"We just don't know" = the most important sentence any researcher must learn to be comfortable with, in archeology, in history, in humanities, in stem, in the medical field... Sometimes we don't have all of the answers. and it's important to be able to put your hand up and say we do not know, we don't have a way to find out. We can guess, we can make theories, but some things cannot be confirmed.
@@Visibletoallusers12 Same thing as discussions I just had on deciding who was "good" or "bad" about people we know a little about, but not what was gossip and slander, propaganda, and recent romantic novels, where anyone is free to speculate, but we still do not know.
No reason to leave some of the "hard" sciences out of that. Don't let the physicists fool you, an awful lot of their work is running on unproven hypotheses based on limited observations, especially when you get into astrophysics. Educated speculation as a basis for research is about the best we can do a lot of the time in many fields. Be nice if the real anti-science types would stop acting like that little revelation was some kind of "gotcha" moment that justifies chucking out all of human learning, though.
@@richmcgee434 This!! 🙄 There seem to be some really pervasive popular beliefs that a) Scientific hypotheses can never be updated to reflect new data, b) If you do update your theory, the whole thing was invalid from the start, c) Saying "we don't know yet" is some kind of indictment of the whole scientific method, and d) Scientific "theory" means "we're just making stuff up", not "here is the best potential hypothesis we can state based on current data & research". This doesn't seem to just be a problem amongst people who're actively anti-science, but frankly amongst most of us as general population who don't necessarily understand how scientific research & theory works...? It's been particularly observable in people's responses to pandemic-related medical research + recommendations. I'd love to see more active primary & secondary level education re the basics of the scientific method, logical fallacies, and oratorical techniques? Think it'd really help future generations develop much better critical thinking...
NOTE NOTE NOTE! A major point here that needs clarification is that Moilanen et al has been *misrepresented* in the media, as assigning non-binary status to the individual in this grave, which they have *not* done (note I used the quote that says "may"). As Ulla Moilanen specifically states in this very comments section: "The press has been misrepresenting the research and many seem to think that we unquestionably link the Klinefelter's to a non-binary self-identity, although that's not what we do. Quote from the paper: "Biogical sex variations have several contributing factors, and all chromosomal sexes may identify themselves as male, female, or anything outside the binary. Regardless of karyotype or anatomical appearance, the Suontaka individual too could have identified themself anywhere in the gender spectrum (see Moen, 2019)." We are also saying that gender identities may not have been personal choices like today, but shaped by society in complex ways. What we mean by non-binary is that it seems that this person was not considered male or female the way we usually understand the division... The inhabitants of Late Iron Age / EM Finland are not usually called vikings, and apron dresses were not used in Finland at the time. The feminine dress consisted of an underdress and a folded peplos over it.)" I accept all aspects of this comment, which I think comes out in the video, but I would like to apologise to the authors of the paper if it appears I'm siding with the press on this. I hope it's clear from the last 6 minutes of the video, but I am categorically *not* doing that. Be cool and remember: only a Sith deals in absolutes.
I would note that while we may have more freedom in gender expression in some places at this time than may have existed in other places and times, gender, and individual choices about gender, are still shaped by culture in complex ways. We never make purely free choices; we choose from what's available to us based on social costs and benefits.
Thank you for this. As somebody who’s NB, it’s extremely reassuring when somebody is critical of branding this grave as non binary. An AMAB wearing ‘womens clothing’ doesn’t inherently mean they were on the trans spectrum in any way, and a lot of people don’t seem to think about that. Intersex people, or people with Klinefelter can choose for themselves and dress how they feel, and we can’t do that to them to gender them post-mortem. So thank you.
Further, I am unaware of any data that indicates people with Klinefelter Syndrome are any more likely to be identify as non-binary than someone without the condition. The vast majority still identify as male. And so, it would be a hugely presumptuous of the scientific community, not to mention disrespectful - to the person, people with Klinefelter Syndrome, and the non-binary community - to label or presume the person as non-binary on the basis of their genetic makeup.
@@evilwelshman Absolutely. A genetic condition has no power over identity and exists exclusively. Also, identity and expression also live exclusively to one another, so who are we as people in the 21st Century to understand this grave’s identity just from a few articles of clothing? We could be interpreting it entirely wrong, so this grave being branded as non-binary isn’t the wisest move.
Generally speaking, and I'm coming very much from an a) very modern perspective and b) that of a person with a background in the social sciences / a radical empiricist here: I think it's a rather sensible operating assumption to presume that this whole "gender identity" situation is, in a nutshell, something very 21st century in general. This is not to say that identities aren't valid - just that we have to understand historical people as people of their time. And that, just as a 16th century equivalent of myself arguably wouldn't have seen herself within a theoretical framework of systematic misogyny, a Viking arguably wouldn't have seen themselves as "non-binary". Neither of these mean that women / enbies weren't deserving of respect in their times - merely that how we frame any of these and how individuals would have regarded themselves opposite society: we either have documentary evidence for, or we'd be safer, academically speaking, not making assumptions that super-impose our modern notions upon people of ages past. In that sense: fully on board with "we don't gender - we sex - skeletons".
Klinefelter is always male. Generally speaking, if you have a Y chromosome you're a male. Klinefelter is XXY. There are also many men out there who don't even realise they have Klinfelter other than that they might have realised that they are less developed than other males. Same with Turner syndrome - always a female just with one X instead of two. It's not right to put either as intersex conditions even though some intersex activists and lobbyists of do it to massively inflate their numbers. They are in the categories of their own condition.
🤪 I agree, but it also feels like something that goes against the whole grain of historical human thought!! We're such pattern-creating and pattern-seeking beings; we fear chaos and the unexplained; we've always made up explanations (gods, magic, science, whatever) to try and correlate the unfamiliar with the already-known... To bravely state "we don't know, and we're okay with that" feels like a really huge step! 😯
As a nonbinary person, it's reassuring to hear that archaeologists don't gender skeletons or try to put modern interpretations of gender onto ancient cultures (any more). I've been reading a little about the skeleton, and have been inclined towards interpreting 'non-binary' as the broadest possible umbrella of 'not taking a traditional male or female gender role', but I appreciate other interpretations exist and that, at the end of the day, it's still assuming the gender of someone who isn't around to correct us. Now I want to know more about meaning for the inclusion and placement of the sickle, and just have to accept "we don't know" for an answer.
Caveat: This is relatively new. My parent's archeology and anthropology college professors and their colleagues did not make the current distinction between gendering and sexing skeletons done now. There is a "generational" difference here and I can easily see certain of the older people in these fields refusing the distinction. And they may still be active in teaching, research, and publishing. "Buyer beware" and all that.
Theory that amuses me: We’re keeping your sword hilt to remember you by, being a magic person you’re enchanting the sword to do it’s work rather than wielding it. And the sicle… well, uh we’re sorry, but you’re frighteningly powerful and we’d like you to stay in your grave. K? Thanks.
I want to remind people that Finland, while a neighbor to Scandinavia, did have a very different mythology and culture. So what applies to Scandinavian mythology and beliefs, might not and probably does not apply to this grave. Finns did not go on vikings and were not vikings for example. They did raid (just like everyone did at that time), but not in the same manner. I study Finnish prehistory (mostly iron age/viking age) and mythology and their ancient beliefs.
I have a huge interest in this if you have any resources you could share with me - Finnish beliefs have been very patchy to study and I would love to fill the gaps in my knowledge.
@@robbaldwin2402 we have a very large collection of Finnish folklore in Finnish National Archive and I think it's digitalised and at least some of it is translated.
@@dangerousalphabets5267 I can read slowly in Finnish, so it's not a disaster if it's not all translated, but I will delve into it. I visited them once, but there was an overwhelming number of texts!
@@robbaldwin2402 If you can visit and you are interested in something specific you can inform them before you come and they will find everything on that subject for you.
Observation with caveats. (As an Intersex person of Middle Eastern Descent.) We have information from various sources, including the Talmud, of people with Klinefelter type presentation being an identifiable class of persons. (Taller men who do not grow facial hair and have small external genitalia.) With the caveat that Greek/Aramaic speakers around the Western Mediterrean in late antiquity are unlikely to have any cultural commonalities with Nordic communities around 1000 BCE; it is plausible that Klinefelter presentation MIGHT have constituted a recognized category in that community as well. I know just enough (which is not enough) about Nordic culture to know the existence of Seidhr men. I don't know whether men could be born into that identity or whether it was associated with natural beardlessness. As you said, it's impossible to know whether any individual in a grave fits into a social category. I think it's interesting in its own right whether those social categories exist or not. (One factoid that I found interesting from the Talmud - were not allowed to be enslaved.)
