1800…for a Nurse to say…’oooh that looks nasty’ and put a band aid on it. In UK that would cost me, let’s see…ummmm….oh yeah….Nothing! Ambulance into Emergency…Nothing, Having the wound stitched….Nothing, tetanus shots and antibiotics…Nothing, overnight care for observation….Nothing! The US medical system is a bad joke that leaves you crying and bankrupt unless you pay a fortune every month for insurance….SMH.
@@nisse68 Literally (literally literally) no one thinks healthcare doesn't cost anything at all. "Free" means free at the point of use so you don't need to worry about costs when you get hurt or ill, with those costs being spread out over a lifetime of taxes (or, in countries like Germany, a lifetime of insurance contributions)
42 years using a table saw. Never had an incident until 2 months ago. End of long day of cutting (8 hours). Getting tired but pushed for one more hour. Minutes after that decision, three fingers across the blade on left hand. Tip of one finger peeled back with 5 stiches. 8 stitches in the other and third one nicked. No stitches. One week later with pressure to get job completed. Third cut of the morning compensating for left hand, run thumb of right hand across the blade. 1/2" wide swath pushing waste to the side. No chance for stitches. Just wrapped up to heal. Hands still not 100%. Heard of the saw stop and purchased it immediately. Hopefully never have to go through this again. Cost of the saw $$$$ Saving a finger or two.......... Priceless!!!!! Always listen to your body when its telling you your done for the day.
Ow! I'm glad you are mostly OK. That's why I got the SawStop, just in case. I'd rather go thru a little extra pain and cost dealing with something like this guy did, than be missing fingers.
I'm reminded of the saying "Stupidity _should_ hurt; it keeps us from repeating the same mistake again." Thank you for sharing _your_ 'stupidity', as it will serve as a good warning for the rest of us. (I, for example, would have probably have made *_exactly_* the same mistake if I had been in your place. Now--hopefully--I never will, thanks to your humility.) ...and this has made me even more determined to get a SawStop once I can afford to have my own shop. I've made enough expensive mistakes in my time to look at having to shell out $150 for a new cartridge as getting off cheaply!
@@TiBiAstro "injuries that could potentially kill you are not life lessons" ...only if you don't learn from them. For those of us who *_are_* willing to learn from our mistakes, they teach us things that we can use to prevent worse mistakes.
I've owned a Saw Stop PCS since 2009. In those 15 years I've set the blade brake off twice - both times in the last 12 months. Both incidents involved operator error - a nice way of saying "my stupidity." Neither resulted in any injury whatsoever, other than to my wallet and pride. The first incident involved the dado stack. I switched from a single blade to my dado stack and changed the cartridge. As you mention in the video, the gap between the blade brake and dado stack has to be adjusted to maintain the proper gap. This is a routine adjustment that I've done hundreds of times. Unfortunately, on this occasion, my change over routine was interrupted by a phone call and I never reset the gap. When I started the saw the dado stack contacted the blade brake and set it off. About $150 later (blade brake plus repairs to a couple chipped teeth on the dado), I was back in business. The new dado blade brake now comes with a warning to users to always reset the gap when installing the dado brake. Guess I'm not the only idiot. The second involved my standard, single blade brake. This brake, by the way, was the original brake that came with my saw. It was the first table saw cut of the day and after I powered the saw up it went through its usual blinking lights while the system ran through its checks. Instead of a solid green light, the saw had a solid red light. "Huh" I said to myself, "never saw that before." At this point I should have bent over and looked at the chart on the saw's power box to learn that a solid red light means "replace cartridge." But, no, I used the universal technology solution of turning the saw off waiting a few seconds and turned the saw back on. This time I got the normal solid green light, so I turned the blade on. Within seconds (and before the work piece touched the blade) the brake fired and my day took a turn for the worse. I contacted Saw Stop and they sent me a return label so they could diagnose the problem with the blade cartridge. There's also a on-line form you fill out. If the brake failure is a problem with the brake, Saw Stop sends you a new brake for free. My diagnostic report showed that my 15 year old cartridge had a build up of dust and "schmutz" inside that had accumulated over years of use. I do clean out my saw interior from time to time but I never did anything special to the cartridge. So, the new cartridge was on me but my Forrest WW2 blade only needed to be resharpened. Next time I think I'll check the chart if I see red and green lights blinking in some odd manner. I'll probably also hit that cartridge with a little compressed air from time to time. Lessons learned.
Hi John, as a former metallurgist I can say that the blade will not have suffered from fatigue. As the name suggests fatigue happens over time and is not the result of something sudden and catastrophic. The two types of damage that could occur would be the blade being bent or a stress fracture. You can obviously use a straight edge to check the shape and watch it when it's spinning. To test for a fracture you can buy a dye penetrant test kit which are very cheap (£22 in the UK). You spray on a red dye that has ultra low viscosity and sinks into any crack no matter how small, even to the naked eye. Then you wipe it all off and spray on a white powder. Any red dye that has found its way into a crack will leech out and be exposed by the powder. To check for internal cracks you can rap a metal punch against it. If the sound changes over any area then there is damage. Of course the only way to be 100% sure would be to have the blades x-rayed or by using ultra sound but I've never heard of a blade shattering and flying apart and I've watched quite a few You Tube videos where people have intentionally activated the brake. Glad you're safe and enjoying your channel.
A bent blade is easy to spot, but a stress fracture is not. I would be very cautious using it again. Maybe send it back to the manufacturer and let them check it.
Paulhume8083 the blade is now junk and saw stop doesn't recommend reusing the blade and blades are cheap to just replace its not worth the risk that it could come apart
this is a great example of how well the saw stop actually works. If that was your thumb, all you had needed was a small bandaid, but without it you'd be in the emergency room. Thanks for uploading this video!
@@debandmike3380 That's like saying "If you had dropped the bowl, maybe you shouldn't be eating soup in the first place". People make mistakes all the time, ESPECIALLY around objects they've used thousands of times and are familiar with. It happens. It's why this brake exists.
I tripped mine on my ICS about 18 months ago with a Woodworker II and my miter gauge. It bent the blade and arbor. When I spoke to Sawstop about it the engineer told me there is a sensor in the arbor assembly and that when a lot of home shop users attempt to change only the shaft, they damage it. This in turn requires the whole arbor assembly to be changed. So I purchased the assembly for $463 plus tax and shipping. The procedure is pretty simple and once you remove your outfeed table, fence rails, and cast iron top you have great access to the assembly, so it’s only a 5-6 hour job if you’re working fast 😮 mine took around 7 hours. Last week I was using the saw and moved the incra miter gauge from some odd angle back close to 90°, adjusted the fence out of the way of the blade, and then noticed it wasn’t exactly at 90°. I moved it and didn’t notice the little adjustment moved the dang fence back into the blade path, shortly after made a cut, and destroyed my other woodworker II that I’ve been using since 2007. This time the arbor was unbent, so it was only a $400 mistake instead of a $900 mistake.
I haven't set off my sawstop yet (and I hope to not) but it's nice insurance. Replacing a whole PCS is cheaper than so many medical procedures to fingers. If you have the cash for upfront investment it's a great purchase.
I learned the same lesson exactly the same way, except with a 10” blade rather than a dado stack. Definitely a learning experience - I now check the miter gauge for clearance after every change in settings. In my case the brake and blade were locked together, so I hung them above the saw as a reminder.
Hey John-Great presentation. I formerly had a woodworking shop in the basement of an apartment building I used to own. A tenant who I trusted and who was very talented asked to use my SawStop cabinet saw to cut wood for a bed he was making, and I said yes. Later, when I resumed using the saw, I set off the brake cartridge. Turns out the tenant had reset the fence on my crosscut jig, and it contacted the saw blade, setting off the brake. In the 15 years that I owned the saw (I bought one of the earliest saws imported by SawStop) it activated the brake cartridges 4 times. Never because human flesh touched the blade, just metal in the wood, and so on. One time the blade was undamaged, but the other 3 times I sent the blades back to Forrest to be repaired. Forrest did okay by me and my SawStop! I was extremely pleased with this saw, its build quality and its safety. I feel exactly as you do about preventing a catastofic disaster to my hand. When Fine Woodworking Magazine had a blog about this, I wrote them a letter, part of which was published in a later edition.
After 25+ years, I managed to run two fingers thru the edge of the blade. There was a hand surgeon on duty at the hospital and he removed one entire nail and stitched the other finger. My middle finger is slightly thinner and the ring finger is lookin' good. I had to have three months of therapy to get the full use of my left fingers. This was five years ago.
I bet the arbor bent due to the added rotational inertia of the dado stack vs a normal saw blade. Since the SawStop is just munching down on one side of the blade to stop it, the reaction force is going to be pushing laterally on the arbor. More rotational inertia slowing down at a similar rate means more force bending the arbor.
I have a SawStop and triggered the cartridge with a dado stack. Unfortunately, I was using a stack with solid chippers. In their manual, SawStop recommends not to use solid chippers. The mass can be too great for the arbor. I did bend my arbor and had to replace the entire arbor assembly. Lesson learned, I have now read my SawStop manual cover to cover. The saw has saved me twice from serious injury, and I am thankful to have purchased it 19 years ago.
