Response to TheRedBook on Sauron, the One Ring, and Numenor
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2022
- In an “Appendices” video ( • Comment Responses | Au... ), TheRedBook ( / theredbook ) addressed a comment I left on this video about whether Sauron took the Ring to Numenor: • Númenor | Did Sauron H... . My comment built somewhat on my own video on a related topic: • How Did Sauron Get His... . The question ultimately is whether Sauron’s ability to corrupt or influence other minds is enhanced by his own Ring, and in this video I wanted to explain myself a bit further since I think TheRedBook’s responses to my comment showed that I wasn’t sufficiently clear in my point. Always love a good back and forth with another great channel!
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Very interesting response, I enjoyed it. There's quite a lot I disagree with here and I started writing a response but it was getting too long 😅.
I especially disagree about Sauron's power. His power on earth was enhanced when he carried the ring and he wasn't diminished when he didn't carry it. That's just what Tolkien says. I know near the beginning you talk about just not buying it but we may just have different views when it comes to where Tolkien explains some information? I don't use the Canon word for example and find the information in letters to be invaluable when it comes to this kind of topic since he could never fit everything into a narrative. It's also why I quote heavily from HoMe. It's like when Tolkien states that Sauron took the ring to Numenor but people still disagree with it. Personally, that kind of reading really confuses me since I just accept what Tolkien writes even if an explanation for it requires analysis. But the best letter for information on the One Ring is still 131 and it even talks in that letter about Sauron using the One Ring from his tower to rule his growing empire. Further text indicating he did use the One Ring to rule over non Ring bearers as it speaks specifically of being a god of his slaves through wielding the One Ring in Mordor.
I'll perhaps cover all of this in detail in either a response or a video about how Sauron used the One Ring.
But thanks for making a video to clear up the comment. I actually like that through clearing up the comment I disagree with your interpretation even more 😅. Makes things interesting though!
How about you both discussing this matter on a live stream?
@@Spielkalb-von-Sparta My thoughts exactly! Only YT deleted my comment suggesting the same... 😵💫
@@Lothiril UA-cam's automatic algorithms do that sometimes.
Whatever you want to do is fine with me. 😁
@@Spielkalb-von-Sparta Agreed. 👍
Although I think that Sauron did not need the ring to convince Ar Pharazon and lots of numenoreans to join the Melkor's cult and invade Valinor, it always seemed strange to me that he would separate from the ring for an unpredictable number of years. For what I understand about Sauron, he is almost one thing with the ring and seems strange and dangerous that he would leave it for no apparent reason in some kind of safe in his tower...
JRRT said "he *obviously* had the ring with him..." intending that it's a no brainer that he takes it with him...
How did I miss this originally?! I didn’t expect this, for some foolish reason!
Interesting, I watched the Red Book's video on this earlier today and this was a treat. Your explanation really narrows the disagreement and makes it more interesting. I think Steven's reading fits more with my impression of Sauron and the ring, as I always understood pre-ring Sauron to be less "effective" then post-ring Sauron, but only in the sense that the ring allows him to better focus his will (with part of that being the ability to dominate the wills of other ring-bearers). I'm not remembering where I got this idea of the ring as a focus, so it could just have been an impression. I would frame it as not more power per-se, but more effective use of his existing will. While I think its reasonable to infer that this would also enhance Sauron in non-ring-bearer will domination, just in the "focusing" sense, but I recognize your view as fully textually valid. I just always thought of the ring and Sauron as more than just a tool to dominate other ring-bearers.
AD: An interesting discussion. I’ve not seen the Red Book video, so can’t say I’ve seen all sides of this, but I WOULD ask a couple of questions.
What does the ring represent? What did Sauron have in mind from the beginning?
As I understand it, the Ring does not represent evil, but SIN. Evil is the result of sin; that’s why “The Marring of Arda” (all the harm, agony, imperfection, and hatred he introduced into the world) is chalked up to Melkor’s disobedience and refusal to subjugate his actions to the Will of Eru.
Sauron was “corrupted to sin” by Melkor (or was probably already oriented that way at inception, by design); he was even content to play second fiddle. But with the Big Guy dismissed to the Ether, Sauron conceived that HE could run the table. Out of shame and pride, he refused to return to Valinor to face Manwe’s music, but instead hid himself away in ME, nursing his anger and hatching his plan for returning to the top.
What better way to corrupt than to promise something that the weak-willed cannot see for what it is? Annatar (Sauron) tried to tempt Gil-galad and Galadriel with gifts, but they wisely refused him out of distrust. Celebrimbor, however, out of pride wanted to channel his inner Feanor. He allowed Annatar to instruct him in the art of ROP forging, but he was blinded enough not to see that his and Annatar’s motives were NOT in alignment. Celebrimbor viewed the rings (attitudes and behaviors crystalized into tangible physical entities) as enabling one to better concentrate the mind (the power and the glory) for “good”, such as preserving the beauty and order of Arda from Morgoth’s marring. These are God-like abilities, but the Eldar, even from the earliest days, were susceptible to thinking they could be even more than they were. Celebrimbor used techniques he learned from Annatar to forge the rings, but Annatar had no hand (it seems) in the forging of the three most powerful.
While Celebrimbor was making these, Annatar slipped off to Mt. Doom to forge the One, knowing that it would have the ability to see and subjugate other rings that used the same “codes”.
Annatar viewed the rings as a way of corrupting others to join him in sin, and the ultimate goal was to completely corrupt the Elves so they would worship him rather than revere the Valar and give their hearts to Eru. But when Sauron placed the One on his fingers, the three who held the Elven rings finally understood Sauron’s plan, and removed their rings.
The lesser rings were considered “essays” or rehearsals for the main event, and likely were “sold” to Celebrimbor as blessings that could be bestowed on mortals to aid them in mental development and as spurs to ambition. They would enable the holder to acquire wealth and renown, but not wisdom (kind of like promising Taylor Swift fame and monetary glory in exchange for her soul). Annatar’s intent all along, of course, was to ensnare. Annatar carried out his design by attacking Eregion, killing Celebrimbor, and seizing all the rings he could lay his hands on. He doled out the 16 lesser rings to mortals, with predictable results.
Another way to look at the ROP’s is to compare them to fiat currency. You “buy” people by promising them first-in-line access to the phony money, and corrupt them by promising them all the wonderful things money can buy, including power. Over time, it corrupts everything, including those involved in the nuts and bolts of the deception. It is not the money itself we should avoid, but LOVE of money (and power and pride) that constitutes the heart of sin and the root of evil.
Sauron also aged many millennia between the pre-ring era and post-loss, so it's not clear that you can attribute 100% of the change to the ring alone. Perhaps it was mere age, or the additional thousands of years of practice, or the diminishment of elves and humans making them easier to dominate over time, or Sauron learning more of the craft though intensive study and rest.
