with you more on this. To me the question is 'doesn’t the lived experience of your own family give you any sympathy at all for others in the same situation?' For many conservatives in this category, as you illustrated, the answer is no, no sympathy. Why?
none of their families came on dinghies so there is no lived experience in that regard
the thing is, they would never admit to being in the same boat - they regard themselves as something better and completely different.
@@bigbarry8343that’s because they are better and completely different to the other immigrants/asylum seekers coming over.
Why should we be sympathetic to the needs of economic migrants when we already have poor and needy enough to deal with in our own population?
Its that grace Jones song, "pull up the bridge after you", obviously to be a Tory you've gotta be hateful.
We have the same problem in the US and it's because many conservative minorities have bought into the idea that if they just show how good they are to the dominant majority, they will be accepted. Candace Owens is great example over here. If I do everything the "right way" and denounce certain aspects of Black culture, or say things like there is no Black culture, there's just American culture, I'll be accepted. But, like Sunak found out when he was elected, the problem is not what he's said or did. No, the problem is him!!! No matter how liberal or conservative he is, his very presence is the issue. It's because he represents the full integration of minorities into the power centers of society. And some white folks, at all levels of society, aren't ready for it.
As it currently stands, the Home Secretary has the power to strip you of British nationality EVEN if you have no other nationality, if the Home Secretary "reasonably believes" you have a right to another nationality.... hence.... any British national can be made stateless, especially if they are of immigrant stock..... even white Britons who acquire another nationality can be stripped of their British passport. The Home Secretary now has very great powers, with no legal checks and balances, because of all the recent legislation which has gone through parliament these last few years.
They have the I'm alright Jack attitude.
Money and power!
I get what the presenters are saying, however as both of my parents were immigrants and I experienced some racism whilst growing up, the comment made by Suella Braverman that multi culturalism has failed reminds me of the racial intolerance of the late 1970s and early 1980s. I didn't expect those comments from someone from a non white ethnic heritage. I have seen negative comments about the Prime Minister, London Mayor, First Ministers of Scotland and Wales not being white.
Could it be that the old immigrants wanted to assimilate into the culture and came after serving the empire. While the new immigrants want to maintain their distinct culture, come in huge numbers and thereby make themselves unwelcomed ?
Their point is absurd. Criticizing an immigrant or a child of immigrants for (flagrant) anti-immigrant views is absolutely not the same thing as, well, racism.
These new rules have already made India GDP become higher in G20 than that of UK. Thanks to Patel, Sunak, and Suella. Keep it up 👍
Well in one word Coconuts, ironically take that from an Eurasian man who can spot them a friggin mile away.
This is because some immigrant children are neglected in school and they feel ashamed of where their parents came from and they always have this low self-esteem. When these children grow up and reach a position, they take out their problems on other immigrant parents and always carry with them an anger that originates from their childhood.
There is a proverb: "One guest dislikes another, and the host dislikes both"
I never heard of it,but it rings true.
In my experience, people from ethnic minority backgrounds don't have the same fear of being called racist in being against immigration. They also often have the view that they came here legally in different times and so they aren't sympathetic to those who don't. They also know that some of the people from foreign countries aren't angelic, like anywhere, as they used to live among them. And lastly they are British citizens like anyone else and have often grown up here, so they too don't like to see their communities changing.
My father is English (Liverpool), my mother was from Yugoslavia (Bosnia). The very last thing I want in Britain is for us to let in 1000s of Balkan criminals and gangsters. Mass migration only benefits corporations, landlords, politicians and criminals. Moderate, low-level migration is what is actually beneficial to Britain. Then you get the best migrants and if gives them a chance to integrate. The natives don't feel overwhelmed and are less hostile to the migrants too.
The reason behind this situation is quite evident: Certain politicians in the UK exhibit disdain and prejudice towards immigrants as a means to bolster their support among the whites thereby perpetuating systemic racism. It's important to clarify that this observation isn't an expression of personal animosity but rather an acknowledgment of the divisive tactics employed by some individuals in positions of power.
For those who are non-white and considering their place in the UK, it's worth reflecting on one's identity and the current socio-political climate. If opportunities arise, it might be prudent to explore relocating to a country with a more inclusive attitude towards immigrants. The UK, unfortunately, harbors significant levels of animosity and resentment towards immigrant communities, both from white and non-white individuals.
In light of these challenges, immigrants are encouraged to prioritise their well-being and seek environments where they can thrive without facing systemic discrimination and hostility.
It’s not prejudice - it’s because someone with that background should be more likely to have experience and understanding of the lives of immigrants. They should be wiser and kinder.