That is what I was starting to suspect, although I haven't been able to find that in my manual, just not more than 13/16 thick. What was involved in replacing the arbor?
If it has saved you twice from injury than you should rethink if this entire woodworking thing is for you! What if it was the router table, jointer or a tool that does not account for stupidity? 48 years old started using equipment in dads shop at age 8 (not table saw but still stuff you do not want the hand in) I still have all fingers and only ever had one almost real bad brush with the router that remover a thumb print, (I was lucky) but it was my own stupidity as I said this might be a bad Idea when I started. But I learned and if I do not feel 100% on what I am doing I leave the machine off. This is a expensive mistake for a person who's fingers was never in danger..
@@jimnoneya3919 100% they do. I supposedly one of the most dangerous ever made. At least if you listen to John Malaki. I own 3 shop smith I do not use the upper or lower saw guard. I have been using them 40 years without issue and I have not even lost a finger nail yet.
At age 70, I am down to my last three table saws built during the 1970's one of which I purchased brand new in 73. I still have all 10 fingers, none of which have never been close to being nicked. Never had a close call. I have my saws set up meticulously with special attention given to trunion setups. Early on, I developed good habits and focus. At the moment I made my cuts nothing in the world existed except for my precious fingers, my push sticks, the saw blade and my cut. If my mind wasn't ready to cut wood, I never turned on the saw. . . . . You see from age 15, I love playing the guitar and I need all ten fingers! Just some thoughts that got me to where I am today.
Well said. I started learning woodworking age 8 in my dads shop. I have never pushed a board into a table saw blade in a manor that my hand could end up in the blade. Even if a kick back. Push sticks push blocks and common sense is much much cheaper and safer.
i'm 74 i always buy 50 dollar craftsman table saws off craigslist. i chopped off 1/8 inch of my left index finger, i just washed it wrapped it in paper towel electrician tape and went to bed. it healed pretty fast. it was fascinating to watch it heal. luckily it was my left hand. i like to keep my stuff simple,. i hate this high tech shit.
I am a machinist, we had many tools without guards. I was taught to follow a safe procedures when running the equipment and trained my apprentices the same way I had been trained. We never had any problems, I taught them where to stand how to position their hands and to respect the equipment, when to wear gloves and when to not wear them, that said when they added safety systems to the equipment it made things a lot safer and I welcomed the improvements. The machines are fully enclosed now and the doors have locks on them, you can't open the door when the spindles ae running. It is much safer.
@@davidbrennan5 I took machine tooling at vo tech in highschool. I seen first hand what happens when you do not respect the equipment. A guy a few machines over on a 13 in swing Webb lathe sanding a 1inch shaft at around 2000RPM. He wrapped the sand paper ends together they grabbed and it wound him up in the machine. Before the guy next to him could stomp the brake it had snapped both arms in many places removed a ear and half his face and removed his pony tail. He ended up with head between the ways and the 3 jaw chuck!!! Mark my words I have never got my sand paper ends wrapped around a spinning shaft in my life. Not ever! I do not use a tool if I do not understand the physical properties and forces it creates. It messed him up pretty bad for life.
@@jvmiller1995 - Some people rely on equipment like Sawstop. I'm more of a behavior guy. Well before Sawstop, my uncle use to say "that blades not gonna stop just because your finger's there" and now there's Sawstop but I'd rather rely on good habits. I've had two major kickbacks in the past 50 or so years and I attribute those to habits I needed to change. * Don't stand in a kickback path ever, , , (I learned that the hard way with kickback number one) * Set the trunion up properly. * Use pushsticks that will flex or pivot your wrists in the event of a kickback and not jam the pushstick into your wrist. *Some folks say they're too short to stand out of the way. I say use longer push sticks. When I stood by any power tool and asked myself "what could go wrong" BEFORE turning on the power switch, I developed good habits and tried my best to think of good solutions . . . . Just some thoughts. Best Wishes and Kind Regards, Tom
Two friends with two different experiences. One has half a thumb. The other has a piece of steel, carbide, aluminum wall art / safety reminder and not even a scar.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I recently bought a Sawstop and very glad I did. 'Better safe than sorry' and 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure' might be old adages, but that doesn't make them any less relevant, especially around tools that can take your fingers off. Compensates a little bit for 'that one mistake could be your last'.
Better 500 for parts etc, than thousands upon thousands to get your finger/thumb reattached along with all of the pain and rehab... Good luck and have a happy new year! 👍👍
About 45 yrs. ago a kickback with a dado blade sliced into 3 fingers of my left hand. 3-4 stitches in 2 of them. Luckily it didn’t hit any bones. PTSD for several months before attempting to use the saw again. And then with a new respect. 44 years later I bought a SawStop. Wished I’d bought one sooner.
Very good to know. I own two of the Sawstops and will be buying a third. I’ll definitely think twice before buying my next dado stack. Thanks again for the video.
John!!!! As soon as I saw the full-bodied chippers in one of those first shots, I knew exactly what it happened. Same thing happened to me this year on my ICS after running into a pin nail with my Oshlun set. Saw stop says not to use full-bodied chippers, but I didn’t realize it until it was too late. Had about 10 thou runout at the end of a 10” blade (2 thousandths on the arbor itself). Fortunately, I was able to find a brand new arbor on eBay if you can believe it, for about $250. I think they’re sold for about 4-450 from saw stop, so it’s not the end of the world, and it was surprisingly easy to install. (keep in mind, however, that’s coming from a guy who at one point completely disassembled two different saw stops to create the one good one that I have now!) Feel free to reach out if you have questions along the way.
John: Here at our shop (retirement community) I am one of 3 shop members certified to work on the saw stop. THANK you for the wedge idea. I have changed I don't know how many activated brake cartridges (only one with a dado), including an activation by MY thumb. Also including two activations by misuse of that exact same jig you were using. I will tell you this: When I ran my thumb over the top of the blade - it happened exactly as you demonstrated!. I only used one(1) regular band aid over the top of my thumb In less than 10 minutes I had the saw up and running, as we keep extra brake cartridges and a brand new blade on hand at all times. Remember, when the blade contacts skin, it not only stops turning in less that 5 milliseconds, and the braking software instantly drops the blade below the table top AWAY from your fingers.
I did the exact same thing. Cutting tenons on chair stretchers. Turned the miter gauge to match the degree shoulder and didn't think about the fence on the miter gauge moving into the blade path as it was adjusted for nearly zero clearance when square. Scared the crap out of me and really frustrated me that I didn't think about the miter gauge fence. But, the saw did what it was supposed to do. Expensive and time consuming, but could be worse.
Sorry for the inconvenience, glad you weren't injured. I think those of us who work with power tools eventually all have experiences where we've made errors and had the potential for injury. My angle grinders seem to have lost their blood lust once I stopped using them incorrectly!
Speaking of 4 1/2" angle grinders, I was once on my knees grinding a protruding stud level with the flooring when the grinder jumped and went right across my left kneecap. As you know, it happens and is done before you can even blink. Luckily for me, I was wearing an inexpensive, uncomfortable pair of relatively stiff, hard polymer knee pads. The grinding wheel ground a slot about 3/8" deep across the pad, saving my kneecap.
John. Very glad you did not get hurt. It was costly, but to put a positive spin on the event you could call it an in service test of a safety device, and that safety device passed. 👍
I think the sawstop is great I lost part of thumb On another the thumb and cause serious nerve damage it took months to heal plus I had to have surgery on nerve.... I like saw stop it's the best in mind
As soon as I saw the dado stack and the metal fence on the miter gauge I knew what happened. This is why I always use the left miter slot when cutting with a dado stack. That side of the blade never changes position no matter how thick your stack.
Sharing our "Ouch, I learned from that" life lessons is amongst the most loving, valuable acts a human being can do and amongst the best ways of improving the world. I'm convinced the parts of our brain that do our "believing" only learn by experience, either direct or virtual, such as by watching what happens to others and hearing stories. I have no doubt you have helped make the world a better place by sharing this experience. Thank you! . And I agree with you and others in the comments that SawStop and similar safety technologies are relative bargains. For just one example, my mom's close friend's husband, a hobbyist woodworker for decades, accidentally ran the four palm fingers on his left hand across his table saw blade, severing all four from his hand. I didn't hear what happened after that, but it had to be way more expensive in suffering, money and lost productivity than replacing tooling. #Don'tBePennyWise&PoundFoolish #SafetyIsAHassleUntilItIsn't
I love the idea that a table saw like the sawstop can protect my hand/fingers ... but it seems to shut down for many reasons. Definitely not cheap and I just wish it was engineered some what differently.
Glad you weren't hurt and the saw can hopefully be repaired. As with anything new there is always a learning curve. Hopefully this will never be repeated, thanks for finding out what the problem was and what had caused it, might help save one of your viewers the same problem in the future.
It takes maturity, honesty and bravery to face and take responsibility for your own mistakes, even more so to publish it for the world to see. Well done sir.