Presence or absence of the Ring is not the only variable against a static backdrop.
Fascinating video. I'd love to see you and Steven do a live stream on this; imagine where it might lead!
Here's some random thoughts that occurred to me while watching.
Is it possible than in the process of crafting the One Ring, Sauron increased his abilities in dominating other minds at the expense of some of his other abilities?
I suspect Saruman corrupted himself so much that he was a pretty easy mark for Sauron to influence and once his role as trying to play both sides against one another became clear, he was even more vulnerable as he became truly desperate.
What exactly happened to Sauron's ëala the two times his physical body was killed and he had to re-form himself? It looks like he was greatly weakened but eventually (and much more slowly the 2nd time) he was able to regain his strength. Was this a form of healing and if so from where did the energy for this come?
Was the amount of power an Ainu had when first created the most it could ever have and everything was downhill from there as we see so clearly with Morgoth? Or could an Ainu somehow regain lost power, even possibly exceeding what it originally had?
So long story short, Sauron transfered and transformed some of his own personal power into external power in the form of the one ring, and thus did not lose or gain any personal power so long as he had the ring, but did gain more influence over the other rings that were inherently linked to his own ring. I am curious of if any of the other ring bearers were present on Numenor during his imprisonment and the later events leading up to the fall? I have not had the chance to read anything outside of The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings yet (deff need to at some point). Also, on a side note, If all of the other rings were to be destroyed, would the one ring even give Sauron any benefit anymore? Or would he have to have more forged to be passed out? (I know doing so would deff be harder, if not impossible without direct external intervention, than the path taken by the fellowship to destroy the one ring due to Sauron still having the majority of the still surviving rings in his possession, but it's an interesting tangent thought for me).
One thing I have never completely understood is why, given that Sauron never touched or sullied the 3 Elven rings, and that the Elves hid them from him as soon as they realised he had forged the one ring, the power of the 3 rings also declined after the one was destroyed. I know the Elves themselves were uncertain as to the impact the destroying of the one ring would have ie whether it would free the 3 up to flourish again or whether their power would decline.. which in the event is what happened. Did Tolkien talk about this ring relationship anywhere and why the unmaking of the one had this effect on the 3.
The Three Rings are made with the techniques that Sauron taught, so it makes sense that Sauron making a Master Ring would mean the Three are bound to it as well.
It's not a perfect analogy, but if you think of the Rings like Computers Sauron put a backdoor in the BIOS and the One Ring is like a virus that exploits that backdoor. Even computers made by someone else would be affected as long as they run on the same BIOS.
Yes, interesting. The Elves themselves don't seem to be completely sure themselves 🙂
The elven rings were sympathetic to the other rings, existing alongside them and sharing the same power - Sauron.
A great discussion.
I think that Sauron could've taken the ring to Numenor, just to keep a close watch over it. Perhaps he used it to other things, other than dominating? Such as crafting and constructing? Which in turn, could in fact sway more Numenoreans to accept his counsels.
The problems remains that since Sauron's body was destroyed in the doom of Numenor, how could he take the One Ring back with him to Mordor to take up his Dark Lord persona?
@@str.77 Perhaps if we imagine that his spirit was in full strength at the time, which could mean it could function without trouble, even though his body was destroyed.
Unlike in his battle at Mount Doom, when much of his spirit itself was spent, and then his body was ruined on top of that.
But yes, that remains a question.
What do you think of Saruman's ring?
Celebrimbor created rings to preserve. Sauron created his ring to dominate the other rings.
Why would Saruman create a ring, presumably putting his power into it, if it didn't enhance his power? He seemed to not care about others in the world so wouldn't create rings for their benefit.
And the fun bit is those three rings were never touched by Sauron otherwise Galadriel wouldn’t have used Nenya. And even then their use of it drew his eye from the unseen realm. Sort of how Gorthaur could see Finrods disturbance in the force as it were when trying to conceal himself alongside Beren etc. such richness in Tolkiens books, so much so that we can talk about them forever more. ❤️❤️❤️❤️🥰🥰🥰
Is there a delay in the audio on my end, or is this the greatest ventriloquist act that has ever been done?
My feeling is that Sauron got a buff from the Ring to corrupting and dominating Valinor because he had already distributed some of the Rings of Men to Numenorian lords, and he wanted to maximize his ability to utilize them in his corruption of Numenor. The reason he wasn't able to just rely on his native abilities without the One was due to the nature of his endgame of getting them to invade Valinor. Given the daunting nature of the task, and the possibility that the Valar might take some sort of action to reverse his corruption of the Numenorians once they knew an attack was imminent, Sauron knew that he really had to have a very tight hand on Numenor in order for his plan to suceed. He might have been able to corrupt Numenor without it, but getting them to do the unthinkable was probably a next-level task.
I think a good example here is Sam, he manages to overawe the or s in the tower because he has the ring. Does it give him some new power? No it enhances what he has, it his fierceness in his desire to protect his master, which scares them. Gollum becomes a better sneak, since this is what he has. Sauron has the ability to dominate people in his nature the ring enhances this. How does he use his ability to dominate through the Palantir,it is not well explained in terms of Saruman, but Gandalf says that Denethor has his mind twisted by what he sees in the Palantir, this is controlled by Sauron. He is a master of psychology, you are right that he plays upon what is already there, he is a great manipulator. As well as being a powerful entity. I do not though think he took the ring to Numenor in order to be better at dominating folks, he takes it with him because like all who touch the thing he cannot bring himself to be parted from him. It corrupts and consumes also its maker. But I agree these things are not clear just from the books, the letter does not make it much clearer. Thanks and keep up the good work.
I like this interpretation a lot! Thanks for posting
Interesting debate! I think no Maia can become more powerful, but maybe more effective at a particular thing by the use of a tool like the ring. To me, Sauron did put a part of his power in that thing. A power that appleals to those that want more (like Saruman) but that it is tinted with Sauron's essence. He would lose power only when the ring gets destroyed or borrowed by another powerful being. How much would he lose? What would the effects be? I think it has to do with the power that he, like Morgoth, dissipated into controlling vast amount of beings. Sauron is particularly weak at that particular time because his ambitious control over those he manipulates for the war (even without wearing the ring). That is what makes the destruction of the ring so devastating for him. At least that's how I interpreted it 😅
As a DM of a Middle Earth campaign you do have to consider the nature of the Rings of Power and the mechanics/metaphysics of their creation.
I inferred that the Great Rings did two things:
1. Enhance the native abilities of the wearer with an eye towards subcreation.
2. Preserve the bearer and their Realm if applicable.
The Rings were theoretically to be used by the Noldor to fortify their Realms against time and the Melkor ingredient of Middle Earth, essentially creating little Undying Realms in Middle Earth. It is vaguely implied that the Noldor brought the personal enhancement tech/spells and Annatar brought the preservation aspect to the Ring project. The “plan” seemed to be that the Noldor would start with Eregion and eventually help heal all of Middle Earth from the devastation of the War of Wrath. This was not to be because Sauron is called the deceiver for nothing.
