How Miss Saigon Ended Up Becoming Controversial
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 жов 2024
- “Miss Saigon”, a musical that premiered in the West End at the Theatre Royal in September 1989, is about an American male GI who falls in love with a young Vietnamese orphan who works as a bar-girl and as a prostitute. As an immediate hit, Miss Saigon ran for 4,264 performances before closing on October 30th, 1999. However, alongside growing popularity, Miss Saigon has also earned a lot of criticism. In today’s video, we will explore the controversy surrounding Miss Saigon, and why attempts to revive it have been met with both harsh pushback and proponents.
Sources:
www.americanth...
www.nytimes.co...
en.wikipedia.o...
deadline.com/2...
www.spokesman....
www.theguardia...
www.theatreart...
asianamerican....
www.nytimes.co...
digitalcommons...
Social Media:
Instagram: TheHotPotPodcast / thehotpotpo. .
TikTok: thehotpotofficial6 / thehotpotoffi. .
Email: thehotpotofficial@gmail.com
Podcast:
hotpot.buzzspr...
Subscribe, Like, and Comment for more!
I wouldn‘t portray Kim as being weak at all. She‘s such a strong, resilient character, trapped in a terrible war, doing everything to survive for her son. If at all, Chris is weak, he‘s a coward, not able to, no not even thinking about fulfilling his promise, lying to his second wife and taking zero accountability when confronted.
I know, the "white saviour" description is ridiculous. Anyone who has seen the show knows it's the opposite. The video is full of untruths.
@@mariavanschie7946I agree Chris is a coward but I do think he has the desire to be Kim's saviour and it is questionable why he chooses Kim and no one else to poorly attempt to save.
@@livywoodward8666 No one is saved in this story. It shows that the American Dream is a lie. Everyone is a victim of war. From the soldiers to the women to the boat people to the tens of thousands of kids that came from their romances.
@tuanvu8135 Kim is strong and resilient indeed. Chris is weak willend and irresponsible indeed. Kim decides. You basically do not like to see a story about someone in Kim's position. That is racist. No matter how heroic and strong Kim is, you will complain. While this is a hommage to the hundreds of thousands of people that lived through that. The bar girls, the boat people. When Ellen tells Kim she's married to Chris, she throws the whole romance out of the window. Kim has other purposes. If you think she is doing this for Chris you haven't seen the show.
@tuanvu8135 no disrespect meant here, genuine question, even though he sees himself as one, does Chris really count as a white saviour? In the end isn’t he a coward who crushes Kim with false promises?
The 'yellowface' criticism is warranted, but some of the other points feel like the critics never read about the Vietnam War.
1. Asian characters being presumed to be opportunistic is reflective of how dire the situation is turning during the late stages of the war. Take note that in the early 1970s, with the North Vietnamese Army steadily heading towards Saigon and the constant threat of Vietcong attacks within South Vietnam (which was first experienced during the Tet Offensive of 1969), every South Vietnamese wanted to leave the country by any means necessary. The American GIs being seen as more dominant is sadly the truth of the matter. And this is a truth that the Vietnamese prostitutes in Dreamland have long accepted as they hope for a better life. Modern audiences might see this as paternalistic and patriarchal but in early 1970s Vietnam, these GIs are in fact the potential "white saviors" for these Vietnamese women who wanted to flee the country before it is too late.
2. In Kim's and the other prostitutes' perspective, having "no female ownership whatsoever" and "being small and powerless" are things that they'll willingly disregard if it means living a life free from the looming threat of war. At that point, nothing could be better than being safe.
3. If people think that the Asian characters were victims, it's because they are. Essentially, this just emphasizes the idea that "war is hell", not just for the soldiers but also for the civilians who have lost their livelihoods and are forced into circumstances which they must survive. Humans are not meant to behave this way but for wartime victims, what else is there but to survive. Besides, isn't Kim surviving for her only child already indicative of resiliency?
In conclusion, you cannot apply modern identity politics to a historical event that does not have the same circumstances as us in the 21st century. It's foolish task considering that the norms in the '70s and in an Asian country like Vietnam, is inherently different from the norms of modern Western civilization in the 2000s.
This is such a good breakdown on why the show is so good. It portrays the horrors of that war in a realistic way, and has such a strong, resilient mother as the main character.
It’s the Madame Butterfly story
People who think Kim is weak are sorely mistaken, she is the strongest character in the musical by far.
People who think Kim is weak are people who have not seen poverty. It is not an easy life.
She killed herself after finding out her G. I. lover has a wife in the States. This even after she killed her tormentor Thuy and was able to escape to thailand. Doesn't make sense at all.
@@dodonggoldblum2085you missed the entire point why she killed herself. She was devastated after finding out Chris has a wife but she was accepting. It was only when Chris said he won’t bring their son to the States because a child needs his mother that she decides to sacrifice for her child so that Chris will have no choice but to bring him back otherwise he’ll be orphan.
@@dodonggoldblum2085 she killed herself for Chris to bring their son in the US. She did that for her child. She was never a coward
She is only strong because of her love for Chris. She is a tool to show the supremacy of American men and fails to exist independently of Chris. She announces that she is only living for him and the song "Sun and Moon" is a metaphor for her light being only a reflection of Chris'.
My namej's Wayman Wong. I'm the reporter who first broke the story of the ''yellowface''' casting controversy over ''Miss Saigon'' on July 11, 1990 in the New York Daily News. Your video does a good job, but allow me to fill in some forgotten details. ''Miss Saigon'' defended its hiring of Welsh actor Jonathan Pryce as the Engineer, in part, because its casting director claimed a worldwide search had been made to find a capable Asian actor who could play the role, but none could be found. After Actors Equity allowed Pryce to play the Engineer on Broadway, the show admitted that there had been a misunderstanding: No such search had been made to find an Asian man to play the Engineer. As Equity suspected, the producer, Cameron Mackintosh, had wanted to cast Pryce all along, and had no interest in giving that star-making part to an Asian guy (and resented the criticism he was getting).
In 2014, Mackintosh mounted a 25th-anniversary production of ''Miss Saigon,'' in London, and an Asian-American, Jon Jon Briones, was cast as the Engineer, and received raves and an Olivier Award nomination. Only then, Mackintosh expressed regret in how he handled the 1990 controversy and acknowledged that his critics, who blasted his ''yellowface'' casting, had a valid point.
I remember being disappointed by Pryce's recounting of the controversy for a BBC documtery on musicals, (from the late 200s) where he compared his casting to white men playing Othello, and that he though the makeup was okay because of that
Also forgotten, but when ''Miss Saigon'' opened in London in 1989, the role of Thuy, the Vietnamese villain, was played by Keith Burns, a Caucasian actor in yellowface. When ''Miss Saigon'' reached New York, Thuy would be played by an Asian-American: Barry K. Bernal, who made his Broadway debut. On the 25th anniversary of ''Miss Saigon,'' Burns admitted he was ''devastated'' that he didn't reprise Thuy in NYC, but ''now I look back, it was the right thing - a white guy playing an Asian role seems very old-fashioned now.'' As for Bernal, he died in 1994 of complications from AIDS.
Thanks for sharing the perspective! That's fascinating to know that Mackintosh admitted he was wrong decades later. If only he'd realized that in the 90s, then maybe the controversy could have been avoided at the beginning.
@@l.n.3372 since I see that you're interested in learning people's perspectives on it all.
I'll tell my late grandfather's perspective. ^^ And pls bare in mind that I don't wish to monopolize the dialogue by centering his perspective.
My grandfather served in the Airforce during the Vietnam War.
From what my father told me is that he didn't like to talk about his time in Vietnam.
And as soon as Miss Saigon came out for the first time, he was against it and was horrified since he had seen the scary things that happened to Vietnamese civilians caused by both US servicemen and the enemies. While he was invited to go see the musical since he was a Vietnam War veteran. He refused to go see it since he mentioned that the Vietnam War was a tragedy for both the vietnamese civilians and many Americans because of the drafting part and the fact that they drafted people with low IQs to fight the war. When we asked him as to why he refused to see Miss Saigon, he mentioned that while the parts with Vietnamese mothers and children being fathered by US servicemen was real. He felt that it was disrespectful and that it's better to let the people who suffered and died during the war rest in peace.
So yeah. That's how he saw it as.
@@Boopboop-e4t
Thanks for sharing!
I think it's definitely a fair perspective to say "realistic to history but disrespectful to portray in fiction." Plenty of things in history didn't need fictional adaptations. Miss Saigon didn't need to exist, and obviously it wouldn't have caused controversy if it didn't exist.
But, whether people like it or not, it does exist, so at least it allows for dialogue for us to discuss it.
I remember my drama and music teachers in high school constantly floating the idea to put on Miss Saigon as our spring musical, despite the fact that most of us interested in being in the musical were very, very white. Anecdotally, they were thinking of putting one of our best singers in yellowface to play Kim.
Yeah...glad we went with Disney's Beauty and the Beast instead.
Funny because my school did just that! As the only asian in the program, thank god I chose not to audition and subject myself to that every day. Glad your school had enough sense to go another direction!
@@mimimirie Yeah, I can imagine if you'd gone through with that it would have been very, very awkward and uncomfortable.
Ah HELL naw!!!!!
That reminds of a story I heard about someone’s school wanting to do “Hairspray” but it was a majority white school, so they just had the kids wear red and blue clothes to symbolize the segregation 💀
@@parkchimmin7913 Way to miss the point of that show.