Shortly after I got my Sawstop I did exactly the same thing. Happened so fast it took several seconds for me to realize what happened. The assembly is hanging from a nail on my shop wall as a reminder.
Great video. The taco comment was the best. You and I have been in the EMS business and having transported patients with their fingers in a ziplock I think this saw is great!
Yup as said below. Tilted the blade a little, did not move the miter gauge enough. Saw did just what it is supposed to. VERY minor nick on the aluminum. Good lesson. Would not trade the safety away for anything. I did hang cartridge and blade on the wall to remind me not to make dumb mistakes. I love the piece of mind.
True story. The guitar builder I was briefly apprenticed to had an issue with a skilsaw. He was cutting a board, and it kicked back out of his hands. When it did, he went to grab it out of reflex and had his fingers cut off his left hand. For the most part, they were reattached, but it was years of pain and I don't know how much rehab to get any use of them again. That said, he still plays guitar better than I do.
I did the same thing last week with the dado blades installed. It took a while to get the blades off but in the process I learned that if you lower the blades to the lowest position they came off easier for me. If it happens again you might try doing this,
Yeah.... that's a costly one, sorry to hear :(. SawStop ownership has meant the need to implement extra precautionary steps to avoid these kinds of accidents. For me it's just before making the cut after setup and using a miter gauge, run the gauge through the cut to see if it's going to touch the blade or get too close. Also worth watching the light on the control unit as you run the gauge near the blade to see if it starts blinking as that will tell you if it would go off. Another thing I've found is if you're using any kind of aluminum / metal on your fence, it needs to be at least 1/2 inch away from the blade to avoid setting off the brake. I have the Jobsite Pro saw and I use the BOW aluminum extender fence (which I highly recommend if you're using a smaller saw like this), and I noticed when I had to do a small cut that with that fence within 1/2 inch of the blade the control unit light was blinking. The blade wasn't making contact with the fence, nor would it even if it had some how flexed during the cut, but the saw didn't like it. So I just added a temp plywood fence to it and no issues.
I unfortunately had a tablesaw accident about 5 weeks ago now and I got really lucky and only got the tip of my thumb and nicked the bone. A sawstop is not affordable to me currently but down the road I will purchase one. Thankfully as you said it was the miter sled that hit it and not your finger. Thanks for sharing
Biggest remedy for keeping all your fingers is don’t stick them where they don’t belong. I worked in an industrial sawmill for fifty years as a saw filer and had handled just about everything that shaped or cut wood. Never cut or lost a digit in all those years. Common sense and caution will take you far. Auto stop????
Several years ago while butchering firewood on a circular saw I pushed cut wood away & the blade went right through the bone in my thumb. Extraordinary skill by the plastic surgeons put it back together. & now it is not noticeable. Would I swap this experience for $600, yes in a heart beat. Thank you for sharing!
I'm in Sawstop Facebook groups and, of course, there have many posted activation stories...but never heard of anyone having a bent arbor because of it. Could it possibly have been how you took it out with the wedges? I have two Sawstop saws and I'm just waiting for this to happen to me one day. I believe the odds of such an activation are inversely related to whether you have an extra cartridge on hand. If you have one close by, your chances of an activation go way down. So I keep an extra of both brakes in my shop. 😉 Now that you have extras, you can safely go for years!
What gets me is that the tablesaw will be the only tool in the shop that is somewhat safe. What about all the other power tools you need to use. I think the best solution is to focus intently on what your doing, unless you have tons of money .
Most of the woodworkers with missing fingers I've encountered over the years lost them on a table saw. I have several older vehicles without airbags, consider myself a safe driver and have no plans on getting in an accident. Should i go out and disable the airbags on my newer car? I certainly don't get offended by people that drive new cars with improved safety features.
@@JohnSwitzer nothing is with hidden cost, Other common injuries from airbags include: Whiplash Traumatic brain injuries Neck and spine injuries Facial injuries Chest injuries Soft tissue injuries Internal injuries
@@JohnSwitzer No don't. As long as you don't sit too close to the steering wheel etc, they're much better than crashing into parts of the car. Just watch a couple hours worth of crash test video's and you can see in slow motion what happens in a crash with no airbags. You can be the best driver in the world, all it takes is one speeding drunk to blow thru a red light...
@@JohnSwitzer Older cars with older airbags (like Takata - pre massive recall) were kind of dangerous, but still 'on average' better than none at all. There's always these anecdotal stores of people getting killed by seatbelts too, but the proof is in the numbers. Law of large numbers, there will always be exceptions out there, but people have survived playing Russian roulette too. Does it mean that's a good idea? Heck no. Modern cars have smarter airbags that don't blow up with full force unless needed. Same with side curtain airbags that only go off if you get T-bones. Nothing's perfect, but seatbelts don't do a lot to stop your head from smashing into the B pillar without side airbags.
We run one in our shop. We’ve discovered that even wood that had a few raindrops on it would set it off. Oddly enough we got halfway through a sheet of polycarbonate mirror before it set itself off.
Very good video. I was already convinced of the safety advantage of the SawStop which is why I bought their jobsite version. But pushing to thinking about possible integrity issues for the dado stack and also the possible bending of the arbor? Really important for extending the thinking about both precision and safety.
I have used a Wood Master/ Shop Smith for 35 years. A few years before that with a regular table saw, the last 4 with a 36” SawStop. I wanted something that was very accurate and repeatable cuts. Most importantly I now have a grandson who I maybe teaching later on. I have never had any issues, however I definitely don’t want my grandson to have any. Thank you very much for the video ❤
I had to replace the sawstop break 3 times this year two times my coworker touched the blade ,and the most recent he forgot to bypass it and tried to cut aluminum. I had accidentally cut staples and nails before and did not trip but materials with high conductivity like cooper and aluminum will. your meterage is probability aluminum ,and that will do it
The place I worked had a brand new sawstop. It would start all on his own. No joke came in the morning it was running. It did this many times. Had to replace electronics in it.
3 activations here, none involving fingers. One was a dropped glue bottle on the final spin of the blade. Next was cutting through a looses tenon where the glue still hadn't completely dried after 3 days. I can't remember what the 3rd one was but it was something dumb. I always keep a spare.
@John Switzer absolutely agree, what is your life and health worth to you vs a saw blade and brake? While I dont own (but wish I did) a saw stop, and plan to purchase one down the road. I feel its worth the potential repair headaches to have that piece of mind if you eff around and find out you wont find out.
Honestly, Sawstop never made much sense to me to begin with. I've known several people who've injured themselves on a table saw, and in every case it was kickback that caused the problem... in which case the blade wouldn't stop until it was too late anyway. Fighting kickback is the best way to avoid accidents and injury on a tablesaw.
It's certainly true that kickback is a big problem. But kickback is also a big reason fingers get pulled into a blade. Sort of like how seat belts and air bags don't prevent accidents, they just reduce the severity of the injuries
Me? I'd get rid of the metal rail on the miter gauge. Using a wood rail that can be replaced over time gives you many advantages. Sorry about the injury to your wallet, but certainly glad it stopped there. I suppose a dial indicator and magnetic base is going to be your next expense??
Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing. It's probably good that you are now "worried" about getting injured, *and* also worried about having to pay to fix your saw again. You'll be doubly careful, going forward! If this had happened to me, I'd be thinking about whether I could add something to my miter gauge that would make this less likely to occur in the future. (sacrificial wooden extension or something)
It happened to my Grandpa, he didn’t have the Stop, went between his pointer, and thumb! He was using a dado stack, luckily, he was only taking, three eights out! The surgeon repaired everything, but the thumb was stuck in the out position for the rest of his life!
I had a brake cartridge trigger while cutting gold gilded picture frame molding. Yeah! That was a big surprise. I did not think it was even metal let alone enough to trigger the Sawstop.
Can’t wait to upgrade myself. People do dumb stuff, but we’re smart enough to know we do those dumb things. That’s why we build things to help stop us from hurting ourselves while we do dumb stuff. Just walking into an ER, with insurance, costs more than a new base model contractor size sawstop. Without insurance and a serious injury? Coulda bought the biggest and baddest beast with every option AND put it inside that new 20x30 metal building with the best dust extraction system. Stay safe out there. Work smart. Upgrade smart.
Could’ve ordered the cartridge from Amazon and saved yourself the trip. If I’m not mistaken the brake feature can be disabled and the saw will run without it. You look competent enough not to cut off a finger while you wait a day or two for parts.
John, I have moved away from using the dado blade after talking to some European woodworkers. Mostly now I use a router in a router table instead. I think it is safer
I mean even in this scenario where it wasn't your thumb or something I feel like it triggering on the contact with the miter fence probably still saved you from a potential safety situation.
They are such a pain on the job site. With all the false triggers and cartriges not aways in stock I used to carry 3 in my truck all the time so I could zip to a job and get the guys saw fixed. I'd say in a year I replaced 10 or so at $60 plus a new blade. I was taught how to properly use a TS in 8th grade wood shop. 40 years as a remodel carpenter with no flesh/blade contacts. Use your riving knives, splitters, feather boards and hold down style push sticks and most of all listen to the voice in your head calling you an idiot, it's never just one quick cut.