I have exchanged views with a new member of the Reform Party who was obviously a racist and is backing the government on taking tougher action on immigrants, because he admitted he wanted a 'whiter' Britain and saving it from being 'Overrun'. So I then asked why does he support all those hard liners who are tough on immigration in our government that are from ethnic backgrounds. He replied that they are at the moment serving a purpose so he will vote for them, but if they succeed in obtaining a Britain that Reform aspires to he will want all of those from ethnic backgrounds in the government to be on the last plane out of Britain to Rwanda or anywhere that is not Britain. It seems people like Braverman are being a little stupid to court the vote of these sort of people who thinks she is not British and should be deported as soon as possible without reference to our courts or the ECHR. So the old saying comes to mind 'Be Careful What You Vote For'
The last one across the moat is the first to raise the drawbridge. Same as it ever was.
A point that this puff piece didn't even attempt to answer.
But if the drawbridge stays open for any amount of people? Then the castle is overrun. An island can only have so may resources. It can't have endless expansion of population.
When in Junior school, "Wah" came in, me and my friend (both white English boys) took it upon ourselves to befriend and welcome, this girl who sailed halfway across the world from Vietnam.
I hate bad politics,
It's not really possible to hate migrants?
Any hate is just misplaced frustration.
At the time of the Brixton race riots in the eighties Peregrine Worsthorne wrote an editorial in the daily telegraph that stated Britain was so racist that even right wing conservative immigrants were looked down upon by the conservative establishment.Where as in America this was not the case.I don't like Priti Patel but I'm all too conscious that it's better she's free to express her views then be suppressed.
It's the good old 'close the door behind me'
Is it possible that there might be some over compensation at work here, in order to fit in with an otherwise suspicious Conservative Party?
Yes, that's possible. They want to prove they are the children of 'good immigrants'. They throw other ethnic groups under a bus, without nuance. They talk up colonialism and exercise deference to the British ruling and upper middle class. They are fawning weasels, trying to masquerade as competent politicians. And failing!
It is a constant battle of identity crisis. I moved to the UK more than 5 years ago. I came here legally, to work in healthcare and education. As per the criteria of the Tories, I am a "good immigrant" I contribute to the economy, pay my taxes, do not claim benefits, etc. The thought that troubles me all the time, which I admit is inflammatory and destructive is "Because of the colour of my skin and the way I look, people automatically would assume I came here illegally and I am a burden on the society."
Imagine if there was not such a thing as asylum seekers or illegal migrants! would I feel the same? The same goes for a second-generation immigrant! it is a constant battle of identity crisis! To find ways to fit in, be accepted, and not have any insecurities about what others think of you simply because of your skin colour or how you look! one would probably go further than their native peers only to prove they belong in the circle! Growing up with that identity crisis defines your values and perspectives!
This is why the New Statesman is the best left-leaning publication currently: not afraid to hold the ideology at arm's length and call out the BS on its own side of the fence. Thanks Anoosh and Freddie. Others could learn.
Yes! No BS here, the Tories are oh so very anti-immigration.
There’s been a shockingly low immigration rate under this anti-immigration racist
Tory government. Only 1.3 million in two years. The economy needs at least 2 million a year!
@@Dav1d_I The Tories are the party of big business so yes they've helped them flood the labour market with cheap foreign labour for 14 years now. It also expands the consumer base, raises prices especially house prices and drains the welfare state and public services which they hate
@@OnlineEnglish-wl5rp don’t you worry! Reeves, Reynolds and Starmer are also very pro big business. Right now they’re in Davos chumming up with the bankers and globalists! I’m sure they’ll keep the labour market nicely flooded once they’re in charge. Then hopefully we’ll see even more booming immigration. To the moon!
@@Dav1d_I another story ;)
They need to bring in maximum quotas which can't be exceeded. At the moment the immigration system is a joke and full of abuse particularly with study visas.
It seems to add an extra burden to members of ethnic minorities. Not only do you have to suffer discrimination, but we expect you to become a better person because of the experience.
well I lived for 38 years in the UK was constantly told I do not belong, resisted taking British citizenship got fed up and left back to Portugal..........the way EU citizens where treated in the UK is a stain on your country, I hope to never ever set foot on that hate Island ever again .......the irony is I came back to a village of 7000 people .....723 british immigrants !!!
You can't count
@@michellepeoplelikeyoumurde8373 is that all you have to say ???
Wouldnt children of Immigrants just be brittish citizens? Also are they not fighting ilegal immigration and lastly did their parents or grandparents assimilate or did they try to impose their way onto Brittish culture? I am just asking.
You can't be grateful if you have no empathy.
It's obvious: not all immigrants are the same, we are against those who come to sponge on the system and those who commit crime. Self-supporting, law-abiding immigrants are welcome.
They are on the gravy train and don't want others to share it.
They are anti illigal immigration not legal immigration 😅
They worked hard to be rich: to fit in with the Cons & Toffs. They need to be one of the team 😂
I am a Ugandan Asian and came here when I was 3 years old. When we came here we were housed in an old military base until my parents found jobs and housing. In our fifty years here we have never lived in council housing or been unemployed. We never complained about being put up in a military base but were grateful for what we got. Nowadays the migrants expect housing and benefits and are constantly complaining about how bad things are. When people behave like this you have to ask yourself will these people help drive the country forward or just be a drain on the country. This is why as an immigrant I am against the type of immigration that is happening right now.