I only heard of Miss Saigon after becoming an Eva Noblezada fan (thank you Hadestown!) I was interested and looked into the story was not surprised by any of the controversy. As a Black woman, I completely understand the danger of white men telling our stories. Thankful that there were some changes but still it’s unfortunate.
Your remark is prejudiced. The show is honoring the stories of these people that existed. The perfection of this show is that it does not portray any character as perfect. All flawed human beings, victim of war and circumstance. It's interesting to see people from all backgrounds and aspects of life complaining that they wanted to see their own kind presented as more glorious. The show is in fact about the real stories of people that existed. If anything, Americans are portrayed as pigs and seeing themselves in a certain way, while the show is bigger than that.
@@mariavanschie7946the writers of this show don't understand anything about the Vietnamese experience during the war.
This video is full of misinformation. Every line is simply untrue.
@@mariavanschie7946 I stand with my original statement.
@@mariavanschie7946it isn’t about wanting your own culture to be glorious, but that Miss Saigon is a great example of western culture creating a story that relies on Americans as the “white savior”. It makes assumptions about the desires of generalized Vietnamese people that they need saving. This story would never be written by someone from the actual culture it represents.
Miss Saigon is great for revealing awesome asian talents like Lea and Eva Noblezada. And that’s it lol
I agree. I'm glad they cast such powerful singers because I love the roles these women have done since Miss Saigon.
@l.n.3372 yet we already have dramas from Asia and Crazy Rich Asians. Apologies but I don't agree.
@@HayakawaKenjiro
Do you understand that Western movies and dramas and musicals almost always feature white actors? Do you understand that Asian actors rarely get featured at all?
You named 1 movie (Crazy White Asians) and "Asian dramas." Yet, in your brain, that's perfectly enough and it's "bad" to feature Asian representation elsewhere?
Miss Saigon's successful run(s) predates Crazy Rich Asians by many years...
Casting Filipino people as Vietnamese is an odd choice. Completely unrelated culture and genetic. Not even the same complexion. Speaking as a Vietnamese person, might as well have casted white actors. Filipinos are not Sino culturally nor genetically.
Imagine being a teenager as the only asian in the audience, watching my high school put on a production of Miss Saigon with all white kids in thick exaggerated eyeliner, pole dancing provocatively. I left during intermission, not able to articulate how disturbed I was at that age.
That being said, certain songs stand on their own and Lea and Eva are superstars!
Yikes!! I feel that! My 96% white high school did the wiz and Aida (I was one of like 3 black students and none of us were in either of them). They also did an all gentile version of fiddler on the roof.
@@KindredKayeOmg- There's literally soooo many other musicals to do that aren't specifically POC leads. AIDA? THE WIZ? FIDDLER? 😭 What's next...Color Purple???
@@ihavenoname330 I know, right! Like THE WIZ?!!? I mean they could have just as easily done the Wizard of Oz, but nooooo their thought process was let's do an all white version of the wiz
@@KindredKaye Oh man! My school also did The Wiz and Aida and I was in both 🤣 I definitely think it's outdated and problematic to put these shows on, but it also exposed us to amazing stories and music. So I sometimes feel torn but totally get where you're coming from.
I know I'm biased as an Asian American, but there's something about Miss Saigon that feels especially micro-aggressive to put on as a school production. Teenagers pretending to be Asian sex workers?! Pleading to please white men?!! Meanwhile I was being fetishized and orietalized as a young Asian girl on the daily. Yuck.
@@mimimirie Agreed!
Miss Saigon is a work of fiction but it is not a fairy tale. There is no happy ending. It is a tragedy. I think the stereotypes capture the awful situation of the Vietnam war of the late 1950s to 70s - Vietnamese women doing everything to survive, American young men taught to be macho white saviours - in different ways both caught up as victims in the prevailing ideology at that time. The Vietnam War changed that generation of America, but along came the the 1980s and 90s 🤦♂
I think that Miss Saigon is misinterpreted. Chris isn't a white savior. He tries to be one and he fails. He even sings about it. And ultimately that is what this story is about. American exceptionalism failing in a conflict we shouldn't have joined. Critics focus on the love story between Chris and Kim. That is a portion of the story that illustrates a larger point. You start the show thinking that Chris is going to save her from conflict and that Kim is going to be docile. In the end, he cannot save her and she cannot be docile, which she proves when she chooses to survive and also chooses to shoot a man dead when he threatens her child. I think Miss Saigon is more dynamic that critics are willing to credit.
I think this is an interesting comment but you can’t deny that the story as a whole praises and idealises the idea of America throughout and constantly disparages Vietnam in comparison, particularly from the perspective of the Asian characters in the musical, that is where the savoir argument comes from. Allllll the characters in the story talk about how Vietnam is an awful place in comparison to the US, this directly links to a white savoir perspective as it’s framed from the colonial viewpoint.
@@samalexandra1697 Yes, but that’s the point. That’s where we were as a country entering the Vietnam War. The previous generation came home triumphant from WWII and American exceptionalism was high. The characters think they are better, trying to save people who they think are helpless. It doesn’t work out so well. As an audience, we don’t have to agree with them. We shouldn’t agree with them! We are supposed to learn from our history and reflect on mistaken ways of thinking.
@@samalexandra1697
I think OP is correct. The narrative isn't about white savior Chris or pro America. It was written by Europeans as critical of America and critical of the Vietnam war.
As for you your claim that it makes America seem larger than life while Vietnam is portrayed as worse, well, many Vietnamese immigrants DID escape the communist regime and they fled to Europe, America and other Asian countries. None of that is false. In the eyes of many immigrants worldwide, America WAS idealized as this perfect sanctuary for refugees. In reality, we all know this is a flawed perspective because America kinda sucks in many ways. But it's always been viewed as the land of freedom and job opportunity for immigrants worldwide. It's not racist to portray what real immigrants thought about America historically when fleeing their homelands.
Now, if you think it wasn't handled well enough, then I agree. Miss Saigon is problematic at best and very flawed at worst. But the narrative is meant to show Kim and the Engineer as immigrants who want to flee the communist regime in Vietnam for better lives in the West. And that's a realistic journey for many immigrants, even if their idealized version of America wasn't grounded in reality.
be so fucking fr 💀 they had a white man in yellowface. what is there to misinterpret about that? then the geniuses thought to have a song in actual gibberish for the white audience bcs well, they wouldn’t know the gd difference anyway right, but We should give it the benefit of the doubt? 💀 bcs oh i’m sorry, two white men knows their stuff apparently, it’s ..dynamic 😵 their tragic love non love story totally changed everyone’s minds about the vietnam war !! yeah i think you’re the one giving it way too much credit than it deserves.
@@samalexandra1697 But regardless of whether you like it or not, what happens if the story reflects an accurate and historical truth? Do we change the truth to make it something more culturally conducive for today's viewers?
Were you alive in1975? If so, do you remember the 'boat people," or the refugees coming over from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos? Do you recall the planes of orphans from Southeast Asian countries and Korea brought to the United States for American famiies to adopt?
Are you aware of how many Asian families arrived penniless in the US during the 70's, struggled and saved, and started their own businesses, many of which eventually became successful miillon dollar corporations?
These men, women and chilldren were fleeing wartorn countries fraught with civil unrest, brutal dictators, and the most inhumane living conditions. Many of them literally only had the clothing on their backs. God yes, America truly was a land of incredible opportunity for them.
The truth is that during the 20th century many of the worst atrocities inflicted upon Asian countries were by the hands of other Asian countries. The Vietnam War was not between America and Vietnam.It was between North and South Vietnam, just like the Korean War. But it was Americans who were pulled in, and whose lives were sacrificed in their attempts to help. You may not appreciate the term "White Savior,"
but that's exactly the role American soldiers were being deployed out to play back then.
And btw..not all of those 'saviors' were White.
Now I've travelled to Vietnam, and it is one of the friendliest and most beautiful countries on the planet. But it wasn't like that 50 years ago, during its own civil war!
Miss Saigon isn’t entirely kosher, but when I went to see the live broadcast from London in cinemas, the audience was almost entirely Asian. It’s certainly had an impact and like you said, the revival addressed the biggest issues. And no other production has ever employed nearly as many Asian actors.
Despite the controversy of this show, it's also one of the few, I think, that has a good amount of leading Asian roles available. Now that the show always deliberately cast for Asian actors, it's a great opportunity to showcase hidden gem Asian talent.
As you said, the show is flawed. But Kim is a great leading female character. It's undeniable that some Asian women in the audience will see the show and be glad that an Asian actress can portray such a powerful role on stage.
Because there's no better representation. This is sad.
@@l.n.3372exactly, these are all good things, but the story is told from the white savior's perspective rather than the victim's
@@ACAB.forcutie victims of what? Of war. There is no saviour aspect in this show. Kim decides everything.
@@mariavanschie7946 way to ignore the fact that one of the main characters is literally a sex trafficking victim. 💀
Another interesting review to read is the review in the Village Voice from the original Broadway production. The reviewer, a white American man, was definitely of the generation that was subject to the draft during the Vietnam War, and protested against it. His analysis of the show was just so viscerally angry at the US military being portrayed as the savior in Vietnam.