'We do not gender skeletons, we sex them', I remember being told the same thing in Liverpool uni archeology 101 and human osteoarchaeology. It was a great thing to learn, splitting biology from culture was a fun topic, I really enjoyed the difference between aging skeletons as adults and seeing what the culture saw as an adult
Above all, the most important thing to remember about genes and chromosomes is: no matter how complicated you think genetics is, it is more complicated than that. And that's not even getting into the relationship between genotype (what specific genes a person or other creature has) and phenotype (the result of how all those genes have interacted and been expressed in a live organism), which is, unbelievably, even more complicated.
The typical syndrome associated with male genotype that compares to Turner Syndrome is actually Noonan syndrome, although the genetic mutations aren't the same. My daughter has Classic variant Turners. While this isn't necessarily related to Klinefelter's Syndrome I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about Turners. Experts now are debating whether to consider TS as an intersex diagnosis.
As both a trans woman and an intersex person (with an archaeologist for a mother), I'm going to have an absolute ball when my skeleton confuses the hell out of future archaeologists.
Put a bunch of trans flag pins in there to fuck with then tenfold (Let the "what does this symbol mean? Could it be a ritual of some kind? Why the three colours? W H A T I S T H I S" ensue)
I do think that "nonbinary" isnt the worst word to use in the headlines for the topic because it's talking about the possibility that the person wasn't a man or woman in their life, whether it was personal or not, and that... can be connected to their intersex reality (see: alyonit/tumtum/saris/etc) but I also really think the article could've been titled better BECAUSE it's an intersex individual and the potential that they're nonbinary seems almost a footnote to the actual discovery. Ironically this is the opposite issue to several old Joan D'Arc documentaries where they called her presentation "intersex" when androgynous or nonbinary would've been more accurate so it's interesting to see how perisex cis society has shifted its inaccuracy in like... ten years.
Considering that many magic-workers seem to have been female, this person may have been seen as partaking of both and honored in this way. The fact that the grave goods were not especially 'rich' may only speak to what was available to those who did the burial. The curved blade? My wild-assed conjecture is that it might have meant "Even if you're still annoyed at us, please stay in your grave, and don't haunt us." I'm very interested in the later, second sword..maybe an upgrade? (Also, cute haircut.)
I like your idea about the sickle. Like they viewed this person as magical (a Seiðr practitioner?) and thought they might rise from the dead. The sickle could have been placed to stop them getting back up.
The idea kinda reminds me of "vampire graves" where the corpse would be re-arranged or have stakes or heavy items put on it to prevent the person rising up, I think they've been found in a lot of medieval Christian Europe and even in colonial America. Perhaps it could be a similar thing?
@@benjalucian1515 any sword whether in usable condition or not was an expensive item. The lack of hilt is a minor thing compared to the making of a sword. A magic worker might chose not to have valuable metal items. They may have been buried with much expensive fabrics and furs but that didn't survive.
@@benjalucian1515 and apparently the furs survived along with indications of feathers. You don't strip off a hilt in order to "dishonor " the person. Unless the hilt is heavily ornamented with precious stones, the blade costs more, you would destroy the blade or simply not bury the sword with them. This is an honourable burial of someone who was respected.
@@benjalucian1515 we do know about viking burials and what a sword meant. I don't know why you are being such a bigot to insist that a sword missing part of a hilt is contempt. Nothing in the burial suggests that except your hangups.
Thank you SO MUCH for your open-minded dissection of the grave. I do a lot of public outreach about intersex, nonbinary, and trans people throughout history and two of my biggest repeats are 'ideas/trappings of gender change throughout time/place' and 'intersex people/individuals with diverse sexual development are NOT NEW'. That said, we (and me) shouldn't be so hungry for solid representation that we attribute identities to folks long dead. .... I will fight people over trans ancestor Dr. James Barry tho. ALSO REALLY CURIOUS ABOUT THE SICKLE BLADE... THAT'S UH... INTERESTING
Also this past June there was an online lecture given by some neat academic folks on trans people in the Roman Empire and galli were a big ole bullet point.
Very much agreeing with your repeats! You can't identify as non-binary if the concept doesn't exist in your culture, but the concept doesn't have to exist for nb _people_ to exist. And Dr. James Barry was a legend! Have you read the bio "Scanty Particulars" by Rachel Holmes? I'm super-wary about labelling dead people too, but personally I'll fight people over emperor Elagabalus, who literally offered loads of cash to any surgeon who'd do gender reassignment surgery (I'm sure you know that tho!)
Is the urban myth in fact true? Do negative, hostile comments actually have a greater impact of positive nature on your statistical profile? If they do, out of affection and admiration, I am willing to say dreadful things. :) (P.S. I always factor in to burial examination the fact that one is buried by other people who may have made decisions that would not have pleased the star of that particular show. Most of my life has been played out in the western half of Texas. Folks do all kinds of things at a burying that might not be easy to figure out if you don't happen to live around here.)
My thoughts directly want to go to: Iron = Magical in Scandinavian folklore since as far back as we have written sources that tells anything about it. The sicle could be because this person could have been assigned to be somewhere between male and female and that they therefore could have been assumed to have Great Powers from the Gods etc etc... and therefore they needed to be buried with iron around their throat to not be able to get out of the grave and be a "corpse ghost" as we call it up here in Sweden, the earliest stories about ghosts seem to be that the body kinda was still there, more like zombies than our modern idea of a transparent soul ghost. Anyway... To make this wall of text short: Yes, that COULD be it. But no. We Do Not Know. I really wish it could be like that, it would be so cool. But it can just as well be, this human is strange and we don't get it and this poor soul had a horrible life and was finally buried with some respect for some unknown reason. We Do Not Know. So thank you for repeating this through the whole video. Because it is so important. We Do Not Know. Thank you. That was all for me. *get's of my soap box*
One story that immediately sprung to mind when reading your comment was one involving a Myling (a baby buried/abandoned without a christening) that had been buried with iron scissors on top of it under the floor, and during a party demands to be let up to join in the dance. And yeah, iron seems to be a good go-to protection from all different kinds of väsen (supernatural entities)
@@scouttyra Yes, that is one of many versions of how to use iron as protection. Mylingar is a good example of this. Iron was also good to use as a protection from other väsen, especially if it had a sharp edge, like a knife or a scythe or even sharp edges on shovels. We do not know much about why this was or when it started, but it is mentioned or heavily implied in a lot of old texts such as the Scandinavian medieval ballads and poems and also in both of the Eddas. And I think this is not something just for the North, I think this might be the case in a lot of Indo-Europeen folkmagic tradition. Might even appear in other places too. But there I again have to say: I don't know. Because I am not any kind of expert in anything byt Scandinavian folklore. I really should read up on German and Brittish folklore a bit better. :) And to go back to this case mentioned in this video. This might be a protection from the body to rise again, but it might also be a protection for the body so that supernatural beings would not disturb it. This might also be everything in between and out of the box. It's really fascinating to think around. Wonder if there's been more of these cases of a sicle across the throat in other burials? *goes to dive head deep into books*
@@jamesfisher9594 Very possible it was. I vaguely remember something about Romanian vampires and putting steel or iron on their bodies to stop them from getting out of the graves. That iron is considered something magical is for me not so strange though. A super hard material that you make soft and pliable with fire to then make hard and sharp again. Anyone who have seen a good smith working knows that there's something magic about it. ;)
But if you're from Sweden you should know that Finns are not Swedish. What has been done in Sweden isn't necessarily done in Finland because we are different people.
You’re very good at explaining what you know and even what you don’t really know. You’re also quite good at sticking to the facts as they are rather than interjecting your opinions. Thank you. It helps me better understand those who don’t fit the norm (“norm” meaning the majority rather than “normal” meaning what “ought to be”.)
So glad you covered this Jimmy! As a registered nurse and educator, I often discuss the differences between sex and gender in my classes. People are always surprised by the frequency of genetic conditions that fall outside the XX and XY binary. Think how much gendered clothing, makeup and other non-traditional and counter culture movements have changed gender roles just in the last 40 years. Trying to extrapolate gender identity from a burial site that's 1000 years old is impossible. Looks like you had some smart professors!😉
THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! I think the best part was basically saying "we will not impose a gender identity on this human." and that is beautiful. I am also now really REALLY curious about the sickle. Like that is going to be chasing itself around my brain now.
I really appreciate your take on this and your understanding of gender. It is so nice to listen to someone who understands there is a difference between sex and gender
There's a similar burial (Tortoise Brooches and a Sword, noone has done any genetics testing as far as I know) from Santon Downham. Because it was excavated in the late 1800s the assumption was that it was a double burial (without two skeletons). I personally think this probably belongs to the growing number of suspected female or female-presenting people buried with weapons. There's also a very fun excavation on the isles of Scilly recently where a grave had a sword and a 'mirror' which is a Celtic item usually denoting a female burial. The lead archaeologist devotes a paragraph to smacking down the idea that it is a double burial.
