The "Non-Binary" "Viking" Grave: What Do We REALLY Know?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- That Viking age grave they found in Finland (in 1968) that's been all over the internet this week? Yeah, I've heard of it. It's... it's kinda my thing to read up on the latest archaeology, especially if it's Norse and Viking related!
What did the grave contain? What does DNA and genetic testing actually tell us about the person buried in it? Is the jewellery, weaponry and clothing important? Were there two swords in the same grave? Is the person non-binary?
Well you'll just have to watch the video and find out, won't you? Eh?
NOTE: Being non-binary is NOT a choice. Using the term 'non-binary' as a label and self-description is a choice, is what I mean.
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"We just don't know" = the most important sentence any researcher must learn to be comfortable with, in archeology, in history, in humanities, in stem, in the medical field... Sometimes we don't have all of the answers. and it's important to be able to put your hand up and say we do not know, we don't have a way to find out. We can guess, we can make theories, but some things cannot be confirmed.
The same thing my history teacher told me a few years back, still remember it to this day, great teacher.
@@Visibletoallusers12 Same thing as discussions I just had on deciding who was "good" or "bad" about people we know a little about, but not what was gossip and slander, propaganda, and recent romantic novels, where anyone is free to speculate, but we still do not know.
This discussion is underrated.
No reason to leave some of the "hard" sciences out of that. Don't let the physicists fool you, an awful lot of their work is running on unproven hypotheses based on limited observations, especially when you get into astrophysics. Educated speculation as a basis for research is about the best we can do a lot of the time in many fields.
Be nice if the real anti-science types would stop acting like that little revelation was some kind of "gotcha" moment that justifies chucking out all of human learning, though.
@@richmcgee434 This!! 🙄 There seem to be some really pervasive popular beliefs that a) Scientific hypotheses can never be updated to reflect new data, b) If you do update your theory, the whole thing was invalid from the start, c) Saying "we don't know yet" is some kind of indictment of the whole scientific method, and d) Scientific "theory" means "we're just making stuff up", not "here is the best potential hypothesis we can state based on current data & research".
This doesn't seem to just be a problem amongst people who're actively anti-science, but frankly amongst most of us as general population who don't necessarily understand how scientific research & theory works...? It's been particularly observable in people's responses to pandemic-related medical research + recommendations.
I'd love to see more active primary & secondary level education re the basics of the scientific method, logical fallacies, and oratorical techniques? Think it'd really help future generations develop much better critical thinking...
Did Jimmy seriously think that we wouldn’t notice the obvious? He got a haircut and it looks really really good.
Yep, he does! :-)
Oh ya! He looks sharp!
Seriously sharp-looking trim. Very nice.
Looking goooood, Jimmy!
Really loved the long hair too though, but I have no say whatsoever over anyone else's body so as long as Jimmy's happy with it, I'm happy.
Thank you for this. As somebody who’s NB, it’s extremely reassuring when somebody is critical of branding this grave as non binary. An AMAB wearing ‘womens clothing’ doesn’t inherently mean they were on the trans spectrum in any way, and a lot of people don’t seem to think about that.
Intersex people, or people with Klinefelter can choose for themselves and dress how they feel, and we can’t do that to them to gender them post-mortem. So thank you.
Further, I am unaware of any data that indicates people with Klinefelter Syndrome are any more likely to be identify as non-binary than someone without the condition. The vast majority still identify as male. And so, it would be a hugely presumptuous of the scientific community, not to mention disrespectful - to the person, people with Klinefelter Syndrome, and the non-binary community - to label or presume the person as non-binary on the basis of their genetic makeup.
@@evilwelshman Absolutely. A genetic condition has no power over identity and exists exclusively. Also, identity and expression also live exclusively to one another, so who are we as people in the 21st Century to understand this grave’s identity just from a few articles of clothing? We could be interpreting it entirely wrong, so this grave being branded as non-binary isn’t the wisest move.
Generally speaking, and I'm coming very much from an a) very modern perspective and b) that of a person with a background in the social sciences / a radical empiricist here:
I think it's a rather sensible operating assumption to presume that this whole "gender identity" situation is, in a nutshell, something very 21st century in general. This is not to say that identities aren't valid - just that we have to understand historical people as people of their time. And that, just as a 16th century equivalent of myself arguably wouldn't have seen herself within a theoretical framework of systematic misogyny, a Viking arguably wouldn't have seen themselves as "non-binary". Neither of these mean that women / enbies weren't deserving of respect in their times - merely that how we frame any of these and how individuals would have regarded themselves opposite society: we either have documentary evidence for, or we'd be safer, academically speaking, not making assumptions that super-impose our modern notions upon people of ages past.
In that sense: fully on board with "we don't gender - we sex - skeletons".
Klinefelter is always male. Generally speaking, if you have a Y chromosome you're a male. Klinefelter is XXY. There are also many men out there who don't even realise they have Klinfelter other than that they might have realised that they are less developed than other males. Same with Turner syndrome - always a female just with one X instead of two. It's not right to put either as intersex conditions even though some intersex activists and lobbyists of do it to massively inflate their numbers. They are in the categories of their own condition.
Observation with caveats. (As an Intersex person of Middle Eastern Descent.)
We have information from various sources, including the Talmud, of people with Klinefelter type presentation being an identifiable class of persons. (Taller men who do not grow facial hair and have small external genitalia.)
With the caveat that Greek/Aramaic speakers around the Western Mediterrean in late antiquity are unlikely to have any cultural commonalities with Nordic communities around 1000 BCE; it is plausible that Klinefelter presentation MIGHT have constituted a recognized category in that community as well.
I know just enough (which is not enough) about Nordic culture to know the existence of Seidhr men. I don't know whether men could be born into that identity or whether it was associated with natural beardlessness.
As you said, it's impossible to know whether any individual in a grave fits into a social category. I think it's interesting in its own right whether those social categories exist or not.