There was also a new production in the UK a couple months ago that had some interesting casting choices -- they cast Black performers as Chris and Ellen, and a woman as the Engineer. (The woman playing the Engineer had played Kim years ago.) They also edited the script somewhat, but the reaction that I've seen wasn't great -- general consensus seems to be that it got sanitized so much that there's no sense of conflict left, and nobody really has a reason for any of their "I am in a desperate situation, and so I must make hard choices" decisions.
i watched the production in sheffield last month, agree that they sanitised it to the point of there being no conflict anymore. I think the lack of racist remarks etc towards vietnamese people only serves to portray the americans as the “saviours” of the vietnamese people even more than the original script :/
@@thingimabob0
I'm not able to see the newest production so I wonder what you mean by "racist remarks towards Vietnamese portrays Americans as white saviors etc"
While racism is wrong, it would be historically and unfortunately accurate that there would be racism towards Vietnamese and Asians during that time period, especially by white Europeans and Americans. Depictions of racism in fiction are not necessarily racist if they are intentionally meant to show how bad the racism was for that time period.
For example, you cannot adapt a Civil War era story while ignoring the racism towards slaves. Nor can you adapt a WW2 era story while ignoring the rampant racism in Europe towards victims of the Nazis. Depictions of historical racism don't inherently make the fiction racist.
That said, I do think the original Miss Saigon was inherently racist by casting white actors in Asian roles. That's deliberately racist.
@@l.n.3372 hey, i think you misread my comment. I said that the *lack of* racism portrays the traditionally white (although in this production Chris & Ellen are played by black actors) characters in too good a light, makes them seem like they’re “saving” the vietnamese people.
Completely agree that the original cast having white actors in vietnamese roles was inherently racist.
@@thingimabob0
Oh gotcha, gotcha.
Ok, my take: I don't think that this is an example of portraying a white savior or pro America perspective. I think it's probably a genuine attempt by the new production to lessen the problematic language of the show. Unfortunately, it unintentionally makes it seem like there wasn't rampant racism back then, which isn't historically accurate at all. This leads to a problem with 2 possible solutions available:
A) Accurately portray racism as it legit existed back in the 70s. Get accused of being racist as a result for including that racist language in the show.
B) Deliberately leave out problematic racist language. Suffer from being not historically accurate. And suffer from people accusing you of being a white savior narrative.
So you really can't win either way. It's a lose, lose situation no matter what the new production directors chose to do. As for me, I'd prefer the show was historically accurate even tho that means including racist language. Because that language was problematic and it existed, so it shouldn't be left out. It happened, it was problematic, but we can't erase problematic aspects - if we want to keep it historically accurate, then depictions of bad things like racism are inevitable.
@@l.n.3372 100% agree
You didn't mention how on top of trying to boycott Jonathan Pryce, they also protested the casting of Filipina Lea Salonga as Kim since she's not American or Vietnamese. Those people protesting were probably not aware that it took a long time to find the perfect Kim. Cameron searched all over the world for over a year to find his Kim. And yes he let Asian Americans audition during his search. He finally found his Kims (Lea and Monique) in Manila. Lea's voice is just perfect for the role. It was sweet, pure, innocent, but possessed so much power when needed. Her voice and her portrayal of Kim are two of the reasons why the musical garnered early success and recognition. This role also paved the way for Lea to play Eponine in Les Mis, opening the door for other POC to play that role that has been traditionally only given to white women.
And let me just add that Lea Salonga is the only actress to play Kim who was nominated and also won a Tony Award for that role (she also won the Lawrence Olivier award for that role). No other successor can make the same claim. Eva Noblezada came close when she also got nominated for playing Kim however she didn't win the Tony that year. Cameron Mackintosh knew what he was doing when he picked Lea and then Eva (for the revival) to play Kim.
Eva was nominated on Tony but yes it was Lea who won.@@bargainhuntermama
Why should he let facts get in the way of being judgemental?
She's a legend here in 🇵🇭
@@enzodapan5016 Yeah, but she was a DUMB supporter of that murdered cRuderigo iDiot30!! My cousins in Manila boycotted her performances in Manila because of that.
Kim does not believe she is going to marry Chris when going to the hotelroom where Ellen is. Chris is not pledging in the helicopter his love for her and that he's coming back. It is total chaos. Kim is not in denial when Ellen tells her she's married to Chris. She actually accepts the disappointment and immediately turns it into a plan for the future of their kid.
this. I don’t know why everyone else seems to have missed that the *minute* she becomes aware of the whole situation, she stops thinking about herself and immediately starts thinking about her son. She knew there was no chance of her being with Chris anymore. She simply wanted her child to have a better life. To me, Miss Saigon is (at its heart) much more about a mother’s endless love for her child than about the relationship between chris and kim.
I 💯 agree
@@emilymantini1200 Everything that is mentioned in this video is factually untrue. The poster has definitely not seen the show.
Regarding the age of the characters, calling Chris a “old man“ is way off base. Keep in mind that the average age of a soldier in Vietnam was 22. And this average is so low because the ranks were filled with 18-year-olds. It’s very likely that Chris was only a year or two older and probably not more than five years older. This isn’t to say it’s OK to have sex with a 17-year-old. But the age disparity isn’t as great as some might assume.
Four words: Depiction is not endorsement.
Exactly. Why is that so difficult to understand?
I was adopted from Bangkok in 1976, this musical hit me hard, on a happy note I got to audition at the West End, and I overheard the directors saying "this is the first time we've got someone who was born where the musical takes place", as you know the second part is in Bangkok)
Actually most American GIs would have been on average 18-21, so Chris is really only a year or two older than Kim in the show. He's not an "old man" in the slightest.
I think that an interesting fact that can be Explored is that this musical is inspired by Puccini’s Opera “ Madama Butterfly”. While the plots are essentially the same there are some differences that at credence to some of the criticisms that Miss Saigon got. For instance Cho Cho in madama butterfly is 15 and is so excited about marrying an American that she secretly converts to Christianity , much to the disgust of her uncle ( the “cousin” in miss Saigon ) who then makes everyone in the room with her leave and denounce her. It should also be noted that in madama utterly the American man only marries her because of japans at the time relaxed divorce laws where as in miss Saigon there appears to be something akin to love between them. In a way Way Madama Butterfly is more tragic then Miss Saigon and was written by someone not of the culture ( though Puccini is an amazing composer and many of his works have been transformed into media we know today like La Boheme becoming the musical RENT ) I can go into some other details if anyone is curious cause Madama Butterfly is legit one of my favorite operas and I love getting to talk about music and using my degree
Thank you for your comment. I was waiting for someone to compare/contrast Madama Butterfly and Miss Saigon. In my less than sophisticated opinion, the USA comes off as awful in both. The song Bui Doi had me weeping openly and I wondered if it was true that neither country was willing to accept those children. This video does not address either the opera or the issue of the children. It instead focuses on extremely important issues of a different nature. I think that's OK but I do wish the video also discussed Butterfly and the children.
@@Zeyev I agree that children play a vital role in both Saigon and butterfly and in very interesting factors . In Saigon she is 17 I think and relatively close to what we in the US would consider adulthood and towards the end of the story her own child is essentially just meeting his father and taken out of the room even though they only agreed to child support. So the child is not there to witness his mothers last moments. Versus Madama Butterfly which itself is a lot more critical as Cho Cho is only 15 , a child by modern perspective. We can assume Pinkerton is her first love by the lengths she goes and how she is dead set in waiting for him to return to her despite everyone else telling her he won’t and she should remarry. And Cho Cho’s child is argue is in a worse situation as when his father comes back it’s because Pinkertons wife kate had agreed to raise the child ( meaning he was gonna be taken away from his mother to the US) and when Pinkerton sees the love and care Cho Cho had for the home she thought she was keeping for them he runs off and can’t face her. The opera ends with Cho Cho taking her child and sitting him down , blindfolding him ( remember how her family renounced her for converting ) placing and folded up American flag in his hand as he waits for his father . She then leaves him to go behind a screen , take her fathers blade and commits seppuku. Each story deals with the loss of innocence but Saigon oddly enough is not as cold and critical as Butterfly.
@@IzaiahKelly I appreciate your analysis. I saw both many, many years ago. It's great that you know both so well. Thanks.
It’s interesting that Hotpot doesn’t even mention “Madama Butterfly” here. I agree that the fact that “Miss Saigon” makes an effort to make “Chris” sympathetic is important. In “Madama Butterfly,” Pinkerton is more clearly a villain while they portray Chris as sincere and … not as responsible for his actions because of circumstance and possibly some undefined mental illness (PTSD.) What’s really interesting though is “Madama Butterfly” is an opera based on a play, based on a short story, based on another “semi-autobiographical” novel. It would appear the female protagonist loses agency more and the villains get more sympathetic treatment with each iteration. I’m not certain of the plot of the original French novel, but the English language short story “Madame Butterfly” ends differently. In the story which the opera is based, the villainous PInkertons indicate their intention to just take the baby away from Cho Cho. Cho Cho does try to commit suicide but her maid stops her and convinces her to just run away with her and the baby before the PInkertons show up … which she does! Of course, operas have a tradition where they can only be either tragedies or comedies which is why I think Cho Cho had to die. Still, it’s kinda cool to know that at some point in the evolution of this story, the Japanese women did prevail against the paternalistic western villains.
@@Daybreaq Fascinating how the story changed from one of a strong woman. I can see Hollywood making a sequel called something like "Butterfly's Revenge" in an attempt to make a zillion dollars. [My second sentence is snark through and through.]