Nonbinary and intersex classicist here: thank you for this. You managed to be true to the historicity of the human person while remaining incredibly respectful of us without tiptoeing around us, which is a refreshing change of pace from a perisex binary person. Your hair also looks great!
I’ve actually been curious about how non binary people (who have always existed & are suggested in multiple contemporary sources) would have been treated in a culture such as this which DID have strict gender distinctions. Burial goods are always complicated. A woman who never touched a blade in life could be buried with her husband’s sword. Maybe he died in battle & the body wasn’t recovered so it was returned to her. Maybe like in most cultures, women were prepared to fight at home if the men were away. That doesn’t equate to the modern fantasy of the shield maiden. We just can’t know what grave goods mean unless text is included or there is something standardized. It’s ok to not know. We might someday, but it needs to be left open until we have the means to really understand it.
Great point! Could have been intersex, non binary, or transgender, or just inherited it/given to them by a man close to them, like a father or husband. Or it really could have belonged to them to defend the home. We can speculate, which is kinda fun!
The "standard" is swords with men and sewing utensils with women. Or rather, that's the standard that archeologists have found. But as you say, exceptions could happen for a number of different reasons that we just aren't privy to.
I wonder how strict gender distinctions actually were in Norse society. There's evidence the worshippers of Odin were unimpressed with men who practised 'seidr' (adopting a female role to practice magic... I think?) - but there's also evidence that Odin wasn't always the most important god in the Norse pantheon (cf. many videos by Jackson Crawford) so gender roles may not have always been so strict - and there may have been subcultures that ran alongside the viking one where NB and trans might have been fully accepted.
@@Sigart i like that jimmy mentions a weaving sword, they did use weaving swords, could they be metal dont know, but weaving ones did not seem to have guards
@@paulaunger3061 You'd be surprised how much different societal and roles were different in those societies. Females could be warriors, leaders, own land, and divorce. The Celts had similar roles. What people assume as gender rules mostly comes from Christiandom and ancient Greek/Roman ideas. There has been several amazing women warriors found. This being said, it's likely they questioned gender and roles or identified as neither or both. Or chose their own pathway. As he said, it's difficult to tell. I wish the people who wrote these articles would do their research
Having been found in finland and pretty inland too, if the scythe held religious significance (outside of being a tool they would have used in life) it was probably related to finnish paganism in some way. Interesting thing about finnish folk religion is that gender had a role in the core religious beliefs. The religion was very dualistic; the north, evergreens, the moon, left handedness, death, magic/spirits, winter and women were on one side of the dualism coin ("alinen") where as the south, birch trees, the sun, right handedness, life, summer and men were associated with the world of the living and ylinen. Because of this women were believed to be more in tune with the spirit world which also makes me wonder what role people with differing gender identities or biological differences would play. Very interesting find though and i hope we find out more about this
I absolutely adore the fact that you do nuance. There's not enough nuance and not enough science (real science) around that reaches to people. And as a cis person I am still woefully unaware of some things and issues and videos like this just really open up my perspective and perception of the world. There are few things I enjoy more. So thank you for that.
Well done on fixing the audio issue, and thank you for being very careful to sort of “depoliticize” this story and emphasize the facts of the archeological evidence, not the bs narrative being presented in the vast majority of mainstream press about the findings.
It's freakin amazing that we can determine something like this about a person who lived a thousand years ago. I have a relative with klinefelter's, how cool to have evidence of a person with the same condition so long in the past. It had not crossed my mind how his life could have panned out in a different era or locale.
When I was a kid, I remember watching a tv show with a "psychic" who claimed to be able to "read the energy" of any object and know every detail about whoever had handled the object. Of course I don't believe in that, but ugh!, every time I see a story like this or watch Time Team on youtube, I wish an archeologist actually DID have that superpower!
It always strikes me that what is in a grave is more telling of what everyone else thought than the person themselves. How many out trans people today are buried under dead names in clothes they never wore? Whoever buried this person chose to put them in traditionally female clothing. I wonder if the person in the grave had a say in it.
So relieved when you got to the question about the sickle! I spent the entire video from the first point you mentioned it trying desperately to keep concentrating while my brain was stuck on "Wait, hang on... why is there a sickle at their throat?!"
You're so good at turning a clickbait topic into not just a video to call out the bullshit, but also suggest some actual new and interesting ideas, I really love it.
Your "Never Not Here" video was the first one of yours I came across. Your whole vibe in that video, especially at the very end, struck me as very "super kind older brother" energy. And I was absolutely here for the message of "yeah, we don't get to say what these dead people's gender presentations were all the time." More people need to hear that "I don't know" is a very acceptable answer. Made a subscriber of me!
I've always said, a puzzled scientist is a happy scientist. "We don't know" seems to drive the rest of us to invent stories (and gods) to explain it. *Where* are the skull, spine, and pelvis? It's weird the biggest bones in the body are missing; time, tomb raiders, ghost dogs, ...? And making stuff up in my head; could the sword without furniture be about the person being from a high status family, but this person never went viking? (Yes, I know; possibly, possibly not.) Great vid, thanks. Also, love the new 'do.
I was really curious about the scythe blade too, having some background in mythology, it reminds me of grain god harvest myths, but I've no idea where to go from there. I hope there is a positive reason for the scythe blade instead of a, we lay you to rest with honor, but don't come back, sort of thing. The possibilities are wide, but more evidence is needed. Knowing that this person had Klinefelter syndrome makes the grave even more curious. Klinefelter syndrome males can be tetracromats, because of their unique genetics. Could our Klinefelter person have been assigned a role in life because of color vision similar to 12% of the female population?
Of all the stories to suddenly sweep the internet, I confess surprise to find it is this one. Even without searching it appeared to be following me...what's fun, in a peculiar way, is the fact that many sites added (highly fanciful!) illustrations of what this person 'might' have looked like when buried. Thanks for your observations, valuable as usual.
It's so frustrating that we don't know and have such tiny fragments to work with. At the same time, it's amazing how much those tiny fragments can tell us. Imagine what we'll be able to know in another fifty years!
Fascinating video. You're right about your title being clickbait. I wasn't subscribed but the title intrigued me when it appeared in my recommendations as did your channel name Welsh Viking...I studied in Aberystwyth and my first honeymoon was to the Lofoten Islands in Norway, so Welsh and Viking interest me, too. Archaeology throws up lots of fascinating puzzles. I've recently been interested in the site of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, a pre agricultural site, which is so mysterious and throws up more questions than answers.
Random question that idk if anyone has an answer to this, but has there been any Strontium Isotope analysis done on the bones? Just cuz I’m curious if the person was local to the area or came from elsewhere
I can't tell you how much respect I have for your unflinching willingness to address these complicated and polarizing subjects. Your open mind and deeply respectful approach is both refreshing and uplifting - Not just in this video, but across the spectrum of the topics you explore. I'm thrilled to have discovered your channel, and look forward to more.
I'm really glad the (swedish) news article I read this from took a position very close to your points and was very good with mentioning the y'know... guesswork angle of the latter statements of what it could have possibly meant The only truth is that skeleton is likely to have been intersex and they were buried with both a sword and brooches and that the second sword was probably added later. Also wow. Sickle blade necklace sounds epic (but also like a threat... a really massive threat). A blade to the neck? Edge up to the artery ? Idk dude... Clickbait titles are really good at what they do but for readers to then believe that the title is the truth of the content is just... no. Please update your reading comprehension if you find yourself valuing articles by their almost mandatory clickbait titles these days.
As serious a subject as this is and as well done as the video is (including the editorial notes clarifying some things you were struggling with a bit) I still cannot resist pointing this out: 9:26 "...we *sex* skeletons, and we often get it wrong." is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've heard all week. Out of context it sounds like a desperate plea to experienced necrophiles to show you what you're doing wrong. :) But good job on clarifying beyond the daft media coverage of this, and for understanding the difference between sex and gender better than the original reporters did.
Just discovering your channel because of Max Miller over at Tasting History (and the Mari Lwyd). As someone who enjoys history but never made it a profession, “We don’t know” is my favorite thing to hear a scholars say, especially when that’s the start of the whole discussion. It means that after that we’ll be getting an exploration of information, and not a broadside of dry drivel. So thank you!
Another great nuanced and respectful video! It's always a treat to get your insight on this type of things! I'm a non-binary uni student and I often feel that attempts at "inclusivity" in certain fields of study, even if welcomed, lack the type of nuance you had when discussing this so yeah very validating keep up the greatness 10/10
this is excellent. the on-screen text was of significant importance, worth filming yourself saying out loud and editing in. thanks for your contributions to understanding our ancestors.
Would the small scythe perhaps be a symbol for a brewer ? (Versus a standing scythe which would be for wheat?!) If I remember correctly, "women" were often brewers in many cultures.....