(One factoid that I found interesting from the Talmud - were not allowed to be enslaved.)
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing :)
I want to remind people that Finland, while a neighbor to Scandinavia, did have a very different mythology and culture. So what applies to Scandinavian mythology and beliefs, might not and probably does not apply to this grave. Finns did not go on vikings and were not vikings for example. They did raid (just like everyone did at that time), but not in the same manner. I study Finnish prehistory (mostly iron age/viking age) and mythology and their ancient beliefs.
I have a huge interest in this if you have any resources you could share with me - Finnish beliefs have been very patchy to study and I would love to fill the gaps in my knowledge.
@@robbaldwin2402 we have a very large collection of Finnish folklore in Finnish National Archive and I think it's digitalised and at least some of it is translated.
@@dangerousalphabets5267 I can read slowly in Finnish, so it's not a disaster if it's not all translated, but I will delve into it. I visited them once, but there was an overwhelming number of texts!
@@robbaldwin2402 If you can visit and you are interested in something specific you can inform them before you come and they will find everything on that subject for you.
Also, very sorry for the very late reply. I do not get messages of replies for some reason
I do think that "nonbinary" isnt the worst word to use in the headlines for the topic because it's talking about the possibility that the person wasn't a man or woman in their life, whether it was personal or not, and that... can be connected to their intersex reality (see: alyonit/tumtum/saris/etc) but I also really think the article could've been titled better BECAUSE it's an intersex individual and the potential that they're nonbinary seems almost a footnote to the actual discovery.
Ironically this is the opposite issue to several old Joan D'Arc documentaries where they called her presentation "intersex" when androgynous or nonbinary would've been more accurate so it's interesting to see how perisex cis society has shifted its inaccuracy in like... ten years.
Considering that many magic-workers seem to have been female, this person may have been seen as partaking of both and honored in this way. The fact that the grave goods were not especially 'rich' may only speak to what was available to those who did the burial. The curved blade? My wild-assed conjecture is that it might have meant "Even if you're still annoyed at us, please stay in your grave, and don't haunt us." I'm very interested in the later, second sword..maybe an upgrade? (Also, cute haircut.)
I like your idea about the sickle. Like they viewed this person as magical (a Seiðr practitioner?) and thought they might rise from the dead. The sickle could have been placed to stop them getting back up.
The idea kinda reminds me of "vampire graves" where the corpse would be re-arranged or have stakes or heavy items put on it to prevent the person rising up, I think they've been found in a lot of medieval Christian Europe and even in colonial America. Perhaps it could be a similar thing?
@@benjalucian1515 any sword whether in usable condition or not was an expensive item. The lack of hilt is a minor thing compared to the making of a sword. A magic worker might chose not to have valuable metal items. They may have been buried with much expensive fabrics and furs but that didn't survive.
@@benjalucian1515 and apparently the furs survived along with indications of feathers. You don't strip off a hilt in order to "dishonor " the person. Unless the hilt is heavily ornamented with precious stones, the blade costs more, you would destroy the blade or simply not bury the sword with them. This is an honourable burial of someone who was respected.
@@benjalucian1515 we do know about viking burials and what a sword meant. I don't know why you are being such a bigot to insist that a sword missing part of a hilt is contempt. Nothing in the burial suggests that except your hangups.
Above all, the most important thing to remember about genes and chromosomes is: no matter how complicated you think genetics is, it is more complicated than that. And that's not even getting into the relationship between genotype (what specific genes a person or other creature has) and phenotype (the result of how all those genes have interacted and been expressed in a live organism), which is, unbelievably, even more complicated.
This is a take so thoughtful and respectful towards everyone involved in, and everyone potentially affected by, stories like this. Thank you!
I really appreciate your take on this and your understanding of gender. It is so nice to listen to someone who understands there is a difference between sex and gender
Nonbinary and intersex classicist here: thank you for this. You managed to be true to the historicity of the human person while remaining incredibly respectful of us without tiptoeing around us, which is a refreshing change of pace from a perisex binary person. Your hair also looks great!
Well done on fixing the audio issue, and thank you for being very careful to sort of “depoliticize” this story and emphasize the facts of the archeological evidence, not the bs narrative being presented in the vast majority of mainstream press about the findings.
You look fresh and healthy. Much beter than a few months ago!
Fascinating video. You're right about your title being clickbait. I wasn't subscribed but the title intrigued me when it appeared in my recommendations as did your channel name Welsh Viking...I studied in Aberystwyth and my first honeymoon was to the Lofoten Islands in Norway, so Welsh and Viking interest me, too. Archaeology throws up lots of fascinating puzzles. I've recently been interested in the site of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, a pre agricultural site, which is so mysterious and throws up more questions than answers.
You're so good at turning a clickbait topic into not just a video to call out the bullshit, but also suggest some actual new and interesting ideas, I really love it.
Great vid, and I, too, want to know what's up with the sickle, it's a bit odd. Wish I would have had you as an archeology proff, would have been fascinating fun. Thanks!
Thank you so much for talking about non-binary people. And that there is a whole history outside of the binary x
Just discovering your channel because of Max Miller over at Tasting History (and the Mari Lwyd). As someone who enjoys history but never made it a profession, “We don’t know” is my favorite thing to hear a scholars say, especially when that’s the start of the whole discussion. It means that after that we’ll be getting an exploration of information, and not a broadside of dry drivel. So thank you!
The sickle really stood out to me too.
"That's just part of the Human Condition"
Louder again for the people in the back
Also loved the video, I am also very curious about the sickle blade and kept going back to thinking of that
History is just interesting and I like hearing about things that I may never know
I think what I appreciate the most about this particular video is you pointing out Archaeology 101: you don't assume.
The sickle is the mystery I want to know, and it gives me an incredible amount of stress that we never will. Was it because they were murdered? Or were they holding it when they were buried? Maybe they were a very important person in farming community and were it was placed there to continue farming in the next life. That's almost certainly not right but I think it's a cool idea. Great video!
