Kayak Materials Poly Vs Thermoform Vs Fiberglass
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- Опубліковано 8 кві 2023
- My take on the three materials kayaks are primarily made of.
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Great video, as always. But it was amazing to see you spotting your implicit bias and the shout out to how they impact our decisions. Truly inspiring
Thank you. That sort of stuff is part of what my wife does for work so it is a common discussion point
I love videos like this. Composite is the path I chose. I'm still running a 2003 Seward Luna. The thing still looks like new. Also last fall I got my hands on a NDK pilgrim expedition. It is the carbon Kevlar weave. 42 lb and super responsive. One boat I would love to get my hands on is a 14 ft roto molded. Something I can play in the surf with and run down some of the rivers and not have to worry about it. Trade-offs to every style.
I really love the Sewards. NOLS has a large fleet of them, and I like them all…. And an NDK to boot! You are living large.
I live in Seattle and we are blessed to be an epicenter of boating as well as boating manufacturing. I recently purchased an used fiberglass Easy Rider Dolphin 15' made by a small company in Seattle (you had to order this boats to be custom-made for you). Originally I purchased this boat for curiosity since the price was too good to pass. I had newer 15' Eddyline. My Dolphin is just few pounds heavier, but is a beast. Paddling the Dolphin compared to the Eddyline is like driving Lexus compared to Toyota. They both will do the same job, but the Dolphin is made to last forever if used and stored properly. I sold the Eddyline and am just keeping Dolphin. I love it. In my opinion,. one can buy used fiberglass kayak for less money than a new thermoform kayak.
If you think the eddyline is the Toyota don’t paddle a rotomolded boat.
@@AdventureOtaku My first kayak was an old Old Town 10.5" rotomolded (made in 90s) and its was super tough and heavy (probably close to 60 lbs). It was definitely sturdier than newer thermoformed kayaks. Once I was on an alpine lake in Colorado, and as I was leaving I got across a woman I knew, so we got into chat such that I forgot to tighten the belts holding the kayak to the roof of my 2001 Subaru Outback. As I approached the first curve (going about 20 miles/hour since it was a curvy dirt road at over 9,000 ft altitude), the kayak fall off my car and it survived without any structural damage. I had the same kayak for another year, but then sold it when I moved from CO to Seattle since it was not convenient to drive 1,400 miles with a kayak on top of my car (imagine driving on I90 through WY and MT under windy condition). I doubt any thermoformed kayak would survive falling of a roof of a moving car. My guess my newly acquired Easy Rider Dolphin (made in 1992) would survive a similar experience.
Thanks for this video. I have paddled the poly boats and fiberglass kayaks that you have mentioned here in your video. I use poly type boats on creeks and rivers. I have also built 4 touring kayaks. One was a skin on frame baidarka with a cotton duct canvas skin. It was 17'9" long, 21" wide and only weighed in at 38lbs. I also built two stitch and glue plywood kayaks. These were the heaviest but paddled well on the water. My latest one I built was a cedar strip kayak by Nick Schade of Guillemot Kayaks. I built the Guillemot design from his book, The Strip-Built Sea Kayak. It only weighs in at 45lbs fully rigged with a rudder. I have been paddling this boat for 22 yrs now and it still looks amazing. It has been quiet the conversation piece. I have actually put two holes in it do to two separate incidents but I was able to repair it myself. The Baidarka is the fastest kayak I have paddled and is a whole different paddling experience. Price point is what got me to building my own kayaks in the beginning. Now I build them because I love the challenges they bring and the endless amounts of new people I have met over the last 30yrs of paddling. Thanks for your video and pointing out the pros and cons. This should really help new people to the sport in making a decision on boat choice.
I would also like to suggest to those who are new to the sport to try out different kayaks before committing to buying one. Look at reviews this is a big help. If one is feeling adventures they should consider building one. There are several companies that offer kits, plans and even full blown courses. UA-cam is a great way to learn allot of the skills needed to build a successful kayak your first time around. I built all mine from books , instruction manuals or VHS tapes. I didn't have you tube back then. There tends to be more maintenance to home built kayaks but its worth the effort knowing you built it yourself. The kits are cost effective and save allot of time on resourcing materials. Sorry for rambling so long.
No worries, all great advice. Thanks for stopping by!