John, I’ve had my sawstop almost 20 yrs. After I cut the tip of my middle finger off. Tripped the brake 4 times - always hitting a screw or nail. Careless on my part. I only use Ridge Carbide Blades now. They survived the last 2 incidents. I still sent them into Ridge for sharpening & inspection. No problems. I won’t run a stack on my saw for general safety reasons. I cut dadoes by hand & or with a flat top blade. I’ll never run a saw without a safety brake, too much risk for a me (& my wife). Now that the patent has been relinquished, I expect competition to drive down the cost for safety. Good on Sawstop!
I have a radial arm saw and a wobble dado from the the 1960s. The dado scares the bejesus out of me, so much so that I do almost anything to avoid using it. My intention is to never take it out of its case again. I guess that makes it pretty safe.
Any good saw blade sharpening service can deal with the blade. I teach furniture making and we have two big 5HP SawStop. Only environment I would have one. They are not that great of a table saw that are way overpriced and they do not stop serious injuries (tech support is great tho). One of my instructors nearly lost half of his index finger on a dado blade. You should have known to keep an extra cartridge on hand when you bought the saw as a nail, staple-any metal will trip it along with wet wood or moisture in the wood like maybe a glue up. The glue can still be wet after several hours of drying.
I had my finger hanging over the back of a piece of wood on the buzzer, "planer" .middle finger, right hand. Cost over$6000 Au. Lucky medical insurance covered $5000 of that. Finger needed rebuilt cos the finger pad was gone to the first joint. Just the nail and skin was left. Plastic surgeon fixed it up great but the finger remains bent and stiff. This happened in a instant of missattention one sunday afternoon at home. Was using a 6 inch buzzer but normally was using a 20 inch monster in my job at the time. Bloody lucky. I can still feel the plades hitting my finger if I close my eyes and think about it, even after 9 years. Three blades hit. Be carefull out there people! Machinery can and WILL bite! G'day from Tasmania
I had to look up what a "daddo stack" was! Also interesting you can rebuild the saw, I thought the saw stop system basically was the end of the saw when it fired. My father put his thumb into a table saw blade when i was a kid, it was the briefest touch, but it was a mess, it went deep enough to fill the wound full of bone shards, and yes, it was probably 6 months before fully healed.
Yeah, when you were pounding on the wedges to get the stack off, I was worried about your arbor. It seemed like a lot of uneven impact, forcing the stack out at the top as the wedge drove in, which might bend the arbor down. I hope the damage isn’t too hard or expensive to fix! I’m glad to have seen how tough it was to get the stack off. That seems like something Sawstop would have engineered a better solution for, if one was possible. I’ve assumed for years I’d get a Sawstop when I bought a cabinet saw, but for a number of reasons I’m looking at a Harvey instead, and that arbor issue is a little sobering. (BTW, your point about how much meat a dado stack could grind is well-taken, but I think I’d likely run mine with the brake disabled - my big blade fears come into play with a blade above the workpiece, I think I’d feel ok about dealing with just the exit point of a dado or groove.)
much lighter than pounding and with the wedges it moved pretty easily. It would take much more than that to bend the 5/8" steel of the arbor. I think the problem is more from the dado stack I was using. Since this happened I found out Sawstop recommends against using dados with full chippers. What I had is about double the weight of the Sawstop dado with the same setup.
If you ever switch to a high tpi carbide tipped blade to cut some sheet plastics, just know certain kinds like mirrored material will set off your break. Gotta bypass at all times
First things first......Thank you for your service as a First Responder. I believe SawStop will cover the cost of the arbor, or anything else, except the brake cartridge, that may have been damaged, depending on how long you've had this saw. Is your saw still under warranty?? If not, they might not cover ancillary damages. When the brake eats a saw blade, consider it trash. Even if the carbides appear to be intact, they can come off the blade much easier than they should be, under normal conditions. Most of the time, when the brake fires, it's user error. I was using a friends SawStop when the brake fired. I got distracted by something while using it, and the blade nicked the side of my left hand between my wrist and pinky finger. I only had to wash my hands, and apply a Band-Aid, and then go home to shower and put on some clean clothes, if you understand what I mean. I offered to replace the blade and the brake, he refused saying that, knowing how well the saw works, was payment enough. I looked online to find out the cost of everything, and that Christmas, I gave him a gift card to his favorite lumber yard for double the cost of what the replacement parts was. He said I didn't have to do that, and I said, if you didn't have that SawStop, my expenses would have been MUCH HIGHER. I seriously do hope that SawStop covers the parts needed, but if not, at least you and I both learned a very valuable lesson.
My biggest gripe would be that it doesn't need to have the break, it could just as easily drop the blade/motor assembly and let the blade come to a stop on its own. But that wouldn't make them gobs of money.
An annoyance with project delayed but I am glad you’re accepting the situation. The balance between the system working and it being possible to trip accidentally are intrinsically linked. Taking it in stride, being understanding, logical, is the big takeaway for me. Life happens.
My only brake activation so far was the exact same reason - mitre gauge. Luckily for me, the blade was OK and no damage to the arbor. But a humbling experience nonetheless.
I have been a woodworker all my life, well from about 12 years old and I just turned 76. I started using table saws when I was 13 and have worked as a armature as well as a professional. I can report that I happily have all my digits and never had even a near miss. But looking at your issue with this failure to have the saw stop could have been even larger accident that if it were your thumb. The fact that it was the crosscut device that hit the blade without the saw stop the spinning blade and aluminum guide could have produced bits of metal flying around or a serious kick back that could have resulted in personal injury to your body from the waist up. So get out in your shop, be safe, wear your safety glasses.... well do that sign off better than me....
I’ve done it three times it’s the metal cross cut attachment touching the blade look on the corner of your cross cut attachment. You’ll find a Nick out of it.
Just remember, $600 is so much cheaper than paying a Dr to put your fingers back on. Not to mention the loss of income while recovering. Keep making videos!
See, this is one of those things you learn from experience, "honey I have to go to the wood working store, want to come?" she is like hmmm.... " we can get tacos on the way back!" and that makes it worth it for her lol, you don't have to drive all those hours alone and wifey and you get tacos everyone wins, except the bank account..... you guys thought I was going to say something else about the experience but keeping the wife happy is always a priority for a married man.
John, thank you for telling this story! My cousin is a professional woodworker, who just lost his fingers to a table saw. It is still unknown whether the surgery was successful. Meanwhile, I am trying to get him on the idea of the sawstop. Thank you again and good luck with the repair! Really, it is much better to pay $600 but keep all your fingers.
Re: time off after accident. Last year, had a saw accident and went to the emergency room. The surgeon informed he had seen a lot of woodworkers and advised I cut the finger off if I wanted to be back at work quickly. Yes he asked me during surgery. I said no but it was 3 months.
Considering $1,800 is just the cover charge for an emergency room visit these days, a $100 SawStop cartridge is a great deal.
1800…for a Nurse to say…’oooh that looks nasty’ and put a band aid on it. In UK that would cost me, let’s see…ummmm….oh yeah….Nothing! Ambulance into Emergency…Nothing, Having the wound stitched….Nothing, tetanus shots and antibiotics…Nothing, overnight care for observation….Nothing! The US medical system is a bad joke that leaves you crying and bankrupt unless you pay a fortune every month for insurance….SMH.
@@contessa.adella Everyone pays for healthcare, either through insurance, directly or to the tax man :)
@@nisse68 Literally (literally literally) no one thinks healthcare doesn't cost anything at all. "Free" means free at the point of use so you don't need to worry about costs when you get hurt or ill, with those costs being spread out over a lifetime of taxes (or, in countries like Germany, a lifetime of insurance contributions)
@@contessa.adellashows what you know - Barrack Obama fixed the US healthcare system………………….
5k just to walk in the ER in Winston-Salem NC
42 years using a table saw. Never had an incident until 2 months ago. End of long day of cutting (8 hours). Getting tired but pushed for one more hour. Minutes after that decision, three fingers across the blade on left hand. Tip of one finger peeled back with 5 stiches. 8 stitches in the other and third one nicked. No stitches. One week later with pressure to get job completed. Third cut of the morning compensating for left hand, run thumb of right hand across the blade. 1/2" wide swath pushing waste to the side. No chance for stitches. Just wrapped up to heal. Hands still not 100%.
Heard of the saw stop and purchased it immediately.
Hopefully never have to go through this again.
Cost of the saw $$$$ Saving a finger or two.......... Priceless!!!!!
Always listen to your body when its telling you your done for the day.
It is a worthwhile purchase for a klutz like myself.
Ow! I'm glad you are mostly OK. That's why I got the SawStop, just in case. I'd rather go thru a little extra pain and cost dealing with something like this guy did, than be missing fingers.
What do you do that you use a table saw for 8 hours a day?
@@bmw9616I bet he's cutting boards with it.
I'm reminded of the saying "Stupidity _should_ hurt; it keeps us from repeating the same mistake again." Thank you for sharing _your_ 'stupidity', as it will serve as a good warning for the rest of us. (I, for example, would have probably have made *_exactly_* the same mistake if I had been in your place. Now--hopefully--I never will, thanks to your humility.)