I just wish more academics had the combination of humility and self-assurance that allows them to state: we.just.don‘t.know. In fact, politicians would benefit from taking that to heart too. Lovely video as always, perfectly balanced between educational and entertaining. BTW I‘m going to Norway for the first time this weekend, really looking forward to visiting the Viking ship museum. We‘ll also be close to Gudvangen and were thinking of going to the Viking Valley site - have you ever been, if so, what did you think? The website seems to be pushing the line of ‘we‘re not actors in costumes, we‘re real Vikings living our best Viking lives‘ which seems to make an interesting distinction between reenactors who are passionate about their era and people who are ‘just’ doing living history as a paid job.
Dear lovely clever person on the internets: 1. Thank you for your entertaining and informative videos, I've been binging a load of them and have learnt lots of useful and interesting things. 2. Please could you consider editing/correcting the subtitles on your videos? UA-cam makes these subtitles automatically but their algorithms are often inaccurate, especially with more unusual terminology or when you speak Welsh! It would really help those of us who sometimes find written language easier to comprehend than spoken. Thank you!
P.S. UA-cam has some funny interpretations of your speech. For example, some of your Welsh language is subtitled as '[Music]' which is lovely, but 'Penannular Brooch' is subtitled as 'Penile Approach', which is perhaps a bit more dubious!
😆 Subtitles are such unintended comedians at times. Gotten many a laugh from youtube that way, especially foreign language content... totally useless, but hysterical.
An intelligent and clear video, your channel rules - finally someone with a profound and academic knowledge of ancient Norse culture, your enthusiasm is infectious. Doubt and recognition of ones holes of knowledge and acknowledging that things cannot always be known are the signs of true wisdom. As for the sickle, I am curious as to how many other graves were found in the area from the dame era and what was found in them...
Thanks for cutting through the tacky clickbait headlines. For me, the combination of the cheap brooches with the sword blade (low status objects with high status) is also very interesting.
I find it refreshing that someone who clearly like Welsh Viking know lots about subject he has expertise in is honest about people not knowing what this could mean . I think we should see things for what they were and not take modem day attitude
I'm here bcoz I want to be here... I love watching ur vids and find them ALL informative in a beautiful way. Keep them coming.... BTW nice hair cut Jimmy
My brain when immediately to Norse Getafix! But seriously, thank you for a balanced, sympathetic, fascinating video - as always PS - like the hair cut - looks very smart and suits you ^*^
"That's just part of the Human Condition" Louder again for the people in the back Also loved the video, I am also very curious about the sickle blade and kept going back to thinking of that History is just interesting and I like hearing about things that I may never know
Great video, you're right about why i clicked, I was intrigued - had some trepidation as well as curiosity, but I had nothing to worry about! Fascinating, respectful, and willing to admit how much we don't know - this is how archeology should be presented imo :)
Most of the Medieval history channels on UA-cam are decidedly conservative and have little if any sympathy for the LGBTQ+ community, which is fine. I want to hear different opinions. And I appreciate that regardless of politics, all channels are devoted to historical accuracy. It's just there are, from what I've discovered, not many medieval history channels that are open to what we now refer to as LGBTQ+ people in history, or for that matter supportive of LGBTQ+ people and modern feminism at all. So thank you for being an oasis in this community.
Great vid, and I, too, want to know what's up with the sickle, it's a bit odd. Wish I would have had you as an archeology proff, would have been fascinating fun. Thanks!
This story had passed me by until now, so it was very interesting to learn about it. I had, over the years heard about various graves where the grave goods didn't match the (archaeologists') expectations of sex assigned at death. And of course its fascinating to speculate how many graves were miss-assigned a sex based largely on the grave goods. If this body had been found only with a sword, or only with tortoise brooches would there have been enough interest, and money, to attempt the genetic analysis? Of course intersex people have always existed, and here is one we can point to and speculate what effect that had on their life and death, and what a fascinating collection of clues. Genetic and isotope studies keep opening new ways to view the past, and it keeps getting even more interesting.
I deeply appreciate your approach to all archeological findings. There are a lot of people, usually with fabric or cultural finds that just paint an assumption about the individual(s) for convenient personal biases, but in reality, it's complicated and we may never know, which few people seem to want to admit. As you said, the best we can do is understand as best we can, but to make any bold assumptions is simply too ignorant when that's never the point. Love your videos, best wishes, have a lovely week!
Uh when the genetics got mentioned I was glue to the screen! I am NOT in anyway an expert in genetics but I've had some teaching in this during my educations time and I think it's facinating! The sentence "We don't gender skeletons, we sex skeletons" is epic! Thank you for doing this video.
The sickle is the mystery I want to know, and it gives me an incredible amount of stress that we never will. Was it because they were murdered? Or were they holding it when they were buried? Maybe they were a very important person in farming community and were it was placed there to continue farming in the next life. That's almost certainly not right but I think it's a cool idea. Great video!
My first thought of the sickle was "don't come back". Sitting up with a blade around your throat would probably have been not that great haha. But then with the "shoddy" nice things in the grave, it does seem like they were respected. So maybe the death was an accident, or maybe the sickle was just reassurance about no hauntings, who knows. It's fun to speculate, even though we probably will never know (and we certainly do not know right now).
I know this is two years old at this point (as is the Intersex video). But I still wanted to reach out and say thank you, and your warmth and acceptance expressed in both videos is really, really awesome. I doubt anyone has failed to bring it up, but Kilnefelter Syndrooe is an Intersex condition recognized by Intersex rights groups around the globe. Also, as an intersex individual, these videos have meant far ore than you may realize to numerous people. Thank you, thank you, again.
However they identified, their gender was likely unusual. As someone whose gender is also unusual, I don't get to see people like me in history very often. I feel special kinship with them for this and it's delightful to know they existed. Thank you for the info.
"We just don't know" = the most important sentence any researcher must learn to be comfortable with, in archeology, in history, in humanities, in stem, in the medical field... Sometimes we don't have all of the answers. and it's important to be able to put your hand up and say we do not know, we don't have a way to find out. We can guess, we can make theories, but some things cannot be confirmed.
The same thing my history teacher told me a few years back, still remember it to this day, great teacher.
@@Visibletoallusers12 Same thing as discussions I just had on deciding who was "good" or "bad" about people we know a little about, but not what was gossip and slander, propaganda, and recent romantic novels, where anyone is free to speculate, but we still do not know.
This discussion is underrated.
No reason to leave some of the "hard" sciences out of that. Don't let the physicists fool you, an awful lot of their work is running on unproven hypotheses based on limited observations, especially when you get into astrophysics. Educated speculation as a basis for research is about the best we can do a lot of the time in many fields.
Be nice if the real anti-science types would stop acting like that little revelation was some kind of "gotcha" moment that justifies chucking out all of human learning, though.
@@richmcgee434 This!! 🙄 There seem to be some really pervasive popular beliefs that a) Scientific hypotheses can never be updated to reflect new data, b) If you do update your theory, the whole thing was invalid from the start, c) Saying "we don't know yet" is some kind of indictment of the whole scientific method, and d) Scientific "theory" means "we're just making stuff up", not "here is the best potential hypothesis we can state based on current data & research".
This doesn't seem to just be a problem amongst people who're actively anti-science, but frankly amongst most of us as general population who don't necessarily understand how scientific research & theory works...? It's been particularly observable in people's responses to pandemic-related medical research + recommendations.
I'd love to see more active primary & secondary level education re the basics of the scientific method, logical fallacies, and oratorical techniques? Think it'd really help future generations develop much better critical thinking...
NOTE NOTE NOTE!
A major point here that needs clarification is that Moilanen et al has been *misrepresented* in the media, as assigning non-binary status to the individual in this grave, which they have *not* done (note I used the quote that says "may").
As Ulla Moilanen specifically states in this very comments section:
"The press has been misrepresenting the research and many seem to think that we unquestionably link the Klinefelter's to a non-binary self-identity, although that's not what we do. Quote from the paper: "Biogical sex variations have several contributing factors, and all chromosomal sexes may identify themselves as male, female, or anything outside the binary. Regardless of karyotype or anatomical appearance, the Suontaka individual too could have identified themself anywhere in the gender spectrum (see Moen, 2019)." We are also saying that gender identities may not have been personal choices like today, but shaped by society in complex ways. What we mean by non-binary is that it seems that this person was not considered male or female the way we usually understand the division...
The inhabitants of Late Iron Age / EM Finland are not usually called vikings, and apron dresses were not used in Finland at the time. The feminine dress consisted of an underdress and a folded peplos over it.)"
I accept all aspects of this comment, which I think comes out in the video, but I would like to apologise to the authors of the paper if it appears I'm siding with the press on this. I hope it's clear from the last 6 minutes of the video, but I am categorically *not* doing that.