Please keep in mind that the grave was in Finland, not in the traditionally Norse ("viking") areas. Can we please stop calling everyone who lived in Northern Europe during the Early Middle Ages a "Viking"?
I gotta agree with Jimmy. Whatever about the gender, WHAT'S WITH THE SICKLE?
Firstly, Haircut looks schmick as Mr 😀
Secondly, thank you once again for your wisdom on this story....got tricked by click bait about this myself.
Thirdly, my take on the scickle is they were possibly beheaded for who they chose to be, and it was a sign of shame.
Fourth.....off topic, have been meaning to ask, how did the Vikingr shave? Am still working through your videos, so not sure if you have covered it sorry.
Fith and final question (sorry) has there ever been any information about how the Vikingr people looked at mental health? Am curious if they were feared or looked up too as people with magical gifts.
Sorry for so many questions.
Greetings from Australia mate 😉
I find it refreshing that someone who clearly like Welsh Viking know lots about subject he has expertise in is honest about people not knowing what this could mean . I think we should see things for what they were and not take modem day attitude
Maybe the sickle was to keep them from rising back as a vampire or draugr?
Jimmy- I can see the lack of handles is of interest - I'm not an archaeologist but how plausible would it be for the blade to survive when the handles didn't? I'm just wondering is all. Soz if it's a dumb q.
The handle of a sword usually rots away (because it's made of wood and leather in most cases), but the pommel and the crossguard of a sword were made of metal and I can't think of a good reason why they would completely disappear but not the blade.
Wot Simon says
@@TheWelshViking thankies
@@TheWelshViking thankies
@@simonr6925 thank you!
I know this is two years old at this point (as is the Intersex video). But I still wanted to reach out and say thank you, and your warmth and acceptance expressed in both videos is really, really awesome. I doubt anyone has failed to bring it up, but Kilnefelter Syndrooe is an Intersex condition recognized by Intersex rights groups around the globe. Also, as an intersex individual, these videos have meant far ore than you may realize to numerous people. Thank you, thank you, again.
That sickle is such a puzzle! Thanks for sharing your archaeology brain. (I'm glad my postcard made it safely to you as well!!)
This makes me remember a discussion about the Public Universal Friend (early American preacher who identified as neither male nor female) that has always stuck with me. It's impossible to know how they would have identified today, and would be disingenuous to assign them a modern identity. However, it would be equally disingenuous to deny someone who can draw parallels between their lives the opportunity to see themselves represented in history.
I think you've taken great care to balance those ideas. I'm NB myself and am getting into the SCA. Even though the people I've talked to have been lovely, wading through the rigid gendering of historical garb gets tiring. This find that suggests it might not have been so rigid, at least all the time, is honestly a weight off. I take comfort in this 'we don't know' and the possibility that it leaves open.
Now a question- I'm curious to know how the grave goods stack up against other finds. Have hilt-less sword blades been found in other burials? Could the hilt have been made of an organic material like wood or leather that decayed, or would we know the difference?
I had that same ponder about the sword - was it added to the grave without a hilt, or did the hilt rot away over time? This grave poses so many questions.
I don't see pommel of this sword and most of them were metal one. It high probability that this sword was never complete like the person that was buried with it. Maybe this person was some kind of seer that why was buried with sickle on upper part of torso. Sickle to indicate his/her role or to prevent from harm of other after death.
Finnish soil is acidic, so if the hilt / handle were wood or leather, they would have decayed relatively fast.
If you ever get to find out what that sickle means, I'd love to see a second part to this video.
Yes, I'm binge watching your vids :-)
Seriously. Been thinking about this grave since I watched this a few months ago. That sickle, and a sword that is useless. I'm so fascinated by it.
Binge watching these vids is fun, as made obvious by the fact that here I am again, lol, the variety is great. :)
Jimmy, I always appreciate your educated and yet humble perspective on what we do and don’t know and sadly, much as we wish we could, will never know. And yet, I somehow feel the not knowing is a bit exciting and makes it thrilling when more puzzle pieces come together!
That sickle intrigues me too! My imagination runs wild with what it could mean, but as you say, we just don’t know. If you ever find any more information about that, I’d love to hear about it! ☺️
Eyes...? Check. Lips...? Check. Hair...? Uh, oh... Okay, I'm sure you're used to making such decisions on your own, but as a UA-cam Personality with the online nickname of "Soon-to-be-Dr.-McDreamie," you should have at least sent a perfunctory poll related to your choice of hairstyle, at least to your devoted Patreons. Consequently, I will look for a Patreon Poll regarding both your sartorial and gastronomic options for the morrow. Thank you. Oh, and interesting information mentioned in the video - nice to see Editing (albeit knackered) Jimmy back in action.
I'm glad you agree that my personal grooming decisions are entirely my own and will never be anyone else's business but mine, amd any suggestion to the contrary is completely inappropriate. Diolch!
Great video, you're right about why i clicked, I was intrigued - had some trepidation as well as curiosity, but I had nothing to worry about! Fascinating, respectful, and willing to admit how much we don't know - this is how archeology should be presented imo :)
The reason as a trans man I’m getting burnt to a crisp when I die 😂 ain’t nobody digging up my skeleton and calling me a woman or female.
Though I've seen other, though obscure graves with women in Finland that are in seemingly battlefields, judging from.the battlegear. One with a man's skull around her feet I believe. It's been a while since I looked at that.
However this grave in Suontaka I've been intriqued with for a long time, especially with the unique sword, that the blade is uniquely etched with 'NMIN' if I recall and the handle and hilt design of bronze is unique, never seen before anywhere else. Since other types of swords, they are either locally made or pirated, since we have alot of Ulfbercht swords buried around. There's alot of similar gear with brooches, chain spreaders and knives, spears mostly, etc.