...and this has made me even more determined to get a SawStop once I can afford to have my own shop. I've made enough expensive mistakes in my time to look at having to shell out $150 for a new cartridge as getting off cheaply!
injuries that could potentially kill you are not life lessons, what a pathetic takeaway.
@@TiBiAstro "injuries that could potentially kill you are not life lessons"
...only if you don't learn from them. For those of us who *_are_* willing to learn from our mistakes, they teach us things that we can use to prevent worse mistakes.
I've owned a Saw Stop PCS since 2009. In those 15 years I've set the blade brake off twice - both times in the last 12 months. Both incidents involved operator error - a nice way of saying "my stupidity." Neither resulted in any injury whatsoever, other than to my wallet and pride. The first incident involved the dado stack. I switched from a single blade to my dado stack and changed the cartridge. As you mention in the video, the gap between the blade brake and dado stack has to be adjusted to maintain the proper gap. This is a routine adjustment that I've done hundreds of times. Unfortunately, on this occasion, my change over routine was interrupted by a phone call and I never reset the gap. When I started the saw the dado stack contacted the blade brake and set it off. About $150 later (blade brake plus repairs to a couple chipped teeth on the dado), I was back in business. The new dado blade brake now comes with a warning to users to always reset the gap when installing the dado brake. Guess I'm not the only idiot.
The second involved my standard, single blade brake. This brake, by the way, was the original brake that came with my saw. It was the first table saw cut of the day and after I powered the saw up it went through its usual blinking lights while the system ran through its checks. Instead of a solid green light, the saw had a solid red light. "Huh" I said to myself, "never saw that before." At this point I should have bent over and looked at the chart on the saw's power box to learn that a solid red light means "replace cartridge." But, no, I used the universal technology solution of turning the saw off waiting a few seconds and turned the saw back on. This time I got the normal solid green light, so I turned the blade on. Within seconds (and before the work piece touched the blade) the brake fired and my day took a turn for the worse.
I contacted Saw Stop and they sent me a return label so they could diagnose the problem with the blade cartridge. There's also a on-line form you fill out. If the brake failure is a problem with the brake, Saw Stop sends you a new brake for free. My diagnostic report showed that my 15 year old cartridge had a build up of dust and "schmutz" inside that had accumulated over years of use. I do clean out my saw interior from time to time but I never did anything special to the cartridge. So, the new cartridge was on me but my Forrest WW2 blade only needed to be resharpened. Next time I think I'll check the chart if I see red and green lights blinking in some odd manner. I'll probably also hit that cartridge with a little compressed air from time to time. Lessons learned.
You didn’t think they would take the blame. 😀
Thanks for sharing. You turned an oops into a teaching moment.
Hi John, as a former metallurgist I can say that the blade will not have suffered from fatigue. As the name suggests fatigue happens over time and is not the result of something sudden and catastrophic. The two types of damage that could occur would be the blade being bent or a stress fracture. You can obviously use a straight edge to check the shape and watch it when it's spinning. To test for a fracture you can buy a dye penetrant test kit which are very cheap (£22 in the UK). You spray on a red dye that has ultra low viscosity and sinks into any crack no matter how small, even to the naked eye. Then you wipe it all off and spray on a white powder. Any red dye that has found its way into a crack will leech out and be exposed by the powder. To check for internal cracks you can rap a metal punch against it. If the sound changes over any area then there is damage. Of course the only way to be 100% sure would be to have the blades x-rayed or by using ultra sound but I've never heard of a blade shattering and flying apart and I've watched quite a few You Tube videos where people have intentionally activated the brake. Glad you're safe and enjoying your channel.
Thanks for the tips
A bent blade is easy to spot, but a stress fracture is not. I would be very cautious using it again. Maybe send it back to the manufacturer and let them check it.
They stop so fast I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't motor armature, shaft or bearing damage.
Paulhume8083 the blade is now junk and saw stop doesn't recommend reusing the blade and blades are cheap to just replace its not worth the risk that it could come apart
@@JohnSwitzerplease don't reuse the blades there not safe anymore there wall art now
this is a great example of how well the saw stop actually works. If that was your thumb, all you had needed was a small bandaid, but without it you'd be in the emergency room. Thanks for uploading this video!
if if if if if. if that was his thumb perhaps he shouldn't even be using a tablesaw in the first place. well it wasn't.
@@debandmike3380 That's like saying "If you had dropped the bowl, maybe you shouldn't be eating soup in the first place".
People make mistakes all the time, ESPECIALLY around objects they've used thousands of times and are familiar with. It happens. It's why this brake exists.
I tripped mine on my ICS about 18 months ago with a Woodworker II and my miter gauge. It bent the blade and arbor. When I spoke to Sawstop about it the engineer told me there is a sensor in the arbor assembly and that when a lot of home shop users attempt to change only the shaft, they damage it. This in turn requires the whole arbor assembly to be changed. So I purchased the assembly for $463 plus tax and shipping. The procedure is pretty simple and once you remove your outfeed table, fence rails, and cast iron top you have great access to the assembly, so it’s only a 5-6 hour job if you’re working fast 😮 mine took around 7 hours.
Last week I was using the saw and moved the incra miter gauge from some odd angle back close to 90°, adjusted the fence out of the way of the blade, and then noticed it wasn’t exactly at 90°. I moved it and didn’t notice the little adjustment moved the dang fence back into the blade path, shortly after made a cut, and destroyed my other woodworker II that I’ve been using since 2007. This time the arbor was unbent, so it was only a $400 mistake instead of a $900 mistake.
I have a sawstop, and in spite of the cost of brakes, and such, I am glad that I paid the money to get it. It has saved my hand twice.
I haven't set off my sawstop yet (and I hope to not) but it's nice insurance. Replacing a whole PCS is cheaper than so many medical procedures to fingers. If you have the cash for upfront investment it's a great purchase.
I learned the same lesson exactly the same way, except with a 10” blade rather than a dado stack. Definitely a learning experience - I now check the miter gauge for clearance after every change in settings. In my case the brake and blade were locked together, so I hung them above the saw as a reminder.
Hey John-Great presentation. I formerly had a woodworking shop in the basement of an apartment building I used to own. A tenant who I trusted and who was very talented asked to use my SawStop cabinet saw to cut wood for a bed he was making, and I said yes. Later, when I resumed using the saw, I set off the brake cartridge. Turns out the tenant had reset the fence on my crosscut jig, and it contacted the saw blade, setting off the brake. In the 15 years that I owned the saw (I bought one of the earliest saws imported by SawStop) it activated the brake cartridges 4 times. Never because human flesh touched the blade, just metal in the wood, and so on. One time the blade was undamaged, but the other 3 times I sent the blades back to Forrest to be repaired. Forrest did okay by me and my SawStop! I was extremely pleased with this saw, its build quality and its safety. I feel exactly as you do about preventing a catastofic disaster to my hand. When Fine Woodworking Magazine had a blog about this, I wrote them a letter, part of which was published in a later edition.
Good luck. I am surprised the arbor bent. A Sawstop is well worth the money. I do not regret my purchase.
After 25+ years, I managed to run two fingers thru the edge of the blade. There was a hand surgeon on duty at the hospital and he removed one entire nail and stitched the other finger. My middle finger is slightly thinner and the ring finger is lookin' good. I had to have three months of therapy to get the full use of my left fingers. This was five years ago.
I bet the arbor bent due to the added rotational inertia of the dado stack vs a normal saw blade. Since the SawStop is just munching down on one side of the blade to stop it, the reaction force is going to be pushing laterally on the arbor. More rotational inertia slowing down at a similar rate means more force bending the arbor.
I have a SawStop and triggered the cartridge with a dado stack. Unfortunately, I was using a stack with solid chippers. In their manual, SawStop recommends not to use solid chippers. The mass can be too great for the arbor. I did bend my arbor and had to replace the entire arbor assembly. Lesson learned, I have now read my SawStop manual cover to cover. The saw has saved me twice from serious injury, and I am thankful to have purchased it 19 years ago.
That is what I was starting to suspect, although I haven't been able to find that in my manual, just not more than 13/16 thick. What was involved in replacing the arbor?
TWICE? maybe you should take up crochet.
If it has saved you twice from injury than you should rethink if this entire woodworking thing is for you! What if it was the router table, jointer or a tool that does not account for stupidity? 48 years old started using equipment in dads shop at age 8 (not table saw but still stuff you do not want the hand in) I still have all fingers and only ever had one almost real bad brush with the router that remover a thumb print, (I was lucky) but it was my own stupidity as I said this might be a bad Idea when I started. But I learned and if I do not feel 100% on what I am doing I leave the machine off. This is a expensive mistake for a person who's fingers was never in danger..
@jvmiller1995 I am a proponent of safety, but I think that sometimes safety measures/gaurds/devices can make us complacent.
@@jimnoneya3919 100% they do. I supposedly one of the most dangerous ever made. At least if you listen to John Malaki. I own 3 shop smith I do not use the upper or lower saw guard. I have been using them 40 years without issue and I have not even lost a finger nail yet.