Be cool and remember: only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Please pin this comment (your, not mine) before it gets buried within the comments section.
I would note that while we may have more freedom in gender expression in some places at this time than may have existed in other places and times, gender, and individual choices about gender, are still shaped by culture in complex ways. We never make purely free choices; we choose from what's available to us based on social costs and benefits.
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes” is an absolute, so does that mean Jimmy is a Sith? 🤔
😜
@@lordofuzkulak8308 Suspicion is the way of the Dark Side ;)
Or George Lucas is as shite at scriptwriting as Alec Guinness said... XD
If I remember correctly, of all the articles I have seen only the Guardian quoted her correctly.
Thank you for this. As somebody who’s NB, it’s extremely reassuring when somebody is critical of branding this grave as non binary. An AMAB wearing ‘womens clothing’ doesn’t inherently mean they were on the trans spectrum in any way, and a lot of people don’t seem to think about that.
Intersex people, or people with Klinefelter can choose for themselves and dress how they feel, and we can’t do that to them to gender them post-mortem. So thank you.
Further, I am unaware of any data that indicates people with Klinefelter Syndrome are any more likely to be identify as non-binary than someone without the condition. The vast majority still identify as male. And so, it would be a hugely presumptuous of the scientific community, not to mention disrespectful - to the person, people with Klinefelter Syndrome, and the non-binary community - to label or presume the person as non-binary on the basis of their genetic makeup.
@@evilwelshman Absolutely. A genetic condition has no power over identity and exists exclusively. Also, identity and expression also live exclusively to one another, so who are we as people in the 21st Century to understand this grave’s identity just from a few articles of clothing? We could be interpreting it entirely wrong, so this grave being branded as non-binary isn’t the wisest move.
Generally speaking, and I'm coming very much from an a) very modern perspective and b) that of a person with a background in the social sciences / a radical empiricist here:
I think it's a rather sensible operating assumption to presume that this whole "gender identity" situation is, in a nutshell, something very 21st century in general. This is not to say that identities aren't valid - just that we have to understand historical people as people of their time. And that, just as a 16th century equivalent of myself arguably wouldn't have seen herself within a theoretical framework of systematic misogyny, a Viking arguably wouldn't have seen themselves as "non-binary". Neither of these mean that women / enbies weren't deserving of respect in their times - merely that how we frame any of these and how individuals would have regarded themselves opposite society: we either have documentary evidence for, or we'd be safer, academically speaking, not making assumptions that super-impose our modern notions upon people of ages past.
In that sense: fully on board with "we don't gender - we sex - skeletons".
Klinefelter is always male. Generally speaking, if you have a Y chromosome you're a male. Klinefelter is XXY. There are also many men out there who don't even realise they have Klinfelter other than that they might have realised that they are less developed than other males. Same with Turner syndrome - always a female just with one X instead of two. It's not right to put either as intersex conditions even though some intersex activists and lobbyists of do it to massively inflate their numbers. They are in the categories of their own condition.
Did Jimmy seriously think that we wouldn’t notice the obvious? He got a haircut and it looks really really good.
Yep, he does! :-)
Oh ya! He looks sharp!
Seriously sharp-looking trim. Very nice.
Looking goooood, Jimmy!
Really loved the long hair too though, but I have no say whatsoever over anyone else's body so as long as Jimmy's happy with it, I'm happy.
Becoming comfortable with the uncomfortable notion that something cannot be known is a much-needed skill.
🤪 I agree, but it also feels like something that goes against the whole grain of historical human thought!! We're such pattern-creating and pattern-seeking beings; we fear chaos and the unexplained; we've always made up explanations (gods, magic, science, whatever) to try and correlate the unfamiliar with the already-known... To bravely state "we don't know, and we're okay with that" feels like a really huge step! 😯
As a nonbinary person, it's reassuring to hear that archaeologists don't gender skeletons or try to put modern interpretations of gender onto ancient cultures (any more). I've been reading a little about the skeleton, and have been inclined towards interpreting 'non-binary' as the broadest possible umbrella of 'not taking a traditional male or female gender role', but I appreciate other interpretations exist and that, at the end of the day, it's still assuming the gender of someone who isn't around to correct us.
Now I want to know more about meaning for the inclusion and placement of the sickle, and just have to accept "we don't know" for an answer.
Caveat: This is relatively new. My parent's archeology and anthropology college professors and their colleagues did not make the current distinction between gendering and sexing skeletons done now. There is a "generational" difference here and I can easily see certain of the older people in these fields refusing the distinction. And they may still be active in teaching, research, and publishing. "Buyer beware" and all that.
As an anthropologist, thank you for saying 'we don't know'. It irritates the normies, who like things in black and white, but too bad. Well done!
Theory that amuses me: We’re keeping your sword hilt to remember you by, being a magic person you’re enchanting the sword to do it’s work rather than wielding it. And the sicle… well, uh we’re sorry, but you’re frighteningly powerful and we’d like you to stay in your grave. K? Thanks.
I know of at least one story in which an iron implement has been used to try to keep a dead person from rising
The sicle was way later still a thing with the fear of undead people rise from the graves all over europe.
I thought of something a bit similar as well.
I want to remind people that Finland, while a neighbor to Scandinavia, did have a very different mythology and culture. So what applies to Scandinavian mythology and beliefs, might not and probably does not apply to this grave. Finns did not go on vikings and were not vikings for example. They did raid (just like everyone did at that time), but not in the same manner. I study Finnish prehistory (mostly iron age/viking age) and mythology and their ancient beliefs.
I have a huge interest in this if you have any resources you could share with me - Finnish beliefs have been very patchy to study and I would love to fill the gaps in my knowledge.
@@robbaldwin2402 we have a very large collection of Finnish folklore in Finnish National Archive and I think it's digitalised and at least some of it is translated.
@@dangerousalphabets5267 I can read slowly in Finnish, so it's not a disaster if it's not all translated, but I will delve into it. I visited them once, but there was an overwhelming number of texts!
@@robbaldwin2402 If you can visit and you are interested in something specific you can inform them before you come and they will find everything on that subject for you.
Also, very sorry for the very late reply. I do not get messages of replies for some reason
Observation with caveats. (As an Intersex person of Middle Eastern Descent.)
We have information from various sources, including the Talmud, of people with Klinefelter type presentation being an identifiable class of persons. (Taller men who do not grow facial hair and have small external genitalia.)
With the caveat that Greek/Aramaic speakers around the Western Mediterrean in late antiquity are unlikely to have any cultural commonalities with Nordic communities around 1000 BCE; it is plausible that Klinefelter presentation MIGHT have constituted a recognized category in that community as well.
I know just enough (which is not enough) about Nordic culture to know the existence of Seidhr men. I don't know whether men could be born into that identity or whether it was associated with natural beardlessness.
As you said, it's impossible to know whether any individual in a grave fits into a social category. I think it's interesting in its own right whether those social categories exist or not.
(One factoid that I found interesting from the Talmud - were not allowed to be enslaved.)
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing :)
History continues to be as ever far more interesting and complex than some would have us believe.
if people think history is boring they have not look farther than primary school history
'We do not gender skeletons, we sex them', I remember being told the same thing in Liverpool uni archeology 101 and human osteoarchaeology. It was a great thing to learn, splitting biology from culture was a fun topic, I really enjoyed the difference between aging skeletons as adults and seeing what the culture saw as an adult
Sex and gender are both constructs and saying other wise is transphobic
@@KN-cool HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
@nathanh1582 okay snowflake I know the truth can be scary for you so I will let you live in your fear and ignorance. Try not to get too emotional
lol@@KN-cool
I'm nonbinary myself, and I'd like to thank you for handling the topic with sensitivity.
What a lovely attitude to have in archeology towards gender, and to teach it so early on shows how important it is to the field. How totally awesome!
Above all, the most important thing to remember about genes and chromosomes is: no matter how complicated you think genetics is, it is more complicated than that. And that's not even getting into the relationship between genotype (what specific genes a person or other creature has) and phenotype (the result of how all those genes have interacted and been expressed in a live organism), which is, unbelievably, even more complicated.
The typical syndrome associated with male genotype that compares to Turner Syndrome is actually Noonan syndrome, although the genetic mutations aren't the same. My daughter has Classic variant Turners. While this isn't necessarily related to Klinefelter's Syndrome I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about Turners. Experts now are debating whether to consider TS as an intersex diagnosis.
Fascinating, thank you
As both a trans woman and an intersex person (with an archaeologist for a mother), I'm going to have an absolute ball when my skeleton confuses the hell out of future archaeologists.
Put a bunch of trans flag pins in there to fuck with then tenfold (Let the "what does this symbol mean? Could it be a ritual of some kind? Why the three colours? W H A T I S T H I S" ensue)
You seriously need a funeral plan which specifies what you will be buried with. The scope is endless.