A good review, but I can tell you as a guy who has spoken to Vietnam War Veterans at VFW Halls throughout Southeast Iowa and Central Illinois that the marines and soldiers DID have the power when it came to the women who were prostitutes in Saigon. These women needed these soldiers (who had money) in order to make money for their families. The only people in Vietnam who had money were the corrupt government officials (who had their own prostitutes) and the young American soldiers. One soldier I spoke to told me that he lost his virginity when he was a 19 years old soldier in Saigon. He had sex with her and when he walked into the "room" separated by a blanket and walked into a 3 year old girl. He recoiled when he told the story and he really felt terrible about it, even though he knew he was supporting a woman who needed the money. Sex work in a time of war is about the power of the male soldier over the woman, as tough as that is. That is the cards which have been played. Miss Saigon told a sad story, but it was true in many ways. A great review, though. I thought I might add some context from the soldiers I have spoken to who were in Southeast Asia in the 1960s and 1970s.
I personally don’t agree with “any sane person” that she said no. It’s toxic how we teach we should have biological children. Despite biological children being thrown away everyday into orphanages, human trafficking & foster care systems. It’s shocking to take someone else’s child at first but understandable if there is no life for such a child that a mother would be willing to give them up if it’s the child’s best chance.
It's ignoring the very real story where the desperate vietnamese people gave away their children during the US Helicopter escape because they were afraid they would be slaughtered.
@@kellharris2491 Exactly!
I also felt this way. Thank you to the person who commented to add historical context. The scene must be referring to how, like with Afghanistan and the military planes recently… so sad and heartbreaking
I think perhaps the point may have been that Ellen coudn't conceive splitting a child from his mother.Ellen wasn't grasping just how tragic the circumstances were in Vietnam, until Kim set her straight. Of course, it didn't slip Ellen's mind that so long as Chris was raising Tam, Kim would always be in Chris' life.
@@trao1938 Still doesn’t change the concept that many people don’t get it but I get what you mean.
As a Vietnamese, I found it deeply disturbing that they depicted Vietnam as somewhat hellish and needed to escape to the beautiful first world country America.
Edit: I'm well aware of the fact that there were immigrants tried to leave Vietnam for many reasons, one of that is due to their association with the Republic of Vietnam. What I meant to say is that it's terrible that they didn't do enough research and potrayed our people and our land wrongly and America just objectively better. Hopefully I clarified something!
They depicted Communism as hellish. It could have been anywhere.
@@Tolstoy111well yeah sure but not exactly just anywhere. this is especially heinous. shithole 3rd world country vs the US land of the free? come on..
During the Vietnam war and the years after, many immigrants did leave the country, and some went to America afterwards. So it's not false to portray people living under communist regimes as wanting to flee their country and escape to the west. That was a reality.
It's historically accurate to say that many felt trapped under communism. Nor is it false to show that many had a naively idealized image of America as the land of opportunity. Just because it's naive and idealized, that doesn't mean people didn't naively believe this for centuries.
Thank you for speaking up. If you're Vietnamese, do not be afraid to speak up against Miss Saigon
My husbands Aunt actually married an American serviceman during the Vietnam War and came back to the States with him. They have since divorced and she married into my husband's family. I have talked with his Aunt at length about her life before the war, during the war and her experiences when she first arrived in the States and her story, along with those of her friends and family, does mimic a lot of what went down in Miss Saigon, right down to some of her relatives fleeing communist Vietnam after the war and becoming boat people. She knows that the musical Miss Saigon is a piece of *fiction* and doesn't get offended by it as she actually lived parts of Kim's story herself.
One of the few musicals where it required exceptional lead actress because of the demand of the show and the song they needed to sing. Now we have Lea Salonga, followed by Eva Noblezada and also Rachelle Ann Go who is now playing Eliza in Hamilton.
Rachelle Ann Go who portrayed bar girl Gigi is NOT considered a lead actress for Miss Saigon as Lea and Eva was as Kim.
This just looks like Madame Butterfly but set during the Vietnam War? Bare in mind David Belasco wrote Madame Butterfly in 1898, nearly a century before Miss Saigon on the precipice of US imperialism.
It's essentially that, yeah.
Unfortunately yes even though while I do remain engaging critically with Miss Saigon, Madame Butterfly makes Kim look like a 3 dimensional character
Great Video! Miss Saigon was supposed to be a modern musical adaption of Puccini's Madama Butterfly, which is equally problematic.
Supposed to be? It IS. But, yes both are socially problematic.
I am japanese and from Japan, And I hate Madame Butterfly. It's such a gross story. Pucini and Pierre Loti had no right to talk about my culture.
And whoever keeps broadcasting Miss Saigon needs to stop
@@satojoungthankfully most Japanese couldn't give a fk lol.
The handa production had many asian audience members and an Asian cast.
Beautiful production.
@amandae8437 nope. Doesn't matter if they casted an asian cast to play an exotification of my country and culture. It's still not OKAY! You need to listen to us asians when we tell you our stories. And you have no right to speak on my people's behalf! 🖕🏼
@amandae8437 I am japanese.
Who told you that
1. Us japanese people don't give a fk about Madame Butterfly?
2. You needed to speak on our behalf? 🤔
One of my favorite musicals. I cried my eyes out when I saw it. The raw emotion showing how far one will go to give their child what they think is a better life was incredible. It cuts right through you. Then they land a chopper on the damn stage. Incredible.
Mine too. How can you not cry when Kim is singing I'd Give My Life For You?
I also saw the play but I saw the play with a friend who was half American and Vietnamese. We were both in high school at the time his father took us. It was so raw that his father left half way through this was when the play had just came out. I understand the whole representation issue but this was a whole different era. When the play came out the Vietnam war was still very raw people were still dealing with this conflict that didn’t yield anything. Until then it was the longest conflict in America history and let’s face it we lost. So that play was also the only from memory that also dealt with the children from the war. It’s easy to criticize what was done in the past through “ modern /progressive “ eyes. In all honesty, it seems in history we always seem to either not learn from it or take two steps forward and one step back.
@@virginiaariaz4214 People don't understand. The audience complains that the vietnamese were treated badly and disrespected... But that's what happened. The women where pressed into having to 'service' the GI's. They were disrespected and the US just up and left them behind. The children of US soldiers faced discrimination and where often abandoned. The US soldiers were left with nothing but guilt and shame. No they aren't the heroes of the story. People don't want to look at the reality because it doesn't paint anyone in a good light.
I generally agree with what you said here, but is there any reason to think Chris isn't supposed to be like 18 or 19? Maybe there is, long time since I've seen it. But a lot of the draftees forced to be there were that age. He may not have been too old for Kim. Doesn't change the other power dynamics, but it may change that one.
The average age of a soldier in Vietnam was 19-22 years of age.
I saw the travel cast over 20 years ago and loved the music so much. I agree that I thought of Chris as 18-22 years of age, which would fit with Kim. I also felt like the show wasn’t trying to imply that all Vietnamese were in this category of wanting to flee to America, but that Kim being an orphan, had little opportunities and when she fell for Chris, it was her way out of a war zone. And given that it was a war zone at the time, of course she wanted her child raised elsewhere even if she couldn’t follow. I remember feeling like her options were tragic all around, but never generalized to the entire population of Vietnam. That may speak more to me seeing it through white privilege versus reality of how an Asian person would interpret it. I also agree with the casting issues, although I sense that this is less of an issue generally now because many shows are case with who performs it best (like Hamilton being a mixed racial cast despite that not being historically accurate).
I think he has to be older than 18, because it's implied that he's been in the army for several years -- he says that he re-upped after his initial tour of duty was finished. So maybe about 20 at the youngest, but could be a few years older. Definitely no older than late twenties.
@@callalily3994 When talking about pursuing a 17 year old, there is a BIG difference between early 20s and late 20s. It's the difference between questionable and pedo.
I think maybe a little older than 18-19 because he sings of this being a return to Vietnam after he had already done a tour, this time "driving for the embassy" as I recall. But it's only a couple of years difference probably. I think he was naive, but in a flawed situation.
Regardless of my thoughts on the musical or the controversies outlined, this video certainly highlights the main controversies that have plagued it (albeit, there are some factual inaccuracies). What was neglected in this video essay, is that Miss Saigon is simply an updated musical version of the Puccini opera Madame Butterfly. I would be curious to hear viewpoints on why Saigon receives backlash while any production of Butterfly tends to court praise and adoration. The problems outlined for Saigon also persist in Butterfly.
The US relationship with Vietnam brings it's own particular context. You cannot use that and as "aesthetics" and just get a pass with possible ideological undertones.
I am a Vietnamese American theater worker. I took a backstage gig in a Miss Saigon production without knowing what I was getting into. I was the only Vietnamese person in the entire production. Watching the show every night, I saw how horribly offensive this show was. I’m glad I did not invite any of my family members who survived the war.
I’m disgusted by how non-Vietnamese people continue to defend this show. You can make arguments that individual things in the show such as the music is great. That there are kernels of truth depicted. But as a whole, this show should no longer be produced. The source material is inherently rotten. It cannot be divorced from the orientalism. Kim is “strong” but poorly developed once you think of the text in a larger context. And the argument that it provides Asian actors jobs is narrow-minded and condescending. I don’t see anyone making that same argument for minstrel shows.
If you love the music, sing it at karaoke and listen to the recording. But don’t put it onstage. If you care so much about Asian actors, cast and support them in other shows. Fund them to develop new works. Allegiance is a good musical to produce if you want good Asian representation onstage. Lea Salonga also starred in that btw. Or see Vietgone and Poor Yella Rednecks if you want a theater experience that tells a real complex story of Vietnamese people. Miss Saigon had its place in theater history, and some history is meant to be left as history. We can do better.