At age 70, I am down to my last three table saws built during the 1970's one of which I purchased brand new in 73. I still have all 10 fingers, none of which have never been close to being nicked. Never had a close call. I have my saws set up meticulously with special attention given to trunion setups. Early on, I developed good habits and focus. At the moment I made my cuts nothing in the world existed except for my precious fingers, my push sticks, the saw blade and my cut. If my mind wasn't ready to cut wood, I never turned on the saw. . . . . You see from age 15, I love playing the guitar and I need all ten fingers! Just some thoughts that got me to where I am today.
Well said. I started learning woodworking age 8 in my dads shop. I have never pushed a board into a table saw blade in a manor that my hand could end up in the blade. Even if a kick back. Push sticks push blocks and common sense is much much cheaper and safer.
i'm 74 i always buy 50 dollar craftsman table saws off craigslist. i chopped off 1/8 inch of my left index finger, i just washed it wrapped it in paper towel electrician tape and went to bed. it healed pretty fast. it was fascinating to watch it heal. luckily it was my left hand. i like to keep my stuff simple,. i hate this high tech shit.
I am a machinist, we had many tools without guards. I was taught to follow a safe procedures when running the equipment and trained my apprentices the same way I had been trained. We never had any problems, I taught them where to stand how to position their hands and to respect the equipment, when to wear gloves and when to not wear them, that said when they added safety systems to the equipment it made things a lot safer and I welcomed the improvements. The machines are fully enclosed now and the doors have locks on them, you can't open the door when the spindles ae running. It is much safer.
@@davidbrennan5 I took machine tooling at vo tech in highschool. I seen first hand what happens when you do not respect the equipment. A guy a few machines over on a 13 in swing Webb lathe sanding a 1inch shaft at around 2000RPM. He wrapped the sand paper ends together they grabbed and it wound him up in the machine. Before the guy next to him could stomp the brake it had snapped both arms in many places removed a ear and half his face and removed his pony tail. He ended up with head between the ways and the 3 jaw chuck!!! Mark my words I have never got my sand paper ends wrapped around a spinning shaft in my life. Not ever! I do not use a tool if I do not understand the physical properties and forces it creates. It messed him up pretty bad for life.
@@jvmiller1995 - Some people rely on equipment like Sawstop. I'm more of a behavior guy. Well before Sawstop, my uncle use to say "that blades not gonna stop just because your finger's there" and now there's Sawstop but I'd rather rely on good habits. I've had two major kickbacks in the past 50 or so years and I attribute those to habits I needed to change.
* Don't stand in a kickback path ever, , , (I learned that the hard way with kickback number one)
* Set the trunion up properly.
* Use pushsticks that will flex or pivot your wrists in the event of a kickback and not jam the pushstick into your wrist.
*Some folks say they're too short to stand out of the way. I say use longer push sticks.
When I stood by any power tool and asked myself "what could go wrong" BEFORE turning on the power switch, I developed good habits and tried my best to think of good solutions
. . . . Just some thoughts.
Best Wishes and Kind Regards,
Tom
Two friends with two different experiences. One has half a thumb. The other has a piece of steel, carbide, aluminum wall art / safety reminder and not even a scar.
Are you saying the sawstop failed for the first guy or he didn't have one?
@@mr.picklesworth Sounds like the first one didn't have one, the second one did - hence the wall art of the brake
Thanks for sharing your experience. I recently bought a Sawstop and very glad I did. 'Better safe than sorry' and 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure' might be old adages, but that doesn't make them any less relevant, especially around tools that can take your fingers off. Compensates a little bit for 'that one mistake could be your last'.
Better 500 for parts etc, than thousands upon thousands to get your finger/thumb reattached along with all of the pain and rehab... Good luck and have a happy new year! 👍👍
After seeing the damage that a table saw did to my neighbors fingers, buying a sawstop was a no brainer.
About 45 yrs. ago a kickback with a dado blade sliced into 3 fingers of my left hand. 3-4 stitches in 2 of them. Luckily it didn’t hit any bones. PTSD for several months before attempting to use the saw again. And then with a new respect. 44 years later I bought a SawStop. Wished I’d bought one sooner.
Very good to know. I own two of the Sawstops and will be buying a third. I’ll definitely think twice before buying my next dado stack. Thanks again for the video.
Ty for sharing this very informative, just visited Colorado Springs , and sample tacos myself, some great eats. , glad you’re ok sir
John!!!! As soon as I saw the full-bodied chippers in one of those first shots, I knew exactly what it happened. Same thing happened to me this year on my ICS after running into a pin nail with my Oshlun set. Saw stop says not to use full-bodied chippers, but I didn’t realize it until it was too late. Had about 10 thou runout at the end of a 10” blade (2 thousandths on the arbor itself). Fortunately, I was able to find a brand new arbor on eBay if you can believe it, for about $250. I think they’re sold for about 4-450 from saw stop, so it’s not the end of the world, and it was surprisingly easy to install. (keep in mind, however, that’s coming from a guy who at one point completely disassembled two different saw stops to create the one good one that I have now!)
Feel free to reach out if you have questions along the way.
John: Here at our shop (retirement community) I am one of 3 shop members certified to work on the saw stop. THANK you for the wedge idea. I have changed I don't know how many activated brake cartridges (only one with a dado), including an activation by MY thumb. Also including two activations by misuse of that exact same jig you were using.
I will tell you this: When I ran my thumb over the top of the blade - it happened exactly as you demonstrated!.
I only used one(1) regular band aid over the top of my thumb In less than 10 minutes I had the saw up and running, as we keep extra brake cartridges and a brand new blade on hand at all times. Remember, when the blade contacts skin, it not only stops turning in less that 5 milliseconds, and the braking software instantly drops the blade below the table top AWAY from your fingers.
I did the exact same thing. Cutting tenons on chair stretchers. Turned the miter gauge to match the degree shoulder and didn't think about the fence on the miter gauge moving into the blade path as it was adjusted for nearly zero clearance when square. Scared the crap out of me and really frustrated me that I didn't think about the miter gauge fence. But, the saw did what it was supposed to do. Expensive and time consuming, but could be worse.
Sorry for the inconvenience, glad you weren't injured. I think those of us who work with power tools eventually all have experiences where we've made errors and had the potential for injury. My angle grinders seem to have lost their blood lust once I stopped using them incorrectly!
Speaking of 4 1/2" angle grinders, I was once on my knees grinding a protruding stud level with the flooring when the grinder jumped and went right across my left kneecap. As you know, it happens and is done before you can even blink. Luckily for me, I was wearing an inexpensive, uncomfortable pair of relatively stiff, hard polymer knee pads. The grinding wheel ground a slot about 3/8" deep across the pad, saving my kneecap.
John. Very glad you did not get hurt. It was costly, but to put a positive spin on the event you could call it an in service test of a safety device, and that safety device passed. 👍
I think the sawstop is great I lost part of thumb
On another the thumb and cause serious nerve damage it took months to heal plus I had to have surgery on nerve.... I like saw stop it's the best in mind
I've run a lot of dangerous tools ,but the table saw is the one tool that I am terrified of and try not to use
As soon as I saw the dado stack and the metal fence on the miter gauge I knew what happened. This is why I always use the left miter slot when cutting with a dado stack. That side of the blade never changes position no matter how thick your stack.
Sharing our "Ouch, I learned from that" life lessons is amongst the most loving, valuable acts a human being can do and amongst the best ways of improving the world. I'm convinced the parts of our brain that do our "believing" only learn by experience, either direct or virtual, such as by watching what happens to others and hearing stories. I have no doubt you have helped make the world a better place by sharing this experience. Thank you!
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And I agree with you and others in the comments that SawStop and similar safety technologies are relative bargains. For just one example, my mom's close friend's husband, a hobbyist woodworker for decades, accidentally ran the four palm fingers on his left hand across his table saw blade, severing all four from his hand. I didn't hear what happened after that, but it had to be way more expensive in suffering, money and lost productivity than replacing tooling. #Don'tBePennyWise&PoundFoolish #SafetyIsAHassleUntilItIsn't
I can see you was operating safely mine did that 2 times and I went back to old saw cause it’s to expensive to keep replacing
I love the idea that a table saw like the sawstop can protect my hand/fingers ... but it seems to shut down for many reasons. Definitely not cheap and I just wish it was engineered some what differently.
A piece of damp wood tripped mine. Expensive lesson. Been a lot more careful since.
Glad you weren't hurt and the saw can hopefully be repaired. As with anything new there is always a learning curve. Hopefully this will never be repeated, thanks for finding out what the problem was and what had caused it, might help save one of your viewers the same problem in the future.
It takes maturity, honesty and bravery to face and take responsibility for your own mistakes, even more so to publish it for the world to see. Well done sir.
Of all the tools I own. The table saw is the one I fear(respect) the most. Saws in general, but surely the table saw.
Shortly after I got my Sawstop I did exactly the same thing. Happened so fast it took several seconds for me to realize what happened. The assembly is hanging from a nail on my shop wall as a reminder.