@@dees3179 And that plan needs to optimize the chances of her skeleton surviving as much as humanly possible, this will be fun
@@JBguitar-cj8pc none of that here lads
@@LordZeebee good soil conditions will be important for both the body and artifacts
I do think that "nonbinary" isnt the worst word to use in the headlines for the topic because it's talking about the possibility that the person wasn't a man or woman in their life, whether it was personal or not, and that... can be connected to their intersex reality (see: alyonit/tumtum/saris/etc) but I also really think the article could've been titled better BECAUSE it's an intersex individual and the potential that they're nonbinary seems almost a footnote to the actual discovery.
Ironically this is the opposite issue to several old Joan D'Arc documentaries where they called her presentation "intersex" when androgynous or nonbinary would've been more accurate so it's interesting to see how perisex cis society has shifted its inaccuracy in like... ten years.
Considering that many magic-workers seem to have been female, this person may have been seen as partaking of both and honored in this way. The fact that the grave goods were not especially 'rich' may only speak to what was available to those who did the burial. The curved blade? My wild-assed conjecture is that it might have meant "Even if you're still annoyed at us, please stay in your grave, and don't haunt us." I'm very interested in the later, second sword..maybe an upgrade? (Also, cute haircut.)
I like your idea about the sickle. Like they viewed this person as magical (a Seiðr practitioner?) and thought they might rise from the dead. The sickle could have been placed to stop them getting back up.
The idea kinda reminds me of "vampire graves" where the corpse would be re-arranged or have stakes or heavy items put on it to prevent the person rising up, I think they've been found in a lot of medieval Christian Europe and even in colonial America. Perhaps it could be a similar thing?
@@benjalucian1515 any sword whether in usable condition or not was an expensive item. The lack of hilt is a minor thing compared to the making of a sword. A magic worker might chose not to have valuable metal items. They may have been buried with much expensive fabrics and furs but that didn't survive.
@@benjalucian1515 and apparently the furs survived along with indications of feathers. You don't strip off a hilt in order to "dishonor " the person. Unless the hilt is heavily ornamented with precious stones, the blade costs more, you would destroy the blade or simply not bury the sword with them. This is an honourable burial of someone who was respected.
@@benjalucian1515 we do know about viking burials and what a sword meant. I don't know why you are being such a bigot to insist that a sword missing part of a hilt is contempt. Nothing in the burial suggests that except your hangups.
Thank you SO MUCH for your open-minded dissection of the grave. I do a lot of public outreach about intersex, nonbinary, and trans people throughout history and two of my biggest repeats are 'ideas/trappings of gender change throughout time/place' and 'intersex people/individuals with diverse sexual development are NOT NEW'. That said, we (and me) shouldn't be so hungry for solid representation that we attribute identities to folks long dead.
.... I will fight people over trans ancestor Dr. James Barry tho.
ALSO REALLY CURIOUS ABOUT THE SICKLE BLADE... THAT'S UH... INTERESTING
Also this past June there was an online lecture given by some neat academic folks on trans people in the Roman Empire and galli were a big ole bullet point.
Very much agreeing with your repeats! You can't identify as non-binary if the concept doesn't exist in your culture, but the concept doesn't have to exist for nb _people_ to exist. And Dr. James Barry was a legend! Have you read the bio "Scanty Particulars" by Rachel Holmes? I'm super-wary about labelling dead people too, but personally I'll fight people over emperor Elagabalus, who literally offered loads of cash to any surgeon who'd do gender reassignment surgery (I'm sure you know that tho!)
Is the urban myth in fact true? Do negative, hostile comments actually have a greater impact of positive nature on your statistical profile? If they do, out of affection and admiration, I am willing to say dreadful things. :) (P.S. I always factor in to burial examination the fact that one is buried by other people who may have made decisions that would not have pleased the star of that particular show. Most of my life has been played out in the western half of Texas. Folks do all kinds of things at a burying that might not be easy to figure out if you don't happen to live around here.)
My thoughts directly want to go to: Iron = Magical in Scandinavian folklore since as far back as we have written sources that tells anything about it. The sicle could be because this person could have been assigned to be somewhere between male and female and that they therefore could have been assumed to have Great Powers from the Gods etc etc... and therefore they needed to be buried with iron around their throat to not be able to get out of the grave and be a "corpse ghost" as we call it up here in Sweden, the earliest stories about ghosts seem to be that the body kinda was still there, more like zombies than our modern idea of a transparent soul ghost. Anyway...
To make this wall of text short: Yes, that COULD be it. But no. We Do Not Know. I really wish it could be like that, it would be so cool. But it can just as well be, this human is strange and we don't get it and this poor soul had a horrible life and was finally buried with some respect for some unknown reason. We Do Not Know. So thank you for repeating this through the whole video. Because it is so important. We Do Not Know.
Thank you. That was all for me.
*get's of my soap box*
One story that immediately sprung to mind when reading your comment was one involving a Myling (a baby buried/abandoned without a christening) that had been buried with iron scissors on top of it under the floor, and during a party demands to be let up to join in the dance.
And yeah, iron seems to be a good go-to protection from all different kinds of väsen (supernatural entities)
@@scouttyra Yes, that is one of many versions of how to use iron as protection. Mylingar is a good example of this. Iron was also good to use as a protection from other väsen, especially if it had a sharp edge, like a knife or a scythe or even sharp edges on shovels. We do not know much about why this was or when it started, but it is mentioned or heavily implied in a lot of old texts such as the Scandinavian medieval ballads and poems and also in both of the Eddas. And I think this is not something just for the North, I think this might be the case in a lot of Indo-Europeen folkmagic tradition. Might even appear in other places too. But there I again have to say: I don't know. Because I am not any kind of expert in anything byt Scandinavian folklore. I really should read up on German and Brittish folklore a bit better. :)
And to go back to this case mentioned in this video. This might be a protection from the body to rise again, but it might also be a protection for the body so that supernatural beings would not disturb it. This might also be everything in between and out of the box. It's really fascinating to think around. Wonder if there's been more of these cases of a sicle across the throat in other burials? *goes to dive head deep into books*
Wasn't that a thing later in eastern Europe to keep particular people from 'getting up'.
@@jamesfisher9594 Very possible it was. I vaguely remember something about Romanian vampires and putting steel or iron on their bodies to stop them from getting out of the graves. That iron is considered something magical is for me not so strange though. A super hard material that you make soft and pliable with fire to then make hard and sharp again. Anyone who have seen a good smith working knows that there's something magic about it. ;)
But if you're from Sweden you should know that Finns are not Swedish. What has been done in Sweden isn't necessarily done in Finland because we are different people.
You’re very good at explaining what you know and even what you don’t really know. You’re also quite good at sticking to the facts as they are rather than interjecting your opinions. Thank you. It helps me better understand those who don’t fit the norm (“norm” meaning the majority rather than “normal” meaning what “ought to be”.)
I love that you have no problem with saying "We don't know", it is so refreshing. Also your hair looks good!
Thanks! It's completely essential to be able to admit ignorance. The word for a researcher who can't do that is "liar"! :P
So glad you covered this Jimmy! As a registered nurse and educator, I often discuss the differences between sex and gender in my classes. People are always surprised by the frequency of genetic conditions that fall outside the XX and XY binary.
Think how much gendered clothing, makeup and other non-traditional and counter culture movements have changed gender roles just in the last 40 years. Trying to extrapolate gender identity from a burial site that's 1000 years old is impossible. Looks like you had some smart professors!😉
THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! I think the best part was basically saying "we will not impose a gender identity on this human." and that is beautiful.
I am also now really REALLY curious about the sickle. Like that is going to be chasing itself around my brain now.
I really appreciate your take on this and your understanding of gender. It is so nice to listen to someone who understands there is a difference between sex and gender
There's a similar burial (Tortoise Brooches and a Sword, noone has done any genetics testing as far as I know) from Santon Downham. Because it was excavated in the late 1800s the assumption was that it was a double burial (without two skeletons). I personally think this probably belongs to the growing number of suspected female or female-presenting people buried with weapons.
There's also a very fun excavation on the isles of Scilly recently where a grave had a sword and a 'mirror' which is a Celtic item usually denoting a female burial. The lead archaeologist devotes a paragraph to smacking down the idea that it is a double burial.
Nonbinary and intersex classicist here: thank you for this. You managed to be true to the historicity of the human person while remaining incredibly respectful of us without tiptoeing around us, which is a refreshing change of pace from a perisex binary person. Your hair also looks great!
I’ve actually been curious about how non binary people (who have always existed & are suggested in multiple contemporary sources) would have been treated in a culture such as this which DID have strict gender distinctions.