However Finnish mythology, old spells and women being more appreciated before Christinization from pagan beliefs. Sorcerers can also be men and woman, wisemen, witches, seers, etc. And most people practised commonly some type of 'chant singing' and so on for their daily tasks. There are mentions of Vikings in runestones, Chronicles and accounts of Finnish being known for being sorcerers and bit 'spooky', let's say. So I don't beliece there were really gender roles that were set in stone, or thought to be something that we might think of history, or even looking at nearby Viking history. Since Finnish tribes/regions, did trade with Vikings, raided them, got raided and raided with them, joined as mercenaries with them or fought, etc.
They don't have exactly the same roles as they do, even if we had similar gear and maybe a style of raiding to them.
To add to this about the sickle, there are other graves with battle gear, buried with sickles, though not particularly around their necks. This is a rough guess/theory of mine, but a sickle can represent the crescent moon and we have both a Sun and a Moon Goddess. Besides being Gods granting dresses, jewelry, etc. And also playing part in myths like 'fire fox', from what is heard through myth. Perhaps I think it's a ritualistic/symbolic meaning, from what I can guess?
Thank you for saying that _we don't know_. It's very important to be able to say "actually, we don't know" and all scientists should be able to do it. Your point about sexing skeletons is excellent as well, because we don't know how their physicality and gender expression combined.
Could the sickle have been an attempt to stop them from rising from the dead? That even seems like the most likely explanation to me. Similar things were done in an apotropaic manner in some places and times.
I agree that a shamanic role is possible too.
But, I agree, again, we don't _know_.
Bless you for taking on this subject with dignity and respect.
Also I have an idea that is pure speculation about the sickle completely based off of folklore and I have no backing for it.
Iron has been used to banish fairy magic...could the people of the time thought that this person was under an enchantment of some sort and the iron would bind the enchantment to the life the person lost? And in that aspect not follow the person to the afterlife?
We don't have any evidence that the aesir religion had that as a belief, but it's as valid as any conjectural theory at this point!
Very interesting, I am struck by both the sickle and sword being handleless.
Fascinating! Thank you, Jimmy! I enjoy hearing about this with your archaeological expertise background.
I haven’t finished watching the video but I’ll have to stop and comment that as far as I know, Finnish women never wore apron dresses. They wore peploses instead, a square cloth that was wrapped under one arm and fastened at the shoulders with bronze brooches. And I think that Finns were not really considered Vikings. Finns did trade with Birka and other Vikings but there are lots of differences in culture, language, religion and dress. Not that it isn’t possible that some Finns did join Vikings on their adventures. Also, your pronounciation of Finnish names is pretty good!
Never is a very strong word, we cannot make assertions like that when we have some evidence that garments like that were found in Finland. Thank you though! I appreciate it!
I appreciate the way you always keep things real Jimmy the Welsh Viking. Keep up the good work mate!
In some places, a sickle blade across the neck was one of several methods used to stop a suspected vampire/undead from rising later (which we know because some of the groups who practiced it in Eastern Europe are still at it in recent times). So that's a possibility but not something I've heard of the Norse doing, like, ever.
Also, as a nonbinary person, I wanted to say thank you for giving such a clear explanation of what identifying as nonbinary means in the video.
Like so many things in history, the more questions we answer, the more questions we come up with. I love when history proves that a lot of these genetic & other things people have today, didn't just pop up in modern times. But it really is curious what the sickle is doing there. I would really love for that to get figured out, but know it may not happen in my lifetime if ever. By the way, the haircut looks quite dapper. :)
(Some variably relevant info about Finland (the place of the find) & Finnish iron age culture. A correction. And ramblings about sex and gender: )
I believe the term "non-binary" is used because the person had a sword but female clothes. But women have also been buried with swords, so the person may have well been a transwoman (in modern terms). But then again the persons biological sex isn't really a 100% a male (as XY is male, XX female). Technically a person with Kleinfelter syndrome is intersex. Most people with kleinfelter grow to identify as males (gender), some identify as women, and some as something else like for instance non-binary.
That's actually the other possibility. The "non-binary" term used may actually be referring to their sex more than gender. As in literally there are more than 2 sexes biologically speaking (even though it is customary to speak of kleinfelter _males_ ) - as in not non-binary as an identity/gender but as meaning not-fitting-the-2-option-categorisation-of-sex (some may say intersex, some not). The problem kind of is that dividing people into males and females is waaaay too much a simplification. What defines a persons sex is much more complicated than people tend to think - even just the physical side of it. There is more to it than just whether you are Xx or Xy (especially as you can have several other combinations of those like XXY). There can also be a "blip" in some gene that fails to switch the trigger that makes the fetus start to develope into a female or male, which can cause a XY male appear physically like an absolutely ordinary woman for instance. There may be a hormonal blip that does something similar. Not to even mention the multitudes of gemder identities besides the physical complexity of sex.
It may or may not be relevant that in Finnish language we don't have separate words for gender and sex (it's often handled by adding "identity" when meaning "gender").
The name Suontaka is wrong. There's been some misunderstanding because of Finnish language being so weird. It's *Suontaa* (literally beyond bog 😆). It's not a coastal place but not very far inland either.
Finnish iron age people are not considered vikings. There is no proof that people from Finland would have ever been doing "vikinging". Very likely some have joined actual vikings, but 🤷♀️
They did do business here, there were harbours/trading towns (don't know the correct term in english) they came to (especially fur/animal skin was traded out) and maybe kidnapped people for slaves. People from Sweden have settled on the coastline - but no proof of them being the travelling "viking" kind.
Neither can the religious practices or culture overall be called Norse or "viking". There certainly is massive Scandinavian influence, overlapping and similarity, but it's not the same. The base of Finnish religious culture was shamanistic with significant influence from Swedish, Slavic and maaybe germanic (this might be later) culture. At this time the Sami people also still lived on a wider area (nowadays in Lapland). And while Finns are mixed with Sami and Scandinavians, at that time the eastern basically Asian heritage has been stronger (for reference maybe Karelian culture).