Great video. The taco comment was the best. You and I have been in the EMS business and having transported patients with their fingers in a ziplock I think this saw is great!
I agree and thank you for sharing. I’ll keep this in mind if I ever trip my Sawstop brake.
Yup as said below. Tilted the blade a little, did not move the miter gauge enough. Saw did just what it is supposed to. VERY minor nick on the aluminum. Good lesson. Would not trade the safety away for anything. I did hang cartridge and blade on the wall to remind me not to make dumb mistakes. I love the piece of mind.
True story. The guitar builder I was briefly apprenticed to had an issue with a skilsaw. He was cutting a board, and it kicked back out of his hands. When it did, he went to grab it out of reflex and had his fingers cut off his left hand. For the most part, they were reattached, but it was years of pain and I don't know how much rehab to get any use of them again. That said, he still plays guitar better than I do.
I did the same thing last week with the dado blades installed. It took a while to get the blades off but in the process I learned that if you lower the blades to the lowest position they came off easier for me. If it happens again you might try doing this,
Yeah.... that's a costly one, sorry to hear :(. SawStop ownership has meant the need to implement extra precautionary steps to avoid these kinds of accidents. For me it's just before making the cut after setup and using a miter gauge, run the gauge through the cut to see if it's going to touch the blade or get too close. Also worth watching the light on the control unit as you run the gauge near the blade to see if it starts blinking as that will tell you if it would go off. Another thing I've found is if you're using any kind of aluminum / metal on your fence, it needs to be at least 1/2 inch away from the blade to avoid setting off the brake. I have the Jobsite Pro saw and I use the BOW aluminum extender fence (which I highly recommend if you're using a smaller saw like this), and I noticed when I had to do a small cut that with that fence within 1/2 inch of the blade the control unit light was blinking. The blade wasn't making contact with the fence, nor would it even if it had some how flexed during the cut, but the saw didn't like it. So I just added a temp plywood fence to it and no issues.
I unfortunately had a tablesaw accident about 5 weeks ago now and I got really lucky and only got the tip of my thumb and nicked the bone. A sawstop is not affordable to me currently but down the road I will purchase one. Thankfully as you said it was the miter sled that hit it and not your finger. Thanks for sharing
Hope you heal up soon
@ thank you
Maybe your insurance company will help you pay for one when they hear you're going to keep on making dust...
I did the same thing. Not with a dado stack. But my miter gauge loosened up and tilted ever so slightly and contacted the blade. Lessons learned.
Biggest remedy for keeping all your fingers is don’t stick them where they don’t belong. I worked in an industrial sawmill for fifty years as a saw filer and had handled just about everything that shaped or cut wood. Never cut or lost a digit in all those years. Common sense and caution will take you far. Auto stop????
Thanks for sharing!
Several years ago while butchering firewood on a circular saw I pushed cut wood away & the blade went right through the bone in my thumb. Extraordinary skill by the plastic surgeons put it back together. & now it is not noticeable. Would I swap this experience for $600, yes in a heart beat. Thank you for sharing!
It all happens so fast. Glad you had a full recovery
I'm in Sawstop Facebook groups and, of course, there have many posted activation stories...but never heard of anyone having a bent arbor because of it. Could it possibly have been how you took it out with the wedges?
I have two Sawstop saws and I'm just waiting for this to happen to me one day. I believe the odds of such an activation are inversely related to whether you have an extra cartridge on hand. If you have one close by, your chances of an activation go way down. So I keep an extra of both brakes in my shop. 😉
Now that you have extras, you can safely go for years!
I think the wedges are more gentle approach. The damage to the arbor is from the momentum in a particularly heavy dado set.
What gets me is that the tablesaw will be the only tool in the shop that is somewhat safe. What about all the other power tools you need to use. I think the best solution is to focus intently on what your doing, unless you have tons of money .
Most of the woodworkers with missing fingers I've encountered over the years lost them on a table saw.
I have several older vehicles without airbags, consider myself a safe driver and have no plans on getting in an accident. Should i go out and disable the airbags on my newer car? I certainly don't get offended by people that drive new cars with improved safety features.
@@JohnSwitzer nothing is with hidden cost, Other common injuries from airbags include:
Whiplash
Traumatic brain injuries
Neck and spine injuries
Facial injuries
Chest injuries
Soft tissue injuries
Internal injuries
@@JohnSwitzer No don't. As long as you don't sit too close to the steering wheel etc, they're much better than crashing into parts of the car. Just watch a couple hours worth of crash test video's and you can see in slow motion what happens in a crash with no airbags. You can be the best driver in the world, all it takes is one speeding drunk to blow thru a red light...
@@JohnSwitzer Older cars with older airbags (like Takata - pre massive recall) were kind of dangerous, but still 'on average' better than none at all. There's always these anecdotal stores of people getting killed by seatbelts too, but the proof is in the numbers. Law of large numbers, there will always be exceptions out there, but people have survived playing Russian roulette too. Does it mean that's a good idea? Heck no. Modern cars have smarter airbags that don't blow up with full force unless needed. Same with side curtain airbags that only go off if you get T-bones. Nothing's perfect, but seatbelts don't do a lot to stop your head from smashing into the B pillar without side airbags.
We run one in our shop. We’ve discovered that even wood that had a few raindrops on it would set it off. Oddly enough we got halfway through a sheet of polycarbonate mirror before it set itself off.
Excellent video!
Thank you for sharing
I have had the aluminum fence on my miter gauge trip two brakes now I use wood or MDF board foe fences, cheaper than brakes and blades!
Very useful intel, thanks for sharing and good luck.
Very good video. I was already convinced of the safety advantage of the SawStop which is why I bought their jobsite version. But pushing to thinking about possible integrity issues for the dado stack and also the possible bending of the arbor? Really important for extending the thinking about both precision and safety.
I have used a Wood Master/ Shop Smith for 35 years. A few years before that with a regular table saw, the last 4 with a 36” SawStop. I wanted something that was very accurate and repeatable cuts. Most importantly I now have a grandson who I maybe teaching later on. I have never had any issues, however I definitely don’t want my grandson to have any.
Thank you very much for the video ❤
I had to replace the sawstop break 3 times this year two times my coworker touched the blade ,and the most recent he forgot to bypass it and tried to cut aluminum. I had accidentally cut staples and nails before and did not trip but materials with high conductivity like cooper and aluminum will. your meterage is probability aluminum ,and that will do it
The place I worked had a brand new sawstop. It would start all on his own. No joke came in the morning it was running. It did this many times. Had to replace electronics in it.
this stuff happens my friend. people make mistakes sometimes, that's one way we learn. keep things safe. very best wishes for 2025
3 activations here, none involving fingers. One was a dropped glue bottle on the final spin of the blade. Next was cutting through a looses tenon where the glue still hadn't completely dried after 3 days. I can't remember what the 3rd one was but it was something dumb. I always keep a spare.
I'm glad no flesh was harmed in the filming of this video. Tacos are always worth the stop😂
@John Switzer absolutely agree, what is your life and health worth to you vs a saw blade and brake?
While I dont own (but wish I did) a saw stop, and plan to purchase one down the road. I feel its worth the potential repair headaches to have that piece of mind if you eff around and find out you wont find out.
I agree 100% with your intelligent logic!
Honestly, Sawstop never made much sense to me to begin with.
I've known several people who've injured themselves on a table saw, and in every case it was kickback that caused the problem... in which case the blade wouldn't stop until it was too late anyway.
Fighting kickback is the best way to avoid accidents and injury on a tablesaw.
It's certainly true that kickback is a big problem. But kickback is also a big reason fingers get pulled into a blade. Sort of like how seat belts and air bags don't prevent accidents, they just reduce the severity of the injuries
Me? I'd get rid of the metal rail on the miter gauge. Using a wood rail that can be replaced over time gives you many advantages. Sorry about the injury to your wallet, but certainly glad it stopped there.
I suppose a dial indicator and magnetic base is going to be your next expense??
Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing. It's probably good that you are now "worried" about getting injured, *and* also worried about having to pay to fix your saw again. You'll be doubly careful, going forward!
If this had happened to me, I'd be thinking about whether I could add something to my miter gauge that would make this less likely to occur in the future. (sacrificial wooden extension or something)
My miter gauge touched the blade, changed the impedance of the blade and did the same thing.
It sure doesn't take much of a contact. But it does illustrate that the system works.
It happened to my Grandpa, he didn’t have the Stop, went between his pointer, and thumb! He was using a dado stack, luckily, he was only taking, three eights out! The surgeon repaired everything, but the thumb was stuck in the out position for the rest of his life!
Surprised you bent the arbor- I’ve deliberately set off a stop with both the dado stack and multiple times with single blades without issue.
I had a brake cartridge trigger while cutting gold gilded picture frame molding. Yeah! That was a big surprise. I did not think it was even metal let alone enough to trigger the Sawstop.
Can’t wait to upgrade myself. People do dumb stuff, but we’re smart enough to know we do those dumb things. That’s why we build things to help stop us from hurting ourselves while we do dumb stuff.