Regarding UV breaking down materials, a very good reason to store your kayak indoors or otherwise out of direct sunlight (ie. covered somehow).
If possible, absolutely. I have never had that option. So my boat has lived outdoors its entire life. I will say my new Delta seems to be doing better than my old Delta did living its entire life outside. I may eventually be able to have my boat live in my new garage…It will JUST fit.
Don't forget Prijon with it's HTP blow molded plastic... owned two Prijon boats... stiffer, fast, won't oil can... last forever... And P&H has their Corelite X material .
absolutely, there are lots of variations on plastics but I was doing broad strokes of the three major methods. Just like there are dozens of composite variations and combinations. To compare them all would take hours.
@@AdventureOtaku how durable is the the material in the Delta and say Eddyline... I red some reports they do not do well in cold winter paddling... tend to get brittle ? I am considering one of these but having paddled mostly white water plastic boats and several plastic sea kayaks... is al to of money to spend on a boat that may crack... My two prior prijons are still be paddled by friends and one is about 30 yrs old now
Ive been paddling Deltas since 2009. From Alaska to Maine and down to NC. I paddle all year, and have paddled in floating ice. Ive paddled breaking through thin layers of ice. In my experience the cold had no real effect. I did repair one crack in my older delta but I am pretty sure that was a combination of age+living outside (the older deltas didn't have UV coatings down quite as well, my first one the interior severely discolored) and the stress of putting it on the roof of my van. I would rather drop my Delta on pavement/concrete (which I have done) then a composite boat. Is it as durable as your prijon? No. But I have had no real issues with thermoformed boats.
I have had the pleasure to paddle with Will and Joey. Amazing guys. I love hearing Ricks stories, very knowledgeable. Thank you, Brett for sharing the information and the shoutouts for Get Outdoors Pedal and Paddle and Turning Point Boatworks.
Thank you Laura, I hope we get to paddle together at some point.
Good overview. As you are no doubt aware, within each of the three there are different materials- eg in composite, kevlar, carbon fibre, fibre glass, etc, cloths, polyester and epoxy resins, which have various characteristics, advantages and disadvantages, and costs. For general use and trips I prefer the roto-moulded, primarily for it's robustness and with a little care these will last for decades. If I drop onto a rock or bash into a wall I don't need to worry whether or not I can get home or the cosmetics of it. For open water day trips with distance I love my kevlar / epoxy boat but am always conscious of scratching / chipping the gelcoat. These too with a little more care will last for decades, Myself, I'm wary of the thermoformed boats. The weight advantage is very attractive, but the material tends to work harden and crack at the various stress points over time as in use they too are constantly flexing, and under severe duress they will split open like a sardine can.
Ive paddled all three. Ive owned two of the three and paddled composites extensively with NOLS. Im gonna have to disagree with you on the "split open like a sardine can." It is got some flex but I would rather impact a rock with it than fiberglass boat. Ive seen cracks in thermoform and they are all pretty minimal with the exception of boats that were shipped improperly. and in those I suspect a fork lift was involved. Ive been paddling Delta thermoform since 2009 literally tens of thousands of miles. I have complete faith in the durability of those boats. And I think I covered all this in the video, but thanks for stopping by.
Thanks for the edit about how you feel, yhat says a lot about charter.
Thanks!
super instructif, merci bonne semaine
Merci mon ami
Great video, as always. Glad you hear you met up with Joey, on this. He does a lot of great work. Thanks for the shoutout.
Any time! Thanks for the support.
Thanks Will! I've got to venture down to your store soon. We have a lot of mutual friends!
I'd agree with you about old glass kayaks, I've got 3 seaward tyees that I got for $500 cad made in the 80s-90s that were in fantastic condition with gear, and all I've had to do is re-rig them.
Exactly. It’s why I am shopping for an older, high end, glass boat.
I recently picked up a necky arluck 3 fiberglass 1990s year for $100.00 great shape just needed a new front hatch seal Topkayker carry’s the older model parts. A Impex kevlar Montauk for $800.00 and wilderness systems Sealution for $350.00 fiberglass . Many kayaks are available on the used market. Today people want paddle boards so deals are out there. I forgot to mention an older necky whitewater kayak for free.