I'll add that our language isn't related to the germanic languages either (like Swedish and English and not to Russian either) - it's not even an indoeuropean language (sans plentiful of loan words of course).
Thank you for including the articles! Am also wondering about both blades and interested in their analysis. Would dearly love to find that there was some indication of use on the blades that would help with the interpretation - wear patterns, residue, etc - though they look like most of the surface may be too damaged by their time in the ground. Also, really appreciate the sexed vs gendered section.
A horrible comment (please delete)
Thank you for another fascinating and thoughtful video; the Empathic Welsh Viking.
Is there any evidence of Finns at the time having fears about particular people rising from the dead, and rituals to stop that happening? Because the sickle on the neck really sounds like such a ritual.
That sickle blade is smaller than I would have thought. I think it's clearly not a grain cutting sickle so you saying ritual branch cutter makes good logical sense.
About 10 years ago I helped excavate a post medieval cemetery (roughly 700 years later, I know) with the Slavia Foundation. In that area several sets of remains have been found with sicles across the throat allegedly to keep them from rising from the dead (the media like to throw around the term vampire, but my understanding is that zombie is a better description).
Not completely. The Slavic vampire (striga, strygoń, specter) is a creature completely different from the 19th-century Count Dracula (although he was the prototype for this count). It's also not a mindless creature that only craves human meat like a zombie from "The Walking Dead".
He craves human life force, soul, envy people earthly life. During the day he sleeps in the grave, at night he gets out of it, for example through a special hole. Above all, he knows how to choose his victims. Most often, he starts with members of his own family, then neighbors, residents of his village, etc. Sometimes he can put victims to sleep, make them lethargic, suffocate. Get up from the gorbu every night or only on a moonless night or only at full moon or on specific days of the week.
There are many ways to become a vampire. It could not have been a woman who died in childbirth or a child who died shortly after birth. In Slavic culture, this topic is incredibly rich, as is the theme of ghosts and demons. These areas often overlap.
Thank you for sharing!
Thank you again for how you handle topics with humility and compassion. It makes a big difference getting to learn about history through the lense of someone who is genuinely trying to portray things as honestly as possible. It's really refreshing and comforting. As an extremely queer person it's nice to be able to learn about history and feel like people like me belong and are acknowledged as part of that history.
I try to, and thank you very much for the positive and kind words!
I think there is a difference between saying "this person is nonbinary" and "this ancient culture did not think of gender in the same binary terms we do today" and trying to understand what terms they understood gender in generally can be a cool pursuit
Thank you for this!
I don't want to be buried (I'd rather be cremated) but if I was... I'd hope a far-future archaeologist/historian like you would be just as clearly intrigued and confused by my gender-diverse burial/body/hormones/genetics. I think you're right on. We don't know, we can't know, but this person sounds super interesting anyway. And whatever may have been done to set up the burial post-mortem, I think of all the trans people whose bodies go back to unaccepting birth families and are buried as something very different from the genders they actually lived. I hope that wasn't the case with this burial, I hope they were buried as exactly who they were and wanted to be, but we can't know. Yet again, reality is far more interesting than the stories we tell about how the world is constructed.
I watched this video a month late but thanks yet again for the explanation Jimmy!
(Also, swell hair and swell sweater 😏😎👌)
Weren't medieval vampires buried with sickles around their neck, to prevent them from rising again?
Being ancient, I seem to dimly remember reading an article in the early 1970s, that explained the sickle blade. It was all Golden Bough/New Age gathering mistletoe at midnight. About the same time that Marija Gimbutas' book was translate into English and readily available in the US and New Age goddess cults were breaking out like a rash among feminists. P. S. I was one.
NOTE NOTE NOTE!
A major point here that needs clarification is that Moilanen et al has been *misrepresented* in the media, as assigning non-binary status to the individual in this grave, which they have *not* done (note I used the quote that says "may").
As Ulla Moilanen specifically states in this very comments section:
"The press has been misrepresenting the research and many seem to think that we unquestionably link the Klinefelter's to a non-binary self-identity, although that's not what we do. Quote from the paper: "Biogical sex variations have several contributing factors, and all chromosomal sexes may identify themselves as male, female, or anything outside the binary. Regardless of karyotype or anatomical appearance, the Suontaka individual too could have identified themself anywhere in the gender spectrum (see Moen, 2019)." We are also saying that gender identities may not have been personal choices like today, but shaped by society in complex ways. What we mean by non-binary is that it seems that this person was not considered male or female the way we usually understand the division...
The inhabitants of Late Iron Age / EM Finland are not usually called vikings, and apron dresses were not used in Finland at the time. The feminine dress consisted of an underdress and a folded peplos over it.)"
I accept all aspects of this comment, which I think comes out in the video, but I would like to apologise to the authors of the paper if it appears I'm siding with the press on this. I hope it's clear from the last 6 minutes of the video, but I am categorically *not* doing that.
Be cool and remember: only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Please pin this comment (your, not mine) before it gets buried within the comments section.
I would note that while we may have more freedom in gender expression in some places at this time than may have existed in other places and times, gender, and individual choices about gender, are still shaped by culture in complex ways. We never make purely free choices; we choose from what's available to us based on social costs and benefits.
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes” is an absolute, so does that mean Jimmy is a Sith? 🤔
😜
@@lordofuzkulak8308 Suspicion is the way of the Dark Side ;)
Or George Lucas is as shite at scriptwriting as Alec Guinness said... XD
If I remember correctly, of all the articles I have seen only the Guardian quoted her correctly.
Theory that amuses me: We’re keeping your sword hilt to remember you by, being a magic person you’re enchanting the sword to do it’s work rather than wielding it. And the sicle… well, uh we’re sorry, but you’re frighteningly powerful and we’d like you to stay in your grave. K? Thanks.
I know of at least one story in which an iron implement has been used to try to keep a dead person from rising
The sicle was way later still a thing with the fear of undead people rise from the graves all over europe.
I thought of something a bit similar as well.