Part of making the One Ring to rule them all included being bettber at the Great Ring powers in addition to ability to dominate the other Ring bearers.
I do think your premise of Sauron not gaining additional strength from the One Ring is true of the Second Age. Sauron is whole with the Ring on his finger. No so in the Third Age when separated from the Ring. For the first millennium of the Third Age Sauron is so week he must flee East to regain his strength over time. After three thousand years, Sauron has regained his native strength and should he regain the Ring his victory would be complete and his power overwhelming to all of the inhabitants of Middle Earth.
I do think that the Ring enhances Frodo. He is more perceptive of the spirit world and has greater insight into the minds and motives of others as the Ring brings its influence to bear on Frodo over time. Despite Frodo’s determination to remain a good ole Hobbit gentleman in trying times, the Ring was grooming Frodo into becoming strong enough to get the itself back to its Lord.
Even if you don’t agree that Sauron can regain his strength equal to the Maia he was before crafting the One Ring, he still had the Nine and three of the Seven for most of the Third Age. Nine Rings for his nine black fingers. That’s at least nine times the power he needs to dominate Curunir Lan, a less mighty spirit, weaker than he.
I like The One Ring. Good channel.
It is said that Sauron “used the Ring” to finish the constructions of Barad Dur, is it not?
Something to that effect, yes. The foundations of Barad-dur are somehow connected to the Ring at least.
I can’t say I agree; the nature of the rings themselves seems to be strengthening one’s ability to influence and govern the lands and people around you. Galadriel and Elrond preserve Lorian and Rivendell and rule the last great cities of elves by the power of their rings. Gandalf is given his ring to foster hope and bring out the courage in others to do great deeds. The dwarf lords inspire their craftsmen to their greatest heights and show true mastery of mining to transform their mountains and resources. The 9 are given the power of fear. It would absolutely boost his powers of influence, even if it was just another “lesser” great ring. Plus with it being the master ring, if he’s giving out a few of the 9 while he’s there, which seems likely, he’d be gaining some powerful lords to his cause.
I don't think the nine rings are given particular the "power of fear" - this just the chief power that remains with these nine men after they turned into wraiths.
Just like the Dwarfs innate abilities were enhanced.
ive got a lore question. why wasnt glorfindel in the fellowship?
Because friendship was more important than “wisdom” as Gandalf put it. ;)
@@TolkienLorePodcast thanks you very much. heres another one. do you think with him taken out of the movie it sort of wrecks the whole witch king only being able to be killed by a woman? becasue arwen kills them all at the river at rivendell first.
A related issue is why Sauron "dies" when the Ring is destroyed if he doesn't need the Ring to mount a one-maia takeover bid on Middle Earth. If he could get along so well without it, why does destroying it matter to his continued existence (or continued access to Ea)? I don't recall ever seeing this addressed.
The answer, I think, is that the Ring is an example of a folklore motif called the "external soul." You put your "soul," your "life," your "death" in some external object and attacking your person no longer kills. The other big-name example in modern times is, of course, Voldemort with his multiple horcruxes. The most famous *old* example is Koschei the Deathless from Russian fairytales. Koschei is an evil wizard who, in some descriptions, looks like a standard D&D lich, nearly skeletal, but is immortal because his life is in a needle in an egg in a duck in a hare in a chest on an island in a lake far away. As a plot-motivator, Koschei fancies pretty young women, so Frodo and Sam -- er, I mean the Prince has to saddle up and go find that lake in order to rescue his princess.
So there is *one* other thing that the Ring does for Sauron besides letting him dominate other wearers of Rings of Power: even while everyone is attacking the main trouble-making end of Sauron, the big nasty in Baradur, he can never be really eliminated until the Ring is.
Very interesting perspective.
However, what about the 3 elven rings?...made in secret using the technique taught by Sauron? They certainly "buff the stats" of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond/Gil Galad... So Celebrimbor was THAT powerful to be able to externalize so much of his own power? He had mastery over water, fire, & air?... or at least enough to substantially buff the stats of the 3 Keepers?
Just curious. I'm not an expert, by any means.
It’s an interesting question but sadly we have little info on exactly what went into the forging of those rings. But they were made with different purposes which had nothing to do with dominating other wills so I don’t think it’s a problem with my “theory.”
@@TolkienLorePodcast
I wasn't trying to disprove, as it was just a curiosity.
I really like your theory, and definitely find it logical, especially in the stories given.
Perhaps Celebrimbor perfected a technique after forging the 9 rings of men and 7 of dwarfs, whereas he could have used the power of Arda itself.
Or... He got his hands on that sweet sweet silmaril/tree fairydust formerly known as mithril... as seen in RoP. Lol!
Wait, you mean one can talk with someone else about Tolkien without ending up insulting each other??? ...weird 😂
Of course one can. And it has been done for decades.
It could be that the One Ring acts a focusing device, such as is written in some fantasy-fiction of wizards'/sorcerers' staffs and other tools, rings among them. If it were for focusing, he'd be more potent with it, but not weaker without it. This checks off three of the four of the distilled lines that The Red Book leaves in the reply section of his main comment, leaving a needed explanation only for the fact that Sauron winds up weaker when the ring is destroyed. For that, him instilling part of himself into the One Ring would be necessary, though that part of himself in the ring could be what allows for him to so effectively focus through it. What we could be seeing a terribly flawed piece of technology, or at least one with too great a risk and cost to the creator.
This brings me to a question that had about Morgoth/Melkor. If Sauron uses the same approach in making the One Ring as Morgoth did when infusing some of his essence into the stuff of the world to more effectively corrupt what he became a part of (if I've phrased that properly), then wouldn't the destruction of Arda weaken him the same as the destruction of the One Ring weakened Sauron? It seems like a relatively short-sighted decision for a being on the god level, though I'll admit that the question requires details we don't have, such as how much he'd be weakened by the destruction of Arda, or whether the existence of the highest beings is already tied to the world they created anyway.
It could also be, though, that the nature of Sauron's connection to the One Ring is such that he's only harmed upon a crude severance of it, one which could have been prevented if Sauron unmade the ring himself. This would just require Morgoth to be arrogant enough to feel that he'd never lose control of the One Ring, soooooooo...that makes sense. If Morgoth has a similar ability to pull away from the interface with Arda and extract himself without harm, then he may have felt confident enough to protect Arda from sudden, catastrophic destruction (meteor/asteroid, mce, Tom Bombadill having a bad day...) and therefor reduce the risk of losing that part of himself to nearly nil.
I never felt Saruman was controlled or all that deceived by Sauron. Saruman had his on motivations and was working against Sauron in many ways.