Burial goods are always complicated. A woman who never touched a blade in life could be buried with her husband’s sword. Maybe he died in battle & the body wasn’t recovered so it was returned to her. Maybe like in most cultures, women were prepared to fight at home if the men were away. That doesn’t equate to the modern fantasy of the shield maiden.
We just can’t know what grave goods mean unless text is included or there is something standardized. It’s ok to not know. We might someday, but it needs to be left open until we have the means to really understand it.
Great point! Could have been intersex, non binary, or transgender, or just inherited it/given to them by a man close to them, like a father or husband. Or it really could have belonged to them to defend the home. We can speculate, which is kinda fun!
The "standard" is swords with men and sewing utensils with women. Or rather, that's the standard that archeologists have found. But as you say, exceptions could happen for a number of different reasons that we just aren't privy to.
I wonder how strict gender distinctions actually were in Norse society. There's evidence the worshippers of Odin were unimpressed with men who practised 'seidr' (adopting a female role to practice magic... I think?) - but there's also evidence that Odin wasn't always the most important god in the Norse pantheon (cf. many videos by Jackson Crawford) so gender roles may not have always been so strict - and there may have been subcultures that ran alongside the viking one where NB and trans might have been fully accepted.
@@Sigart i like that jimmy mentions a weaving sword, they did use weaving swords, could they be metal dont know, but weaving ones did not seem to have guards
@@paulaunger3061 You'd be surprised how much different societal and roles were different in those societies. Females could be warriors, leaders, own land, and divorce. The Celts had similar roles.
What people assume as gender rules mostly comes from Christiandom and ancient Greek/Roman ideas.
There has been several amazing women warriors found.
This being said, it's likely they questioned gender and roles or identified as neither or both. Or chose their own pathway. As he said, it's difficult to tell.
I wish the people who wrote these articles would do their research
This is a take so thoughtful and respectful towards everyone involved in, and everyone potentially affected by, stories like this. Thank you!
You look fresh and healthy. Much beter than a few months ago!
Having been found in finland and pretty inland too, if the scythe held religious significance (outside of being a tool they would have used in life) it was probably related to finnish paganism in some way. Interesting thing about finnish folk religion is that gender had a role in the core religious beliefs. The religion was very dualistic; the north, evergreens, the moon, left handedness, death, magic/spirits, winter and women were on one side of the dualism coin ("alinen") where as the south, birch trees, the sun, right handedness, life, summer and men were associated with the world of the living and ylinen.
Because of this women were believed to be more in tune with the spirit world which also makes me wonder what role people with differing gender identities or biological differences would play.
Very interesting find though and i hope we find out more about this
I absolutely adore the fact that you do nuance. There's not enough nuance and not enough science (real science) around that reaches to people. And as a cis person I am still woefully unaware of some things and issues and videos like this just really open up my perspective and perception of the world. There are few things I enjoy more. So thank you for that.
The reason I subscribed to your channel a few months ago is because you try to share information respecting both history and modernity. That's rare.
13:52 "hahaha everything's ritual" needs to be a material culture reaction gif ASAP
Yes! Smarter people than I! Hop to it!
I've now got an image in my head of a very tired Editing Jimmy dancing around to manic jazz music. Thanks for that image and a very interesting video.
Well done on fixing the audio issue, and thank you for being very careful to sort of “depoliticize” this story and emphasize the facts of the archeological evidence, not the bs narrative being presented in the vast majority of mainstream press about the findings.
It's freakin amazing that we can determine something like this about a person who lived a thousand years ago. I have a relative with klinefelter's, how cool to have evidence of a person with the same condition so long in the past. It had not crossed my mind how his life could have panned out in a different era or locale.
When I was a kid, I remember watching a tv show with a "psychic" who claimed to be able to "read the energy" of any object and know every detail about whoever had handled the object. Of course I don't believe in that, but ugh!, every time I see a story like this or watch Time Team on youtube, I wish an archeologist actually DID have that superpower!
Youre probably my fav small history channel. youre very serious an charismatic.
Love the new haircut Jimmy. Looks great. Great video with lots of interesting facts. Keep up the good work.
It always strikes me that what is in a grave is more telling of what everyone else thought than the person themselves. How many out trans people today are buried under dead names in clothes they never wore? Whoever buried this person chose to put them in traditionally female clothing. I wonder if the person in the grave had a say in it.
Yes, I was thinking that, too. We can't know which way it went.
So relieved when you got to the question about the sickle! I spent the entire video from the first point you mentioned it trying desperately to keep concentrating while my brain was stuck on "Wait, hang on... why is there a sickle at their throat?!"
1) I love this kind of content: super interesting and always respectful.
2) While I do love long-tressed Jimmy, the new do looks fab.
You're so good at turning a clickbait topic into not just a video to call out the bullshit, but also suggest some actual new and interesting ideas, I really love it.
I love your carefull and respectfull approach.
Your "Never Not Here" video was the first one of yours I came across. Your whole vibe in that video, especially at the very end, struck me as very "super kind older brother" energy. And I was absolutely here for the message of "yeah, we don't get to say what these dead people's gender presentations were all the time." More people need to hear that "I don't know" is a very acceptable answer. Made a subscriber of me!
Jimmie, you have my entire nonbinary heart. It is little, and broken, but still good. Thank you. 🖤💜🤍💛
I've always said, a puzzled scientist is a happy scientist. "We don't know" seems to drive the rest of us to invent stories (and gods) to explain it.
*Where* are the skull, spine, and pelvis? It's weird the biggest bones in the body are missing; time, tomb raiders, ghost dogs, ...? And making stuff up in my head; could the sword without furniture be about the person being from a high status family, but this person never went viking? (Yes, I know; possibly, possibly not.)
Great vid, thanks. Also, love the new 'do.
Finnish soil is notoriously bad at preserving bones, mainly due to the acidity.
I was really curious about the scythe blade too, having some background in mythology, it reminds me of grain god harvest myths, but I've no idea where to go from there. I hope there is a positive reason for the scythe blade instead of a, we lay you to rest with honor, but don't come back, sort of thing. The possibilities are wide, but more evidence is needed.
Knowing that this person had Klinefelter syndrome makes the grave even more curious. Klinefelter syndrome males can be tetracromats, because of their unique genetics. Could our Klinefelter person have been assigned a role in life because of color vision similar to 12% of the female population?
I just looked up tetracromacy. Woah.
I'm a tetrachromate.
Or Freyja, goddess of grain and harvests... She also took half the dead when her representatives went to war...
Some Englishman: "Oy! Are'ye a lad or a lassie?!"
NB-Viking: "You've got my axe in your belly right now. Why do you even care?"
😂
only that's Scottish not English lol. an Englishperson would say "Hallo, that's odd, are you a man or a woman?"
Of all the stories to suddenly sweep the internet, I confess surprise to find it is this one. Even without searching it appeared to be following me...what's fun, in a peculiar way, is the fact that many sites added (highly fanciful!) illustrations of what this person 'might' have looked like when buried. Thanks for your observations, valuable as usual.
It's so frustrating that we don't know and have such tiny fragments to work with. At the same time, it's amazing how much those tiny fragments can tell us. Imagine what we'll be able to know in another fifty years!
Fascinating video. You're right about your title being clickbait. I wasn't subscribed but the title intrigued me when it appeared in my recommendations as did your channel name Welsh Viking...I studied in Aberystwyth and my first honeymoon was to the Lofoten Islands in Norway, so Welsh and Viking interest me, too. Archaeology throws up lots of fascinating puzzles. I've recently been interested in the site of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, a pre agricultural site, which is so mysterious and throws up more questions than answers.
Random question that idk if anyone has an answer to this, but has there been any Strontium Isotope analysis done on the bones? Just cuz I’m curious if the person was local to the area or came from elsewhere
Probably they had to. Otherwise, how would they know for sure that this person came from the Northeast?
@@CourtneySchwartz well… probably in that case
I can't tell you how much respect I have for your unflinching willingness to address these complicated and polarizing subjects. Your open mind and deeply respectful approach is both refreshing and uplifting - Not just in this video, but across the spectrum of the topics you explore. I'm thrilled to have discovered your channel, and look forward to more.
That’s awfully kind of you to say! Thank you very mich indeed!
Excellent avatar btw
The sickle really stood out to me too.
Thank you so much for talking about non-binary people. And that there is a whole history outside of the binary x
I'm really glad the (swedish) news article I read this from took a position very close to your points and was very good with mentioning the y'know... guesswork angle of the latter statements of what it could have possibly meant
The only truth is that skeleton is likely to have been intersex and they were buried with both a sword and brooches and that the second sword was probably added later.
Also wow. Sickle blade necklace sounds epic (but also like a threat... a really massive threat). A blade to the neck? Edge up to the artery
? Idk dude...