History continues to be as ever far more interesting and complex than some would have us believe.
if people think history is boring they have not look farther than primary school history
As a nonbinary person, it's reassuring to hear that archaeologists don't gender skeletons or try to put modern interpretations of gender onto ancient cultures (any more). I've been reading a little about the skeleton, and have been inclined towards interpreting 'non-binary' as the broadest possible umbrella of 'not taking a traditional male or female gender role', but I appreciate other interpretations exist and that, at the end of the day, it's still assuming the gender of someone who isn't around to correct us.
Now I want to know more about meaning for the inclusion and placement of the sickle, and just have to accept "we don't know" for an answer.
Caveat: This is relatively new. My parent's archeology and anthropology college professors and their colleagues did not make the current distinction between gendering and sexing skeletons done now. There is a "generational" difference here and I can easily see certain of the older people in these fields refusing the distinction. And they may still be active in teaching, research, and publishing. "Buyer beware" and all that.
Becoming comfortable with the uncomfortable notion that something cannot be known is a much-needed skill.
🤪 I agree, but it also feels like something that goes against the whole grain of historical human thought!! We're such pattern-creating and pattern-seeking beings; we fear chaos and the unexplained; we've always made up explanations (gods, magic, science, whatever) to try and correlate the unfamiliar with the already-known... To bravely state "we don't know, and we're okay with that" feels like a really huge step! 😯
As an anthropologist, thank you for saying 'we don't know'. It irritates the normies, who like things in black and white, but too bad. Well done!
'We do not gender skeletons, we sex them', I remember being told the same thing in Liverpool uni archeology 101 and human osteoarchaeology. It was a great thing to learn, splitting biology from culture was a fun topic, I really enjoyed the difference between aging skeletons as adults and seeing what the culture saw as an adult
Sex and gender are both constructs and saying other wise is transphobic
@@KN-cool HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
@nathanh1582 okay snowflake I know the truth can be scary for you so I will let you live in your fear and ignorance. Try not to get too emotional
lol@@KN-cool
Is the urban myth in fact true? Do negative, hostile comments actually have a greater impact of positive nature on your statistical profile? If they do, out of affection and admiration, I am willing to say dreadful things. :) (P.S. I always factor in to burial examination the fact that one is buried by other people who may have made decisions that would not have pleased the star of that particular show. Most of my life has been played out in the western half of Texas. Folks do all kinds of things at a burying that might not be easy to figure out if you don't happen to live around here.)
The typical syndrome associated with male genotype that compares to Turner Syndrome is actually Noonan syndrome, although the genetic mutations aren't the same. My daughter has Classic variant Turners. While this isn't necessarily related to Klinefelter's Syndrome I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about Turners. Experts now are debating whether to consider TS as an intersex diagnosis.
Fascinating, thank you
What a lovely attitude to have in archeology towards gender, and to teach it so early on shows how important it is to the field. How totally awesome!
As both a trans woman and an intersex person (with an archaeologist for a mother), I'm going to have an absolute ball when my skeleton confuses the hell out of future archaeologists.
Put a bunch of trans flag pins in there to fuck with then tenfold (Let the "what does this symbol mean? Could it be a ritual of some kind? Why the three colours? W H A T I S T H I S" ensue)
You seriously need a funeral plan which specifies what you will be buried with. The scope is endless.
@@dees3179 And that plan needs to optimize the chances of her skeleton surviving as much as humanly possible, this will be fun
@@JBguitar-cj8pc none of that here lads
@@LordZeebee good soil conditions will be important for both the body and artifacts
Thank you SO MUCH for your open-minded dissection of the grave. I do a lot of public outreach about intersex, nonbinary, and trans people throughout history and two of my biggest repeats are 'ideas/trappings of gender change throughout time/place' and 'intersex people/individuals with diverse sexual development are NOT NEW'. That said, we (and me) shouldn't be so hungry for solid representation that we attribute identities to folks long dead.
.... I will fight people over trans ancestor Dr. James Barry tho.
ALSO REALLY CURIOUS ABOUT THE SICKLE BLADE... THAT'S UH... INTERESTING
Also this past June there was an online lecture given by some neat academic folks on trans people in the Roman Empire and galli were a big ole bullet point.
Very much agreeing with your repeats! You can't identify as non-binary if the concept doesn't exist in your culture, but the concept doesn't have to exist for nb _people_ to exist. And Dr. James Barry was a legend! Have you read the bio "Scanty Particulars" by Rachel Holmes? I'm super-wary about labelling dead people too, but personally I'll fight people over emperor Elagabalus, who literally offered loads of cash to any surgeon who'd do gender reassignment surgery (I'm sure you know that tho!)
I'm nonbinary myself, and I'd like to thank you for handling the topic with sensitivity.
I was really curious about the scythe blade too, having some background in mythology, it reminds me of grain god harvest myths, but I've no idea where to go from there. I hope there is a positive reason for the scythe blade instead of a, we lay you to rest with honor, but don't come back, sort of thing. The possibilities are wide, but more evidence is needed.
Knowing that this person had Klinefelter syndrome makes the grave even more curious. Klinefelter syndrome males can be tetracromats, because of their unique genetics. Could our Klinefelter person have been assigned a role in life because of color vision similar to 12% of the female population?
I just looked up tetracromacy. Woah.
I'm a tetrachromate.
Or Freyja, goddess of grain and harvests... She also took half the dead when her representatives went to war...
THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! I think the best part was basically saying "we will not impose a gender identity on this human." and that is beautiful.
I am also now really REALLY curious about the sickle. Like that is going to be chasing itself around my brain now.
My thoughts directly want to go to: Iron = Magical in Scandinavian folklore since as far back as we have written sources that tells anything about it. The sicle could be because this person could have been assigned to be somewhere between male and female and that they therefore could have been assumed to have Great Powers from the Gods etc etc... and therefore they needed to be buried with iron around their throat to not be able to get out of the grave and be a "corpse ghost" as we call it up here in Sweden, the earliest stories about ghosts seem to be that the body kinda was still there, more like zombies than our modern idea of a transparent soul ghost. Anyway...