It's shows a terrible reality in a time period that is very upsetting to many people. This is what happens during war especially if you are under occupation by a foreign country. It's hard to see people striped of rights and pride and dignity. That's why it's hard for me to see movies about slavery. Nobody looks good in it.
Could you please specify exactly what was offensive to you about this show?
I agree. No one can deny that the music is gorgeous, but there are enough professional live recordings now that I think we can just…stop reviving it 🥴
So if there were more Vietnamese people than you would you feel less offended? Would you have invited your family?
It's a story set in a horrible and offensive circumstance. If it was a more modern story about sex workers set in present day Saigon or Bangkok it would be unpleasant circumstances but could still be a good story.
Cameron Macintosh didn't direct Miss Saigon. He produced it at the West End and on Broadway. Nicolas Hytner did. You had some scenes mixed up in your narration. Cris left Kim during the Fall of Saigon in 1975, after which he met and married his American wife, Ellen. They returned to Saigon upon learning that Kim was still alive and that she had a son, Tam, by Cris who was now three years old.
"The movie in my mind" is not annoying Chris. It is "sung thoughts" so none of the marines can hear it. It is also not true that Chris doesn't care. He cares very much. His lines are about how terrible the place is and that Kim has to get out of there.
The best musical I ever seen in my lifetime. It makes me sing, laugh, scream and cry. Unbelievable
Interesting video. I did a dissertation on this and the issues this show faced and I do really like the show because of its score as the score is brilliant. But that being said I really do understand the issue with this musical in which the major problem is that Miss Saigon is an adaptation of Madame Butterfly in which there is a colonial narrative in which Pinkerton (Chris in the musical adaptation) picks a bride to be his wife and its treated as something that is far from serious. Because Miss Saigon is a musical that sticks closely to that narrative it does not aid the show and makes it problematic, added with the fact that it is set during the Vietnam war which was referred to as America's first major loss.
Interesting video though.
I have seen the show many times, and kind of became the guardian/uncle of a young Australian/Japanese girl who played the part of Kim in Brisbane shows. The story of the show was telling the story of what happened many times in this tragic war.
I know first hand, as I served in Vietnam in 1970. I still shed tears to the truth of the experience.
While I understand the controversy...I think it's important to note that the writers/production staff were looking to do their own version of "Madam Butterfly" in a different setting. They chose the Vientam war because there was a picture that stuck with one of the writers of a toddler who has been given to some GI officers with a sign on them from his mother explaining that his father was an American solder and to please take him to the USA to be with his father be safe. They felt it was an act of love on the mom's part and that's why they wrote the story of Miss Saigon. I would have loved to have seen Lea Salonga in the role as she is amazing.
Tbf it's better than Madame Butterfly.
Idk why I say that.
But Madame Butterfly was just boring.
And Butterfly herself makes Kim look like a 3 dimensional character.
A fuss about nothing. It was a great play and no one apart from the easily offended would criticize this. Of course it’s anti white but if it had been the other way round there would be silence.
Correction, the first half of the musical takes place in Vietnam, then Kim and the Engineer flees to Bangkok, Thailand, that's where they meet Ellen, John and Chris and that's where the musical ends, as Ellen says that they will Tam up in Bangkok. Many refugees emigrated to Thailand under the Vietnamese war and the GIs were stationed in Bangkok and other places in Thailand and Thailand supported America in the war
Interesting video but two points I feel need to be made:
The plot of Miss Saigon is heavily based on a very old story which was also made into an opera by Puccini called Madame Butterfly. Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with any specific points made in the video, I think this context is important when considering criticism to the plot. The second point, regarding yellow face; the same producer has people of multiple different races playing white Europeans in his productions including Les Misérables and the Phantom of the Opera. Should this practice also be criticised or are we saying yellow face bad, white face good? lol
I think where we draw the line for races and faces is when makeup or prosthetics are used to represent another race. Yes there are people of colour playing white roles but they do not cake their face with white powder or anything to make themselves look white. In Miss Saigon the cast did use make up to pass off as more Asian. Trying to look like a different race compared to just playing the role is where the boundary is.
@@wickedrainbow8269 so you were totally fine with the casting, but not with the Use of stage make up or prosthetics? I can understand that stance.
Most people are more lenient towards poc playing white actors on stage because there’s no long history of poc actors putting on makeup to impersonate and mock white people (who in this analogy also have less opportunities in entertainment even today) for an audience of laughing poc people
I'd actually watched Miss Saigon on Broadway for the first time during its revival run several years ago. I actually thought it was a fine show; and was moved by the Bui Doi number.
I saw Miss Saigon in 1992 on Broadway. I loved it so much. I memorized the OBC cast album and filled with nostalgia I saw the tour with my daughter a few years ago. I had no idea it became controversial until I bought tickets for the tour and someone told me.
They don't find her in Vietnam but in Bangkok. Cameron Mackintosh was the producer of the show not the director.
The video maker does not know the show at all.
@@mariavanschie7946 lol sounds like you're butthurt your fave was called out for being problematic 🤣
@@ACAB.forcutieI haven't heard valid reasons so no harm done.
Miss Saigon is an interesting musical for me in terms of ranking my favorites. I both love it and can’t watch it. I think it’s an excellent musical with top notch score and lyrics (same composer and lyricists as Les Mis, my #1 favourite musical). The characters are compelling, 3 dimensional, sympathetic, and relatable. The story feels real and compelling. But the whole story is just so incredibly upsetting to me that I can never watch it again. I watched it the first time knowing almost nothing about it and not expecting it to be tragedy - foolish me. I was so utterly devastated by the story and that ending, I practically sunk into depression for a few weeks. Seriously. Mentally and emotionally, I just can’t handle watching it anymore. I can still listen to a lot of the songs in isolation and do frequently. I also play them on my instruments and sing them regularly. But actually watching the show from beginning to end - I just can’t put myself through that. This show absolutely wrecked me.
Imagine what the people must have experienced who truly lived this story. It is a big hommage to them. An honor. Kim is one of the most beautiful characters ever written.
As for the Deadline article, the author seems ignorant when it comes to what went on and sadly continues in countries like Vietnam to this day. I know veterans who’ve been overseas and the Asian prostitutes practically throw themselves at American soldiers. Miss Saigon exaggerates this reality because it’s a musical, but it’s very much an example of art imitating life.
Act 2 happens in Bangkok not in Vietnam
People are pissed because some of this crap actually happened. 11:21 For many of these women surrounded in a warzone and pressed to 'service' these men, many looked to the American men to save them only to be abandoned.
And the children that were fathered by these American soldiers were treated badly and often abandoned as well. The story is a tragedy. It's not a 'white savior' movie at all.
If anything it shows how the American dream was a lie. And yes that was one of the songs. People are not willing to look at the story critically.
White supremacy??? The "white man" was castigated by the piece I was worried white people would either be offended or be filled with guilt.
I see this musical as a story of conflict,' a struggle between what could or should be, and what is or was. I see as part of the human condition; containing both pain AND aspiration, on many levels. In my opinion, the criticisms don't hold a lot of water, they just add another layer or layers to what the musical is about. AND it is an adaptation of another story, SET in the Vietnam war era.
It all goes together: the story, the setting, the book and execution flaws and the criticisms. It all makes perfect sense taken together.
I've always interpreted the story of Miss Saigon to be a tragic story about the failure of the "white savior" trope as Kim falling for a Chris just led to tragedy. This made the story less controversial to me. Watching the vid now though, damn did this musical have its share of problems.
I don’t know much about musical, so when i click this video i am going in blind. But as soon as you explain the first act i can see the problem without even knowing the yellow face accident
I didn't see Kim as weak at all when I saw the musical in May of 1999. Plus, I think in a way, they are playing set in the last 60's and early 70's in which the musical is set. I loved the musical, it's has become a favorite of mine and the sound track
They recently had a version in Manchester which made multiple changes to address the issues and controversies, from gender bending the Engineer, lyric changes, etc. The reviews did say the changes were improvements, though I haven’t seen it myself, so I’m not sure how successful it was to really change it as a whole. Productions have changed the ending to My Fair Lady to varying degrees as it was also deemed problematic, so maybe the minor changes would make a difference (endings especially change the meaning of the story).
Changng The Engineer to a woman weakens the story, imo.
@@trao1938How?
@@AleksandarBell Traditional Vietnamese culture is patriarchal in nature and holds ancestors, elders and the family unit in the highest of regard.Childen are expected to look after, provid fore, and care for their parents up until the time the parents die.
When he was a child, The Engineer's French father abandoned him and his Vietnamese mother. They had nothing and were destitute, so the boy was expected to assume the paternal role of "man of the house."
For The Engineer, this responsibiity entailed having to serve as his mother's pimp. She was suffering from addiction, and his job was enticing French soliders, or anyone with money to follow him back home and have sex with his mother. I can't imagine a boy being tasked with a more horrendous duty than that one, esp. in a culture which dictates boys must protect and value their mothers.
This information helps us better understand why The Engineer grew to be such a cunnng and successful salesman at the bar. He learned his trade at a young age and developed the skills to know exactly how to procure the soldiers' interest in the bargirls. He even communicates with the GI'S in the same overly ingratiating and flirtatious manner that he'd taught the girls to use. Though effective, it's still a very undignified and emasculating behavior for a man in that culture. But it shows the lengths the Engineer is wiillng to go in order to survive. For him, all dignity left the day he became his own mother's pimp.