Yup, I did a video about buying used. The gear is out there you just have to look and be patient.
Great video and thank you for sharing your insights into the different materials used to build kayaks. This video has been very helpful to me and has given me better direction in what to look for in my first kayak...I decided a thermoformed adventure style is the best choice for me to take...now to decide on a manufacturer & model.
I am learning so much about this sport via your channel...thank you!
My pleasure. Thanks for watching. I think if you are doing thermoformed its either Delta or Eddyline. eddyline is making some amazing boats, but they don’t have a full blown touring kayak…
@@AdventureOtaku Have you paddled Eddyline and Hurricane kayaks in addition to the Deltas? If so, how do they compare in terms of quality of parts and construction?
I have paddled both in addition to the deltas but it has been a while. Right now Eddyline is making really beautiful boats. Finished well, great quality and construction, but they don’t really make a full blown touring kayak, the fathom is the closest to a touring kayak. On the other hand, I haven’t seen a Hurricane in a while, but the ones I did see weren’t finished well. Lots of little plastic bits inside hatches of brand new boats, rough edges. Just not finished well. They also don’t make a real touring kayak….
@@AdventureOtaku I was watching a Headwaters video yesterday and he demonstrated how thin the Hurricane boats' material is compared to Eddylines.
Im not surprised.
Great video! I recently bought a 3-layered poly kayak (I think only P&H and Valley are using this technology) and the difference is huge between "regular" 1 layer poly. Biggest advantage is that they are 15-20% lighter and are way stiffer than regular poly. A great compromise when you want to stick to poly.
For example, my model is a Atlantic from Nortshore (Valley) and weight "only" 57 lbs VS my previous kayak one that was 71 lbs (same lenght & width). Another great thing is that from what I've seen, 3-layered poly doesn't seem to be affected by "waving" deformation like 1 layer poly.
I paddled one of those…I am drawing a blank on which on it was, but it was a 3 layer and it was pretty dreamy….hmmm. Maybe my next boat.
Interesting take. My experience with composite boats has been that they're lighter than the other two. Most of the people willing to pony up for a composite boat will spend the few hundred extra bucks to get a carbon/kevlar layup rather than fiberglass.
My eighteen year old Epic 18X weighs in around 34 pounds after I removed the seat assembly and replaced it with a Bumfortable. If I had to guess, I've paddled over 10k miles in that one, so it is pretty durable.
Vacuum bagging can be done in your garage, but the heat curing part is going to be out the realm for most. If you think you'll make more than two boats, the savings in epoxy will offset the cost of vacuum bagging.
I'm looking to replace my old Epic and make something similar using a 2mm marine plywood veneer for the core and carbon/kevlar for the laminates. An 18 foot sea kayak using that should weigh in under 30 lbs. The materials (including outfitting) come in around $1200, but it'll probably take over 80 hours to build.
Kits for the Petrel Play in your video can also be had for under $2k that have pretty extensive instructions available in print and video. The estimated weight for that one in a wood/fiberglass layup is 31 lbs.
Building your own is a great way to move from a roto boat to your dream boat while saving several thousand dollars.
I have rarely seen carbon/Kevlar… I almost didn’t mention them until I spent the day at turning point boat works. If I put out the money for glass, I wouldn’t be able to afford the upgrade to carbon, but that’s me. The Epic’s don’t count - sorry. They borrow too much from surf ski and racing to be a fair comparison. Sorry. They are amazing though I have only paddled an epic once and it was sensational. Great boats.
@@AdventureOtaku If I spent 4 grand on a fiberglas layup and knew I could have had the carbon/kevlar for about 10 percent more, I'd probably be regretting it every time I picked it up. The initial 4 grand is the heavy lift with the next 500 bucks for a 10 pound lighter boat, but that's just me.
Epic did deliberately widen the 18X so it would not fall into the Fast Sea Kayak category for race classifications .
They don't edge well, and aren't very nimble. However their cruising speed, downwind surfing ability and 380 lb capacity makes for a touring boat that will eat up the miles. With the foam seat I use, it's surprisingly comfortable and stable.
Stellar has similar carbon/kevlar 18 foot touring boats that weigh under 40 lbs, while they're race boats are under 30 lbs.