To make this wall of text short: Yes, that COULD be it. But no. We Do Not Know. I really wish it could be like that, it would be so cool. But it can just as well be, this human is strange and we don't get it and this poor soul had a horrible life and was finally buried with some respect for some unknown reason. We Do Not Know. So thank you for repeating this through the whole video. Because it is so important. We Do Not Know.
Thank you. That was all for me.
*get's of my soap box*
One story that immediately sprung to mind when reading your comment was one involving a Myling (a baby buried/abandoned without a christening) that had been buried with iron scissors on top of it under the floor, and during a party demands to be let up to join in the dance.
And yeah, iron seems to be a good go-to protection from all different kinds of väsen (supernatural entities)
@@scouttyra Yes, that is one of many versions of how to use iron as protection. Mylingar is a good example of this. Iron was also good to use as a protection from other väsen, especially if it had a sharp edge, like a knife or a scythe or even sharp edges on shovels. We do not know much about why this was or when it started, but it is mentioned or heavily implied in a lot of old texts such as the Scandinavian medieval ballads and poems and also in both of the Eddas. And I think this is not something just for the North, I think this might be the case in a lot of Indo-Europeen folkmagic tradition. Might even appear in other places too. But there I again have to say: I don't know. Because I am not any kind of expert in anything byt Scandinavian folklore. I really should read up on German and Brittish folklore a bit better. :)
And to go back to this case mentioned in this video. This might be a protection from the body to rise again, but it might also be a protection for the body so that supernatural beings would not disturb it. This might also be everything in between and out of the box. It's really fascinating to think around. Wonder if there's been more of these cases of a sicle across the throat in other burials? *goes to dive head deep into books*
Wasn't that a thing later in eastern Europe to keep particular people from 'getting up'.
@@jamesfisher9594 Very possible it was. I vaguely remember something about Romanian vampires and putting steel or iron on their bodies to stop them from getting out of the graves. That iron is considered something magical is for me not so strange though. A super hard material that you make soft and pliable with fire to then make hard and sharp again. Anyone who have seen a good smith working knows that there's something magic about it. ;)
But if you're from Sweden you should know that Finns are not Swedish. What has been done in Sweden isn't necessarily done in Finland because we are different people.
There's a similar burial (Tortoise Brooches and a Sword, noone has done any genetics testing as far as I know) from Santon Downham. Because it was excavated in the late 1800s the assumption was that it was a double burial (without two skeletons). I personally think this probably belongs to the growing number of suspected female or female-presenting people buried with weapons.
There's also a very fun excavation on the isles of Scilly recently where a grave had a sword and a 'mirror' which is a Celtic item usually denoting a female burial. The lead archaeologist devotes a paragraph to smacking down the idea that it is a double burial.
I've now got an image in my head of a very tired Editing Jimmy dancing around to manic jazz music. Thanks for that image and a very interesting video.
You’re very good at explaining what you know and even what you don’t really know. You’re also quite good at sticking to the facts as they are rather than interjecting your opinions. Thank you. It helps me better understand those who don’t fit the norm (“norm” meaning the majority rather than “normal” meaning what “ought to be”.)
Would the small scythe perhaps be a symbol for a brewer ? (Versus a standing scythe which would be for wheat?!)
If I remember correctly, "women" were often brewers in many cultures.....
Same with plenty of gathering work
When I was a kid, I remember watching a tv show with a "psychic" who claimed to be able to "read the energy" of any object and know every detail about whoever had handled the object. Of course I don't believe in that, but ugh!, every time I see a story like this or watch Time Team on youtube, I wish an archeologist actually DID have that superpower!
It always strikes me that what is in a grave is more telling of what everyone else thought than the person themselves. How many out trans people today are buried under dead names in clothes they never wore? Whoever buried this person chose to put them in traditionally female clothing. I wonder if the person in the grave had a say in it.
Yes, I was thinking that, too. We can't know which way it went.
I'm really glad the (swedish) news article I read this from took a position very close to your points and was very good with mentioning the y'know... guesswork angle of the latter statements of what it could have possibly meant
The only truth is that skeleton is likely to have been intersex and they were buried with both a sword and brooches and that the second sword was probably added later.
Also wow. Sickle blade necklace sounds epic (but also like a threat... a really massive threat). A blade to the neck? Edge up to the artery
? Idk dude...
Clickbait titles are really good at what they do but for readers to then believe that the title is the truth of the content is just... no. Please update your reading comprehension if you find yourself valuing articles by their almost mandatory clickbait titles these days.
I absolutely adore the fact that you do nuance. There's not enough nuance and not enough science (real science) around that reaches to people. And as a cis person I am still woefully unaware of some things and issues and videos like this just really open up my perspective and perception of the world. There are few things I enjoy more. So thank you for that.
Having been found in finland and pretty inland too, if the scythe held religious significance (outside of being a tool they would have used in life) it was probably related to finnish paganism in some way. Interesting thing about finnish folk religion is that gender had a role in the core religious beliefs. The religion was very dualistic; the north, evergreens, the moon, left handedness, death, magic/spirits, winter and women were on one side of the dualism coin ("alinen") where as the south, birch trees, the sun, right handedness, life, summer and men were associated with the world of the living and ylinen.
Because of this women were believed to be more in tune with the spirit world which also makes me wonder what role people with differing gender identities or biological differences would play.
Very interesting find though and i hope we find out more about this
I’ve actually been curious about how non binary people (who have always existed & are suggested in multiple contemporary sources) would have been treated in a culture such as this which DID have strict gender distinctions.
Burial goods are always complicated. A woman who never touched a blade in life could be buried with her husband’s sword. Maybe he died in battle & the body wasn’t recovered so it was returned to her. Maybe like in most cultures, women were prepared to fight at home if the men were away. That doesn’t equate to the modern fantasy of the shield maiden.