Now in this current production, I heard The Female Engineer has a different relationship with the bargirls, and treats them with more kindness and respect.But this portrayal undermines everything The Engineer experienced and endured, both as a child pimp and a socially outcast imixed race 'Bui Doi' . He has no affection in him, and no regard for anyone else. He is ruthless. Which is what makes it so endearing when he starts to show a fondness towards Kim's little boy. The Engineer knows better than anyone how this boy will suffer in that society as a mixed-race child. In Tam's face he recognizes his own; that of the boy he once was. With a female Engineer, that connection isn't the same.
The other big difference is: if The Engineer had been a little girl instead of a boy, it's more likely the mother would've sold her into prostitution, instead of the other way around. It was not an uncommon practice back then for a parent, esp one who's also an addict, and in some parts of southeast Asia 'child brides' are unfortunately a reality even today.
@@trao1938good insight of the character and story.
Yes, it maybe controversial but that is not as important as it being a great tragic love story. I like a musical that has a story that could stand on its own with the songs and this play does.
How is this not more popular! This is such a great video. So well edited and researched.
You must be joking. There are 79 factual errors in it. From the description of the characters and scenes to the wrong names of people to making up scenes. The video is completely separated from reality.
This video is a joke.
This is my second favorite musical of all time, behind Les Mis. I am an absolute simp for Schö'nberg's music. Every time I listen to MS I lament the racist aspects, though :( It's very interesting to hear your perspective about the power dynamics involving Americans. From my point of view (a white American), I thought that the play was portraying Americans mostly negatively. The show is made by Europeans, and to me it was clear that they are being heavily critical of America throughout the story - it's not subtle. But I can understand that my perspective has blind spots.
Same..two of the best composers.
@@amandae8437 One of the best composers :)
just to add, there's actually a new engineer now i think in the touring production and she's a woman! joanna ampil is first ever female engineer in miss saigon history. which is so cool. she's filipina and she also played kim in the past. next, if there's gonna be another reproduction of this musical, i'd love to see an all asian cast, including a vietnamese-american chris. i think casting an asian actor for the role of chris will give not just the character but the whole story a whole new meaning, perspective, and depth. afterall, there were a bunch of asian american soldiers that were deployed to vietnam during the war.
The production for Miss Saigon touring asian countries this 2024 has Sean Miley Moore, A QUEER SINGER/ACTOR! I got the opportunity to see him perform the Engineer and HE REVOLUTIONIZED this character let me tell you. He completely changed how this character's been portrayed by the previous actors. Give a look at his performance as the Engineer from australia! ❤
Miss Saigon is my favorite musical. I love the soundtrack and pretty much know the songs by heart. I've seen it about 5 times already but I haven't seen the revival version. I've heard they've made some changes over the years and the revival even got rid of Ellen's song. If it comes back to our area again, I would love to watch it again. It just holds a special place in my heart (I was 12 when it debuted in the West End). In the meantime, watching Les Mis (also a favorite) this weekend.
They didn't get rid of Ellen's song, but they did change it. In the original, she was ready to fight to keep Chris. They felt this made her unsympathetic, when really nothing was her fault. So they changed it to being something more along the lines of not wanting to stand in the way of what Chris needs, but also how it would break her heart to lose him.
I am asian but not Vietnamese but i can tell u this. Asian women are not weak. One just look at the movie mulan. It’s bc she is not woman enough to some ppl that she is a well enough legend that ppl even have stories about her and make movies her. And second when my family used to own convenient stores my own aunt was strong enough to shove a guy that was trying to steal from her and made him cry. Oh and of course there was that one elderly chinese lady that was able to wack with a random stick back to that idiot that punched her in the face for no good reason during the pandemic. She got him good. 😆
I disagree - Kim is not a weak character at all she's probably the strongest in the whole show...
Stop crying.It's based on" Madame Butterfly"...and It's a fantastic show...And Lea And Eva are PERFECT
as a broadway fan, and musical theatre fan in general, i still dont know a single song from miss saigon. i wonder if the community is just trying to phase it out? well in any case, i am appalled to finally find out what the musical is even about. i had no idea it was this gross and problematic! i live in hawaii and i vaguely remember seeing ads for this musical (not sure if a tour came to my island to perform, or if it was a local rendition of it put on by local theatre? i just remember the ads for this musical and i strongly remember the miss saigon logo).
if this musical were to ever come back, the whole thing would need to be rewritten from the ground up. put a vietnamese person in charge of rewriting the book, redoing the music and especially the lyrics, etc. everything would need to change. it might not be recognizable by those who saw the original, but everything about it gives me the ick now!
This video is not about Miss Saigon. Don't let it mislead you. Listen to the 1989 London vast recording, it's hauntingly well written.
Really enjoyed your analysis and perspective, especially from an Asian perspective. This show has always been problematic; I feel like people only enjoy it for the music, because it's the same people who created Les Mis.
I have a few comments and questions for you:
A) Chris isn't an old man: he's a soldier fighting in the Vietnam war. His age would have been around the drafting age back then. Probably between 18-25. Nobody denies that it's creepy that he hooks up with 17 year old Kim. But if you're gonna criticize, then you should be accurate. It's a problematic romance anyway without misleading about Chris's actual age for a soldier.
B) Act 2 is in Thailand, not Vietnam. Kim and the engineer have fled Vietnam and they are in Thailand by that point. Not sure if this changes anything in your analysis, but they did get out of Vietnam.
C) for your comments about the brothel girls in the beginning, wouldn't ALL brothel girls be portrayed as "weak and dependent on men" in any settings? Even if the brothel was in America or Europe, it would still have the same problematic framing of desperate women and patronizing, dominant men who use women for sex.
D) as an American, I never found this show as pro American propaganda. It was created by white French men. It always felt very "European critical of the Vietnam war and American involvement." Now, these are still white European, so it still remains problematic and racist overall. But I never found it pro America. It's very critical of how America negatively affected Vietnam, and 2/3 of the American characters are kinda unlikable and unsympathetic. Kim is the only sympathetic character by the end, because the audience wants her to succeed. She's shown as selfless to do anything for her son, while the Americans are all selfish.
E) do you think the show was wrong or racist for casting mainly Filipina actresses Lea Salonga and Eva Noblezada instead of Vietnamese leading women? Or do you think it was actually a good opportunity to showcase Asian actress regardless of if they're Vietnamese in particular? They're both amazing singers so I'm glad they were cast, but from your Asian perspective, do you think it's wrong to cast Filipino for Vietnamese characters?
In regards to your last point, while it’s great more Asian actors and actresses are being casted, it still not right having Filipino actors and actresses in place of what should be Vietnamese actors and actresses. Similar to his point around the 12 min mark referring to random gibberish in place of actual Vietnamese, Asia is a very large and diverse continent, and the term Asian encompasses all and more of it. Each country has its own distinct history and culture, to use an umbrella term to refer to the people is and use in casting is difficult. It’s reemphasizes the idea that “all Asian are the same” and that “no one will notice the difference”
@@Heyitsann
I agree that substituting gibberish for actual Vietnamese was purely racist. However, the majority of the lyrics are sung in English and not Vietnamese.
Now, I agree with you that it's best to cast Vietnamese actors if possible. But do you think Maria etc in West Side Story needs to always be played by Puerto Rican actors? Do you think that Romeo and Juliet can only be played by Italians (since they're from Verona)?
Personally, I have no issue with race swapping Romeo and Juliet because their nationality isn't as important as the family feud, romance aspect. Ditto for West Side Story, to a degree. It's a modern take on Romeo and Juliet but it could also be white vs black in some productions instead of white vs Latino. The race issues are still present that way, so it keeps the symbolism and maintains the tone and meaning of the story.
Miss Saigon is based on Madame Butterfly, with the country swapped to Vietnamese during the Vietnam war. Obviously, this is far more specific. But I don't have any issues with local productions hiring any Asian actors who try out. If you hold Broadway or West End to a higher standard. But you can't always expect every local city doing their own productions to make such restrictions. What if those cities have a large Asian American population overall but not many Vietnamese Americans? They would still want to give Asian Americans the chance to tryout but they can't always realistically expect Vietnamese Americans to dominate the auditions if there is a small or non-existent Vietnamese presence there.
@@l.n.3372 Absolutely, I agree with you. In smaller local productions it’s fine to be relaxed on casting to see where talent fits the role best, but of course West End and Broadway will be held at a higher standard and should try to cast more specifically. Because of their grand scale, specific casting will show representation to audiences, while their platform will promote new and talented artists to the mainstream. Although to help showcase more diverse performers though there should be more diverse content to start. Either more stories from each culture or more stories where race isn’t a definer and talented individuals can play because of their talent
@@Heyitsann
I think this issue also gets to the problem of "what if the best actor/singer wasn't the correct ethnicity or nationality?" For example, it's hard to deny that Lea Salonga is one of the best female Broadway leading ladies ever. Her voice is insanely powerful. If they hadn't cast her for Miss Saigon, we wouldn't have had her as Jasmine and Mulan singing voice, nor would we have had her as Eponine in Les Mis. I'm a huge fan of hers and I would hate if she was never "discovered" simply because the casting director couldn't audition Filipina actresses. If she was a better singer than any Vietnamese actress they auditioned, then is nationality more or less important than talent/ability for an acting/singing role?