That being said, I bought my Epic used for $1600 around ten years ago. That was about half the price of a new one at the time. The guy I bought it from paid around $2700 for it in 2005. If you don't break them, they hold value.
Sorry, I just saw this (UA-cam is bad about telling me about comment reply’s) I think I am looking for a high end touring kayak that HAS been broken. So I can document repairs… plus it will have an entry point I can afford.
Brett, great video again! This is a really big subject and you did a great job of pulling it together in a understandable way.
I will add this. Composite is often considered fragile which is not at all true, with a few exceptions. The ultra lightweight surf skis do need to be handled with care, We have done an immense amount of product testing to the point of down right abusive treatment. We have a paddler out in Washington State using his Basalt/Innegra Petrel Play like he did his rotomolded kayak. Sure it get scratched, just like a poly would, but he found, like I did, that the lighter weight made avoidance of rock interaction a lot easier.
Thanks Joey, and thanks for access and the knowledge. In terms of the fragile, you are absolutely right, when I think of “fragile” for a composite boat, I thinking of students on NOLS courses dropping a bow or stern of a fiberglass boat on rocks, which would do some damage and require an impromptu “repair class” which is the limit if the fiberglass work I have done. Do you feel like that sort of short drop impact damage is no longer an issue with more modern boats?
@@AdventureOtaku , damage is a term that is subjective for sure. Gelcoat damage is purely superficial. The heavier the kayak is, the more likely a simple drop can present a repair opportunity. Flexibility also plays a part in the equation. Some flex will fend off some major hits. For example, two boats, one is an infused fiberglass Petrel Play, the other a popular hand laid British brand. The paddler in the Play got surfed into a rock that was exposed from the wave displacing the water in front of it. She hit it at full steam expecting some major damage. She turned to warn the paddler behind and they also hit the same rock. The hand laid kayak suffered a puncture and required triage surgery on the beach. My infused Petrel Play was gouged at the impact spot, but no laminate damage. So the point of that story is that the relative durability will depend on the construction technique. Infusion is the strongest and lightest method and why we use it exclusively.
Another example of why is here. Pardon the amateurish video, we're getting better at it.
ua-cam.com/video/8L9gulZB5-c/v-deo.html
Thanks brother. I appreciate it!
Primary use is also a consideration, but that directly ties in to the pros/cons you outlined.
Roto is great for rock gardening and other hard use. I'd rather scratch up a P&H Delphin than bust up an NDK Romany.
Yes, absolutely. Completely agree.
I've got a kevlar/fibreglass Current Designs and a thermoformed Delta. I can't tell the difference on the water and they both look great. I can however tell the difference when I paddle a rotomould. The one advantage therma boats have is that they are the MOST rugged when it comes to the bottom scraping rocks-- way better than rotos. Really important if you paddle on Georgian Bay. I also dropped the Delta 5' off the top of my SUV nose first-- no damage, just a buff job. I once hit a rock really hard on a class two river in my kevlar/fibreglass kayak. Knocked a large hole in it but, very easy to repair as the fibreglass material was still intact.
Im surprised you don't feel the delta flex compared to the current designs. That has been my experience. In certain conditions you will feel it flex just a little.
@@AdventureOtaku That's true but, it only happens in rougher water when near empty. Even moderate packing negates that. I've got the latest Delta. My only complaint is my back hatch should fit a little tighter and leaks a little water in rough conditions.
Ive got the latest delta too, and my back hatch is too tight!
I come here seeking advice, just smoked a brand new fibreglass kayak on Australian river. Ignorance is suppose to be bliss😢. Great video👍
thanks for watching.
Composite boats can be the lightest of all hard shell boats, unless they are over built or the materials are badly chosen. In Fibre Glass for example, there are 2 types of matt, chopped strand or woven. The advantage of chopped strand is that it is easier to laminate complex compound curves, the disadvantage is a heavier boat because it takes up a lot more resin for the same weight of glass matt. Generally though, a kayak hull is not that complex that woven matt could not be used, though you may need to do a little cutting & overlap at the stem & stern, depending on design. You can also get a coarser woven cloth that gives a somewhat stiffer hull. In the 70s, I built 2 13 ft slalom kayaks in chopped strand. one of them came out at 40 lb the other 28lb. The reason for this difference is simply being scrupulous about wasting resin. Back in those days, elite competitors would use carbon/Kevlar boats that were 1/2 the weight of glass or less. So you can get extremely light weight with composite materials. However, it has been said that the longevity of a kayak is more a function of its weight than the actual materials. I do not personally know if that is true or not, but my 28 lb slalom boat that was my pride & joy as a youth, eventually became like papier mache from much use. To be fair, the heavier boat hardly ever got used once I had the lighter boat which lasted about 20 years of regular white water use before requiring major surgery. In the end, I repaired my favorited boat & the 2 are now about the same weight.