We just can’t know what grave goods mean unless text is included or there is something standardized. It’s ok to not know. We might someday, but it needs to be left open until we have the means to really understand it.
Great point! Could have been intersex, non binary, or transgender, or just inherited it/given to them by a man close to them, like a father or husband. Or it really could have belonged to them to defend the home. We can speculate, which is kinda fun!
The "standard" is swords with men and sewing utensils with women. Or rather, that's the standard that archeologists have found. But as you say, exceptions could happen for a number of different reasons that we just aren't privy to.
I wonder how strict gender distinctions actually were in Norse society. There's evidence the worshippers of Odin were unimpressed with men who practised 'seidr' (adopting a female role to practice magic... I think?) - but there's also evidence that Odin wasn't always the most important god in the Norse pantheon (cf. many videos by Jackson Crawford) so gender roles may not have always been so strict - and there may have been subcultures that ran alongside the viking one where NB and trans might have been fully accepted.
@@Sigart i like that jimmy mentions a weaving sword, they did use weaving swords, could they be metal dont know, but weaving ones did not seem to have guards
@@paulaunger3061 You'd be surprised how much different societal and roles were different in those societies. Females could be warriors, leaders, own land, and divorce. The Celts had similar roles.
What people assume as gender rules mostly comes from Christiandom and ancient Greek/Roman ideas.
There has been several amazing women warriors found.
This being said, it's likely they questioned gender and roles or identified as neither or both. Or chose their own pathway. As he said, it's difficult to tell.
I wish the people who wrote these articles would do their research
Random question that idk if anyone has an answer to this, but has there been any Strontium Isotope analysis done on the bones? Just cuz I’m curious if the person was local to the area or came from elsewhere
Probably they had to. Otherwise, how would they know for sure that this person came from the Northeast?
@@CourtneySchwartz well… probably in that case
So glad you covered this Jimmy! As a registered nurse and educator, I often discuss the differences between sex and gender in my classes. People are always surprised by the frequency of genetic conditions that fall outside the XX and XY binary.
Think how much gendered clothing, makeup and other non-traditional and counter culture movements have changed gender roles just in the last 40 years. Trying to extrapolate gender identity from a burial site that's 1000 years old is impossible. Looks like you had some smart professors!😉
I've always said, a puzzled scientist is a happy scientist. "We don't know" seems to drive the rest of us to invent stories (and gods) to explain it.
*Where* are the skull, spine, and pelvis? It's weird the biggest bones in the body are missing; time, tomb raiders, ghost dogs, ...? And making stuff up in my head; could the sword without furniture be about the person being from a high status family, but this person never went viking? (Yes, I know; possibly, possibly not.)
Great vid, thanks. Also, love the new 'do.
Finnish soil is notoriously bad at preserving bones, mainly due to the acidity.
Jimmie, you have my entire nonbinary heart. It is little, and broken, but still good. Thank you. 🖤💜🤍💛
It's freakin amazing that we can determine something like this about a person who lived a thousand years ago. I have a relative with klinefelter's, how cool to have evidence of a person with the same condition so long in the past. It had not crossed my mind how his life could have panned out in a different era or locale.
As serious a subject as this is and as well done as the video is (including the editorial notes clarifying some things you were struggling with a bit) I still cannot resist pointing this out:
9:26 "...we *sex* skeletons, and we often get it wrong." is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've heard all week. Out of context it sounds like a desperate plea to experienced necrophiles to show you what you're doing wrong. :)
But good job on clarifying beyond the daft media coverage of this, and for understanding the difference between sex and gender better than the original reporters did.
13:52 "hahaha everything's ritual" needs to be a material culture reaction gif ASAP
Yes! Smarter people than I! Hop to it!
I love that you have no problem with saying "We don't know", it is so refreshing. Also your hair looks good!
Thanks! It's completely essential to be able to admit ignorance. The word for a researcher who can't do that is "liar"! :P
However they identified, their gender was likely unusual. As someone whose gender is also unusual, I don't get to see people like me in history very often. I feel special kinship with them for this and it's delightful to know they existed. Thank you for the info.
Some Englishman: "Oy! Are'ye a lad or a lassie?!"
NB-Viking: "You've got my axe in your belly right now. Why do you even care?"
😂
only that's Scottish not English lol. an Englishperson would say "Hallo, that's odd, are you a man or a woman?"
Love the new haircut Jimmy. Looks great. Great video with lots of interesting facts. Keep up the good work.
Most of the Medieval history channels on UA-cam are decidedly conservative and have little if any sympathy for the LGBTQ+ community, which is fine. I want to hear different opinions. And I appreciate that regardless of politics, all channels are devoted to historical accuracy. It's just there are, from what I've discovered, not many medieval history channels that are open to what we now refer to as LGBTQ+ people in history, or for that matter supportive of LGBTQ+ people and modern feminism at all. So thank you for being an oasis in this community.
It's so frustrating that we don't know and have such tiny fragments to work with. At the same time, it's amazing how much those tiny fragments can tell us. Imagine what we'll be able to know in another fifty years!
I just wish more academics had the combination of humility and self-assurance that allows them to state: we.just.don‘t.know. In fact, politicians would benefit from taking that to heart too.
Lovely video as always, perfectly balanced between educational and entertaining.
BTW I‘m going to Norway for the first time this weekend, really looking forward to visiting the Viking ship museum. We‘ll also be close to Gudvangen and were thinking of going to the Viking Valley site - have you ever been, if so, what did you think? The website seems to be pushing the line of ‘we‘re not actors in costumes, we‘re real Vikings living our best Viking lives‘ which seems to make an interesting distinction between reenactors who are passionate about their era and people who are ‘just’ doing living history as a paid job.
I think everybody would profite from a little bit "we.don't.know."
Because we don't know.
Youre probably my fav small history channel. youre very serious an charismatic.