Your own background is very typical as far as I can find out. So where do you get the idea that more recent immigrants are different? The ones I meet are very like your parents and you - hard-working and with ambitions to improve life for their children.
Are you asking why others can't suffer the same way you did? You know there is a housing crisis, and asylum back log that didnt exist when you arrived. Some generations are do dense/dissonance about their experiences and the changes in the world since that time
Work was plentiful in the 50’s as the Second World War had just ended not long ago and so Europe needed to be rebuilt, housing was being built and it was before thatcher brought in the right to buy which took council housing away from the working class, the welfare state was created and mental health improved, it was the birth of the NHS.
All created jobs and helped drive the economy upwards. The Tories destroyed this in the 80’s with their neo liberal Thatcher right agenda and then the world in general changed for the worst ie climate change created by the industrial revolution of the 19th century.
This on its own is driving massive change as people can no longer farm in the global south due to extreme weather events, this then creates wars as people can not live and feed them selfs and fight over resources and so people migrate, as they have done when faced with such catastrophic events through out the history of the globe.
You live in the past and that past is dead and can not be compared to the present, you can not rationally think and hark back to when you were young. The thing is that time you were young in has no bearing on the present ie it no longer and will never exist again
I think my confusion over their point of view comes from a perceived lack of empathy. I (as a liberal white middle class British person) find it hard to justify the denial of asylum to anyone facing persecution, and find it even more difficult to understand the view point of someone who opposes asylum and has heard stories from family members who were in similar situations and had their lives changed by finding refuge in Britain.
Cruella, Awful Sunak are NOT immigrants, because immigrants are descendants of people colonized by the UK. Those 3 were colonized BUT they got enrolled by the UK Colonial Power to give a hand to colonize other colonized people , in particular in east Africa, those 3, came from ... They were NOT colonized people anymore but colonial auxiliaries and today they carry the same hatred for colonized people as they did in that role but this time right in the UK. They apply their traditional hatred to the migrants because are in fact the descendants of people colonized by the UK, the very same ones they helped enslave. Those 3 have NO intention to accept equality with the genuine colonized people as opposed to what the UK law invites to... it's why they want to change the lwas to make them like in the British colonies ...
Badenok's case may be slightly different as she may be a genuine migrant meaning someone from colonized origin not converted into a colonial auxiliary of a British colony. This is because there is a true intent on the colonizer's part to attract descendants of colonized, in very few number, to switch side. There is a similar case in France with Rachida Dati in France who is of Algerian descend. It's a way for the colonizer to blur the picture and sow doubt to disarm anti-colonialism.
Therefore the meaning of all this is that it is not surprising to see those 3 and the like at the forefront of the alt-right and its massive attempt to prevent equality and to establish right here in the UK and right in France colonial rules of segregation and apartheid .. like in Colonial Kenya or Colonial Algeria ...
Because the migrants to the UK come from BRITISH former colonies (Nigeria, Uganda, Kenya, Ghana, Pakistan, India etc.. ) when, surprise, surprise, the migrants to France come from FRANCE's former colonies (Algeria, Mali, Senegal, Congo , Indochina etc...) you have the immigration of YOUR colonization.. therefore you CANNOT complain about it because YOU are responsible for it. You, Brits, French, forced YOUR economic systems upon those people, forcing them to be with YOU .. and now, guess what ... they are ... and you discuss them the right to be here ??? You discuss actually the EQUALITY with them many of you refuse ... BUT remember ... YOU, Brits, French, YOU colonized. Those people are NOT here by chance but because of YOU and your f%$%# colonization ... it's why you are getting back YOUR colonial auxiliaries too ... But you have to deal with that and accept the consequence of what YOUR country did ... in YOUR name ....
There's nothing "offensive" about highlighting their family's immigrant background as relevant to their views on immigration.
Descendants of immigrants like myself feel a sense of revulsion at these people's choices because it goes against the golden rule: treat others as you would like to be treated. It''s not complicated.
I don't think it's dehumanising to assume that someone whose family fled prosecution would have empathy for others in the same position.
Who's persecuting migrants? They go back on holiday and send their kids back when crime in London gets too high.
This is strange….
So let me get this straight: we need to be open to other kinds of cultures because even if people are born here their heritage is different.
But when it comes to politics, we’re supposed to forget this heritage altogether?
No one is saying they are less British. It’s just that we are not denying their background whereas they are.
The Tories are not anti immigrant they increased immigration to all time records, more than twice as many in 2023 than any year under Blair/Brown.
This is the exact question I have been asking. Thank you, New Statesman for opening the discussion.