Well, I think Saruman was deceived by Sauron in such a way that he (Saruman) though an alliance with Mordor was the only option (because Mordor was so strong, even without the ring) and also that he (Saruman) could share in Sauron's power once the war was won.
But sure Saruman had his own motivations and planned to double-cross - and displace - Sauron once he had the chance. The notion that he could achieve that was possibly an unintended consequence of that power-sharing deception.
I think that whatever about the Ring confers the ability to dominate the bearers of other rings could conceivably enhance the ability to corrupt others - the ring Gandalf carries after all enhances his ability to inspire hope and courage in others - it's not that hard to see the One Ring enhancing a more negative ability to influence others.
Joshua, you seem to be of the opinion that Sauron, having put some of his native power into the ring, has lost that power when he is not wearing it and is therefore greatly diminished. But in Letter 131 Tolkien states that Sauron is no weaker when he is not wearing the ring. 'To achieve the dominion he had, Sauron was obliged to lodge much of his own inherent power into the One Ring.[notes 2] On his finger it enhanced his power. But even unworn that power existed, remained aligned with him, and he could not be diminished, unless another seized it and became possessed by it.' Steven from The Red Book pointed this out to me as I admittedly did not know what to think of this before talking to him. What are your thoughts on this particular letter? Thank you!
Notice the “unless” phrase and the statement that the power of the Ring is “aligned with” him. Also the fact that he is effectively reduced to nothing when the Ring is destroyed points to the fact that he isn’t at full power without the Ring.
@@TolkienLorePodcastThanks for the reply. I'm unsure what you mean by highlighting 'unless' Fair enough the power is lost if another seizes and uses the ring, but no one does in the lord of the rings. The letter is pointing out that he's no weaker without the ring on his finger because the ring still exists and he's aligned with it. That power he put into the ring is only lost when the ring is destroyed, not when it simply is removed from his hand.
My point is that he doesn’t have “access” to the full power of the Ring because if he did, that “unless” makes no sense. It’s power being “aligned” with him is what let’s him survive and take shape again without it, but if he didn’t need to possess it then why does it matter particularly whether he regains it?
@@TolkienLorePodcast The point is that someone else can use the ring against him, and if he gets it back he has access to that enhanced power that Tolkien confirms he has. It's like a magnifying glass for his own innate 'power'. But after Sauron is bested in battle the ring still exists and so Sauron is not diminished, being aligned with it still. Sauron without the ring on his finger is no weaker than Sauron before he made the ring.
Sauron doesn't need the ring to be whole. Saying that is implying that he was vanquished in the battle of the last alliance BECAUSE the ring was taken from his finger. But that's not the case
I think that Frodo not only couldn’t achieve the ability to control the Ring (and other Ringbearers) but he was also on the path of becoming controlled by the It
It seemed to me that because he put the power that he had into the Ring, he did in fact buff his current stats when carrying the Ring. Maybe he didn't have more ability to dominate others with the Ring than he did before he made it, but he might have needed the Ring to have the same level of domination or ability that he did before he made it.
Of course, I also don't know that Sauron took the Ring with him to Numenor. It would make sense for him to leave it behind, as a 'safety' in case the Numenoreans decided to kill him. And we know that as long as the Ring existed, he had some power of his own without it.
I don't think you could control the nazgul because sauron has their rings and I think that's what gives him control of them. Do you think it's a coincidence that sauron and saruman's special ability is being able to influence the strong and dominate the weak?
My understanding of the Ring was that it "represented" the selfish desires of whoever bore it. Supernatural powers could only be wielded by Sauron. The fact someone that Gollum or Bilbo had it for a time is like if C-3PO were to suddenly become Emperor and be in charge of the Death Star. The ability to "ensnare" was built into the ring but that also makes the Ring betray Sauron and those who bore it after awhile since that literally means it has a mind of its own and its very to nature is to ensnare.
The Ring doesn’t betray Sauron though. The only thing it really “represents” (not sure that’s a good word here) is the lure of power.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Interesting, I always felt like the only way for the Ring to betray Sauron was to wait for him to make a mistake and have him lose it the same way Frodo did at Mt. Doom, by losing the finger it was thrust into.
Wouldn't you think that EITHER Saruman or Mithrander could have wielded the Ring; they, too, were supernatural? Gandalf feared to and resisted the urge becuse he knew it was tainted. Saruman greatly desired it and would have unseated Sauron if he could have acquired it. Neither Gollum nor Bilbo could control others because they had no natural ability, the training, or the inclination. Their stature limited their grasp. Even Galadriel knew enough to resist the temptation.
I don't think you're too far off in saying the Ring betrayed Sauron. He (himself) transferred his power to dominate other Ring Bearers to the Ring and fatally weakened himself as a result; you could say he was "hoist with his own petard". Whatever evil was endemic to the Ring came via Sauron, but evil does spread beyond its initial application.
@@kevinrussell1144 Exactly, I would go further and say what makes evil spread beyond its initial application is the creator starts off by coveting the power of the Eu Iluvitar or the god who created him. So when you look at any religion or Greco-Roman mythology you'll notice the symbolism of coveting the pro-creator, Zeus vs Kronos, Sauron vs Eu Illuvitar, Palpatine vs Darth Plageous, etc. Therefore, that envy and greed is automatically built into the One Ring to control everything. The only problem is evil can never undo history nor can they stop a rebellion and its eventual overthrow. The original Creator knows this, so he just sits back and waits for evil to self-destruct, make a mistake or intervene at the moment the Good can go no further.
@@genius2005 Pride and envy, there you go. Of course you're correct.
Actually, there is maybe one way in which the rings could increase their creators power. We see that magic users can get “depleted” and seem to need some recovery time. The rings don’t seem to ever get depleted and need a recharge time. They have a limited power, but it seems you can use them continuously without any need to stop and recharge them. So, maybe, the more you can rely on the ring to do the work for you to perform specific tasks the less you’re draining and having to recharge your own power.
Interesting discussion. You’re absolutely correct in that the Ring would not grant Sauron any additional power. I think what Tolkien meant was that Sauron would have taken it because he would have wanted to be at maximum power. He didn’t know how difficult the task might be and it would be foolish to leave the better part of his power sitting in Mordor. It may not have actually been necessary especially given the fact that Numenor was already falling under the shadow.
The problem with your argument about him controlling Saruman is that, I think, you’re underestimating the power of the palantir. It’s not just a viewer, it establishes a telepathic link. Pippin was immediately and completely under Sauron’s control the moment he looked into it. Gandalf mentioned that Pippin saved him from making the mistake of looking into it himself. It doesn’t seem like Sauron was able to control Saruman immediately and recall that Sauron is well practiced in the art of dominating others whereas we don’t know if Saruman has any experience with fighting against that level of mind control.