Clickbait titles are really good at what they do but for readers to then believe that the title is the truth of the content is just... no. Please update your reading comprehension if you find yourself valuing articles by their almost mandatory clickbait titles these days.
As serious a subject as this is and as well done as the video is (including the editorial notes clarifying some things you were struggling with a bit) I still cannot resist pointing this out:
9:26 "...we *sex* skeletons, and we often get it wrong." is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've heard all week. Out of context it sounds like a desperate plea to experienced necrophiles to show you what you're doing wrong. :)
But good job on clarifying beyond the daft media coverage of this, and for understanding the difference between sex and gender better than the original reporters did.
Just discovering your channel because of Max Miller over at Tasting History (and the Mari Lwyd). As someone who enjoys history but never made it a profession, “We don’t know” is my favorite thing to hear a scholars say, especially when that’s the start of the whole discussion. It means that after that we’ll be getting an exploration of information, and not a broadside of dry drivel. So thank you!
Another great nuanced and respectful video! It's always a treat to get your insight on this type of things! I'm a non-binary uni student and I often feel that attempts at "inclusivity" in certain fields of study, even if welcomed, lack the type of nuance you had when discussing this so yeah very validating keep up the greatness 10/10
Thank you for covering this topic with such class 👏
And your haircut looks fabulous ❣
Beautifully considered discussion, colour me intrigued. Much obliged for the further reading links - that's the rest of my evening sorted!
this is excellent. the on-screen text was of significant importance, worth filming yourself saying out loud and editing in. thanks for your contributions to understanding our ancestors.
Would the small scythe perhaps be a symbol for a brewer ? (Versus a standing scythe which would be for wheat?!)
If I remember correctly, "women" were often brewers in many cultures.....
Same with plenty of gathering work
I just wish more academics had the combination of humility and self-assurance that allows them to state: we.just.don‘t.know. In fact, politicians would benefit from taking that to heart too.
Lovely video as always, perfectly balanced between educational and entertaining.
BTW I‘m going to Norway for the first time this weekend, really looking forward to visiting the Viking ship museum. We‘ll also be close to Gudvangen and were thinking of going to the Viking Valley site - have you ever been, if so, what did you think? The website seems to be pushing the line of ‘we‘re not actors in costumes, we‘re real Vikings living our best Viking lives‘ which seems to make an interesting distinction between reenactors who are passionate about their era and people who are ‘just’ doing living history as a paid job.
I think everybody would profite from a little bit "we.don't.know."
Because we don't know.
Fascinating subject! Love the haircut Jimmy!
Thank you so much for the gentle yet firm correction (on making gender assumptions when we don't, and can't, know).
I saw that article and HOPED you’d make this video. And a great video it is.
Dear lovely clever person on the internets:
1. Thank you for your entertaining and informative videos, I've been binging a load of them and have learnt lots of useful and interesting things.
2. Please could you consider editing/correcting the subtitles on your videos? UA-cam makes these subtitles automatically but their algorithms are often inaccurate, especially with more unusual terminology or when you speak Welsh! It would really help those of us who sometimes find written language easier to comprehend than spoken.
Thank you!
P.S. UA-cam has some funny interpretations of your speech. For example, some of your Welsh language is subtitled as '[Music]' which is lovely, but 'Penannular Brooch' is subtitled as 'Penile Approach', which is perhaps a bit more dubious!
😆 Subtitles are such unintended comedians at times. Gotten many a laugh from youtube that way, especially foreign language content... totally useless, but hysterical.
An intelligent and clear video, your channel rules - finally someone with a profound and academic knowledge of ancient Norse culture, your enthusiasm is infectious. Doubt and recognition of ones holes of knowledge and acknowledging that things cannot always be known are the signs of true wisdom. As for the sickle, I am curious as to how many other graves were found in the area from the dame era and what was found in them...
Thanks for cutting through the tacky clickbait headlines. For me, the combination of the cheap brooches with the sword blade (low status objects with high status) is also very interesting.
swords are all expensive items even the cheaper kind
Brilliant video. As a new subscriber I'm fascinated by the world you describe. Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I'm hooked!
I just looked at the other grave goods and the sword blade seems to have been elaborately etched as well!
The first time I see this (hair)cut. Looking good!
I find it refreshing that someone who clearly like Welsh Viking know lots about subject he has expertise in is honest about people not knowing what this could mean . I think we should see things for what they were and not take modem day attitude
I'm here bcoz I want to be here... I love watching ur vids and find them ALL informative in a beautiful way. Keep them coming.... BTW nice hair cut Jimmy
My brain when immediately to Norse Getafix!
But seriously, thank you for a balanced, sympathetic, fascinating video - as always
PS - like the hair cut - looks very smart and suits you ^*^
"That's just part of the Human Condition"
Louder again for the people in the back
Also loved the video, I am also very curious about the sickle blade and kept going back to thinking of that
History is just interesting and I like hearing about things that I may never know
Great video, you're right about why i clicked, I was intrigued - had some trepidation as well as curiosity, but I had nothing to worry about! Fascinating, respectful, and willing to admit how much we don't know - this is how archeology should be presented imo :)
I delight in your academic attatchment to the facts. Thank you!
Oh the haircut looks so good!
I think what I appreciate the most about this particular video is you pointing out Archaeology 101: you don't assume.
Most of the Medieval history channels on UA-cam are decidedly conservative and have little if any sympathy for the LGBTQ+ community, which is fine. I want to hear different opinions. And I appreciate that regardless of politics, all channels are devoted to historical accuracy. It's just there are, from what I've discovered, not many medieval history channels that are open to what we now refer to as LGBTQ+ people in history, or for that matter supportive of LGBTQ+ people and modern feminism at all. So thank you for being an oasis in this community.
Great vid, and I, too, want to know what's up with the sickle, it's a bit odd. Wish I would have had you as an archeology proff, would have been fascinating fun. Thanks!
This story had passed me by until now, so it was very interesting to learn about it. I had, over the years heard about various graves where the grave goods didn't match the (archaeologists') expectations of sex assigned at death. And of course its fascinating to speculate how many graves were miss-assigned a sex based largely on the grave goods. If this body had been found only with a sword, or only with tortoise brooches would there have been enough interest, and money, to attempt the genetic analysis?
Of course intersex people have always existed, and here is one we can point to and speculate what effect that had on their life and death, and what a fascinating collection of clues. Genetic and isotope studies keep opening new ways to view the past, and it keeps getting even more interesting.
That sickle is such a puzzle! Thanks for sharing your archaeology brain. (I'm glad my postcard made it safely to you as well!!)
I deeply appreciate your approach to all archeological findings. There are a lot of people, usually with fabric or cultural finds that just paint an assumption about the individual(s) for convenient personal biases, but in reality, it's complicated and we may never know, which few people seem to want to admit. As you said, the best we can do is understand as best we can, but to make any bold assumptions is simply too ignorant when that's never the point. Love your videos, best wishes, have a lovely week!
Uh when the genetics got mentioned I was glue to the screen! I am NOT in anyway an expert in genetics but I've had some teaching in this during my educations time and I think it's facinating!
The sentence "We don't gender skeletons, we sex skeletons" is epic! Thank you for doing this video.
The sickle is the mystery I want to know, and it gives me an incredible amount of stress that we never will. Was it because they were murdered? Or were they holding it when they were buried? Maybe they were a very important person in farming community and were it was placed there to continue farming in the next life. That's almost certainly not right but I think it's a cool idea. Great video!
My first thought of the sickle was "don't come back". Sitting up with a blade around your throat would probably have been not that great haha. But then with the "shoddy" nice things in the grave, it does seem like they were respected. So maybe the death was an accident, or maybe the sickle was just reassurance about no hauntings, who knows. It's fun to speculate, even though we probably will never know (and we certainly do not know right now).
First video. I loved it. Very well thought out and respectful toward this skeleton and viewers.
Goddamn, I love this channel!!! Thank you!!!
And you're Welsh! Diolch!!!!
Oh - and this is one of those I wish I could give multiple thumbs up - x10!!
Fascinating! Thank you, Jimmy! I enjoy hearing about this with your archaeological expertise background.
Now I am obsessed with the sickle question! And the haircut looks great!
I know this is two years old at this point (as is the Intersex video). But I still wanted to reach out and say thank you, and your warmth and acceptance expressed in both videos is really, really awesome. I doubt anyone has failed to bring it up, but Kilnefelter Syndrooe is an Intersex condition recognized by Intersex rights groups around the globe. Also, as an intersex individual, these videos have meant far ore than you may realize to numerous people. Thank you, thank you, again.
Like your trim! Love that we just don't know, and can admit it.
However they identified, their gender was likely unusual. As someone whose gender is also unusual, I don't get to see people like me in history very often. I feel special kinship with them for this and it's delightful to know they existed. Thank you for the info.