You can do a plywood stitch & glue, plywood & cloth skin, cedar strip, but the lightest construction that I know of is skin on frame. Skin on frame was a popular construction in the 30s-50s, but these boats did not last well. However skin on frame has come a very long way with modern materials & is much more robust & puncture resistant that the old doped canvas construction.
agreed on all accounts, keep in mind this video is aimed at new paddlers. A new paddler isn't going to build a boat.
Well, I did when I was 14 or so, never paddled or fibre glassed before that, but I did have some help. Back in those days, people were willing to give things a go. I knew people who built their own plywood sail boats in a their garage. It wasn't uncommon, it was the only way a working man could afford such things.@@AdventureOtaku
What about drop stitch inflatables? Thermoform is my next boat most likely!
I'll be honest, other than Stand up paddle boards, I have not paddled a drop stitch boat. For this video I really just wanted to cover the big three.
I prefer in all of that type kayak pungo 12.5 I don't like fragile kayak fiber glass and other stuff!!! Pungo I think is one the favorite for the people!!
The PUNGO 125 (is it 125 now? It used to be 120..) is an INCREDIBLY popular recreational kayak but for someone like me it doesn’t offer the performance that I need from a kayak. But a great boat.
The Pungo is currently available in these 3 sizes- 105, 120, 125.
120 and 125 seem very close together, is the 125 wider or have some other change?
There is a Pungo 140. I often see them for sale
@@AdventureOtaku The Pungo 125 is only 1/2" wider, but is taller (15" height as compared to the 14" of the 120) and 4" longer than the 120. It is meant for heavier people, and so has a 50 lb. capacity advantage at 375 lbs. over the 120.
I have a fiberglass/kevlar hull. It is a good compromise
Im sure it is. What boat is it? You normally see fiberglass OR carbon/Kevlar
@@AdventureOtaku it is Skim Braveheart LV XR. Yes it is worth it.
I have no doubt that it is worth it. Glad I asked, I wasn’t familiar with the brand.
Why not considering a skin on frame kayak? They are very light (30 pounds range) and therefore very easy to get up to speed or load on your car. They are in the same price range as a thermoform (you can also build one yourself in theory for a fraction of that price). I don't know about the durability or stiffness but they are probably very ok there too.
Ive paddled a couple of skin on frames. No thanks. Yes, light. Easy to transport. BUT, VERY flexy. no bulkheads, don't hold a lot of gear. Hard to pack. Just not for me.
I bought a used Seda ikkuma 17 foot full Kevlar layup for $1700 bucks pre inflation. Best value and performance boat I have. I scratch the crap out of the combming any tips to polish it out,
My guess would be sand and gel coat… but far from my specialty reach out to turning point boat works.
If you're talking small cosmetic scratches that just give it a kind if "dull" look, try buffing it with some marine wax. Meguiar's is a good brand, and if you do the rest of the boat I'd pick up a polishing pad attachment for your drill.
@@MillerSean thank you Sean, yea I only needed for my combming the rest of the most the boats are great. Am so happy It’s super light 40 pound. And in banana yellow.
About affordability: Craigslist is your friend. My boat, NC17, goes for over $4000 brand new. (got to pay tax and all that). I paid just over $1000 for it, drove 12 miles from my home, saw it, fell in love and the man I bought it from drove the kayak to my home. What a deal. 17 foot long boat that weights just over 36 lbs.
Deals can be found on a good used boat, ya just have to keep your ear to the ground.
Then, I bought a kevlar 17 footer, very used, for $250. All it needed was a seat. Can't beat that, but the kayak was heavily used.
agreed, but you have to be A) watching all the times, because the good ones disappear pretty quick B) wade through a sea of garbage boats and C) be ready to strike with cash.