Lastly we don’t know how the power levels work with the Maiar. They definitely aren’t equally strong. Sauron may be, inherently, 2 or 3 times stronger then Saruman. Even at half or a third strength he may still be Saruman’s equal. And that brings us to the other “bonus feature” of the Ring which Tolkien discusses a bit in Morgoth’s Ring. It binds Sauron to the physical world. To borrow a term from Harry Potter, it’s a horcrux. I almost think Rowling had LOTR in mind when she came up with the idea. Destroying the Ring didn’t just make that power unavailable, it severed his tie to physical Arda. Just as its destruction unmade the foundation of Barad-dur, once he created the ring, everything he did depended on the Ring’s continued existence including his own physical form.
I do g think we have any reason to believe using the Palantir makes you more vulnerable than just being in the same room with Sauron.
@@TolkienLorePodcastUsing a Palantir while another one is under Sauron’s control is basically the same thing as putting yourself in a room with Sauron, at least mentally. We do know they form a telepathic link because he speaks directly into Pippins mind. I think his use of the Palantir, plus the fact that he was already conceited, overconfident and obsessed with power, made it far easier for Sauron to control his mind than it should’ve been.
I do think it’s a misreading of Tolkien’s letter to state that he said Sauron “needed” the Ring to corrupt Numenor. What he meant was that Sauron would, obviously, have chosen to take the Ring because it contained the better part of his power and it would’ve been foolish not to take it. The Ring would not give him any additional abilities to control minds. But not having it would make him weaker and we’re not just talking about corrupting one wizard he’s going to try to corrupt an entire Island with hundreds of thousands of men and women.
I definitely think this would be an interesting topic for a livestream discussion. I think both of you are mostly correct but disagreeing on some of the finer points. Which is understandable because I don’t think Tolkien himself had fully thought this through when he wrote LOTR. I think Tolkien’s letter was him coming to the realization the Sauron, obviously, must have taken the Ring with him whether or not he actually needed it. It wouldn’t have been in Sauron’s nature to willingly limit himself. He’s the kind of guy that would sneak a rocket launcher into a gunfight.
When Celebrimbor made the rings, what were they intended to do?
He started out by making lesser magic rings... As prototypes and proof-of-concept pieces. And this is a craft that he and Sauron develops toghether, that didn't exist before, and hasn't been reproduced later, right? (Although I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that Saruman might have tried his hand at it.) The Seven and the Nine were the culmination of ringcraft, the Three were Celebrimbors own private masterpieces, and the One was Sauron hijacking the whole project with a controlling backdoor into all the other rings. Is that correct so far?
Invisibility might be one thing that a lesser ring could do, just judging from Gandalfs reactions in The Hobbit. Seems reasonable to me that the dwarf rings and the nazgul rings might have had individual special abilities. It also seems reasonable that they would have originally worked as stat boosting force multipliers. I don't think that Celebrimbor deliberately crafted rings that would grant deathlessness to mortals - that doesn't make sense, why would he do that? Unaging for humans must have been a side effect or something that Sauron added to the mix.
But Celebrimbor certainly wasn't trying to make wraithifiers for mortals, or dwarf corruptors, or anything sinister like that. He was trying to make tools that other people could use to wield power in the world in positive ways. The Three have powers to avert time, to protect beauty, to kindle hope and inspire people, and other nice things like that.
I don't think anybody would have accepted a ring from Sauron with the sales pitch "you will not age normally, but instead you will slowly turn to an unliving slave to my will". Well, maybe some people, but not the ambtious and clever types that he wanted as servants. There must have been other benefits.
The intention behind the rings was preservation, the prevention of decay, and the enhancement of one's own natural powers. This seemed to be how Celebrimbor intended for the rings to work. I guess the enhancement of one's natural skills or powers would be a good enough selling point for Dwarves and Men - Dwarves started hording more gold with it, Men became even more powerful kings.
Turning Men into wraiths surely wasn't intended by Celebrimbor, but he most likely didn't intend for the rings to be given to Men. If preservation is one of the powers of the rings, amd it preservers the "life" of a mortal man until he becomes a wraith that could be an unintended side effect that Celebrimbor didn't even consider because it would never be an issue for an Elf.
However, I don't think that was necessarily the reason for this sode effect. Tolkien wrote that Sauron corrupted the rings after he got them and before he gave them to Men and Dwarves, so the negative side effects are most likely due to Sauron's tempering with the rings.
And who knows, maybe Sauron even promised eternal life to the human kings that he gave the rings to. They desired to be immortal, so they took them, not knowing what form of immortality the rings would give them eventually.
Dwarves don't become wraiths as easily, so giving the rings to the dwarves didn't really do anything for Sauron. That's probably why he tried to get them back. Makes you wonder what other plans he had for them that he never put into motion...
Sorry for the lenght of this. 🙈
@@Lothiril Good points, agreed
Sauron perceived that Saruman was already corrupted, and just needed a “little nudge out of the door”.
He just had to let Saruman think HE could overthrow Sauron and become the Dark Lord himself.
TL: I like your explanation regarding Sauron’s Ring, but mainly because I suspect (of course, this is only worthwhile in this crazy discussion of Magic Rings) he would have little NET gain since he made the ring and placed some of his “power” (will to dominate/corrupt others) into it. The only upgrade would be from using it and taking advantage of whatever organizing abilities it is able to “focus”. But I am not sure this applies to all bearers.
I’d look to LOTR (as you have) for guidance as to how the rings “work” in JRRT’s world. I put more stock into that (and the Silmarillion) than in a letter that runs crosswise to some of this actual usage. I also like your quote reminding us that the rings only grant power commensurate with the measure of the possessor.
Why does the One Ring (when being worn) make Gollum and the Hobbits invisible? Because we also know that the Riders are also invisible, we can guess that ALL mortals are rendered invisible by a Great Ring. And because these were not made by mortals, anyone wearing, or even possessing a GR (Great Ring) receives “upgrades”. Frodo sees Galadriel’s ring even when he is NOT wearing his, while Sam does not. When Frodo is wearing his ring, he can clearly see the Riders, and his perception and senses are heightened, so yes, he is gaining a benefit that he did not have pre-ring.
Immortals (Gandalf, Galadriel, Sauron, Elrond, and even Tom B.) are NOT rendered invisible by a GR. The holders of the Three at the time of LOTR (Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel) would, it seems, receive some kind of upgrade since they did not make the rings. Celebrimbor (surely a great but deceived and ensnared Elf) by default placed some (much?) of HIS “power” into the rings. Perhaps that is why he was relatively easy to kill after the 3 were no longer worn or used after Sauron “declared” the One by wearing it.
It seems reasonable to me that Sauron took his ring with him to Numenor and he probably wore it. Since he was swallowed into the abyss at the destruction of Numenor, his body was not available to plunder, so the ring went with him. How does that work, one wonders?