Eva Noblezada also wasn't Vietnamese, but she was an equally powerful singer. And thanks to her casting in Miss Saigon, we got to hear her powerful voice as Eurydice in Hades Town, one of my favorite musicals ever. Her time in Miss Saigon is what made her popular and known enough to cast her in Hades Town. And likewise to Lea Salonga, it would have been a shame to miss out on this amazing talent because she wasn't Vietnamese.
Always a difficult question.
@@Heyitsannthe casting team actually went all over the world and searched for their Kim for over a year. They were looking for a particular voice and Lea happened to be the one to fit the bill. They filmed the making of Miss Saigon back in 1989 and if you watch it, you'll understand why they were insistent on casting Lea again for the Broadway role (she was the original Kim after all in West End). They already knew how difficult it was to find their Kim so they wanted to go with who they already know.
Good video but you forgot to mention that it is based on the opera "Madame Butterfly"
The show has had its fair share of controversy but its still one of the modern musical successes. The original London company is still THE one to beat.
#imho
My father (who served two tours in Viet Nam) said the story is spot on...especially the bar scenes. In fact, he said it was a little too real.
I think many of the controversial points being made now are because people are looking at the story through a modern lens. Remember, the world was VERY different 50 years ago. The War itself was a terrible failure for so many, which is the main theme for the show, and a small story in the broader narrative of Asian history.
As noted in the video, newer works focus on the perseverence and resilience which have come in the years since. Bravo to those storytellers who are showing the light after such a dark time!
I can’t lie as a Chinese Asian I couldn’t care less about Jonathan price wearing makeup and whatnot to be the engineer. However, I do also understand why many Asians would be angry about the casting of a white dude in an Asian role.
As for people saying “it’s 70s typical toxic masculinity” ITS SET IN THE FUCKING 70s the fuck do you want💀yes it’s racist and that’s bad but at the same time, this was probably somewhat realistic at brothels and bars back during the Vietnam war. Were you expecting the women to be “powerful independent woman”? Were the average men back then treating women like they’re treated now? No.
Yeah miss Saigon is problematic and needed changes but to judge it like it’s set in the 2020s is so stupid imo.
Jonathan Pryce's role was French-Vietnamese and the point of his role was that he was not accepted on any side because he was a "half breed". It shouldn't even be controversial in the first place, but modern productions erased this aspect of the character, because of the backlash it received during its initial broadway run.
There are still plenty of bar girls in Saigon, Bangkok and Las Vegas among others. I don't think they are treated very well in modern times and wouldn't have nice stories with happy endings either.
What footage are you using? Is that the tour with Jon Jon?
I saw it with the original Broadway cast when I was young. I was just barely old enough to understand and not be shocked by the sex. I ended up seeing it 3 times.
It was great how they did a search to find Lea Salonga. Why they thought it would be fine to have a male actor in yellow face... well... that was bad. I wasn't really old enough then to understand that (or even notice from the actors at a distance) or to understand the other problems with it.
But Lea Salonga was amazing. That I could tell.
The engineer was half Asian / half European. I know lots of people like that. Some look very Asian, some look very European. It is just as racist to insist they have an Asian for the part.
@@dougcorcoran5455 Dude wore prosthetic eyelids. If they wanted the character to specifically look Asian, they should have had an Asian actor. If they didn't care what he looked like or wanted him to be European, then cast Jonathan Price and have him look like Jonathan Price.
@@Sam_on_UA-cam the character was half Asian. Would most likely have a mix of features. It doesn't make sense that it is bad to have a white actor but would be fine to have an Asian actor. Seems kinda racist.
@@dougcorcoran5455 They specifically made him up to look Asian. I don't recall him being half European in the actual text of the show. Maybe there was a throw away line somewhere I missed, but it sounds like a justification after the fact because they got a lot of flack and protests for it when the show opened on Broadway. There is a long and racist history of yellowface, similar to blackface.
Either the character's racial background is important to the role or not. If it is, cast someone of that race. If it isn't, cast whoever you want and let them look like their own race.
For Kim, her race was important to the role. And they did global auditions for the best Asian performer for the role and found the absolute treasure that is Lea Salonga. And then they put Jonathan Price in yellowface...
@@Sam_on_UA-cam a problem for the perpetualy offended. If they had a mixed race performer you would probably complain because he didn't look Vietnamese enough or he didn't look French enough.
So many inconsistencies and wrong information in this video. One, it’s NOT a play, rather a musical and Cameron Macintosh wasn’t the director, he was the producer.
My high school took us to see Miss Saigon and I absolutely hated it from minute one. I was 17 years old (y'know, the same age Kim is in the show) and was appalled at the portrayal of Asian people. I left with a headache too, from gritting my teeth the whole damn show.
I get a headache from people who want to hush the stories of these real and brave people that existed.
Yeah people don't understand how bad the war was. The vietnamese were treated badly by the American soldiers? Yeah Yeah they where. Showing it hurts.
@@kellharris2491 The Vietnamese were treated far worse by the Vietnamese. That's the whole reason why the Americans were there in the first place.
Po-leeese!
Technically a mixed actor would have been better. But the Engineer was half white.
Thuy is not pronounced as "twai", but as "thoo-y". Also, he is not upset that she is "marrying a white man". Firstly, they are not getting married and secondly, het is mad that she broke her vow and is with the enemy now, an American, whatever the color.
I would say it was both. A white man was considered not one of them. Not their race. He even wanted to kill her son.
Not to defend the racist content, but please keep in mind that Miss Saigon is a modern retelling of Madama Butterfly which was first performed in 1906 and was definitely steeped in colonialism. Many of the aspects of Miss Saigon that are the most controversial are drawn from Madama Butterfly.
The main difference is the depiction of the Americans. In Miss Saigon, Chris is a very sympathetic character whereas in Madama Butterfly Pinkerton (the Chris equivalent) is openly a monster and a borderline paedophile. It’s far more clear about the power imbalance and also, Butterfly doesn’t want to leave to go to America, but Pinkerton returns to take the child back and, distraught, Butterfly kills herself. This is different from the portrayal in Miss Saigon where Kim wants her boy to go to the “better world” of America
Kim has such huge "born sexy yesterday" vibes + the white savior orientalist tone of it all makes everything very unpleasant to watch, but I'm glad the show has also served as a platform for Asian actors to get their breakouts.
These truths happening during war were indeed unpleasant. But very important to keep telling.
My HS drama director had wanted to do Miss Saigon for years. But in hindsight it is kind of telling that the only thing that stopped her was how much pulling off the helecopter scene would cost... and not how we had maybe one or 2 Asian kids tops in the drama program any given semester.
In its defense: it does teach about the left behind childrenand it did illustrate everyone that was left behind from the US pulling out.
Thanks for the recap! I totally didn't remember anything except the Pimp's song. XD
My dad is a Vietnam vet. They hate miss Saigon too because of how inaccurate it portrays post war life for most of them.
He hates something because thousands of people have lived it but most people did not?
I'm sure that depending on which year and which area soliders were deployed, the experiences are going to be different.
It is a story about certain characters. It doesn't portray "most" of anyone. No story does.
The American G.I. is "like, an old man"? As a solider in Vietnam, he's likely between 18 and 21, maybe 25. In other words, he's relatively near the same age as Kim. The actor cast may not look between 18 and 20, but nor does the actress playing Kim necessarily look 17. This video makes odd assumptions.
The only valid criticism I see is in casting Jonathan Pryce, but even that makes sense to me in terms of the stylized nature of the Engineer, who is something like the Emcee in Cabaret--a very styled character who more embodies a perspective than represents a three-dimensional human being. Indeed "The American Dream" reminds me a lot of the "Money Song" from Cabaret. I'm glad the role is now cast with an Asian actor (as it was when I saw it), but I don't think having originally giving it to Pryce indicates a racist perspective or "Orientalist" perspective.
First time to hear about “Miss Saigon”. Thanks for bringing it in and background about it
The show is the opposite if what is presented here.
This video misrepresented the show. I really liked the show but this video is by someone who doesn't understand it.
Well-made summary of the controversies stirred up about "Miss Saigon". It really is fascinating how some art manages to be timeless, other art ages poorly, and still other art sits somewhere in-between.
While I do wish specifically Vietnamese professionals could be the ones to tell Vietnamese stories, the musical really does pave the way I guess... Filipino actors have pretty much become legends on the musical.
I would love to hear your thoughts on Marvel's Shang Chi and how that movie simultaneously gives Asian professionals space and also kind of perpetuates stereotypes (like "desexualization" of Asian men in how the lead character does not get a romantic subplot in the guise of giving platonic relationships a space in pop culture media, and almost creating an "Asian girl with dyed hair" stereotype).
Thank you for the great discussion video!!❤
This is a very well put together review. Apparently there was a new revival last year at the Sheffield Crucible. I didn't see it, but it tried to update a few things. Not sure if anything else will become of that production.
Sub'd in the first minute. Excellent video!
This video is crap.
So now review Madame Butterfly, which Miss Saigon is based on, where a male typically is cast as the female lead. I grew up in the 70’s & this is a good depiction of prominent 70’s culture. Does “All in the family” ring a bell? We need to take Miss Saigon in the context for when it takes place. A time in the world many people would us rather forget. If we forget the mistakes we made in the past we are destined to repeat them in the future.