Just walking into an ER, with insurance, costs more than a new base model contractor size sawstop. Without insurance and a serious injury? Coulda bought the biggest and baddest beast with every option AND put it inside that new 20x30 metal building with the best dust extraction system.
Stay safe out there. Work smart. Upgrade smart.
Could’ve ordered the cartridge from Amazon and saved yourself the trip. If I’m not mistaken the brake feature can be disabled and the saw will run without it. You look competent enough not to cut off a finger while you wait a day or two for parts.
John,
I have moved away from using the dado blade after talking to some European woodworkers. Mostly now I use a router in a router table instead. I think it is safer
The most worrisome event that I ever experienced was with a router, where something I did caused a piece to shoot out and into the shop wall.
I mean even in this scenario where it wasn't your thumb or something I feel like it triggering on the contact with the miter fence probably still saved you from a potential safety situation.
They are such a pain on the job site.
With all the false triggers and cartriges not aways in stock I used to carry 3 in my truck all the time so I could zip to a job and get the guys saw fixed.
I'd say in a year I replaced 10 or so at $60 plus a new blade.
I was taught how to properly use a TS in 8th grade wood shop.
40 years as a remodel carpenter with no flesh/blade contacts.
Use your riving knives, splitters, feather boards and hold down style push sticks and most of all listen to the voice in your head calling you an idiot, it's never just one quick cut.
John, I’ve had my sawstop almost 20 yrs. After I cut the tip of my middle finger off. Tripped the brake 4 times - always hitting a screw or nail. Careless on my part. I only use Ridge Carbide Blades now. They survived the last 2 incidents. I still sent them into Ridge for sharpening & inspection. No problems. I won’t run a stack on my saw for general safety reasons. I cut dadoes by hand & or with a flat top blade. I’ll never run a saw without a safety brake, too much risk for a me (& my wife).
Now that the patent has been relinquished, I expect competition to drive down the cost for safety. Good on Sawstop!
I have a radial arm saw and a wobble dado from the the 1960s. The dado scares the bejesus out of me, so much so that I do almost anything to avoid using it. My intention is to never take it out of its case again. I guess that makes it pretty safe.
Any good saw blade sharpening service can deal with the blade. I teach furniture making and we have two big 5HP SawStop. Only environment I would have one. They are not that great of a table saw that are way overpriced and they do not stop serious injuries (tech support is great tho). One of my instructors nearly lost half of his index finger on a dado blade.
You should have known to keep an extra cartridge on hand when you bought the saw as a nail, staple-any metal will trip it along with wet wood or moisture in the wood like maybe a glue up. The glue can still be wet after several hours of drying.
I had my finger hanging over the back of a piece of wood on the buzzer, "planer" .middle finger, right hand. Cost over$6000 Au. Lucky medical insurance covered $5000 of that. Finger needed rebuilt cos the finger pad was gone to the first joint. Just the nail and skin was left. Plastic surgeon fixed it up great but the finger remains bent and stiff. This happened in a instant of missattention one sunday afternoon at home. Was using a 6 inch buzzer but normally was using a 20 inch monster in my job at the time. Bloody lucky. I can still feel the plades hitting my finger if I close my eyes and think about it, even after 9 years. Three blades hit. Be carefull out there people! Machinery can and WILL bite! G'day from Tasmania
You can always bypass the safety, I tend to do this when I have the dado blades.
Good tip
I had to look up what a "daddo stack" was!
Also interesting you can rebuild the saw, I thought the saw stop system basically was the end of the saw when it fired.
My father put his thumb into a table saw blade when i was a kid, it was the briefest touch, but it was a mess, it went deep enough to fill the wound full of bone shards, and yes, it was probably 6 months before fully healed.
In most cases its only the cartridge and the blade that need to be replaced.
I've done the same thing, only I was cutting a bevel and forgot to move my miter guage out of the way... it's a real bummer
Yeah, when you were pounding on the wedges to get the stack off, I was worried about your arbor. It seemed like a lot of uneven impact, forcing the stack out at the top as the wedge drove in, which might bend the arbor down. I hope the damage isn’t too hard or expensive to fix! I’m glad to have seen how tough it was to get the stack off. That seems like something Sawstop would have engineered a better solution for, if one was possible. I’ve assumed for years I’d get a Sawstop when I bought a cabinet saw, but for a number of reasons I’m looking at a Harvey instead, and that arbor issue is a little sobering. (BTW, your point about how much meat a dado stack could grind is well-taken, but I think I’d likely run mine with the brake disabled - my big blade fears come into play with a blade above the workpiece, I think I’d feel ok about dealing with just the exit point of a dado or groove.)
much lighter than pounding and with the wedges it moved pretty easily. It would take much more than that to bend the 5/8" steel of the arbor. I think the problem is more from the dado stack I was using. Since this happened I found out Sawstop recommends against using dados with full chippers. What I had is about double the weight of the Sawstop dado with the same setup.
If you ever switch to a high tpi carbide tipped blade to cut some sheet plastics, just know certain kinds like mirrored material will set off your break. Gotta bypass at all times
First things first......Thank you for your service as a First Responder. I believe SawStop will cover the cost of the arbor, or anything else, except the brake cartridge, that may have been damaged, depending on how long you've had this saw. Is your saw still under warranty?? If not, they might not cover ancillary damages. When the brake eats a saw blade, consider it trash. Even if the carbides appear to be intact, they can come off the blade much easier than they should be, under normal conditions. Most of the time, when the brake fires, it's user error. I was using a friends SawStop when the brake fired. I got distracted by something while using it, and the blade nicked the side of my left hand between my wrist and pinky finger. I only had to wash my hands, and apply a Band-Aid, and then go home to shower and put on some clean clothes, if you understand what I mean. I offered to replace the blade and the brake, he refused saying that, knowing how well the saw works, was payment enough. I looked online to find out the cost of everything, and that Christmas, I gave him a gift card to his favorite lumber yard for double the cost of what the replacement parts was. He said I didn't have to do that, and I said, if you didn't have that SawStop, my expenses would have been MUCH HIGHER. I seriously do hope that SawStop covers the parts needed, but if not, at least you and I both learned a very valuable lesson.
My biggest gripe would be that it doesn't need to have the break, it could just as easily drop the blade/motor assembly and let the blade come to a stop on its own. But that wouldn't make them gobs of money.
An annoyance with project delayed but I am glad you’re accepting the situation. The balance between the system working and it being possible to trip accidentally are intrinsically linked. Taking it in stride, being understanding, logical, is the big takeaway for me. Life happens.
Must be nice to have that Woodcraft so nearby. (j/k) but that is the same "closest" store for me and it's 270 miles each way to get there.
Very logical reasoning for using the stop, $600 or even $1000 is well worth not going through a major injury and the time it would take to recover.
Pretty sure that the Forrest blade co. will inspect, weld, and sharpen blades that aren't theirs. Might reach out to them.
Thats a good way to win new customers
My only brake activation so far was the exact same reason - mitre gauge. Luckily for me, the blade was OK and no damage to the arbor. But a humbling experience nonetheless.
I have been a woodworker all my life, well from about 12 years old and I just turned 76. I started using table saws when I was 13 and have worked as a armature as well as a professional. I can report that I happily have all my digits and never had even a near miss. But looking at your issue with this failure to have the saw stop could have been even larger accident that if it were your thumb. The fact that it was the crosscut device that hit the blade without the saw stop the spinning blade and aluminum guide could have produced bits of metal flying around or a serious kick back that could have resulted in personal injury to your body from the waist up. So get out in your shop, be safe, wear your safety glasses.... well do that sign off better than me....
I also hate expensive sounds.
Damp wood will fire the stop? It is an electrical flow somewhere.
I’ve done it three times it’s the metal cross cut attachment touching the blade look on the corner of your cross cut attachment. You’ll find a Nick out of it.
Correct, i showed that spot in the video
Just remember, $600 is so much cheaper than paying a Dr to put your fingers back on. Not to mention the loss of income while recovering. Keep making videos!
See, this is one of those things you learn from experience, "honey I have to go to the wood working store, want to come?" she is like hmmm.... " we can get tacos on the way back!" and that makes it worth it for her lol, you don't have to drive all those hours alone and wifey and you get tacos everyone wins, except the bank account..... you guys thought I was going to say something else about the experience but keeping the wife happy is always a priority for a married man.
John, thank you for telling this story! My cousin is a professional woodworker, who just lost his fingers to a table saw. It is still unknown whether the surgery was successful. Meanwhile, I am trying to get him on the idea of the sawstop. Thank you again and good luck with the repair! Really, it is much better to pay $600 but keep all your fingers.
If you're having to 'get him on the idea' of a Sawstop after he's just lost fingers, then there's a bigger problem.
@@A1BASE What's is "a bigger problem"? The fact that sawstop is virtually impossible to get in Russia where he lives?
Saw stop saves injury
Re: time off after accident. Last year, had a saw accident and went to the emergency room. The surgeon informed he had seen a lot of woodworkers and advised I cut the finger off if I wanted to be back at work quickly. Yes he asked me during surgery. I said no but it was 3 months.
Hope you heal up soon