The net effect of this first death on Sauron was not to kill him “all dead”, but to render him hideous. He could no longer appear as Annatar the Beautiful.
Recall that Gandalf received his ring from Cirdan upon his advent into ME (I believe I have this correct), so he had the Ring while fighting the Balrog. Although he “died”, the ring stayed with him and he was resurrected, presumably by Eru. All of the Three could (again) be worn at this time, since Sauron had lost the One at the end of the Second Age.
I initially thought that Saruman was a plot hole, wondering why he, as head of the Order of Wizards, rather than Gandalf, did not receive the Red Ring, and how he was able to overcome Gandalf when Gandalf visited him shortly before Frodo left the Shire. The answer was that Saruman, as a self-taught Ring aficionado, had learned the art of ring forging and had made his own ROP, #21. He openly wore it at that meeting, and his robes were no longer white, but a kaleidoscope of hues. I think it curious that Saruman did not confiscate Gandalf’s ring, but perhaps he couldn’t without killing him, and he was not easy to kill? Is this a plot hole, or did Gandalf not receive his ring until after he regenerated??
I find it more amazing that Gil-galad and Elrond (and two rings……Galadriel is not mentioned as being present; perhaps she was instead smoking cigarettes behind the barn?), and a host of Elves and Numenoreans, were able to take down Sauron AND his Ring, and an army of orcs and evil men, and return him to sender. IF they had tossed the ring then, the story would have been VERY different, but we know it COULD NOT be that way. The music said otherwise.
And your comment about Sauron being able to reconstitute himself (since the Ring was NOT destroyed, merely misplaced), means that Sauron was diminished but not TOO much by either his first or second misadventures. He was still very powerful, and his competition had also slipped a bit through the wearing away of time. Three times were the charm, however.
I agree with much what you're saying except:
1. While it seems reasonable that Sauron took the One Ring with him to Numenor (but that would place the ring among the spoils) there remains the problem how then Saruon could have taken the Ring back to Mordor to take up his Dark Lord persona again, if his body was destroyed.
Now, you argue tahat his body wasn't actually destroyed but just rendered hideous. But I cannot agree with that. The doom of Numenor was the worst cataclysm in Arda's history, given that half of the world was removed, the rest turned into a sphere and Numenor sunk in between. It was worse than the War of Wrath given that God Himself intervened, not just the Valar.
I don't think Sauron's body could have survived that only to be killed "all dead" a few years later by Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur, a comparatively minute force.
I'd rather think that Sauron's body was destroyed and all that was left of his power was the Ring that he had hidden back in Mordor. Hence also, the effect when he was separated from that power first by Isildur and finally by the Ring's destruction. It's not that Sauron ceased to exist with that - he just utterly lost his power.
2. In contrast, Gandalf died in his fight against the Balrog but he wasn't involved in some cataclysm as Sauron was. His "sending back" could just be his spirit re-entering in his body, lying there in the Misty Mountains, with all wounds healed and his powers upgraded. (I don't anyone imagines that after his death, Gandalf's spirit re-embodied in Valinor and again set sail for Middle-Earth to arrive just in time to meat the Three Hunters.) And if that is so, the ring was right there with him.
3. I never saw a plot-hole in Saruman overpowering a ring-bearing Gandalf. The Elven Rings were more nurturing and defensive in their powers and while it might be asked why Gandalf didn't use these defensive powers to block Saruman, he might have just been surprised. After all, in the book we do not get such a lengthy duel with Saruman smashing Gandalf into wall after wall, as the films depict it (and no second confrontation on top of the tower at all). He is merely detained in Orthanc. Saruman might have made a ring of his own (outside of Sauron's ring system) but Gandalf also was very secretive about his having the Ring of Fire. Using it might have given it away.
4. You say with Gil-Galad and Elrond two rings were present at the War of the Last Alliance. Apart from the fact, that they couldn't use these rings against Sauron while he still held the One Ring, I am not so sure: didn't the two actually hold the same ring consecutively. Elrond certainly got the Ring of Air from Gil-Galad.
@@str.77 You might be right about the destruction of Numenor; others do tend to agree with you, but his body was not spoiled (as it was in the Last Alliance dust up). Since you can't REALLY kill a God or Angel "All Dead", there may not be much difference between the two events, although Eru DID drop the ugly stick on Sauron after deep sixing him on Star Island.
In both cases, Sauron was able to reconstitute some of himself because the Ring was not destroyed, but was on the riverbed, on his person, in some little guys pocket, or back on the mantle place in the Mordor homestead. IDK.
I think I misspoke mentioning Elrond and Gil-galad, and implying that constituted two rings. Cirdan was there, too; that was the second ring. Elrond inherited his ring from Gil, and, of course, Mithrandir ultimately received his as a gift from Cirdan.
@@kevinrussell1144 Who says Sauron's body wasn't spoiled - and if so, could Sauron know that begorehand.
You cannot kill a divine being - but since he took on a body you could kill that.
After his body was destroyed in Numenor, his power and effective existence depended on the Ring.
PS. I'd appreciate it if you didn't mutilate names like Gil-Galad's. This isn't some US pulp comic book but Tolkien.
@@str.77 No one SAYS or doesn't say whether his body was spoiled, but since everyone else was drowned or gorked with him, the only creatures available to "spoil" him were fish or crabs, and they wouldn't give a flip about the ring. Gandalf (apparently) didn't lose his ring when dumped in the water, roasted, or turfed by the Balrog, so why should Sauron (assuming he had it with him?).
AND when "Gil" and Ele killed him and Isildur scored the ring, Sauron no longer possessed, wore, or controlled it, yet he wasn't dead. Only his physical shell was destroyed. His spirit, independent of the Ring, managed to do just fine for another 3K years. How do you explain that, Ajax?
As to me shortening Gil-galad's name and trying to shame me, take a hike and look in your own mirror first. His name is Gil-galad, NOT Gil-Galad; look it up in your goddam appendix or the Silmarillion and show some respect.
@@kevinrussell1144 So you are just assuming tat he wasn't spoiled and refer even to the wrong time. I was referring to when he was captured by the Numenoreans.
Your outbursts only show what kind of a man you are. You are the one being disrespectful and you are trying to deflect from your disrespectful attitude by a silly counterattack, Mr Rusel.
In a way…. You just described what actually happened with Saruman.. I think Gandalf is attributing too much credit to Sauron, Saruman sure thinks he is playing Sauron and never truly works himself to further Sauron’s will. He needs the ring to be free of the fear of Sauron. But that is always his goal, not the will of Sauron and them afterwards his goal is vengeance.
What if Sauron had a few of the 9 rings and gave them out to Numenorians. Or perhaps he had a few of the lesser rings of power to hand out to ArPharazon and his henchmen to dominate them.