I saw the revival, and it was great. One of my favorite plays.
I don't agree with any of this nonsense, Kim was not weak, she was so strong, Johnathan Price was the perfect Engineer, face make up or not. later Asian Engineer actor in revivals lacked charter and empathy. I saw the Original Cast in London in 1989 at Drury Lane, i shall never forget this amazing Musical packed full of heart fulled songs and drama.
I understand the discussions regarding yellowface or blackface or something similar. And sometimes it even confuses me. Take for example the classic Doctor Who serial The Talons of Weng-Chiang where a white actor dons yellowface to portray an Asian magician. A good preformance, but also cringy when you realize the guy is not really Asian. But the baffling part to me is that story features actual Asian actors as extras or in minor roles, making me wonder why the story didn't use any of these guys to portray the role.
One of the most ridiculous ones is the movie of The Good Earth. The original choices for the two leads were a white man and an Asian woman, playing an Asian couple. But the Hays Code, which was the rules for American movies at the time, said that you can't show an interracial relationship on screen, and so they weren't allowed to have people of two different races playing the couple. And, rather than find an Asian man so that they'd have two Asian people playing the Asian couple, they instead cast a white woman so that they had two white people playing the Asian couple.
@@callalily3994 Wow. That's really a bad choice.
If you’re wondering why: the reason is racism
The part of the engineer is supposed to be a half Vietnamese/ half French guy. I know lots of mixed race kids and some look more Asian and others look more European. It really shouldn't matter who plays the part.
@@dougcorcoran5455 But what does that have to do with Doctor Who, which is what my main comment is about?
I wish he would have expanded at the end where he says that “shows and movies that play Asian actors or take place in Asia don’t usually feature the Asian actors or Asian Americans actors who should be playing those roles in those environments.” I would like to further understand what he means by that.
Are you upset because the depictions are historically inaccurate, or because they're unpleasant to watch? Let's put some perspective into this: It's upsetting that Kim is being sold into prostitution at 17. But in reality, she more likely woud've been 13, or even younger. It's upsetting that the dancing bar girls in bikinis had to - or were more likely forced to- turn to prositution for survival, but the opening number in Miss Saigon is by far a more sanitized version of their ordeal, than what actually took place.
Complaining that the Vietnamese characters are portrayed as 'opportunists' is ludicrous-- what other choice did they have in order to stay alive? As many times as I have watched 'The Heat is on in Saigon," I've never once found it to be pleasant, or believed any of the bar girls were having as joyful a time as they were letting on, If it feels lurid, degrading, and dehumanizing, it's because that's exactly what this experience was for these women.
Watching the women getting manhandled and treated like property is supposed to make the audience cringe, because unlike the GI's we are not de-sensitized to these abusive conditions.
Miss Saigon is by no means a 'White Savior' story. Anyone paying attention can recognize that it's about America's realization of its own failures to protect the South Vietnamese from their North Vietnamese adversaries, and the human toll this war took on both the soldiers and the Vietnamese. The Americans are not portrayed as heroes- in fact it's difficult to find any story about the Vietnam War which strongly depicts US soldiers as heroic and proud. Upon returning to the states these men were often characterized as savages and 'baby killers' by their own countrymen. Many of these soldiers could not adapt to life after wartime and lost their minds, became homeless, dropped out of society, suffered from severe drug problems and PTSD and/or took their own lives.
Christopher Scott wants depserately to believe he has achieved some good fighting in Vietnam, and that bringing Kim back home will be living proof he did. It's a flawed justification, and it illustrates how deeply damaged and naive he is, because with or without Kim, the nightmares will still happen..
While i am delighted that the role of Engineer is now only relegated to actors of Asian descent- and find the producer's claims of ''trying unsuccessfully to find a better replacement for Pryce' absolutely ridiculous, I also find a vital component to the character regrettably missing in all future portrayals.
I saw Pryce (post prosthetics) in the original Broadway show, and his performance was so phenomenal and spellbinding that it devastated me. The Engineer is "Bui-Doi," half French-half Vietnamese, and the contrast of Pryce's western facial features to those of his Asian cast members was heartbreakingly evident. All his life the secrets were written on his face, and he could not escape or hide from them. He could not blend in. This is why he was forever doomed to such a degrading fate in Saigon as a pimp and an outsider, and why his 'American Dream of moving to a country where he could more easily assimilate mattered so much to him. It's why he developed the deep affection towards Tam, because he recognized himself in that child.
In Pryce's performance I felt the intensity of his torment and self-contempt lurking beneath all the smiles and ingratiating cordialities. Whereas in all the other productions, The Engineer seems to exist for the purpose of providing comic-relief and tension breaking levity, like an adorable teddy bear.
Well said! I think some people are too uninformed and racist to understand this. The show is indeed not about white saviors and the depictions are indeed historically accurate. It just doesn't fit anti-white people's agenda's nowadays. Which is, including silencing the real people this story has happened to in war, very rude.
well said, I think. Thanks.
I definitely agree with your assessment on Jonathan Pryce's engineer. There was just a quality to his performance unmatched by others who played it. His performance of American Dream was really devastating in my opinion. He sees America as some fantasy and gets excited just seeing a car (I know people who lived in poverty and found cars a luxury. I can only imagine how much worse this case may be for the engineer). It really shows how he lived in poverty and was never accepted by anyone in Vietnam (American or Vietnamese). The white casting for the role also gives another layer to the character that is lost in Asian castings (I'm saying this as an Asian. I'm not racist). I also really dislike how they changed the engineer to not care about Tam in newer productions. He just became such a bland character recently.
@@idk-zt8rx One of the most important aspects of this role is that he is not accepted by the Vietnamese because he doesn't look Asian.
@@idk-zt8rx Well said. The Engineer is not a jolly guy. He is ruthless, and we aren't supposed to root for him.However, by tthe time he comes on stage to sing about The American Dream, we come to understand him better. He was a strange looking boy, his mom was an addict, and after the dad left them his job was to find French soldiers and persuade them to have sex with his mother for money. That tells us so much about why The Engineer was the way he was;, being a pimp was all her ever knew how to be.. It's so tragic.
In the UK's revival of Miss Saigon this summer, The Engineer was changed to a female. I do not agree with that choice, because the power dynamic is not the same. Males have greater agency and authority in Vietnamese culture, so to be a male and selli your own mother is a far more shameful and devastating predicament to be in. Plus, if The Engineer were a girl, it's more likely that the mother would've sold the daughter to the soldiers.
The thing on controversy #2 is that it is really happening in real life.
When Kim and Chris are separated it is unfair to say that he is sleeping around and she is obsessed. Chris is portrayed as more obsessed. Having screaming nightmares about Kim while she is surviving all on her own, while raising a child. The helicopter is not bringing Chris to Vietnam. To the USA. Kim is in Saigon. Kim and the Engineer fled to Thailand, Bangkok. Not to Vietnam.
That's not obsession... that's trauma. Chris was dealing with PTSD
In fact both are survivors of war and are desperately trying to survive. Kim has lost her entire family. Chris is all she has. It's a human story.
@@BlakeJAskew That's true.
I heard such acclaim over this musical even though I’ve never seen it! Can’t wait to watch the video! 🤩
It's literally an interpretation of Madame Butterfly. All of the themes come from Puccini's opera. The story itself is based on the novel Madame Chrysanthème, which is grounded in a true story. It's just like how Rent is a modern interpretation of Puccini's La Boheme.
From what I understand, when this originally came out, there weren't enough Asian musical theater actors to put on the whole show in the West End and Broadway. Musical theater should always choose the most talented performer, regardless of race, without fear of being accused of being racist or "white washing."
Finally, Chris isn't an "old guy." He's around 22-23 years old.
I pity you for not being able to enjoy entertainment without being offended by everything.
It’s only offensive if the story isn’t true. All of this happened, it’s history. With that said, I would not have done yellowface. In a perfect world it wouldn’t matter what ethnicity played what part, but if you want someone to be appear as an ethnicity, you can’t use prosthetics to achieve that goal. Either stick with the ethnicity of the person, or just find someone of the ethnicity you want.
You’re videos seem very entertaining I hope this is part of your come up!
A lot of us adopted got a chance to audition.
All I can say is, letting a race who actually experienced notable historical events tell their own story is as authentic as it can get. Although it is worth noting that there is room for outside perspective to balance out any internal biases a certain race has regarding their own version of the story. Because whether we like it or not, there are histories where people want future generations to remember only the "good" stuff from their past, whilst focusing less or entirely leaving out the "negative" or less desirable stuff. Edit: Nice video btw! Very insightful.
Not that this generally takes away from the controversy but isn't Miss Saigon basically Puccini's Madame Butterfly updated for people who would never go to an opera? Just like how Rent is La Boheme updated for people who would never go to an opera. The plot is the same but you change early 20th Japan to Vietnam in order for everything to make sense to people.
Oh my god, awesome video!!! So well put together and presented!!
You must be joking. There are 79 factual errors in it. From the description of the characters and scenes to the wrong names of people to making up scenes. The video is completely separated from reality.
This guy either has never seen the show or didn't understand it. The whole video is a joke.
Funny how in the comments we have actual vietnamese people saying how uncomfortable they are with Miss Saigon and a bunch of idiots responding them with "But I like it so it's fine"
Actual Vietnamese people have opinions but they only their individual opinions. Maybe they find the subject matter makes them uncomfortable. If they want they could make a more modern story about present day bar girls that is more to their liking.