Just watched your video analyzing whether Tolkien had a plot hole regarding Gandalf's knowledge of Bilbo/Frodo having the one ring. There is one thing that you didn't consider. Gandalf told Frodo he knew that the ring Bilbo had extended his life, and that only the great rings had that power. That eliminates the possibility of it being one of the lesser rings. So yes, still a plot hole. Three and Nine were accounted for. Seven were also, as they were lost to dragons or stolen.
If we assume your premise, Sauron would still be diminished anytime he didn’t have his ring in his possession, so he would still have needed to have his ring with him in Numenor in order for his will and power to have its greatest effect.
Yes, but I don’t think he needed that for his goals because he just needed to be smart and take advantage of their preexisting doubts and fears.
@@TolkienLorePodcast perhaps, but we know the ring itself wielded its own kind of influence over people regardless of whether that person possessed a lesser ring (what happened with Boromir, for example). I’m not saying that Sauron wasn’t ~*capable*~ of corrupting the numenorians without the ring, but that it definitely would have made it a lot easier to do so. With the ring, Sauron’s allure, power & influence were at his fullest potential and the people were at their most vulnerable and receptive due to its corrupting power
Sauron has access to the power in the Ring even if he doesn't possess the Ring. That's why the destruction has an instant and disastrous effect on Sauron - if Sauron didn't have a link to the Ring/access to the power in the Ring its destruction wouldn't cause Sauron's ruin. That's a necessary element for the story of LotR.
So Sauron is at "100% power" with the Ring in the Anduin or elsewhere. I think this is an important element you're missing - it means that if Sauron getting the Ring back makes him more powerful (beyond the control of the other Rings and his only lose conditiona in the War of the Ring becoming impossible) the Ring has to enhance him while worn, like a tool or focus of domination.
And he has even more power with the Ring, at least that's what we get out of HoMe X and the Letters (though I understand you're making the point that those explanations don't fully follow what we read in LotR). I always understood that as a desirable side effect that can exist alongside the ability to dominate the other Ringbearers. I'd have to check if Sauron being more powerful with the Ring is in LotR - if that is the case, it would imply that Sauron gains additional power from wearing the Ring (because he is at "100%" as long as it exists anywhere else in the world; he has full remote access unless someone like Gandalf wrests true ownership of the Ring away from Sauron or the Ring is destroyed, which both have the same destructive effect on Sauron).
As for Saruman, I don't think he was all too hard to influence. Yeah he's a Maia, but that doesn't mean he's harder to influence than Denethor or Pharazon - especially in the Istar form he's in. And he isn't really dominated, as he betrays Sauron - just hopeless that Sauron can be defeated without using the Ring.
If he had access to the power of the Ring the Elves wouldn’t be able to use their rings. Unless you mean not the specific power wielding the Ring brings, but just his own native strength inhabiting it. But even there I don’t think that’s right because if that were true I don’t think it would have taken him so long to regain strength after the Last Alliance.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yes, controlling the other Rings is specific to actually having the One Ring.
Regaining a bodily form takes Sauron time - it seems like he has a more difficult time of it every time it happens again. That he put most of his power in the One Ring actually helps him with the recovery process, even though it's at the bottom of the Anduin and he's off in the East.
But I think the most crucial point is still that there has to be a link between Sauron and the One Ring for the story of LotR to work at all, even without additional sources. If Sauron has no access to the power inside the One Ring anyway, why does it make a difference whether Frodo has it or whether it's destroyed? As soon as the Ring is destroyed, Sauron loses most of his power - where else could that lost power have been other than the Ring?
The destruction of the Ring doesn’t take away his power so much as his being. He’s reduced to a shadow of his former self.
@@TolkienLorePodcast But nothing of Sauron's "being" is in the Ring. He puts a lot of his power and his will into it - not his soul, which is not divisible. Sauron is always in one location only, and it's not in the Ring. I've never come across a part of Tolkien's works in which he described Sauron as putting his "being" into the Ring - and if he isn't, why would the Ring being destroyed destroy his being?
We are told Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, and as soon as it is destroyed Sauron is extremely diminished. The logical conclusion (which is confirmed by Tolkien in additional source material) is that the power in the Ring is connected to Sauron still, that it is useful to him. It's also the best explanation for why the Ring helped him recover - why Sauron will always be a problem if the Ring isn't destroyed, as the Council of Elrond discussed when considering just tossing the Ring into the sea. Even only considering LotR and not the additional sources that confirm it, this reading makes the most sense to me.
Poor choice of words on my part. Yes it’s his power, but in a way that’s pretty integral to his existence. With the Ring’s destruction he not only can’t control his minions, he lacks even the capacity to “regenerate” beyond a mean (small, petty) spirit of hate. In that sense it’s not just “energy” or “power” but something of his very essence in the ring.
The three Elven rings had inherent power, implying something about the creation of magic rings gives them the property of endowing their wearer with power. If this is true of the three couldn't it be true of the One?
The Elven rings do fundamentally different things though. Plus none of them were worn by their maker.
I seem to remember (and frustratingly can't quite put my finger on where !?!) a comment made by Tolkein in his extended writings.
I'm paraphrasing but I think Tolkein said something along the lines of due to the ring being made from the 'Morgoth Element' (gold) it actually enhanced Sauron in ways that Sauron himself did not anticipate while he wore it?
I don't think that Tolkein meant that it made Sauron more 'powerful' as such but perhaps amplified/magnified certain traits and abilities to which he was already practiced or disposed?
Just a thought...
When His Spirt arose from the Abyss Borne on a Dark Wind back to Baradur.His Rage was Not less.For Never again can He Make a Shape Fair to Men or Elves.His Power is Terror Alone And He is Black and Burning Hot.With a single Yellow Eye wreathed in Flame."
Hi there, I mostly agree with your arguments but was a little appalled by your choice of wording that Sauron would be able to "dominate" the will of Saruman. In my understanding in Tolkien's world no one can actually control someone's other will. Influence and manipulate it, yes. Gandalf never implied that Saruman was under direct control of Sauron. It has been Saruman's own aspirations which made him a target for those manipulations and lead him onto the "dark" path.
Sauron didn't need his ring for this, his mastery of deception have been sufficient enough. So yes, I don't think he needed his ring in Numenor to accomplish what he does. He just needed to fire up the hearts of those people against the Valar. The dissent has already been there.
Sauron had more power at the time of Numenor. His power is greatly reduced at the time of LOTR.
**Edit**
Whoo ! Sorry 😬 this got LONG !
😱
But hopefully to good effect
🤔 😐 🙄 LOL!
Ok. I am commenting early, in order to either address or ask Questions of issues raised by the good Professor's written word.
So, the first Real issue is the
Ring's/Rings' ( 3 Elven as well)
ability to influence things that...aren't also wearing Rings.
Depending on how far you dive into Tolkien's...I have to call it, side writing, (Unfinished Tales etc.)
I offer you this to alleviate your misgivings concerning such influence:
Galadriel was able to keep even Time at bay
(to an extent)
due to her Ring.
Gandalf was able to Influence People to Take Heart and even weild a certain power of will on their behalf to lift the illusions of darkness from them.
Now, This gift was EVER Olorin's gift, to bestow on those in need of it,
but the Ring boosted that power for him in ways that allowed him to hold his oath of not pushing Sauron Power for Power.
(Not really an idea that Olorin cherished,
in fact, we know, that he really wanted no part of the whole Istari gig to begin with)
But Certainly Elrond, Galadriel And Gandalf did in fact wield a certain influence over others as well as the elements, as a direct result of the Elven Rings,
so...would Sauron's Ring do any less?
Hopefully, I have alleviated any doubts for you concerning, well, at least a possibility of Sauron's ring in Númenor.
(Honestly I still don't know)
Now I also have a couple of issues.
Did he Need the ring in Númenor?
Well, since Those of Númenorian blood were powerful enough of mind to wield the Palantiri,
And...since Sauron passed most of his own will into the ring (and very recently) he may or may not have had enough left within himself to Dominate such powerful Númenorian minds and wills, *Without the Ring*
He may very well need the ring in Númenor to apply his will to Dominate others, a will he wouldn't have any more because...it is inside the ring at that point.
Like giving blood and having your body reproduce it, but...your body WILL reproduce it. according to the good Professor Sauron gave far over half of his supply into the ring to Dominate the others. I imagine it takes time to replenish a spent spirit. It would seem
(As I always took it.)
That Sauron's power increased without the Ring. To the point of being able to re-establish Mordor and Baradur as well as full command of his armies and Dominate Saruman.
Apparently he can replenish his power, but that part held by the ring seems to be the core.
I am Absolutely NOT Married to any idea in either direction save what JRR wrote, if however, he was thinking of it in the possibilities that I just spelled out,
then there is a good chance that it was not just latent rationalization in Tolkien's letter, but rather,
as he had conceived it.
It's only Food for thought.
😉👌
What makes you think Sauron's "will" is in the Ring?
Steven has made a video where he dealt with the issue of Sauron's power and his possessing the Ring. He said that Sauron had access to the power as long as it wasn't destroyed, so I guess that is why he could dominate Saruman's will with the Palantir, but that should mean he could have done the same with the Numenorians. This is Joshua's point and it's a great one.
@@Enerdhil
Again, I think of it like giving blood. Since Sauron had put so much of himself into the ring so recently (at the time-line of this show) there may...or may not have been enough left within himself...to control or manipulate others without it.
(At this point)
However as I said: I'm not married to the idea, it's just another possibility.
😉👌
Did sauron take ring to numenor.
Yes he could not part with it.
Tolkien said he did take it. I wish he hadn't taken it.
@@Enerdhil Undoubtedly he did. How he got it back from the drowning of Numenor is just a question of mechanics.
@@joseraulcapablanca8564
I just don't like the idea of poltergeists in Arda. Spirits physically interacting with the world is problematic, IMO.
@@Enerdhil I think the ring must exist, like the wraiths “in both realms.” Since he possessed the ring under the sinking of the isle he continued to do so in both realms, Isildur took it from him, thus dispossessing him in both realms. The ring could not be destroyed in the flood. All sounds logical to me, however it is not written of so one can only speculate.
The One Ring allows Sauron to focus and externalize his will to dominate, just as the Three are designed to focus the will to preserve. It doesn't neccessarily make him "more powerful," it allows him to direct his inate powers better. He can still dominate minds (or at least influence them) that he has direct contact with, as he does through the Palantir. The ring would would give him "spooky action at a distance" (to borrow a line from Einstein). I don't think Sauron would need the ring to further poison Ar Pharazon, who was already on a path of darkness before capturing Sauron. Pharazon would be the type to visit his Maia prisoner, if only to gloat, and this allowed Sauron to get into his head.
Red Book makes a compelling point about Sauron "hiding" the ring (the way the elvee "hid" the three), but I'm not entirely convinced he would have brought the ring to Numenor. Especially considering that it's hinted Sauron actually surrendered willingly to stoke Ar Pharazon's ego. I just think Sauron didn't suspect the wrath of Eru to destroy Numenor (and the Divine presence at Numenor's destruction may have played in role in why Sauron lost his ability to take different shapes afterward).
Also, I'm wondering if Sauron guided Saruman in ringcraft, and thus found a way to exert more control over him that way. Sauron did, after all, possess the Nine, which might mean he wore them as a temporary replacement for the One. Granted this is conjecture, as it's never really explained where the Nine are exactly (whether the Nazgul still wear them, or whether Sauron took them back).
Anyway, in my head-cannon, Sauron did not bring the One ring to Numenor. I think he was still playing a long-game at this point, and wouldn't reveal his trump card.
I agree. There is no way Sauron needed the Ring to manipulate the Numenorians. Also, I think the Ring is purely powered by evil, so if he used it in Numenor he would have had the Temple built shortly after he was advising Ar-Pharazon and all of his focus would have been on getting Numenorians to kill each other, i.e. a civil war with The Faithful.
I agree with everything Joshua said. I have almost always taken Steven's side, but I hate the idea Sauron brought the Ring with him to Numenor because it caused Tolkien to say that Sauron's ëala carried the Ring thousands of miles back to Barad-dur. Since he is a Maia, I guess such things are possible, but that means he should be able to keep his ëala form and steal stuff from the Elves and Men or whispered lies to them in darkness to start wars. There are a lot of advantages to being a ghost that can interact with the real world. Joshua is right. Tolkien did not clearly think everything through and got caught with his figurative pants down so he had to scramble to fill the holes he created.
Doesn’t the ring have a lot of Sauron’s power in it so it’s easily accessible to him immediately. Unlike Morgoth’s ring which is a dissemination of power, Sauron’s ring is a concentration of his power. So without the ring Sauron isn’t less powerful, it’s merely harder for him to use that power? But when he has the ring on him, he gets kind of a stat boost because he can more easily use more of his power at once?
& Sauron did this to make himself more “powerful” (access more power easier) so he was powerful enough to dominate the other ring bearers.
So based on this (I may be mistaken) surely Sauron would be more effective at all of his abilities-including mind control-when he has his ring on him.
Good points you bring up on Sauron. He never does any explicit brainwashing aside for the Nazgul, and even they still have some semblance of self control. I think the Rings had more to them contextually, otherwise Tolkein's reasons for Sauron having made them don't hold up. It would make sense in the era they were crafted. During the war of the ring, the one ring isn't even part of Sauron's plan, it's more like a loose end that he's terrified will bite him in the back. His plan had been to simply assemble of a an army and steamroll middle earth with people from the East and South. The discovery of the ring in fact made the plan harder.